Welcome to Mindset, Mood and Movement, a systemic approach to human behavior, performance, and well being. Our psychological, emotional, and physical health are all connected, and my guests and I endeavor to share knowledge, strategies, and tools for you to enrich your life and work. Hello and welcome. I am delighted to be joined by my guest, Michelle Flynn. And Michelle and I are going to be talking today about what makes a positive life. Michelle, like me, has a multitude of skill sets, where she comes at human performance and human behavior. And we're going to tuck into those. But if you're wondering how to have a positive life, and perhaps like me, you might be digging in. what does that mean? What is the, what is the construct of a positive life? This is for you. So Michelle, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much, Niall. Thanks for having

It's great to have you here. Let's perhaps start with the most important point and define, perhaps for you, and I have my own definition, but for you, Michelle, what would you define as a positive life?

I know it's a very broad, broad topic. So for everyone, it is going to be individual. And for me personally, a positive life is about, Good habits for happiness and health, because for me, ultimately, if we're not happy or if we're not healthy, then nothing else really matters. And also everything else is impacted by that. So it's giving a starting point to bring focus to build habits that can be long term sustainable.

Really nice, beautifully put. My term of a positive life, it's funny because I have a bit of an existential, mind, so I, I integrate the negative and the positive together, so I, that's my own definition, but my interpretation would be that which is something which is always growing, something you can always move on and learn from, even if there are difficult parts, even if there are times when it's not easy or the health is not great, but it's always this evolution. That would be my term of a positive life, that it has this growth and this continuous movement forward. Now, I'm really interested to talk to you today about a couple of key areas. We cross over on some, but one, I have a personal understanding, but not a professional, and that's the area of food. Or, we could call it, biochemical nutrition, we can call it molecular structure that's imbued. There are many names for this domain and of course it's covered, isn't it, with emotions, it's covered with a lot of different perspectives. So perhaps you can share a little bit with us about how food, so your interpretation of food, perhaps how you work with it, how does that come in, how do you work with that to help a person have what we're looking at today as a positive and healthy life.

It's so key to it and there are so many different messages out there that we're being told all of the time that it can be very overwhelming. and sometimes it can feel quite, like we're put under pressure. There's a lot of, you should do this. And actually, it's about taking it back to the basics so people understand what food is. because there's a lot of things that we're eating that ultimately is not actually food. but why food is important to not just the obvious health benefits of eating sort of good food choices, but the wider aspect of how it can impact, yes, our physical health, but also our mental health. And often people don't draw the connection between the brain and the gut. And the more that we can understand the fact. that our gut really is our second brain, and in some cases can be even more powerful than our main brain, the more that we are then able to take control and as you stated about a positive life, continue to grow in a positive way.

Yeah, that's really nice. It's so interesting, isn't it? When we think about the misunderstandings and the interpretation, I'm so much on that and the work I do, but when we got the word food, it has lots of labels, both practical and emotional, some functional and some dysfunctional. That is really interesting what you said there. When you were mentioning about the second brain and the gut and the impact on mental health, it's, it's starting to become more known. I've had to look into this field for many years because I have an autoimmune condition and it is a gut based condition. It's multi layered. I'm happy to go into that as some some depth if it's useful today, but Really understanding that what's happening in the microbiome, that's all the bacteria of the gut, all the chemical stuff, which is of course fueled by the food we eat, whether that's whatever quality or whatever type that is the. in a way the fuel and the, and the pieces that make it. But it's so interesting, isn't it? When we think about that serotonin, I think isn't it some of the 80 percent of serotonin production is made in the gum, even though it's a neurotransmitter, which is connected to fulfillment and happiness. So we need to understand this relationship to food on a, I think a practical level. But how about getting to the basics? So someone's listening now and might be, let's say they're not so clued up on it and they just want to learn some more. Where's our start point? Where do you take us through with food and say, here's number one. This is what we're going to start to do. Would you take us through your steps? That'd be really helpful.

Yeah, I think for me, the key thing is to take away the overwhelm, to make it simple to understand and for people to have some key, I don't like the word rules, but we'll say rules that they stick by when they are out shopping or cooking or making food choices when they're out busy at work or out for dinner. So for me, it's about that real understanding between what is actually real food and what is ultimately junk. And we add the word junk next to food, but fundamentally, it's not really food. It's highly processed, full of chemicals and lots of other things that are not good for the gut. So by explaining what real food. actually is, which is whole food, real food that we would cook with ingredients that we would recognize a carrot, an onion, an apple, a chicken breast. It's, it doesn't just have to be fruit and vegetables. We have the whole spectrum, across real food. The difference between, for example, a chicken breast and a chicken nugget or an apple or a slice of apple pie. Understanding the, the difference so that someone is empowered to make the real change themselves because they understand what they're looking for when they're making their shopping list or in the supermarket, understanding what labels really mean so that they can make those smarter choices.

Yeah, I love that. It's so interesting, isn't it? We can go into a store and most stores are built around psychological impacts, by the way. So there's, this might be a bit of a deal breaker for you, but some stores are laid out in a way that has fruit and veg first. And there's some science that would suggest that if we buy the fruit and veg first, when we go to the middle of the shop with all the package goods are, we are more likely to buy those because we feel good about ourselves because we've done a Healthy Purchase. So be mindful shopping that these things are skewed against us. The modern world is actually skewed against us, isn't it? We go into stores, there's a ready meal. There's, boxes of stuff, there's packages. And really they're just chemistry sets. That's the way I look at them. They're sets of chemistry. They're put together in a chemical way as a lot of fast food joints are. not to name some big names, but they are chemistry, chemically made products. They are not food products. I think what you're saying is so powerful to really get the distinction between, is this a food? This is a food group, like a vegetable, a piece of meat, a fish, whatever the food group, or is it part of a process that's got the word in it? And that's such a nice delineation to think about as we, as we go forwards. Now I've looked into food. I mostly eat a plant based diet myself. I say mostly because I'm not rigid. Most of the time it's a plant based whole food diet. Occasionally I'll deviate and I'm all right with that because I have a sort of an overarching thing. But for someone who is struggling on perhaps they just don't like cooking, they just chuck a meal in the microwave, that kind of vibe. How do you help that person get from that mindset and behavior? To looking at the whole foods thinking about how they might cook something that's nutritious and good and going from that Let's say the quick and easy route to a more considered healthy route.

Yes, and it is difficult because we are all really busy and convenience food is called that for a reason because it is very convenient and if we look at what has gone on over the last few decades with the introduction of the microwave and the ready meal and delivery services, it has become really convenient to eat unhealthily and it is less convenient To, as you said, spend the time cooking a healthy meal. So when I first start working with someone, it's understanding why they actually want to make the change in the first place, because I can give someone all of the information, but if ultimately they don't want to make the change, they don't have a strong enough reason to make the change, then. They're probably not going to make it, or maybe I need to support them to work. As you mentioned earlier about it, emotions work with them as to what it is that stopping them want to make those positive changes. So that's got to be the key thing is that. If someone comes to me and wants to make a change, but really they're just not ready, then, it's probably not the right time for us to be focusing our attention on that particular change. Maybe we need to delve a bit deeper, using tools like cognitive behavioral therapy to understand. What they're thinking, because ultimately your thoughts create the feeling and the feeling creates the action. So if you're negative thinking, you're not going to feel great and you're probably not going to want to eat a sort of eat a salad. it's using different tools to get the person in the right position so that they feel, back in control and ready to make the changes they need.

we're sitting here thinking right? Okay. I want to make some changes I as we were similar in this way. I would look at a client I might help them with their own choices But food I'll hand over to another professional like you or I'll get them my clients to focus on themselves I think of James Clear's work, The Habit Specialist, and it's a really nice piece of work he did, he took it on from Charles Duhigg's work, but he came up with a, a powerful statement, and I think it's valid in psychology, which is find a compelling reason. If you don't have a compelling reason, you are not going to get up at 6am and go to the gym when it's dark. You're not going to put down the ready meal and think, I'll, I'll, I'll, Get a recipe and I'll cook for half an hour and I'll make some great food. You're just not going to go there unless the reason doesn't have enough compulsion enough energy and emotion in it And what I find really interesting is that our brain and most of us don't know this But our brain is wired for two two kind of key things. Number one is safety The whole brain system, every piece of structure is hardwired for us to stay safe. The other one is about managing energy and energy efficiency. So we will always take the easiest route. That's how we're clever. That's how humans have dominated the earth. That's also why we have weight gain because we're very good at storing energy. we're very good at efficient systems. The problem we have is that the modern world, and it seems the modern nutrition system goes absolutely against our human system. So we have to consciously change that. That's what I see and that's what I've had to do with my own nutritional choices. What are you seeing as a really great step that you might get someone who wants to find that compelling reason? how might you say, okay, let's let's go there. What would you do with them?

It is interesting because often if someone's coming to me wanting to change food, it might be related to weight loss. and a wedding or a holiday is a very good motivator for helping us keep on track. And diets are great for a very short period of time, but they do not work long term. they're great for that wedding day or getting into that outfit for the Christmas party. But it's about the longer term habits, as you mentioned, James Clear and, understanding that reason why. So it would be through questioning. If, if the answer is, I just want to fit into my clothes and them to be more comfortable, there's an easier solution then. changing how you eat and going to the gym, which is actually just buying the next size up of clothes. And I've been down that route. I have gone through those phases where I'm determined I will not go up the next size and then, oh, okay, I'm here. so it's really understanding more about that person, what their motivators are, why they've come to me in the first place, because they may think that it's weight loss, but actually. Through conversation and understanding them better, you realize that potentially they're having difficulties at work or they're struggling in their relationship or as a parent. so by understanding more about their life, which often starts with the question, just tell me about yourself. And people are often not given that time and space to just talk about themselves. So they then start to. And I start to question and, we get to the, the important stuff of what really matters. and often when it is about food, it may be looking at, a health concern either for themselves or a family member. It may be that they have become new parents and. They're now, have a new priority of sort of a child to look after and they want to be able to make sure that they are fit and healthy to do that. So it's definitely, everyone is different. So it's about really giving someone that space to reflect on their lives and dig deeper into what actually really matters.

Yeah. Such a great question is that the hierarchy, the hierarchal structures of the brain and the hierarchal structures of our beha beliefs and behaviors are, are that I've got clients who are so driven, they work really, really hard and they're often founders, or they might be freelancers, they're, you're really pushing hard and that. That goes up the chain of hierarchy. That's more important than their health. And it's amazing the amount of people, particularly midlifers. And I'm like, okay, so yeah, you're going to grow a successful business. Amazing. I'll support you on that journey. I'll do all the mindset performance work with you. But what happens in 10... or 20 years when you can't function because you failed to look after your body because you were too busy, right? You're working all the time. You're like, Oh, it doesn't matter. My business is more important. And I say to every one of my founders, okay, you are the business. If you lose your health, you lose everything you do. And I, it's an. It's the sacrosanct fact and any of us who've had a health condition, I have a chronic condition, which comes and goes and generally I'm in good shape because of all the practices that I do, but it can come and catch, catch me sometimes. I have a flare, what we call in, this, this condition, a flare up, and then you have to be really with your body. And for me, I feel a bit more gentle. I have to change my nutrition a bit. And it's so revealing when you have health taken away from you. And it's so powerful, like I've got to get it back. I've got to feel good. And what I worry about is when we get it back, we're like, Oh, let's just go back to what we know. So status quo bias, use a bit of psychology here. My, my work and what I love to get you to think of, let's think, how can we shake that wonderful mind of a person we might be working with about status quo bias and how we might come out of it?

Yeah. And I think it's interesting talking about you don't realize what you've got until it's gone is that that is what happened to me. That's why I retrained as a coach was that I was a very successful recruitment business owner. And one morning I woke up and had a severe pain in the left side of my chest, which felt like a heart attack. And it is very interesting. Thing that you say about, we have a health scare and then we forget that that happened. 'cause that's exactly what happened to me. I was rushed to hospital. Fortunately it wasn't a heart attack, so I decided to ignore the fact that I'd collapsed and been taken to hospital and for three years ignored that I was tired. I was gaining weight, I had digestive problems, I had memory problems. I was getting sick a lot. It, I was ticking all the boxes, for someone that really needed to stop and pay attention and it wasn't until I collapsed for a second time that I did that. So I completely agree with you that often we have to have gone through our own journey to realize that we really need to make a difference. And that's when people are then either speaking to a doctor or a nutritionist or a health coach or a therapist, whoever is the right person to support them.

Yeah. so important. And I'm sorry to hear that's happened, but I guess the difference When we have a crisis, and I say this a lot, I love etymology, I like to know where things come from, and the word crisis comes from Greek, krisis, which means to decide. So we have to be very careful, we use words incorrectly a lot. It doesn't mean catastrophe, it means decide. So if you have a health crisis, it's a decision point. It's such a key one that if you are clear in your mind enough, And you can get your hierarchical priorities a little clearer, I need to be well, I need to function as though I might have a business, or a family, or a partner. That has to come first, and you need to recalibrate your life, and recalibrate your thinking. Because thinking is a habit. The human brain works on habit structures, it works on repetition. It's a very elegant system, right up to the point that pattern, or habit, starts to become redundant. Such as, overwork, overstress, eat badly. Yeah, it might be sustainable for five years in your twenties, get to your thirties, you're going to have issues in forties, you're going to have a whole host of problems. So yes, it does need that waking up, doesn't it? And I too have met those points and I forget as well. So I forget when I'm really bulletproof healthy, I'm like, yeah, I'm super mad. I can do anything. And I might have a little issue. I'm like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm actually a vulnerable human being. Need to remember that and be kind to yourself and do the, do the appropriate things. Now I'd love to. Kind of segue this a little more into some spaces, which I know we both straddle, but that's the space of movement because if we are eating right, nutritious whole food, food that's made from a plant, not in a plant, as someone used to say, and our biochemistry is working well in the body, but we're not moving. It is a, it's a fundamental piece of the pie, isn't it? We need to do. So what are your thoughts on movement and how do you treat the movement part of your work?

I absolutely agree. It's been one of the biggest changes to my life. I was very sedentary in my sales career. a lot of times sat at a desk and, I didn't think about movement at all. And, I try it, you go to the gym for a bit and then the novelty would wear off until it was that point of. Realization that a, I need to start doing some, which probably was initially related to weight and what I look like, but very much is no longer about that. It's about exactly, as you said, the importance of it again, same with food, physical health, but also our mental health, one of the best ways. For someone to clear their head is to do whatever movement works for them. And when I'm working with people, for me, it's about them exercise. I prefer the word hobby. Let's find something that you really enjoy, preferably doing with people that you really even better if you're doing it outside. That it becomes a regular thing that isn't a chore in the diary. And for some people that is the gym. They love going to the gym. Brilliant. For other people, that's definitely not right for them. And they want to run out on the trails. So it's about finding what that is. And if people aren't sure, I'll often go back to childhood and say, what did you used to do for fun as a kid? And they'd say, Oh, I love to ride my bike. I had a skateboard. I used to, Oh, I loved horse riding, trampolining. Okay. Why can't you do that as an adult? Opening up the fact that it doesn't have to just be about the gym. There are many more options for this.

I love that. It's such a great one. And I was thinking, I, if you, if you ask me, I'd be like, I love to cycle. I used to love being on my bike as a kid. And as an adult now, I'm, over half a century. I've been on the planet a long time. I still love to cycle. Obviously I'm careful on the roads, but being on my bike is a very freeing experience. So it's so interesting that we dial back into that playfulness. And I wanted to speak to that. exercise is a word, again, terminology, interpretation, exercise is often seen as a dirty word, a word that's Oh, it's hard. You've quote, got to do it. And I'm like, okay, where do we get this idea from? This is just nonsense. Because most people I know work really, really hard, like really hard. Parents work really hard. So it's not that you're not good at hard work. Most people work way harder in their real life than they would at a gym. they graft. So I don't buy it for a second that people say it's hard work. It's different work. It might be physical work, but one of the things I find is we can attach joy to it and that playfulness, like you've alluded to, it's a really magical quality. I would say, so I'm going to tell a short story here. In my mid forties, I decided I needed to move a lot more. I'd been teaching yoga for a long time. And that's a, it's a good discipline, but it doesn't cover all what we need to cover in terms of movement and exercise and strength and cardiovascular. So I got involved in CrossFit and I was absolutely humiliated. I was pretty rubbish and I thought I'd be good. I was up against these athletes and a lot of female athletes and they were so strong. My ego was, thankfully I was able to check my ego that was wanting to feel the shame of being a weak man run out the door and I could stay with it. And thank goodness I did, because actually what I've learned is that sometimes to change who you are, your behaviours, you have to change your identity. And that takes a while. Going to the gym once, or yoga class, and you might say, I don't like it. Of course you don't like it. It's brand new. But if you go for three months... and start to build that in, find some of the joy, some of the payoff, and all that good feeling. That's what it's really about, and I, I do worry that we get the, get the idea wrong. So many of my female clients say, Oh, I want to lose weight. I say, Why? People carrying you around? seriously, what does that actually even mean? And we've got to challenge that. Yes, you might want better body composition, but I have found, with my work, with my client's work, and blending into the kind of the athlete side of things, how you feel. is everything. You said it at the top of our show, healthy and happy. And if you feel good, you feel strong, you feel confident. Those are all of those pieces that make our positive life. And that's a very powerful thing that comes from physical movement, all varying times. So I'm a, I do push it as a strong point that we have to give it, I think a bit more time, but I love the fact that you said there, find that joy. Cause that's the first link. and then that's I think when it starts to grow.

Absolutely. And I've, I try lots of new things when I'm coaching clients or when I'm doing a talk to a group of people and we're talking about movement and I'm like, tell me what you do. And partly I want to know what they do, but actually it's me wanting to know, give me some more ideas. And someone said paddle tennis. I'm like, Oh, what's that? I'm going to go and look up paddle tennis or boxing. Okay, where do you do that? Let me give that a try. And of course, I'm not going to like all of it and I'm not going to be good at all of it, but we have got so many different options. And one thing that COVID was really good for was people just getting back to walking and enjoying being outdoors. And lots of people bought dogs and continue to do all the dog walking. And that's just brilliant because. Just start somewhere is the most important thing and if that is dancing around your kitchen, having a kitchen disco with your teenagers or dancing to Peppa Pig with your toddler, it doesn't matter, it's all movement because the people that live the longest in the blue zones They're the five parts of the world where people live the longest. They're not at the gym. They're, they're walking, they're getting on a bike. They're, they're just moving in every day, which we've just stopped doing. And now we're having to find the time to exercise. Just bring it back into what your life is.

Yeah, that's such a good point. The blue zones are really interesting, aren't they? and you're, you're right. If you look at Blue Zones, they don't have gyms and stuff, but I think a Sardinia suddenly they're quite hilly and I've seen some of the footage of there and there are these older people, often centenarians, they carry bags of shopping up a pretty steep hill. Right? That's a functional movement. And if we are doing functional movements, day in day out because zone two, which is brisk walking zone five, which is going up the hill hard. Carrying stuff, lifting stuff, your body will adapt and your body will adapt if you sit on a soft sofa, our modern life, I think this is an important point, which I've learned more and more over the recent years, that our modern life has so many privileges, we can, we're on a call now in different places, using all this technology, it's amazing, it's so good and as a listener, you can get knowledge from people you might never be able to spend time with. But we might be in a chair for too long all day, and we might sit then after work and watch TV, something like that. We have to choose to counter that, and we have to remember that the brain, literally the brain, and the body is an adaptive system, and it will adapt to any conditions. So whatever environment we are in, whether it's an office with chairs, or whether it's a walking meeting that you're having with your, with your colleagues, your body will adapt. And there was there's so much data now about walking. I, I'm a big walker, I have dogs, and it's the first one. Everyone can walk, right? Unless you have a disability, of course, but if you don't have a disability, you can walk. It's just a go to. There are pressure sensors in our feet. They calibrate with the heart. They also do with, it's to do with motion. So when we travel forwards, our eyes are tracking left and right all the time, tracking left and right. We don't see it tracking. It's one way of processing difficult flight state responses or even trauma responses. So the forward movement of walking and running is even better, really helps process difficult stuff that's going on in our brain and our, in our sort of neurochemistry, all that stuff. So when we talk about exercise, we want to move away from, I think the weight gain and start to think about this positive, healthy, highly functioning system so we feel, and perform well.

But also I think that you can introduce it into your work. So if you are a team leader, don't do your one to ones, either on the screen or sat in the office together. Go out, go for a walk. I do all of my coaching, weather depending obviously. Either in person walking, often along Brighton seafront, or if it's that we're having a conversation on the phone, as I did this morning, the lady was out for a walk. I don't want to sit and stare at my screen for eight hours a day. No one does, and it's not good for us. So start to implement it. If you are working at home. Can you stand up? Can you move around? I know one gentleman, he gets 15, 000 steps in a day without even leaving his home because he takes his calls and he's standing up and he's moving around. trying to find ways to fit it in. But also, as you're saying, if you're having a difficult conversation. Whether this is with a friend, a family member, or someone you work with, then often being side by side and not staring at each other is a much more positive way to have that conversation and get to, we'll bring it again back to the positive outcome of it.

Yeah, absolutely. There's so many benefits. In fact, there's so many benefits we do not have time to talk about this now. But it's really just, okay, do your research. There's loads out there. There's some amazing books. But there is the fundamentals that if we move. I think my equation's like this, what I share to people. If we know we're an adaptive system from the brain and the body, and we adapt to the conditions we are in, Choose the conditions, which might look like I'll do a walk and talk, a walk in meeting, as you've alluded to, or I will go to a running club and start, catch 5k, whatever it is, but those conditions will change how my body and my brain and everything responds and there's so much connected to, so movement. A lot of it's working with the cerebellum, the small bit of the back of the brain, but there's found to be pathways connected to the frontal lobe, which is all about executive decisions and function. If you want to perform well, you want your brain sharp and you certainly want your brain sharp to stave off things like cognitive decline as you age. Movement is a fundamental piece. It's like a non negotiable piece of brain health and cognitive health. So when we think about our positive life... Movement is a non negotiable for me. How you do it is negotiable. And how you build it up, I think needs long term. And I say this to many of my clients, forget 12 weeks, just, just get so over that idea. Go for 12 years. And people are like, what? And I do say, you are going to be here in 12 years, right? How do you want to be in 12 years? And most people tell me they want to be even, stronger, I don't know, better performing, physically well in 12 years. the trajectory you want starts today. And it's far better to start with that long term vision because it's so sustainable because it's so long even if you fall off track a bit you come back on and I find it's a very powerful way. I wanted to sweep now into another area that you said that you specialize in it's sleep and my goodness you know we're going now the other way the pieces that pull this together perhaps you could say a little more around how you what you do with sleep and you work with sleep in your clients tell could you say more about that

I love sleep. That's right. It is literally the first place that I start with people, because if you are not sleeping properly, you will not make the right food choices. You will not want to move your body. You will not. Not have a good day at work. So explaining firstly, the importance of sleep, and it's not just about curing tiredness, it is connected to pretty much everything. So if you want to be happy and healthy, you need to be sleeping. And then looking at the things that are impacting that, and there are four key things that we need to focus on is, are we getting enough sleep? Are we sleeping in a regular sleep pattern? Because our bodies like routine. Do we have good quality of sleep? So are we getting that precious deep sleep? And are we sleeping consistently through the night? So when I'm working with people, I look at where maybe the issues are. They might be getting the lovely eight hours, but they still wake up tired, which is probably they're not getting the deep sleep. Or they might have no problem falling asleep. But they might wake up at that danger, danger zone, as I refer to at four o'clock in the morning and they can't get back to sleep. So we, it's like being a detective. What's the problem and then how do we solve it? And there are some obvious things that people are aware of. Caffeine obviously impacts sleep, but so does alcohol. So does when we. So does the darkness of our bedroom, how stressed we are. So giving people the tools to be able to adjust the choices that they're making or for them to understand the power of breathwork for sleep, which sleep and breathwork are the things that I just, are the superpowers. but people are not taught this and the more that I learn, the more that I just can't believe. Why we are not teaching these basics to, to everybody because we're giving people the tools to be back in control. And that starts with getting a good night's sleep because we all feel better when we wake up and we know we're fully rested.

Yeah, totally agreed. And it's so interesting. I have to always catch myself and I certainly speak to it to people I'm working with today started yesterday. So if you want to be performing well today or having really good quality time with your partner or playing with your Children or whatever it is, That experience, or the experience of today, started yesterday, and that looks like how you were breathing, how you were eating, what your stress levels were like, to how much tech you were using, etc, etc, right up to sleep, and then if that was disrupted, and I know, because I have, sadly, I have a lot of disrupted sleep, I have a dog who's not well now, and he gets very spooked, and he'll just wake me, and I'm a very light sleeper, so I have to do a lot of work to try and get it in, and it doesn't always work for me, it's, it's, it's one of my challenged areas, for sure, and I, I probably get the disruptive sleep, so I'm, I've got the quality, 10 o'clock every night or earlier, I'm Mr. Early. I get the rhythm. It's all there, but the disruption is one to work on and it's not easy. I, I'm like Michelle, we're, we're human beings. We, it's not, this isn't oh, it's all easy for us. This is, this is work, to, to eat well, to move well, to sleep well. And it needs constant tinkering, doesn't it? So what would you say? I'm going to put myself on the spot here. I'm going to say, Hey, I'm, I'm struggling with my consistency. I've told you about being woken up with the dog. What would you, what might you say would be some good strategies that I can think about?

Okay. So the first thing would be understanding what time you are waking up at. So is it the danger zone of four o'clock in the morning or is it before

Sometimes form. Okay.

Okay, so the reason that people tend to wake up around that time is that the brain is highly active at that time. We're filing our memories from the day. So I describe our brain like millions of little light bulbs, and we want them off to get good sleep. And often at four o'clock in the morning, it's like someone's turned the dimmer switch on and The brain is more active. So if you are stressed through work or anxious about what's happening the next day, you're much more likely to wake up at that point because your brain is already active in your situation, having a dog that's not very well, that's ultimately something that you can't control. And, you want to make sure that if your dog needs you, that. Obviously you're going to be there for them, but looking at the things that you can control. One of the things to help people sleep the whole way through the night is getting into a deeper sleep at the beginning of the night. So when someone is preparing, they've done their teeth, they've got into bed, they've put the phone away and they're now right. Now it's time to sleep is to do some nice breathing patterns, and there are lots of different breathing patterns out there. Box breathing is the one that I generally start with when we're talking about sleep, which is breathing in for a count of four, holding your breath in for a count of four, out for a count of four, holding it out for a count of four, All through the nose. Nasal breathing is key and if someone is breathing through their mouth when they're sleeping, then that creates a whole different array of challenges, which again can be solved. So by doing the breathing exercises whilst you're going to sleep, you're going to drop into a deeper state of sleep more quickly. So therefore when you come up into those lighter phases, which you will, that's how sleep works. We range throughout the night through different cycles. But because you start at a deeper point, you're less likely to then wake up in those lighter phases. So that would be certainly somewhere that, to be honest, getting people to breathe properly with sleep, whether someone is a good sleeper or not, is always a great way to sleep because. Stress is often the thing that is stopping us getting a good sleep because of highly active brain, but also what it does to our nervous system. So doing those breathing patterns would be a starting point. as well as you're obviously already looking at probably the obvious things. Is your room cool enough? Is it dark enough? Is it quiet enough? And people can spend a lot of money on sleep technology. There's amazing devices now where the do, The mattress topper will change temperature as your body temperature changes. And for women going through menopause, our body temperatures are changing. So there's a lot of devices out there, but they don't come cheaply, but breath work is free. I would definitely start with that.

yeah, absolutely. I believe you. So I train with Patrick McKeown, I think you and partner have, yeah, okay. and Patrick McKeown, for those of you who don't know, does the Oxygen Advantage. And Patrick's work is based on, Pateko system. really interesting work. And Patrick suggests that we tape our mouths. mouth taping is something I've... done. And I do it on and off. It's curious. I go for periods where I take for a while and then I don't need it for a while. It's really interesting, isn't it, that if we're mouth breathing all night, which is predicated towards more of a sympathetic nervous system response, like a higher stimulated response, but we may not know because we're asleep. So taping the mouth is a good one. Now, for anyone who's horrified by the idea, it can sound a bit weird. So you can go on Patrick's website, have a look, Google it. We can put some links on the show notes. It is one strategy that does work quite well for people and it has worked for me when I've used it and when I feel I need to use it, I think it's interesting. So I know Patrick, when I did some training with him, he said, if you're dysregulated in your breathing through the day, that's also going to go all the way into the night. So not just before bed, which is why practically like both of us, of course, we'll always say, let's check in with, how do you breathe? All, all the time. So there's strategies and practice, but it's a bit like going to the gym, isn't it, Michelle? You can go and do weights or run once a week, but if you're sitting for 12 hours a day, it won't negate him. And the same with if you have dysfunctional breathing all day and you do a small practice, it's probably not quite enough. So looking at breath work. In general, nasal breathing in general, diaphragm breathing throughout the day, regulated breathing is such a powerful strategy that so many of us overlook, but I know I push it all the time because it works and it's powerful.

Yes. And with that, if people are unsure, because as you said, you're asleep, you don't know what you're doing. My question is, do you snore? Do you wake up with a dry mouth? And lots of people do. And as soon as you put that connection, they realize, Oh, okay, I am mouth breathing and during the day, people who are in jobs that involve a lot of talking, so salespeople, whether that's company CEOs delivering their messages, whether that's teachers, customer service. When they're talking all day, they're mouth breathing. So again, this is giving people the awareness that if you're breathing through your mouth, you are activating your stress nervous system. So therefore you are going to be more stressed, which is then going to be connected to sleep and other aspects of your

Yeah. Such, such important points. So hopefully as we're thinking about our, our constituent pieces of a positive life, we've got all of these pieces coming together. It's a tapestry, isn't it? It's this kind of collage and tapestry that sometimes needs a bit of more in one area, a bit more in the other, but there is no, In my experience, there's no way that one should negate all of, one in total, like I'll forget about breathing because I do lots of exercise or I do lots of breath work so I don't need to eat well. It's no, no, no, no, no, the human system is multilayered and it needs a multiple approach. And of course, this is my, my, my passion for the podcast is to share it like our multiple practitioning approaches we've got here. That when we think and connect this way, we start to move away from what sadly is a cultural label. belief that things work in isolation. You go see the breathing person for the breath issue. And you go see the sleep person. It's like, why? Humans are systems. We are systems. It's just basic fact. And if we don't treat things as systems, they don't work that well. So if we start to see how they're interacting with each other, we get a much better, better connection. And talking of connection, I know that's something that you speak of quite a lot in your work. It's certainly about how to have a positive and healthy life. What's, what's your definition of connection?

It's not about connecting with people that you love, which is, I think, where I was going to go first, but actually connecting with people that you have shared values with. So whether that is through sports, maybe you play football and you get on well with your teammates, whether this is going to a book club, whether it's your yoga class, whether this is. That your work, your workmates. And one of the hard things now about more people working at home is less connection. And we all felt it during COVID when suddenly we weren't able to spend time with the people that we enjoy, their company and doing the things that we love, how much that had an impact on us. So it is. So key, loneliness is one of the biggest causes of depression and more and more people are feeling it in my coaching sessions. Regularly, people are telling me I have no one to talk to and even I have no friends. They might be new to an area. I moved to a new area 18 months ago. I didn't know anybody. I was thinking this is not going to be good. I'm a very sociable person. I get my energy from being around people. So I knew I had. To do something about that and take responsibility myself for making those changes. 'cause I don't have children, so I don't have the school gates to meet people. I do not think we can underestimate the importance of it. And there's even suggestions that. It can have as much of an impact on your health as smoking. And, particularly I think with men where they don't necessarily talk, they might go to the pub, they might talk about football. I experienced that the other night at a dinner party where about half past nine, the talk went to Brighton and Hove Albion. Absolutely great. It was giving men a. a conversation to share with each other, which was lovely. But maybe women are talking more about how they're actually feeling. So I just actively encourage people to find your people. And that just one person, it doesn't have to be hundreds. There's only so many really good close relationships that we can actually invest time in, but don't underestimate it. And if you're listening to this and you're feeling lonely. Look at what's out there. Eventbrite is a great place to go and connect with people over shared interests. There's a group called Run Talk Run, which is, a group that I joined when I first moved to Brighton and I didn't know anybody. And it's, it's not really a running group. We do run, but it's very slow. it's. It's basically about breakfast at the end, but I made some great friends, people I would never have got to meet through that. use what is out there to go and connect, particularly if you are working at home on your own, because we're not getting so much connection as we would through work. so we have to be finding those ways outside of that.

Thank you. Yeah, that's just such as such so many important points. I had some other guests recently, Leanne Weaver, who was on a recent podcast. So guys, if you listen, you can search for Leanne's. It's about the importance of connection in the workplace. And Leanne has spent a lot of time in the world, like many of us and seeing human connection, seeing the change from the pandemic, the negatives and the positive and a connection being absolutely fundamental in the workplace. And, another guest, April Baker, who runs, Together Co, which is a loneliness charity. There's a Episode out about now or around this episode. and it's all about loneliness and she speaks about social health. so important and, and most of us know, we don't need psychologists to tell us this, but when we haven't got any mates, it's horrible. And it really is. And I remember that at school. If, when I've changed schools as an adult, I've changed many different places I've lived. It is tough. I think it's harder as an adult to make new friends than it is as a younger person. That's my personal experience, but there are ways to do this, and I think we're going back to this same premise we've spoken about already. Modernity, the modern world, social structures as, as they are, they don't make it easy for us to, to be as functioning and well as we could be. So we have to be quite savvy and skillful and go, Hmm, I feel quite lonely. I haven't got anyone I've moved. Let's go on, meet up or let's go on a certain places, Eventbrite, to find where we have to have the volition to go for it. And I know that's not easy for if you're listening, you're like, Oh, this is so much energy and effort. I get it. It really is. But if you look at the payoff, what would happen if you did meet a really cool person? Like you met Michelle and she's great fun and she's really clever and she's just great at the run club. Or you, you spent time with me and oh, he's a cool guy that might be so worth the effort. And I, I know how I, my, my brain works because that's what I work with. It's I'll take the easy option. Yeah, I could do that. But that won't give me what I want. So I have to find ways to nudge out of that comfort zone. They think it's, I think, seven percent, the psychologists who bothered to study this, it's about seven percent out of our comfort zone we should be to grow. Put it this way, it's, I feel slightly uncomfortable but safe, would be my metric. If you feel slightly uncomfortable but safe, go do it. And yes, absolute connection. In a modern world of... Images, Instagram, and all the, the, the various, platforms. It can seem like everyone's mates with everyone. And yeah, I think you made such an important point. Even if you've just got one good contact, whoever that is, that might be enough if you're having a period of loneliness to keep that healthy social connection going.

I saw it myself. I decided to set up a women's group. I moved to Shoreham by sea, didn't know anyone, as I said, and decided to set up a women's group and I put something on Facebook and that was now about 15 months ago. I now have nearly a thousand members.

Amazing.

we meet once a month and, off the back of that, there's lots of other things that go on and it's just lovely. It's all age ranges, everyone from all different backgrounds, it's hosted for free, it doesn't cost you anything to come. If you... Wanna sit and drink a glass of water, no problem. we don't want there to be any blockers, and it is lovely. And now when I walk through showroom, it takes me twice as long to get through it because I'm always seeing someone that I recognize and even just that interaction with someone in the street is enough to charge my battery for the rest of the day. if you are sitting here thinking that. You're different because you feel lonely. You're not. My, my, what started as an experiment very much has proven that, that nearly a thousand women, have come forward. And my husband has now set up a men's group in Shoreham, exactly the same reason. Look, there is a lot happening out there and if you can't find anything, be the person to start it because you're not the only one thinking it.

I'm just so touched by that, that sentiment and it's, it's just so good to hear what you've done. So if we are that person, you're like, can't, I can't, I can't meet people. This is a real struggle and I find it tough. What can you take us through that, that, that process in your mind that went from, I'm feeling lonely and I'm in a new place and I'm going to do something about it. Could you take us through how that process worked for you? So maybe we could, embody that and take that forward.

So I remember exactly what happened. I was walking and I was listening to a podcast, fairly standard, and I can't remember who it was, but the guy on the podcast was talking about a men's group that had got him through COVID. And the connection with these gentlemen had been his saving. And I just thought, hang on a minute. Maybe I should start a women's group. So I went on to one of the main Shoreham Facebook groups and I put a post out that said, I'm new to Shoreham. I've been listening to this podcast about men's groups, and I think I might set up a women's group. Is anyone interested? And it went from there suddenly in the comments. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Then I realized, Oh, now what? So I thought. I'm going to set up a Facebook group, Shoreham by Sea Women's Group, very inventive name, and let's see what happens. And they just started joining. And then I was like, now what? So I put a post out and I said, Monday, the whatever date in July last year it was, I'm going to be in the garden of this pub in Shoreham at 6. 30. Anyone wants to come? 25 women turned up. Makes me quite

Oh, I love it.

Oh goodness. It was just like unbelievable and we all shared our stories and it just grew from there and every time there's always new people that come and I've seen this one lovely group of women become really good friends. They're all women. probably mid fifties to mid sixties, mostly single and, watching the fun that they now have together and the things that they go and do just is so heartwarming. And the whole acts of kindness being one of the best ways to make us feel happy, I feel so happy with the fact that I've managed to help other people that almost it's a selfish act on my part because I'm doing it because it makes me feel good. It's just been brilliant. So it wasn't that difficult. It just took putting a post out there and seeing what happened. And they came and they keep coming and they keep telling other people saying we do breathwork on the beach on a Saturday morning and we'll get up to 90 people joining us on the beach. And again, it's word of mouth. It's people wanting to be part of something and it is just wonderful. So it's not difficult to do. Use the technology. I know we shouldn't spend too much time on social media. But let's use it for what it's good for, which is connecting people and finding your

Really nice, such a, such a powerful story. I was really charmed by that. And what I heard as well was in some ways it was quite simple, wasn't it? There was a strong feeling. There was like, why not I, why not us? And, and let's, let's go for the first step. And what I heard was let's, let's just put it, let's just get a test in. And then the next step, the next step. So if, it's very easy to get overwhelmed with this idea, Oh, I've got to do all this thing. what about just put a post? Does anyone want to meet up for a walk? start a bit of a walking club. I like walking. And, and if three people come, great. Such an inspiring story. Thank you for sharing that, Michelle. And, for those of us around the Brighton Shore area, we need to go find Michelle's group. This sounds cool. Obviously, I can't go, because I'm a bloke. You'll have to come to your husband's group. Ha, ha, ha.

Come to the men's group or to the breathwork on the

Amazing. Sounds good. I would like to bring this, this episode, cause we've really focused on some really important parts. We've spoke about food, movement, sleep, connection, and I know you speak about relaxation as one of your final kind of key pillars of what you do. And we're coming to the end of our, our episode now. It feels the right way to close. what do you mean by relaxation and how might we do it well?

This is the one thing I'm still working on for myself because my coach is always telling me off for the fact that I don't ever stand still and what I think is relaxing, she doesn't agree with me. for it again, like movement, it can be different for different people. for some people it is lying on the sofa and watching Netflix and no problem with that at all. As long as that's not. You not sleeping or you not moving, or it's not interrupting the other things that are gonna help you live a more positive life. for some people that might be taking a gentle walk, I love to walk barefoot on, on the grass. for me, I find that really relaxing. We don't get into a flow. Anymore really, we're so busy. Our attention is constantly being grabbed by, adverts or sort of brands wanting our hard, our hard earned cash. so sometimes just finding ways to get into that flow state and reading. is a really good way to do that and we so often don't read books anymore. I have a, an array of books in my house that I'm still trying to get through. so it is different for some people. It will be a massage for some people, a nice yin yoga class, for someone else, a nice bath, but I guess we could call it self care. And if we're not looking after ourselves, we can't be strong for anyone else. And you mentioned this at the beginning with coaching high performers that are running businesses and it's all about the business, but if you're not well, and if you're not caring about yourself with whatever that might be that you find restful. It might be a really nice conversation with your best friend that you haven't spoken to for a while. there's lots of different parts and I ask people to create a calm list. So I say, I want 10 things on that list because if you feel stressed and you want to feel calm, you need to know what is going to make you feel that way. So what is on that list? And it can be a herbal tea, a scented candle, cuddling a dog. Listening to the sound of the waves, I often, that's my morning as I love to go and listen to the sort of the waves on the beach. So find your thing, but make sure that you are doing something for you every day, preferably without the phone. 15 minutes can recharge that battery to give you the energy to go and be good at everything else that your day needs you to

Yeah, such, such good points. Downregulation is a technical term we might use for him and we have to downregulate. And in a world of hyper stimulation, certainly if you are running a business, running a family, running a life, there are so many things to do. There are so many stimulus points which trigger, the brain, our visual system, dopamine system. We are, we're charged a lot. Two, if you don't downregulate, you actually change the baseline of your stress levels. So you actually raise that baseline. So you're constantly on. Wired is a term some people use, and I think some of us will recognize that term. equals more upregulation. So in sports science and the strength and conditioning world, which I also straddle, if you want to be physically strong or physically well, you have to downregulate properly. So you, if you do your strength work, for instance, and you're really training your physical systems to become a stronger physical person. If you don't downregulate with breath work directly after your training practice and proper sleep and proper downregulation, you don't grow new tissue, new mitochondria, new physical parts that you need to be. upregulated and strong. So I think if we misunderstand the value of downregulation, we can think, Oh, it's, I'm so busy. And by the way, if you say I'm busy, I'm coming for you. I get it. We've all got a lot to do. And I'm too. I've got lots and lots of things I like to do. I have my business and it's brilliant fun. And sometimes it can be a challenge because it's quite overwhelming. There are many things to do. Modern life, right? But be very careful of the narrative of, I'm so busy, because that can be a mantra that means, I can't relax, it's not okay to downregulate, I don't give myself permission. And that's one thing I would say in my experience, give yourself permission. Know that you need to downregulate, and know that that busyness can be turned down.

Yeah, there's a great quote. Arnold Schwarzenegger has written a book called Be Useful and he's talking about time and I won't quote him exactly because he uses a bit of language, but the basics of what he's saying is that we're all busy. But we all have time. And if you were to write one page every day for 365 days, you've written a book. so we are really busy and life has never been busier than it is, but this is about the priorities of how we spend our time and two minutes of breathing exercises. Can make a difference. Eating one extra vegetable can make a difference. Having one extra glass of water, having a cuddle with your child, or your partner or your friend, whatever it is, it's the small things that all add up. And. It's not about running marathons or about going vegan. If you want to run marathons and you're a vegan, great. Absolutely. They take such dedication. Let's just start with the simple stuff. It's a few more steps, a few more minutes of sleep, a little bit less time on the phone because, again, this is around the James hit, James Clear and building habits is that sort of, he says. Start with something that you can do even on your most difficult day.

Amazing.

I think that's a good

I love that. We are going to pull it to a close here, so we hope you can go and downregulate. Take some time. and I always encourage my listeners, so if you've taken points on this and you are someone like me, you have to write it down, Scrabble back, go find the marker on the what what did you, what did you wanna hear? What did Michelle say? What did, what did I say? What was what struck you? Capture it, integrate it, implement it. Because to be well and healthy and happy, and have a positive life, it takes a little action. continuous steps every day. So I hope you are able to take that forward. Dear listener, thank you. Absorb, take it to the next one. Michelle, thank you for your time and knowledge and I'll speak to you all again. Take care.

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe and if a friend would benefit from hearing this, do send it on to them as well. If you would like to get in touch yourself, then you can go to my website, which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com. Hit the get in touch link and there you can send me a direct message. If you'd like to go one step further and learn whether coaching could help you overcome a challenge or a block in your life, then do reach out and I offer a call where we can discuss how this may be able to help you. Until the next time, take care.