[Renee]

What I realized was that I was questioning. So, you know, I think the key term now is imposter syndrome. I was really questioning, do I belong here? You know, especially after John passed, my confidence went to an ultimate low. And I didn't know that that was going to be a symptom of my grief, and it really triggered that childhood pain of questioning, like, what is wrong with me? And do I belong in this space? And through working with Raquel, she really identified that for me and was like, you need to see these people who you're having a lot of tension with at work as triggering that childhood trauma of not being able to fully be who you're meant to be. And then, you know, I guess self-evaluating. Is this true? No, this is not true. Am I meant to be here? Yes. Have I worked hard to be here? Do I deserve to be here? Yes, I do.

[VO]

Welcome to Why She's Winning with your host Christy Rutherford, a master of office politics and self-care advocacy. Christie's clients have received over 10 million in salary raises in a pandemic. Surprised that women are still getting paid during these challenging times. It's possible for you too. You can have it all. If you believe you deserve it, Christy and her guest will assist you with that; let's get started.

[Christy]

Welcome everyone to While She's Winning; I'm your host Christy, brother Foot looking finding than ever. Good grief. Are you looking at me right now? Renee, I am here with the amazing Renee Turner. So let's talk about what Renee has accomplished in her career. She's a corporate litigator at a top New York City law firm where she represents corporations, boards of directors, and financial institutions in state and federal in connection with regulatory investigations by the US Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission; she also maintains an active pro bono practice providing legal services to low-income women and victims of domestic violence prior to her career as litigator Renay clerk at the District Court of the Virgin Islands and the Superior Court of the District of Columbia, Renee currently serves as an advisory board member for the Best Buddies New York, a nonprofit dedicated to creating opportunities for individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities. She also chairs the Gun Violence Prevention Working Group for the law firm Anti-Racism Alliance. In 2020, she was selected to participate in the Leadership Council on Legal Diversity Pathfinder program, which trains high performing, of course, early-career attorneys. Last month, she was featured in the Lawyers of Color Annual Hatless, which recognizes mid-career attorneys excelling in the legal profession. Welcome, Renee.

[Renee]

Hi, Christy. Thank you for having me today.

[Christy]

We had to get Renee together in all this light. I was like, we gonna show this fondness cuz Renee is on fire today. So I was like, "Hmm. Turn it around." We got to; we got to get all this glory on the screen. So, Renee, I've been waiting for this interview since last February, which is when you started.

[Renee]

Yes, that's correct.

[Christy]

So the goal is… today we're gonna talk about shifting from grief to gratitude, but what was going on with you initially when you decided to reach out when you decided to reach out to us to work with us?

[Renee]

Yes. So when I reached out last year, I was about a year and a half out from losing my husband, John, who passed from cancer when he was 36. I was 34 at the time, and we had two children who were two and four or at the time of his passing. It was unexpected and relatively quick. And I was at, I would say, the lowest point in my life. I was on autopilot. I was trying to maintain a very demanding career while still being a present mom to two very young children suffering through grief as well as my own. And I was bitter, angry, and I just didn't know where to turn to next. and then I came across Christy.

[Christy]

So, you know, the thing about, you know, Dana, your Eagle Crew, is writing a book, and I just wrote her for a word, and I was talking about how a lot of women when we're going on the pursuit of success, nobody really talks about the challenges and the sacrifices. Right. And we're just trying to go get it. And then when you have devastating loss like you've had, it's hard to slow down and process because we're still expected, really, by ourselves and other people, to continue to show up like nothing happened, right? So there's this melting, and then you come to work, work kind of put together, but you're still melting. And we never have time to decompartmentalize what's really going on and face it, to move on. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. So what, when you came, we came to talk about your job.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Christy]

Right? And it's really like, how can I show up better at work, right? While, while ignoring the good, the melted candle that had like one part of the wick left, you know? So what was, did I say something to, you know what people always say, y'all say, I'll be offensive. Did I say something to you? I think I was nice about it. I'm not sure. But what was one of the things I would say in our initial conversation that kind of sparked, you know, a light bulb that went on in your head on what was really going on and what needed to change?

[Renee]

Yes. so I did reach out for professional reasons, but once we started to talk, it was an instant deep dive into my upbringing childhood. And you asked very pointed questions that revealed what I had experienced throughout my life. And for the first time, someone identified for me, basically that there were a trilogy of traumas that I had experienced that I had never fully healed from. And I was b, I mean, drowning in so much grief. And for me, it was the light bulb went off, and like, yes, this makes sense, and I have to do the work to heal all of these traumas in order to get to the place of my life where I wanna be.

[Christy]

Hey, Christy Rutherford over here. Do you wanna learn how to ask for and get a 30% phrase without getting another degree? Look, black women are the most educated and the least paid. I should tell you that that math is not math, and the degree is not. The path to the next level is actually learning how to articulate the value and take credit for the work that you've already done. So I wanna invite you to get my free case study at Change now with christie.com. Just get the information, use it, and take the money out of the hands of your employers and put it into your household because you already deserve it. You just have to know how to ask for it. Again, change now with christie.com. I can't wait for you to get this insight. Use it and get the money that you deserve. Take care.

[Renee]

Yeah, I'm new.

[Christy]

Okay, great. What advice do you have for, you know, leaders, right? Who have experienced loss? Because we're all 30-something, 40 something like regardless of how long you've lived, we've all lost someone, or we're gonna lose someone. Or, you know, a guy I was talking to, you know, a couple years ago was talking about preparing for grief as his parents were preparing for that. What advice do you have for leaders who are on the professional track that have had loss and and they haven't slowed down to address it? What advice do you have for them?

[Renee]

Sure. So I think the advice is that it's really important to heal in the moment as much as possible. So I think for me, what was creating so much distraught in my life was my husband. He was basically my sigh of relief. So once we started dating and got married, I just felt so protected and grounded in a sense of security and that this person loved me fully, that I had this life that he always dreamed of. But what was missing was healing from childhood trauma that had, I guess, transcended through the years but was never resolved. And so now, as you know, at that time, 34-year-old senior associated big law firm handling multimillion-dollar cases, I am literally my professional life was not reflective of my personal life where I really struggled to wake up every day.

[Christy]

So he was like, finally, the relief. If we want to talk a little bit about losing your parents, like losing your mom at a really young age and then losing your aunt and then your dad. And so you finally found this security blanket, right? Where you can finally breathe, and then that's gone while you're trying to work. So unpack, you know, your story just a little bit. If you choose, you can be like, no, move on, But I want, you know, you're like the poster child for what he is properly healing your grief and moving through it. Right? And I don't wanna talk about that, you know, as we, as we discussed, but tell the listeners a little bit about your journey and where you are right now.

[Renee]

Yeah. Well, my dad's still alive, thankfully. But my mom, no, it's okay. My mom passed. I'm a twin, and my mom passed when we were eight weeks old from a brain aneurysm. And so, you know, we had that initial trauma that even as babies, and I've learned from thanks to Christie and working with Althea, that, although I was an infant, that still affected me in terms of my development, emotional development. And so I grew up with that loss of a mom, and then I had a stepparent that wasn't, I think, for me was, not the stepparent that I needed as I was growing up and developing. And what I learned was that she stripped a lot of what makes me who I am. So in trying to mold me into a meek submissive, you know, child who only said yes and no and didn't speak her mind, I grew up like not being fully who I am, which is strong-willed, passionate, ambitious, driven, like this is who I am, and it makes me great. And I had to realize like, “I don't have to strength for anybody else to feel comfortable. I need to fully be who I am.”

[Christy]

So you're step… because you're a Leo, you and your sister, you a full Leo too, right? Yeah. Like we always talk about, you know, Leo's, we're egotistical. You be like you on the cusp, you like you, you were born in July, you were born in late August. You don't count. You're like full all caps, Leo. <Yes> So you have, and naturally, we're a little special, but we're strong-willed, we're opinionated, you know, and your stepmother in your formative years was trying to make you a sheep. Pretty much.

[Renee]

You're right. Right?

[Christy]

So how did that… 'cuz we had to go back and reconcile the books on that, right? Because it affected right, in your formative years, how you saw yourself, and you're fighting, but the fighting can only last for so long before you could succumb and then you get back up. So what was, how did that, I would say, show up in some of your personal and professional relationships?

[Renee]

Well, I would say that it showed up predominantly professionally. And what I realized was that I was questioning, so, you know, I think the key term now is imposter syndrome. I was really questioning, do I belong here? You know, especially after John passed, my confidence went to an ultimate low, and I didn't know that that was going to be a symptom of my grief, but it was, and it really triggered that childhood pain of questioning like, what is wrong with me? And do I belong in this space? And through working with Raquel, like she really identified that for me and was like, you need to see these people who you're having a lot of tension with at work as triggering that childhood trauma of not being able to fully be who you're meant to be. And then, you know, like, I guess self-evaluating, like, is this true? No, this is not true. Am I meant to be here? Yes. Have I worked hard to be here? Do I deserve to be here? Yes, I do.

[Christy]

Ooh, we, that's so good. Let's unpack that a little bit because a lot of times, I mean the imposter syndrome is this word that women adopt, which is not true because you're talking about something in the moment when really the root of it is far behind. People treat you how you show up, so if you're showing up. Flickering between a sheep and a lioness, that's dangerous one, right? By animal kingdom standards, right? One moment you are a sheep, and that's not gonna last so long cause you're like, Leo, Leo. And then when you act like a Leo, people don't know what to do, and then you act like a sheep, and then they get comfortable, and they cross the line, and then they're missing an arm and a leg. Right? Right, and then you're like, well, which 1:00 AM I? Because you're kind of adjusting to suit the room, and it's all inner chaos, and you don't feel like you belong because it's the inner battle, not necessarily what people are prescribing on you. Does that make sense?

[Renee]

Right, right. Yes, exactly. And what, oh…

[Christy]

Go ahead.

[Renee]

No, Go ahead. I was just gonna say what I noticed was that instead of fighting back and asserting myself as the true Renee Turner, I was in my mind thinking, okay, there's a tension here, and this person doesn't deserve the full Renee. And so I would be very, you know, complacent and, you know, it is what it is. And in working with Vision Finder, I pushed myself to assert myself and say like, no, this is what it is, and then show up fully. And that changed how my, I guess my, happiness that work.

[Christy]

So let's unpack that a little bit cuz there is this article that's going around which annoys me completely that says, you know, corporate America should embrace black women introverts. And I'd be like, y'all ain't no introverts. Y'all playing small, right? That's lying. That's acting like a sheep, which, which creates a toxic work environment in my mind, in our mind is because we can't show up fully a lion us. That's chilling is more acceptable to herself. And that's just her, you know, owning who she is and acceptable to others than a lion who's unpredictable. Cause that's dangerous. Right, right. Right. So how, how did unpacking that, and now I would say, what is the difference between how you show up at work today versus how you were showing up, you know, last February? Like what's the stark what's the stark difference in that and and how you're received by other people?

[Renee]

Yes. So the difference between how I'm showing up at work is I'm very intentional about who I give my time to, how I present myself in the office, at home doing remote work, and the type and quality of work that I'm presenting. And so I just enjoy my job more now because I know that I can fully be who I am, and whoever aligns with that will be a part of my circle, and whoever doesn't will fall to the wayside. And I'm okay with that. And I think that I garnered a lot of respect within my institution because I do show up fully because I do advocate for more junior people in my firm, and I want them to know that they can truly show up the way that they need to. But I also think it's really important to since I have had a lot of grief and trauma; I take what are called grief days. So like, I fully, if I cannot to a certain extent, fully function that day like I take a break and I let myself feel the feelings. And what I was doing before, I was just like trying to push through, and it was fruitless. Like I would be miserable, I wouldn't produce the work product that I wanted to, but now I let myself feel the feelings and then move on.

[Christy]

You know what I, I know we talked about it at some point in the program. I was supposed to have it ready, Renee, you know how I do; I'm glad, no, I was changing my shirt. But, you know, shifting from, you know, grief to gratitude is so, it's like if you're trying to push down the grief to right, to suppress it or move through it or ignore it is lingering there and you're not that good for maybe a week Right,

[Renee]

Right.

[Christy]

You know, as opposed to saying, you know what, I feel it, let me feel it, move through it. So it's like walk over the coals quickly as opposed to standing on 'em and ignoring that. Right. You're standing on hot coals, right? In a firewall that Tony Robbs and all, like, you're actually standing on 'em and you're in ignore, you're ignoring it, which you're creating further damage, you know, to where you are. So what's one or, you know, one piece of advice or two pieces of advice that you can give to the listeners about that, like that technique of how do you feel it and then move through it? Like what does that look like? What does that process like?

[Renee]

Yeah, so what I've learned is I had to learn how to give myself grace and compassion. So we as humans, I think, are naturally inclined to be compassionate about other people's struggles. But what I found was that I was spiraling in the moment in my grief because I was not saying like, of course, you feel like crap today. Or, of course, this thing that happened triggered something that upset you. And not allowing myself to feel those feelings like you said. And then it just, you know, it just increases and increases and increases until I was left just incapable of fully functioning. And so I learned how to acknowledge that I deserve grace and compassion, and I can give it to myself, and I don't have to seek it out outwardly all the time.

[Christy]

And that's huge because you, I mean, you said it, we're always doing it for other people. We don't do it for ourselves. Yeah. Right. And once you said, you know what? I deserve it, too from me, because we get so stuck on what other people should give us in the moment that we're not expressing. Cuz we can't be weak. You're lying. So you're a leader, like right, you're Renee Turner, you're the Renee Turner, let's be clear, like Renee can't be weak ever, but there's a difference. What's the difference? I would say, between, and this is what we don't do well at work. We don't ever wanna be seen as weak or a victim. So what I would say, what's the difference in being weak and giving yourself grace?

[Renee]

Yeah. So I think, honestly, the word I would use is being vulnerable. So I never wanted to show vulnerability. Like I always had it together, and I analogize it to, you know, if you're in deep water and all you can see is somebody's head floating above the water, and they look peaceful, and they look put together, but underneath they're like furiously kicking their feet to say above water. That was me. Like, everyone saw me as really put together, like, wow, Renee's so strong. Like, she's got this, I don't have to show up for her, but I am drowning just trying to stay above water. And I'm like, doesn't anybody see how I need help? But of course, they didn't because I'm not sharing. And so what I changed was being vulnerable and being like, here's where I am in my life. Here's what I'm going through. And hopefully, you can be understanding about that. But I have to set boundaries for myself so that I can continue to survive and be the woman I wanna be for myself, the mom I wanna be for my children, et cetera.

[Christy]

How is that received, right? Because we have this strong terrified fear of if we advocate for ourselves, somebody's gonna, like, ugh, like, stab you in the back. So how was that? What was that like? And I know that's a process that you or Raquel worked on, like how do you stand up for yourself but just ask people to give you grace? What was that like to experience? And then what was the, you know, the receptivity of that?

[Renee]

Honestly, it was frightening to let my guard down in that way. But once I did it, it's like once you keep doing things over and over; you start to lose that anxiety about doing it. And so once I took the initial step and the receptivity was warm and understanding and acknowledging like, yes, like we get it. And take the time that you need to heal to do what you need to do. I realized like I was really, at, I guess, harming myself by not being vulnerable and trying to be so strong and act like I have it all together when, you know, I did, but I didn't

[Christy]

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[Christy]

So I wanted to back up on that because I remember when our first conversation, you were like, shattered pieces; I'd have touched to you at a busted into a thousand pieces. So I'm almost trying, you know, I ain't drag you like I typically do, right? And how did it feel to be seen and not judge for that fragile state, right? Because you were like, I mean, not even like glass like a bubble, we touch you like woo like it is over, right? So what was, what did that feel like to be seen? Because, you know, and then I want to know that, and then the second part is what advice do you have for women who are walking around? Just like you were saying that this is okay when that to exist. Like that was not okay.

[Renee]

Right. So I think in terms of, so I was diagnosed with high functioning depression, and I had never really heard that term before. And I didn't want to identify as being depressed, but I knew that there was something that I needed to acknowledge about what I was experiencing and going through your program and talking to you, like the first time that we spoke, you know, you identified for me my traumas, but you also said, and it was something I really needed to hear, was like, Renee, you made it because I remember you asked me like, what my salary was and what I did for a profession. And you were like, you don't have to keep trying to prove yourself like you've already made it. And I was like, yeah, I have. No one had ever said that to me. And so I never, I was just chasing after more, more and more and like, no, like I can relax, I can exist in this wonderful career. I can be the mom I wanna be; I can live where I wanna live. I don't have to struggle anymore. So that was something I really needed. And then, going into the group and being with Raquel and the other women, and I entered my cohort after they had already been in sessions for a couple weeks. And so that was a little nerve-wracking because, you know, they'd had already started to do some work, but the receptivity and warmth of the women that I did this work with is something I can't even describe in words like my heart is so that I know these women that they were so compassionate and did not judge my experience or what I had gone through and extremely supportive.

[Christy]

So let's talk about the group, right? Because wounded women, we ain't gonna admit that we were wounded ever because the wounded animal is more likely to be attacked by other, you know, hyenas, right? And so we're walking around, you know, afraid to be vulnerable, and we definitely don't have time to unpack our stuff, and we don't even recognize that we made it because we're struggling, wanting to get to like the next thing. So what was that? I want you to unpack a little bit about being around other women who, you know, we deal in the business of badass women over here to see that they had some stuff too. Like, what was that like? What was that like?

[Renee]

Well, in this process, I felt very alone and isolated. And so to enter this space, a safe space with women who, everyone had their own journey, right? But we all connected on A. Trying to better ourselves and B. Being vulnerable enough to share where we were in our lives and what we had experienced and all of it. And I think what I took away from the group that I was in the most was Raquel. Raquel was still going through her journey, and she shared that with us. And it was so eye-opening to see, like, even once you get to a stage of healing like you're still going through it. And for her to share that with us, I think, was really transformative for a lot of us all. All of us, honestly. And I just appreciated that. Yeah, just the level of transparency was incredible.

[Christy]

Yeah, we're, we're never really done, ever, right? There's always another level. So we got Stephanie here. Did you ever meet Denise? You gotta meet Denise. Denise, you gotta come to Atlanta; you gotta stop playing and get out here in these streets. But so you got the tribe, right? Because we show up, the tribe is showing up in the background. So what advice do you have for women who are lonely in leadership? Because we implode here first, right? Because we're typically the only ones in our organization, we're the only ones in our family. And what we think that as we get higher and higher in leadership and we get more accolades, and we get more degrees that we're gonna continue to, I think, keep that commonality, and we'll have more commonality. But it actually is the reverse, and women don't talk about it. We actually become super paranoid cause, of now, you have to maintain the illusion of this perfect person, and we're like shattered on the inside.

[Renee]

Right. I dunno.

[Christy]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Renee]

Well, I think you said advice for women in leadership, and I think as a result of working with Vision Finder, I've developed a level of confidence and knowing that having a network and a support system is crucial to my continued professional development. And so for me, now, I feel confident enough to seek out those relationships to identify with other Black women, other Black men in my profession who are doing the work that I am doing. And just to lean on them. And it goes back to that vulnerability of... The other night I went to an event just specifically for lawyers, and I shared I'm a widowed mom, and it's been hard for the last two years, but here I am, showing up at this event, and I'm here, and I wanna talk to you. But, like, it really forces people to let their guard down and let you in.

[Christy]

So what advice do you have for people you know who have lost a spouse? What are two or three things that they could do? Because we see it on LinkedIn like all the time, and I screenshot some of the people that send it to you, I'll be like, "My God." And they don't know how to get out of the bed in the morning. And a year later, they're not unpacking it, or it's a week out. What advice do you have for them? And then what are one or two things that they can do to aid them in their journey of healing?

[Renee]

Yeah. So I think one thing that I try to remember is there co survived a hundred percent of your worst days, and I try to repeat that over and over. Christy, can you still hear me?

[Christy]

Yeah, you were breaking up a little bit. I thought it was my [Bahamian] wifi. I can hear you, though; go ahead.

[Renee]

Okay. So I was saying the quote that you have survived a hundred percent of your worst days. And so I really rely on that quote to give me the inspiration to move on to another day and face another thing. But one thing that I heard was basically that we hear in this human life, and you said this to me during one of our sessions was that I was looking for physical answers to spiritual questions. And I had to realize that I had to develop and foster a new relationship with my husband that wasn't in a physical form. And for me, that has been like looking for the signs. Raquel made me write a gratitude list thanking him for everything that he gave me while he was here and everything that I still have as a result of having that relationship with him. And I think, most importantly is, there's no timeline for healing the grief. And you know, like I said, there are days when I have really hard days, and I feel them, and I felt a lot of pressure initially to heal fast because I have kids, I have to keep moving. But I think that it's really important to take your time and to find the resources that are available to assist you through the process.

[Christy]

So Renee, not Renee, Raquel's on here; she's in the background. So let's talk about moving through, right? Because, you know, I hear some people be like, "Oh, you should be grieving for seven years." And you know, I'd be like, get the freak outta here. That's a long time to be because you're gonna have high highs, and then you're gonna have the media, which is what we were trying to work to get you here. And then you'd be like, boop, and then you'll hit the bottom. But you know what it's like to get back up to the even-keeled energy was the work. It's like, all right, Renee, you like down here at the bottom of the ocean, we're gonna pull you out, dry your hair off cuz you, I mean, you're successful, right? And now get you to maintain this level of energy that you'll go up, and then when you get down, you know how to get back up. But some people, I've seen the advice of you, should expect to be down here for seven years.

[Christy]

Yeah, yeah. Right. What is your... because I could always say that's a lie, but of course I haven't lost anybody that close to me that I was married to. So what advice do you have for people who have been told that cuz you always wanna create a new narrative in these streets about what's possible?

[Renee]

Right. You know, during our initial call, like I said, I was about a year and a half out, and you said within six weeks, you're going to feel better. Like it was a guarantee. And literally, that's what made me sign up because I'm like, well, what do I have to lose six weeks? I hope I do feel better in six weeks. And it was true like the work that we did in the group was truly transformative in that amount of time. And there was still work to do. And I'm still... I'm continuing on this process, but I was so grateful that I didn't have to live in this cuz I truly was on autopilot, and I was just like, "Okay, I'm just going to continue to do my job, and I'm just gonna raise these kids." And I was gonna have this just very dull life. And you said to me, like, what if the second half of your life is better than the first? And at first, when you said that, I'm like, I felt a lot of guilt because, like, I had this great partner, he's now passed, and I don't want him to think that my time with him was any less than my future. But then I realized like, yes, I deserve to have a great second half of my life. I deserve to be happy, and my kids deserve that. What kind of mom depressed all the time? I can't fully support them and be the mom I wanna be if I am not healed. And so I've just truly appreciated that there was no set amount of time that I needed to process through my grief. It's a lifelong journey, and I will grieve for the rest of my life, but I can be happy too.

[Christy]

I'm getting chills that are like shooting up this side and coming out this side. I mean, because your joy is so evident, right? Like your joy, and I'll be like this; we gonna get you, right, girl. And then I'm interview you. I can't wait. Come on. You know, for the other women, I'll be like, I be like, come on over here Renee, we gonna hold your head. Twist you around just a little bit. But we ain't going, you know, WWF be like, I gotta do some of the other women. But I mean, I'm so proud of your quest for joy. Cause you had to look for that. Yes. Right. A lot of times, people think like, oh, one day the dark clouds are gonna go is raining on your hair every day. You know, we hate that. The one day, magically through no work at all, the clouds are gonna go away, and the sun is gonna start shining. Or Renee, people just don't believe that the sun will ever shine in their life again. So for you to move through that is like the weather is mostly sunny. Sometimes it rains, we stay in the house, you eat ice cream, you do whatever you do, but then you know, you know that the sun is gonna shine again and that you're gonna be happy. So I'm so proud of you for that. And one of the things I want you to touch on a little bit when Raquel told you to write a letter, so what is that practice like in the moment that the trigger, cuz I want to be able to give because this is something that we worked on with one of our other clients with their, who lost her month, right? It's like write letters of gratitude, sharing the good times as opposed to drowning of what should've would've could've. So what's that practice like for you?

[Christy]

Hey, Christy Rutherford here. I hope that you're enjoying the podcast so far, but what I know that you'll love even more is joining us in our private community. Join us in this private community, like Money Loves Happy People, and get live and on-demand insights. So you can use this information to live the life that you truly and deserve. Get a raise and a promotion. No problem. Step into your purpose. No problem. Get the relationship that you deserve. No problem. Look, it's never too late to live the life that you deserve. It's never too late to live a life of total fulfillment. You just need information and inspiration to get on the path and live in your greater life. So go ahead again, click on the link, on around this video, join us in our private community, and change your life for the best. Take care. See you soon.

[Renee]

Yeah. So, I mean, when Raquel gave me that assignment, it was overwhelming, and I knew that I had to be in the right headspace to do it. And so, you know, like, my kids spent the night with family, and I really was intentional about setting aside that time. But once I started, it felt so good. And it's so true about, you know, I was so sad, so depressed. Like how could I lose him? I lost my mom; I had a shitty childhood, and now this, like, what did I do in a prior life to deserve this? But then, once I started writing everything that I was grateful for that we had experienced over the seven years that we were together, it was like my heart was just soulful, and I could not stop writing. I think I told Raquel I wrote like ten pages in one night, and it was the best experience because it really shifted my focus on the good as opposed to the sad. And you know.

[Christy]

That's so good. That's so good. You know, I wanna go back to when you said that you could change in six weeks, right? One, you believe me? Did you really believe me, or did you just be like we just gonna see what happens, right? Because

[Renee]

No, I believed you.

[Christy]

We make big promises over here. Vision, finance, international. You'd be like, we not gonna do anything slow. We're go-getters. We're leaders. You be like, 'cause we can execute anything in a certification, we're gonna show with excellence. Yeah. You know, you put us in a women's group, you give us a project, we're gonna do it fast, why can't we have joy fast? So talk to a little bit about that.

[Renee]

So once you told me that it would be a six-month process in terms to get to this feeling better and an initial step into this joyous life, I knew I had to be committed to the process. So that meant doing the work, showing up every week for the calls, listening to all the videos, which I loved. And so it was really being committed to the process and not selling myself short 'cause I knew that there was a tried and true method that you had created and implemented and had seen results in order for you to make that kind of promise, right? So I was like, well, she told me in six weeks, so I expect in six weeks I'm gonna feel better, I'm gonna look better. And then I think, like right, I think my six-month, I mean six-week program ended right before the Atlanta event, and I showed up, and you're like, who is this? You know? And it was, I truly had Change in terms of how I looked, how I felt, how I was showing up in spaces, and it was amazing.

[Christy]

Yo. [inaudible] screaming.

[Renee]

I have a picture, and you're like,

[Christy]

I think I'm being harassed. Not sure I know she ain't hitting on me, but I find you screaming. "Oh my God, no, you're so fat!"

[Renee]

Exactly.

[Christy]

I mean, I have, you know, we have like a million pictures from that event. I always say, like, my favorite pictures are of you on the stage like, you know, was on the stage dancer, right? Like whatever the song was. And I'm like, "Oh my God, look at Renee." And I showed Marty, I was like, "Oh my God, look at Renee." She was like, "Oh my God, right." So did you believe prior to February in the statement that you could be this happy? And then what advice do you have for people who don't believe that they can never have joy again?

[Renee]

Yeah, so I think a lot of widows see, especially if you have a really good marriage, which I think I did. Is like your best days are behind you. Okay, like I'm grateful that I had those seven years with John, but moving forward, there's no way that I could have joy again. And when I talked to you last February, I was really in that place of, like, this is it. And I couldn't even appreciate where I was in my life. I couldn't appreciate that I after John died, that I purchased my first home by myself. That I furnished my first home by myself. All these accomplishments that I was continuing to attain, I couldn't be in a place of appreciating that success because I was so focused on the past. And during one of our sessions, you made analogy to like I was holding onto like at the bottom of the sea, like holding onto John and like scratching the bottom of the surface of the ocean. Like, don't go even if... if he was destined was like give me. And with that, I wasn't able to see what and think that that was really holding me back from experiencing joy. And I get it, and it's so sad that you lose your person, but there's more life to live.

[Christy]

So I don't know if that's my internet. Wait a minute. Hold on. Renee, is that? Lemme check my phone. Is that my internet or your internet? You know, I'm in The Bahamas. Be like, I always got some bootleg internet. I want you to back up just a little bit. You said when you were at the bottom of the sea, like scratching to say, can you go back to that part? Like, hold, you're trying to hold on, and you don't want him to go back to that part and okay. And recap that.

[Renee]

Yeah. So what I was saying was you were explaining to me that I was holding on to this past life and wanting so badly to live in that moment as opposed to seeing what was ahead for me.

[Christy]

So how have you, cuz you talked about working through and then understanding and now having this new relationship, which Abraham, you know, Esther Hicks talks about her integration with, losing her husband, Jerry. We gonna dip into that just a little bit. Not that far cuz we don't want the saints to be freaked out. But what has it been like to integrate the spirit realm with the physical and where you are right now? Like, if you wanna talk to just a little bit about like, so it's not like if you, cause you're young, right? You're not haggard with one tooth. Like you can run games on masses if you want to, Renee, right? If you choose when the time is right to be available for like the next love because you're still here, right? Right. We're still existing. So what has that experience been like to integrate, you know, your husband, where you don't have to choose? You'd be like, oh, if I move on, it's because I'm leaving him behind. It's like, no, it could be a part of the process or talk a little bit about that.

[Renee]

Yeah. So I truly enjoy Abraham Hicks, and it really has helped me to frame how I should look at this, you know, transition of life and that our person never truly dies. Like they transition onto the next thing, you know, in the spiritual realm. And so what I have developed is being able to continue to have a close relationship with my husband, but in a different way. It's not in a physical sense, but, you know, I look for signs; they're all over, which is so comforting. You know, I'm raising our children, so when something difficult comes up, I write letters, and I try to, you know, hear him, and, you know, it has really been comforting to transition to this new type of relationship. And if there are, you know, any widows who are watching this, there are little things that I've done to keep my husband close. So, my necklace is my wedding ring that I had transformed into a necklace, so I didn't feel comfortable continuing to wear it as a ring, but I feel that he's close to me by wearing my ring around my neck. So there's just little, you know, like, and for the kids, I had his favorite t-shirts made into pillows that they sleep with every night. So it's like just little things that still keep him very close to us and connected, that I think are important.

[Christy]

Well, they're little things, but they're massive, right? Like we think that we need this one big thing to make the transformation and is actually just the one big thing is a culmination of a bunch of small things that, you know, we're not sure whether or not they're gonna be significant, and they are. Right. So, last question. What advice do you have for women who are barely hanging on? Yeah. And they're wondering whether or not they should work with us over here at Vision Final International. What advice do you have for them?

[Renee]

So my advice is honestly to, I felt divinely led to you, Christy. And I think you have to be intuitive enough to know when they're assigned and when people are placed into your life at a certain moment for a certain purpose. And when you see that and when there's an opportunity. So if you're watching this and you have felt led to Christy, I think you just have to trust and based on, you know, my interview, other interviews, that Christy is the truth, and she will get you to that next step. But you have to be committed to doing the work and be understand that you may feel uncomfortable but that it's only for your good. And that it'll only lead you to the where you're destined to be in life, which is to be joyous, to have a happy life, to have, you know, these relationships with wonderful women. So I'm just very thankful for Christy for the program, everything.

[Christy]

Well, thank you, ma'am. So we're gonna close. Don't hang up, Renee. So, everyone, I hope that you've enjoyed this. You know, again, Renee, you know, your click is here. I know they gonna watch the replay. You'll see them blowing up the comment section. You know, Raquel is here, so I'm so grateful for your journey and then you trusting because I talk to a lot of women, they don't believe me. I be like, you know, you could you walking around like that. You don't; you don't need to walk around like that. You could be happy girl. They be like you full of shit. You. That's not true. I wanna hold onto it. I be like, well, alright, we'll keep it moving in. But you know, I'm really proud that you, you know, that you won. Believe me, because that takes trust. And then, you know, trusting that, trusting yourself in the process and doing the work, right? Which you always get to always prove me, right? I told you wrong, you know, but now I would say more so Renee being an example to your children of how they can show up. Does that make sense in the world? And being an example to other people in the world who have lost someone because, yeah, it's tough, right? So I can't wait to see what's next as you move through this journey and continue to see you get happy and happier. So, all right, y'all take care.

[VO]

Thank you for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast and leave us a review. If you love this episode, follow Christie on Instagram and LinkedIn. And don't forget to get her free gift by texting. Change now, all one word again, change now to 6-6-8-6-6. Until next time, go out and win bigger.