Hey everybody.

This is Dave Salter and you have landed on Connect & Convert the

podcast where we share insider secrets for small business sales success.

I'm joined today, as always by Dennis Collins, our resident

sales training expert.

And Dennis has been a rockstar in this field for nearly four decades.

Dennis, how you doing today?

I'm feeling those four decades today.

Yeah.

Doing good though.

Doing good.

How about you?

Everything good?

Everything's great.

And before we get into today's topic, people by people or do they,

which I have a feeling you and I are gonna disagree on a little bit.

It's possible at least at the outset.

It's possible.

I, I.

I, I think it's remarkable and, 'cause we never talk about this a whole lot.

But you were the chief training officer for your radio group, and you did, you

conducted B two B sales training at least once a week for 20 sales people.

You did about 1500 sessions.

Yeah.

And in addition, you did value added sales training for your V I P clients.

You grew your business from about 3 million annual gross

revenue to over 35 million annual gross revenue when you left.

We did total gross revenue over that time was $300 million.

You guys were the top revenue producers annually in, what I would

consider one of the most competitive markets in the country, Miami.

So kudos to you.

Love bragging on you.

But people thank you.

That's very nice of you.

People need to know how I mean that when I say you're a

rockstar, I'm not just blowing smoke.

You're the real, you're the real deal.

However...

...you had a great team.

We had a great team there, so we were very successful.

People buy people or do they?

I think yes, they do.

And I know you're gonna argue both sides of the story, but I.

I I honestly cannot recall a time where I bought something from a jackass.

Wow.

That's a pretty strong statement.

I, I said I didn't say I didn't, I said I can't recall.

Can't recall...

but it's possible that you may have, right?

It's possible.

Have well, So let me ask you this, point blank.

You already answered it.

Have you ever bought something just because of the salesperson?

Had that salesperson not been your salesperson?

There's a strong chance you might not have bought it.

So this is probably slightly jaded because it was on a recommendation.

But needed tires.

Just got, had been living in this town for maybe a year.

Made a couple of friends, needed new tires on the car.

So one of our friends says, Call Nlo Tires.

I've known Frank forever.

Good guy.

They'll, they'll do right by you.

So I call Frank and Frank's the lead salesperson.

He is probably, one of the principles in the business and we strike up a telephone

conversation and so I felt really good about the guy took the car in and I think.

It took a little while for the sale to take place, but that was because we, we

had a little bit of conversation and I just felt he genuinely wanted to help me.

And making the sale was secondary to him.

And he's been my car, entire guy for 18 years now.

And when I call and that, and my, my oldest daughter lives

on the other side of town.

But for example, when I'll call Frank and say, Hey, I need an

oil change and a tire rotation.

He'll, and he'll say, yep he'll schedule me.

And then he'll say, Hey, by the way, Katie, that's my oldest daughter.

He'd be like, Katie was in the other day for an oil change too.

Her car's in really good shape and that, she made a good purchase.

What a, blah, blah, blah.

So he let me know that, he saw my daughter the other day

and took care of her as well.

Okay.

Anyway you, well, obviously whatever he did on that first encounter has stuck.

Yeah.

Because you, he's your go-to guy and Yes, it was a

referral, but he had to sell himself.

I've gotten a lot of referrals in my life that I just pour it up and threw it away.

'cause we didn't click, but we did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You already answered the other question you've never knowingly that you can

think of, bought something from a jerk.

Right, right.

Knowingly is the key word there.

Would you ever, is there any situation that you could

imagine that you would buy something from somebody you did not like?

I think at this stage of my life, the only scenario I could see

that happening is if it was an emergency.

Yeah.

And I needed a thing or a repair or it's July and it's

98 and my eight, my H-V-A-C just crapped out and it's not repairable.

So I've gotta, I've got four women in the house plus a dog,

and we've gotta get the air going.

I don't have time to.

I go to the journal.

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay.

I have studied this, researched this both personally and through other sources

because it's what they always say.

I.

It's people first in sales, you gotta make that connection.

You gotta make that relationship, or there's no sale.

So I wanted to test that and say, is that long held concept, is that really true?

So I've done some homework on it.

So is it value and product first or is it people first?

That's where the research led me.

In your case,

I would agree with you.

I would agree with you though, on the value proposition.

Absolutely.

I think if a person tries to establish a relationship, and you and I are both at

our stage of life where we can tell is it, can this person do what we need 'em to do

or provide what we need them to provide?

They and I think I've had encounters where I've said, you know what,

you're a really nice guy or gal, but I think I gotta look elsewhere.

Yeah.

That's the way I wanna talk about people.

Buy people.

That's a common phrase.

We've all heard it.

We tend to believe it.

It refers to the idea that customers are more likely to buy

from people they like and trust.

That happens to be scientifically true.

Okay.

But in other words, building a strong relationship with a customer

can be just as important as the product or service being sold.

That's the view of many practitioners in sales.

Customers prioritize the value and product they receive over

the person or brand selling it.

That's the opposite.

Which is it?

Is it the people first or is it the brand and product person?

So while personal connections clearly have enhanced, will enhance

the overall sales experience.

There are those who say it's not the primary factor that everyone thinks it is.

People buy value, not just people.

While it's important to establish trust, yeah.

There's gotta be trust in a rapport, but ultimately their buying decision

is a, based on the pro, the value of the product or service that

meets their needs and actually provides that special value to them.

Does that Yeah.

Make any sense?

It does make sense.

'cause I, because as you were talking I thought of a, for instance,

where I would buy from a jerk.

So and we all probably have that thing, or a couple of things that we have.

So for me I've tried other cell phones Okay.

And I've settled on the iPhone.

That just happens to be the one that suits me best.

So if, and I'm actually getting to the end of the cycle for the one I have.

So if I walked into the, to the store that day to, to get my new iPhone and

the only sales person in there was the jerk I'm gonna put up with them.

'cause I want my iPhone.

And yeah.

The product, the quality, the value to you supersedes the jerkiness.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Now, I would feel much better leaving the store if there was a rapport.

But knowing that I got the iPhone I wanted probably would overcome

any negative feelings I would have about the salesperson.

I think that's pretty normal.

Yeah.

I think at points we overlook that likeness, that, that likeness, that cushy,

pushy, whatever, feeling that we get.

Buy from someone that we don't like because we see a value and a need that

is greater than having the relationship.

Especially on something that, that, may be not a big deal.

It's not a big purchase.

It's not something that really have to trust 'em.

You already trust the product, but let me play the other side.

What's the role of the salesperson in establishing value?

The language of sales is questions.

The methodology of sales is building relationships.

Why?

Because building relationship based on trust and rapport is essential to

creating a positive buying experience.

That's the other side of the coin, right?

The role of a salesperson and value oriented sales to understand what that

customer values, how do you know what someone values until you ask them?

A lot of salespeople, Dave, that I've observed, they just make an

assumption everybody values A, B, and C.

Really?

Are you a mind reader?

You didn't even ask me.

How presumptuous and how stupid and how much you're going to feel

badly when you lose that sale.

Okay.

A deep understanding of customer needs.

A deep connection establishes value.

Salesperson CR can create then a compelling case for why they can

meet the needs of the prospect.

So those are the two sides of the coin.

You, you answered a question I was thinking of is, how

does the salesperson navigate the gap between establishing trust and

rapport and finish, closing the sale?

You gotta be the closer, but you also have to, so how do you play both sides of that?

That's a pretty tough question.

Sure.

Understand.

Understand how much someone trusts you.

You know what?

I wish I could give you three.

There are some things that we're gonna do on a future podcast.

I'm not going to spill the beans here.

But there are ways you could know if somebody trusts you, do they, in the

principles of influence, which we're gonna talk a lot about in future podcasts.

We all say it's important that you like your customer, right?

You like your customer.

You know what's more important?

According to the science and research, it's more important

that the customer likes you.

Okay.

That's a switch, that's a turn, and we'll talk a lot about that.

Okay.

And future podcasts.

So on one hand it's true that people tend to buy from people they like and

trust, establishing that personal connection in some sales is critical.

In fact, without it, you're not going to get the sale.

But if a salesperson could build that rapport, build that trust, and

make them feel comfortable, okay, in that first seven minutes that

we often talk about, they're way more likely to make a purchase.

Okay.

I got a question for you.

So tell me the last time you bought something from a jerk?

I have, I don't think I ever have either.

I won't, I don't.

I won't tolerate 'em.

Okay.

There you go.

I just will want I, it's my money and it's my decision.

I have a lot of options.

I suppose the answer would be if someone came to me, Dave,

with the cure for cancer.

Okay.

God forbid if I had cancer and they said, here's the cure.

I don't care who the salesperson is.

Okay.

Right.

So long as I can, so long as there is truth and value in

the product they're selling.

So in that case, I'd probably deal with anybody, the jerk included.

I don't deal - ask my wife - I do not deal with jerks.

I walk away, I embarrass her at times because I just won't deal with it.

Right.

I shouldn't be that way, should I?

And that, but that's all right, because you

set me up for my next question.

So tell me how liking or likability opens the door to uncovering what

the customer values and needs.

Okay.

Again, it goes back to one of those seven principles of influence, and

that is the principle of liking.

We like to do business with people who are like us, who are similar to us,

who share our traits who act like us.

Their social stylists like us.

We like that.

That's how we're most comfortable.

But what do you do next?

Let's say liking opens the door.

Okay.

That's the key that opens the door.

But there's a couple other questions your customers are asking unconsciously.

They're not stating them, but, Hey, I like you, but you aren't listening to me.

You're not hearing me.

I'm speaking, and you're often never, never land.

Yeah.

I like you, but you didn't really understand and diagnose my problem.

I'm not gonna do business just because I like you.

I, you need to understand my problem.

You aren't offering me something.

A value, something that I value.

You're offering me something that you value or your company

values, not that I value.

So yeah, I like you, but we're not gonna do the business because you

haven't hit my value trigger, right?

Right.

I like you, Dave, but I can't trust you.

I can't trust you to do this job or this service.

I'm not sure you're capable.

So liking may get you in the door.

What do you do after the door is open?

Sure, sure.

So I'm not sure if we've, since we both have never bought from a jerk or can't or

don't knowingly re recall doing so I, it, so it strikes me that the key here is.

There, there's gotta be a balance between likability and establishing

value for your service or product.

So there's gotta be some balance between those two things.

Establishing likability is the key to the throne room, okay?

It gets you in for an audience with the king, okay?

Yeah.

But if you can't make impress the King by listening, by diagnosing, by

understanding, by offering something of value by showing trust, you're not gonna

get the deal, so I think people, by people is probably true to a point and not true

if you don't follow up and do the other things you need to do to create the value.

So I know when you're, when you are coaching and training folks you

go out on a lot of calls with people, you do a lot of observation absolutely.

Tell, tell me about maybe your best experience with a salesperson.

My best experience, for instance and it, and in accomplishing what we're talking

about today, establishing likability, esta, developing value, et cetera.

I particularly have a high regard for salespeople

who get building rapport.

We have a thing that we also teach called strategy rapport.

Most people, when I say that to them, they've never heard of strategy rapport.

It's a tangent off of the concept of rapport.

It still requires empathy.

It requires understanding another person's point of view, another person's

process, but it's called strategy rapport because you're unveiling

the strategy that they're gonna use to make that particular purchase.

So I love a salesperson who starts with that, who starts with what

we call a sales call agenda.

Here's what we're gonna do today, Dave.

There are five things on my list.

A, B, C, D, E does that capture everything for you?

Do you would like, would you like to add anything?

Okay.

You add six one.

So those are the six things we're gonna do today.

Does that sound fair to you?

I like a salesperson who sets the table, who sets the agenda.

I like a salesperson who involves himself in, if not actual

rapport, strategy rapport.

so I think what we've

come to the conclusion of is that you can be both likable and create value.

You can do both.

But you

gotta have..

But not necessarily.

It's not necessarily done every time.

That is correct.

We still have a lot of salespeople out there that you nor I would buy from.

That's okay.

That's a discussion.

That's a discussion for another time.

So Dennis, thanks for your wisdom and insight.

I appreciate it.

That's a wrap on another edition of Connect & Convert.

The podcast that lets you behind the curtain with insider strategies

for small business sales success.

This is Dave Salter with Dennis Collins, and we'll see you next time.