[00:00:00] Ivy Ruths: The goal is not to eliminate anxiety. It's about helping kids build confidence to move forward even when they feel afraid.

[00:00:08] Leah Clionsky: Welcome to the Educated Parent Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Leah Clionsky, and I am so excited about the guests that I have on today. You guys are gonna be thrilled because this is a topic that comes up for all of us with kids at any age.

[00:00:23] Leah Clionsky: And here is the thing, how do we help our kids try new things, especially when they're anxious? How do we help them? Do the new thing. How do we support them in that? How do we not accidentally sabotage that process? This is a relevant topic. If you have a 4-year-old or you have a 19-year-old, you are listening to Educated Parent The Parenting Podcast, where I teach you realistic expert parenting hacks to solve your everyday parenting problems.

[00:00:54] Leah Clionsky: So that you can reduce your stress, build your confidence as a parent, and raise thriving children. My name is Dr. Leah Clionsky and I'm a licensed clinical psychologist, owner of Thriving Child Center and PCIT experts, child psychology practices, and a real life parent of two young children. I am the same as you.

[00:01:15] Leah Clionsky: I am invested in being the best parent possible and raising thriving children. I also get overwhelmed. I make mistakes and I forget what works. I do have three unique parenting advantages that you may not have a PhD in. Child clinical psychology. Over 15 years of clinical experience working with families and a network of other experts that I can text for parenting advice whenever I'm lost.

[00:01:40] Leah Clionsky: I'm here to bring my expertise and my expert network. To you so that we can solve your everyday parenting dilemmas together. I am so glad you're here. So I am so excited to bring on Dr. Ivy Roofs. She's a licensed psychologist and a licensed specialist. In school of psychology and she specializes in treating anxiety.

[00:02:04] Leah Clionsky: So she's the person if you have OCD related disorders, parenting challenges related to anxiety, she is the person you wanna call. She's been providing individualized evidence-based care for her patients for over 15 years at university clinics, community mental health clinics, hospital schools, and now in private practice.

[00:02:23] Leah Clionsky: And in 2023, she founded the Houston Anxiety and Wellness Center in order to serve more individual students and families in the Houston area. She serves as the center's clinical director, supervising doctoral clinicians and consulting with all of the center's clinicians on patient care. Dr. Ruth, I am so excited to have you here.

[00:02:43] Leah Clionsky: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Yes, we have been talking about this topic. In text message all the time because it's something that comes up for all of us. What do we do when our kids feel anxious and how do we help them grow as people to approach new things? So I know you are an expert.

[00:03:04] Leah Clionsky: I. But I also know you're a parent. Can you talk about that for a minute?

[00:03:08] Ivy Ruths: Absolutely. I am a parent to two girls. They have, you know, this little parallel life. I've got a 3-year-old and a 13-year-old. They are 10 years apart, and so they're constantly trying new things, right? They're both actually trying new things.

[00:03:23] Ivy Ruths: I've got one that's. Then I learn to sleep in a big girl bed, and I've got one that's trying out for student council, right? Brand new things, very anxiety provoking, requiring a lot of courage and bravery, and we can use the same sort of tools and strategies for both of them.

[00:03:38] Leah Clionsky: I absolutely love that, and I love how you're bringing up to the fact that wherever you are in your development, the thing you are doing, then.

[00:03:46] Leah Clionsky: Requires bravery. Sleeping in a big girl bed requires bravery when you're three, you know, and student council requires bravery when you're 13. Sometimes we kind of dismiss those earlier challenges as not a big deal, but they're a big deal for that child at that time. Mm-hmm. Definitely,

[00:04:02] Ivy Ruths: and I mean, I'm, I'm definitely not a perfect parent by any means.

[00:04:06] Ivy Ruths: I know that we can appear to be that way, you know, but we have the exact same struggles that every household has. I always say I might not want my patients peeking in through my window in the morning, but when I am at my best, I implement these strategies as. The best that I possibly can, and every opportunity is an opportunity to learn, including for us as parents, because watching our kids have to be brave it is hard for us too.

[00:04:33] Leah Clionsky: Right? Yeah. This is such an important thing that you're bringing up that our kids' anxiety can trigger our own anxiety, and then sometimes we. Accidentally stop them from being brave because we're uncomfortable.

[00:04:45] Ivy Ruths: Yeah, and I mean that's the, you know, the crux of anxiety is that discomfort, whatever it is, right underneath all of it is a discomfort with uncertainty with how things are going to end up not knowing what's next.

[00:04:59] Ivy Ruths: And we have to model, we have to model what getting through those moments is like for our children.

[00:05:04] Leah Clionsky: Can I ask you a question about anxiety?

[00:05:07] Ivy Ruths: Yes. So yes, you can.

[00:05:10] Leah Clionsky: One thing I see coming up a lot when I'm talking to parents is this idea that maybe their job is to protect children from anxiety, and that maybe anxiety treatment is about keeping people from being anxious.

[00:05:26] Leah Clionsky: Is that a good thing? Is anxiety something we should be avoiding? I mean, absolutely not.

[00:05:32] Ivy Ruths: Right. You know, straight to the point. Absolutely not. We cannot avoid anxiety. Anxiety is a part of life. It's a part of the human experience. And actually in order to learn it requires us to feel a little bit of fear because we often are doing something new.

[00:05:47] Ivy Ruths: We have, and it makes sense to, you know, trying something new almost always stirs up anxiety. And that is. Normal, completely normal. It's not a sign that something is wrong. It's a sign that you're on the verge of becoming somebody else, of being able to do something new.

[00:06:02] Leah Clionsky: Do you think anxiety is good for us?

[00:06:05] Leah Clionsky: As long as it's not taking over our lives? I do.

[00:06:09] Ivy Ruths: I

[00:06:09] Leah Clionsky: often

[00:06:10] Ivy Ruths: have to, you know, when people do come into my office, they'll say, you know, I just don't wanna feel this way anymore. I wanna get rid of anxiety and I have to stop them right then and there and make it very clear that that is not. Our goal, our goal is not to rid ourselves of anxiety by any means.

[00:06:24] Ivy Ruths: In fact, our goal is to maybe even put ourselves in situations that make us anxious so that we have an opportunity to learn that we are capable. If we don't have that opportunity, we end up being limited. We limit ourselves.

[00:06:39] Leah Clionsky: So we have to learn that we are able to tolerate anxiety, that we are capable, that we can do hard things because if we are afraid of anxiety, then we're afraid of growth and we're afraid of living up to the potential we have.

[00:06:51] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:52] Ivy Ruths: And is actually our job as parents, you know, counter to what we might think instead of protecting our kids from anxiety. It's actually our job, I think, to. Provide opportunities for our kids to face that anxiety so we can't come in and save the day.

[00:07:06] Leah Clionsky: So it's the opposite of what often we're trying to do, where we're like, don't be anxious.

[00:07:09] Leah Clionsky: And we're like, no, let's put you in a challenging situation. Let's help you deal and survive these uncomfortable feelings so you can raise your confidence and trust yourself

[00:07:18] Ivy Ruths: more.

[00:07:18] Leah Clionsky: Yes,

[00:07:19] Ivy Ruths: absolutely. That's how we build resilience and I'm always so excited to watch a child rise to the occasion and. Proved it to themselves and to their parents.

[00:07:28] Ivy Ruths: Like, oh wow, you know, we didn't know that that was possible. And look at what we have accomplished. And it really is a partnership with the parent too.

[00:07:36] Leah Clionsky: Yeah, I've been actually seeing this lately in my own life as my daughter is learning how to ride her scooter. So, you know, the first time she was so scared, she kept saying, I can't do it.

[00:07:46] Leah Clionsky: And we were practicing that she could do it anyway. It was okay to be scared and she could continue to do it. And now she rides fairly well and it actually motivated me to buy as an adult. Scoot scooter. Did you get a scooter? I did. And I was, I was scared too because I haven't run a scooter in, you know, like 33 years or something.

[00:08:07] Leah Clionsky: But I wanted to model. I can do hard things too. You and I can scooter together. Yeah. Yeah. Mediocrely, well, she does it well. I'm mediocre

[00:08:16] Ivy Ruths: trailing behind her.

[00:08:17] Leah Clionsky: Oh yeah. Basically. It's really funny.

[00:08:21] Ivy Ruths: I love that. I love that. And I love the idea of doing things together because that's exactly what, you know, when I am doing like CBT or exposure therapy, I tell a kid like, I would never ask you to do something that I won't do with you.

[00:08:34] Ivy Ruths: And we get a parent to model that too. Like I get that. It's scary. It's actually scary for me too. And we can do this. That, and is so important.

[00:08:43] Leah Clionsky: It's a good idea for kids to see us not like be terrified having a panic attack, but to see us like doing something challenging. Mm-hmm. Talking about some of our anxiety and then watching us do it anyway and celebrate that.

[00:08:55] Leah Clionsky: Absolutely. Vicarious learning.

[00:08:57] Ivy Ruths: We can learn the good stuff

[00:08:58] Leah Clionsky: too. So later when we tell them how anxious you and I were to start podcasting. They'll have that. Absolutely. I love that we're talking about this. I think that this message about anxiety is good for people and we need to help our kids experience anxiety and gain confidence is something that doesn't get talked about very much.

[00:09:19] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of it is about avoidance, which then makes anxiety take over. Exactly.

[00:09:25] Ivy Ruths: It's so counterintuitive, right? Because as parents, we do want to take care of our children. You know, we were talking about like we are supposed to give our kids a snack when they're hungry. We know we're trying to avoid the hangry, right?

[00:09:36] Ivy Ruths: We provide sweaters and we have 'em in our car in case a kid gets cold. But our job is not to make our kids feel. Safe from anxiety because anxiety is not dangerous.

[00:09:47] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm. But we do wanna keep our kids safe from danger. So it's like Right, right. I'm not gonna let you scooter into the middle of the road.

[00:09:55] Leah Clionsky: Right. That is safe.

[00:09:56] Ivy Ruths: Yes. We've gotta have a really clear idea about what's dangerous and anxiety is not dangerous.

[00:10:01] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. I think sometimes we feel that anxiety is dangerous. Yeah. So it's us as parents making that judgment call like, I'm gonna allow you to sleep in a big girl bed. Sleeping in a big girl bed is not dangerous.

[00:10:11] Leah Clionsky: Running for student council is not dangerous. Learning to ride a scooter is a little dangerous, but within the realm of acceptable danger.

[00:10:18] Ivy Ruths: Yes. You put your helmet

[00:10:20] Leah Clionsky: on, don't go

[00:10:20] Ivy Ruths: outside without mom or dad. Yeah. But yes. Yeah.

[00:10:24] Leah Clionsky: Yeah, so it's us making that judgment call what is dangerous, what is not? Mm-hmm.

[00:10:28] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm. And then when there's still that fear of things that are not dangerous, then it's up to us to support. Right.

[00:10:34] Ivy Ruths: Right. Okay. Exactly. I mean, that goes towards modeling, right? You're modeling like, okay, this is a dangerous situation. Here's how we make sure you stay safe in the road and wait, this isn't a dangerous situation.

[00:10:44] Ivy Ruths: I don't actually need to put all these safety nets in place. You can feel this and you can overcome.

[00:10:49] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. And I imagine you can also just say that directly to your kids, like, this is dangerous, this is not dangerous. Yep. And you still feel anxious and we're gonna work on it.

[00:10:59] Ivy Ruths: Mm-hmm. Please say

[00:11:01] Leah Clionsky: it,

[00:11:02] Ivy Ruths: please say it directly.

[00:11:03] Ivy Ruths: Be explicit. Absolutely. Like, I love this. You know, you can be scared but safe. Yeah. Like you are safe in your big girl bed, even though you feel scared, you can be scared and safe simultaneously. They're not contradictive. I

[00:11:16] Leah Clionsky: feel like I just didn't wanna sit there and repeat that to myself sometimes.

[00:11:19] Ivy Ruths: Yeah.

[00:11:20] Ivy Ruths: No, me too.

[00:11:22] Leah Clionsky: So Ivy, it's really important that we give parents some real strategies for this because I know you all want your kids. To try new things. That's what you want as a parent, and the summertime is a great time to help your kids try some new things. So how do we do this, right? We're saying you can be scared and safe.

[00:11:44] Leah Clionsky: Let's try this new thing. And your kid, because they're scared of their pushing back, they're resisting, which is what people do when they're scared is. They wanna avoid that. So how can our listeners help their kids approach things? The new things that we know are safe, but are a little bit scary to them.

[00:12:02] Ivy Ruths: Okay, so I practice cognitive behavioral therapy, and so I'm kind of taking like the major tenets from that to go over in some really easy takeaway strategies, simple strategies that parents can start implementing today right now, immediately, right? So one strategy for challenging negative thoughts. One strategy for making sure that you validate a child's feelings, exactly what you were talking about, Leah.

[00:12:26] Ivy Ruths: And one for helping your child to build their bravery step by step. At a time.

[00:12:33] Leah Clionsky: I love the building bravery. That is such a cool way of talking about approaching something you're scared of. Okay, so the first one is about challenging the negative thoughts. Yes.

[00:12:43] Ivy Ruths: So cognitive restructuring major big words for challenging negative thinking.

[00:12:48] Ivy Ruths: That's all it really is, is helping your child to become a realistic thinker. And one really easy takeaway, one really easy strategy for that is to help your child notice when fear is based in possibility versus probability. So a quick possibility versus probability check. So, yes, it's possible something could go wrong, but what is the probability that it's gonna go wrong?

[00:13:12] Ivy Ruths: Let's think about that. Let's think through that together and kind of help your child think through the options.

[00:13:18] Leah Clionsky: So if, like, if your child is afraid to swim in the pool because they think there are sharks in the pool

[00:13:23] Ivy Ruths: mm-hmm.

[00:13:24] Leah Clionsky: Right Then, then there is no likelihood of that. But it might feel real to your child.

[00:13:29] Ivy Ruths: Sure. Yeah. I mean, that one is one that's not possible. Right. That's, you know, reality check. Sharks that can survive chlorine water. But yes. So things like that. And so that's a, you know, you bring up an interesting kind of point. So how do kids know what possibility and probability are? They're kind of big words and Right.

[00:13:47] Ivy Ruths: Often I try to help a kid understand that by using an example that might make sense to them. Like, you know, they're sitting with me and I say, okay, do you know what possibility versus probability is? And they say. No. So I say, okay, let's pretend that I'm your mom and you really want ice cream after this session.

[00:14:06] Ivy Ruths: And so you ask mom and she says, oh, you know, um, it's possible that we can get ice cream. We have to run to pick up your brother right after this. We'll see. Are you gonna, you think you're gonna get ice cream? And they're kind, they're like, uh, no, you know, I know we're in a rush to get my brother. I say, okay.

[00:14:21] Ivy Ruths: But if your mom says, you know what? Yeah, we could probably do that. We have 20 minutes before we have to pick up your brother. I think we can fit that in. Do you think you're gonna get ice cream? And they're like, yeah, I think it's more likely 'cause we have more time. And so I help kids in, you know, put it in their own terms of what's possible versus what's probable.

[00:14:39] Ivy Ruths: And I try to help them understand like, yeah, it's possible. I. That that scary thing might happen. That's why you're afraid of it, right? Because it's a possibility and it makes sense that you're afraid of things that are possible. But let's think about what's probable. Let's think about what else could be true.

[00:14:57] Ivy Ruths: How else could this end and help you come up with some alternative ideas so that you have a more accurate picture of what you're up against.

[00:15:04] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm. Because when kids are scared, they're imagining that the worst thing is probable. Like my house will get hit by lightning. Yes. Yes. Like it will definitely happen.

[00:15:14] Leah Clionsky: And so we're trying to get them to be a little more realistic in terms of the likelihood.

[00:15:19] Ivy Ruths: Yes. So like this possibility versus probability check helps to build that cognitive flexibility to be able to think about things in a different way and interrupt that catastrophic thinking, that kind of, that rumination that the worst possible thing's gonna happen with.

[00:15:33] Ivy Ruths: Without dismissing their experience. Right. Yes, it's possible. That's why it's scary, but what else could be true?

[00:15:39] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm. Is that where that validation piece, that second piece you mentioned comes in? Yes,

[00:15:43] Ivy Ruths: absolutely. So it's so important to validate first. We are, we tend to be fixers. We jump in there, we wanna fix the problem, or we wanna just say like, we have our grownup lens on, and we're like.

[00:15:54] Ivy Ruths: No, there aren't sharks in that pool. You know, there are no sharks in that pool. But before we offer reassurance, before we start problem solving, we really wanna start with validation. Right? Really, it makes so much sense that you are scared of that. It makes, you know, we just watch jaws like of course, that you know that's on your mind.

[00:16:13] Ivy Ruths: It makes so much sense that you feel nervous about trying something new. You've never done it before. It's actually really brave that you're considering doing it. So that reduces that emotional escalation that helps them to trust you. To trust that you see them, they feel heard, they feel understood, and then they're more likely to try something, right?

[00:16:34] Ivy Ruths: Mm-hmm. They get it. They get why? This is hard for me.

[00:16:36] Leah Clionsky: So if I said to my daughter, learning to scooter, well, it's not that big a deal. It's not that scary. Nothing that bad will happen to you. Let's just give it a try. Then I'm not validating. She doesn't feel seen or heard. Yeah. But if I say. I can see why you're nervous about scootering.

[00:16:52] Leah Clionsky: It's brand new. People could fall off a scooter, you know? Yeah. And so it makes sense to me that that would be scary and different for you and we can still try it. And

[00:17:02] Ivy Ruths: that and is so important. It's a validation paired with a statement of support. So, and you're capable and I believe you can do it, and it really has to be both.

[00:17:12] Ivy Ruths: Sometimes when we validate, people get a little confused and they start to be like, you know what? That is really scary. We can go inside. We don't need to try it today. And that full stop, that is what we don't want. We don't want you dismissive, oh, it's no big deal. Just get on the scooter. It's no big deal yet in the pool.

[00:17:29] Ivy Ruths: We don't want you dismissive, and we also don't want you overtly just validating without that second and without that support, I. Without that statement of belief.

[00:17:39] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. What I'm hearing the difference is, is that if you're validating, you're saying, I can see how for you this would feel scary, versus I agree that it's dangerous.

[00:17:49] Ivy Ruths: Yes. There you go. Yes.

[00:17:50] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. So like when you say to your daughter, I can see how it feels scary for you to. Sleep in your big girl bed. If you said it is scary to sleep in your big girl bed, that is saying like, I see danger and I'm trying to talk you into it.

[00:18:03] Ivy Ruths: Yes, yes. That's perfect. And often we do feel that danger.

[00:18:06] Ivy Ruths: We feel that anxiety. It's natural for us to feel it too. It's the first time our three-year-old has slept in a big girl bed. What if they get outta bed? What if they go downstairs? What if they, we have all those same fears. So possibility versus probability, or check yourself and validate and support.

[00:18:22] Ivy Ruths: Wonderful.

[00:18:23] Leah Clionsky: Okay. And our third step.

[00:18:25] Ivy Ruths: Is helping our child build that bravery ladder. So what is one step towards bravery? This is, uh, just, you know, fear HIEs or a core CBT tool. I use them literally every day with the tiniest of kids to adults. We, I use them with adults too. So we're gonna break new experiences into smaller, more manageable steps and we're gonna celebrate each step.

[00:18:48] Ivy Ruths: We're gonna do lots of praise. And you know, a parent might say, okay, this does seem. Very scary. This I can understand why you're so afraid. What is one tiny thing that you could do to practice first? We don't have to do it all at once. We don't have to ride your scooter all around the block. Maybe you just want to stand on it.

[00:19:07] Ivy Ruths: Maybe you wanna stand on it with one foot. Maybe you wanna stand it with it with the other foot. So how do I break this experience down into more manageable steps? That feel achievable.

[00:19:15] Leah Clionsky: Oh, I love that. It's like you can start small. It kind of is reassuring honestly to both of you.

[00:19:20] Ivy Ruths: Exactly. This comes up a lot.

[00:19:24] Ivy Ruths: If anything, you know, if I have a child that's afraid of dogs, how can I do, you know, how can I introduce one small thing that might feel more comfortable for them? A child that's a way that's afraid of going to sleepaway camp or spending the night somewhere. You can break all of these things down into a more manageable step.

[00:19:42] Leah Clionsky: Yeah, as you're saying this, I think maybe watching my daughter Scooter was a first step on my fear hierarchy of scootering myself. Yeah, I didn't think about that. Yeah, she could do it.

[00:19:53] Ivy Ruths: Maybe I could

[00:19:53] Leah Clionsky: do it. Maybe I can do it. It's like that modeling like, oh yeah, you did it. Like I'm a full adult. Maybe I can try too.

[00:20:01] Leah Clionsky: You have further to fall though. I know. And more risk. I'm way more likely to break something.

[00:20:08] Ivy Ruths: I understand why that made you feel scared, Leah.

[00:20:11] Leah Clionsky: Thank you. I, I, I was brave though. I do it anyway. So brave. So Ivy, I love these points. So what I'm hearing, just to kind of summarize everything that you have said.

[00:20:22] Leah Clionsky: Is that the very first thing that parents are going to do is they're going to help their child understand the likelihood that something will happen, the probability versus possibility. Mm-hmm. Then we're going to validate, we're gonna tell our child that their experience makes sense without saying that we're leading them into danger and we're going to affirm that they are brave and capable.

[00:20:43] Leah Clionsky: And the third thing we're gonna do is we're going to encourage them to take. One small step towards the thing that they're afraid of, and we're gonna celebrate it for the real accomplishment that it is so that they get some momentum and we can do another little step and another little step. That is pretty soon you're.

[00:21:00] Leah Clionsky: 40 years old on a scooter with your 5-year-old?

[00:21:04] Ivy Ruths: Absolutely, yes. I mean, like the, the main point, right, is like, the goal is not to eliminate fear. The goal is not to eliminate anxiety. It's about helping kids build confidence to move forward even when they feel afraid.

[00:21:19] Leah Clionsky: Oh, I love that. That is what we all need to be doing all the time.

[00:21:24] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm. Yes. So I am so glad, Ivy, that you came on the podcast and was able to share this really important information with parents. I think we all need to keep hearing this again and again if people want to receive treatment with you or Houston, anxiety and Wellness. Center, how can they do that?

[00:21:39] Ivy Ruths: Absolutely. So you can just visit our website. It's www.houstonanxiety.com, or send us an email at info@houstonanxiety.com to get more information to be matched with the therapist, to learn more about our parenting programs and starting individual therapy or. Even some of the camps that we have going on this summer.

[00:21:59] Ivy Ruths: Yay.

[00:22:00] Leah Clionsky: Yeah, so we have the link to those in the show notes. I personally refer to this clinic all the time, so it's a trusted place. I highly recommend if you're struggling with anxiety or need to help your kids approach new things, you send them over there. It's a great place to be. Thank you so much Leah, and thank you for having me.

[00:22:18] Leah Clionsky: Oh, it is my pleasure. Thank you so much, Ivy. Thanks again for spending time with me on Educated Parent. If this episode helped you feel more confident in handling those parenting curve balls, I. Hit follow. So you never miss an episode. Know a parent who's stuck in the endless cycle of conflicting advice.

[00:22:38] Leah Clionsky: Send this their way because we all deserve parenting strategies we can actually trust. And hey, if you have a minute, leave a review. Your support helps other parents find real expert back solutions instead of just another opinion online. One last quick reminder. This podcast offers general advice, but every family is different.

[00:23:00] Leah Clionsky: The advice offered in this podcast is not medical advice and is not appropriate for every family. If you need personalized parenting support, connect with an experienced clinician at Thriving Child Center or PCIT experts. That's it for today. Thanks for listening, and I'll talk to you next time.