TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Marianne Trent, Rosie Gilderthorp

Welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast, the show that helps you to reach more people, help more people, and build the life you want to live by doing more than therapy.

This episode is all about doing more than therapy. It's about stepping outside of the therapy room and doing something creative that reaches more people. So if this is something that you're looking to add into your practice, and you like what you hear, then do come on over to psychologybusinessschool.com and check out the Do More Than Therapy membership. This is our monthly membership that helps you confidently step outside the therapy room and help more people in creative ways. We've got master classes with experts that will help you to get that book written, to launch that online course, podcast, or community project. On top of that, we've also got a supportive community with weekly coaching calls, monthly peer supervision, and a thriving members only Facebook group. So if you like what you hear today, please do come on over to psychologybusinessschool.com and check out the Do More Than Therapy membership.

Today, I'm excited to talk to Dr. Marianne Trent about her experiences of creating an online course, a course is a great example of the kind of passive income product that we can create when we set out to do more than therapy. So it's absolutely brilliant to talk to a psychologist who's actually been there and done it. Because I know there are so many people in the Do More Than Therapy wider community, our Do More Than Therapy members, who are desperate to do an online course but just don't believe it's possible. So thank you so much for joining us here today, Marianne.

Oh, you're welcome. Thank you so much for inviting me, Rosie.

So why don't we start by hearing a little bit about who you are and who you help.

So I am Dr. Marianne Trent. And like you said, I'm a clinical psychologist. So I am a married lady with two children, got to put those first haven't we, and I recently started working just for myself. Prior to that, I was doing a split between the NHS and private practice. But since April, I've been all in and I'm really enjoying it. So my clinical area of specialty when I was in the NHS was working with adults, in sort of an adult mental health service really, which is obviously as we know, a lot of kind of complex trauma really. It's a complex trauma service these days. And then I want, when I qualified, so I qualified in 2011, I worked in CAMS for four years as well in Birmingham. So I've kind of just tipped the balance now of working slightly longer in adults than I did in children’s. But it means that I've I feel kind of equally confident working across the age span, really, although I do tend to see mainly kind of teenagers, from late teenagers, my my favourite of the child age, but most of my caseload is adults. And working through kind of developmental trauma, grief, EMDR, all of that good stuff, really.

So I know, knowing that you've only been kind of all in since April, you've added a phenomenal amount of income streams to your practice. So I know you've got a book, you've got a resources kit that you've made for people, and you've also got this online course. So what inspired you to want to do that from so early on?

Okay, well, I haven't done it all since April. So I am very busy and industrious, but it hasn't all been since then. So the first of my babies was the Our Tricky Brain psychoeducation kit. And that had been kind of in the background of my head for a little while, really. So it had been in my mind probably since about March 2018. And then it came to the market in June 2020. We've just had our first year anniversary, which is very exciting, and I just, when I just, I just saw it as a kit, and then you know, when you go away and you think well I'll Google it, because it must be a thing. It surely must be a thing. And it wasn't a thing. And I was like well, it should be a thing. And that just sort of stayed with me. And then one day I woke up really early on a Sunday, and I was like, I'm just doing it. I'm just doing it. Like it's like I've been thinking about it in my sleep and I woke up I was super early. I just got up and started putting it together and I started reaching out to graphic designers and printers. And you know, and I just, you know, I think you just there comes a point when you give yourself permission to do that and so that's the story of the, you know, the organic growth from, from the Tricky Brain kit. But the next step my babies was the grief book. Yeah, so The Grief Collective. And that was always, in my mind, really. So it exists because my dad died in 2017. But he had been palatively unwell. So he was diagnosed when I was pregnant with my youngest in 2015/16 it was. And I, you know, I felt really fortunate having so many colleagues and friends in mental health, and many of them are psychologists, because they understood grief, you know, and they were supporting me, and especially those who'd already grieved themselves, were contacting me super often to go, how are you? You know, I haven't heard from you, how are things? And to know that I had that permission to actually go, I'm not okay, this is really awful, my dad's dying, you know, that was really beneficial. And I knew, from my experience around the people who hadn't grieved or weren't in mental health, that not everyone has that, because there were many people who could see just how awful I looked, you know, because you do when you're grieving. And, you know, I might even have had a puffy face, you know, and yet, still, they wouldn't say, are you okay, sorry about your dad, because they don't want to make you cry. You know, so I was very aware how spoiled I had been, not spoiled, but I was lucky, you know, that I had that. And so I wanted to create that opportunity for other people who don't have, you know, a phone full of psychologists in their, you know, on their, on their hit list. So, that's what The Grief Collective is, it's 54 stories, written by people who have grieved, not just for people that have died, but for grief for a variety of reasons, to really normalise and validate the experience of grief. And I always wanted to write that, you know, as I was, I was nursing my youngest child who, at the time, and you know, I'd sit in that armchair, nursing him thinking, wonder, messaging people in my grief collective thinking, I'm going to write a book called a grief, The Grief Collective one day, and then someone from a group that we're both in, a psychology practice group, challenged us one day to write a book in a month. So September 2020, it was, it was like, here you go, use that month to write a book and get it done. And so that, again, like my kind of waking up early that Sunday morning, gave me that impetus. Because I don't know if it would have happened, certainly wouldn't’ve happened, in that timeframe, don't try and write a book in a month, you don't get a lot of sleep! Yeah, that gave me the impetus to get it done. You know, it gave me the accountability. And then the next of my babies came soon after that, which was my online course. And that came about, because so much of what we do in psychology, when we're doing trauma, is stabilisation work. So my course comprises the phase one kind of stabilisation phase of trauma work. And I love doing it. But I did find myself, because, because often I work with similar groups of people who've had similar experiences, then there's a similar approach to a lot of the stuff I do. And I found myself slightly bored by the sound of my own voice. But also thinking there's a more cost effective way for clients to access this. So I know sometimes, especially with developmental trauma, there's not always lots of money floating around. And so actually, the bit where we're doing the stabilisation doesn't necessarily need to be one to one, it could be one to many. And so whether there's an opportunity for people to do the stabilisation stuff with someone qualified and experienced in doing it, but then not do that in one to one so that they can save their money to do the processing, one to one where it really you're going to struggle to do that in a one to many setting. So that's what the Feel Better Academy is, and it all sort of came together. So that, that will celebrate its first year anniversary in December. So I think we're quite brand new really, so we're like, yeah, that's six months old now just gone.

It's amazing. And I think you know, it's funny that you should say that because that was exactly the same reasoning I followed when I created my first online course, it was it was never meant to replace therapy, but it was something for people that couldn't necessarily afford for the full course of therapy that I suspected they were likely to need. So mine was in a different area, but a really similar reason. It's putting that client experience first. And I also, I hear a lot in the Do More Than Therapy group particularly, you know, people are looking for something for people on their waiting list to do. You know, how can people make good use of this time, while they're waiting to see me, and as you become more of an expert as you are in a particular field, people want to work with you. You know, I also know we're not going to have a chance, I don't think to talk too much about it today, but you're really good at engaging with the media, you're good at being quite visible. And so I imagine people are like I want to work with Marianne Trent, I don't want to work with just anybody. So you probably end up with people waiting for you, and having something that they can do in that time, where you know that that means they're going to hit the ground running and be able to make the most of their therapy with you. I think it's a really valuable asset for any practice to have that.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And it, you know, with therapy, often people's memory might not be quite, you know, up to speed. And I think as a practice, as a profession we don't tend to routinely record our sessions. I know when I've had sort of power hours with people, so when I've had power hours with an ad specialist for Facebook or something like that, they do record it and send it to me, and it is really useful, because there's so many fiddly steps that I need to go through again. But we don't routinely do that in psychology. And I know when we've had discussions on, you know, Facebook groups about someone said they were going to record it, or they wanted to record it, you know, it can feel a bit ethical as a consideration. And so I don't do that. But this gives people the opportunity to rewind, to replay, you know, to look at it again as much as they need to, until the skill comes more naturally.

Absolutely, absolutely. And that was my, the second online course that I created was to go with my hypno birthing programme. And I never didn't deliver that live, I just wanted there to be a backup, I just wanted there to be something people could revisit. Because you know what it's like on your kind of journey towards birth. Some things don't feel relevant until the moment they become relevant. Like, for example, you know, if you're talking about things like induction, well, that's thankfully not relevant for everybody, and you don't want to be dwelling on it until it becomes relevant for you. But knowing that it's there in the library, and you can access it when you need it. I think it's the same as stabilisation, techniques, isn't it, you might be working really well with something one week, and then be like, oh actually I really need a different one. And there it is for you in the library that Marianne has created. So all round, sounds like a brilliant thing to be able to offer to people, but must have been quite a mental challenge to think about creating in the first place.

Yeah, I mean, I like a challenge. You know, I like a task. So like in terms of accountability, so I launched my, launch my, my course with, with five day challenges. And so that accountability, once you've set the date, you know, you know it's happening, and you know that you're going to announce your upsell on the Wednesday. So I knew the course needed to be ready for a Wednesday, because I didn't want to do a beta thing. I didn't want to say give me your money and I'll get a course to you when it's ready. Because I wanted to know that I'd done it and that it was, it was kind of saleable, and it was gonna be all right. And so yeah, I think at that time, it was when, it was when the kids were off from from school, oh no the kids were at school at that point, it was that weird window in time where they went back, then they were off again. So I was, but I was of course working in the NHS three days a week, and in private practice two days a week. So I think I filmed the majority of the Feel Better Academy at night with my ring light on in the dark, like, you know, but you have to, you know, I think there's something said about successful businesses that it's 5% of businesses that are successful, you really have to pull it out the bag, you know, no one is going to come and save you, you've got to, you've got to show up for yourself, you've got to do that. And I know before we started recording, we were thinking actually, as a profession we're not so good at that, we're not so good at going here I am. And I'm still here, and I'm still here. And yep I know I mean Monday once already. And I know we've talked about this before, but people need that kind of warming up, they need to be held on your mailing lists. So they're giving you their email address to say, I kind of yeah I want to be in your world. Don't just use it once. You know, don't email them once every six months, because people are going to need cuddling and looking after and they're going to need you know, something I've thought about recently, is they're going to need repeatedly magnets from you, you know, so you're getting more data from them, you're getting more information about what stage they're at, with what they're thinking. Whereas, you know, I think often once someone's on my mailing list, I wouldn't necessarily think to send them a quiz or send them a, you know, here's something you can do that might give you more information about this or, you know, so I think there's definitely thinking about, you know, lead magnets for people not yet in your world, but also lead magnets so that you can keep the people engaged. But also, you don't just want to be contacting people when you've got something to sell. So there should be some sort of weekly showing up as well. But I will level with you, that is a thing I struggle with. So I've got a VA, everyone should have one, oh my gosh, how do people cope without them? But my VA, I think, for me, the emails need to come from me, because my emails aren't evergreen, so my emails are written, you know, with a reflection on what's happening in the world right now, or what's happening in my world. So when I was about to turn 40, you know, last Saturday was my 40th, I was writing about my kind of reflections from 30 to 40, you know. And so for me, they've got to be written by me, but it takes me an hour and I like my emails to look pretty and have pictures and you know, do nice things. That takes time as well. And yeah, I guess there was some perfectionism in there because, you know, I could get my VA added into my email software. But it's quite fiddly, isn't it? You know, I don't know what software you use, it's, it can be a little bit fiddly. And just whilst we're sort of getting to grips with the regular weekly thing, it's definitely got to be written by me. But it probably doesn't need to be edited by me. So I'm definitely looking at ways to streamline my business, the things that don't need to be me, probably shouldn't be me.

I couldn't agree more. I think I tried to make a Facebook Live about that this week, some people might have seen it, Facebook, decided to make me into a cyborg and cut out the middle bit, which was the bit where I was really kind of drilling down into how you identify the stuff that you shouldn't be doing. But that's a really good example of it. I completely agree. Your voice must be you, in all of your marketing. Your emails must be you, your social media posts must be you. Because that's what you're selling. I just, I can't get on board with this idea of hiring that out.

You don't have to schedule the social media.

Exactly. Exactly that. So I don't, I've not scheduled my own for a long time because I mess it up royally. I'm still doing my all of my email marketing, but that's yeah, you're right. It's because the platform is glitchy and I'm only just learning it. And that's another lesson I've learned, you do have to know how to do something before you can outsource it. Because otherwise you don't know if the other person is doing it right. But that, you know, maybe that's some of my stuff coming in. But I just wanted to pick up on a point you made about lead magnets, because I know not everybody listening to this will necessarily know what a lead magnet is. So my understanding of a lead magnet is that it's something highly valuable, that solves a problem for somebody, that they, they get an exchange for their email address. So you're collecting their email address, it can then sit in your email software, and you can contact them. So it's kind of them raising their hand and saying what you do is something I'm interested in. Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit about what's your lead magnet for this course?

So my lead magnet for this course is the, is the free five day feel better challenge, which is where you get to kind of try out those techniques really. So five per day. No, not that, five per week. Here's my 25 point week challenge, yeah no. So it's what's one a day from Monday to Friday. And yeah, but I am thinking about making, because it's held in Facebook you see and not everyone is on Facebook, and so you can say well just set up an account and then delete it. But that's perhaps a little bit arrogant. So I'm looking at ways to make that evergreen as well, so that people don't need to wait for a challenge. I'm actually, this is hot off the press, this is an exclusive, as of today I'm putting the challenge material together into an ebook as well, which will also be available as an audiobook. Because what I am thinking is all roads must lead to the Feel Better Academy. So everything I'm trying to do must try to drive that particular client group that I'm targeting into my, into my Academy. So with the, so like you said, I do, do the four minute clinics live, which people can catch on LinkedIn, on YouTube on Good Thinking Psychological Services Facebook page every day, Monday to Friday, around about 9am, but you can catch them on the replay. So yeah, trying to kind of think about ways to help that guide into the challenge and ways to help guide that into the programme as well, without being too salesy and spammy because you know, the content needs to sell itself, and people have got to see that you you know what you're talking about.

Yeah. And I think they'll always be this this group of people who are not ready right now to make any kind of a purchase, but it's still your content has to be valuable enough that they're still recognising that you've got authority in this field, so that when they are ready they'll come back to you. There's so many reasons that creating that good quality content is valuable for the world. You know, I've banged on about it on this podcast so many times. But you know, your clinics are valuable in themselves, the ones that you put out there that I've seen, they're valuable to people. And so why would we then feel bad about making sure that that links really directly to I've got this other really valuable thing that I can offer you? Yes, it's paid for, but people get a lot for their money. So that's, that brings me on, actually. So your course, because I've done a bit of digging, it's not that I'm a stalker, I'm a fan, I've done a bit of digging. And I noticed that your course is actually in the same format that my hypnobirthing online course was in, in that there is still some capacity for people to have contact with you in your course. Can you talk a little bit about how that works?

Sure. It's called the Ask Marianne Anything. And actually, I think that's fastly becoming the bit people like most. So once a week I do webinars, and people that are on the mailing list, who've bought the course will be invited to those webinars. And it's a camera off webinar, I think, mainly because of my client group, and because they don't want to be seen to be raising their hand and right, you know, so it's a camera off style webinar. And people can ask me any questions. So, in theory, the ideal if it was just about the Feel Better Academy content, but that's not how it works. And so it's an open door thing. But any questions about mental health or parenting, please notice, I'm not a risk management service, you know, all of that jazz, and then fling them my way. And on a Friday at 9.15, I go live in that webinar for up to an hour, and then send people the replay link if they couldn't catch it live. And it's, it's really nice. And that's part of, you know, with lead magnet being the feel better five day challenge, they get that every day of the challenge, they get an hour of me chatting and answering their questions, and, you know, showing them what blanket I like snuggling with on the sofa, they get that and so the Ask Me Anything within the paid programme, I can manage an hour a week live, I can manage that, and I really value that and it, you know, and it gives me the ability to say actually, you know, this question is really related to, you know, module number whatever in the in the Feel Better Academy, so, do check out that as well as this answer.

Yeah, I really like that. I think that's semi, we'll call it like semi passive, but that model where you still have some contact with people, works really well for, for psychologists and therapists. I'm interested in the point you made about risk management. So I know for a fact that there are people listening to this right now going, ah, webinar, scary. What if people say something that is, you know, really risky? What do I do? So how do you handle that?

So it's in the terms and conditions. So anyone buying the course will have consented to the terms and conditions that they know I'm not a risk management service. And they've had the advice for what to do if they, if they are risky, you know, you have to en... even in the course challenge sign up thing it says, you know, this is not a risk management service, and if you need advice, you go to GP or emergency service. It hasn't happened so far, you know, and I just kind of normalised some of that mood stuff, really. And if, if I did become concerned about somebody, I'd be encouraging them to, to access, you know, support and help. But in all my communications, it says it's advice, it's not treatment.

And I think that's, that's the take home message, it is as simple as that in a way. And when you're dealing with adults, particularly they understand that contract, and so long as your terms and conditions are readable, and they, and you are confident they have understood it, and you can reiterate it verbally as well, we kind of don't need to tie ourselves in knots over it. I remember I ran a challenge for separated parents over Christmas. And there was quite a lot of risk stuff came up, and I'm not going to lie, my anxiety went through the roof about it. But then I thought a bit harder, and I was actually I'm telling them the right places to go to, I'm referring them to the right services to go to. How many people are out there targeting these same people with really unscrupulous, no ethics behind them, no framework at all, for pointing them in the right direction to get their risk managed or to get help with a particular issue. I think we forget that these people are, they are looking for help somewhere. And, you know if we can provide it and give them that signposting, even if that's all we can do, that's actually a lot better than what they might stumble across, if we're not putting this stuff out there.

Absolutely. I think the worrying thing is in another discussion we've heard recently, I can't remember who it was, it's not appropriate to shame them, even if I do know, but people who've got big ad budgets, you know, I'm making wild, wild claims about what they can achieve for people. And they're just, they're just not true. You know.

I don't know how they're getting away with it. Because, because Facebook have genuinely tried to crack down on that. But still, there's one in particular that I think people know, I've ranted about this before, the particular online EMDR platform, which I won't name either. But yeah saying we can take away your memories, we can take away your shame, we, the stuff, which it just absolutely... oh, and there was no chance of an abreaction? What? What? I mean, I just I commented on one of their ads saying, as an EMDR therapist, this doesn't even make sense. It doesn't even make sense to say there's no chance of an abreaction. Ah, good lord. And Facebook didn't ban that one.

It's really tricky because then that helps their traffic when you engage. It's like I can't not engage, I can't not engage.

Couldn't resist, I couldn't resist it. But, but yes, if you, if you and your ad or me and my ad, say something like, you know, this might help you if you're feeling low, that will be not, that will not be allowed on Facebook, that will be banned. So I yeah, it's, it's a minefield, and I do suspect that it is the big budgets that get people over those hurdles. And we are all kind of fighting against that, whether you're still working with the organic reach side of things, because we're not able to use those headlines that grab people in the same way, because our ethics just won't allow it. Or whether you're in advertising hell, where Facebook is telling you what you can and can't say. It's really, really challenging for people. But it sounds like you found a way to overcome that. So how have you found the people for your challenge?

So I am like a multi poster, you have to keep showing up, you can't ask someone to, to do it once, you know, you have to keep reminding them, keep showing them you're there. So you know, emails to my mailing list and posts on Facebook, posts on LinkedIn, posts on Instagram, I'm just kind of trying out some Facebook ads at the moment, because it might be that I'm starting to exhaust my organic reach as well, and that's a chance to to move on to a wider audience as well. I'm also in the process of setting up affiliate links for my courses, which is when people have been through the course themselves and can rave about how great is, that they then can refer people into that as well. And earn sort of 10% back, which who doesn't want money for free, you know, in terms of passive dream, who doesn't want that? So that hopefully will will start coming about before too long as well. But I still find it just miraculous and wonderful that you can email somebody and tell them, I've got this thing, would you like to buy it? And then you get an email saying you've got an order. Who doesn't get bored of that?

Yeah, it's pretty, it's a pretty amazing feeling. And actually, obviously, you can you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but I think it might be useful to think about some numbers. Because people's heads will be going in one of two directions I think about numbers here. So how many people do you have on your mailing list, if you don't mind sharing?

So my mailing list is about, mine is, I recommend that you partition your mailing list, so that's my first tip, so have it as a main mailing list that people are signing up to, but via the different income, via the different streams, you can set it up so that they also end up in a different mailing list as well. So if they opt in for your, you know, your 10 top tips to teach yourself to do you know, tightrope walking, then you want them in the tightrope walking interested mailing lists, but you also want them in your generic mailing list as well. Because if they get bored of hearing from you generically, but they still want to hear from you as a tightrope walker, you know, then you want them still to receive the thing that they might convert to. But then you know, so if you've got that they can unsubscribe for that one, but there'll be with that one. So my slightly complicated answer, but in my generic mailing list, there's about 600 people now. But yeah, because I've got a slightly mixed market, I've got passive income streams, webinars and stuff, and the psychology, the tricky brain kit, the psychologists, on mental health professionals, I haven't necessarily put them all straight into my main mailing list, but I do email them to say, hey, if you'd like to be added to that, click here, just out of respect, really, because they might not want to have mental health products sold to them. So give people choices, you know, so they might be wanting to hear from you more, you know, I've also got this mailing list, I've also got this grief mailing list, you know, for the book, would you want to be added to that as well? If you do, click here, and I'll be in touch. You know, so it's not massive at all, you know, 600 people is not, is not enormous, especially when we're thinking of conversion rates. So you might realistically expect a 1 to 3 to 5% conversion rate for anything you're selling. But you know, if you've cultivated them, warmed them up, and they all about it, you might get slightly more, but in terms of open rate, is really common that you'll only get about up to 25% as an open rate. So please don't be dis... you know, don't be put off, if you kind of put all your heart and soul into this email and you like, only 24% opened it, it's really normal, really normal.

And this is one of the reasons I wanted to ask you about numbers, because I've spoken to lots of psychologists and therapists who have created an online course, and then they feel like it's been a flop. And then I'm like, well, okay, so how many people were in your audience? How many people were you marketing this too.? And maybe they have a mailing list of 100 and one person bought. And if that's true, you've done well, that's really good. You can tick the box, you've met the industry standards for for conversion rate, considering you were not an online marketer a couple of months ago. So if you get that one sale off a mailing list of 100, you should really be celebrating that, you know you've got something that works, now you just need to get more people. But but so often, our brains don't perceive it that way. And they think, and I don't think social media helps. Like I don't know if everybody gets targeted with these ads, but I get hundreds of ads every day about people having six figure launches for their course. Yeah. But it doesn't tell you about the fact that they spent five years building the audience for it beforehand. So I think when we're setting our goals, when we're thinking what does success for this look like? Being realistic about, okay, I've got, you know, 500 people on my mailing list, if I sell five of these, that is fantastic. And that's assuming it's 500 that are all in the market for it, which they're not always. I know when I started my list, I had really diverse group of people on there, and it's got more specific kind of as time has gone on.

That's why you get your more lead magnets in there so that you getting like different pots aren't you, different lists.

Such good advice to segment the list early on, and make sure that you only really email people about stuff they've told you they're interested in. And also something that I've learned to do in ConvertKit recently, is you can unsubscribe people from a specific campaign. So for example, we've got for Psychology Business School, we've got some free webinars coming up in August and September, that are going to be about you know, the basics of building a practice that have different streams in it and have, you know, a strong foundation for a practice you enjoy working in. Well, that's relevant for probably three quarters of people on my list. There's not, there's some people who either they know that they're just not interested right now, their NHS job is really busy or something, and they know they're not going to want to receive those emails. So having a button they can click and say, I don't want to hear about this specific thing, but I still want to hear about the podcast every Saturday, or I still want to hear about other stuff. I think that's just consent, isn't it? We're all about consent.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a really, it's a really good point. I think it's something I'm going to need to work out. Yeah, because I do like to email, you know, when I've got my challenges coming up, people are gonna know about it in the weekend before. And when I'm coming to the end of a challenge, it's a really great time to tell people more about the Feel Better Academy and to answer any questions. So there is a bit of an email sequence as a result of that. And that might feel a bit much like like you say, if you're not you're not interested in hearing that right now. But in terms of audience I was just looking on my phone, won't be rude, but just to check the size of my audience so that other people can know all of the stuff about me. So my LinkedIn is quite big. My LinkedIn is 4100 people. Please, if you'd like to connect, please do just send me a request to Dr. Marianne Trent. My Good Thinking Psychological Services page is, I think 1500. My Grief Collective page is just 999 people. If you'd like to be lucky 1000 please do come and join us. Instagram is bigger with a good stick with the Good Thinking. It's really hard work in grief space on Instagram, I'm finding. So that's not that big. That's probably a few 100. But YouTube, minimal, working on it, working on it. But yeah, I'm definitely not an influencer on YouTube. But you know, across all of those platforms, so I'm hitting it hard with the recruitment, and you still would only expect, you still only expect that 1 to 5% conversion. And also, lots of those people, especially on Facebook, are not going to be shown it, they're not going to be shown it. So you need to you need to be posting stuff that is, that is about what you're trying to sell. But also posting stuff that's engagement posts to get, so that Facebook gets the message that people like you.

Absolutely, absolutely, because I mean, no one knows exactly how the algorithm works. But we do know that if you have a post which is more kind of conversational, gets people chatting, there's lots of comments on it, then your next post that might be more directly about your programme is more likely to be seen. So that that's a really good tip. But just thank you for being honest about that, and sharing those numbers. Because it's it's really hard for people, I think when when you're bombarded with this idea that online business is easy, and building audiences is easy. It's really not. But actually I think it's a good thing, because while you've got smaller numbers going through your programme, you get to know those people. You get, you can really get involved with, you know, getting their feedback, doing, you know, these zoom webinars where you're actually getting to know them, finding out what they find really valuable, what they could perhaps do without. I mean, I'm still doing it for Psychology Business School, I set up calls with students so I can find out, you know, what did you value? What did you not value so much? I couldn't do that, could I if there were 1000s of people, that would be completely unmanageable. But you get this opportunity in those early days to really refine what you're doing. And then when you know it works, you know you've got the customer journey, or funnel, as you have heard me talk about on this podcast before, and that that customer journey works, and every stage of it is is perfect. That's when you've can put the ad budget behind it and get it out to new people. And it sounds like that's the exciting stage that you're at at the moment.

It is, it is. But also don't be disheartened if you do do a thing, like a webinar, or a five day challenge, or, you know, a live event or something. And people don't go for your thing. You know, they say it's really nice, it's not for me right now, I haven't got the money, or I haven't really got the time, because actually recently, I decided to put my cost up for the Feel Better Academy. Quite significantly, actually, because I've been given feedback, it's just too cheap. You know, you're not doing yourself a service by the fact that you're a qualified psychologist, and, you know, I think people almost might trust you less, because it's, you know, because of the price it is. And so I did put it up and I mailed my mailing list. And people who had previously been on my challenge signed up before I put my price up. So they might not be ready now, but they might still think one day I'm going to do that. And so just getting them over the edge might be you know, your price increase campaign. So don't just do something, tell this is what I've learned. Tell people about stuff you're doing. So I'm putting together a book at the moment called Grief nope, that's not that one, called The Clinical Psychologist Collective, which is people's stories about being a clinical psychologist so they can support the next generation, so that the next generation can read their stories and get advice and guidance. But what I'm learning is you don't just suddenly go, ta-da, here's this fully polished, fully finished product, here it is. I am telling people about it. You know, often I'm doing this thing. I'm really excited. Here's where we are with it today, you know, because it all builds part of your story and part of you know, like and trust.

Yeah, no I couldn't agree with that more. I think it's really, really important. And people like the behind the scenes stuff as well. I'm always really surprised by that. Because you wonder, you know, why is this relevant or interesting to you, but often it is, especially on social media platforms. So I'm not particularly good at this, I'm really working on trying to get to grips with what people like on Instagram. But behind the scenes over there seems to work really well. I mean, I would say to people, it's brilliant if you've got the kind of energy that that Marianne has, then being across all of those platforms can be brilliant, but even if, if you've got a bit less bandwidth and you think I can only really do one, then that's that's great too, like focusing on just one place where you can really get to know how it works, get to understand that algorithm. Because I know I tried to do instagram at the same time...

Keep showing up there. Keeps showing up there.

Yeah, exactly.

If you're looking at someone's Facebook page, and you know, and it's August and they've not posted since April, then you think, oh, I'll go somewhere else.

Yeah, true. Very, very true. And so even if people do land there, it's then it's like going, Janet Murray always uses the example that's a bit like going to a restaurant where there's like, maybe one or two people dining and the rest of the place is empty and there's tumbleweeds. You don't, it doesn't make you want to go in does it? Even though you don't know, the food might be the best food in town. If the atmosphere is a bit pants you don't...

There's cobwebs everywhere, that's not so, not so enticing, is it?

Yeah. So, I mean, I think those are all really good tips. And I hope that some people will be inspired now to kind of put something out there.

Hopefully not daunted, because I started from nowhere. So my whole business only started in putting it together, you know, the, the oxygen professional indemnity and all of that, August 2019. So I'm about to turn two, you know, in two months, so, you know? You've gotta start somewhere, why not start today?

And I love that you were planning this stuff. So early on, I really, you know, I know, I go on about it a lot, but I think our business plans, we A, we need a business plan from early on, and that's why this free training is so important to me that we're doing in August and September. But that plan should always have other revenue streams in it. Because otherwise...

You don't stop, you don't stop. Just keep, you know more ideas. You know, just keep growing, keep changing, keep adapting, keep being fresh, because the people who bought your thing once, they like you, you know.

Yeah, absolutely. So the people who have bought from you before are by far the most likely to buy from you again. So it makes sense, doesn't it to create stuff for them to follow up with. But I think even if y'know, you're only thinking maybe one year ahead, so you're thinking one project, and then maybe the next year, you allow yourself another one, I think it's really important to have that mindset from the beginning that I'm not going to spend all of my time doing one to one. Because even if you're full time in the NHS, you're not spending all of your time doing one to one work. I never did in any of my roles, never spent all my time doing one to one. But in private practice it's easy to fall into that. And I personally just believe it's very difficult to get the best out of yourself when you're, well they call it trading time for money, don't they, another phrase you hear a lot in the online marketing space, but where you're only paid for the hours you're facing somebody, it's just a recipe for burnout. And we're capable of so much, we've got so much creativity and so much drive, you would not get qualified as a mental health professional, without a significant amount of drive, creativity and ingenuity, because it's not an easy path to take. Whichever route, you know, I obviously know the most about clinical psychology, but I know counselling psychologists go through the mill as well. I know that psychotherapists go through the mill, I know that the high intensity therapists go through the mill, who doesn't? I think we all have a really difficult journey to get where we are, and that's what makes me so confident that if you're listening to this, you've absolutely got what it takes to bring this stuff into your business, and to make it work.

I don't see clients on a Monday and Friday, so I do things like this, or I do business development. And I honestly, when it's a Monday I'm like, Yes! Like, I love, I love all of my week, but Mondays and Fridays, I just live for them, you know, because it's just so nice to be able to not have to put makeup on if you don't want to, but just to do the things that really, you know, set my heart racing, you know, getting getting these things out there to the people that want them, but you just got to create them, give yourself permission to create them. And then that helps me, you know, manage and feel really well and balanced for my three days that I do do clinical work, because I'm not burned out. I'm not kind of sick of it. So yeah, the balance is key for me.

Yeah, I think that's such an important message. So is there anything when you look back on your journey, is there anything that you would have done differently if you did it again?

Start talking about it all sooner. Build that mailing list. So I've already got a mailing list for people who might want to buy, you know, the Clinical Psychologists Collective book. I've already got a mailing list for, you know, for another course that's coming that I haven't even started talking about yet really, because you've got to start gauging the interest for stuff as well, you know. So talk about it early, talk about it publicly. Ask people what they think to it, you know, get people on board, ask people what they want to know. You know, a conversation I had yesterday with someone, a Facebook ads manager, was, do you ever ask your audience where they hang out, which other celebrities they follow? Not I'm a celebrity, but you know which other pages they follow, who they like to, who they like to listen to? What, what other podcasts they do listen to? Because that all helps with the Facebook ads targeting of finding your dream client doesn't it as well? So I was like, I've never thought to ask them that. Never. So I will be asking people that in my next challenge.

Yeah, and this all makes for good algorithm helpful content as well, doesn't it? So, yeah, so many good reasons to do that. And I think you're right, you can never start building an audience for something too early, even when you're not really sure what it is, once you know who the ideal client group is, then start building a list of them. And you've already mentioned the best way of doing that, creating something highly valuable that they're going to want to download and give you their email address for. We've got, I'm sure I've got another podcast episode on that, and on a few strategies you can use on Facebook, in particular, to try and kind of move people towards your email list, because it's not, it's not easy. And again, just like with the course, you might make a freebie that flops. But probably it's not that it's not a valuable freebie, it's much more likely to be your messaging, it's much more likely that you haven't quite figured out the words that they would use, or that they would see themselves in. I think that's something that we were talking about before we came on podcast about, that that's such a challenge when we're creating any of these products. Finding the words that people resonate with, rather than the ones that we might use as clinicians, is the tricky bit. So I guess I just want to say to people, when if you try any of this stuff that we've been talking about today, and you don't get much of a reaction, it's not you. It's not that you're not providing valuable stuff. It's not that people don't like you, or that what you're putting out there is rubbish.

Probably not opening your emails.

Yeah. That will happen right? Like when I think about the first year that I had my mailing list, for a start, I was an idiot, and I put out an online course when I had a mailing list of 30, so...

You've got to start somewhere, I think that's all right.

Well, yeah, I suppose I was an idiot because I expected better results than were likely.

Okay, ah right. So you expect, yeah okay, so you were only going to get the 1%.

Yeah, exactly. If I'd known that conversion was the likelihood then I wouldn't have been so disappointed. But I don't think I knew what I was getting into. But also, I just hadn't quite nailed the messaging. And so people weren't really opening my emails. People weren't excited by the course that I was offering. But it wasn't that the content's bad, I know the content's really good. It's, I just had to tweak those things. And you can only do that...

Don't take it personally, you can't take it personally, you know. I was, I went to Tesco recently with the kids, and you know, there was a charity saleswoman there trying to get me to sign up to Breast Cancer Now, and it worked on that occasion. But you think how many charity salespeople you've said no, thanks to. And you know, I've signed up to that, and I've signed up to Air Ambulance, and Birmingham Children's. There's three ones that I do. And yet I have been asked 1000s of times, probably, haven't I really, I think every charity collector you see, because they don't just want 50p anymore, they want your, they want your direct debit, you know.

I know, and it never works on me, I'm just too frightened. I physically can't, if somebody that I wasn't expecting bank information.

60 pounds a year.

Well it's not the money, I don't mind, I mean, well, obviously, you know there is a limit on the money that I would give, but I'm it's... I don't know if it's like the inner pensioner in me, but I'm just frightened of giving anybody bank information. So I have to come to you. So I always say, you know, if you can give me a website or a phone number that I assertively ring, I will then give you my bank information, and nothing else they could do would persuade me. So if they take that personally...

They've changed it, so let this be assured for you, that they've changed it, that they take your mobile number, and then they phone you whilst you're there. Like with an automated thing, you type in your card details and it's all done like that. So I was impressed as well.

Oh clever, that is clever. They never get that far with me though.

I was in a good mood, you know, we were on half term, the sun was shining, you know, you know, it was it was in their favour. I bet she couldn't believe her luck when we stopped, you know, even though I had a few small children with me.

This is the great point about marketing, though. Think about all of those factors that determine whether they make the sale. I know, it's not really a sale when it's a charity thing, but you know, making the sale.

I think she still got commission, so it was a sale.

Oh okay. But she, and her like sales pitch if you like, was such a tiny component of whether she got the yes or not. And that's what we need to remember. It's like, yes, you are a part of it...

It'd be awkward getting out the car. I'd've been like, no, sorry.

And it's the same when you launch a course, or when you put out your free challenge, or a free downloadable, there's so much that influences whether that works or not. And your content is actually one of the smallest parts of it. Because if people access the content, I bet they think it's awesome. I mean, I think if you're listening to this, you probably create really good quality stuff, the difficult bit is getting people to access it, once they do, it's going to be great. All of those other factors influence whether they access it or not. And you've kind of got to see the fun in learning to try and play the game to get those factors to align in your favour more often. And I think where it's changed for me, because I mean you've you've gotten this journey so much faster than I did. But in the first two years, I was beating myself up continuously, I always felt like I was failing, I'd got it wrong. You know, it was all about me, basically. And it was only after a couple of years of that and getting a business coach who really helped me to kind of change my perspective that I took myself out of the equation, saw it for what it was. And now, I was saying to you before we came on this call, I could not enjoy tinkering with Facebook ads more. I love tinkering with sales pages, landing pages, being like, oh, will this change my percentages? If I just change the wording here? Like that stuff's become pleasurable, because it's no longer about my self esteem, it doesn't affect my identity anymore. And yeah, I just think if we can get people to that place quicker by sharing experiences like yours, hopefully by sharing mine, that's really what I'm aiming to do with this podcast. Release the shame!

Yeah, give yourself permission to create, go forth and prosper.

Yes, and what a lovely note to finish on. So thank you so much, Marianne, that's been really valuable. If people want to buy any of your amazing products that we've talked about or connect with you, where can they find you?

So on LinkedIn, I'm Dr. Maryam Trent. On Facebook, I'm Good Thinking Psychological Services, and Instagram, Good Thinking Psychological, I believe. And then my website is www.goodthinkingpsychology.co.uk.

Fantastic. And I'll link to all of that in the show notes so you can find all the links there. Brilliant. Thank you, Marianne,

Thank you so much for inviting me, it's been lovely chatting with you.

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