Dr Marianne Trent (00:00):

What if your brain could learn from its own activity, not through talking, not through medication, but through real-time feedback about what it's actually doing? It sounds futuristic, but it's a technique called neurofeedback, and it's already being used to support people experiencing difficulties with anxiety, attention, trauma, sleep, and more. In this episode, counselling psychologist and ILF neurofeedback practitioner, Dr. Madeleine Ronetree, joins me as we explore what neurofeedback actually is, what the evidence says, and whether in future it could play a bigger role in mental healthcare and treatment. Hope you find it so useful. Hi, welcome along to Psychology Actually. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. And today I am joined by Dr. Madeleine Ronetree, a qualified counselling psychologist. Hi, Madeleine. Hi. So pleased to have you here, and I'm so excited as well because today we're talking about something called neurofeedback, which is something that not that many people have heard of unless they have read the Bethel van der Kolk, The Body Keeps the Scorebook, which is where both you and I first heard about this from.

(01:20):

I feel like it's the one that got away for me and it's the pandemic that got in the way of my training, but you have done it. You are a neurofeedback practitioner. Could you tell our audience what neurofeedback is?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (01:34):

So neurofeedback is a type of biofeedback. So you might have Fitbits or your aura ring that's picking up your temperature, your heart rate. Neurofeedback is picking up signals from your brain and feeding that back to you so you have what's almost subconsciously really, because your brain is feeding back rather than your sort of conscious self. But it's really a sensory feedback on the brainwaves that are going through your mind.

Dr Marianne Trent (02:03):

Amazing. And why does that matter and how does that help?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (02:06):

Yeah, it's a really good question. So if we think about when we obviously wake and sleep, we have different states of alertness. And so in an ideal world, we want to be alert, but not hypervigilant. We want to be relaxed, but not disengaged or overly sort of tense and emotionally responsible or responsive so we're not sort of shut down. And in order to be in these states, we have different brainwaves. So there's different frequencies for different brainwaves that when we're awake, for example, we might have theatre waves just daydreaming and hanging out in our heads. When we're sleeping, we have predominantly delta brainwaves. When we are sort of focused, we have beta and they have different frequencies. So these are the different waves that kind of go through our brains in different states of wakefulness, if you will. When we're particularly anxious and stressed out, we might have high beta waves.

(03:11):

So these are what we call frequency bands, if you will, with these different frequencies. So that kind of tells us whether we're awake or asleep in broad terms. Underneath these bands is an infralow frequency. It's a really slow frequency that is almost like the tidal wave, if you will, how the undulations of the tide is as opposed to each wave, which might be the bands. When we think about the optimal state of being, want to be alert, we want to be awake. We don't want to be hypervigilant. We want to have this sort of present relaxed state, but ready to spring into action if we need to be. And our nervous system is the driving system, if you will, of all of that. So whether we are just sort of chilling out and having a cup of tea, but not so chill that if there's something that we need to attend to like an emergency, that we are not disengaged from that.

(04:11):

We don't want to be so vigilant that we can't relax either. Our nervous system is the system that regulates all of that. And so if our nervous system is out of sync, we will be stuck in different brain states. And so if our brain can have a feedback information about how it's doing, it can better regulate itself. So I don't know if you've done any dancing or yoga or I don't know, even going to the gym generally, you'll see there's always mirrors. There's mirrors everywhere in these sorts of scenarios. Why? So that you can get feedback on your movements. Am I doing this movement correctly? Am I stretching properly? Because if you don't get the feedback, how are you supposed to know to correct yourself? And this is exactly the same. So you are feeding back to your brain its own brainwaves so that it can regulate itself.

(05:05):

We have this propensity to fix, to get into equilibrium, to get back into harmony and back into sync because we want to operate functionally, optimally. There's no good being stuck in any of these systems. So if our brains can get some information about how it's doing, it can then change that.

Dr Marianne Trent (05:24):

That's so interesting. And yeah, it's reminded me of the Seven Fisher book I read on neurofeedback. And I just found it all so fascinating. And I think I'm right in saying that she was talking about different brainwaves. So I think delta, beta, theta, that kind of thing. And also made me think that I'm speaking to you at the moment with a broken hand, which I did watch happen via a mirror because I was at the gym when I did it. But can we have a little bit of a look at what might've been going on with my brain since then? So I did this on a Tuesday and today is the following Monday, so almost a week later. I have noticed that I am just more exhausted and I've got less bandwidth for things. I've had to reprioritize things. Can we make sense of what's been going on with my brain since that trauma and since the pain?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (06:19):

Yeah, absolutely. So I would say that to look at this through a neurofeedback lens, we can see that our nervous systems get impacted by stress. So a physical trauma will be stressful. The pain will presumably affect your sleep, which will then also affect your nervous system and how it operates. And so then we can see how the nervous system kind of gets out of sync, gets out of kilter. And sometimes it's difficult to get back. So if your nervous system was a little bit more sticky, say, it will take time for it to get back to equilibrium, but that's what healing is. Healing is we have this natural propensity to want to heal and get back to equilibrium. And so your body is obviously producing extra red blood cells and white blood cells to kind of fix the trauma in your hand. The pain is there to tell you what not to do.

(07:22):

Don't overwork it so otherwise I can't heal. So all of that is working perfectly, but it's also taking from your bandwidth. I suppose as long as it's within a window of what you might call reasonable, yeah, it's reasonable to imagine that you're feeling a little bit tired and a little bit exhausted and maybe a bit frustrated because you can't do the things that you want to do and you have to rearrange stuff. Then you would sort of think about, I guess we could maybe use the window of tolerance type of analogy here that this is to be expected. This understandable. But let's say maybe three weeks later you're still feeling this and you're still not able to, and there's still frustration. Well, maybe we could then start thinking about maybe the nervous system is stuck in some ways that it needs to be re-regulated. And so from a neurofeedback perspective, it can actually help with pain.

(08:11):

It can help with feeling a sense of calm and reduce the stress mechanisms that are associated with maybe being tense and in discomfort.

Dr Marianne Trent (08:23):

So interesting. Thank you. I will keep a mindful watch on that. I think it's going to be fine. I'm already in less pain, so I think it's going to be fine. And generally speaking, what sort of presentations can neurofeedback help people to achieve changes in?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (08:41):

The interesting thing I think with neurofeedback and so what I work with is infralow neurofeedback, which is slightly different to the bands that you were talking about, the Alpha Delta Theta. So those are EEG bands that you can work on. I work on the lower frequency, the infralow frequency neurofeedback, which is this wave, this slow kind of... It's almost like the foundation. We sort of talk about the architecture of your nervous system in a way. So once you regulate that and get that where the arousal system is, let's call it imbalance, instabilities are also balanced out, then it makes sense to add the other band trainings on top of that. So what that means is that we address a broad range of experiences and don't really focus on diagnostics. So if we were to use diagnostics, say depression or anxiety, those are the sorts of things that neurofeedback can help with.

(09:43):

So autism, ADHD, post-traumatic stress disorder, sleep issues, migraines and headaches, ticks, vertigo, perimenopausal symptoms. So it's because there's downstream effects of regulating a whole network. And so then it's an interesting way of working because when I work with clients, we have this, it's 150 symptom checklist of all of the things that you might experience. You rate them on a scale from one to 10. How much am I marked by various? And you go through psychological somatic...

(10:30):

Well, just everything really you can think of from sleep issues to your appetite to everything. And so then you focus on, because that's the way we work around. Then you focus on the ones that are scoring the highest because these are the things you're going to be impacted by the most. The variability is huge. So I could have sleep issues, food difficulties, mood issues and distractability. So it's a variety of things, which doesn't really necessarily fall under a particular diagnostic. Yet with the neurofeedback, we're having some ideas around, okay, this might be an issue with instability. Say there's instability in my system that my system struggles to toggle easily back and forwards to get to equilibrium. Or it could be an arousal issue that I have too much of something or too little of something. So if I have an over-arousal system, then it's anxiety, panic attacks, those sorts of things, insomnia, racing thoughts, that's sort of an over-arousal.

(11:46):

So then I'm having some ideas around, okay, what is it that the nervous system needs? It needs to have a sort of a calmer or it could be under arousal. So you have low mood, lethargy, fatigue, brain fog, these sorts of things. So that's a low arousal. So it's kind of like an arousal and instability question that we target from an ILF neurofeedback perspective. The downstream effects of that is these huge broad range of difficulties, I guess, that people experience.

Dr Marianne Trent (12:18):

I see. I know when I was reading the literature it's about, for example, complex trauma and you've got an over arousal because the body and the mind is constantly trying to work out why it's not safe or to feel safe or to manipulate that environment and they might be more anxious, they might be lower in mood. And so how might you expect, I don't know, I don't know how many sessions you'd typically have for somebody with a complex trauma background, but how might that person's presentation change over time if they were treated with neurofeedback?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (12:53):

So with PTSD, for example, you would, this is the thing, that's a diagnostic. So from a neurofeedback perspective, you would ask other questions. I suppose you'd do this anyway within trauma work. You'd want to have the whole biopsychosocial kind of template to ask about. But you'd also ask specifically which I suppose... Let me show you. You have sensors. I'm going to deviate slightly. You have sensors that will pick up that you put on different places. So with infralow frequency, you have four sensors that you sort of place, but two of them always get placed in different places depending on what it is that you want to work with. So you'd ask a whole bunch of questions in terms of figuring out where to start. Is it instability? Do I want to stabilise the system? So headaches, seizures, flashbacks, dissociation is an instability issue say. If for example, somebody with PTSD has flashbacks, this would be what we call a T3 T4 instability issue.

(14:08):

So I put a placement just above my ears on the left and the right-hand side. If it's more anxiety and panic and intrusive thought say, then I would want to lower the arousal where then I'd put the placements at the back on the right-hand side and just above the right ear. So those are the two main placements that you would start to stabilise and regulate the nervous system. And so again, it depends on what the client is coming with in terms of what is the most significant difficulty or experience that they're having. I suppose the thing with diagnostics is it kind of gives you a rough idea about where in the department store that you're going to go shopping in a way. If it's depression, it's more likely to be low arousal, brain fog, low motivation. So then you have some ideas about the protocols where you want to place them.

(15:05):

If it's anxiety, you want to figure out is a rumination overthinking OCD-like or is it more visceral in the body panic aversions? So again, it will tell you whether you want to... Is it instability or an arousal

Dr Marianne Trent (15:24):

Question? I see. And so these are electrodes that get placed actually onto the scalp or the forehead. And I think I might saying that you almost like playing games. So I think I remember there was one case where you've got two rockets and you need to think the rocket's taking off. Is that right? How does it work?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (15:48):

So those are the band frequencies. So the Seaburn book doesn't talk about INF neurofeedback. So the band frequency, so the typical ones that you would train are alpha theta, alpha beta. And they can work on operant conditioning. So you have some kind of a reward, so like a rocket that takes off or what have you. With infralow frequency, the frequency is so slow. There's no kind of reward for the brain necessarily. And so what the feedback looks like, depending on the programme that you're using, it could be... Well, there's three ways of getting the feedback. So visually, so you might be looking at a screen and the screen, depending on what you're using, you could use, for example, a YouTube. So you can add YouTube onto the system and then it would increase or decrease in size, for example. So that, what would you call that?

(16:53):

The frequency by which it decreases and increases is kind of like a pulse, I suppose. And that pulse is letting the brain know that this is what your frequency is doing. This what your brain is doing at these particular electrode placements. Now nothing going into the brain. A lot of people worry about something's happening to them because electrodes sound quite... So I call them sensors because that's all they're doing. They're just picking up information and then giving it back to you. Bit like an aura ring or a Fitbit. Nothing's happening to you. All it is your brain realising that this pattern that is being shown to me is mine. So I think an example could be you and I might have a conversation in a networking event and then you'll hear your name and you'll sort of turn, you'll react to that. You're not talking to me listening purposely out for your name being called.

(17:45):

Your brain is doing that. Our brains scan for patterns the whole time. If I was to say Mary Mary had a little, your brain is instantly going to go lamb, right?Because that's the pattern it's learned. So our brains are constantly looking for patterns. So now you are looking at this screen and you have headphones on, so you're also getting auditory information. And I also have a tactile ones. It's like a little box that sort of vibrates. So I've got three methods by which my brain can then give me feedback on its rhythms. And so that's what it's doing is noticing these patterns and thinking, oh gosh, this is me, this is me. And then, hang on a second, this doesn't feel really nice. And so then it regulates itself. It's really clever.

Dr Marianne Trent (18:28):

Yeah, it is. And it's also a lot to almost get your head around as well, isn't it? If someone's never heard of this.

Dr Madeleine Roantree (18:38):

It's very passive. As a therapist, you're asking questions and you're noticing micro movements in the face and you're listening out for stuff that's not said and you're really active. But here you're just watching something and listening to something. And then as a practitioner, I'm sort of asking my clients, how does it feel on the body? How are you feeling? And kind of using their feedback to inform me on whether we're on the right track or not.

Dr Marianne Trent (19:05):

Hi there, only me. I'm just popping in here to let you have some exciting news because I really do believe that conversations about neurofeedback are so long overdue. If like me, you are fascinated by how neurofeedback can transform mental health, then you are listening to the right conversation. After filming finished, I contacted Bee Medic and I'm delighted to say not only are they sponsoring this episode, they're also offering you an exclusive discount code. If you'd like to bring the benefits of ILF neurofeedback to your clients, then Bee Medic offers complete medical systems and accredited training to support your journey. As a global supplier of medical equipment and accessories for mental health specialists, eMedic offers reliable, high quality and modular systems allowing you to start small, acquiring only what you need and then expanding at any time. If you are a mental health professional looking to elevate your practise with this evidence-based method, then Bee Medic offers basic accredited courses all over the UK and internationally too.

(20:09):

Their onsite courses even offer you valuable CPD points, giving you the practical skills, technical support, and clinically supervised training to get started right away. Discover their upcoming course dates and technologies by visiting their website Bee Medic.com. That's www.beemedic.com or click the link in my show notes. And you can also save 20% with my exclusive code actually20 A-C-T-U-A-L-L-Y 20. And that is valid on all basic courses in the UK during 2026. Hurry because the code is valid until the 1st of November 2026. Now let's get back to my chat with Dr. Madeleine so you can fall even deeper in love with ILF neurofeedback. Okay. So for example, autistic people, people with an ADHD diagnosis, what kind of changes might they see and is it okay that we're making those changes or helping people to make those changes?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (21:19):

So certainly from social psychiatry back in the day when I worked in that, we always talked about whether symptoms were bothersome. So the example would be OCD, for example. So let's say I have OCD and I check my door handle five times every morning before I leave. Now, does that bother me? No. Is it an issue? No. Do I need to have therapy for it? No. Or as my CBT trainer once said, "I know when I'm stressed, I'm going to be really pissed off if my husband hasn't put his cup away in the dishwasher." So do I want to have therapy about that? No, because I know what it's all about. So it's kind of like the same sort of thing. Are you bothered by these things? So my son, for example, he's seven and school reports came back with, "He doesn't listen. He's easily distractable.

(22:15):

He keeps playing with his other friends. And this is not unusual for us, no big news for us because it's like for the umpteenth time, can you do X?" And even in swimming, you'd see him doing all sorts of other things rather than listening to the instructor. So clearly an inatention issue. And so I tried the infralo neurofeedback on him in a half term and you're always sort of, "Is it neurofeedback or is it placebo? Is it just because we are doing this? " And I said to my husband, "Well, the proof will be in the pudding if the school recognises anything." And sure enough, I think two weeks later we have a parent meeting and the teacher goes quite spontaneously, "It's really interesting since the half term, he's been so good." And you're just like, "Well, okay, fine." And I was really curious, like me, the scientist in me was kind of like so...

(23:12):

Because they have these tracker systems. If they misbehave or do something, they go on tracker and there's a warning system. And she goes, "He hasn't been on tracker. He hasn't been on tracker all week." And I'm like, "Oh, so how often would be on tracker before half term?" And she goes, "Oh, about four or five times a week." And now she goes, "Oh, maybe once or twice." I'm like, "Okay, right, we've got hard data here that suggests there's something that's changing." And it's kind of like blind control in a way because she doesn't know what we've been doing. So you could say, "Well, it's good to be distractable if you are looking out for danger, say. But if you're in a school environment and need to concentrate and listen to what the teacher's say, well, then that's obviously not a really productive position to be in.

(23:58):

" And plus the poor kid, he's getting an 80% reduction in being told off really. So school is now going to be a much nicer experience. And at home it's now, can you get ready for school? And he's sandwiched in hand that he's made by himself with clothing and book bag ready and shoes. And I'm like, "Who are you? " So massive changes. It's really impressive.

Dr Marianne Trent (24:23):

Yeah, it sounds it. I think I could go on that for myself. I think my husband would like me to do it as well. Yeah. Is there much emerging evidence based? So of course when I was in the NHS, I said, "Oh, can you pay for me to be trained in this? " And they were like, "No." So I was going to be self-funding, but is there any emerging staff? Is it ever going to end up on the NICE guidance? Could you imagine?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (24:48):

Definitely, definitely. I think it's headed in that direction. There was a massive study, a literature review that came out in 2022 that found... They found 18 studies that they could use basically out of I think 36 or about 40 pieces of work that they had identified for infurlo neurofeedback specifically. But they'd also demonstrated almost an exponential growth in research around the area since I think the last 20 years. I mean, neurofeedback has been around for a very long time. Infurlo has been around for a shorter amount of time. So the active treatment group, I suppose they range. Well, a lot of the studies are single case studies. And I think one or two of the studies had maybe 40 participants in them and maybe half of those were control groups. So the main criticism is we don't have big enough controls. Another difficulty I think is that it's very individualised.

(25:52):

Our nervous systems are different depending on what environment we've grown up in. You've just broken your hand, say, so maybe your nervous system is out of kink a little bit. And so it's quite individualised in terms of the placements, whether it's over the ears or behind the head or wherever we put these placements, which makes it difficult to standardise as terms of protocols. So those are the main criticisms of it. That said, there's just recently, I think it was this year, there was an MFRI study published with single ILF sessions and neurological changes already in a single session. So there's definitely promising research that's coming out and more people are... If you think about medicine, it takes decades for even in, I think the average age in medical school for some finding in the medical field, it takes 17 years on average for it to reach medical school to be taught to our GPs or whoever.

(26:57):

So in one way, it's the brand new thing even though it's decades old, but it's definitely gaining traction. And the changes that I've seen is I sometimes tell myself, why is this not more widely available? It's that transformative I find.

Dr Marianne Trent (27:15):

Since Dr. Madeleine and I chatted, I had a little dive into the research for neurofeedback. And I also got in contact with Bee Medic who gave me a few more examples of relevant research. I know that if you're a fan of the show, you also care about research. So since Dr. Madeleine and I chatted, I have had a little look into the evidence base even more and I've chatted with Bee Medic as well. The neurophysiological effects of neurofeedback are actually now coming together as a pretty solid evidence base. There's also the Landmark FMRI study, which was published in the journal Neuro Image and looking at the kind of connections in the brain as a result of ILF neurofeedback. All of the details for this are in the show notes and in the description for the video. Hope that you also think this really matters and it's making you even more excited.

(28:04):

Now back to Dr. Madeleine and myself.

Dr Madeleine Roantree (28:07):

It's such a beautiful bolt-on to therapy. So I'm beginning to see this as sort of neurofeedback is working on the hardware and therapy works on the software. We're updating our thoughts and our belief systems, but the neurofeedback just gets us over the edge in terms of the finish line with our therapeutic goals. It's really fascinating.

Dr Marianne Trent (28:30):

It's like the treatment that reaches parts of the brain and the presentation that other therapies can't, it sounds like.

Dr Madeleine Roantree (28:38):

Yeah, absolutely. 100%.

Dr Marianne Trent (28:41):

And in terms of medication can have side effects, are there any risks to this?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (28:47):

That's a good question. So yes and no. So it's not side effects as such, it's just the effect of training a system, nervous system. So if you are already hypervigilant, say, and you have frequency that's a bit too high, you might aggravate that or you might get a little bit of a headache because the nervous system is kind of, "Ooh, I don't like this. " So it will react. This is the way it's telling you, "I don't like what I'm seeing. I need you to change the frequency." It's short-lived though, right? Because a single session maybe lasts up to about 48 hours or something like this, which is also the downside of neurofeedback in some ways, I guess, is you need quite a few sessions. The recommended is a minimum of 20 sessions at least once a week, ideally two to three times a week.

(29:38):

Again, depending on how well you respond or how sensitive you are to the feedback. If you have an adverse effect, it would be short-lived and you can also... So let's say if I have a client that gets a headache in the session, I can just change the placement and then I stop the headache. I've had people almost It's migraine, onset migraine, and then we go in, put our instabilities over the ears, the left and the right ear, and then migraine gone to the point where, like I said, after every session you need to check in. And so here I am checking in a little bit earlier with this client saying, "How's the migraine?" And they go, "Oh, I've completely forgotten about it. " So it can really -

Dr Marianne Trent (30:25):

Yeah. I mean, that's what got us talking about neurofeedback in the DMs, because I'd shared that my son has migraines and he's nine and he's had them for years. And you're like, "Have you ever tried neurofeedback?" And I was like, "Well, no, I haven't." And then you were like, "Well, I'm trained in it. " So yeah, I guess the disadvantage to this is that because it's not really available on the NHS currently is that if you're needing multiple sessions a week or certainly weekly, the cost can stack up, can't it?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (30:55):

I have found that I, as a private practitioner in own therapy, I can't remember which insurance company it is now, but they have allowed the neurofeedback simply because it was the last port of call. So I had a particular patient where done loads of therapy, done all the medication, quote unquote, none of it worked. Let's try neurofeedback. And then the insurance company goes fine. So something is happening in terms of the recognition of this.

Dr Marianne Trent (31:23):

Okay. And obviously not to share any personal details of that client, but is that making progress? Is it making changes for that client?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (31:32):

Yeah. I don't know if I can share. I don't think they would mind. There's an anger and difficulty almost coming in with a black eye from a road rage incident and a few weeks later coming back into therapy saying, "Oh, there was an incident, but I wasn't bothered."

Dr Marianne Trent (31:53):

And some of the literature I've been reading was kind of using neurofeedback post-traumatic brain injury and how you could really help the brain to repair itself in a way that just hasn't been possible with kind of rehab work. And it's just fascinating stuff.

Dr Madeleine Roantree (32:09):

It really is fascinating. And when you read this list of things that it can help with, you are like, "Ooh, ooh." And when I did the training, I'm like, "Oh, really? Night sweats?" I'm in sort of perimenopause state, right? Night sweats and disturbed sleep and brain fog. And it seriously does. So for me, I'm dyslexic and I think I'm neuro spicy in the sense that tabs open and a little bit of distractibility. I know my placements now. If I'm feeling a little bit demotivated, a little bit flat, I've historically been prone to depression. I put on my antidepressant placement and the next day I'm good again. It's nuts. It's almost, again, I sometimes sort of... Is this placebo or is this kind of like... But it just does something. This is the question though. Does it bother you? Is it an issue? Whereas if, let's say I can't organise myself and I'm just inundated with sensory information or visual stimuli coming at me, then...

(33:18):

So I've obviously, my whole family, bless them, have been through the whole neurofeedback treadmill. And my husband was like, "Well, I'm fine. I don't really need anything. But well, if there was anything I could maybe do with a bit of better focus, fine." So we train on that.

(33:35):

I'm sure he doesn't mind me sharing the story. He, amongst other things, does printing. So printing press, the etching, this is very old technology where you put pieces of paper through a press to print fine art. And so I guess that could be a slightly mundane job. And he said, "Oh, I leant straight into this. " Normally I'd be like, "Right, when can I finish this job so I can get onto the next one?" And he was like, "I felt almost serene and calm doing this, " which was a new experience for him. So that was quite interesting. So yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (34:10):

How nice. My husband would say, "Can you keep the whole table clutter-free and can you keep your side of the bedroom a little bit tidier?" It's not awful, but yeah, that's the recurrent themes from our marriage that he would change in a heartbeat. It's been so interesting chatting with you, and this hasn't done anything for dissuading me for learning more about this. So thank you. This really does feel like the one that got away. I was almost about to book onto training and then the pandemic unfolded and then I've gone online only. But thank you. Where can people learn more about you and your work, Madeleine?

Dr Madeleine Roantree (34:49):

So I've just started a clinic in London called the London Neurofeedback Clinic. So that's it, thelondonneurofeedbackclinic.com. It's based in East London. There is also a directory on the Bee Medic.com website where you can find neurofeedback practitioners across the world. So if you're not in London, maybe take a look at them and they will be practitioners that do more than ILF as well. So they'll do frequency band training as well. So that will be my next training I think is some frequency band training.

Dr Marianne Trent (35:18):

Amazing. Thank you so much for your time in speaking with us.

Dr Madeleine Roantree (35:22):

Thank you for having me on and talking about this. It's so exciting.

Dr Marianne Trent (35:25):

Yeah. I'm excited too. Thank you, Madeleine. Thank you so much for being here as a listener, as a watcher. If you've listened this far and you're not already following the show wherever you listen to your MP3 podcasts, why not do me a little favour and click follow? And likewise on YouTube, if you're not already a subscriber, please do. Consider subscribing and clicking that notification bell so that you never miss another episode. I definitely believe that our bandwidth can be affected by all sorts of things and grief is a big one. If you are grieving or you know somebody who is that absolutely can diminish our capacity, I think you might well find the Grief Collective book really helpful. If you've enjoyed this episode and you'd like to learn a little bit more about the history of traumatic brain injuries, there's a really great episode on Phineas Gauge and what that taught us as a profession about traumatic brain injury.

(36:20):

That's on screen for you now or linked in the show notes.