[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. [00:00:15] As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales. I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The [00:00:30] Science of Motherhood.

[00:00:30] Dr Renee White: This episode is proudly supported by fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. If you are pregnant or have a new baby, we have doulas ready to look after you, to nurture and nourish you across Melbourne, [00:00:45] Geelong, Sydney, Newcastle, Brisbane, gold Coast, Hobart, and Perth. Let's dive into today's episode.

[00:00:53] Dr Renee White: Hello and welcome to episode 196. This is The Science of Motherhood, and I'm your host, [00:01:00] Dr. Renee White. In today's episode, we are having a very honest conversation about pregnancy loss and what it really takes to heal. This might be a bit of a trigger topic for you, so if [00:01:15] this one's not for you, then please feel free to pause or skip to our next episode.

[00:01:21] Dr Renee White: Have you ever felt like you were supposed to just move on after a pregnancy loss? [00:01:30] Maybe you are pregnant again and terrified that something will go wrong, but everyone around you expects you to just be happy, or perhaps you are already parenting, but the loss you experienced years ago still shapes how [00:01:45] you show up for your children in ways no one talks about.

[00:01:48] Dr Renee White: If grief and fear are tangled up in your journey to motherhood, this conversation is absolutely for you. Now in this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Bianca [00:02:00] Mastromanno, a clinical psychologist who specializes in perinatal grief and loss, and she's, I dedicated her entire career to supporting families through the emotional [00:02:15] terrain of pregnancy loss.

[00:02:17] Dr Renee White: Pregnancy after loss and early parenthood because she really recognized early on that supporting young families is the key to mental health [00:02:30] prevention. And in today's episode, Bianca walks us through the biggest myths about grief that actually preventing mamas from healing. And the one thing every woman should know [00:02:45] before trying to conceive that could protect her mental health throughout her entire journey.

[00:02:51] Dr Renee White: You'll discover the critical conversations couples need to have about mental health before their baby arrives. And trust me, [00:03:00] almost no one is having it. And definitely stick around for when Bianca explains what trauma-informed care really means for postpartum support, it completely changed how I think about the Doula's role. Let's dive into today's episode. [00:03:15] Hello and welcome to the podcast, Bianca. How are you?

[00:03:21] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I'm well, thank you, Renee. Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted. I'm long time listener.

[00:03:27] Dr Renee White: Oh, thank you. That's so sweet. [00:03:30] It's, um, it's a, it's a, I do say this to people when, like, we've had a number of like, you know, mums inquire for doula services and it's still.

[00:03:39] Dr Renee White: Like, I think we're, what, four years in or something? It still blows me away. They're like, been listening to your [00:03:45] podcast and I'm like, oh yeah, people listen. I don't just sit in an office and like speak into a microphone by myself all the time.

[00:03:50] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh my gosh. No, absolutely. People listen, I started listening when I was on mat leave for the second time and it was winter and like I just remember hearing [00:04:00] and it felt like I had someone with me in the house. Yes. I, it was really nice.

[00:04:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah, I'm a sucker for good podcasts and also, um, voice texts from friends. I love voice texts from friends. So

[00:04:12] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: very divisive, but definitely agree. I am [00:04:15] a voice note gal for sure.

[00:04:16] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. So in today's episode, the listeners would've heard that you have kindly come on to talk about the topic of pregnancy loss and we briefly chatted online and I think [00:04:30] even my text message to you when I was kind of teeing this up, I had a bit of a vulnerability moment and was just like, I really want this to be a topic on the podcast, but I am so scared to do this because [00:04:45] I personally have never experienced pregnancy loss. It was definitely on our radar.

[00:04:49] Dr Renee White: Obviously, you know, the statistics are, is it one in five

[00:04:54] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: one in four

[00:04:55] Dr Renee White: pregnancies? Yeah. Unfortunately end in a pregnancy [00:05:00] loss. And so, you know, that was always on our radar. But you know, the planet's aligned for us and we never experienced that. So it's a topic that I'm always just, so, I think, I'm just so scared to [00:05:15] broach.

[00:05:15] Dr Renee White: I've got a number of friends and family who have experienced it, whether it's very early on and in the instance, I have two friends who experienced loss at six months, so mm-hmm. I, [00:05:30] I have been a support person, but, oh my God. Like, I have to say, I am sweating a little bit to do this topic.

[00:05:36] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh, no.

[00:05:37] Dr Renee White: Um, I've got questions though.

[00:05:38] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And I just keep saying to myself, you know what, let, like this podcast is gonna be a really great opportunity for [00:05:45] maybe other people who are in my position Yes. Who perhaps haven't experienced it before. Mm-hmm. And they're curious to know, because I definitely have some questions around like. What do you do?

[00:05:57] Dr Renee White: What do you say? How can you be the best support [00:06:00] person? But then equally, if you're someone who has experienced, or perhaps this is very new, like maybe it has just happened to you. Mm-hmm. Here are some things at play, but before we dive into that, Bianca, I [00:06:15] would love for you to just set the scene. Okay.

[00:06:18] Dr Renee White: Let us know. I guess I, I know we're not gonna talk about this a lot on the podcast, but I'm very curious about your forensic psychology. I think that like, we might have a chat offline about [00:06:30] that because I

[00:06:31] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely,

[00:06:31] Dr Renee White: yeah, that's like a little like side, I was fascinated by that in primary school and anyway, we'll talk about offline.

[00:06:38] Dr Renee White: Um. So, yes, please let us know. Like you know, your background, how and how did you get [00:06:45] into this? Like I'm always like chicken and the egg. Like was there a pivotal moment where you were like, yes, clinical psychology, that's my jam. And then I'm gonna like really narrow in on kind of like that motherhood, infant kind of space as [00:07:00] well.

[00:07:00] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Such a good question and I hope that at the end of this interview, that fear that you have, that I think is shared by so many people, that fear of saying the wrong thing and getting it wrong.

[00:07:12] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. I hope that can be settled a little [00:07:15] bit because it is so common and in a way it's what keeps so much silence around this topic.

[00:07:21] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:07:22] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: 'cause no one wants to get it wrong.

[00:07:23] Dr Renee White: Exactly.

[00:07:23] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: No one wants to make a grieving person feel worse.

[00:07:26] Dr Renee White: I know. I don't wanna be canceled as a friend.

[00:07:29] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Like, oh my [00:07:30] gosh. Absolutely. And even I'll say before we started, even as a psychologist, I feel how you feel, because I'm so conscious that every grief experience is different.

[00:07:40] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Everyone has their own preferences around terminology, [00:07:45] around whether their loss is spoken about or not. And so I actually think it's quite wise to kind of not assume that you know exactly the right thing to say. Mm-hmm. So hopefully today we'll find that middle ground between sort of the complete, you [00:08:00] know, hiding away a little, and then yes, kind of feeling like you know exactly what you're doing, which no one does.

[00:08:06] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So. Mm. But yes, let's talk about forensic. That was so funny. So yes, I'm a perinatal [00:08:15] clinical psychologist and I guess from high school probably I was really tossing up between law and psychology. Mm-hmm. Going back and forth. And right at the last kind of minute I discovered this course in forensic [00:08:30] psychology and undergraduate degree. Mm.

[00:08:32] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And I just, I looked through the course guide and saw some law subjects and even some business subjects in there. And I just thought that's where I want to be. Mm-hmm. So I started, yeah my [00:08:45] study in forensic psychology in the olden days, what feels like, as I say to my kids, and

[00:08:53] Dr Renee White: for the record, for those, not for those, just on audio, not on our YouTube, Bianca is very young, so the olden [00:09:00] days, God, you're gonna make me feel old.

[00:09:03] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh my gosh. I'm not that young. I'm 31 and I feel about 85.

[00:09:08] Dr Renee White: Oh, come on, you are a spring chicken. I've got a decade on you girlfriend. Like. [00:09:15]

[00:09:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. So I started in that sort of forensic psychology stream. And then for anyone who's ever gone through the psych pathway, after you finish undergrad, you then have to do an honors year. Mm-hmm. Which is a research year.

[00:09:26] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:27] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And that was also in, on the topic of forensic [00:09:30] psychology, I was sort of really exploring things like rehabilitation in offenders with psychiatric illness.

[00:09:36] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:37] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And as I was doing that research project, I got this little niggle, basically that research project involved me having to [00:09:45] read through lots and lots of case files, history, mental health notes for each forensic, inpatient.

[00:09:51] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. That was in the study. And I just had this sense, um, which might seem really obvious to us now, but at the time, you know, [00:10:00] 21-year-old me thought, hang on, there's this common theme here. Mm-hmm. Of you know, people growing up in really challenging environments. Mm-hmm. No sort of attachment security, no sort of emotional support.[00:10:15]

[00:10:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And even though there's obviously so much more to the picture Yeah. You know, socioeconomic status, like all these different things. Yeah. I just had this niggle of thinking about these adult, you know, psychiatric offenders.

[00:10:26] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:10:27] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Thinking, gosh, if someone had been [00:10:30] there for when they were 5, 7, 9, you know, these earliest stages in life, could things have been different,

[00:10:40] Dr Renee White: different yeah.

[00:10:41] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And so that sort of, then when I got to the point of my [00:10:45] doctoral level studies, which is where you're doing the real training placements and also more research. Mm-hmm. I was really sure by that point that I wanted my research to be focused on forensic prevention. And so I found a fabulous supervisor at the University of Melbourne, Sophie [00:11:00] Havighurst, who's the developer of a program called Tuning Into Kids.

[00:11:03] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:03] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And so I basically for four years worked with parents of very young children, sort of that sort of. From three years old and up, basically trialing different [00:11:15] ways to support those parents who'd identified their children as having kind of quite challenging behaviors. Yeah. And it was really an emotion focused parenting intervention of how can we work with parents, provide that information around attachment.

[00:11:29] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. Um, [00:11:30] emotional development and, you know, is there possibility that if we get in here really early, we can change the trajectory for these little ones.

[00:11:38] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:11:38] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Which we did. Like, we, we published the studies and it found that just these little drips and, and [00:11:45] drabs of education information supporting parents to understand their own stories.

[00:11:51] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:11:51] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And how that turns up in their parenting and their own triggers.

[00:11:55] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:56] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So that was really, again, almost I've started out with forensic adults. I've [00:12:00] slipped down to

[00:12:01] Dr Renee White: No, but that, that totally makes sense to me. A hundred percent. Did you see the, the documentary Seen that

[00:12:08] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I did, I was at the premier in Malcolm. It was amazing.

[00:12:11] Dr Renee White: That's exactly what like, sounds like. Exactly what [00:12:15] your stuff like your doctorate kind of studies were, and I don't think, I mean, we saw briefly o on that documentary, like the types of stuff that they were changing as adults. Mm-hmm. For all those playing at home, we had, uh, [00:12:30] the director and I've, oh my god, her name just, oh gosh, completely.

[00:12:33] Dr Renee White: Oh, I've got no name too Escape. But escape's amazing. Escape. Escape Me, which I will, hold on, I'm gonna look it up because I'm not gonna butcher this. It's got all the greats, it's got Layle Stone and Billy Garvey, Hayley Bartholomew Haley [00:12:45] Bartholomew, uh, episode 1 76. But, but we didn't see a lot of that clinical psychology, but in the background. But that sounds like exactly like what. What you are talking about, right?

[00:12:56] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. It's pretty much that's why I was so excited when that [00:13:00] documentary was released. Yeah. Because you don't often see such, almost like a niche focused area of research Yeah. Displayed in such a mainstream way.

[00:13:09] Dr Renee White: Yes, yes. Absolutely. Oh my God.

[00:13:12] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And even as I was doing that work with, you [00:13:15] know, parents of three and four year olds, even then I had this niggle of wouldn't it have been amazing if when these four year olds or five year olds were babies and toddlers Mm. Parents had a bit of a sense around what's normal. [00:13:30] Yes. You know what, how, what do I do if my 2-year-old is face down on the floor in a supermarket?

[00:13:36] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. You know, do I need to be harsh and punish them? Do I, you know. All these questions. Yeah. I just thought, wouldn't it be amazing if parents knew this [00:13:45] sooner? And so then I sort of slid even further back. And having my own kids supported that as well. But I sort of did training in perinatal and infant mental health.

[00:13:53] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. And, and really now I work with sort of those parents anywhere from preconception, so going through [00:14:00] things like pregnancy loss, infertility, through to sort of those really early years of parenting. Yeah. And we know that parent and infant mental health is so linked. So even though my clients are the parents, [00:14:15] yes.

[00:14:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I often have babies in session and I really see like the family as Yeah. As the client.

[00:14:21] Dr Renee White: And it's, it's, it's like this, the, the sum of the hub parts is, is more, right. So like you're investing in that adult kind of [00:14:30] psychology and development and emotional regulation. Mm-hmm. But you see that trickle effect come through.

[00:14:37] Dr Renee White: And I, I tell you, like I, there is one book that I will just, I have just spruked so much on this podcast. [00:14:45] I feel like I almost need to get shares in this and I can't, I haven't got him on the podcast, Dan Siegel's book, the whole brainchild

[00:14:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Ah, ah yes.

[00:14:53] Dr Renee White: Completely changed my world. And when you said, you know, having that understanding and emotional [00:15:00] regulation of like when your child, your two year old's, like face down in a supermarket screaming their lungs out and you're just like, what the heck do I do? Like,

[00:15:09] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: absolutely.

[00:15:09] Dr Renee White: Same thing. I, it wasn't in public, but I had something very similar at home and it was the first [00:15:15] time and I thought, oh my God.

[00:15:17] Dr Renee White: Like, oh my God, what am I supposed to do in this situation? I have no idea. This is like my first time with this. Yeah. And then I, I don't even know how I found his book, but I,

[00:15:27] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: oh, he's brilliant. I actually got his other book right [00:15:30] next to me, parenting from the Inside Out. That's also a brilliant one around how when things like that happen often, unless we've done a lot of inner work, we just, what comes out

[00:15:43] Dr Renee White: is sort of what was done to us E [00:15:45] Exactly.

[00:15:45] Dr Renee White: 100%. And it's so funny 'cause. When you, when you read those books, you kind of go in with this mentality of like, I'm gonna fix my child, fix my child, fix my child, and then by the end of the book you're like, [00:16:00] oh, okay. I need lots of fixing that. There's nothing wrong with my child. Right? Yeah. Okay. Yep. Cool. I almost feel like every book should come with a mirror.

[00:16:09] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:16:11] Dr Renee White: Just be like, just so you know, this book's for [00:16:15] you actually.

[00:16:17] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely. And I think, I think that really can be an overwhelming and daunting realization.

[00:16:23] Dr Renee White: Oh, hundred percent.

[00:16:25] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I mean, in the mental health space, there's still very much a medicalized [00:16:30] model of, you know, spontaneous chemical imbalance.

[00:16:33] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And so often parents do think when their child is, you know, anxious about something, angry about something, it is very much like, you know, it can feel like is there something wrong with them? Mm. [00:16:45] Whereas we know emotional development, mental health and wellbeing in little ones. It's so relational. Yeah. And it really does involve us going, what's the dynamic here?

[00:16:55] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: What's being triggered for them? But what's being triggered for me? Yes. It's sort of like this [00:17:00] dance and no parent, like that's not covered in the birth classes. Like no parent,

[00:17:04] Dr Renee White: it should be,

[00:17:05] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: goes into it. Hundred percent anticipating that they're going to be doing all of this self-reflection.

[00:17:11] Dr Renee White: Um, 100%. I wanna talk about, [00:17:15] like, you mentioned that you work with parents, like even in that kind of pre kind of conception stage.

[00:17:22] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. I'd love to know, like, is there, is there something like, you know, what's, what's the one thing [00:17:30] that you wish every woman knew before trying to conceive that I guess could protect her mental health throughout pregnancy and beyond? That's, you know, in the context of like you know, [00:17:45] preparing for the potential of pregnancy loss.

[00:17:47] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. I think, to be honest, I think even just knowing that whether you have got a completely smooth sailing, you know, gyne history, a completely [00:18:00] smooth sailing health history before entering into the perinatal period, you know, thinking about conceiving, I think even just simply knowing that this is a time where lots of support, particularly mental health support can be really helpful.

[00:18:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:18:14] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: [00:18:15] Because even if, you know, you have a very smooth sailing pregnancy and don't experience loss or fertility challenges. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:23] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: There's a really high chance that unless you are some kind of unicorn, and I'm sure they're out there. Mm-hmm. At some [00:18:30] point along the road, whether it's birth, whether it's postpartum, whether it is parenting a toddler.

[00:18:35] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: It, it's impossible to do this on your own. Yeah. Um, you know, despite what we're often made to feel like is just figure it out and get on with it. Mm-hmm. I [00:18:45] think even if it's just at the outset, people being able to say themselves, look, there's a really good chance that I'm gonna benefit from not doing this all on my own, from having some form of emotional support.

[00:18:57] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: That doesn't have to be from a therapist. It can [00:19:00] be, but I think going into it, a lot of parents go into it feeling like, okay, this is my journey. Particularly with infertility, it can feel like this is my problem and I don't wanna burden anyone else with it. Yes. Really going in [00:19:15] with some sense of, I'm going to benefit a lot from community in this life stage.

[00:19:20] Dr Renee White: Mm, absolutely. Mm. And I, I, I think I wanna touch on two things because, and I have seen this, [00:19:30] uh, you know, friends, family. People around me and things like that. There, there seems to be kind of two elements that I see, you know, particularly after infertility, um, struggles and perhaps, you know, some and pregnancy [00:19:45] loss as well.

[00:19:46] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. Is that one, there seems to be this huge amount of shame mm-hmm. Particularly from women, not in all cases. Mm-hmm. So just so, just so [00:20:00] we're setting the scene, everyone. Mm-hmm. This is just not all cases when I'm talking about this mm-hmm. But sometimes I see, you know, shame kind of being bought upon people and, and they're just like that [00:20:15] it's all my fault. I, I've, I've done something wrong. Mm-hmm. It's, it's all me.

[00:20:20] Dr Renee White: Yes. And then, so that's with like the actual pregnancy loss mm-hmm or infertility struggles. And then when they, when they get [00:20:30] pregnant and like you say, like, we can't do this alone. There's this, I just have to suck it up because I need to be so grateful because I have struggled for so [00:20:45] long and you know, I've had so many losses and I just need to like, this is, I just need to stand on my own two feet by myself and I cannot complain about this.

[00:20:56] Dr Renee White: I should feel so grateful. Can you speak to those two [00:21:00] kind of elements that are going on there? Like what's going on in terms of the psychology and I guess mm-hmm. How. How do we learn to be a bit more compassionate for ourselves in those instances?

[00:21:11] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. They're two really distinct, but equally [00:21:15] as influential yeah you know, points that you, you highlight. I guess the first, the shame, and look, I think I'll, I can personally speak to this. I mean, so my first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage during [00:21:30] the first trimester, and then a few months later, I sadly experienced a second trimester loss in the form of a termination for medical reasons.

[00:21:38] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. Which is absolutely the worst.

[00:21:41] Dr Renee White: Sorry about that.

[00:21:41] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I mean, we always say there's no hierarchy of [00:21:45] grief and I maintain that. I actually don't think there is a grief difference. Yeah. Between, you know, an early loss and a later loss, but certainly there are more complex, you know, senses of guilt, anxiety, regret when there is choice [00:22:00] involved or a decision involved.

[00:22:01] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yeah.

[00:22:02] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: But I think. You know, to boil down to the theme of shame, you know, even the World Health Organization, you know, they will share in their resources that they find in their research. It's almost universal mm-hmm for [00:22:15] people who were impacted by pregnancy loss, to experience some form of shame.

[00:22:19] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:20] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And I think, you know, there'd be so many elements to it, but I think particularly, and particularly as women mm-hmm from, you know, [00:22:30] such a young age, we are taught messages, you know, work hard enough and you'll get there. You know, if you're organized enough, X will happen. If a you're enough, if you're a good girl, then good things will come.

[00:22:42] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. And so often for a lot [00:22:45] of women, it's potentially the first time in their life where they might have ticked every box, you know, done quote unquote, all the right things, you know, and, and in some ways what happens is still [00:23:00] completely out of their control.

[00:23:01] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:23:01] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And that is a devastating realization for a lot of women.

[00:23:05] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. And I think it's interesting because our personality is so often and our histories shape even how we cope with a pregnancy loss. But if you're a woman [00:23:15] who you know, is high achieving and you know, work hard, tick, work hard, tick. Yeah. There is something very discombobulating in addition to the grief, the sadness of, oh my gosh, this person who I thought I was going to [00:23:30] meet is now gone, they've died.

[00:23:32] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: You know, there's the grief side, but it also for a lot of people brings up things like shame, anxiety. They start to question, how much control do I really have? And it, I mean, [00:23:45] yeah, it's, I think what adds to the shame often is then the silence. And, and those, you know, often people make comments around, you know, well, at least you could get pregnant.

[00:23:54] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And, you know, you just need to focus on what you do have. And I think that adds to the shame [00:24:00] too. Yeah. Cause not only are they feeling devastated, they're then receiving information that there's something about how I'm feeling that's wrong.

[00:24:08] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yes.

[00:24:09] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So it's, it's can be sort of shame on top of shame. Mm. [00:24:15] Which is an incredibly brutal place to be.

[00:24:18] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And then you don't wanna share then. Yeah. Like you're just like, okay, that did not make me feel good cause I thought this was a safe space and it's clearly not.

[00:24:28] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah, exactly and it's so [00:24:30] hard because people often say these things with, I'd like to think good intentions.

[00:24:37] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm. But when people, you know, and this goes for anything in the perinatal period or just in life, like if anyone is made to [00:24:45] feel that how they're feeling emotionally is wrong. Mm. You know, unless they've got really well developed self-compassion, which some people do. Yeah. They're gonna absorb that, they're gonna really start to think not only is my body let me down and outta my control, [00:25:00] but now even my feelings are wrong.

[00:25:01] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Like, you can see how shame can really just breed more isolation and Yeah and for some people that grief can then translate into developing mental health challenges as well.

[00:25:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah, [00:25:15] yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then with the, I guess the, the other end when every, you know, you've got this beautiful baby and you're feeling perhaps anxious and overwhelmed and just, you [00:25:30] know, completely suffocating. Cause you're trying to do this all by yourself. Mm-hmm. And you should feel grateful apparently, because you've got a healthy baby. And, um, you know, 10 fingers, 10 toes, that classic line. Oh my god, yes. Put it in the bin Yes. [00:25:45] How do you, like, how does one navigate that? Like, like what are some, like what are some tips, I guess if someone's listening now and they're feeling that they're, what should they do?

[00:25:57] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely. Well, I think at the [00:26:00] outset it's to recognize that there is this widely held stereotype. Mm-hmm. That pregnancy after loss or even parenting after loss, um, is going to be easier because you'll just feel so grateful and so over the moon and so excited, but oof [00:26:15] often, often, not always, but often, it's actually the reverse because what it does when you're pregnant after loss or parenting after loss, and you do often people, you know, I hear all sorts of stories of whether it's in-laws or colleagues saying [00:26:30] things like, you must be so excited, or you,

[00:26:32] Dr Renee White: oh God

[00:26:33] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: must be so grateful, almost projecting their ideas of what. Pregnancy and parenting after loss alike. Mm-hmm. It does really impact a person's ability to engage [00:26:45] in this term. I'm sure you've heard of it, sort of maternal ambivalence. Yes. Which is maternal ambivalence refers to the really healthy phenomenon in which in parenthood we are supposed to feel two contradictory things at once.

[00:26:58] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. You know, I [00:27:00] love my baby and this is. So bloody hard. Yes. Or you know, um, I love counting their fingers and toes, but Oh my gosh. Like, I, I can't even get up in the morning cause I'm so exhausted.

[00:27:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Can they please sleep [00:27:15] longer than 35 minutes?

[00:27:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes, exactly. Exactly. I love waking up to my baby, but sometimes I hate waking up against my baby cause I was just up 10 minutes ago.

[00:27:24] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:27:24] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So that maternal ambivalence, which even without a loss history, a lot of people [00:27:30] feel unsettled by, if they don't know about it. Mm-hmm They all in a loss history or an infertility history where people are, may again made to feel like this actually should be even better because you've gone through so much adversity and now you're at the top of the mountain kind of [00:27:45] deep. Yes.

[00:27:46] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So what my advice would be to anyone navigating this is to kind of know you are just as entitled to find parenthood hard and to feel that ambivalence as any other parent, especially [00:28:00] because you've actually gone through so much to get here. There is something that is uniquely hard about grieving a baby and being pregnant or parenting another baby.

[00:28:12] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: It is, you are, in some ways, you're [00:28:15] still managing two relationships with two different babies. Yes. That is challenging.

[00:28:20] Dr Renee White: I wanna actually talk about another thing that just like cropped up when we're talking about the maternal ambivalence. I've seen in [00:28:30] some instances, you know, women talking about after pregnancy loss.

[00:28:35] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. They fall pregnant and then there's almost, and I'm very, I'm very good at dissociating. Mm-hmm. This is a superhero strength and [00:28:45] it has pros and cons. Okay. Yeah. So we're gonna preface that. Okay. But I, I do see some women who almost are like, I'm just growing a baby, and almost like, I'm not gonna acknowledge it until it is here.

[00:28:59] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:59] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I have [00:29:00] been her

[00:29:01] Dr Renee White: so terrified of going, if I invest in this Yeah. And if it goes pear shaped, then almost like I've got my wall up and I won't be so hurt. [00:29:15] Walk me through that, like, yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna assume that's probably not healthy. How do we navigate that? Like, and maybe perhaps as, as people, you know, if your partner's doing that or your [00:29:30] daughter is doing that, like are there certain things that you can kind of help with?

[00:29:33] Dr Renee White: Like, or do you just go look, you know what? That's her coping mechanism and yeah. And you know, you, do you boo like how does that work?

[00:29:40] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I, yeah. I almost think it's a little bit of column A and column B. [00:29:45] So I guess your point.

[00:29:46] Dr Renee White: I like that by the way. Very good. I'm gonna use that.

[00:29:49] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I think you, what you said you made reference earlier to self-compassion.

[00:29:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. So I think at the outset we want a ton of compassion for this. Mm-hmm. And also a ton of [00:30:00] understanding. So if we think about the fact that our brains are quite literally designed to be threat detectors, if you've experienced the worst threat, you know, one of the, arguably up there the top threats in the world, you have already lost a baby, right?

[00:30:12] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. So you are pregnant again. Of [00:30:15] course your brain, cause it's so clever, is going to be scanning for every potential threat. What if I lose another attachment? What if it goes wrong? What if I'm devastated all over again? Right? Yeah. So at the outset, that threat detector is most likely [00:30:30] going to be activated.

[00:30:32] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I guess the emotional response, which might be mild anxiety at one end. Mm-hmm. Through to what you mentioned about dissociation at the other, which is a trauma response. Yes. That is [00:30:45] involuntary. You know, it's not because, you know, a, a mother is going, you know what? I really don't believe in connection and I don't believe in attachment.

[00:30:53] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. And I don't believe in love. And so I am, you know, really firmly, all of me feels that I can't be connected to [00:31:00] this baby. That's not what happens.

[00:31:01] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:02] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Often it is, it feels like, and this is certainly what my experience was and, and what a lot of other clients I support go through as well. Mm-hmm. It almost feels like there is this sense of. [00:31:15] I, I do wanna connect with this baby, and I, I feel like I should and I want to. Mm-hmm. But I can't. Yes. I just feel like I can't.

[00:31:26] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:31:27] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And again, if it's the mild anxiety [00:31:30] end, it might be simple enough to kind of, you go, okay, I'm noticing thoughts around not buying things for the baby, and I'm noticing urges to not talk about it and to not announce, but I'm gonna sort of, you know, use whatever coping strategies I have available and sort of gently [00:31:45] challenge myself and, and that, you know, people can work their way through that.

[00:31:50] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. But not everyone can. And even as a psychologist, I couldn't. And so in some ways I was forced to grapple with the duality [00:32:00] of this isn't ideal. Like ideally I should be connecting with this baby. You know, we talk a lot about gestation in mind for pregnant people. It can be a really lovely experience to connect with your baby [00:32:15] during pregnancy.

[00:32:16] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So I've got holding that in one hand, but then in the other hand, holding, this isn't my choice for my pregnancy to be progressing in this way. It's not sort of what I am wanting. And I think if you're at that extreme end, [00:32:30] it really is a case of, you know. Accessing professional support if you can. Yeah.

[00:32:36] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Because what we don't want to happen is, um, again, ideally some people find, and thankfully my experience was, you know, baby comes out alive and well. [00:32:45] Mm-hmm. And then that bond, you catch up, right? That bonding starts. But for other people, that fear of something going wrong and that disconnection that can progress into postpartum and for you and for your baby, again, isn't [00:33:00] ideal.

[00:33:00] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And so getting professional support, if you're at that really dissociative, disconnected, and shut down and switched off. That's when I, you know, I'd really strongly, I remember you used an expression once in one of your episodes. It was something about [00:33:15] you could buy a, a $3,000 pram, or you could spend $3,000 on a doula. It was something like that.

[00:33:20] Dr Renee White: Oh, did I,

[00:33:21] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I was, it would've been a really early episode. It was something around kind of the value of support. Yeah. In my mind, I would be thinking, [00:33:30] okay, you know, it's a really expensive time to be pregnant and to welcome a baby, but if you can, I would channel some resources into accessing that professional support.

[00:33:40] Dr Renee White: I, I, I, I, I mean, you know, people can say, oh, [00:33:45] she's bias. She has a doula village of course, honestly, I don't care if you, you know. Welcome yourself into our doula village or mm-hmm. You know, another doula village. It, it doesn't bother me at all. I've always said that, but like, honestly, [00:34:00] and it's, I think it's really tricky for particularly first time parents, because I was there.

[00:34:05] Dr Renee White: I, I, yes. Had the spreadsheet, I got the new pram.

[00:34:08] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Of course

[00:34:09] Dr Renee White: we didn't, we didn't splash on the cot. Mm-hmm. We got that second hand, [00:34:15] you know, there was a few bits and pieces of it. You know, I got a bargain the pram, I went to the, you know, what was it? Oh, the expo. The expo, yeah or one fine baby or something like that.

[00:34:24] Dr Renee White: And I, I got the deal and whatever. But honestly, get the secondhand pram invest in [00:34:30] whatever the mental health is that you need. And a lot of people do that via a doula, because, you know, I think we are, do you know what I think we're really good at? We are really good at seeing the red flags [00:34:45] for a number of different things.

[00:34:46] Dr Renee White: Mm. For feeding, for sleep. Yeah. For, you know, physical recovery, for mental health. I mean, we partner with cope. Mm. So we have a whole kind of mental health program because I'm [00:35:00] so diligent because my own personal experience with anxiety about monitoring other mums, because I, I've seen too many people slip through the cracks.

[00:35:10] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh, absolutely.

[00:35:11] Dr Renee White: And just, and I think this is what I wanna talk about, and you've [00:35:15] touched on it already, the fact that. You know, when mum is not in a good way. Mm-hmm. The ripple effect of that mm-hmm. Is not just her own child, it's her relationships with Yes. Her partner. Mm-hmm. Her [00:35:30] family, her friends, if she chooses to go back to work, it's the whole community that suffers.

[00:35:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And this is what I see time and time again. And so when I go, you know what? You could spend $3,000 on [00:35:45] having a doula for really intensive support. Yes. And that is, that's gonna pay dividends in the future.

[00:35:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely.

[00:35:53] Dr Renee White: Talk to me about like, what does the research tell us Yeah. About when the mental health of a [00:36:00] mother is poor. Yeah. What's the consequence to her child? What happens?

[00:36:05] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. That is a good question. And it's funny, as you asked it, you share, you shared your vulnerability moment earlier. My vulnerability is, [00:36:15] I feel like I in some ways dance around this topic because any mum who has ever struggled with their mental health will know the guilt that can come with feeling like, oh, I'm so anxious cause that mean I've made my baby [00:36:30] anxious.

[00:36:30] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Or I'm so, yeah. Right. That, that, so I like to use, not disclaimers, but like I would encourage that anything I share is perhaps, hopefully experienced in a shades of gray kind of way.

[00:36:42] Dr Renee White: Yeah. When I'm talking about causation. [00:36:45] Yes. Yes. We're definitely like, uh, you know, for all those playing, if you're a long time listener, you know, I talk about research, we're not talking about causation.

[00:36:52] Dr Renee White: Yes. But we are talking about perhaps association.

[00:36:55] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely. Or in trajectories as well. Yeah. So I [00:37:00] guess if we are thinking about, like, I might even use the example of, of grief and loss. So let's say, which is sadly a very common experience. Let's say a mother has lost a baby during pregnancy, has experienced a lot of grief around that.

[00:37:14] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And because [00:37:15] of the pressures to appear grateful, mM, has perhaps been masking, you know, whether it's depression or anxiety in her pregnancy after loss and parenting after loss journey. Mm-hmm. Right? So let's say she's now welcome to her new baby, everyone [00:37:30] around her, you must be stoked, you must be so grateful, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:37:33] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And let's say this mother is figuring out in her own mind, hang on. But I'm still grieving. I miss this baby, and now I'm, I'm looking at this other [00:37:45] baby that is, this baby's sibling. I'm recovering from birth. I'm figuring out how to look after a newborn. Like there is a lot going on psychologically. And so if that mum, you know, if that escalates to the point of [00:38:00] whether it's depression, which it can anxiety, which it can OCD and health anxiety are also quite common. Or can in In pregnancy yeah.

[00:38:09] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Pregnancy after infertility or loss and parenting after infertility or loss. [00:38:15] Again, mind as a threat detector is going well, what else could be wrong? Are they reaching their milestones?

[00:38:19] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: What could that mean? So that is going to, as you said, it's going to impact their ability to sort of feel settled within themselves, navigate their own relationships, [00:38:30] you know, work, you know, do all of these cognitive tasks and relational tasks that we know are impacted by mood and anxiety. But many parents might also find that it's going to start quite difficult to actually enjoy their baby or [00:38:45] simply even mm-hmm be with their baby. Often with anxiety, there can be a real sense of charge. Feeling like I need to be on guard all the time. I need to be doing things all the time.

[00:38:55] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:38:56] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And so that being with, as you gave that example, just the [00:39:00] gazing at them, counting their fingers and toes, that can get a little lost.

[00:39:04] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And again, by no fault of the mother's own. But then what we know can happen is when parents are struggling, any primary caregiver is really [00:39:15] struggling, that baby is then potentially not going to be receiving as many of those attachment ingredients. And I say that again very lightly. Yeah. And emphasizing I of

[00:39:26] Dr Renee White: like that you say ingredients though.

[00:39:28] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah.

[00:39:28] Dr Renee White: Because there's so many [00:39:30] different elements to that, right?

[00:39:32] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. Exactly. So even things like, we know from research that babies benefit a lot from what's called effective mirroring. And what that means is it's basically how they learn to make sense of their [00:39:45] earliest emotions. So let's say a baby makes this really sad, you know, devastated face, maybe they're really hungry when a parent mirrors that back, not too intensely, but can kind of do that.

[00:39:57] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: You know, that little frag,

[00:39:59] Dr Renee White: oh, you [00:40:00] sad?

[00:40:00] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. That sends a really important signal that baby goes, Ooh, how I'm feeling is now being represented by my caregiver. They get it.

[00:40:08] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:40:08] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I might not be able to fix it straight away, but they get it. Yeah. So effective mirroring is really [00:40:15] important for babies. And when mothers or fathers are struggling, it's really hard to sort of delight when your baby delights.

[00:40:22] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Or to really do that fine tuned effective mirroring. So just little things like that [00:40:30] can be impacted when a mother isn't doing well. But I always like to emphasize and come back to this a lot like the concept of neuroplasticity. Mm-hmm. And certainly if you know you have had a [00:40:45] challenging start with your baby for whatever reason, from a mental health perspective, you know, their brains are so plastic. Mm-hmm. And often when mothers recover and are, well

[00:40:55] Dr Renee White: yes,

[00:40:56] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: that translates, the baby will catch up. You know? Yeah. The baby [00:41:00] will have enough of those good enough experiences to go, oh yeah, they, I know they get it. I trust that they get it.

[00:41:07] Dr Renee White: Another evolutionary mechanism.

[00:41:10] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So clever. It's almost like real permission giving. It's like made to realize [00:41:15] we were gonna botch a lot in those early years. It's, and so it gives us grace.

[00:41:19] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. And I'm just trying to recall, was there a study that said that. Almost like I'm gonna butcher it and I'm Yeah. [00:41:30] Like, almost like, it's like, like that real solid attachment time is like, yeah.

[00:41:35] Dr Renee White: Is it like 20 or 30%? Yeah. Or something like that. Like, like it was, I remember seeing it going, huh? What? Like, I [00:41:45] dedicated like 20 of the 24 hours, you know, in those newborn days with my daughter. I still remember back, oh my God, Bianca. Yeah. Like the whole good mother complex thing that I had mm-hmm. In those early [00:42:00] days, I was just like, no wonder I was a cooked parent.

[00:42:05] Dr Renee White: Like, no one, like, I, I just like, yeah. It was, it was insane the amount of things that I would've done differently. [00:42:15] Now, you know, hindsight's a beautiful thing,

[00:42:16] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: of course.

[00:42:17] Dr Renee White: You know, absolutely. Like I, and I think I'm gonna call it, I'm gonna say that the theme of this discussion is definitely self-compassion, because you've just gotta give yourself a little bit of grace.

[00:42:29] Dr Renee White: Yeah. [00:42:30] And our, um, brains is like, don't worry, like we can fix this later. Like, you don't have to be perfect all the time.

[00:42:37] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh, absolutely. And yes, I think it was Wincott who first kind of talked about that kind of a third ish of the time and [00:42:45] certainly I can't remember the research off the top of my head, but there was a study that came out in 2020 and that sort of inforce that kind of, if you could do it 40 to 50% of the time, that gives you basically half the time to get it wrong.

[00:42:57] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Half the time to be [00:43:00] whatever it is. Figuring out yourself, figuring out, you know, tending to another child. There is a lot of capacity and if a third of the time-ish we can really be there and be responsive and support the feelings and do all of the [00:43:15] things our children will do really well.

[00:43:18] Dr Renee White: Absolutely.

[00:43:18] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: It really doesn't, it really doesn't take a whole lot. But certainly if a parent who is listening is feeling like, gosh, even 10% of the time, I feel like I [00:43:30] just can't quite get there. Then that would be really thinking about,

[00:43:35] Dr Renee White: you're already ahead,

[00:43:35] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: what do I Yeah,

[00:43:36] Dr Renee White: you're already ahead. Just, just, just, you know,

[00:43:39] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: just building percentage by percentage with whatever resources and supports you have available.[00:43:45]

[00:43:45] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. I wanna, before we, uh, I knew we were gonna run out of time for this, um, topic. I, no, I feel like there's so much we haven't covered, but I, I, I, I'm consciously aware of, like, and we have briefly touched on it about, [00:44:00] you know, your support network and, and the people around you, because I'm always a huge believer that you are essentially just, you know, the parts of the people around you.

[00:44:10] Dr Renee White: Yes. Whatever, if there's, I was actually, actually, I was talking to my trainer this morning at gym. [00:44:15] Mm-hmm. And I walked in and he said, how are you going? And I said, oh, honestly, I'm really sore and like, I didn't have a good night's sleep, so I'm not great. Mm. And he's like, so you're good? And I was like, did he just hear what I said?

[00:44:28] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I feel like any therapist [00:44:30] listening to this will be like, what?

[00:44:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And I was like, I was like, and he's like, you're good. You're fine. You're here. You, you, you are good. And I was like, are actually, I was like, are you, like, do you have a thing where you're like, [00:44:45] everything is just baseline is good or great or excellent.

[00:44:48] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. You refuse to be anything under good. And he said, yeah, because I've gone, he's, he's 50. How old is he? I don't know. Let's call him 50. [00:45:00] Okay. He's, he's very fit. Okay. And he said to me, he's like, you know what? I, I have experienced some very hard times in my life. Mm. And I noticed that if I started my day with [00:45:15] negativity, that it was going to end in negativity.

[00:45:18] Dr Renee White: Mm. So I just tell myself I'm good. I'm good, I'm good. I'm okay. I'm good. Mm-hmm. I'm alive. I'm well. Yeah. You know that. And I was just like, okay, [00:45:30] that's what we're gonna go with. Okay. But yes, so keeping that type of narrative around, you know, surrounding yourself with people who are positive and things like that.

[00:45:39] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. When it comes to like pregnancy loss. Yeah. For the people out there who [00:45:45] are perhaps supporting Yes. Their partner, their sister. Mm-hmm. Their daughter, their son, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. What are some of the things I guess, that you could provide as advice for Yeah. [00:46:00] Perhaps things not to say and things to say, and I'm gonna say this is kind of like a two part question.

[00:46:08] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. When you're around someone who's experienced pregnancy loss, are there any red [00:46:15] flags?

[00:46:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. Okay.

[00:46:16] Dr Renee White: That you go, Ooh, hold on a minute. Mm-hmm. Perhaps we need to have a discussion.

[00:46:21] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Two really good questions. So I'll start with, with the first one, the sort of, you know, what to say and what not to say.

[00:46:28] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. I think if, [00:46:30] for your trainer, if that works really well for him, brilliant, brilliant. Like ama, like that's wonderful. In my experience, I find that kind of level of positivity or trying to [00:46:45] sort of put that onto someone who's grieving.

[00:46:48] Dr Renee White: Yeah. That's not his life. Yeah.

[00:46:50] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. I mean, I don't wanna speak to everyone. I haven't met every grieving person. And certainly I think there is a point in, you know, in mental health there's research [00:47:00] around, you know, whether it's gratitude practices and, and things like that that does have its place. But in my experience, what I find that grieving parents need, especially in those really early stages, but for some forever, they just need [00:47:15] validation. Yes.

[00:47:16] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So that doesn't mean someone coming in going, you're right, this is terrible. You will never feel better. Yeah. It doesn't mean sort of agreeing with everything they say, but someone going, this is so sad. Like this is [00:47:30] so hard for you. Of course you're feeling that way. It's just really that effective mirroring that our babies need.

[00:47:37] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Really That I was just gonna say, that's really,

[00:47:38] Dr Renee White: I was like, oh, we're doing that as adults.

[00:47:40] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And this sort [00:47:45] of, the validation I think is a really good place to start.

[00:47:49] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:50] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I'm also a big fan of asking grieving parents. What would feel best for them. Mm-hmm. And I say this [00:48:00] knowing that not all grieving parents will be able to put words to what they need.

[00:48:04] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. But even if it's something like, this is so sad, this really sucks right and perhaps you're sitting with them in the dark and, and for, for whether it's [00:48:15] days, weeks, months, you're sitting with them in that this is really hard and really sad. That might look like a gentle conversation of like, Hey, I'm wondering what would actually feel most helpful for me to support you?

[00:48:27] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Like, I'm wondering would it be [00:48:30] sitting you with, you know, sitting with you in, in the shit, you know? Yeah. Being really here with you. Would it feel useful for me to plan some nice things for us to do? Not because this is me telling you you need to move on,

[00:48:42] Dr Renee White: but Yes.

[00:48:42] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I'm just asking you [00:48:45] what would feel comforting and they might turn around and say, you know what, I actually, for now I just need, I just need you to be here.

[00:48:52] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:53] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Some might turn around and say, you know what? I actually feel like I need you to pull me out of this a little like can we plan a [00:49:00] trip? Can we go somewhere again, not to kind of forget about it or move on or feel pressure?

[00:49:05] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. But I think people love to feel helpful and when we tell people how to help us, that's actually really useful for us. But it's also really useful for [00:49:15] them that people like to feel like they've got a job often. Yeah. And so I think in terms of things to avoid saying anything that starts with, at least I've never heard.

[00:49:24] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I don't know if I challenge you.

[00:49:25] Dr Renee White: No, that's never gonna end well you,

[00:49:26] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: but I've never heard it end well. Mm-hmm. [00:49:30] Any stuff around moving on, because we know from grief research now, I think there's this, you know, myth around you get to this sort of acceptance stage and then. You know, it's all done. Yeah.

[00:49:41] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: You've sort of packed that away. We know now that grief is very [00:49:45] much a kind of, you grow around it as opposed to the grief shrinks.

[00:49:51] Dr Renee White: I like that concept cause I'm a visual person. Yes. Okay. Yes, I like that.

[00:49:57] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I think about sort of, and there's this little, I'll see if I [00:50:00] can find it and send it to you after we finish, but there's this analogy of like, there is a jar.

[00:50:05] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. And in the jar there's almost like a bowling ball. It takes up like the full space of the jar.

[00:50:10] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:50:11] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And what happens is it's not like the bowling ball [00:50:15] then turns into a marble. We grow, we do things with our grief, we carry it around. Mm-hmm. We integrate it into our lives. Yeah. And that's going to look different for different people.

[00:50:25] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Some people start gardening and plant things. Others like me might kind of [00:50:30] go, right, how can I use this in my work maybe to help others. Like everyone has their own way. Integrating their grief.

[00:50:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:38] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And so it's really about if you're someone supporting a griever, going yeah. You know, [00:50:45] either I use my own judgment if I know them really well, or I ask them, how can I help you grow with this?

[00:50:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: How can I help you carry this bowling ball? Yeah. Rather than, how can I help you feel better? You know? Yes. What do I need to do to get rid of the [00:51:00] bowling ball? Yeah. Think,

[00:51:00] Dr Renee White: let me help you carry that for a while. Yeah.

[00:51:03] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Okay. Exactly. I think we're problem solvers and often our urge is how do I cheer this up and how do I fix it?

[00:51:11] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. And often what I hear from [00:51:15] people I work with is that can sometimes feel like I'm being pressured to move on from something that I actually don't ever wanna move on from. Like, I, I wanna have this bowling ball to an extent. Yes. This relationship with my [00:51:30] baby. Yeah. I don't wanna feel like I need to pack that away.

[00:51:33] Dr Renee White: I do you love that? That is an excellent explanation to me because I mean, I think about, you know loss of people in my life. [00:51:45] And it, it is, it's just like, you don't, you don't ever wanna forget them. No. It's just that, you know, I, I do joke to people. I'm like, I've got more baggage than you can, you know, stow away in an overhead of an A380.

[00:51:58] Dr Renee White: So, you know, [00:52:00] but like I, it makes me think, I'm like, I'm just gonna get a bigger backpack, you know? Yeah. And I'm gonna get, it doesn't get easier. You just get stronger. Right.

[00:52:07] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely. And this goes in so you know, for so many things, like I work a lot with people with trauma histories, [00:52:15] and no therapeutic technique is going to delete the fact that these awful things happened.

[00:52:21] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Like there is no therapy that will erase the fact that you've gone through these experiences that have fundamentally shaped who you are. Mm. And so what [00:52:30] really the aim of therapy is, is essentially yeah how do we grow your backpack? How do we make it not feel so heavy? How do we help you grow around this?

[00:52:39] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. So that it doesn't literally feel like you're carrying around this bowling ball in a little blast jar. Yeah.

[00:52:44] Dr Renee White: We're gonna [00:52:45] give you some walking poles. We're gonna get your legs strong. We're gonna give you some new shoes. Yes. Can you tell that I like bush walking?

[00:52:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes, I do. I love this. Are you in Melbourne? Do we need to go for a bush walk?

[00:52:58] Dr Renee White: No, but you should come to Tassie cause we've got some [00:53:00] good walking tracks here actually,

[00:53:02] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: my husband has a lot of family in Tasie, so I'll have to let

[00:53:06] Dr Renee White: down south. Oh,

[00:53:08] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: oh yes, yes, yes.

[00:53:10] Dr Renee White: Ok Bianca family trip.

[00:53:11] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. Okay.

[00:53:12] Dr Renee White: We've sorted it. [00:53:15]

[00:53:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Your other question about the red flags is a really good one. Yes. On, and this probably relates, I was going to mention at the end, but I very recently developed a resource for pregnancy loss. Yes. Um, that has got [00:53:30] in there a whole section of basically when grief gets stuck, how do we know when this isn't? And I say just grief in like inverted commas yeah cause grief is heavy enough.

[00:53:41] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm. But how do we know when things are at the point of like, this person [00:53:45] is actually not okay. Mm. They are really struggling. Some things to look out for are those kind of depressive symptoms of things. Just maybe the things that used to bring them joy just aren't, it's almost like nothing is really getting them [00:54:00] out of bed in the morning.

[00:54:01] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Or even if they're walking around in the world functioning, they're attending work there. Yeah. You know, doing the things. You can just sense that there is a sense of almost anhedonia. Like what is the point? Yeah. If that is really persisting, that's [00:54:15] one. If your loved one is saying things like, I just can't stop thinking about insert whatever it is here. Whether it's, I can't stop thinking about the moment that it happened. I can't stop thinking about, you know, being in the hospital. Mm-hmm. [00:54:30] That can be a bit of an indication of perhaps are they having flashbacks, are they having really intrusive reliving experiences that are more trauma-based?

[00:54:38] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:54:38] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And things like particularly to watch out for in pregnancy after loss. That real, like excessive, [00:54:45] whether it's excessive, you know, checking the toilet paper for, for blood and yes. That real monitoring, whether it's looking at their apps multiple times a day and Yeah. You know, some people, you know, even do things like they buy a home doppler and they're using that [00:55:00] 10 times a day, which a lot of obstetricians are, would not recommend.

[00:55:04] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So really, are they even that accurate?

[00:55:07] Dr Renee White: I'm not sure.

[00:55:07] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh, I mean, I feel like I can't speak. It's so beyond my realm. Yeah.

[00:55:11] Dr Renee White: Your scope. That's cool.

[00:55:12] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: No, but from what I hear from [00:55:15] obstetricians for, there are a lot of good reasons to not use them. Yeah. Okay. Fair at home. And to not even their own one, but things like that.

[00:55:22] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: If you notice your loved one is just doing a lot of where, even if it's researching a lot of Googling, what does this mean? What does the, you know? Mm. Just going down rabbit [00:55:30] holes of random things that could be wrong, but that guide has got like a little bit of a checklist for people to look at. How do I know if this isn't just grief and whether it might be an indication that maybe we need [00:55:45] some more support.

[00:55:46] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And there are, you know, it, that support could be, you know, going straight to your gp Yeah. And getting a referral for, to work with someone in, you know, a psychologist in the grief and loss space. But even Panda have recently partnered with Pink.

[00:55:59] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. And they've [00:56:00] got their hotline now as well. Yes. So for those who don't know, pink Elephants support people through early pregnancy loss and then often, um, red nose support people in that sort of later pregnancy loss space. Um,

[00:56:13] Dr Renee White: so even I did not know [00:56:15]

[00:56:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: starting there. Yeah. Yes. So there are, and again, those are in the guide as well. We've got a little directory in there.

[00:56:21] Dr Renee White: We are gonna have, we are gonna have that guide, um, link in our show notes to run because if it was like sitting there panicking, going, where is this guide? It's gonna be in the show [00:56:30] notes. So just click on the show notes people?

[00:56:31] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. And it's free and you can access it from any device.

[00:56:35] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And hopefully like it, I have always like say it won't fix a thing. Yes. But it'll hopefully help whoever needs it to feel less alone and a [00:56:45] little bit more supported in terms of what to expect.

[00:56:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. Okay, Bianca, we knew that this was gonna happen, didn't we?

[00:56:54] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I know we're yappers we're yapping away

[00:56:56] Dr Renee White: we're just, I I, but I feel like we've got some gold because [00:57:00] Yeah. I feel like we've, we have covered quite a bit. I definitely wanted to get into that kind of shame and anxiety thing and, and, you know, discussions to have and, and broaching that type of, um,

[00:57:10] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I can come back it would be delightful.

[00:57:13] Dr Renee White: No doubt. [00:57:15] Before we let you go though, we, we have to do our rapid fire, which yes. You know,

[00:57:18] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: which I'm unprepared for,

[00:57:21] Dr Renee White: for everyone playing at home. Bianca freaked out before I told her that we were gonna do a rapid fire, but it's okay because, you know, there's no money on the [00:57:30] line. You know, Eddie McGuire is not, uh, do you even know Eddie McGuire? Are you too young for that? Me too

[00:57:35] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Young? No, that's that show about, oh no, I do, I know.

[00:57:39] Dr Renee White: Top seat millionaire.

[00:57:41] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: That, that's the one who wants to be a millionaire. I do know that.

[00:57:44] Dr Renee White: Oh my God, I feel [00:57:45] so old now.

[00:57:49] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I feel like you're, um, looking at me as if I'm like 15 or something.

[00:57:56] Dr Renee White: No, I don't. I don't, but no, you're still spring chicken though, and [00:58:00] that's okay. We're not gonna hold that against you. Okay. Alright, here we go. First question, what is your top tip for mums?

[00:58:07] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh God. That's a hard question.

[00:58:10] Dr Renee White: I know, isn't it?

[00:58:11] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh my goodness. Okay. My top tip for mums [00:58:15] Build community wherever you can, even if you're in the, like most rural remote part of wherever Australia wherever,

[00:58:23] Dr Renee White: yes.

[00:58:24] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Community, like however you can. Facebook groups, [00:58:30] online groups. There are some beautiful people running even like online. Yeah. Mothers groups, circle of security groups.

[00:58:37] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: The idea that we should do any of this. Loss pregnancy, parenting in isolation is just [00:58:45] wild. And yeah, put that in the bin. Yeah. So wherever you can community,

[00:58:50] Dr Renee White: we are definitely not hardwired. That is one thing we are not hardwired for.

[00:58:53] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: No

[00:58:54] Dr Renee White: motherhood in isolation.

[00:58:57] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: No. And I actually was reading a study yesterday, it [00:59:00] was something like 40% of mothers of babies are spending basically the entire day alone without any other adult interaction. And you just think about all the spillover effects that that would have. I

[00:59:11] Dr Renee White: say this to people like in our, you [00:59:15] know, postpartum planning sessions all the time, and they kind of like, particularly first time parents sometimes look at me as if, like, I've got two heads when I say this, but I'm like, you've gotta understand that, you know, we talk about like things to kind of [00:59:30] boxy, I call them oxytocin boosters.

[00:59:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Like if you're not feeling great or whatever, and you know, say your partner like leaves for work, they've gotta return to work. Things like that, I say to them. One of the things that really blew my mind was that, you know, I have [00:59:45] never felt so lonely in my life as I did. Yes. When I was on maternity leave, even though I had another human being in the house with me.

[00:59:53] Dr Renee White: Yes. Because then like, they can't, they can't speak like you and I like we're of just chilling out. [01:00:00] Um, I thought I was going mad because I was just like, oh my God, what is this? But yeah, mothers groups that saved me. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely.

[01:00:09] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And if you don't love your mother's group, which I've heard this,

[01:00:12] Dr Renee White: that's okay too, by the way.

[01:00:13] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: That's okay. There are [01:00:15] other options. Like there are people who run mothers groups that aren't through the council. Just find Yes. Somewhere. Somewhere.

[01:00:21] Dr Renee White: Find somewhere

[01:00:22] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: someone, yes.

[01:00:23] Dr Renee White: And if you we're gonna put it out there, I'm gonna put it out there. Yeah. If you can't find. Your mother's [01:00:30] group. Yes. Email me okay. Hello at I fill your cup.com or jump onto our Instagram at, fill your cup underscore DM Me. I will find one for you. I love this. Here we go. This job.

[01:00:44] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: [01:00:45] Oh my. Have to develop a whole nother stream of your business.

[01:00:48] Dr Renee White: I, I, I swear, like even if it's online, I've got a few onlines. I know like people like in run and stuff like that.

[01:00:55] Dr Renee White: Yeah. We will find you one. Yeah. Because you ain't doing this [01:01:00] alone, girlfriend.

[01:01:00] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. Love this.

[01:01:02] Dr Renee White: Second question. Okay. Do you have, apart from your amazing guide. Do you have like a go-to resource for mums or did you have something that someone maybe [01:01:15] gave you? Yeah. Or you found along the way that you were like, holy moly, guacamole. Yes. This changed like either your pregnancy or like your motherhood experience?

[01:01:25] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah, that's a really good question. I guess like the I actually [01:01:30] had a really hard time when I was navigating my losses, finding resources at the time. You know, I found this book, which I still highly recommend, written by Zoe Clark, goat Coates.

[01:01:41] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: She's based in the uk, the Baby Loss Guide. It just shares [01:01:45] so many stories of so many different types of losses and as, as sad and morbid as it might sound. Um, you know, I certainly had the experience and I know of others as well. There is something about [01:02:00] reading through books like that. Yeah. It almost confirms to us that, oh, I'm normal, like how

[01:02:06] Dr Renee White: I was just gonna say that.

[01:02:07] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: How normal. My grief is normal. So the Baby loss guide is one that I would really recommend. Mm-hmm. And then the other [01:02:15] resource that I always like to mention, because if we think about baby loss can sometimes be hard to navigate. Termination for medical reasons is this very niche.

[01:02:25] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:25] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Part of baby loss that is shrouded often in even more secrecy [01:02:30] and more shame for a range of reasons.

[01:02:33] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: There's a really great podcast called Time to Talk, TFMR. Again, it's hosted by someone in the UK who's also a therapist, but that's a really good resource for anybody who is navigating the [01:02:45] destination of that to, to my, my knowledge, I think there are some books, I just can't think of them off the top of my head.

[01:02:51] Dr Renee White: But no, that I, those are tho That's great that I've never heard of either one of those, so, okay. That's fantastic. Thank you for that, okay's. Okay, we'll put both of [01:03:00] those in the show notes, everyone, so don't panic if you don't have a pen and paper. Okay. And a last question, which is always very left field.

[01:03:07] Dr Renee White: We borrowed this one off the lovely Brene Brown. Oh my God.

[01:03:10] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Okay, love, love her.

[01:03:11] Dr Renee White: Well, we're talking about Shane. I was just like channeling Brene. [01:03:15] Yes. Oh God,

[01:03:16] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: absolutely. What do you keep on your bedside table? Oh. Oh, okay. I am gonna have to think about my bedside table for a minute at the moment. Again, sad and morbid.

[01:03:26] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I'm reading a really interesting book on grief. Okay. And, [01:03:30] um, I'm also reading a new book called Beyond Difficult, and because I've got little kids books, take me about a year to read these days. Yes. Um, so they've just been like permanently parked on my bedside table along with probably like six half [01:03:45] drunk cups of water from my kids from the overnight shift.

[01:03:48] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh yeah. That nothing juicy. Do people have juicy things?

[01:03:52] Dr Renee White: No. Okay. One person said dust, you know, and I've had a couple of people who don't even have one. They don't even have bedside table. [01:04:00] They're like, oh, I've got like a stack of books on the floor next to you know, my bed. And I was like, yeah. Cool. Great.

[01:04:06] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So they're like getting up in the middle of the night to go and hydrate. They're not. They don't have, that's so,

[01:04:12] Dr Renee White: oh, some people, unlike us, [01:04:15] Bianca, are happy to sleep all the way through the night and not require hydration. Whereas I am like a camel, like I'm just like up drink. Yes. Up drink.

[01:04:27] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely. Sleeping through the night. That [01:04:30] sounds so good. If you find that, let me know.

[01:04:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah, if you do that, don't DM me.

[01:04:41] Dr Renee White: Oh my goodness. It has been amazing having you on the podcast. I do. You know [01:04:45] what? I do feel better about this topic. Thank you.

[01:04:47] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Okay, good.

[01:04:48] Dr Renee White: I feel like I've got so many good visual representations in my head now. Mm-hmm. About how to navigate this with people. I mean, you know, as doulas, we have our [01:05:00] beautiful families who sign on, you know?

[01:05:01] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. Some people have literally just peed on the stick and they contact us and go, I've been waiting to make this phone call for so long, I've been, I've been stalking you. Like I've listened to the [01:05:15] podcast. I just, I'm ready to go. And then

[01:05:17] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I can see that.

[01:05:18] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And then we have some people who are like, Hey, I'm having a C-section next week. Have you got a doula available? And I'm like, yeah, um, let, just see if I can work some magic for you. But nevertheless, like we [01:05:30] support a lot of people along their journey. And in some instances it has ended in loss. Mm-hmm. And it is a very tricky and sensitive topic to, you know, have and [01:05:45] discuss with, with our families.

[01:05:46] Dr Renee White: So I feel after chatting with you today that I'm more armed. Do I feel a hundred percent confident? No, I don't think I ever will, but that's okay.

[01:05:56] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: That's okay.

[01:05:57] Dr Renee White: I think that's okay.

[01:05:57] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And I think, nor should you, like, I don't feel a [01:06:00] hundred percent confident. Yeah. And I feel like if I, did I get it like it'd almost feel Yeah.

[01:06:05] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I feel like would arrogant, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Because you can't be, even if you've trained in grief, it's so different for [01:06:15] everyone. Yeah. There's no way you can be an expert in someone else's grief and know exactly the right thing to say. You will get it wrong. And I'm sure I get it wrong too. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah.

[01:06:25] Dr Renee White: Um, yeah, I, I think what I've learned is. It's okay to [01:06:30] ask. Yes, and as long as you do that with sensitivity and compassion and understand that it may not be the right, the most right time for that person to discuss, or they might not even [01:06:45] have the words to tell you exactly what they need.

[01:06:49] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I think as long as they know that you are there. Yes. With great intent to support them when they're ready and how they want [01:07:00] to be supported. I think that's a really key thing. Like mm-hmm. Don't go in guns blazing thinking, I know I got this. Then you know, as long as you're patient with them, then it will probably. It will probably end well.

[01:07:14] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: [01:07:15] Yes. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I, yeah, you, I, I am glad you felt, feel a little bit more at ease now about this topic. Good exposure.

[01:07:24] Dr Renee White: Good exposure. Thank you so much. Alright, so where can we find you? Obviously the guide [01:07:30] will be in our show notes as well as your details, but yes, they can click through.

[01:07:35] Dr Renee White: Where do we find you mostly you hanging out on Instagram website? Yes. And, and where can people find you in person as well? Yes. If they wanna come and work with you.

[01:07:44] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Good [01:07:45] question. So you can find me on Instagram at Dr. Bianca Mastromanno. It's a mouthful, but there's only one of me, so it should come up even if you spell it wrong.

[01:07:54] Dr Renee White: She's one of a kind, everyone.

[01:07:55] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Um, and my website is drbiancamastromanno.com au. [01:08:00] Currently, I actually this year transitioned to doing telehealth only, oh. So I do all my sessions over video. I find it works so well for parents, particularly if they're, you know, pregnant and doing a session [01:08:15] on their lunch break.

[01:08:16] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. Or they have a baby and they can't get outta the house. So yes, I, I work with people one-to-one, and I also support couples as well. I'm currently closed to new clients, though I don't anticipate opening this year. But please [01:08:30] feel free to reach out. And I, I've got a network of perinatal colleagues, so I, I often love to sort of pass mm-hmm.

[01:08:36] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Names on and recommendations on. So if anyone is sort of stuck in needing support, don't be shy, reach out. And, um,

[01:08:42] Dr Renee White: so 2026 is probably more [01:08:45] predictable for

[01:08:46] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: probably Yes.

[01:08:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Okay. Well thank you so much again for chatting with us.

[01:08:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Thanks so much for having me

[01:08:53] Dr Renee White: I really do appreciate it. I've got so many things to like process now, but it's, it's, it's good. It's good. I love [01:09:00] it. I love it.

[01:09:00] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I love it too. Thanks so much for having me. This is real honor, Renee, like I really just love everything you put out into the world.

[01:09:07] Dr Renee White: Oh, thank you.

[01:09:08] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Um, and yeah, this is a very special morning for me as well.

[01:09:12] Dr Renee White: Oh, amazing. Amazing. That's so good. That makes my heart feel [01:09:15] very warm. Um, alright everyone, until next week, we will see you.

[01:09:21] Dr Renee White: If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also [01:09:30] love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula [01:09:45] village.

[01:09:45] Dr Renee White: Head to our website, I fill your cup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself, ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, [01:10:00] and empowered, so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye.