Hello, and welcome to this episode. I'm Angeline Corvaglia. And today, I'm really happy to be here talking to Evelyn Kasina, a digital learning and trust and safety leader and founder and CEO of Eveminet Communication Solutions Ltd. in Kenya. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Could you tell us more about the work you do?

Thank you so much for having me, equally excited that I get to share what we do in Kenya in terms of trust and safety and online training. Supporting [00:00:30] families and children on online safety. So, as you have rightfully introduced me, I am the founder of Eveminet and, as a company, we work with children from the age of 5 all the way to young adults, age of 24.

Generally giving them skills, tools, and information to push responsibility to them to be safe online. Because, ultimately, it is their responsibility. But then, because we do acknowledge that children don't live in a vacuum. [00:01:00] We engage the whole ecosystem of the child. Amazing. Starting from the home, we extend it to schools.

So in school, we will teach them as children, but as well teaching the academic staff and non academic staff, because they do interact with children and technology. Then we look at how their, um, their society is framed. They do have a lot of what now I call hybrid society because even if you think about a child playing outside kicking a ball. [00:01:30] There is a screen somewhere where when they're tired, they'll still go on and play Roblux. So their society has become very hybrid and then other than that we work with government.

We work with big tech companies like I am currently working with TikTok, Meta and Google in Sub-Saharan Africa in terms of safety. And so making sure that when our young people are interacting with these platforms, they do understand what it entails for them. First to be responsible digital [00:02:00] citizens, but also how to be safe while they're on those platforms.

So when we look at that whole ecosystem, we are really playing with every participant who has a direct or indirect seed to a child.

I think that's actually the perfect approach and one that's actually really hard to achieve, I think, because I've heard often from many people and experienced myself, there are certain, I would say, limitations that certain parts of the ecosystem don't appreciate the urgency, maybe. [00:02:30] Are there certain elements where you say, I don't know, government or parents or schools where they feel more urgency, and they kind of help each other to understand the importance?

Absolutely. I believe the urgency comes from educational institutions, largely because they deal with huge numbers of students and learners, and also noting the fact that everybody comes with their own predefined settings and [00:03:00] exposures to technology. Then think around the way government has formed legislation. It's normally not very easy as technology is evolving for governments to keep up with updating or changing legislation. So you find some laws that we have, some are dated. And when we are engaging with, you know, government terms of policy, we would always keep encouraging them, you know, can we create best practices that can be cascaded down to the users?

Because we do acknowledge that the [00:03:30] journey to change or amend policies and legislation can take a while and technology does not wait for that while. So the push and pull we have with government is, you know, yes, the infrastructure is there. We have some laws that are really dated, but making them understand that technology is there.

Overworking and emerging threats, especially towards children, also we can't keep up with them. Sometimes we feel like we are gasping for air. I always say maybe something has happened in a positive way [00:04:00] in terms of maybe government has done a good legislation and something is working positively for children, but then just after two minutes of breathing fresh air, then there is an emerging threat.

Like now we have AI, which is now bringing even new Emerging Threats. Then we're like, okay, we don't have legislation around AI. And everybody's like, we're playing catch up. Yeah. Parents as well. I call Kenyan parents firefighters because I think every one of us has a fire extinguisher on our back.

Rightfully so, because first [00:04:30] we have other things to do. Like, you know, we are working, we are parenting and, you know, life sometimes can become a little bit stressful. And then we find ourselves in a space where children know more than us. They're on platforms we don't know, even, we don't know the platforms even exist.

But our children are so immersed into them, and we don't know how to support them. So you find, when a parent is actually even coming to us, they're like, you know, I found my child doing ABCD, but I didn't even know this website exists. [00:05:00] I don't know how this app works. But at that point, they are putting out a fire because an incident has already happened.

And I find that very stressful for parents as well. And because we, we want the best for our children, even how we react towards supporting them sometimes comes out the wrong way. So the child starts feeling like, these people don't understand. These people are so old. They want to take away the things that we are using in terms of entertainment.

Or communication, and they don't want to listen to us because either we are yelling, either we are [00:05:30] yanking machines out, we are shutting down the internet. It's, it's quite crazy. I, I find when we are interacting with parents, there's a lot of awareness we need to create before we start building capacity because if we don't come from a point of they need to understand where the child is coming from, then we will always be fighting. The pushback will be too much.

I fully agree. And this is one thing I think about a lot, actually, across all geographies. I do want to talk a little bit about the unique Kenyan [00:06:00] perspective a little bit later, but this is really universal. There's the digital natives. And non digital native parents, if they take the traditional ways of parenting and controlling, I feel are just bound to lose because, as you say, the kids are so much faster.

They help each other. I've even been caring really deeply about the risks about AI chatbots. And even I was completely taken [00:06:30] aback around a week ago when I saw how far, how deep it already is. I mean, the average parent is, is lost. I mean, there's, they have no chance, as you say, as a firefighter. I really love that you're so aware of this, so you obviously are doing a great job, so how are you dealing with that? Like, parenting digital natives, how are you helping parents understand and getting parents and kids to work together?

Well, it's not an easy thing for me to do. I prefer [00:07:00] training, uh, young people more than I, I dread training parents because as a parent myself, I do acknowledge where the gaps are. And I acknowledge also the fact that we can't always be with our children, and I think when I think about that critically, I start feeling defeated. And I feel a sense of hopelessness for the ones who don't even have any technology or tech backgrounds, or even just those acquired skills, right?

Because they're those parents who really don't [00:07:30] have any technology acquired skill even with their own interactions. So I do feel for them because they have this sense of hopelessness. And sometimes when they come to our office, they'll come and say, you just take the child and talk to them, then bring them back when they have reformed.

And I’m like it's not that easy. It really isn't that easy. So what I have done over, over time, because we've been in existence for a little over 12 years. As a parent, I constantly kept asking myself, what [00:08:00] are some of the things that I know my child cannot be taught outside the house? And they're very fundamental things.

Manners, values, integrity, and I have to teach those things which are so behind the scene. In the house, one by modeling, for instance, in class, I train young people around creating tech-free zones, for instance, and I say one fundamental place is the toilet. I have to be the parent who is not going to the bathroom with my gadgets because I model that to my [00:08:30] children, and I need to do it, especially when even those children are not at home, right, because that is where integrity is honed.

And once I realized, just pulling back to some of the things that are our biggest undoing, when I'm talking to the children, and then I'll say, Okay, fine, I know you people want me to give your parents feedback around how you manage technology. What would you want me to tell them? And they will say a ray of things.

But when I listen to what feedback the young ones are giving me, it will be more or less, can you [00:09:00] trust us? Can you give us, like, release the leash a little bit? Can you come and play the games with us? Right? Because when a parent is complaining that the children are shouting a lot, but they don't understand why they're shouting, can you come and play with us the game?

You'll find yourself shouting, or you'll find yourself, you know, enjoying what we are doing. So I realized, especially with the parents, because what I do with them is I tell them, I'm not going to teach you to be a techie, but I will teach you how to communicate with your child effectively. So that they're not building walls to keep you [00:09:30] outside their spaces.

Cause they need to understand that they need to trust that even when they mess up doing some stuff on the internet, they can fall back on us. So I created a curriculum where it is really based on, can we integrate our values in some of the things that we're doing at home? When we are giving our children the privileges of having a phone or being on the internet and stuff like that, can it come with our expectations that are reasonable?

And instead of like us saying it my way or the highway, can [00:10:00] we have them on the table so that I am telling you, I'm concerned about you being groomed. But you're going to tell me how you're going to make me trust that when I give you this gadget, you're going to be responsible to know the kind of people you're talking to on the internet.

So with that consensus, a parent has to have trust to communicate to their child in a way that now the child feels, okay, this is a safe space for me. So even when I'm doing the parenting class, I always just say, your work is to support your child with their online experiences and [00:10:30] fundamentally to conducive environments for them to thrive.

Then, of course, when I'm with them in class, I keep pushing the responsibility by showing them, you know, real-life situations of people who have done very well because of what they're engaging in and the bad side of the internet. Because we, we always can't paint it as doom and gloom. It is not, it really isn't a doom and gloom.

Yeah. So I think once we start striking that balance from the home, you realize even in school, the conversations are a little bit different to have because the children also become [00:11:00] their own peer influencers and champions of safety. Which is a really very good thing. They go to school, they will challenge their teachers to do certain things differently.

Then the teachers will realize, oh yeah, our students are actually maturing in a space where they can call us out on some of the things we are doing. Very simple things like, when we are out on a school trip, please, when you're taking photos and videos of us, would you please ask for consent? Because again, respect goes both ways.

And the teachers will be like, that makes sense. I don't want to create a footprint on behalf of this child, [00:11:30] and they didn't give me consent. So, when we create that environment where even the children themselves are really pushing the adults to become more accountable, then at least we are moving forward.

And then I always tell parents to parent with grace. Because one of the things we have to acknowledge is we didn't wake up and become parents. We also went through the same system. We were once teenagers who pushed boundaries. We lied. The environments could have been a bit different, if not totally [00:12:00] different.

But did we lie to our parents? Absolutely. Did we push boundaries? Absolutely. Did we think that we know better than the adults in our lives? Absolutely. So when we have empathy and grace, we tend to understand them so that now we are like, okay, fine, I think my child is going through this. Similarly to what I went through, different circumstances, but I have grace to understand that I, I can take my child through a certain process, not being a draconian parent, but [00:12:30] parenting with this empathy and grace. So I, I kind of take that route, because I know when we become very tough, it's my way or the highway. Then the children will be like, it's okay, I'll keep you out of my world. And the child benefits and the parent as well tends to lose.

I love what you're saying. This is 200 percent in line with what I believe is the way forward to fixing a lot of the problems that we're seeing online. I'm just so, so happy [00:13:00] to hear someone who's been doing it for such a long time. Obviously, you've made this work in practice. Obviously, as we were talking before, new problems are coming constantly.

But if there's the respect between the different generations, that, that's right, the parents don't know the online world, but they know the world. They know what risks are. Children know the online world much better, but they will often underestimate the risks that they're getting into. As you said, we all did [00:13:30] that sometimes.

I can't imagine living as a teenager where my every move can be tracked by a not only tech companies, but also my parents. I don't, that's really hard to, to grow up independent in that, in that situation.

Oh, it is, it is, it's definitely. It feels like you're being spied, like every one of your moves is being spied upon, like there's no privacy at all.

Yeah. And, and this is on the one… And I work with a lot of [00:14:00] privacy experts and every time I think of this would be a good way to help the kids, then the privacy experts are like, well… I hear you. If you consider, if you want to respect their privacy, which we obviously do, also from avoiding unnecessarily collecting digital footprints for them, then the only way forward is mutual respect. And one thing I do want to ask you. Going back to the, the [00:14:30] specific Kenyan situation, because a lot of the tech, I would say a vast majority of the tech are large American companies, the software, and also the tech hardware.

Do you feel that, like, especially adults in Kenya who are trying to deal with kids who maybe are more influenced by the American way of life, that there's also a challenge there that maybe the society in general and that families are having to deal with?

Absolutely. I think the minute that We all go online, we just, we [00:15:00] cease being only citizens of our active countries. We take on a new form of being global citizens, which means there's a lot of globalization and global culture that we are picking from what we are interacting with, what we are watching, and what we are creating.

And even when we end to see the creation part of it, it really, really leans on a lot of globalized culture. So I feel like at some point we, when we don't constantly train our children on our own nuances or [00:15:30] our own culture, then we are losing a bit of that to what is being formed globally, the global perspective.

So definitely is something to watch out for. Something to be aware and not just be aware, but being intentional on the fact that as much as they're learning new things, because I do believe when they're on the internet and they're learning different perspectives, it's really good for them to have those different global perspectives.

But we need not to forget what is local, what is cultural, what is with us as Kenyans. So [00:16:00] definitely something that we, we need to expand more and have conversations around.

I think so too. And I think that it's underestimated at the moment. We were discussing before we started recording that it's underestimated the importance of actually not losing the various global cultures to this multinational, international software companies.

As I said before, I really also believe in terms of AI, that I [00:16:30] wanted to be an optimist and say that the companies are going to figure out that actually it's true. The more diversity that an AI model has, the better it's going to be. And I believe these companies are going to figure out at some point they should invest more resources in actually collecting information and actually preserving these local cultures.

And this could also help at some point when in the future, I believe various countries will figure out, wait a minute, we're being assimilated a little [00:17:00] bit and we need to push back on teaching our local culture. Then it will be recorded in a way that actually can, with the models as they are now, it can be easily understood because it seems often pretty close to the way humans pass, pass information.

So I, I want to believe that the companies are going to figure this out.

Absolutely. And I think you're right when you say diversity is good. And I think as much as possible, we need to be as diverse as we [00:17:30] possibly can be. And the fact that of course, technology also helps us to preserve things longer. You can imagine our parents back in the day probably had a challenge taking photos, but now we have digital photos. We don't print them anymore. We are saving them on cloud. So I think even as technology is evolving, then we have a space there to preserve our cultures and record so that our future generations can find this. I know it will be a relic at some point, but it's served somewhere where they can also just go back and say, okay, this is where [00:18:00] our roots are coming from.

This is why certain medicine is called what is called. It came from this place. It came from this plant. And it's untapped, really. If you look at it, it's an opportunity which is untapped that we need to be able to feed onto these language models in a way that creates what you've just said, diversity. And diversity is good.

It is. It's beneficial. And this isn't political. It's actually going to be, I know people are often driven by money, so this will fill someone's pockets at some point. It will be [00:18:30] beneficial for both sides. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Unfortunately, we're almost out of time, but I do want to ask you, because I just love your approach.

I love what you're doing. How can we best enhance children's digital well being, like, aside from what you were describing before, what have you found the most effective?

I have found two things effective. Helping them understand that there is a difference between excessive screen time and the kind of [00:19:00] content that they are consuming because those two are, they're two totally different things.

I always say if my children are playing chess and they're playing chess for maybe 30-40 minutes more than the screen time that is allocated to them, that's not a really bad thing, right? And they tend to look at it as a positive way. I also found that when I, not really myself, but even as a company, even my trainers, when they go out there, we, we empower them to know what red flags are. And it's anything that really makes them uncomfortable, and [00:19:30] what to do when they feel that discomfort.

So it's simple, like, you know, making them know that there is a line like we have the child helpline that is toll-free. It is just three numbers. They can call it and express themselves in a way that communicates that they're uncomfortable or they have a certain discomfort. So, and also now out of that, helping them to decompress.

So as much as possible, making them realize that, you know, there's life after this gadget. There's one thing that I always tell my children in this day and age is like, you know, [00:20:00] whatever you're watching on Netflix, you can pause it, you can stop it, you can rewind it, you can watch it 20 times. So even when there is an opportunity for you to go outside and play with your friends, you can actually leave what is there, and you'll find it exactly where you left it.

And if you want to go back, you can go back to it. And I think once they have that realization, they're like, okay, maybe this technology is not going anywhere. I will still find it here. Whatever I was watching, I'll find it here. I'll find the games here. So for them, and especially when they're feeling anxious and we have to start teaching them how to, [00:20:30] to label their feelings, you know, they cannot just say, what is funny?

Can you try and explain what funny means? Then at least they know. When they're getting to a point of anxiety, they need to do certain things to come down fast. Because they need to be in control of their well being. Even as much as they want to get support from maybe an adult who understands how to support them.

So I've found those tactics really helpful, and just making them also just champions of their own spaces. So that they can come up with also tools [00:21:00] themselves. Because I also find that sometimes when we are imposing ourselves on them, they don't have that mind of thinking, but I can do this in a different way and achieve a similar result.

So we also ask them. In a case like this, and we paint a scenario for them, how would you get yourself out, or how would you resolve a certain incident? And they come up with solutions for themselves, and they're like, okay, carry that along and train more people to do something similar.

So even when we are involving them, I think it really, really does go a long way. It does.

It does. Thank you. [00:21:30] And that's the best thought to close with. This is 100 percent in what, in line with what I'm trying to achieve. Is kids are so much further than most adults can imagine. And if we don't empower them, then we can't win. We can't win this battle. So thank you so much. And I hope that a lot of people can learn from what you've been doing and maybe see their fight for online safety in a different way.

Oh, absolutely. So I'm looking forward to [00:22:00] watching and spreading your message as much as I personally can.

And I hope we can continue doing this again and again. I mean, we don't need to stop it at episode one. We can do more episodes. Absolutely. Yeah, we will.

Absolutely. So I'm looking forward to it already. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for coming. Bye. Thank you. Bye.

Please let us know what you think about what we are talking about in this episode and the others. Check out more, and subscribe at digi-dominoes.com! Thank you so much for listening! I'd also like to thank our sponsor, Data Girl and Friends. Their mission is to build awareness and foster critical thinking about AI, online safety, privacy, and digital citizenship through fun, engaging, and informative content. Check them out at data-girl-and-friends.com!

Until next time, stay curious and keep learning!