Gary C: Hi, I'm Gary and this is episode 191 of EV Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles, and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners. On the show today we'll be looking at electric miles
This season the podcast is sponsored by Zapmap the free to download app and helps EV drivers search plan and pay for their charging. Before we start, I want you to let you know that we're chatting with Jade Edwards from podcast sponsors that map zoom, she runs the insights department, and she'll be telling us all about the work they do with the huge amounts of data that they get from their app.
Our main topic of discussion today is electric miles. As electric vehicles become more and more ubiquitous, there is potential for these cars to have a positive impact on the landscape with regards to charging and energy management. We've already seen the government looking at using demand reduction exercises to remove the need to fire up gas and cold peaker plants over the winter. That's one side of the equation. The other side is the virtual power plant aspect of this. Primarily, this means that with a million or so electric vehicles all linked up to the grid with the appropriate charges. We're in the situation where these batteries can provide an instant power source to the grid to help smooth peaks. We discussed aspects of this when we had Claire Miller from Octopus energy on the show. Now obviously, with reduced peaks, we have less need to fire coal and gas peaker plants, price of electricity is reduced, and household bills drop. All in all, that's a good thing. Now the tech for doing this has been around for a while, although there's been a lack of joined up thinking when it comes to some of the players in the market. like to welcome Arun Anand the founder of Electric Miles to the podcast. Welcome Arun. How are you?
Arun: Yeah, thank you, Gary, thank you for having me.
Gary C: Could you quickly introduce yourself? Tell me a little bit about your background? How did you come to the EV world?
Arun: Hi. So I'm Arun Anand. I'm the founder of electric miles. Excited to be here. Thank you, Gary. So yeah, my background is very much in energy. I worked in energy all my life and be it for a utility like British Gas, or, or major gas oil and gas player like Gazprom. And I was one of the first architects at the Hinkley Point C nuclear power station. And then I set up my own energy consultancy business. But when electric vehicles started to sort of appear, you know, with Tesla, and obviously, a lot of credit goes to Elon, Elon Musk and his vision, I got really excited that wow, this is very interesting, that we got to have batteries on the wheel. And, and it's actually going to change and revolutionise how, how we're going to how we're going to transport from A to B, but also on how we consume consume our energy. Right? So obviously EVs are the future of the sustainable transportation. And, and that's where the idea of Electric Miles came in that okay, I obviously went in bought my first electric car bought myself a secondhand, secondhand Tesla, that's the only thing I could afford. And started driving around and started seeing some of the challenges, especially around charging and charging at the right time. And I was always like, confused. Am I am I using? Am I using the right mix? In terms of the energy mixes? Or? And also, is my car going to be charged the next day? So they range anxiety bit? Right? So that's why I thought wow, I mean, obviously this is back like five years ago, I said there wasn't an app, how about delivering a technology which can automate the whole thing. And, and yeah, that's how I sort of I said, Okay, I'll maybe roll up my sleeves and try to do it myself. So I went into like, two years of kind of r&d, started testing. I obviously connected my home charger at home and into some sort of a tool, which which was bringing in data around when around my preferences, my energy, my my energy tariff, and I connected to the National Grid data. And then then I tried to execute and automate and spit out a schedule basically, which works not only for me as a driver that could work for the grid. And then I was very excited when I was able to automate it and dispatch it to the charger. We weren't on my charger manufacturer at home, we're gonna name them. But I, I was able to, I was able to sort of hack into the, the system in terms of being able to connect my programme to the charger. And then I got connected to to, to the CEO of, of that manufacturer, I called him and I said, Hey, I've got two news, I've got one good news and bad news. I said, well, the bad news is your security isn't great, I was able to get into your charger quite easily. But the good news is I've got a solution, which can make your charges smarter. And then you could lead the way. And he was obviously excited. And we met and in the we were able to obviously work work in the future. So So yeah, I mean, really, that's that's how the journey began. And, and then obviously, ice kind of set up electric miles, and it was able to go and start the fundraising journey.
Gary C: Well, I'm going to come back to fundraising a little bit, because I do want to talk a little bit about how you're funded and how that's going. But explain the product, the concept of electric miles to me, as if I was a five year old. What is it? And what does it specifically do?
Arun: Yeah, so I'll tell you what we do today. And then I'll also explain you what we are gonna do. Because bear in mind, this is still early days in the whole, in the whole sort of transport revolution, and all the EV and all the energy and energy management bit, right. So what we currently do is, if you are an EV driver, you obviously either charge at home and obviously charge outside. But today we focus on people who charges at home. So we they can basically download our app, scan that QR code on the charger. And if it's one of the charger we support and as you know, there is a protocol called OCPP, which, which pretty much 70, 80% of the charges have adopted. And then we will be able to create setup an account under 90 seconds, add the charger at the tariff at the car and be able to smart charge to obviously today's smart charging is a law, UK have been one of the first country to have made made mandated smart charging, because they know the effect of not doing that the effect on the grid is quite severe. Right? So So yeah, before we were able to do that we also have what we also realise is that a lot of the charges were actually not smart, because the whole whole journey, the whole journey the installer needs to take was quite cumbersome. So we actually delivered a bespoke application called installer miles, which is for the installer, and they can help to commission it, apply load management, solar setting and all that and again, complying to the regulation. And, and obviously, they can do that with the click of buttons and can save a lot of time and hassle and make that charger smart. Which which obviously supports the supports the regulation and stuff, right. And then we got kind of a back office platform for support, troubleshooting, you know, you fix the firmware, and all of that. So, combine all of that Gary, what we what we are today doing is kind of the discharge management piece right. So, the smart chargers is actually electric my first step towards creating the business technical and the commercial capability, which is necessary to kind of deliver kind of a sustainable and affordable energy to drivers. Obviously, however, I mean, so far smartcharge What we are seeing is good get commoditized and where we are really trying to focus ourselves is is the aggregation bit right. So if we are able to smartcharge and dispatch it to one driver, we are now growing a portfolio of users. And once we have a significant enough users as as we're going through we could make a tremendous impact on on the aggregation on the grid side. And we are one of the first smart charging company to have secured contracts with the grid. This is just to do the whole demand side response this is with the the local grid the DSO open operators and they they see the power of what we can do right if we are able to then on their instruction be able to move charging away from the period, then then they win. We win. And they're they're happy to pay us for that.
Gary C: Okay, let me jump in there because there's quite a lot to unpack. And I'm going to come back and address the DSO issue in a little while, but at the moment, your app supports the project, EV chargers. And is it the Eevee IQ the Evie chargers as well, yes, water track. Now you started off your your description there by saying that we scan the QR code. And it follows the ocpp standard, therefore it should map to quite a lot the charges. So why is it only those particular two that work with the app at the moment? Yeah,
Arun: I mean, I think this is where what fear also been seen in industry is hardware, the hardware manufacturers are essentially kind of box shifters, right, they want to sell as many hardware as possible. So historically, they've been quite quite close to that way, this is the app they want to go with. But what we started starting to see carry is a lot of these hardware manufacturers are getting more kind of app, and platform agnostic, which I feel is the right way forward. Because end of the day, we don't want consumers to be only be using the app, which comes with the with a charger, for example, right, that might not be the best app. So we are just starting to see that trend. So we are now actually testing and integrating with lot lot other manufacturers are bigger, bigger manufacturers as well. And it's the matter of kind of finding that that commercial aspect that will to market obviously, how are we can deliver that whole charge management piece to them. So So yeah, we are we are in testing with two or three major manufacturers. And we are also looking to sign up a couple of other major manufacturers as well. So that's in the UK, we are very, we we've just signed a deal with one of the French manufacturer and distributor as well. So so so yeah, now I think in the next six to nine months, we are going to see significant more growth into other brands of charges, which, which which will be great. Now, also, one more thing I want to say to you and the listener is that we will also have delivered or extended our capability and technology to talk to the cars as well. So this is like, Hey, if you have a Tesla, BMW, Jaguar, Audi, and five other OEMs will, they will be able to again, download the app, sign up, add that add the car and add the credential of that vehicle. Like for example, which which which EV, do drive carry.
Gary C: I've got the Volkswagen ID.3.
Arun: Okay, ID.3. Yeah, so ID3, I think you got the VW Connect app or the basically the VW app and whatever credential you use there, you will be able to pass that through on our app. And obviously, we don't store any password, and we are able to then establish a connection with the VW cloud. And that means we can then control your car. If the charger is compliant to us. That's great. If it's not, then then we can connect to your car, right? So in that way, we can basically be able to deliver on smart charging. So that's coming as well in the next quarter.
Gary C: What are the benefits to me as a user for this? How do I save money on this?
Arun: As a as a user, right? Because, obviously, we we've got smart tariffs. So people have smart tariffs, where more and more EV drivers are adopting to smarter tariffs where day rate tariff, knight rate tariff, you also have the the Agile time of use tariff, right. So with our app they can, we are able to automate the whole charging experience, right, which means all they do once they set up, they come home, they plug the car in and be automatic, they don't have to do anything. They don't even have to go to the app or set up a schedule. We can dispatch it, we can dispatch to the cheapest, cheapest time of the day. Right? And so so there's two aspects one is the way we smart charges on the off peak, but we can also set up we can also set up the cost that the budget for example that hey, they can say I don't want to spend more than five pounds. And then we our job is to go and find the cheapest five pounds. They could also say that we only want some green energy, and we go and look for that criteria. So, so also, one of the things we are developing is also on on the schedule side that it, it actually you don't, sometimes you don't need 100% of the charge. Because the average, the average drive anybody makes is still 30 to 40 miles. But because we have this range anxiety and we think we just want to fully tank up our car be it 80% or 9% I know a lot of people who do 100% charge. But like, what happens is that the the energy sits in the driveway, and it depletes. So what we're also seeing, we're doing some study on that, that people are actually we're losing a lot of energy just by sitting on the driveway and not unlike the petrol or diesel car where, where it's liquid ified and it stays in the tank, energy or batteries, on the other hand, depletes. So we also want want to create a culture where you are charging to what you need, rather than, than what you want. And I feel if if we really gonna scale and if everybody in our in our in our street could have an EV, we have to be more sustainable. And we really have to actually charge and kind of charge within our means. And that's something we have a we are very passionate about and we feel we feel our our technology will help us so so not only will save money for drivers because they're charging what you really need, but also helping the grid side because they can cope up with the demand much better.
So are you looking purely at supply management side on this so charging one way from the grid to EVs? Or is there an aspect of potentially vehicle to grid? Either at the moment or foreseen in the future?
Yeah, absolutely. So. So if you look at our vision, right, so we talked about the smart charge, which we're currently doing, we started doing the smart aggregate, which is really kind of aggregating a lot of these EVs and then making an impact to the grid. The next aspect of our development is the smart kind of discharge, which which which allows an EV to then power the home. And this is the whole V2X side and the whole V2G V2X We are able to come home and and actually leverage the vehicle to home, which will basically position the smart aggregate as a as a peak avoidance feature within the smart charge right. So this will enable drivers to use the EVs to power their home and avoid the big tariff, right. And then the nest. And obviously, the next destination is the the future state of smart sell, we reckon we as well as the industry will be more ready by 2025 onwards when how far the settlements really start kicking in when the car OEMs and the charger will be, will be both capable of bi directional flow of energy. So So I think this will leverage the whole V2 V2G protocol to launch I feel the most important feature for as much as right. If you look according to BEIS V2G has the potential to reduce the cost of balancing the grid by 2 billion pounds a year. And it could generate up to 6 billion a year in additional revenue for EV owners by 2030. So, obviously, we all get excited by V2G but but what what we don't realise it's a journey, we can't just get up tomorrow and hey, let's do vehicle to grid or, you know, we we have to go to this development pathway which electric miles is on right? Are we able to charge and then aggregate and then do the whole V1G aspect which is the way the first version of V2G which is actually moving the charge away from the peak away from the period the grid wants us to write. And then then naturally you'll you'll kind of progress into into V2G which which really the ability which which gives the ability to use EV to send power to the grid, obviously will work work together with the whole maturity of the virtual power plant VPP market, right as well as so that's what kind of division of electric Miles is, right? Our core value offering become that we will enable people to then interact with their own energy or others energy when it suits them best or benefits them the most. Because because it will be beyond the consumer to manage all this just by themselves even even a clever kind of astute kind of consumer like yourself, Gary would be like, hang on, I don't have that much time to keep on monitoring the prices, or rather want an application to do it for me. And that's what we can really set set out to do.
Gary C: Well, yeah, we had Claire Miller from Octopus energy on Yeah. And she was saying exactly the same thing. You know, the the early adopters, they're quite happy to go in and fiddle around with settings and all that. But once this becomes something that's mass adopted, you really want this to be sort of leave it and let the system sort itself out. You don't want to have to go in and do a lot of physical work yourself to make sure that this is switching on at that time. And it's, it's off at this time, it's picking this rate rather than that rate, it all has to be automatically.
Arun: Absolutely, absolutely. Because that because I think what we need to understand is the landscape of energy is changing, right? Because EV is just a beginning. And obviously, it's getting a lot of a lot of attention. But if you look at some other technology, low cost, low carbon technology, like see got solar panels going to tremendous boost. Now, with a lot of incentive now. We got home batteries, which will be a near future kind of near term possibility wherever your lots and lots and her houses are gonna have home batteries. And then the heat pump and the next pet project is decarbonisation of a heat. And so our houses and our businesses are gonna get bombarded with so much technology, energy technology, which will need orchestration, right? Because at the end of the day, all the energy, you're you're kind of decommissioning, fossil fueled. You're already decommissioned fossil fuel, electricity generators, but we're also now with the ban of ICE vehicle more and more regulation around smart, smart, smart appliances, which put all that energy is going to come from from electricity. And like I said, electricity still a very complex commodity, because you can't store it very cheaply. So that's where the whole demand management and supply management is so fundamental. And if you look at National Grid future energy, the future energy cr- criterias they have quoted that 20% of the energy will come from the people. So where they h- b-, which means that by demand response services, this is very exciting, because we are trying to democratise energy here, right? The whole energy management is getting democratised, which means we'll be able to - the power goes back to the people to make that decision.
Gary C: Yeah, I like that. And that brings me nicely back onto something that you mentioned earlier. And I'm now looping back to which is the DSOs aspect. Now, you mentioned that you're working with the DSOs to help them in their their efforts. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that for me, please? Yeah, sure.
Arun: So obviously, just just a little bit of background on this for your for your for our listeners is a is electric, UK electricity grid is made up of national grid, which is kind of The Godfather it sits on top. And then it has obviously appointed sort of six DSO to cover the whole Great Britain and which kind of are responsible to manage their own local demand. So they obviously then the DSOs split up by substations and stuff and, and and what what DSOs have been given the power by the National Grid and I think that that big change, which came in few years, few years back when you know National Grid was split up into the ESO and the DSO voice to give them the power to manage their own load, and also incentivize their users to who would help them manage the load. So then the load of the DSO, a lot of of aggregation previously used to happen at a National Grid level. Now the new market has opened up where, where aggregation has been accepted for for, for lower or for for smaller assets, like EVs, and like solar can participate in demand side response market. So this has been exciting and, and players like Western Power Distribution and UK Power Network have been forefront of some really innovative products they've launched because they removed one of the barriers towards entry which is previously just really one mega megawatt if any aggregator want to participate, you need one megawatt now, in the car perspective, that's, if you mean that's almost like 200 or 250, vehicles or chargers, all participating at the same time in a given substation. Now, tomorrow might be easy, but today is going to be harder to find that level of participation, engagement and penetration. So what the Sol very smartly done is that they said, You know what, I'll remove the minimum criteria. Okay, all I need is a 10 kilowatt, which is just really two cars or two EVs two chargers participating in a given substation so, so yes, it's a bit of a postcode lottery, where you still need assets in the right postcode, but I think because the threshold is so low, it it kind of made a lot easier to participate. So however, when it has taken time for participant like us, but also for the DSO to get ourselves ready, in terms of the, in terms of the whole technology piece, and the API's and the communication layer. But yeah, but um, with, we've been working very hard for the whole last year to build this, EM smartflex platform, you know, which will really leverage and not only use our charger, so our users, we, and we've, we've, we've now delivered a product where it can even use a third party assets. So late, I think late in December, we did a, you signed a contract with Ampeco, one of the one of the leading kind of platform for the CPO network. Obviously, they originate from Bulgaria and know the the senior executive team really well. And they wanted to participate on this exciting opportunity. They were not, they. Obviously, it's not in their roadmap to build it. So we said, hey, we Okay, obviously, they already have that app there, their platform, we will be not here to sell that we said, okay, just let's just do it through API, which means all their charges and to their platform, will be able to participate, just why an API and that's how we can scale. Because if we just do it through our app, we would need everybody to be using our app. And I didn't want to personally restrict ourselves. So we took that strategic decision that hey, with some, we'll build some API's as well, which means we can, we can really scale this with the end of the day, it's about delivering the volume to the DSO to make a material impact. So we got about 30 megawatts and counting contracts with these DSO and and yeah, in the next few few months, we are hopefully going to make more and more progress towards towards delivering them.
Gary C: Let me play devil's advocate here. So I'm going to ask, what might be an uncomfortable question. I'm looking at your website at the moment. And you've got a section there, which talks about the app for EV drivers. You've then got the section there, which talks about the EV ecosystem, and you're talking about charging manufacturers, installers, fleets, DSOs, etc. Is there a possibility that you're trying to do too much at once? And you might end up not doing any of them particularly well?
Arun: Yeah, I mean, hey, that's a fair question. I mean, some I think investors don't ask us that, but I think smart charging is commoditized right. I mean, for us as a business to stand out just doing smart charging will be hard right and as a startup, we have to be looking to disrupt a place right I mean, we are here to be heard, we are here to shake things up and really challenge, be the underdog. So So again, any any startup company to be successful is like what they bring to the table right? And one of the expertise is the founding team, you know, myself and my other senior management they all come from energy background, and, and, and flexibility in the whole DSO, the National Grid angle is our strength. Right? And, and that's one of the big problems where, like I said, National Grid will have to spend 6 billion pound, if if we don't find a way out by the whole demand side participation, so. So I don't think doing flexibility is any different than smart charging, right? It's kind of the second version, it's smart charging 2.0. Because first, you manage your charge at home, which works for you in terms of your tariff, your cost is reduced. And the next, but again, it's it's about the whole community, it's about the ecosystem. If you want to protect the ecosystem, then that charging session should not only work for the driver, but it should work for the ecosystem, right? That because we are talking about today, it's okay, not a problem, because we are still at about three to 4% EV penetration. But we feel if we believe in this revolution, that that that every street, and every drive is going to have an EV parked up in the in the driveway or on the street or in businesses and fleets. If everybody starts charging, at the same time now at the moment, most smart tariff, the cheap tariff starts from 12.00 12. 30 or one o'clock right. Now, if everybody starts showing Gary at one, we're going to create a new peak to one o'clock will no longer can be the cheapest time because because hey, that means National Grid, and we'll have to get more and more generators running at that time, which is generally supposed to be a low demand time, right? Because people are sleeping. Some people are. Most people are sleeping so. So also what we believe is sort of more dynamic way of more dynamic way of managing this. And again, that can only be done. If you're if you're listening to the grid as well. If you're just doing charging without being oblivious of what's happening at the grid, they know where you can marry them to. And obviously, you'll end up you'll end up with a solution, which can is great today, but it's not for tomorrow. And we are electric miles is about building the future of energy management for tomorrow.
Gary C: Right. Well, that then brings me on to sort of the $64 million question, which is, what's your business model? How are you making money out of this?
Arun: Yeah, so today, we are we are B2B2C. So we sell this whole charge management piece to the manufacturers, the resellers. And also, we starting to approach our leasing company then CPOs as well ChargePoint operators AND, and they pay a fee to use our our charge management which comes with the obviously, the drivers app, there's the installer app, there's the whole admin functionality for support and troubleshooting. So we're taking, we're solving a lot of problem which will stop their growth, because we take care of of the drivers need installer needs and support needs and all of that right. So, so So partnering with us will help you if you are a manufacturer listening to this or CPO listening to this, that, hey, we will help you to scale your business. Because you you want to be just focused on box shifting, while while the charge management may take care of the rest, right. And, and then we are so that's one side of the market. The other side of the market is the whole grid, grid player, we got contracts with the grid, and we are in the business of revenue generation. So we say that, hey, you add more and more charges onto the platform, we'll be able to spit out more and more revenue opportunity, be it with the local grid of dispatching on a contract or be with National Grid participating in the winter trial. Which you know, which is which we which we had this winter and also and then there's some premium services we offer right. So, and again, this is still early days, but one opportunitie's the carbon credit, you know, with if we are able to influence and move more and more charging during due to a low carbon period, then there is opportunity to monetize that. So and we've partnered with some energy companies to, to kind of, to extract some of that value, right. So that's on one side. And then then we are also looking at some charge away function. And where we are able to, if you're charging at home, we are building some features where hey, you will be able to charge outside as well with then with the CPU network and connectivity we have. We we, because charging, for any driver, one of the thing they complain about is just having too many apps, and too much tech, they just want a really simple, easy experience where they can use our app normally when they're home, but when they're outside, and if you're able to keep all the transaction history in one place, and it becomes easier for the expense side as well. You know, if you're a business, you're an expense it. So, so yeah, so money with the B2B side, we're also extending our capability to look at multi dwelling or multi kind of apartment blocks and some of the commercial aspects of the business. Which means, again, they will pay us for using our whole charge management piece. And then we with aggregation, we'll be able to monetize on that with the Grid and with the premium services. So that's how that's how we make money today.
Gary C: Okay, that's fine. So given that you're not doing a lot of that, to a great extent at the moment, because it's still early days. How are you being funded? Currently?
Arun: Yes. So, hey, obviously, if I mean, I would love to build a business as a founder, which is breaking even, quite immediately, right. But the reality is, this business is is, is a tech business, which where we are focused on building some really core core IP, which we have built, right, and we got couple of patent pending, where we reckon with more and more adoption of EVs, it will make, it will disrupt and really bring value, right? So so we've been very focused on the tech, and then the market. And that will give us the users and losses, the revenue, because a lot of tech startup will fail if they just change revenue too early. Which, because because that's just because you're you're trying to innovate in a space, you don't try to hear to sell, sell Apple and buy an Apple from wholesaler and may add your 30% margin and sell it in the market. Right? It's not that traditional business, you're building tech, which is unique, distinct, and it's for the future. Obviously, we still need to grow we have, we have a team of 20 at the moment, so we still need to, you know, pay their salary. And then we have cost and we got tech costs, we've got platform costs, we get together for Christmas. So all of that, then obviously the deficit needs to be needs to be covered by investment. So we've been very lucky, we had some great investors who believed in me, My be me being a founder, my vision, but also the team's capability. And what we are, what we out there to do, right. So we were very, we raised about two three rounds of funding already. And you know, our our last round was a seed round we raised close to a million pound, we have some industry angels like the founder of Uswitch, but also some some some some industrial sort of institutional VCs as well like Blue Lake Blue Lake capital and low carbon Innovation Fund. And so, yeah, we actually looking to raise, we are middle of a raise, again, you know, we try to do a bridge round before our pre series A and, and then and yeah, with with the business strengthening with more contracts and more users and more kind of more talent we found in the team. I think, I think the investors obviously invest on clarity of the vision and the pathway and the pathway which gets cleared up by the team. towards towards, towards a growth, which is not only sustainable, which will actually become profitable. We reckon we will be profitable in the next sort of 18 months to two years. But yeah, at the moment, it's about the grind. It's about can the team continue on and keep having these small wins and have some major wins in the middle like the French contract we signed? And, and that should instil confidence in the investors and and yeah, that that's a really key part key part of my role. And in order to make sure the funding keeps coming in.
Gary C: That seems like an appropriate point to draw this discussion till close. Arun Anand. Thank you very much for your time.
Arun: Thank you, Gary. I really enjoyed the questioning and yeah, looking forward, hopefully see you face to face one day.
Gary C: A couple of takeaways from this. Electric Miles is one example of a growing number of developers who are taking control of both sides of the charging experience, vehicle side and the charger side. With that control, they're able to manage how and when power is passed into and out of car batteries. This has financial benefits to the user, as well as benefits to the grid in that can manage demand and ensure greener energy is being used. The company is still very much a startup and he's looking to get funding to grow. I think they have potential for helping to manage the grid. Let's hope we can make it work. My thanks to Arun for his time.
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And that's the show for today. Hope you enjoyed listening to it. If you want to contact me I can be emailed at EVmusings@gmail.com I'm also on Twitter @MusingsEV. If you want to support the podcast (and newsletter) please consider contributing to becoming an EV Musings Patron. The link is in the show notes. Don’t want to sign up for something on a monthly basis? If you enjoyed this episode why not buy me a coffee? Go to Ko-fi.com/evmusings and you can do just that. Takes Apple Pay, too! I have a couple of ebooks out there if you want something to read on your Kindle. 'So, you've gone electric?' is available on Amazon worldwide for the measly sum of 99p or equivalent and it's a great little introduction to living with an electric car. ‘So you’ve gone renewable’ is also available on Amazon for the same 99p and it covers installing Solar Panels, a storage battery and a heat pump Why not check them both out? Links for everything we've talked about in the podcast today are in the description. If you enjoyed this podcast please subscribe it's available on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Please leave a review, as it helps raise visibility and extend our reach in search engines. If you've reached this part of the podcast and are still listening thank you why not let me know you've got to this point by tweeting me @musingsev with the words I cans ee for miles and miles #ifyouknowyouknow]. Thanks as always to my co founder Simon. Yyou know he's out on his unicycle and if you can ride for miles at a time and up until the battery runs out. But the range issue he has isn't actually related to his batteries. It's his own stamina. He gets tired quite easily, and he needs his electrolytes replenished. Back in the day we bought the luxated to be off again. Bu t with Red Bull monster Gatorade, and all the other drinks to help him stay on top of his game. It's a much more confusing time.
Arun: What we need to understand is the landscape of energy is changing, right.
Gary C: Thanks for listening. Bye