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[00:00:00] Veronica: In this episode, we ask a blunt question. If the housing squeeze keeps tightening and governments keep turning the screws on short stays, does the model still work or is the [00:00:10] disruptor about to be disrupted? We are joined by Quirin Schwaighofer, co-founder and Co CEO of MadeComfy, who spent a decade building short stays at scale and steering [00:00:20] through boom backlash and rule changes

[00:00:22] Veronica: We did. We all dig into three things that owners want straight answers on. What new limits and levies really do to yield and cash flow, what models [00:00:30] still stack up and a practical pivot Plan, pricing minimum nights set up and compliance so that you can adjust before the market forces you to.

[00:00:37]

[00:01:15] Veronica: Our guest today is Quirin Schwaighofer, co-founder and co CEO of [00:01:20] MadeComfy. Now with a decade of running short stay portfolios through boom, backlash and shifting rules, we are keen to hear is data-driven insights on what the housing shortage and tighter regulation [00:01:30] really mean for short-term rental yields and the industry itself, and what can owners do to make it all remain profitable.

[00:01:37] Veronica: Great to see you again, Quirin. Thanks for joining us.

[00:01:39] Quirin: [00:01:40] Hi, Chris. Hi Veronica. Thank you for the invite. It's number three, I think.

[00:01:44] Veronica: Yes.

[00:01:44] Quirin: you know, we spoke very quickly off air. you know, what, where's the future of make comfy and, [00:01:50] um.Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It happened now, two, two months ago that we announced it, we were acquired by a, global hospitality platform called Prism, [00:02:00] previously, uh, OYO and yeah, it, it wasn't really planned. it's one of those things. Of course, we've set up Met Country from the beginning as a. Business that [00:02:10] has to have an exit at some point.

[00:02:11] Quirin: We raised capital. We raised over 20 million over the years that sort of went into our platform, technology, people, processes, and that was [00:02:20] clear. We need to have an exit at some point, but we were not really looking for an exit last year. what happened though is we were approached by a few businesses. Two of [00:02:30] them were an easy sort of no and very clear that this is not something we want to do. When I got the LinkedIn message from it was a bit weird at the beginning, like a [00:02:40] LinkedIn getting a message the least you not

[00:02:42] Veronica: How you sell a business these days?

[00:02:43] Quirin: So I was like, oh, that's gotta be a LinkedIn and it happens.

[00:02:46] Quirin: one of our first investors was actually the,

[00:02:49] Quirin: cliff [00:02:50] Rosenberg who, launched LinkedIn in Australia, so

[00:02:52] Quirin: it's quite funny. So I could recommend everyone go on LinkedIn and make sure you're visible.

[00:02:58] Chris: your

[00:02:58] Quirin: Andand [00:03:00] then, yeah, it was, reach out, a cold, reach out, and we were recommended by one of the three major booking platforms as a company to look at for OYO

[00:03:08] Quirin: And yeah, had the second meeting. [00:03:10] I met the founder of, OYO or now Prism. Highly inspiring, person down in the detail, big vision. And yeah, for us it meant we could keep building [00:03:20] MadeComfy with a proposal, as a pathway to access our investors and also for ourselves, of course, to monetize. But we are not done yet with what we want to build, with MadeComfy in [00:03:30] Australia, New Zealand, and some other places.

[00:03:32] Quirin: And we can do this now with a much bigger infrastructure, capital. Data, technology backing than we had before. So

[00:03:39] Quirin: very exciting [00:03:40] times. for, yeah, for everyone in our ecosystem, I'd say.

[00:03:43] Chris: Yeah. I mean, not on a lot of our episodes. We don't like to, um, talk too much around the company story. and, you know, we've, we absolutely wish you [00:03:50] the success. But I mean, what we really care about is the sort of. What's happening on the ground in terms of, where, what Airbnb's in this conversation, or short term letting and legislation changes, [00:04:00] et cetera.

[00:04:00] Chris: And, you know, what you are seeing is a business on the ground. Like I said, I think it's been three years since we last chatted. What's been some of the, you know, coming outta COVID, where's it settling [00:04:10] for short-term, letting.

[00:04:11] Quirin: So I sort of say in general, and we talked about this in the past, short term lending is a very old industry. We've been sharing houses since a long time. it's just been more out [00:04:20] of like the other pages, out of catalogs where you used to book. Then, Airbnb consolidated that on a platform.

[00:04:26] Quirin: We had mobiles, we had cloud computing. So all of that [00:04:30] evolved and what then happened during COVID, everything going to be crazy. Everything changed suddenly and. I can't believe it's five years ago

[00:04:37] Quirin: that we were in lockdowns. makes me always feel [00:04:40] old.

[00:04:40] Quirin: And I think five years. and then three years ago since we talked last, but what has happened since is yeah, the market, is getting more and more sophisticated. People are getting more [00:04:50] sophisticated with technology, with also how they plan to now live, work, travel, post COVID, and yeah, all of that we see also, of course, [00:05:00] in regulation. Regulation in general means more certainty for investors. So it's generally a good thing. Once it's written down on paper, it's a clear path forward. Whilst if you don't [00:05:10] have any regulation, you're at risk that something might happen

[00:05:13] Quirin: at any point. So it's a good thing from that point. Of course, on the other hand, you have to be informed and you have to know [00:05:20] what you can and can't do and how to run it, in an efficient and profitable way.

[00:05:24] Chris: It sounds like the legislation's been cooling a little bit though, like the reason we've got a rental crisis is 'cause [00:05:30] of Airbnb, That was sort of the narrative that was popping around. It feels like that's hasn't been in the news as much and hence the legislation changes.

[00:05:38] Chris: Have it been, as you know, is that [00:05:40] what you've noticed and they're not really getting talked about as much?

[00:05:43] Quirin: You look, it's a real thing. Everything went more

[00:05:45] Quirin: expensive. And sometimes you have these moments that I bought, the butter I've been [00:05:50] bought buying for years. And I looked at it $9 50 and I was like, I'm not paying nine 50 for this butter. And I was like, I'll just come back again.

[00:05:56] Quirin: And it's just, there was a new price. I never looked at it. And I think [00:06:00] sometimes you have those moments, everything got more expensive. So that's a fact

[00:06:03] Quirin: So did rent, so did properties. I mean, we all talk about what we investing in property is because property prices should go up and then you want to [00:06:10] have ideally a high yield and all of that.

[00:06:12] Quirin: And, now of course that also means everything grows. and then it's. Of course when you're on the other side of it, if you are, have to pay the rent if you want to [00:06:20] buy a property and you can't, then look for, for sort of, um, reasons. AndAirbnb is a, is a easy scapegoat to of course,blame as is immigrants.

[00:06:28] Quirin: And we have the protest the other [00:06:30] week, stop immigration and well, yeah, let's do that. It's an easy, easy thing to just stop doing something and, see what happens. But it's usually more complex than that and it's not as [00:06:40] straightforward than that. And yeah, so solar shortterm rental impact on housing, supply, on housing affordability, but also on how, people travel. Move. When you [00:06:50] think about, a lot of the holiday homes, are not used by the rich. and fancy, it's people with families that travel. It's getting more expensive for those two. Now you take that away, where do you go? [00:07:00] So yeah, it's, it's more complex and we aim to have a, a part in that, through education, and through ensuring that rules are in place and rules are followed. But that's sort of [00:07:10] in a nutshell. my view on that.

[00:07:11] Veronica: can you give us a bit of a broad brush stroke of where those

[00:07:14] Veronica: rules are up to? Because for a long time there were none. There was just a lot of talk about it, but,

[00:07:18] Veronica: what sort of caps are in place, [00:07:20] what sort of restrictions are there in, and, and I get that

[00:07:22] Veronica: every council in every state has, has different legislation.

[00:07:25] Veronica: But is it, can you give us a broad brush stroke?

[00:07:27] Quirin: Yeah, so it's, it's currently state by state. [00:07:30] Every state is different. So when we look at New South Wales, it's maybe the most evolved one,

[00:07:34] Quirin: and the oldest one since 2021. we now have, the regulation in place that's [00:07:40] 180 day cap on bookings, less than 21 nights. It's also a requirement on, registering your, your short-term rental, having a, um, health and safety [00:07:50] fire plan, uh, for your property. And, a court of conduct in place that is for both guests and hosts. ensuring that those that don't follow the rules, [00:08:00] like having parties or overcrowding and things like that, that they get banned. And also then for, fair trading to. To follow through, on these things. So that's in New South [00:08:10] Wales. Then you have, in New South Wales, Byron Bay, Byron Bay is a place where short-term rentals maybe, or holiday rentals, have, the biggest impact. So in general, about 1.5% of the [00:08:20] properties available in Australia are short-term rentals. In Byron Bay, that's 17.5%.

[00:08:26] Quirin: So a much bigger impact. Of course. Now, of course, you can argue Barron Bay is maybe [00:08:30] not a place where you just live. And work. a lot of people have the holiday house up there.

[00:08:35] Quirin: they have it and then you either rent it out or you don't rent it out. it's a bit of a supply challenge up there too, [00:08:40] but that's why Barron Bay, they have now the 60 day cabin in place for specific locations. and that's sort of in New South Wales. Now other states in Victoria, you've [00:08:50] got a 7.5%,shortterm rental tax, levy that is in the end, paid by the travelers. So it's, it's on top. Made, yeah. traveling more [00:09:00] expensive. New Zealand, we have this, for example, on every kind of

[00:09:02] Quirin: accommodation. So it's not just short-term rentals, but it's also in general hotels and any kind of, accommodation that's not long-term. [00:09:10] Canberra also introduced the levee. So what we are seeing now, levies, are introduced and it's maybe not a, not a bad thing because as long as that is used to then create more supply, that's a good thing. If [00:09:20] it's used to do other things, then maybe not. So, so far, there's not too much transparency in this, but I'm sure people will ask for that transparency, where the dollars go that they're spending. But [00:09:30] yeah, that's Canberra. There's nothing else. in, um, Queensland is currently reviewing a few things. there's very supportive, now they have the Olympics coming. It's a tourism state. we don't [00:09:40] expect too much there. South Australia doesn't have any plans. To implement anything Northern Territories, though not then in wa you have a registration requirement depending on where we [00:09:50] are. Interestingly, wa is our fastest growing market at the moment. 'cause it provides certainty, provides a process and plan of how, especially if you have a [00:10:00] development, with, uh, four to eight properties and you want to, have this short-term rental already, there's a pathway now to apply for that.

[00:10:05] Quirin: And then you

[00:10:06] Quirin: get that. So that's sort of in a nutshell. now I hope I didn't forget [00:10:10] any state, uh, on the main, uh, mainland,

[00:10:12] Veronica: Tasmania, you.

[00:10:13] Quirin: Tasmania is, um, yeah, got Hobart, but Hobart is back and forth a little bit. do we have to register? [00:10:20] But, um, there was a little bit of restriction that was pushed back, that, uh, no they couldn't keep it.

[00:10:24] Quirin: But yeah, So overall what we see in general on, as well caps, [00:10:30] you see places like New York, where caps were put in place and it hasn't really changed anything on the, supply side.

[00:10:36] Quirin: Hotel prices are more expensive, so it's more, more expensive to [00:10:40] travel to New York and

[00:10:41] Quirin: it is still as expensive to to live in New York. in general, what we sort of say is it's, it's a supply, and demand thing. So properties, especially in [00:10:50] Australia where we have a lot of land, it's around streamlining, providing more supply, adding more supply. It's a good thing that people wanna live here, wanna work here, wanna travel and spend. [00:11:00] Dollars, in the economy. So, um, yeah, adding more supply is maybe the easiest pathway,to help not just the people who wanna live, but also those who wanna buy property and invest in [00:11:10] property. And we can't afford to buy a two bedroom apartment in Sydney,

[00:11:14] Chris: Oh, you made a good point there. So you said that New York's put these caps in and then all really the real [00:11:20] impact is HO Hotels got more expensive. So then they basically just shot themselves in the foot and they're getting less tourism, hasn't really ended up with more apartments on the [00:11:30] market to rent.

[00:11:30] Chris: and, you know, you have to say, was that, was that really a good decision for the economy? Is there any places in the world where they've really done the opposite? Like they've introduced caps, they've unwound it and, [00:11:40] what are some of the, the stories,

[00:11:41] Quirin: there are a few, a few locations in the US where, those caps are, are removed because it's, it's. difficult to see the impact,and [00:11:50] deliver yourself in a way. when you think about, you wanna make it in,as attractive as, as, as possible for people to invest in properties and build properties.

[00:11:57] Quirin: Now, if you restrict the way you use it, it's not really an [00:12:00] incentive. an encouragement to get people to

[00:12:02] Quirin: to develop and build in your location, especially if, if you're not the only place. we see Melbourne, maybe one of the most restrictive places [00:12:10] in general around property. we see the, the market in, in Melbourne.

[00:12:13] Quirin: It's maybe not currently where.Most investors are going to, to say, I wanna buy a property in, Melbourne. When [00:12:20] you think about in general, it's one of the more regulated markets,in

[00:12:23] Quirin: Australia compared to Yeah. Some of the other capital cities.

[00:12:27] Veronica: Well see the Melbourne thing's quite interesting because [00:12:30] it seems to be, depends where you currently live,

[00:12:33] Veronica: as to what your attitude towards Melbourne property is.

[00:12:36] Veronica: So I've spoken to a few Melburnians who are [00:12:40] very, anti, they've just. Like, you know, we've caught the taxes we are selling because it just doesn't make sense anymore and we're not confident the government's going to not do further things.

[00:12:49] Veronica: And then you've [00:12:50] got, and quite a, apparently quite a, a migration of investment dollars coming from places like Brisbane and Perth where they've had a lot of equity, uplift, uplifting their own properties, and [00:13:00] now they're seeking another city that they think is gonna do the same thing their city has just

[00:13:03] Veronica: done. So the attitude towards, you know, Melbourne in particular in terms of investing, sort of depends [00:13:10] less on the fundamentals and understanding really what drives a property market, but more a reaction to their own experience. sort of curious though. I think that idea about, you know.[00:13:20]

[00:13:20] Veronica: Introducing caps actually just makes travel more expensive.

[00:13:23] Veronica: and people will still travel and it just obviously weeds out people who can't afford the new rates or [00:13:30] whatever. but surely that'd be a good thing like New York, I mean, look at Barcelona for example, right? If, if Barcelona and I don't know the story, you can probably, you may know, but you know, if [00:13:40] Barcelona introduced a cap and that reduced tourism, the locals would be delighted.

[00:13:44] Veronica: 'cause at the end of the day, they'd be happy that tourists pay more to go there and therefore there'd be less tourists. So

[00:13:49] Quirin: I've only [00:13:50] watched it, was it a four corner? Was

[00:13:50] Veronica: it foreign correspondence? show, so I'm, I'm only going on what I've seen in terms of news reports and, current affairs reports.

[00:13:57] Veronica: it's just, there's sort of two ways to look at [00:14:00] it. And if you do increase the rate, it's a different demand. I mean, every government, every politician comes out saying more supply. It seems to be a really handy thing to say, well, [00:14:10] supply will solve everybody's problems.

[00:14:11] Veronica: But like you said earlier, it's a bit more complex than that. Right.

[00:14:14] Veronica: What I'm curious though is the owners, so the investors that have [00:14:20] properties who have now, got legislation that have restricted their use of those properties for short term rental, if there's a cap of, what did you say, 180 days in New South

[00:14:29] Veronica: [00:14:30] Wales where the caps have been applied, has there been evidence of people really making a lot less money, from their investment properties in the short term space?

[00:14:38] Quirin: So let me [00:14:40] start with the first part of your question. So Barcelona, Amsterdam, to mention maybe two. Uh. Bit different. the, the cities are very old. you have a lot of restrictions in how high you [00:14:50] can build

[00:14:50] Quirin: them, how high you can go. We can't change the property.

[00:14:52] Quirin: So what you have there is what you have,

[00:14:55] Quirin: you can't add. So of course then you say, well, we need to have some kind of healthy balance. We can't add

[00:14:59] Quirin: more [00:15:00] stock. and we want to have a, a certain balance

[00:15:02] Quirin: now that does not happen really in, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Canberra. there is no restriction on how you can go.

[00:15:07] Quirin: a lot of heritage protection, around, [00:15:10] um, locations where short-term rentals are. like popular. So at different problems and different problems. And that's often easy to say, ah, look at Barcelona. That might work. It's a very different [00:15:20] problem than they have

[00:15:20] Quirin: over here. Now, when you talk about now, again, people in, certain locations that, now less tourism is a better thing.

[00:15:27] Quirin: Now if you talk to housekeeping businesses, corner [00:15:30] shops, all the kind of shops that are really like, depending on people coming in, families don't stay. As long in hotels, then they would stay in a place where they have two or three rooms. I [00:15:40] have three kids like we usually travel kids club or it has to be house.

[00:15:43] Quirin: 'cause

[00:15:44] Quirin: otherwise it's not, it is not healthy. And we need a holiday after the holiday,for all of this. it is more context because it's [00:15:50] always different. That's why CAPS have maybe a place in certain places like Amsterdam.

[00:15:54] Quirin: Barcelona, I think here in Australia, it's a very easy thing to say, let's just cap this and [00:16:00] then not worry about that.

[00:16:01] Quirin: also when we think about Australia, property is,a very special thing, for us here in Australia about investing in properties and not adding more [00:16:10] supply means like it would be more and more hard for. younger ones to invest into property because by nature, you have to get into somewhere. So I think adding supply is a very important, very [00:16:20] important part. Now, when we look, um, into, uh, Sydney, or New South Wales, where those caps imply the regulation in general did a couple of things. First one, it got [00:16:30] really, really hard for anyone that is. I'd say doing the wrong thing, not following rules, especially overcrowding, putting in eight people in a one or two better. And all of these things. [00:16:40] because the, every property has to be registered with Airbnb or booking.com, and then you have to add how many people say you cannot get around that.

[00:16:48] Quirin: So that was really good that we did [00:16:50] a lot of people out that did the wrong thing in general. And of course it got more difficult. So that means that, more people that were doing it themselves before, went down the path, well, [00:17:00] I'm not, it's too complex. I have to register. I have to get this kind of plan mapped out.

[00:17:04] Quirin: I'm not sure what the fines will be. I don't wanna do it. and then stopped doing it.

[00:17:09] Quirin:

[00:17:09] Quirin: now that, um, [00:17:10] reduced again, supply, overall fast, like New South Wales is one of the strongest markets because again, it provides clarity. We know what we can generate, With short [00:17:20] and midterm, stays and bookings So overall, it's something where I'm happy for every location to have similar of, rules in place, like in New South Wales because it's done the [00:17:30] right thing, to this market. But

[00:17:31] Quirin: of course, you still hear critics that say it's not, you know, enough

[00:17:34] Quirin: because prices are still go up. and it's still not good enough. Takes too long to build.

[00:17:38] Chris: in that New South Wales? No, [00:17:40] the, the 180 days. Okay. So there's been less of them coming to market. 'cause it's like, it's all too complex. I worry about the regulation and you know, I get that and it's maybe not as big opportunity as I thought it [00:17:50] would

[00:17:50] Chris: be because I can't do the 3, 6, 5.

[00:17:52] Chris: But market who

[00:17:52] Quirin: you can still do 3, 6, 5. You can

[00:17:54] Quirin: still do, yeah.

[00:17:55] Chris: so I'm saying that wouldn't they just go, oh, well I'll do the, 180, but then in the quieter [00:18:00] periods, because there's a rental crisis, I'll just do it for three months. Terms fully furnished people in between homes. There's lots of, people out there that just want some short term rental.

[00:18:09] Chris: Have you [00:18:10] noticed that that's been the pivot in, you've now got a lot of people renting for, you know, a month or more. It's.

[00:18:15] Quirin: so far we, we have a strong, supply of, especially looking [00:18:20] at, insurances and into immigration. Anyone that is between homes, we do have quite a lot. and then you have your longer corporate relocations,around [00:18:30] hospitals where people are for longer, time and they wanna stay closer to their sort of. left one that is in, in, in hospital. That's where we see a lot of, opportunity for us in, in general [00:18:40] in those quieter times. and then it's all about finding those. So there's still not I Airbnb not the place where you go to when you look for three months place. we work a lot [00:18:50] directly then with buyers agent, uh, bias agents, uh, let's you guys, but relocation agents, um, insurances. People would go to and say, Hey, I

[00:18:56] Quirin: need a place to, to stay and live. And then, they would recommend us [00:19:00] because we're integrated and easy to find and book.

[00:19:03] Chris: Have you noticed that there's been a lot of investors that have just not making as much money and they're just going back and putting it on the rental market? or is it [00:19:10] the ones that were marginally making money on Airbnb? The ones, but the cash cow ones have sort of stuck it out.

[00:19:16] Chris: what's up? And.

[00:19:17] Quirin: Yeah, so, so it really depends, on the location and it [00:19:20] depends also on the individual. what is we still see is the same as before, like short term rental is not a three months and six months strategy where you just put up on the [00:19:30] Airbnb and you make four times the amount. It's something like you have your property needs to be. Competing against other properties in regards to how it looks and feels. [00:19:40] You have to build up your reviews. You have your whole ramp up period for the first two or three months where you have to yeah, gain traction with the OTAs. So it's something where we say you [00:19:50] have to look at that for.

[00:19:51] Quirin: 1, 2, 3 years. especially after the first six months. But then it depends on when you go live. Do you go live in peak season? or like now it's [00:20:00] maybe one of the best times to sort of start, because it's pre peak season. So you, you do get a lot of traction. Yeah. and we do have people that say, oh, it doesn't work out after the first or second month, [00:20:10] because what we even, we do communicate around the cashflow at the beginning.

[00:20:15] Quirin: when the reality that hits that you make less, in the first, like four weeks or six weeks than you [00:20:20] thought, and you are paying the brokerage with your income, then that's maybe not the right thing in general to do short term when you have a, a tight cash flow.

[00:20:29] Veronica: [00:20:30] So would you say that is, is it quite a saturated market now? I mean, is it now like harder to get that runway and to get up to a point where you do have con, you know, consistent [00:20:40] bookings, and you know, you are the, the place of choice? I mean, I know whenever I jump on Airbnb, there's always a lot to choose from.is it more competitive and therefore that obviously drives [00:20:50] prices down as well,

[00:20:50] Quirin: Now for us, we are, um, like July, uh, we were around 26% ahead of last year. August is around 16%. So that's, we always use [00:21:00] RevPAR, which is the occupancy rate times the nightly rate.

[00:21:03] Quirin: that gives you a rev, um, , revenue per average room, right? So

[00:21:06] Quirin: tilting or property. and then you compare this to the previous year. [00:21:10] Stand at the moment. But also we, when we look at us, we, we now have a big boost, with, all prism around merchandising sophistication of revenue management. So we [00:21:20] did expect an increase in general and sort of looking

[00:21:23] Quirin: forward, we. We should do, about 15 to 25% better than previous year, with all our properties.

[00:21:29] Quirin: And that's [00:21:30] purely on distribution. we have a few new networks now, like GDS, which is the global distribution systems, or the companies use like BHB Rio Tinto or Google. [00:21:40] They, their staff has to book through certain platforms. So

[00:21:43] Quirin: getting those properties on those platforms, which again. Then,helps us to, to, to achieve rates, um, and [00:21:50] occupancies that others can't. So yeah, it got a bit more sophisticated, as I mentioned earlier, and, and not as easy for just putting on Airbnb. We have to understand [00:22:00] where the ideal tenant, guess for your property books, and that might change depending on what time of the year that is.

[00:22:07] Speaker 2: I'm on a personal mission to help more people [00:22:10] make better property decisions. You know, most people don't realize that they can cost themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars over the medium to long term when they make property decisions without all of the [00:22:20] information that they need. And what I do is help people with tricky real estate problems, which offer masqueraders simple questions like, should I sell my investment property because the interest re [00:22:30] payments are hurting, or should I buy before I sell?

[00:22:33] Speaker 2: Or the other way around. You could connect with me and access all of the tools that I've created to help you make better property decisions at [00:22:40] Veronica Morgan dot com au. And there you'll find resources for first home buyers, details about my buyer's agent mentoring program. You could connect with my Sydney based property management [00:22:50] and buyer's agency teams, Australia wide vendor advocacy.

[00:22:53] Speaker 2: Or ask me for introduction to the small group of buyer agents that I would personally recommend across the country. [00:23:00] That's Veronica Morgan dot com au. If you're considering a property moose, which is buying your first time, upgrading, renovating, or investing, the team here at Alcove would love to help you think through your [00:23:10] decision and get the finance right.

[00:23:12] Speaker 3: Please go to cove.com au to reach out.

[00:23:15] Chris: Could you give us an example of just a sort of property that, you know, not like the [00:23:20] actual location, even if you wanna keep that private, but you know, a part of what city and where the, it is a really good trade off, right? Like if they put it on the short to, they put it on the long term rental [00:23:30] market, they'll get, you know, 800 bucks a week.

[00:23:32] Chris: if they put it through short stage, they get $1,600 a week, over 12 months. Like, is there still that sort of arbitrage. In [00:23:40] certain pockets where it really is. If you had that type of property, you'd be much, much better considering short-term lending.

[00:23:46] Quirin: Yeah, so again, it really depends on, on the [00:23:50] location. a few probably, uh, locations where we do exceptionally well, free mental, uh, in, in wa Perth in general. it is a place where you don't just go for a day or [00:24:00] two, maybe I'd sort of

[00:24:00] Quirin: say. So if you go there, you. Fly five hours

[00:24:03] Quirin: and you, and you stay for the week?

[00:24:04] Quirin: No. And then again, staying in our hotel versus the short term rentals. we sort of, uh, just [00:24:10] added about 60 properties there in this, uh, calendar year. then Adelaide is a really strong market, where we see, again, people staying longer for various reasons.

[00:24:19] Quirin: for work. [00:24:20] And then sort working towards the minds, or around the wineries. and if you go there, you also go likely for a week, and not just for a couple of days. so [00:24:30] there are a true, really, really strong markets. Brisbane,is a market around. It's a lot of demand at the moment around the construction, building for the Olympics. like we see a [00:24:40] strong delta to, to other ways of, of rentals. Sydney, in general there is no, no, no big change, to the past. The other markets I mentioned there, there's a clear, [00:24:50] increase. Canberra is a very strong market. in general, it's very low,seasonality as always, something happening around politics, in Canberra.

[00:24:57] Quirin: And you again have, a lot of, uh, yeah, [00:25:00] corporate, uh, transactions, in Canberra. Again, legislation is also really. Really favorable, uh, uh, there. those situations we're talking about, it is you do [00:25:10] aim net, that's after use of fees where you want to work away with at least 20% more, which then, justifies for the fluctuation you potentially have. [00:25:20] But yeah,we are, unless you're in a regional location like Bateman Bay for example, where no one, there's very little movement in Bateman Bay in May and June, but, uh, a lot. [00:25:30] so you do make your money in December and January. also one of those markets, like if you added this on long term, it's just be a different city.

[00:25:36] Quirin: No.

[00:25:37] Quirin: very different town. where you have a lot of the can variant [00:25:40] holiday, but there's no other reason. To do that, to go there. Uh, so yeah, that's to share a few locations that are maybe not obvious.

[00:25:48] Veronica: I'm surprised at the fragmentation [00:25:50] though, of all the, of the platforms. because I just jump on every now and then if I wanna travel somewhere.

[00:25:54] Veronica: Like, you know, the idea that you've got corporates that have, you know, specific endorsed platforms and you've gotta be on [00:26:00] all of them. I guess that's a sign of a maturing market, right? That you've got, you know, more opportunities to advertise, but it makes it more complicated.Is that what MadeComfy does, you're sort of like an aggregator?

[00:26:09] Quirin: [00:26:10] A bit more than that now because we do facilitate all the gas communication, from a, not just distribution, but revenue management, the coordination, housekeeping,

[00:26:18] Quirin: maintenance and all of this. it's a [00:26:20] bit more, a bit more than that, but,with anything, if you want to. These sales, they sell, something. It used to be you just have to be on Amazon

[00:26:28] Quirin: now. [00:26:30] Yeah.

[00:26:30] Quirin: If you're not on social media getting on this, I think in two or three years time you'll struggle to do the same self on Amazon that you will do on TikTok,so I think it's [00:26:40] in general, as technology get more sophisticated. You have to be on top of the game that's why we exist. But that's one of the sort of reasons why, we got acquired. because there's a lot of [00:26:50] growth in the

[00:26:50] Quirin: market and a lot of future, in this. it does get a little bit more. More complicated, but, it's still not rocket science to be honest.

[00:26:57] Quirin: in the end you get a lower night and then you increase [00:27:00] it, you learn from it, and then you don't make that mistake again

[00:27:02] Chris: I mean, how's Airbnb going with all this? I mean, are they sort of dominating still? This, you know, it's kind of like Kleenex of the tissues or the [00:27:10] Uber for the taxis, They've got the first move advantage, and they can charge fees for it. I mean, they're obviously a big part in the field, so you're not gonna talk negative about 'em.

[00:27:16] Chris: But,have they got much competition coming into the marketplace? you [00:27:20] know, even like Uber Eats, right? Like I, when I found out how much the restaurants were sort of getting, you know, charged for it, and then all of a sudden the apps for the restaurants got better. Right? So you [00:27:30] could. You know, book directly with your restaurant, just as nice as experiences booking on Uber Eats, and you knew the restaurant would make more money. So are you finding that type of thing happening in the short term, letting space [00:27:40] where it's, booking directly or at a cheaper cost for the landlord?

[00:27:44] Quirin: it is in the end up to the OTAs to attract people to book through them. [00:27:50] Yeah. And of course Airbnb started in some way. and others did too. In the first time we sort of talked in 2017, we had around 78% of our [00:28:00] bookings were coming from Airbnb. now that has changed. We are now at about 35% comes from

[00:28:05] Quirin: Airbnb. very similar spoken.com. Then got VRBO [00:28:10] and behind booking.com. You also have Agoda. yeah, a lot of, smaller platforms that are part of the booking network.

[00:28:15] Quirin: And then of course you have the Expedia VRBO stays, [00:28:20] HomeAway. Network. and then, yeah, our corporate arm is after to 15, 20%, through now.

[00:28:26] Quirin: So again, that mix and then enables us [00:28:30] to achieve higher rates that maybe we would do only on, on Airbnb. so in the end, all of those platforms have a certain target, not like the [00:28:40] book, not com for example. Of course. They, capture a lot of bookings from people that like, use them to book their, like hotel stays and in general, you're a member there, you get your discounts [00:28:50] and so on within, if you're part of the genius program. Airbnb. If you, are proud about your rating on traveling and you like to have your sort of,mood board where you [00:29:00] stay, then you will unlikely go to booking.com. So different type of travelers,

[00:29:04] Quirin: come from different, uh, platforms.

[00:29:06] Quirin: and then again, the corporates, they're only allowed to book certain [00:29:10] platforms and that's often not broken com and not Airbnb.

[00:29:12] Quirin: And they come from a different platform. Now, some of them are accessible for individuals and some are not. for some you have to be a company and you [00:29:20] have to have a certain minimum size for them to, enabling you to connect with them. I sometimes book Airbnb and sometimes book, book.com,sometimes stays, sometimes MadeComfy, they'll say in [00:29:30] our, um, platforms, uh, in our properties.

[00:29:32] Quirin: But, uh, yeah.

[00:29:32] Veronica: It must be a difficult, thing to measure though, because what I'm, I'm imagining that some properties would be on more than one of those. In fact, [00:29:40] many properties would be on more than one site, wouldn't they?

[00:29:42] Veronica: So it's sort of interesting that you can measure where your bookings come from, but it could be

[00:29:46] Veronica: shifting preferences or just that it presents better on [00:29:50] one side or it's priced better on at one side.

[00:29:52] Veronica: I find that sort of, you know, the Airbnb's percentage has shrunk quite dramatically. Are they losing market [00:30:00] share or is the market growing and they're still growing within that? It's just that their share is smaller.

[00:30:05] Quirin: So I think for us, we, we work a lot with data and when [00:30:10] we do our appraisals for property owners, we look at the location, the competition on certain platforms, the, sort of amenity, how they compare with [00:30:20] others, and it's so knowing a lot about your property. Who you would attract. And then if your property is larger property bit further out, then [00:30:30] likely it might do better on stays in general.

[00:30:32] Quirin: because you have more, a lot of families that still go and book with, uh, stays. VRBO versus A One Better in Melbourne will do really strong in [00:30:40] booking dot really strong on the Pokemon com now because,there are also different ways of listing we would have. Certain multi listings accounts, so it looks a bit like a hotel. overall, you then get, um, more availability. You offer more [00:30:50] availability to the OTA and more availability means a higher chance to get a booking. and with that, you get pushed further up, within the OTA. So, so a few things where you know [00:31:00] what your target segment is. You then tailor around it and we know quite early, If it is a typical Airbnb or ing.com property, or vr, and then often it also comes, if the [00:31:10] first booking comes from ing.com, like, uh, you then get the first review, then you get likely the second one. and similar. and then of course, like you do have the portals [00:31:20] work all a bit different book.com, networks a bit different than Airbnb. with their hosts, with their sort of partners, and all of different ways to ensure they

[00:31:28] Quirin: get, those first [00:31:30] bookings,earlier than the other ones. so being aware of that helps to how to, maximize that.

[00:31:36] Chris: I think you're in Victoria. Do have you had any, um, obviously there just land tax things down [00:31:40] there and, you know, holiday homes down the mornings in Peninsula would became quite expensive to own. you know, particularly if you left it empty. I mean, how have you seen some. [00:31:50] Parts of the country where you've tried a lot of people selling at all.

[00:31:54] Quirin: Yeah. I think Modern Peninsula is a, is an interesting market. Yeah. Because you say it got very expensive, [00:32:00] and it got also very expensive to book. it is Carbon not a, a market where we see a lot of. Yeah, a lot of people want to buy theirs. Maybe quite a few [00:32:10] people wanna sell. Also, businesses that approach

[00:32:11] Quirin: us, that wanna sell their short-term rental business in Mornington, because you've got a bit more, they've got more difficult, not also a solution there. 'cause [00:32:20] unless you, no one wants the properties to drop in value. but how do you do that? No, they're one of those easy questions. Now, if you don't add a cap on top of that, you get a. A drop

[00:32:29] Quirin: in [00:32:30] property prices. and that's not good,for many people. yeah, so Mornington is a difficult one. It is a beautiful place and, but the whole text did not help to make it more [00:32:40] affordable. Mainly Melbourne, still to go to Moton for the holiday. And it's not the one from Perth that flies to

[00:32:45] Quirin: Melbourne to holiday in Mornington. It's a lot of those families that [00:32:50] in the end pay that extra tax.

[00:32:52] Chris: But there's no pockets you can think of around the country where you know a lot of. people just said, oh, it's just not making sense to own

[00:32:57] Chris: a

[00:32:58] Chris: property.

[00:32:58] Quirin: Byron Bay. [00:33:00] is one of those. It could be interesting to see how that was. those that can, and it's one of those, yeah. You have a lot of really expensive properties in Byron Bay. I don't know what the solution there is now. [00:33:10] you now have less people up in by bay.

[00:33:12] Quirin: Yeah, those properties are still there. I can't see that work out for, everyone unless it becomes the barren Bay of 40 [00:33:20] years or 30 years ago.

[00:33:21] Chris: Less tourism means the shops don't grow and then there's no economy because people can't get some to rent,

[00:33:26] Chris: and

[00:33:27] Chris: so there's long term renters. Yeah,

[00:33:28] Quirin: the, the long-term [00:33:30] renters that might not wanna live there anymore because they don't have a job. when you think about all the cleaning companies or the cleaners and, people that work, um, a lot of luxury properties around [00:33:40] concierge, delivery chefs, cooks,if that amount reduces, and, you know, why would you live in Barron Bay if you will still struggle to afford a property in Barron Bay? and this is maybe a more of a [00:33:50] midterm piece now, what kind of, industry does buy and bay attract now? You can of course become a tech hub. Queenstown is currently, seeing some heavy investment to become a tech hub, to attract,[00:34:00] tech workers. They're, building a university there, and a lot of infrastructure to attract that.

[00:34:05] Quirin: And then that's another site. like pillar next to tourism to, to [00:34:10] do that? No. And, but it takes time. Not something that you can do overnight, but I'm not sure if Brian Bays considering that now

[00:34:16] Veronica: one of the arguments for places like Byron Bay to sort of [00:34:20] put a cap on, short term rentals though, is really about, the essential workers and, you know, the workers that do work in a cafe, do [00:34:30] work in the supermarket that

[00:34:31] Veronica: do work, you know, in the ambulance station, whatever, that they were struggling to find accommodation.

[00:34:36] Veronica: Within a reasonable distance and at a reasonable price.

[00:34:39] Veronica: and I [00:34:40] know, you know, in a lot of coastal areas, a lot of people do like to do the tart up of the cheap

[00:34:45] Veronica: older rental, you know, and do it, do it tart up and then put it on the Airbnb, you know, [00:34:50] on the, on the short term rental market. And, but that's at the lower end of the scale.

[00:34:53] Veronica: the

[00:34:54] Veronica: higher end of the scale you're talking about there, about the. Holiday homes, I would imagine that that [00:35:00] person's not gonna sell their holiday home because they got a rental cap. they're not

[00:35:03] Quirin: do?

[00:35:04] Quirin: They, they they will still go there once or twice a year and their rest is empty.

[00:35:08] Veronica: it's been, that's been the case for a [00:35:10] long, long time though. This, this is not, I mean, short term

[00:35:12] Quirin: It's been rented out in, in, in the meantime. Now, you had people that would travel to Byron Bay, spend dollars in Byron

[00:35:18] Quirin: Bay. They're now not going to [00:35:20] Byron Bay

[00:35:20] Quirin: because they go somewhere else.

[00:35:21] Quirin: So that is one thing. Also got more expensive now because you only have 60 nights a year where of course you maximize it

[00:35:27] Quirin: So it got even more expensive to go to

[00:35:29] Veronica: But how do [00:35:30] that's true? But how do you reconcile that? That's the problem is the balance though, isn't it? It's the balance of on the other end of the spectrum. You've got the, the workers that can't afford to [00:35:40] live. There and can't staff a restaurant, for example.

[00:35:43] Veronica: Now you're saying the restaurant's not getting the custom because the tourists aren't going there, and so the people that [00:35:50] would've been tenants would've had a job in the restaurant.

[00:35:52] Veronica: Now there's no jobs, so you got, they couldn't live there before and now they couldn't work. There is, you know, somewhere in the middle surely would've been a better [00:36:00] outcome. Is

[00:36:00] Veronica: that what you are proposing?

[00:36:02] Quirin: Yeah. And that is adding more supply. Now, if you own a property, you bought a property in Byron Bay, you would've not boughted a bargain in the last five years. You would've [00:36:10] paid

[00:36:10] Quirin: a significant premium because the way it is rented. Now you buy this. Now you, unless you have a lot of cash, you buy in cash.

[00:36:17] Quirin: Most of us would finance it. Now you have a [00:36:20] mortgage of

[00:36:20] Quirin: one $1.5 million to buy your two, three bedroom home. in Pine Bay, you're not going to rent it out for $450 a week. 'cause it doesn't make economically sense for you.[00:36:30]

[00:36:30] Veronica: No, but their argument would be that owner occupiers couldn't afford to buy there. You know what I mean? you can't just say, oh, now the town's gonna go to to shit, because basically

[00:36:39] Quirin: I'm not,

[00:36:39] Veronica: gone. [00:36:40]

[00:36:40] Quirin: not, saying

[00:36:40] Veronica: there is that tension though, isn't there, between that if people have been buying into an area like that under the premise it's affordable [00:36:50] because I can rent it out,a certain amount of time, but now it's not affordable.

[00:36:54] Veronica: Their argument, the counter argument for that will be, now that opens up opportunities for owner

[00:36:59] Veronica: occupies [00:37:00] to not get priced out.

[00:37:01] Veronica: I mean, is that, isn't that

[00:37:02] Quirin: So, so that means,

[00:37:04] Veronica: town?

[00:37:05] Quirin: that means that, if you just bought the property three years ago, let's just have a 2 million, you're going [00:37:10] to sell it for a million.

[00:37:11] Veronica: That's been the case up there. Honestly. I mean, I used to film the show up there, what, 15 years ago. And at that period of time there were, there [00:37:20] nothing was selling for anywhere near what people had paid for it. Like

[00:37:23] Veronica: that is a deeply, volatile

[00:37:25] Veronica: market up there.

[00:37:26] Veronica: And because people do go up there, I mean, and [00:37:30] as happened with the sea change three change that followed lockdowns.

[00:37:33] Veronica: A lot of people were saying, oh, I can't afford to go on my skiing holiday, so I'm gonna buy a week weekender. I mean, it's actually not

[00:37:39] Veronica: good [00:37:40] decision making really when it comes to buying property, but that's not new up in Byron Bay. You know

[00:37:45] Veronica: that, that fact that you can have really steep climbs and falls in property [00:37:50] prices.

[00:37:50] Quirin: So I'm not saying it goes to shit now, would I say it will change? It will not be the same as it was

[00:37:56] Quirin: because the nature of people who

[00:37:58] Quirin: are in Byron Bay [00:38:00] will by default change. Now if Byron Bay was around surrounded by cliffs or it was like an Amsterdam or tic, of Vene where you just can't [00:38:10] build around, I get it like you want to. Provide more space, but by bay

[00:38:14] Quirin: is surrounded by space. Half of it, half is

[00:38:17] Quirin: ocean, but the other half there is space. And [00:38:20] of course, I like it takes more time, to develop, to open. but it's not a, a 10, 20 year game. It is like you open more space and the easiest one, if you [00:38:30] are a new home buyer, you want to buy, um, um, move to Byron Way.

[00:38:33] Quirin: Well, you buy some land, build a house in an affordable way because you have less competition potentially. [00:38:40] That is something. Now, if it was combined, now would be interesting to actually look at, how the. Approval rates for new developments has increased, inbound bay. And if was, if there was [00:38:50] an similar, push for that.

[00:38:52] Quirin: Yeah. not what same, but if, you as a politician do own properties, maybe there is, um, there's a reason why you don't want to add too much [00:39:00] supply, because more supply Now, if that gets a bit off, then now your property prices go down, which you don't want if your own

[00:39:07] Quirin: property. So for me, by way, it's a [00:39:10] supply game.

[00:39:10] Quirin: We add more supply. it's

[00:39:11] Quirin: great if it's a wanted city or a wanted town. People wanna be there to add more supply and grow it. And,when I look at Germany for example, you had a lot of [00:39:20] immigrants, in Germany over the last 10 years. What happened there a lot is that the government build accommodation.

[00:39:25] Quirin: So you need affordable accommodation that investors will not build. The government builds this accommodation[00:39:30]

[00:39:30] Quirin: and that's kept, it's kept, they build it. instead of subsidies in other areas, government builds 500 homes in a small town.

[00:39:37] Quirin: And that happened within a few years in Germany.

[00:39:39] Veronica: [00:39:40] our

[00:39:40] Quirin: a solution

[00:39:40] Veronica: our governments have have hung up, hung up. That is their responsibility decades ago. So,

[00:39:46] Veronica: you know, I think that that's, yeah,

[00:39:49] Quirin: it's the whole build to [00:39:50] rent thing where as a government you invest and then yes, you can cap zeros, you cap the rents. You, provide this accommodation and look after it. it's nice. It's [00:40:00] not that difficult to go that path. But as you can see from our debate, I think there are a lot of pathways and each pathway is maybe not, a straight home run.

[00:40:09] Quirin: and easy

[00:40:09] Quirin: [00:40:10] to, to do not to win elections from that and all of that. So in the end, it's about winning elections now,that's what I learned,help people to win elections and,things will move.

[00:40:19] Chris: I [00:40:20] mean, Australia's been pretty bad at that, right? We've got 25,000, 25 million people, but they're in a stuck in a few cities, right? We haven't been. Yeah. And that's a prime example of a city that, or a town [00:40:30] that is on a strong growth, profile. And instead of sort of maybe harnessing that and go, okay, we've got a short term issue here where you just cannot get people housed.

[00:40:39] Chris: Do we bring in [00:40:40] some demoable? rather than let's just kill the whole economy by basically cutting down the tourism, which is the one thing was just driving the town,

[00:40:46] Chris: right? Was people going and spending money a beautiful place to [00:40:50] holiday. I mean, there's a lot of people pissed off about the traffic.

[00:40:51] Chris: There's a lot of people pissed off around, um, you know, these other things.

[00:40:55] Quirin: people don't like change. That's

[00:40:57] Quirin: one of the

[00:40:57] Veronica: hang on a minute. There is single lane roads driving [00:41:00] in and out of there is a bloody nightmare. Traffic

[00:41:02] Quirin: You can make it too late.

[00:41:03] Quirin: You can also build two lane

[00:41:05] Quirin: roads, right? Like,

[00:41:06] Veronica: They could. Absolutely, they could, but they haven't,

[00:41:08] Veronica: But these things take time, you know,

[00:41:09] Veronica: [00:41:10] and in the meantime there's a lot of pressure,

[00:41:12] Veronica: on the people that live there,

[00:41:13] Quirin: of course, but what I, what I'm saying there, there, there are a couple of ways to, to deal with, certain things. One is to encourage investment. You encourage [00:41:20] billing infrastructure. And the other one is you restrict, you

[00:41:22] Quirin: restrain and you tell, well, you have to do this lockdown style. And I think sometimes it's the, is the right moments to tell people, [00:41:30] what to do. And the other one is to encourage. People to, build, invest, and grow. 'cause that generates jobs, that generates infrastructure. Yes. Comes with some pain like, travel [00:41:40] currently over the bridge at the moment and can't wait for the

[00:41:43] Quirin: whole waringa, free web update, upgrade to be done.

[00:41:45] Quirin: been three years of pain. but yeah, once it's done, great. I'm [00:41:50] always more on the side, like invest in for, uh, make it attractive for people to put in, invest in your location, because it's a positive thing. No, then, thenincentivize the [00:42:00] right things.

[00:42:00] Quirin: Incentivize but don't restrain and restrict, 'cause that is usually not attracting capital.

[00:42:06] Chris: is that something that, that does sometimes frustrate you that, it feels like in New South Wales where [00:42:10] we're embracing that a little bit more than we probably have in recent years, but,other countries around the world are very good at, just working with what the, you know, much faster.

[00:42:19] Chris: Yeah.

[00:42:19] Quirin: [00:42:20] Yeah, look, there are a lot of things that, um, now I maybe more Australian that I've been German like living now since my kids are all Australian and everything. I

[00:42:27] Quirin: live here. This is my home. yeah,

[00:42:29] Quirin: [00:42:30] So, when I look at a lot of things that are done well here in Australia, the whole balance of it's a safe place.

[00:42:36] Quirin: We see what happen today in the US again, for example, like a lot of [00:42:40] positive things in Australia around trading a few things. Unlimited speed. auto bonds would be incredible. Like I miss those. and a funny, funny thing, like I haven't [00:42:50] had a speeding fight in Australia in six years. I went to Germany in July for, I had a car for 24 hours. I had two speeding tickets, which is ridiculous

[00:42:59] Chris: You'd think it'd [00:43:00] be opposite, wouldn't you? You know, all the

[00:43:01] Quirin: yeah, yeah,

[00:43:02] Quirin: yeah. But then the, the unlimited speed is like for like 10 kilometers and then comes a one kilometer, one 20 section. And,

[00:43:09] Veronica: [00:43:10] Oh, that's hilarious.

[00:43:11] Quirin: and, but so saying like, um, in this one, I got fined in Germany, which is supposed to be more, liberal with, soft cast.

[00:43:18] Quirin: But I don't wanna judge [00:43:20] anything because I think, um, I owe. Australia a lot. I was able to come here, build my, my future, my family business,um, I get to live my sort

[00:43:29] Quirin: of passion. A [00:43:30] lot of things are good, but of course like with everything, a lot of things are there to improve.

[00:43:34] Quirin: That's why there's, there is not just one party, there's several parties. and one thing I think that [00:43:40] restricts Australia is the, I see in Germany we have five year term. In states, states, and in a five year term, you can do a lot more in the first two years that no

[00:43:48] Quirin: one likes you to do. And [00:43:50] then see the benefit in year four or five. I think in the three years here, it's very difficult, to go a bit more long, long-term, uh, thinking. So that's maybe one. And then [00:44:00] unless you have, yeah, a big advantage on seed already. You, you, when we call less whiskey, Some of those investments. but uh, yeah, I think overall, Australia is I think one of the best places to, [00:44:10] to be live by invest and, debate about things now without having to fear, about what you think about.

[00:44:17] Chris: Alright. Good answer, Karen. I finished and. [00:44:20] When they are property. Dumbo mate. Is there anything happened in the last few years where you think, what was that person thinking?

[00:44:26] Quirin: what I see is that, That people still [00:44:30] mistake, positive cashflow and positive gearing.

[00:44:33] Quirin: especially in, uh, in short-term rentals. You can have a positive cashflow property, but it's negatively geared if you [00:44:40] do the right things. so considering your depreciation on furniture, that you especially have with short term rentals, you can run it negatively [00:44:50] geared. but cash flow positive

[00:44:51] Quirin: now. That's one of the things that, I see. That almost most of the property owners we talked to are not aware of and sort of, [00:45:00] um, yeah, forget about especially the depreciation of, of the furniture at some of the other costs, plus all the fees and, costs they have to run.

[00:45:09] Quirin: Short term rental or [00:45:10] short rental is more expensive because you do. Have higher costs. You can deduct them all from your taxes, of course, from your income. But yeah, especially the depreciation part to be [00:45:20] aware of that don't,

[00:45:21] Quirin: do work with a good accountant. when you, I think generally invest in property, it's a good thing to have a good accountant. especially with short term, that's something that I've seen people [00:45:30] don't know.

[00:45:31] Chris: Yep. Good. Good answer. Alright, Kerry, congrats again on the, um, on the sale and, uh, yeah, and I wish you all the best and, uh, [00:45:40] appreciate the chat and giving us an update on the Airbnb slash short, short, safe

[00:45:43] Chris: letting world. Um.

[00:45:44] Quirin: Yeah.

[00:45:46] Chris: And um, yeah, I look forward to chatting soon. Thanks mate.

[00:45:48] Quirin: No, thank you. [00:45:50] Thank you. It was great.

[00:45:50] Chris: If you have a question that you'd like us to answer in an upcoming q and a episode, you can send us a voicemail or written question via the website. The elephant in the [00:46:00] room.com au. Or you can email us directly at questions at the elephant in the room.com

[00:46:06] Speaker 7: au.

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