Welcome back. I hope. Welcome back to Snap Decisions, the podcast that gives you a behind the scenes look at the decisions that shape how products and brands and people present themselves to the world, hopefully with some very interesting conversations along the way with interesting folks. Good morning, Brian.

Hey John.

So Brian, I have a, I have something that's going today for you.

What do you got?

Christmas gift.

Ooh. Wow.

Take a minute. We'll wait.

I'm gonna have to say the original Nintendo,

Okay.

you know, I, uh, we were desperate for it, um, my siblings. So,

What was the number one game

well, we played a lot of, tech mobile and, paper boy. And obviously the Marrier Brothers stuff, but, Tetris, Million Hours on Tetris. So we didn't have an Atari, and we didn't have any of the other early video game consoles, so that one was the, the life changer for us. I wish I could rip the ones out of my kids.

Yeah, I was never a big gamer, probably because my parents would never buy any, any sort of gaming system, or because they became popular after I was, grown. but yeah, I'm glad I haven't had to have that debate too much with my kids.

Okay, well, what was your, your best, uh, Christmas gift?

My best Christmas gift ever was, uh, a slot car racing track.

Oh, man,

I mean, didn't come anywhere near living up to the TV commercials.

I can never keep the darn thing on the track,

the cars fall off the track all the time, or there's always one car that didn't work, so you couldn't actually race somebody. but I remember just being just so thrilled to open that up.

and put it together. It was like the, the, just the intense, excitement to just actually get on there and play as you're putting the slots together or, your dad helping you put it together.

So good.

Yeah. That's a, that's a good one. That's a good one. I remember that one as well.

I, I got a, worse Christmas gift experience. Wasn't mine, but my sister's and my brother. Yeah. My brother came walking into the living room. We were all in presence and he walked in with this like aquarium.

Yeah.

My sister was getting a teddy bear hamster.

Yeah.

It had crawled and pushed up the wooden homemade lid. My brother made, but couldn't get out. So it was dangling near the edge of the aquarium. So her Christmas gift was just basically screaming.

Tortured.

It was terrible.

My, my, my favorite story on A Worst Gift was, uh, after I got out of college, I moved back home with my family for, uh, about six to nine months. And for Christmas that year, I got luggage, which was a signal, signal to move out.

Wow. Not even sort of subtle luggage, luggage and moving boxes.

Now, as now I sit and wait for my mom to explain that again.

Uh, all right. Well, listen, uh, speaking of the holiday season, let's talk about some retail shopping today. And in particular, I know you are a digital marketing guru, but I want to talk about good old fashioned brick and mortar.

Bring it.

Uh, so to warm us up, remember back when Barnes Noble was kind of being demonized as the 800 pound gorilla who killed the small local bookseller?

Yes. How could it? Yeah,

and now we're kind of cheering for them as the underdog against Amazon. It's kind of amazing.

it, right?

Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about the fact that Barnes Noble as this country's biggest brick and mortar bookseller. part of their back to book selling basic strategy. ,They are redesigning a lot of their individual stores to have an individual look. So, no longer requiring the green and brown and the, you know, consistency. but letting stores reflect kind of where they are and the type of shopper. This is on the heels of, the decision to allow individual stores. Sell books that appealed to their local market. So it's not the same books in every Barnes and Noble. Well, now the stores get to be reflective of a local community and no longer the same thing, store and stay were out very different from what we've come to expect from a, you know, a large retail chain. So, this is led by a CEO named James Daunt. He founded his own bookstore chain in the UK, and then rescued Waterstones, which was Britain's largest bookstore chain. A hedge fund Elliott Advisors, bought a majority stake on Waterstones back in 2018. And the next year it bought Barnes Noble in 2019 and put Daunt in as the Barnes Noble CEO. Obviously this is really counter to traditional retail strategy. So I have a snap decision for you, Brian. Good idea or bad idea.

I mean, I think it's, I think it's awesome just thinking completely different and saying, you know what, everybody always tells us to do this and never, it's not working. Like what's, what's flip it on its head and say, let's try to go back to at least pretending we're an independent bookstore or come off like that.

And that's his ethos, that's his ethos, right? He started like that and that's, that's what he's trying to bring to, uh, the Barnes and Noble chain now.

because, if you think of what a bookstore is supposed to be, it's supposed to be that. Like, here's the books that we recommend, we're book readers, we're putting the things in front of you that we know are good, and you know, I was doing some research on this when you came up with the idea, and the one funny quote was just like, they had people designing the stores who've never read a book or helping them organize where to put books,

Yeah.

you know? And so, going back to the heart of who they are and what they're supposed to be, I mean, it's, it's really interesting. I do find it ironic, I guess, is the word on just the, you know, they're the corporate bad guys and now they're trying to become the independent bookshop, that's kind of.

And even more ironic that a private equity company would come in and, you know, usually they're all about efficiency and streamlining, right? This is the opposite, right?

I'm just fascinated by this because it really it's goes against every single thing that we've ever learned and practiced as marketers.

Exactly.

you're trying, you're always trying to find ways to especially with a brand be more consistent, and have that pay off as an experiential thing. And in this case, it's more about just the. Yeah. The idea of being that thought leader in books. So, I give them a lot of credit for that. I mean, I want to go now and check these out to see what they're like.

Road trip.

yeah, road trip, let's report back on some of that. I, I did, I did read a funny quote from an NPR article about this. And it was like, somebody was saying, you know, they're trying to capture the more intimate independent bookstore feel when it's still just a Barnes and Noble. But.

Yeah,

But I do love the, you know, the CEO you mentioned, he said that they're not having any architects doing any design at any stage. There's no interior designer.

I know. Right. And they're great. I circled that quote too. And as a, brand marketer at heart. I'm with you. Like, you know, my initial reaction was just wait, we always strive for consistency and especially at retail. and I love that. He said, you know, the identity people would have a complete crisis kind of talking about brand consultants just because it's breaking all the rules. And I think that's actually one of the reasons. Maybe this is starting to work. Because it is starting to work. According to some Barnes and Noble comments in the New York Times article renovation they did in the Upper West Side of New York cost about 4 million and it's on track to pay for itself within a couple of years.

Yeah, I mean, they're looking at their sales like doubling this year in some of their stores, which is fascinating. I think post pandemic and now that we're in this digital first world, I think it really provides a lot of opportunities for, the retail experience to be much more experiential and to try things out this way and do it a little bit differently. I mean, honestly, some of these places, you know, what else do they have to lose, especially a brand like Barnes and Noble that. Yeah. Isn't never going to be out Amazon online, but what they do have on them is space and an experience. So how do you use that to your advantage? so it'll be interesting to see where this goes and then, you know, two other brands kind of fall suit and tries things like this, or just. Out of the box ideas, you know?

I will use your last comments there about the idea of creating retail experiences is a pivot to, maybe a little bit of a holiday gift to anybody who's listening, which is some retail secrets, you know, brick and mortar retail secrets that are designed to make you spend more. I think coming into the holiday season. It's a good conversation.

Yeah, I love it.

All right. So, so we all know some of the standard tricks, right? Discounts on bulk buying, a bunch of stuff you don't need, but you buy it anyway because it sounds like a good price. Prices that end in, 0. 95 or 0. 99, you know, you, you, you see the number before

John. It's cheaper.

It's cheaper, it's only 16, not 16. 99. The idea of displaying complimentary items next to each other, which is called cross merchandising, so you go and you see the raspberries and oh look, there's cream and pastry shells right next to it. Those weren't on your list, but now they're in your shopping basket.

They have a way to do that online, too, a little bit.

Yes, they're great at it online. Like, so again, those are sort of the standard tricks that I think we all know about. How about some of these that people might not realize? placing expensive items at eye level.

Interesting.

Yep. You know, trying to save some money? Look down! or end caps just because there's a big display of a lot of stuff at the end of the aisle doesn't mean it's on sale. It just means it's there and that, you know, someone paid a slotting fee for it to show up there. here's one I didn't realize, but now that I think about it, yeah, bigger shopping carts. Have you noticed this?

No,

Yeah. So shopping carts have gotten bigger over the past few years.

I didn't know that. I thought it was going the other way.

Nope. So if you want to save some money, grab one of those hand baskets, although I've noticed my local grocery store. doesn't even have them anymore.

Really?

No more handbaskets. That was a COVID thing, I guess, because we were touching stuff. I don't know why. but if there's those smaller carts or handbasket, grab those, because if you've got the bigger cart, you're going to see it look kind of empty and you're going to start to fill it with stuff.

Interesting.

essentials, the back of the store. There's a reason the milk and the butter and the eggs are in the back of the store.

Right. That's what I was going to go for. Yeah, the eggs and milk all the way on the opposite side.

Yep.

My local supermarket during COVID, they did a remodel and. The entrance changed to the other side of the store and then they had to move everything in the store so that the eggs and milk were in the back.

Mm hmm.

That's tried and true right there, the

Tried and true. Alright, so Brian, here's a little pop quiz for you. Would you be more likely to buy a product that has 50 percent more product for the same price, or it's discounted as 33 percent off? Which one would you buy?

probably the 50 percent more.

Alright, well, you are like 71 percent of consumers according to the University of Minnesota. even though those two price constructs are kind of the same in terms of a Price per unit, 71 percent of people would go with buying something that was labeled as 50 percent more versus 33 percent off.

Interesting.

I'm no math major, so I can't check that, but I do believe they are on a per unit basis about the same. I've got more on the grocery store front because, um, oh, you know what? Here's a good tip. in addition to obviously just doing math, and looking for unit prices. If you use, an app to do your grocery shopping,

Okay.

usually, and I think I mentioned this to her in my granola rant, it's easier to see the price per ounce or pound or whatever. It's a lot easier to do your, your comparison shopping if you're using a tool like that. So, related to that, Brian, another quick question for you. Online grocery shopping. Including pickup and delivery, right? So you order at home, you pick up or you get a delivery. Is that increasing or decreasing?

Why do I feel like this is a trick question? I mean, I would think that it's increasing.

Of course, you'd think it's increasing

It's not.

because you're a digital guy, and I would have thought so too. It's down 7%, July 2023 down 7 percent from July 2022. COVID, I think, got us all thinking we'll do that forever. But it has gone down a little bit. Not for me, because I think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Grocery

Yeah. Words there. I would say that, you know, going back to the post COVID type of conversation, I feel like COVID was the final frontier on this almost like. Business first and now we're like they went into the convenience for the customer, you know, and they put the customer first and and you look at stores. And so in our region of the universe, uh, while while the, um, convenience store, it took them forever to do pick up in your car or delivery because they want you to walk through the store. And, you know, a lot of these stores. Didn't really put the resources to do it right or to actually make it convenient. And the positive thing coming out of COVID is that they finally gave people the option to do it that way and made it okay to do that. And, I don't know if, supermarkets are going to bury the milk and the eggs and the digital app, but, I feel like. They've accepted that convenience is good and, um, with so many options now to buy and, and to do things, they know that they need to, you know, put the customer first, which I didn't feel like they were fully doing that until COVID.

I think you're right. And, you know, thinking about my use of the grocery store app, they are getting better at that cross merchandising, you know, putting some stuff in front of me before I get to my milk and my eggs. But, That's the biggest thing for me is, well, in addition to the convenience and the experience is good now, right, it's remained relatively strong, is I'm not falling prey to those tricks we just ran through. I'm not buying random things that I see because I went shopping when I'm hungry or whatever. I'm not doing those impulse buys. I'm not susceptible to the end cap promotion because I've got a list in my head or written down. And then I go into that and I just buy the things on that list and the kind of those ancillary purchases don't happen. And I think that saves me way more than, even if I was paying for a fee, which I'm not, but

Yeah. You're, you're a showroom shopper, huh?

showroom shopper and PS, uh, I really, when I do go to the grocery store, I no longer remember where everything is and it's a nightmare to do it manually. So I'm like, I'm happy to have someone else do that for me.

one, one thing I do not like is when they're out of something and then they automatically

Oh, yeah.

else and it's, you know, 90 percent it's not the right thing.

Yeah. That is that the

I can't call, I can't quantify that 90 percent stat I just threw out there, but, uh, I'm going to call it 90%.

That's right. Look, if anyone's checking us, uh, I urge them not to. Um, another, another trick is, this is not grocery store specific, but, some other things that I uncovered getting ready to talk about this topic is, removing dollar signs, which happens in particular if you go to restaurants on menus. Guess what? Makes us spend more.

no way.

Way. Isn't that crazy?

I never, I would never thought of that.

Yep. some retailers, fashion retailers, have distorted mirrors in dressing rooms to make you look thinner because we tend to buy things when they make us look good.

Yes, yes, yes. I have heard that before.

I had not heard that. I was, I probably shouldn't be so naive, but I found that distressing. so anyway, you know, I think, you know, most people know that the best marketing elicits some kind of emotional response. and we also know that the five senses are really good at triggering emotion. in fact, do you know which, which sense tends to trigger some of the most powerful recollections and emotions?

I'm gonna say Smell?

Yeah. Surprisingly smell. and I think we've all seen that or smelled that when we're in a retail environment where smells can draw us in. That's obvious, right? You, I mean, good luck walking by an Annie Ann or a Cinnabon, right? but there's a reason the bakeries at the front of the grocery store. So you walk in, you smell, it smells amazing. Now you're hungry, you walk around the store and that scent prompts you to spend more money. Even simple smells are better than complex smells There is a study by Washington State University that found that like just a really simple smell versus kind of like these layered and kind of hard to identify smells had people spending 20 percent more at a home furnishings store, which is astounding to

I saw a wild stat by this thing called the Scent Marketing Institute.

I want to talk about scent.

Here's a stat. The smell of fresh baked bread

Yeah.

when it's pumped into a grocery store. this study found that sales in the bakery department tripled.

Triple.

Tripled.

That's a pretty good jump. Wow. well, the whole scent, the scent industrial complex, it's big business, man. I, you know, I don't think people realize that there are scent machines, retail stores all over the place pumping in scents, sometimes to create a buying experience like you just talked about, but sometimes just to create a brand experience. For instance, a lot of hotel chains have a custom scent that's piped into the lobby. And I think Holiday Inn might be one of them. You walk into a Holiday Inn and no matter where it is, it's going to smell the same because that scent's being pumped into the lobby. may be why Doubletree has warm baked cookies when you walk in too. I wonder if that's part of it.

Hmm. Well, what do we think about this? Does it need to be real? Is it okay that, that they're doing this artificial smell? I mean, I do like the anti Barnes and Noble consistency here, but, I don't know.

Do you feel manipulated? What's, what's your, what's your

it just seems kind of cheesy, but I guess you don't even think about it because that's why we're talking about it because we don't even think about it.

Well, here's a tip. Here's a tip to counter to if you want to make yourself a little more immune to, you know, these scents being thrust upon you. Chew gum. While you're shopping.

Really?

Yeah, if you've got gum in your mouth, it's harder for you to imagine the taste and the flavor and the texture of what it is you're smelling when you walk by like a bakery or whatever. So,

It's like the antidote.

yeah. So, so, especially, you know, some nice minty gum. Next time you're going through the mall, do that. Maybe you'll be able to walk by Auntie Anne's. Whoa.

uh, they're known to have an artificial grilled scent, uh, applied to their frozen burgers to make them smell fresh. And, uh, and then listen to this, speaking of scent machines, they strategically place them in bushes that disperse scents of cotton candy, popcorn, and caramel apples.

Okay, now I feel manipulated. That does feel dirty.

So that's pretty nuts. Um, so, so let's go beyond smell here.

Yeah.

And, you know, by the way, the 1 other example I did want to mention on when it came to, um, to smell is that Panera actually changed their whole operations to bake their bread during the day instead of at night, to make sure it's not like fresh bread all the

Oh, wow.

that was a good 1. Um, but the other sense here that we should bring up is, um, is hearing.

Hearing. Yeah. Yeah.

music is obviously just part of the same type of sensory type of experience. I found an interesting report from mood media, feeling type, company. And so, they did a, 2019 survey of 10, 000 Consumers. And, here's some interesting stats that came out of that. Nearly half of respondents spend longer time in a store because they liked what was playing on the speakers and. 57 percent said they'd be more likely to ditch their shopping cart if a store made questionable music choices.

Ooh. Questionable music choices. How's that defined? Like what? ABBA? What are we talking

I don't know, I don't know, Slow Jams, I don't know, but the uh, know, you think, you think if you just go with adult contemporary it'll work for everybody, and not really have a, uh, point of view up or down, but, Yeah, I

Well, I know music tempo can have a big impact on turnover at a, at a food establishment, right?

well, you would not be shocked probably to know that music is the number one factor in lifting a shopper's mood in the store.

Really? Number one.

Yep. It has an overall,

And wow.

yeah, it has an overall positive impact on 85 percent of shoppers. Here's another one. Here's another one. more than half of Gen Z. So 59 percent say they've stayed in a physical place longer because they were enjoying the music and then, other interesting thing to me was four and 10 consumers around the globe, say feeling, like the experience is personalized to them, makes them more likely to purchase something. So connecting the music to the way that, you know, you'd like to listen or, or things that are more personal to you, uh, has an impact too. So.

Fascinating.

So, uh, really interesting topic. And I'm sure, as we're interacting with things around the holidays, we'll see a lot of that stuff.

So if we want to shop at a store, but we don't like their music, I mean, just abandoning the cart and running out seems extreme. I mean, should we wear earphones? We're chewing gum. We are wearing earphones. Maybe you should put blinders on. What do we do? How do we stay more

know, I don't know about you, but when I'm shopping, there definitely becomes a point where I, uh, I'm done,

Yeah,

I've checked out. And so maybe that happens sooner if it's music, isn't something that I like. But maybe if it puts me in a good mood, I'm sticking around longer. But I definitely hit a wall. I don't, you know, especially if I'm shopping with my spouse or something. So

Yes. Okay. We'll leave that alone. And, uh, yeah, I think also, I think we've covered most of the census, uh, and pretty good conversation on retail. What else you got today?

All right. So I have a lightning round for you.

Ooh, yay.

it was a nice little segment we started last, last time. Uh, so I thought I'd keep it going.

Okay, I'm ready.

quick questions I want on the spot decisions here. These questions have not been revealed to John, so he's not aware of what I'm going to ask him here. So let's get, let's get going. All

Are there any, are there any right wrong questions here?

There's only judgment, not right or wrong.

Okay, great. Um, strong, strong on judgment.

This is a judgment, all judgment zone. Okay. So number one, I got to give credit to some of my friends who came up with this one. home jerseys and a sporting event. Should they be wearing traditional home white jerseys or whatever looks best on TV?

Whatever looks best.

Okay, wrong answer, but let's go to the next one. All

Wait, you gotta wear white at home?

Yes, it's tradition. It's always, it's been happening since the, the dawn of sports, your home weights.

Nonsense. Nonsense, I say.

I don't know. That's

All right, so, so how do you, so is it, are like these blackout games when everyone wears the black uniform that the

about sensory overload.

yeah, okay. Keep going.

And now, you know, a lot of the, there's like second, third, 17th jerseys that teams have.

Oh, it's a money making machine.

All right. So 2nd question. NFL Black Friday, came and went and Amazon did a, a game, which. Really took marketing to another level. Um, but my question for you is, is the NFL a genius and Amazon or, are we getting too greedy with taking over all these days that, other sports might have an

I think both things can be true. Yes. And yes.

Oh, look at you.

They are genius and greedy.

Okay. All right. Daylight savings or no daylight savings?

I, I've never understood why people get their knickers in such a knot over daily savings. It's not that big a deal. Just change the clocks and move on with your life.

Okay. Okay. I can live with that. Coffee as soon as you wake up or when you're starting to do stuff? Can

I wake up.

you start a drip into your, into your veins as you're waking up?

Uh, this is not an arbitrary figure. I have coffee brewing within nine minutes of getting out of bed.

Really? Do you set an alarm on or you do it yourself

Uh, it's a long story why I know that, but I do know that if I wake up at 6 o'clock before 6. 10, the coffee is dripping.

We should do a data report on this for both of us. All right. Interesting. I don't want to drink a sip of coffee until I'm ready to do something because I love.

Mm.

Drinking coffee while I'm, it's, I love it to kick in while I'm doing stuff. It just, it makes everything, uh, it makes everything right. Okay.

Again, both things can be true.

Joe as well. All right. Best music period, seventies, eighties, or nineties.

Ooh, yeah, that's a hard one. I'm, I'm gonna, this is gonna be controversial. Um, I'm gonna say 90s just for sheer fun. Not quality of music, but for fun.

Okay, I can live with that, uh, since I'm a 90s kid, but I think 70s are the best. Alright.

Quality wise, you're probably right.

Alright. Favorite physical marketing tactic? Direct mail or vehicle wraps.

Oh, I love a vehicle wrap.

Yeah.

Mostly because, uh, again, I'm using a statistic, 90 percent of them are god awful. And I love it.

is nice to sit around and watch those,

The bad vehicle rap gives me great glee.

Good. Alright. That's all I got.

Okay, okay, this is good. I feel like there were not a whole lot of right wrong in there, but, but like you said, a high judgment zone. Judgment only zone.

Judgment only zone. Yes.

I feel like it might be time for my favorite segment, Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest. True.

Yes, this is true. I got one.

Okay, your turn.

we,

Ring it.

I've been seeing what we've been doing to try to get a star and get somebody that's Hopelessly unattainable. And, I don't know where this came from, but, uh, I'm inspired to talk to this artist. Um, her name is Jennifer Lopez,

Ooh.

So here we go. I thought, uh, really interesting figure and, uh, let's see if we can get her. Okay. All right. So I wrote her a letter and dear Jennifer. J Lo. Jenny from the block. You're an icon, a legend, a star. You've worn so many hats in your career. A fly girl dancer on the legendary sketch comedy In Living Color. A singer that has won Grammys and about every other musical award possible. A top flight actress that has broken through in dramas and comedies. How about we complete your career headdress with an appearance on our exploding podcast, Snap Decisions. I loved you in Out of Sight with George Clooney. You were amazing in Selina. Who doesn't love guilty pleasures like the wedding planner or Made in Manhattan? I listened to Love Doesn't Cost a Thing to get juiced for this podcast. You're the perfect guest for our show, someone whose life has no straight paths and always reinvents themselves. Our recent guest, Chris Waddell, like you, has been named to the famed People's Most Beautiful People list. You actually won the award in 2011. Let's talk about that. And maybe you can provide tips on how to get my co host John Young, also known on Twitter as Philly JO on a, on a future list, we're a serious podcast, but for you, we're willing to talk about your personal life, Mark Anthony. A Rod, and of course Ben Affleck. So much Ben. Do you know Matt Damon? How many times have you watched Good Will Hunting? In closing, we're here to tell your story, Jen. There's no better place than Snap Decisions, and our forum of middle aged white marketers. Sincerely, Snap Decisions.

All right, nice. I really like your close there in particular.

Yeah, thank you. I think, uh, I think we got a shot.

I mean, listen, she, uh, she's already proved she's got dubious taste in men. So why not join us for this podcast to me?

We're the podcast for the stars.

just need that one star to get that going, right?

It'll just feed off of each other. Once we start getting some advertising, maybe it'll pay for our talent recruiting firm and we'll start going after the Tim Cooks and Michael Jordans and JLo's.

Why not? I mean,

Hey, and we'll come to you. We'll come to you. We can do it. We'll do it live in person

Absolutely. I think we, I think we offered to go visit Necker Island to interview Sir Richard Branson. So yeah, wherever J Lo happens to be, that's where I'll show up.

Yeah, hey and nothing against our guests. Our guests are uh, barely attainable as it is and we love them and so I will do a little tease on next episode. We got a friend of the program coming on and we're gonna have a great episode talk About their background, but also get them a little bit more involved in some of our snap decisions. So looking forward to that.

Same. Yeah. And that'll be good. That'll be, uh, it'll pick up on where we left off with the idea of, uh, scent marketing a little bit

Oh, good plug. Good plug.

easier. All right. Thanks, Brian. Good seeing you.

Good to see you. Shut it down.

Take care, everybody.

Shop smart.