Washington Square. On air is the audio town square for the Washington Square Review. Lansing Community College's literary journal. Writers, readers, scholars, publishing professionals, citizens of the world, gather here and chat about all things writing. Hey there. This is Melissa Ford Lucken, editor for the Washington Square Review. I'm here today with Christopher Russell, whose short story 15 Minutes is in our Summer 25 issue. Hey there, Christopher. Hello. It's good to see you. Tell us a little nutshell of your short story.

Yeah, so my short story is it's a flash piece under a thousand words. And basically the premise is it all takes place within a 15 minute car ride, hence the title 15 minutes. And it's basically just where the protagonist Wesley is in this car and you can sense that he's immediately tense and just wants to get out. They're on their way to an airplane. And as the story progresses, we sort of unravel Wesley's anxieties and reasons why he's just so anxious about everything. And it turns out that he has a wife who's pregnant and he's also cheating on his wife because he works remotely at a different place out of state. So basically just delving into his psyche, his guilt. And that's paralleled with the recent passing of his grandfather, who is sort of like the moral opposite of where Wesley stands right now in his life. So sort using that as a parallel for his guilt and sort of moral compass to come to terms with like what he did. And yeah, so that's, that's what I tried to accomplish in that piece.

So. Yeah. Okay, how did you come to write?

Actually started in a workshop class getting my PhD at Western Michigan University. So, yeah, it was just a workshop class that I wrote this flash piece. It initially was called 30 minutes and it was same premise, but it was just a longer piece in the span of 30 minutes and just with my peers comments and my professor's comments, I really just wanted to make it more tense. So that's why I decided to cut down on the word length. And initially Trav or Wesley wasn't. He didn't have any infidelity or anything. He was just sort of anxious about dating Meg, who was Travis's sister. But their relationship was a secret. So then just again, through my workshops, through the comments of my peers and my professor, we thought it would be more interesting if instead of hiding their relationship, we're hiding something else. And the relationship is already publicly known. So that's sort of how that changed throughout the revision process.

And yeah, okay. Talking about the workshop experience, a Little bit. You took it in and so other people read it and they give you comments and that kind of thing. How did you decide which of the comments you wanted to. To embrace and which ones to set aside?

Yeah, that's a good. That's a good question. I've done workshops for a long time. I started college in 2018 and now I've been here for three different degrees. So I've. I've taken a workshop classes and I've just heard a lot of things, also said a lot of things that may or may not be helpful for the wide discussion and context of writing. The biggest sort of influence in this piece was my professor, this B. Nissen, who's just a great, great writer, great professor. And she just really helped me show how to bring the immediacy and how to bring the tension in a story. Even small things like adding a tighter time frame to get to the airport. Small things like Wesley really just having to go to the bathroom and just being unable to. She just showed me the importance of providing that tension that everybody, every human experiences. That's more than just, I have anxiety. And I'm anxious about this one event because that's really what the first draft was. It was really just a more just glimpse into Wesley's life as someone who just deals with a lot of anxiety and unrational anxiety. And I sort of used that because that's just me from personal experience, just wrestling with anxiety. But yeah, she was just really helpful in showing me that, yeah, characters can have these anxieties, but also, how do we make it more convincing or more appealing to an audience? Like adding a bunch of different variables that we can't really imagine otherwise other than just living it. So, yeah, this view was the main influence in those revisions. But, yeah, I guess it's just a matter of just embracing the revision and drafting process where I do all of the comments that my peers say, and then after I get there, I can see if it lands or if it doesn't, and then I can just again, rework with rework that I would say that revision and drafting is like my favorite part of the writing process.

Oh, that's unusual.

I know. Yeah, it's really hard for me to just put out one idea, but once the idea is out there, then it's really easy for me to just rearrange and reframe and do all that like, sort of puzzle piecing together that I really like, because I think I just get too caught up in what it should be in that first draft that once I'm done and let it sit, then I can go back and sort of repack everything together. Yeah.

I was saying that's unusual because it seems like many writers just hate the revising process.

Yes.

Because the whole thing can just fall apart. You start moving one thing and, you know, the next thing. You know, the part that you had that you loved now doesn't work anymore, and that's got to go. And it's kind of like rehabbing an old house. Right. You pull out the sink in the kitchen and you just don't know what's going to happen next.

Yeah.

You mentioned having a vast workshop experience. I'm wondering if you can kind of think back and puzzle over what makes a really good and useful workshop experience versus one that seems less productive for you.

That's a good, good question, too. Yeah. I've been through a lot. Through undergrad, through my Master's, now my PhD. And, you know, one big gripe that I have with workshops is just the idea that what we have to submit has to be of what we do. Where, I know there's just like a big culture nowadays, I would say, where people just want to submit things that they've worked on for years and things that are really sharp and really fine, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like, I get. I get that point where, like, we want to show the best to the people that we respect and the peers and. And classmates and professors, but then I can. I think that can just sometimes stifle creativity where, you know, I'm not. I don't want to submit something that I've. I really value and treasure because then I can work on that privately with, like, the people that I trust, my close friends and all that stuff. What I really value in workshops is just bringing in the raw stuff. Things that, you know, maybe I have ideas for that may not go anywhere, but they may. But just showing myself just as a learner and someone that's not necessarily trying to prove something, but someone that's just trying to better my own craft through starting at the. At the basics. So that's what I think can really differentiate a good workshop versus a bad workshop. Yeah. Again, like, the. The peers can also make or break it. I'm really lucky being at Western, where we really just. Just support and embrace everyone where there. It's not really competition here in the. In this atmosphere where we don't have to think of the best things to say. We can just, like, be honest and open with what our comments are. So. Yeah.

What do you Think works against a good workshop experience.

Honestly, I think sometimes when there are no guidelines or no, like, criteria or different things with workshops where if. If we're just allowed to submit almost anything that we have, no matter the length, no matter the genre, type of writing, whatever, I think that can honestly be a little bit hard for the creative process because, like, if we're in a workshop with 10, 15, 20 different people and there's no, like, criteria and we can submit however long we want or whatever we write. Again, if we. If we're trying to submit the best thing that we already have, I think that can just stifle the writing process. So I really like the classes and the workshops that are more structured with, like, the types of things that we submit that, you know, I love like a flash class because there's that one big criteria that we. We have to be under a thousand words. And that can really just challenge what we write about and how we write about it. Again, delivering tension in a different way and things like that. But, yeah, I really just love prompts. Maybe that's a little bit different. But I love having guidelines that I can follow because then having those specific things that I have to try to attain with my writing, that can help me be a better writer. Because then, like, I have something to work for and I have something to work on, maybe a specific craft or a specific aspect of writing, that really helps me.

Yeah, I can see how that would work really well for somebody who perhaps had not done any flash writing and they go into a workshop. And now, because that's the requirement for the workshop, it's got to be flash. Then. Now they're. They're pushed or encouraged, however you want to frame that, to try the new thing, you know, within a context. And they also will get to see how their reads compared to other people's and all the different possibilities. So it's an apples to apples kind of comparison rather than apples to oranges. And I don't mean compared like, you know, who's this better or worse? Just how one person did it this way and someone else did it that way. And so it gives you more variety within one smaller kind of framework, rather than just variety. Free for all.

Right. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I could. I could see the importance of also knowing what to expect as the recipient of the workshop pieces, because when you're in a workshopping process and you're getting a bunch of things, it's. It can be helpful to know that these are all this kind of thing. Yeah, I have another workshop Question for you. Just because you said that you've, you know, been so. In so many different workshops, what do you think about the author speaking to their own piece? Do you think it's helpful to hear the author talk either before the piece is read or after? After you know, how much of the author should show up? Because some people may not be aware. But a lot of times in a workshop, pieces are read and the pieces are discussed, and the author isn't really asked anything about the piece until perhaps at the end. So what do you think about that? Because, you know, obviously there is a trend out there, and there's a lot of scholarship about changing the workshop dynamic and the whole. The whole tradition.

Yeah, again, that's a good question. And I can see it both ways, where having the author take a step back, I can see the pros to that. And also, like, through my experience, like, I work at the writing center, where I'm the assistant director of the writing center here at Western, where that sort of writing process is a lot more collaborative. So I can also see the benefits of, like, working with a piece of writing where it's more direct and collaborative, where the author can speak and collaborate. There, in terms of a writing workshop class, I do appreciate having, like, me, if I'm the writer, me being able to take a step back, because what I want to do, I want my writing to speak for itself. So, like, if I think about it being a published piece or being somewhere in a magazine article, whatever, there. There's not going to be an opportunity for me to sort of, like, rebuttal, rebuttal. Or like, offer my own thoughts. So by presenting my work as its own work, then I can sort of mimic what I want the end product to be where I don't have that say, because then once it's out there, then it's out there. I do also like the collaborative approach. So what we do at Western a lot here is we submit our piece. If you want, you can offer some sort of, like, context, like, this is an excerpt of a novel, or this is not a flash piece, but I want to turn it into a flash piece, or, like, some sort of things to, like, create a framework. So then the. The critics and peers can say, okay, so now I sort of know how to tailor what I'm going to say in order to be effective for you. And I've done that too. Where I'm like, I'm really concerned about, like, my narrative voice. Does it work in present tense? Is it too. Is it not tense enough having that in first person or whatever. So, like, having initial questions I think can be helpful. But yeah, I really just like having that silence for 15 minutes, 20 minutes, however long the workshop is, just letting everybody talk and analyze it for what it is. Because that just helps me get a lot of insight where, like, I can see other perspectives that I wouldn't have otherwise. And by jumping in and out so of conversation, that could stifle that a little bit.

It also gives you, you the advantage when you know that you won't be speaking. You can really just focus on what other people are saying and you're, you're not ready to have it. You don't have to have that readiness to answer a question or discuss something. You can really just sit back and absorb it.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Just being able to absorb the, the feedback is really helpful. And I do like having times at the end, maybe like five minutes just to like, have questions or clarifications after everyone's done speaking. I think that can be helpful too. But yeah, just embracing the silence, I think is a really good part of, of the revision and just writing process as a whole.

And as you mentioned, most writers will have friends that they can talk with about the, you know, talk about the P's, hash it out, you know, so it's, it's a different, like, mindset to just, as I said, just absorb it.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

The other thing that's tricky about workshopping is knowing when to use the comments. And since you mentioned that you work in a writing center, writing centers, as you said, are usually more collaborative. Sit down with a student. What are you doing here? Why are you doing this? And you're really kind of like breaking down into all of, like, what they're thinking and actually doing and that sort of thing. So in both of those instances, either the more formal workshop or the collaborative kind of mini workshop that you have in the writing center, people come away with feedback and comments. So how do you develop a skill over time to know what is really helpful for you and what you're just going to set aside right away?

That's a good question. And it's something that sort of. You just develop over time and just keep redeveloping over time. The one thing that I do to sort of work towards that is just to have countless drafts and to never, like, delete something forever or just like, if I listen to comments, I always start a new draft, a new piece of paper, and then I put my stuff there and I Can change it and rearrange it however I want. And then after I give some space to that, then I like to go back to my original copies to be like, okay, so this is what I changed. Is what I changed. Is that actually helping the story or did I change it just to, for the sake of change? I can, I think that can be a big thing with, with workshops or just with just revision processes is deciphering the difference between like an important change and a needless change. And I think a lot of times that is just an easy thing to do with revision processes where I'm changing this just because the next that's different. But by having each own like sort of copy and space on Microsoft Word or Google or whatever, I can always come back to it later and say, okay, so I changed this and I really like, I really like how I changed the narrative voice here. But now like this character doesn't seem as like compelling now that I changed to this thing. So then I can go back and like insert here and there. Just, just again, just an experiment with it. I think that's really what we're adding is just experimenting and seeing what lands and what doesn't.

So yeah, I appreciated a lot what you said about change for improvement versus change just for change. That makes it different. And I think most writers have certainly done both. So it's a little bit of trial and error. You know, when you first start writing and you first start using workshop feedback, you may find that you've done those changes just for change and now you just have something that's different, that has a new set of, you know, issues or problems.

Yeah.

And you're just, you've just got, you know, two sets of different looking problems.

Yes.

How do you feel like talking with other people about their writing process helps you with your own writing process? Because you do that in your teaching and you also do that in the writing center. So you're talking about writing with a lot of people.

Yeah, that's. I think that's what makes me a better writer is just being able to listen and hear other different approaches where again, if I'm thinking about the writing center, where so many different people have different approaches to different kinds of writing. So like hearing an academic talk about how they outline a paper versus how a creative person outlines their stories, like those are two different, entirely two different genres of writing. But also there are a lot of different things that we can do to sort of piece them together to like maybe change the way that we outline to fit this piece that I necessarily wouldn't necessarily have done otherwise or something. Same things like the way that different people from undergrads to graduates, people in leadership positions, how they sort of work with research and work with just changing their pieces and like changing their arguments, their logic. That really helps me just seeing that I have one way of doing it, but it's not the only way and it's not necessarily the right way. And that's really what I love to embrace here at the writing center is just helping everybody find their own voice that works for them. And because like the same thing as with creative writing workshops, the same happens at the writing center where I can work with a student and I can be giving them suggestions for how to improve, but it's really up to the student and up to the client to do that. Because, yeah, I could be giving insight, but also I could just be changing for the sake of change. So yeah, it's really just a personal thing that we have to just sort of work with and work through and keep pushing. But yeah, I don't know if that answers your question.

I think it does. It sounds like just the initial awareness of that there are multiple ways to accomplish the same task that can be helpful. And then I was wondering if occasionally you do see someone using a new method either for outlining or even just a perspective on the way that they think about the process of writing. Have you ever gone home and thought, oh, I'm gonna try that, you know?

Yeah. One thing that initially sticks out to me is just the way that my, my boss, Alexa, how she embraces the writing process and outlining, where really for her outlining is just that like spoken out collaboration where like we can just be at our tables together and then, and she's just telling me her ideas and then she just sort of works through everything in her brain as she's speaking out loud. Which is something that I had never done before where like I always had to like write it out loud or write it on the page and I had to just like put everything on the page before I even like started to like break it down. But yeah, what she does, she just really loves just like talking and stuff, speaking and having that collaboration and communication with someone else. And so that's some one strategy that I really do now where I either go back to her or I go to my other friends and I just talk about my ideas. And by having it spoken out in word, that changes it than if I just wrote it out on the page. And I do both still. But yeah, just like that way of talking about writing has helped me a lot.

That's interesting to think about how that human interaction of talking it through with someone can make such a difference in the way that you think about your own thing. So even if they haven't given you a specific suggestion, you can generate your own suggestions to yourself. Just me talking. That's cool. I know that you've done some work on writer's block and destigmatizing writer's block and writer's anxiety. Talk a little bit about the work that you've done in that and what you found.

Yeah. So again, to bring back Alexa, that was one of our ideas at the writing center. Just to give a presentation about, like, what does writer's block actually mean? And what are some ways that we can go about dealing with that and dealing with writing anxiety. One of the biggest things that we wanted to address in that presentation was just how we all are our own individual writer, and we all have our own individual way of processing things. But also, it's important to note what stage of the writing process you're in, and that can just help break it down and allow us to take it piece by piece. Because I think a lot of the times people even like me. I'm really guilty of this. Is like, if I'm starting a piece of writing, I can get so caught up in what it should be that I'm not able to move forward to what is on the page right now. Because, like, I'm not thinking about point A or point B. I'm thinking about point X, Y, and Z, where that's really not where I'm at right now. That's okay, because I'm just starting this process. So, yeah, really just embracing where we are and meeting ourselves where we're at. So, like, are we really in the drafting phase, or are we still just in the outlining just ideas phase? Or, like, is this ready for submission? Or do we still have to do some revising? So thinking of, like, the writing process as a circle to where, like, the circle starts at, like, outlining ideas, then brainstorming, then drafting, then, like, revising, then refining, then, like, polishing, submitting, like, that sort of thing where it's all, like, a continuous circle. Whenever we start something, we're always going to that circle. And that has helped me a lot. Just deal with my own writer's block. Because then I can realize, am I really just, like, stuck, or am I telling myself I'm in a different spot than I really am? And another way of just dealing with that is to just write through it. I know that can seem like a lot easier said than done, but, like, if I'm really working, if I'm really stuck on this idea, like, the best way of really doing it is just to. To keep fleshing out that idea and keep, like, working with it and get in that dirt, get in the grind and just, like, wrestle through that idea. Which, again, is easier said than done. But I think that's really important too, just to. To think of writing as a sort of habitual thing where I'm setting time to do this and I might not get to where I want to get today, but this little dent is going to make a difference because I'm going to keep making that continual dent, which is also helpful for me.

It sounds like a commonality between both of those concepts is to not get overwhelmed by what you're trying to create at the end and to let yourself be in the moment where you are either in one case where you are, you know, cognizant of the. The moment that you are. Like you said, I'm doing research, I'm outlining, I'm drafting. Or in the other case, when you just can't figure out which one of those you're in, stop worrying about where you are in the process and just be in whatever it is that you're in and then, you know, write through it. But in, like you said, in both cases, try not to get too caught up in what it's going to look like in the end. I think that I. I have talked to a lot of writers who have this beautiful, amazing story idea, and the idea of. Of writing the story is so overwhelming because the vision in your mind is so beautiful and sparkly and amazing and it's a movie, but you're only on page, like, 36, and you're like, I'm already ruining it. So I know. So actually writing it kind of ruins it because it's not nearly as perfect as what you want it to be in the end.

Yeah, yeah, I. I definitely have that issue where, like, I have this grand idea for this. For this, like, novel or whatever, but then I'm like, on, like, what you said, I'm on page 30, and I'm like, but I'm not here yet. And that can just be really, just defeating. Like, I'm not where I want to be. Or like, this, this sentence, this paragraph, this dialogue, whatever, is, like, clunky and it's bad. And just embracing that. Like, yeah, I'm going to write a bad draft. And my dialogue is not going to be perfect. And, you know, the pacing is going to need work. And, like, just because I have a bad or piece of writing right now doesn't mean that I'm a bad writer. So. Yeah, really, just changing that mindset has helped me a lot.

I love that. Just because I have a piece of bad writing doesn't mean I'm a bad writer. I think that's. We should all have that on a little placard, right? Put it around the house, you know, on the fridge or in the bathroom mirror, wherever. Just keep. Yeah, it's only bad today. It's going to be better tomorrow once I fix it. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

All right, well, before I ask you my final question, tell us a little bit about the cat behind you, because we are wondering.

Yes, this is. This is campus. Our nickname, Ham. Big Ham. He is a Scottish. Straight year. He just turned 10 years old, actually, just a couple of days ago. I got that picture just on a canvas a couple of years back. And then when I moved into this office, I didn't have any decoration, so then I added. I added Ham. So that's. That's my cat right there.

But easy to feed. Very easy to feed.

Yeah, he loves. He loves to eat.

All right, so if people would like to find you online or stay in touch with you, where's a good place for them to find you?

I have an Instagram page that has my full name, so not my author name. It's Chris Colegrove. C O L E G R O V E. That is on Instagram. And I'm also, again, I'm at the writing center at Western Michigan University. So if you're. If you're a student here, if you're in Kalamazoo, you can also reach out to me there.

All right, beautiful. Well, thanks a lot for coming on and talking to me today.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for stopping by the audio town square of the Washington Square Review. Until next time, this has been the Washington Square Review on air from Lansing Community College. To find out more about our writers, community and literary journal, visit lcc. Edu wsl Writing is messy, but do it anyway.