We're doing a bit

of a collaboration

podcast here.

We've got Brian and

Simon from Sustainable

Builders Alliance

and also Hamish.

, and it's very

interesting because

I know when I reached

out to you, Brian, and

said that, are you keen

to do one together?

And you said you made

a comment that no

one is competitors.

It really, sat well

with me on the way that

our industry needs to

go and that we're all

working together to

achieve one good goal.

goal of collaboration,

which is probably

something that I've

seen from standing

back, not being

involved directly with

Sustainable Builders

Alliance, that that

seems to be one of

the big key themes.

Is that correct?

yeah.

Yeah, everything's

about collaboration.

And sharing of

information, I

guess, is the key.

That's what we've been

doing since day one.

It's all about

sharing information

and knowledge sharing

in the industry.

We've got to

arm people.

If they're going to,

we're going to expect

people to do better.

But we need to

give them the

tools to do that.

You're probably

the oldest here,

aren't you, Brian?

Between me,

Hamish, Simon.

I don't know, I'm 46.

Yes, I'm 35.

Hamish is 41.

You, how old

are you Simon?

Yeah,

39?

Simon.

what I'm getting

at with this.

is when you started

building it was

probably like each

builder for their

own and no one wanted

to work together.

kind of, yeah.

I grew up in

the country, I

was a country

bumpkin.

So, it, was a little

bit different.

I worked with my

dad and my uncle.

I could probably

speak to that.

you know, I've been

in the industry for

20 plus years now.

And I know that when

I was starting out,

you know, it was

a yelling culture.

It was, you know, a

beer drinking culture.

Nail guns at

the toilet.

we've all done that.

Yeah.

I still find it

funny, I should

But I think, yeah,

there's this new breed

of builder, that's

here in this room and

that listen to these

podcasts and ours, have

a thirst for knowledge

and want to dismantle

the sort of norm, I

suppose, recognizing

that Australian

homes have been

built shit the last,

century really since

Europeans improved

their housing stock

after the world war.

We just haven't

followed suit.

So I think there's

a recognition of, of

that in, in the younger

generation, whereas

the older generations

just, the sign they're

building is licensed

in the back of a

Wheaties packet.

Just, um, there's this

stuck in there might

be stuck in their ways.

Typically.

if I look back at the

old trades that were.

probably all retired

now, but they actually

cared about their job.

So when they went

into apprenticeship,

they cared at least.

The building technology

back there maybe

wasn't there, but they

actually took pride in

what they constructed.

And then we hit this

probably bump in

Australia where it's

all about quantity.

And as you, when

you build more shit,

more shit can happen.

Do you think

that's right?

Like I look back at the

old Proud Trail, like

they were really proud

of what they produced,

I don't think that's

a builder thing.

I think that's

a society thing.

If, if you want me to

be really honest there.

We live in a throwaway

society and we live in

a a 10 minute society

at the moment.

And even the youth

that's coming

through, you see it

in the apprentices

that we hire today.

I used to think.

That way, to be honest,

you know, they don't

build it like they

used to, that old

chestnut, but I don't,

I'm not so sure on it.

I mean, the amount

of renovations we've

done that little care

has been taken, it's

set out and whatever

else, you know, sure

technology's improved,

but are also trades.

I think the trades

that work with us as

builders, there's a lot

of them that they do

give a damn.

there's a lot that

don't, but I think

there's always going

to be that, like you

say Brian, in society,

there's always going

to be people that are

invested in their job,

people that are

proud of their work,

and, there are going

to be people that

aren't, that don't

give a shit.

you think there's

people that are proud

of their work that

they just don't care?

Like they're actually

happy just to spit

out and get to the

next job without like,

they're proud of, that.

you say proud, I'm not

sure what you mean.

There's always going

to be those people.

We're a little

bit different

in what we do.

And I see that,

like, in Melbourne

particularly, there's

a lot more custom

builders and more

boutique custom

builders than there

are in any other city

in Australia, as far

as I'm concerned,

from what I've seen.

So you guys have that

community in Melbourne.

Yeah, yeah.

You have a much

bigger community of

people Boutique custom

millers than any other

city, in my opinion.

So your, your

carpenters and

everything to follow

on from that, it's

a different thing.

Whereas I can

only speak from

Western Australia.

I see there's a much

smaller pool of really

good carpentry trades

to pick from here.

Really small.

project builders

run the show here

and that's okay.

I understand everyone's

got their place.

That's how the industry

is here and we just

get on with it.

you're talking

about being proud

of your work.

I just have a feeling

that it's not, it's

not as prevalent here

in Western Australia,

I wouldn't think.

Do you think we just

surround ourselves

with the same

people now that we

think that

everything's growing?

I've spoken to this

about Hamish before,

so like the people

we associate with and

chat with, they're all

doing the same thing

and wanting to build

better, so we feel like

it's really growing.

But then you

look on a broader

perspective, like,

is it actually like,

do more people care?

can I jump in

on this one?

Cause I do have an

opinion on this.

I think, I think

you're right.

We do all of us

operate within a bit

of an echo chamber.

If we kind of think

about the Passive

House community

and the Sustainable

Builders Alliance

community I think , we

all think the same.

We're all motivated

to be the same.

I don't think it is as.

Prevalent as you

kind of zoom out.

But what I am saying

is as the code

changes, people

are becoming more

aware of it and I'm

hearing more and more

larger organizations

taking an interest

in prefabrication

and performance

construction, and

they're the people

that are going to

really drive change.

And I don't want to

drop the name that I

heard yesterday, but

I know that there is

a massive, developer.

Who is taking a

huge interest in

high performance and

modular construction.

And I think when

these big people start

rolling out their

products, then it

will start filtering

down probably not so

much that people will

do it because they

want to do it, but

we'll do it because

they have to do it.

And I don't actually

think that's a bad

thing if the quality

of construction is

going to increase

off the back of it,

So, so how do

we improve?

because I look at what

you guys are doing at

SBA and it's awesome.

, and I think you

guys are going

to be the biggest

drivers in this.

And if someone gets,

gets to sit from a

sort of a side and

watch what you guys do.

Like, where to next?

Like, how do

we improve?

Like, how do we

leverage what you

guys are doing to

improve the industry?

so how SBA can

influence more the

future trajectory

of the industry.

Is that

Well, I think you're,

you're already

influencing it.

Like you're,

you're actually

already doing that,

but like, how do

we like get that.

influence out to more

people and how do we

improve the industry,

as a whole And, how

do we bring new people

into, into that sort

of like that community?

Because it's also

sometimes when you

have these communities,

it can be very easy

to shut other people

out because you're

so used to speaking

to the same people.

Yeah, yeah, that's

ultimately the million

dollar question.

I feel like the

resource that

we have can have

massive impact.

It's just about how

that's delivered.

there's many spokes

to it that we've,

we've got to work on

with, seven builders

that are volunteering

their time while

running their building

companies through

one of the hottest.

Economic times in

the last 100 years.

challenge enormous,

but the appetite for

what we're doing in

educating builders and

we want to celebrate

the builders that

presenting , doing

the work and doing

it sustainably,

challenging the norm.

I think the opportunity

is, enormous.

Yes.

And it's inevitable.

so it's whether or not

I mean, I think if the

big players in terms

of master builders

and HIA, if they are

going to really lax

on their offering

and not push this

sustainability agenda,

low carbon agenda,

it's going to help

Sustainable Builders

Alliance and it's going

to force Sustainable

Builders Alliance

to rise to the top.

I think we're just

going to keep going at

this as best we can.

Yeah, we've got

a great group of

volunteers now outside

of us directors.

So it is growing

incrementally but

there's a hell of

a lot of work to do

And we are excited to

launch what will be

a membership offering

later this year that

we hope, or we expect

to have a lot number

of sponsors on board

that We can offer their

products at discounts

to our members, and

we've already got, a

good number on board,

which I won't speak

to too much about.

made the comment

about the industry

associations.

Like I'm, I'm not

Switzerland here.

Like.

They are actively

trying to decrease

the energy efficiency

standards and actively

trying to, decrease the

performance of how we

build our buildings and

the stands we build to.

That is known.

Like, there's documents

circulating about

that right now.

that is a mountain

to sort of compete

with those two, like,

the big associations.

Like, that is

a big barrier.

Like, how, how

daunting is

that?

Can I jump in

here for a second?

I'm almost, I mean,

personally, you know,

as one of the, one

of seven directors,

I'm aware of what HAA

master builders are

doing, but I'm, I'm

certainly not, thinking

to myself, want to

try, we, we wanna try

and knock them off.

I don't think

that's ever been

our intention.

You know, we have

actively reached out

to HIA and Master

Builders on a number of

occasions, and I know

there has been some

positive conversations

that have happened but

I certainly don't see

us as coming in to this

space, this membership

space as competition

to try and knock master

builders or, or, or

HI off because I do

serve a purpose and,

These organizations

do actually add value

to our industry, but

there is a missing

piece in them.

And, and I think that

that's where SBA can

really rise to the top.

Like we are offering

a similar membership.

Thing but you know,

we're not gonna be

offering contracts.

We're not going to

be doing any of that

just yet I don't

know what the future

holds, but we're

certainly not coming

in as a, as another

organization that

would take that space.

But I think we can

certainly fill in

some of the void that

they are leaving.

it's a pretty big

void, and arguably

the biggest void.

It's a massive void.

It's a massive

void, right?

And then let us

expand and take

that entire void.

But, I don't think

either of us, so I'm

Brian, that we're

going in there to

try and knock these

guys off because

they do our value.

But we're certainly,

motivated to be

the champions of

sustainability in the

construction industry,

I think you're doing

an amazing job at it.

Okay.

From seeing again from

the back, from the

side, I think you guys

are doing awesome.

So, as an organization,

we have an AGM

every year and

we decide, right,

where are we going?

What are we doing

for this year?

So if we go back to

where we were last

year and what we

wanted to achieve

and we achieved our

goals, not all of them.

But we achieved

most of our goals.

And this year we

had a chat and we

were looking at

where we go next.

So your question was,

how do we improve and

where do we go next?

So lobby government

has won, which we're

not in a situation to

do at the moment, but

we would love to, at

some point, uh, upgrade

our education system.

So be that TAFEs,

be that all kinds of

education systems,

wherever we can get

influence in there.

And that was the

whole reason behind

us introducing and

releasing a course.

So the five step system

being introduced into a

course, that's part of

that education system.

Then spread the word

is the next thing.

So we were always

about free education,

free knowledge, right?

So we need to make

more information more

readily available to

the general public.

Education is key.

Get the knowledge

out there.

Get it out to people.

Make it available.

How do you make

it available?

Well, We're now

into shotgun

approach, aren't we?

So we discussed

that as well.

How do we educate?

How do we

create change?

there's so many outlets

to educate people,

but the real question

is, how do you engage?

If you're going to

incite change, there

has to be a few

things you need to do.

You need to make it

relevant, number one.

So you got to hold

people's attention.

So that's where we

have the posts and

social media and stuff.

But again, we're

just seven directors.

We all have businesses.

We all try to get

out on the internet,

but to hold people's

attention long enough,

you actually have to

engage them enough to

make them understand

that we're actually

trying to help.

That's we're trying

to incite positive

change, which will

influence them in

a good way moving

forward and not just

them, everybody in the

industry, everybody in

the world, that's quite

a challenge, right?

But it's baby steps.

So this is not

something we're going

to achieve overnight.

And we're all

aware of that.

But if we go back to

where we were in 2019

and where we are today,

there's quite a bit

of change already.

I think we've achieved

quite a bit so far.

just on that,

Brian, like, and I

wanted to shine a

spotlight on this too.

We all first caught

up at the end

of 2019, right?

That's five years ago,

four or five years ago.

We are still here

and we aren't fucking

going anywhere, right?

are lots of things that

come up all the time.

And people have

these great ideas of

starting all these

little organizations

and all that kind of

stuff and power to

everybody that does it.

Like we are here

and we have come

through COVID.

As Simon mentioned

before, we have come

through, or still in,

probably one of the

trickiest times to

be in construction,

in our lifetime.

And we are still here.

there is nothing

that's gonna

fucking stop us now.

Like, we have

been through the

hard slog, right?

What we need now,

know, I've voiced

it before is some

executive leadership

and we'd love some

government funding.

So if there's anyone

out there right now

that wants to jump in

and help us to help

our cause, we'd love

to hear from you.

So I'm just, I'll step

down off my soap box

now and hand it over

to somebody else.

But you know, like you

can hear that we're

all pretty bloody

passionate about this

organization and, you

know, and the seven

of us running busy

building companies, and

still being able to do

this on the side, you

know, all the spare

time that we have.

It's incredible.

Brian touch

on education.

So probably the three

of us, like we had to

work it out ourselves.

When we started doing

it, when we started

doing it the way we

did, like there wasn't

as much information

as there is now.

Do you feel like

there's now really no

excuse for any young

kid coming up learning?

The information's

already there.

Like, it's everywhere.

no, no, there is

always an excuse

and especially

for young people.

Again, I don't mean

to harp on about

society, but it's

always the short

road with the younger

people unless they're

educated differently.

And our education

system is not doing

that right now.

Okay, they're not

giving them the

information that they

need in education.

The rest of the

information, while we

give it out, they're

free and it's, it's

there to be found.

There's a lot of other

information that's

there to be found as

well, that is not good.

Do you know

what I mean?

So, while we try,

and we'll keep

trying, this is a

long term investment

what we're doing.

There's a lot of other

stuff that, that can

short circuit that.

So exactly what

Hamish was hitting on.

We need government

funding so that we can

actually make influence

where it matters.

There needs to be

courses in TAFE.

There needs to

be courses for

builders, for trades.

All these people need

to be educated in

the small steps, just

the small five steps

to start off with.

We're not talking about

getting everyone to

be a pacifist builder

overnight here.

We're talking about

people understanding

and giving them

the knowledge to

know that if you

use that product.

There is a side effect,

starts with

trade schools.

It starts at the start

of the first year

of apprenticeship.

like you, you start

somewhere and then

everyone that comes

through from there on

knows the standard.

It can go in trade

schools alone, but I

also think it needs to

be in professionals.

So Engineering

why can't it be in

their architecture?

Why can't it

be in there?

It should be

everywhere.

Sustainability should

be on everybody's lips

and it can't be just,

let's put into water

tanks and put solar

panels on the roof.

It goes way

further than that.

we live in our

own bubble here.

We know what we're

talking about, but

I think it's much

bigger than that.

I love where

Hamish is going.

We've spoken about

this many times.

How do we get

government funding?

We've been knocking

on the doors, but

obviously they're

not the right doors.

Eventually

we'll get there.

I sat in a meeting

recently with a few

people about, uh, CPD

points in Victoria for

continual professional

development, and

they had, they had a

broken the pie chart

was like a bit on

workplace safety,

one on codes and one

on like contracts.

They actually had,

they, they missed the

whole sustainability

thing and I raised

the issue and it

was funny enough

that actually hadn't

crossed their brain.

So, from my

understanding, they're

going to add it in,

but that's the CPD.

And that doesn't need

to be sustainability

because I think

sometimes that word

, can get a bit scary

and greenwashy, like,

like just durability

and building better

and performance and

and just, well, I just

refer to doing your

fucking job right.

Yeah, but you, yeah,

for what it's worth,

there's four of us

in a room, right?

Now, four of us

kind of think along

the same lines.

If you put another

four people in a

room that are from a

different demographic

and different jobs,

let's say they're

blue collar working

in an office, work for

a mining company or

whatever, and we all

read the same article,

on sustainability.

We'll understand

it differently.

We'll get different

key takeaways

from that article.

And that's,

unfortunately,

that's the knowledge

that's out there

and there's so much

about sustainability.

It's like, well,

how do you, how

do you nail it?

Well, you

kind of don't.

It's a slow process,

like I said.

But that is progress,

Yeah,

like, learning is

progress, like, it's

a blanket, and I think

that CPD is super

critical, it's, it's,

it's dumb that it's

not in Victoria, I

think it is in other

states, requirement

for builders, but

It's, it's actually

coming.

It's confirmed.

, it's coming.

It actually is.

It's like they've

released something

saying it's coming.

And it's quite

substantial from my

understanding that the

amount of time we've

got to put in it's

not just I think they

originally had proposed

something like oh like

five hours across three

years which is if you

can't find five hours

in three years you

probably shouldn't be

Do we, do we get

retrospective

points for starting

sustainable

bills of lives?

That'd be nice.

You might be the pinup

boy you might you they

might do a calendar

with you Hamish

Hey, excuse me.

Excuse me.

I'm not the most

famous person in

the room here.

I'm looking at

him right now.

Mr.

Brian Guinan.

You, uh, you, you

Trent, you, you

cross, you cross

borders now, mate.

Ah, I don't know

about that, man.

Can I go back

for a second?

I just want to go back

to like, we're doing

a bit of bashing on HA

and master builders.

I have a little

bit of a different

approach there.

Okay.

So I understand why

people talk the way

they do, especially

in our circuit and

our bubble, but I've

been talking to HA and

I've been talking to

master builders quite

a bit right now, if

we're going to insight

change, my personal

opinion is, I think

these guys need to come

along On the comments

about, you know,

there's been documents

released about

what they're doing.

You can take that

with a pinch of

salt as far as I'm

concerned, right?

What they're gonna

do is what they

think is best for

their members, okay?

And that's what

they're doing.

They're looking

after their members.

The members are

the big players.

And the members still

need to deliver,

affordable housing.

So I don't think

that they're

necessarily the issue.

I think the government

need to stand up and

make big decisions now

that will influence

in the future.

So we don't have

manufacturing here.

We don't have

availability

of product.

We've got no influence

from the government

whatsoever when it

comes to manufacturing

or getting product

in Australia,

everything's important.

Everything's imported.

, it's insane.

It's silly.

So in that sense, I

think the government

need to stand up and

say, right, well,

hang on, , let's sort

out some kind of a

package deal where

we give grants for

manufacturing companies

to use Australian

product and manufacture

here in Australia and

get product available

that will make

building sustainable.

Easier and more

accessible.

don't know how

we do that.

I really don't, but

but that's

politics though but

yeah, it's all policy,

yeah

but unfortunately

government have

short term vision.

I don't think that HIA

and Master Builders

are purposely doing

what they're doing.

That's not a

purpose thing.

This is them fighting

for their members.

And what we will

do as Sustainable

Builders Alliance,

we will do the same.

But we'll do it in

a different manner.

We will have, you know,

a different approach.

And we will always

have sustainability.

It's always at the top.

These guys are

just fighting for

their members.

I'm not saying

if you can't beat

them, join them.

That's not what

I'm saying here.

What I'm saying is,

why don't we try

and educate along

with these guys?

Why don't we partner

with these guys and

say, look, this is

what we're doing.

How about we enter our

course to you guys?

And we give them

an entry level

course to show them,

right, look, this

is what's possible.

If you want to have a

place in the industry

in the future and you

want to be relevant

and you want to have

a product that's

different than the

other ten guys over

here then how about you

have a look at this.

I think it's

changing though.

I think young kids

coming through, they

actually want to take

pride in their job.

I Like, I find the

young kids are very

eager to want to do

things correctly.

That's one thing

I've learned.

So

well, young kids,

they learn about

sustainability, like,

in primary school,

nurturing them at

that age, you know,

where's it gonna

be in 20 years, and

it's gonna be real

heavy on the agenda.

I mean, it should

be already and it

will be sooner than

that, I'd hope.

I think it'll just be

just the standard, bare

minimum you'd hope and

I think the problem

with that though,

Simon, I agree with

you because I've got,

my son's in year one

and sustainability and

respect for, you know,

Indigenous culture is

massive in primary

schools at the moment.

And I think

that's amazing.

That needs to continue.

But then you've got

a massive gap between

the education that's

happening now all the

way up to where we

are in our industry.

Now there's a huge

gap in between there

that needs educating.

The future is great.

The future looks really

positive, but I think

we need to then take

a step back and look

behind us and go, well,

how can we educate

all these other people

that are behind us now?

again, we're, we're

all, seven Ambitious

builders, starting this

little organization

with big dreams,

and I'm so confident

that we are going

to have, continue to

have a massive impact

because I sat in a

room yesterday with

25 engaged builders.

Right.

And they all had

sustainability at

the forefront of

their mind, every

single one of them.

Now, you know, they are

part of the Live Life

Build group and, that

is part of what they're

trying to do within

that organization.

But that just shows me

that, there is hope.

There's huge amounts

of hope and people

actually want this.

So I've seen it with

my own, I've seen

it with my own eyes.

do you reckon we are

in five years then?

it's hard to put

a crystal ball on

things and predict

things because it's

a lot of it's up to

government change.

investment

stuff like that.

But what do you think

SBA is in five years?

I'm confident that we

will have executive

leadership within the

organization soon.

I'm not going to

put six months, 12

months, 18 months on

it, but at some point

in the near future,

we're going to have

executive leadership,

which will allow us to

have someone working

within the organization

full time and

campaigning full time.

Whereas at the moment,

it's seven of us.

And I think we're

doing an incredible job

hats off to all of us

that are, part of it.

Um, and we're doing

some really great

things, but the big

change is going to

come and we've got

someone campaigning

full time for this.

Um, and we've even

noticed that, , the

growth that we've

seen with having , a

really active,

engaged volunteer

working with us.

Kat, massive shout out.

Thank you.

You've been doing

an incredible job.

I see that.

And then I see

the potential of

having a GM or a CEO

working within the

organization and,

and for me that it's

endless from there.

So where do I see

SBA in five years?

I see us as a really

solid pillar in the

construction industry

that is continuing to

deliver really rich

educational content and

being a real driving

force in changing how

our homes are built.

Yep.

I'll further that.

in five years, I think

we will have continuous

government funding.

We'll have executive

leadership.

As you said, I

think we'll have

an online course.

We will also have

an integrated course

with Master Builders

and HIA, I also think

we're going to have

a carbon program.

That may be an internal

carbon program,

it may be internal

and external, but

I do see us pushing

towards government,

particularly local

councils for a

carbon program.

I think that's

something that we're

pushing hard for.

talk about vision,

Hey, you just made

a comment and I want

to ask the question

because you said

hats off to yourself,

like we always talk

about the negatives,

how the industry is

not good enough, we

need to be better.

Do you guys stop and

celebrate the success

you've actually had?

As a group, the

seven of you?

we do.

We do.

We have incredibly

robust, , monthly

meetings.

But that's not

surprising given seven

really passionate

people in the room,

but there are moments,

cause we cover a lot

in those meetings,

you know, they go for

an hour and a half

and believe me when

I say that could go

for four hours if

they really wanted to.

But there are moments

in there where we're

like, Hey guys,

let's just stop and

fucking high five each

other for a second.

Cause look, we are

still here after four

years and we are only

getting stronger.

So I think we do.

good, good.

That's awesome.

I think it's

meeting in person

for me personally,

it's meeting you

guys in person.

That's like, we met

at the past post

conference recently

and went for a

dinner and a beer.

That was

amazing for me.

That was like

absolutely fantastic.

And me, all the boys

in person, cause

all this is online.

Everything we

do is online.

you the only one

not in Vic, Brian?

Yeah,

Don't hold that against

gets lonely sometimes.

No, I'm a token

and I accept that.

His, his fame, his

fame transcends

borders though.

Transcends borders.

I have to try

so much harder.

And that's okay.

I'm

That's why

he's so noisy.

That's why he

talks so much.

I want to ask you

all one question.

I want to get an answer

out of all of you.

And it might

be the same.

What is the biggest

change that SVA

has made to date?

the launch night last

year was, Outstanding

and just the feeling

in the room and the

sort of camaraderie

around builders.

It was sort of special.

I didn't expect it.

And just to hear from

builders, how they

had that interest in

sustainability, but

they weren't quite sure

where to go with it.

For Sustainable

Builders Alliance to

be able to guide or

direct those builders

or inform them and then

they can take their

approach and adapt

it for themselves and

become the sustainable

builder that they want.

That was a beautiful

thing to hear.

So just that small sort

of detail I'll throw

up as a starting point.

That was there.

That was awesome.

I was kind of hoping

you're going to do more

of them, just because

it was awesome to

catch up with everyone.

we've got two

coming up, Maddy

and you're involved

in one of them.

So, you it's stuff

like you saying,

Hey, you know what,

Hamish, let's do

an event together.

Let's put it under

the banner of SBA

and let's market

the shit out of it.

And let's get a whole

bunch of other people

together so we can help

educate people for me.

Like that's probably

one of, been the

biggest positive

things that we've done.

And I just wrote

down here, I actually

think that we've given

hope to people , and

I hear it from more

architects, I think,

because architects

sometimes can be a bit

more articulate they're

giving you feedback

you know, I've had a

few come up to us and

say, Hey, you know

what, we're just so

grateful that builders

are actively trying to

do and build better.

So I think that our

biggest success so

far has actually given

The industry broadly

more hope that we're

actually going in

the right direction.

I've got a follow up

question with Brian.

What do you, what

do you think?

Believe it or not,

this is going to

sound stupid, but

the biggest change is

the change you can't

see, in my opinion.

So if we go back to

when we started, nobody

knew who we were.

Now, whenever I go

to anything and I

mention Sustainable

Builders Alliance,

they now know.

No matter what circle

I'm in, like, I had a

home open event and it

was a Stenna Builders

Alliance thing.

But, when I went there,

there wasn't many

people that didn't know

who you were, or didn't

listen to the podcast.

And that was a hemp,

everyone came to see

the hemp essentially.

But for me, there's

change happening

that we can't see.

And that we're

influencing

that change.

And I think that's

personally, when I hear

people say they get

the feedback, Oh my

God, yeah, what you're

doing is fantastic.

Now we're just, you,

you two boys here will

list a test to this.

We go through the

motions and we

do what we do and

we keep pushing.

And as Hamish said,

we're not going

anywhere, right?

The change that we're

making, we, we can't

see it, but it's a

swell, it's, it's

a swell and it's

coming and we're

continuously pushing

hard and pushing hard

and pushing hard.

So for me, it's

going to sound like

a cop out answer.

Yeah.

The biggest change is

the change you can't

see, in my opinion.

I think there's a lot

of change happening

that not everybody

sees, but if you were

to get everybody that

either listens to a

podcast, or watches a

webinar, or goes to an

event, cumulatively,

at the same time,

in the same place,

that's affiliated

with Sustainable

Builder Alliance,

I think you'd be

very, very surprised.

I actually really

liked that answer.

It's like the,

yeah, you're known

by association,

which is awesome.

Now I don't want to

make this an us versus

them or anything

like that, but you've

gone from builders

declare to sustainable

builders lines like

architects that I feel.

You've got Architects

Declare and I'm, I

feel like they're

not doing enough and

I've been vocal about

architects like they're

usually in a lot of

the time, the first

point on a project to

start creating design.

Like, I feel like

they can quite quickly

stand for something

and say, Hey, we're

not designing something

that we don't feel

comfortable with.

Like, I, I personally

think signing up to

Architects Declare

and changing your

energy provider just

because it's solar

power isn't enough.

Like, why are you guys

making the change?

And they aren't,

Architects Declare

was the kick up the

bomb, I suppose.

The start of

Builders Declare.

So, Architects Declare

was, was their first.

Builders Declare

got born from that.

Let's, let's

acknowledge that.

and I mean,

when we started

Builders Declare,

well, okay, cool.

Builders Declare,

we've got this

website, people

signed this pledge.

Cool.

Now what?

It's just

like crickets.

Like, what

do we do now?

And early days.

There was a lot of

collaboration between

Declare movements with

Architects Declare

and Engineers Declare.

architects are very

idealistic, as we

know, you know, they

create the world in

their vision the way

they'd like to see it.

there's challenges

there with that

idealistic vision.

Making that a reality.

And I think we've

done, I suppose, is

a pragmatic approach

for builders are like,

what is the tangible

thing that we can do?

But, but also on

top of that, to

acknowledge Architects

Declare, they've

done, they've just put

together this product.

It is productaware.

com.

au website and

basically what it

is, it's a product

declaration and they've

done it really well.

It looks really good.

It's really user

friendly, which you

would expect from

designers, but they've

done that really well.

And hopefully they

can make a go at that.

But I think yeah,

look, it probably

just comes back to

the, the challenges

of, of creating a

sort of movement.

It's, it's not

getting back to the

question that Matt

originally asked Simon

though, so, we were

builders declare and

then we as a group

decided rebrand and

change the name.

can you talk a

little bit on that?

so a lot of work

went into that.

There's a lot of, uh,

apprehension about

going away from the

Builders Declare

as, as the movement.

You know, we

spent all our own

money on branding.

we invested a lot in

that a lot of time

and energy and money.

And so, and that.

came out of that

was Sustainable

Builders Alliance.

We all eventually

agreed after

about three years.

But here we are with

Sustainable Builders

Alliance and I think

it's a lot more

digestible for more

consumers and builders

and, suppliers in the

industry, which are

the ones that want to

get in front of our

audience and support us

as Sustainable Builders

And I think Bill just

declared, I think you

touched on it before

Simon, that the declare

was a movement, right?

It was, it was a

movement that that

was born out of the

UK, if my memory

serves me correctly.

So wasn't where we saw

the organization going

because we wanted to

to be educators and we

wanted to have assets

that we could roll

out to our audience.

And we just felt

that under that

declare banner, we

felt like we were a

little bit hemmed in.

By the name and the

context behind it.

So, having rebrand

and, and, you know, it

is always Sustainable

Builders Alliance

by, you know, born

out of Builders

Declare like we, we

do acknowledge that

because without that

original declaration,

we wouldn't be here.

But, , we are and

have created a brand

that's, synonymous

with, with education.

And that's what

we want to do.

And further on from

that, because there's

seven of us, that's

a lot of voices and

a lot of minds in the

same room and a lot

of educated minds too.

So when we decided

that we were going to

do what we were going

to do, and that was, a

membership eventually

and a full website and

eventually courses.

And these were

conversations we

were having, not

like last year, three

years ago, when we

were doing this and

we made this change.

Builders Declare was

the wrong vehicle.

We all discussed

this and we knew

that we could not

drive to where we

need to go with that

current vehicle.

We needed a

different vehicle.

And that was

the rebranding.

essentially it needed

to be a different

approach, from a

business mind and

a business sense,

logo just looks

so much cooler.

Oh, where's your sign?

Come on.

Where's your sign, man?

Ah, it's sitting

over there.

That's on me desk.

So we're quite, I

think we're quite

fortunate that there's

seven guys here.

We've never had

an argument.

Like, we've had

disagreements, but

we never have

an argument.

I've said this several

times, where it's like,

we're all adult enough

to know that, right?

This is not worth

arguing about.

What's the best thing

to do to move forward?

believe me when I

say we have robust

conversations, but

robust conversations

with seven people

who've been sitting

in the same seat

for the last four

or five years.

Right.

And as I said, we're

not going anywhere.

We, we can have

these conversations

and we can agree,

we can disagree,

we can hash it out.

We can, we always

come to a, pathway

forward with majority.

Okay.

Right.

And I'll say that

with majority because

everyone's not always

going to agree, but

you know, we have

it written in our

constitution that it is

majority moves forward.

And we've, all of us,

I know the three of

us sitting here right

now have been in a

position where we

have been outvoted and

that is okay because

it is much bigger

than the individual

person because we are

here for anyone who's

listening right now.

We are here for you.

We are, believe

me when I say this

does not make us

one fucking cent.

but

I'll be the first

to tell you right

but we give a shit

and we are going to

continue to do this.

And it would be great

at some point that

if, you know, we

aren't putting our

own money in it and

then it is subsidized

by government and

we can, we can make

even more change,

so if someone doesn't

know about SBA, where

do they find you?

Brian, you got this off

the top of your head.

go to the website, www.

dsba.

com.

au.

That's our website.

There is a mountain of

information on there.

There's so much

information.

I still, to this

day, have not got

through everything

on the website.

That's a fact.

There's so much

information on there.

It's incredible.

I stick to the

five steps.

The five steps

are incredible.

And then obviously

on the socials.

Facetube, Instabox,

all of those social

channels that

everybody uses.

Tok

You're on TikTok

now, aren't you?

I've

Tok, yeah.

Yeah, I'm on

that too, man.

But just on the

five steps, so the

five steps Brian's

talking about is the

five steps to carbon

neutral, roadmap to