Zahir 0:00

The things that were very easy to talk about was, you know, we're having arguments, you know, the marriage is working, et cetera, et cetera. But there was one sentence that just refused to come out. And that sentence was, there's violence in this marriage, and I've been on the receiving end of it.

Alex Melia 0:16

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface.

I'm Alex Amelia. Join me, as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

A lot of men find it difficult to ask for help. That becomes even harder when what we've been through, is still really taboo 10 years ago, so he was working for the foreign office in Bangladesh. On the surface, he had the perfect life. Great job, beautiful apartment. He even had his own driver. So here had just gotten married to a woman that were going to call Sarah. They were young and in love. But it just goes to show, you don't always know what goes on behind closed doors.

Zahir 1:06

The truth is, we were both miserable. We were arguing quite regularly, we were in our apartment. It was in the living room. We'd furnished it ourselves. We had, you know, our favorite pieces of artwork up on the walls, and it was all very cozy if you'd come in uniform. Wow, this is a very happy place. What started out as a regular sort of argument, it escalated and at some point during the the argument, I came out and said look things things carry on this way, you know, this isn't good for either one of us, we've got to talk about ending this marriage. A reaction to that was to, to look at me, and then to stand up, come to me, and pushed me and pinned me up against the wall. She then put her hands around my neck and looked deep into my eyes and said, If you ever think about leaving this marriage, my father will come and he will have you murdered. Don't even think about it. I'm standing up against this wall. I'm frozen, my breathing is heavy. And I just want the ground to swallow me up. I'm pinned up against the wall by someone who's you know, 3040 kilograms lighter than I am. She's very petite. But I might as well have been pinned up by someone you know, who was a six foot five rugby player. I was absolutely petrified. I didn't react. She then turned around, stormed off, walked out to the door, slammed the door behind her. For the next hour, I stayed where I was I was frozen where I was against the wall. I gradually sat down and curled up as a ball. I wasn't crying. I was just sitting there. When I did then compose myself an hour later, I think I got up and went back to back to my life and just pretended this whole thing hadn't happened.

Alex Melia 3:07

So it wasn't even in your mind at all. You'd literally just raised it.

Zahir 3:10

Yeah, very much with it. You know, within an hour of it. I pretended the whole thing hadn't happened and just went back to normal life.

Alex Melia 3:17

And you didn't think about it at all? No,

Zahir 3:19

I think it was it was my way of dealing with it. It's not something I felt able to talk about. It's not something I knew how to process. And the best way to get through that is to pretend it never happened.

Alex Melia 3:36

Tell me about the next interaction you had with Sarah.

Zahir 3:39

So she came back a few hours later, and she'd gone off at this point. Again, it was in my head it was it was as if the whole thing hadn't happened. And so she came in it was completely normal interactions you walked in to the door. And I didn't talk to her about it. At some point that evening, we had to interact, possibly about having dinner. And when we did, we sat down and just had dinner as if we normally would. We weren't at that point pretending that everything else was okay. I mean, we were sat in silence having the dinner but certainly neat. Neither one of us addressed what had happened and sort of came in and got some food and sat down and I did the same and we sat and had a meal together. So and then, you know we got some space after that. And she traveled back to see her parents for a while. But it's something which at the time, I didn't really process it. I didn't ask anyone for help. I didn't tell anyone this has happened. For me. There was a lot of shame around it. It was almost as if it was a sign of weakness for me that I allowed something like this to happen to me. Four or five years later, I'm still married to Sarah, and, you know, a lot of these deeper issues that we were having hadn't been done. With by this time we've moved countries again. So the nature of the work is you spend three years in a country and then move on to the next one. So by now we're in Egypt. And again, beautiful backdrop, you know, you've got pyramids in the background, great apartment that we're living in. And we would have a son, and my daughter just been born as well. So she was born in Cairo. And I think, you know, in the interim time that the relationship hadn't got any better. I mean, kids are a great way to distract parents from from their problems. And so we got on with raising our son, which, you know, we both did a very good job at and worked very well together on that. But the zipper issues were still there. And they'd be sort of regular arguments in the meantime. So when my my daughter was born, Sarah went and spent some time with her parents so that she could get some rest and some some help with, with my daughter as well. And I had, I had a month where she wasn't there, and the kids weren't there. And it was in this time when I realized that there's something wrong here. And I realized that I wasn't happy, deep down, and that I hadn't been for a long time. And that's when I reached out to a therapist. And I remember the first conversation with him where he said, Look, what's the problem here, and the words just wouldn't come out. The things that were very easy to talk about was, you know, we're having arguments, you know, the marriages, working, et cetera, et cetera. But there was one sentence that just refused to come out. And that sentence was, there's violence in this marriage, and I've been on the receiving end of it. And I remember, it must have been 40 minutes into that conversation, I thought, Look, I've got to see this, this is relevant. And this is something which was bothering me. And for five or six years, I've not talked about it. And yeah, it was, it felt like a huge obstacle for me to actually come out and say those words. And when I did, I then spent a great deal of time just talking about largely, that incident, but then, you know, things around the marriage. But it was it was the first time that I'd confronted what had happened, but also asked

Alex Melia 7:16

someone to help. How did you feel when you said those words?

Zahir 7:19

Oh, it was hard. I felt I felt ashamed. I felt like, I almost felt like I wasn't a man. by admitting that one by allowing this had happened. And then to admitting it to someone, I felt weak. For me, it was, you know, I've always taken pride in being strong and composed. Whereas to actually come out and say that, for me was was almost admitting defeat, it was admitting a weakness, it was admitting that I needed help. And the idea that I would need help it was it was alien to me.

Alex Melia 7:58

Can you mention kind of what are the forms of violence were there in the relationship after the first incident happened?

Zahir 8:04

So in terms of physical violence, this, this was the only one. Now, you know, that there were lots of other sort of dysfunctions in in the marriage, we had very different tolerances to conflict, which is something we learnt, through marriage counseling, which we we tried before, find the ending of the marriage. And I guess this is where our backgrounds make a difference, and quite relevant. As a child, I witnessed domestic violence. My reaction to that was to say, I will never do this. But alongside that, what happened was I built a very low tolerance to any form of conflict. Whereas I think with with her background, you know, it's a very different culture that she came from. And, you know, it was people are much more open and outspoken and, you know, people raise their voices, and all of that's completely normal. And, you know, so we get into a lot of arguments. And, you know, this incident wasn't something isolated in the sense that it's the only time that happened in in my marriage, but a triggered lots of sort of bad memories from from the past for me.

Alex Melia 9:16

Thanks. Thanks for sharing that as well. How did you feel about showing that? No, it's

Zahir 9:19

hard. I don't talk about this very much.

Alex Melia 9:22

She ever apologized for for that incident happening? No, she hadn't. She'd ever mentioned it.

Zahir 9:28

Now. She never has edited to this day. She hasn't.

Alex Melia 9:32

How was the rest of the conversation with the counselor?

Zahir 9:34

No, it was great. And, you know, we unpack the marriage, we unpacked what wasn't working. It was those conversations that then led me to ending ending the marriage. I remember one, one phrase and this is fast forwarding a couple of years again, after I first shared this with him. I think we spent more time talking about the marriage rather than the incident. But But at one point a couple of years later, when we were talking in the midst of a conversation he he threw out there. He said, Oh, I think for me, when I talk about this thing, I still refer to the incident. Whereas for him, he threw out the phrase, you were assaulted. And I refuse to accept it. I, I went quiet when he said that, and I thought, No, I wasn't. And he said, Yes, you were. And I said, No, it wasn't, it was just something happened. It was, you know, as describe it, how you want I was pinned against or whatever. He said, No, you were assaulted. And I refuse to accept that. And it took me a good 10 minutes after that phrase, I heard that phrase to actually mentally accept it myself and say, Okay, that's actually what happened.

Why is it you felt that you couldn't accept that word?

I think it's because it's admitting what had happened. I mean, my, my way of dealing with something like this is to just pretend it didn't happen. I think for me, being strong, being composed, being useful to others, you know, these are dominant themes. In my life, I mean, that the nature of the work that I do is, you know, it's all about helping other people, it's doing good. And this idea that, actually, I need help, that something bad happened to me, was something I couldn't accept.

Because you created this image in your mind. And you were this person, you're this strong man, as you said, composed, you can deal with anything. So that was almost like someone had found a chink in the armor.

Yeah, it was admitting that, you know, I'm not made of Teflon. It was admitting to have accepted what had happened would have been to admit that there's weakness. And that's not something I wanted to do.

Why do you think we have this image that we have to be strong at all times? We have to be this dominant man, even though perhaps we're not at times?

Yeah, it's a great question. I don't know if I, if I have any good answers to that. I think for me, it's, you know, in, in relationships, you know, we we slot into roles very easily. And you know, sometimes it comes from society, but you know, something that in my relationships, people have have valued and appreciated as, you know, I offer strength, I offer stability, you know, my, my very first girlfriend would say, what, what, what she liked about me was that, you know, I was this rock that could be relied on. And so I think, for me, on a personal level, it was, it's a role they play very easily, I play it very naturally. But I'm sure there's all sorts of conditioning that that got me to that point.

So many men deal with trauma in many different ways. And I was almost putting myself in your shoes, as I do with a lot of people who come on and talk about their stories, thinking about how would I have dealt with that situation? For me, I just wouldn't be able to erase it from my mind that it'd be on my mind, constantly all the time. Even though that was a really difficult situation you went through that I'm almost impressed that you could literally just forget about it and just move on, because I don't think I could. But then like I said, Everyone deals with things differently. Don't know.

Yeah, I mean, it wasn't the best way to deal with that situation. You know, if you don't confront things head on, if you don't ask for help, then, you know, these things don't disappear. They just bury themselves. And they they will come out at some point. That's what happened to me this summer, where, you know, 1012 years after the incident out of nowhere, it came out again.

So when did this come out? Again, you said 1012 years later? What situation were you in? And how did you feel at the time because I've had situations where I've had a traumatic situation happen, and it comes out when you least expect it. And it's a shock to the system. And it's almost like this loss of breath, the sort of panic attack that I usually experience, but how was it for you?

Yeah, so it happened this summer. So you know, by this time, I'm now divorced. The kids are growing up. They're seven and nine years old, very happy kids. I'm now on you know, very good terms with with Sarah, who is now now my ex wife for divorce was amicable. Everything got resolved very, very quickly. And you know, I'm in a great place. It's, I'm happy in life, thoroughly enjoying my work, very satisfying. I've got a great group of friends. And out of nowhere, one Friday morning, I woke up, I'm in my apartment. And I'm just feeling overwhelmed, but I can't explain it. There's nothing that's happened that should trigger it, you know? And, generally, I mean, this doesn't happen very often when I'm feeling overwhelmed, but when it does Walking helps me. So went for a walk. I'm lucky in where I live, I'm next to Paddington. So there's a great Canal, which I often walk by, I'll often stand outside the train station. And so I thought, Okay, let's go for a walk, whatever this is, it will pass. As I went out, it got, it got heavier, it got it got deeper, and I'm being overwhelmed, suddenly started showing physical symptoms. So now I'm short of breath and deep breathing, as you say, heavier. And then the tears start, and I cannot explain this, I can't explain where these tears are coming from. And I'm standing outside the station, just crying, but trying not to try not to let people see that his this, this man was standing outside the station on a Friday morning, just crying, but I couldn't stop it, I couldn't help it. And then the flashback started. And the flashbacks were real. It wasn't a memory, it was as if I was transported back 12 years to this place. And I am there in that living room again. And I've got someone and I can see her face, standing in front of me, with her hands around my neck. And again, I'm frozen, and I'm powerless, and there is nothing I can do about it. And that became the reality. That's where I was I was reliving this it took me a few moments to recognize that I'm not actually reliving this, but I you know, I am where I am. And I thought okay, let's go back to, to the apartment. And so I went back to the apartment, all the other symptoms are still there, I'm still you know, I can't stop the crying, the breathing. Even the flashbacks, they're still they're still happening. But at least I know how to make my way back and I went to the apartment, I climbed into bed and I curled up, and I must have stayed like that for for two hours before it calmed down. And I made any sense of, of what was going on?

And how did you deal with the aftermath later on after those two hours.

So you know, this, this is a great contrast to how I dealt with things, when when it first happened, which was you know, but by now I've learned you've got to address these things. And so I sent two messages straight away to people I trust seeing look, I'm not okay, there's a problem here. And what one is the same counselor that I have been working with. And the other is a very good friend of mine, Christina, who has been a source of, of huge strength and support to me, generally. And you know, both of them were fantastic. My counselor said, look, there's a problem here, we need to get this dealt with, you know, I'll clear my diary. Let's, let's address it head on. And in the meantime, Christina said, Look, whatever you need, I am here, here for you. And is something which, which I appreciated it. So the big difference this time was was just accepting straightaway. I am not okay, there is a problem here. And I need help. And I'm going to ask for and that does not diminish me in any way. If anything, it it sort of shows strength to be able to do that. For me that there's there's something about vulnerability. There's less judgement, there's, there's more acceptance with with certainly, my female friends in general. And yeah, the great thing with Christina was, I did not have to hold back anything, whatever was going on, was okay, and was accepted. It was just look, whatever it is, it's happening. You come you sit down and I'm here for you.

It's a massive thing, isn't it? When you when you unload all of this to a friend and you just feel this? This sort of thank god, I've told someone else. Thank God, it's not all on my shoulders.

Yeah, there is and you know, it's about it's about vulnerability. It's just accepting. Look, you're not okay, you need to ask for help. And if you do it is there. I think you know, maybe one of one of my fears in the past may have been look, okay, it's a sign of weakness to ask for help. But also, what if you ask for it, and it's not there, you know, what do you do then? But in what had happened to me, this summer, I could not have asked for more in the sense that I reached out, I said, I'm not okay, I asked for help. And it was just accepted. And there's, you know, there were two people who were there for me, unconditionally. For me, the key to it has been acceptance. It's, it's rare to find people who are willing to accept you as you are, no matter what's going on. And it's almost if if you can have that then other things fall into place very, very quickly. My natural personality has not changed. You know, I'm still someone who likes to be in control. You know, I'm still the, you know, a strong person where, you know, I figure things out on my own, but when I can't be like that. All I need from someone is that acceptance. And if I have that, then I will figure things out by myself. And so you know, it's one of those things where it wasn't that I needed advice. I didn't need solutions. I just needed someone to be there for me

1012 years ago, when you were in this marriage, and this assault happened, did you have those people that you could turn to those friendship groups?

Yeah. So it's a great question, because actually, I did. But what's interesting is that I didn't make use of them. When I look back, now, I can go into three or four people who would have done exactly then what Christina did for me now. I never made use of that.

Sometimes I find as well, when you speak things out, you almost come up with your own conclusions, where you just kind of keep these thoughts kind of going around in your mind. You don't learn the same way. So I feel like just speaking out is massive, isn't it?

Yeah, that's right. And I do find that, generally speaking, the answers are there. I mean, occasionally, there is a time when what you need is professional help. And I think that, I'm very glad that I also had my counselor who knows how to deal with trauma. And what he did for me was very different to what Christina did for me. But you know, in terms of this, you know, on friendships and acceptance, and you know, what, what I find is, usually, if you have someone who's there for you, and you can talk through things out loud, and you know, sometimes it's not talking, I think people will respond in different ways. For some people, they just want to sit with someone, or they just want to be held in some cases, or, you know, it's something as simple as you know, someone to hold your hand. I think often, that's enough to help you figure things out by yourself. I mean, I have a lot of this with, with my daughter, where, you know, she, she loves being held. And whether it's me not being okay, or her not being okay. All it takes is for me to take her, put her on my lap, and she will do her own thing. She has an iPad, she will watch some videos. But if I'm sitting there and I'm holding her, it's it's incredibly powerful for both of us, if she's upset, that's what she wants, she doesn't want to talk about it. She doesn't want someone telling her what she just wants to be held. And, you know, for me, it's the same thing that, that that process of me being sat there just hold holding her is incredibly powerful for me, you know, for those moments, it's almost like, whatever happened this morning, it didn't happen. It's you know, it's a cleansing process.

When someone comes to us with a problem, especially as men, we just want to go solution solution solution, I can fix this. I'm the DIY man. But we don't necessarily always want this. And it's interesting, because I've done this previously, where I, especially with women, I want to give them a solution. But then you can clearly see that they didn't want that, or they're nice about it at the time. But they say later on, I preferred if you did just listen to me. And then if I come with a problem to a male friend, female friend, family member, whatever, reflect back on it, and actually, when they gave me solutions, I didn't want that either. So I wanted them to just listen to me, but I'm trying to fix other people's problems, but I just want people to listen to me. No, I

know, I relate to that. It's, yeah, like I myself, like you, I'm learning over time. But actually, what people have done for me is exactly what I need to be able to offer them back in return. And you're right, there are people. And you know, this isn't necessarily a gender thing that you know, I know, lots of female friends who are very smart, very strong, very independent, and they don't want solutions. They just want that acceptance as well. The acceptance and just being just being there to listen. And I think the great thing with kids in particular, is that they haven't been through this conditioning in life where you are taught that, you know, you've got to think things through and offer solutions, etc. And you know, that I think what you're saying is exactly why it's one of the reasons why my relationship with my kids is as strong as it is, is because actually at the ages which they're at, they don't have agendas. And as a parent, the only agenda you have is their well being and their happiness. And so actually there is a lot of what you're describing, which is it's this look I'm here for you, you know, it's being seen being heard. And and just this this unconditional acceptance. And I think with kids, it's very easy. It's actually it's easier to do that with kids I find with my kids then than it is necessarily with with friends or in relationships. I have learned that when I'm sat with my close friends in particular, the first question I ask them won't be What have you done today or what's going on in your life? It will just be LOOK HOW ARE YOU that that will be the first question that I asked them. And it's incredible how quickly you can get to what's actually going on. You know, I think I think it's two edges of the same sort. I think there's one, which is my advice to anyone else who can resonate with what I've talked about today, which, which hasn't been easy. It's you know, it's this is something I don't talk about enough. And I should talk more more about is it's okay to ask for help. But then equally, as you're saying, with, with the friends that we have, it's, it's good to keep a sense check of whether they are okay or not, because there are lots of people like me, who don't want to come and ask for help.

It reminds me of a situation where a guy kicked off with me about a year ago, I was in Mexico. And I was just shocked by I said, How are you? It was just a guy walking past I was at the hotel? And he said, Why are you asking me that question? So what? I thought, well, you want to just ask it, how are you? But you don't actually mean you actually mean it at all? You just it's just an empty question, you know, actually asked me a question that makes me think you do really care about how I am. And it really annoyed me. I was really triggered by it. And I was just kind of shocked. Because you just say that all the time. How are you? How are you? How's things, but he really went he went off on one, he went into this sort of rant about how people say these things. And they don't mean it. I don't know whether he's had some sort of difficult scenario in the past or some trauma around someone's saying, how are you? But it did make me think and actually, I thought, well, instead of me being the victim of this situation? Can I actually learn something from it? Should I just be asking that question when I don't actually mean it? I mean, if I'm completely honest, I didn't necessarily. It was just a Oh, hi, how are you? But I actually didn't mean it. Really. I think that's the thing that triggered me because maybe it was just a conditioned response, conditioned greeting that I'd done for many, many decades.

You know, I work in an office with 600 people, I'm not going to talk about what's going on in life, each time I pass someone in the corridor. And so I think there is a place for just hey, how's it going? Good. How are you? Great, and you move on. But I think that the key thing is sort of knowing the difference between that which I think is perfectly okay. I think one needs to be able to do that. Versus then knowing when, when you're actually genuinely asking that question with good friends. I'll say no. Let me ask that question again. How are you really doing? And that's when people tend to open up? But it's no, it's, I used to live in America for a while. And I think it's awful that it's so much worse than it is in the UK? Because there is you're almost not allowed if you're not okay, you're not allowed to say that. They expect the response where if someone comes, Hey, how's it going? If you actually turn around, say, Well, look, I've had a really bad day, they get so uncomfortable, and so awkward. This this, this was this was my experience there. And so I think there is a place for sort of courteous greeting,

there is a sort of fake positivity, toxic positivity or whatever you want to call it, where it's not actually completely genuine. And I think that that's definitely an issue because then that suppression of negative feelings, suppression of how you actually really are. And I think that's something that we absolutely should address, because we can't just go walking around saying, oh, life's great, everything's great. But really, you're just suppressing trauma that you should probably just let go off and whichever way you want to use it as catharsis. The last question I wanted to ask you today, and it's potentially a tough one, so feel free if you don't want to answer it. Have you ever thought about approaching Sara, and talking about this whole situation and how it's affected you over the years?

I mean, we we tried to confront it when we were doing marriage counseling, and it's not something she wanted to accept then. I think I certainly haven't approached it since. I probably wouldn't approach it now. Just because, you know, I do so one of the things I do still live with today is this very low tolerance to conflict. And you know, as far as divorced couples go, you know, we we've managed to hit the being on good terms, raising the kids very amicably. You know, we do birthdays together and, you know, with the kids, we do festivals, and special occasions, if it's their birthdays, we'll all get together and, and it's genuinely nice. It's not one of these things where it's, you know, divorced parents awkwardly being around each other. It's genuinely nice spending time all together. And for me, it's you know, that's that's something which I I would Look to protect. And I think that this conversation, I would avoid it just on the grounds that it sort of it disrupts a harmony. I think the other the other thing in this is I think it all became bigger than it needed to be, in the sense that it was unpleasant what happened. But, you know, I talked to a lot of people who have been through domestic violence. And, you know, this is on the lighter end of what people go through, it's, you know, people have been through far worse. And I think for me, it became a bigger thing, because I didn't address it at the time. But, you know, it's something where, through through the marriage counseling, what one of the things that I learned, in terms of my own development, is people do have just very different thresholds to conflict. And some of that is, is driven by cultures. See, there are certain cultures such as very animated and very energetic, my Italian friends would think nothing of, you know, being around the table and screaming and shouting and arguing. And, you know, for them, that's completely normal. Whereas for me, that would probably trigger me. And so, you know, I think that it's something it's, you know, it's not an excuse, I mean, what what happened was unacceptable and should not have happened. But I do think that what one of the things I took from this is just to recognize that, that people do have different thresholds. And, for me, you know, I think we were on very different ends of the spectrum where, for me, something like that is very triggering, because it it takes me back to my childhood. Whereas for her, it's, you know, she came from a culture where it is just naturally louder. And so the, you know, in her mind, it's just not as big an incident as, as it was for me. And then I went and made it bigger by by not addressing it.