Gabe Audio

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[00:01:21] courtney: Hey, Gabe, how it's, how's it going?

[00:01:24] gabe: It's going good. Courtney. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:27] courtney: yeah, of course. I am so excited for this topic. I know that you're such an expert in this area and you've done so many great things of, I know you have a dad's meetup group and all of these wonderful things to support dads. So I'm excited to have you and to jump into this topic today.

[00:01:46] gabe: It's a newer passion of mine. I've been a child psychologist for. About 10 years now and I have a two year, almost 2-year-old daughter. Um, And I kind of felt like, you know, for the past 10 years I've been working [00:02:00] with parents and families and helping them with child therapy and assessment and this kind of thing.

[00:02:05] gabe: And people would ask me like, oh, do you have kids of your own? And I would like, hang my head in shame,

[00:02:10] courtney: Yeah.

[00:02:11] gabe: no. But I went to a lot of grad school.

[00:02:13] courtney: I know a lot

[00:02:13] courtney: about kids. Yeah.

[00:02:14] gabe: yeah. And now I feel like I'm starting to have some street cred and uh, it's, uh, it's awesome. It just kind of brings everything into 3D.

[00:02:23] courtney: Yeah.

[00:02:24] courtney: Okay. Let's start there. I'm so curious. I know you said like newfound passion since having a daughter. I'm curious what that identity transition or like shift was like for you and, yeah, I wanna hear more.

[00:02:39] gabe: yeah, in the professional world, it's that there's a different understanding of what it's like to be a parent, you know, on day one. Um, I've never been a parent to a teenager, so I don't exactly know what that's like, but you understand how your world changes when this happens.

[00:02:54] gabe: And that's day one. Um, the identity, you know, You're asking about the identity piece and [00:03:00] that's, things used to be more simple, , whether we realized it or not, I didn't realize, you know, it's like you don't really realize how much free time you have or, or how, easy some things were.

[00:03:10] gabe: And yeah, , there's this whole new added role and with it being a parent, being a father there are other roles that come along with that. So my role as a spouse, as a husband has changed because now there's this new part of that, this new this new dynamic and my role, even like in work has changed because.

[00:03:29] gabe: You know, I relate to my clients differently, but also like the way that I think about my work the way that I think about like my values and how much time I want to be spending in the evenings, writing notes or whatever. So yeah, a lot changes.

[00:03:44] courtney: What are some of the big identity shifts with specifically dads that you work with or that you've talked to that they've had to go through or experience?

[00:03:56] gabe: Yeah, I mean the, the main thing that I am hearing from dads is [00:04:00] that there's this kinda idea of what a modern dad should be and it's different than what a lot of us. Had modeled for us growing up.

[00:04:09] gabe: The traditional expectation is that we are providers, we are giving stability to our family.

[00:04:17] gabe: That, and maybe that's it, right? You know, Like it wasn't, it wasn't that complicated. Um, And now there's still some expectation to do that. But there's added expectation that now we're supposed to do these crazy things, like be emotionally involved with our families.

[00:04:30] gabe: You know, It's like this crazy thought that we're now supposed to be interested in the emotional lives of our children and maybe even our wives. That's a crazy idea that we should, you know. be interested in their emotional lives too.

[00:04:43] gabe: And that we're supposed to be involved and that we're supposed to be an active participant in our family instead of just going to work and bringing home a paycheck and popping down on the couch.

[00:04:53] gabe: That's not, that doesn't really fly anymore. And so the shift that I'm seeing is that [00:05:00] dads are they're being flung into this. And, And backing up to the shift in the roles women's roles have shifted too, so I don't want this to sound like, oh, poor us.

[00:05:09] gabe: Because, the women traditionally, maybe the mom's role was to take care of the kids and stay home while we're at work. And so now we're supposed to be emotionally involved. That's this big shift. And now they're supposed to work. And so there's just the shift and it gets it, it makes it all, it's less simple and it's, and I wouldn't have it any other way, but it's not as simple and we don't have models for it.

[00:05:29] gabe: We, a lot of us didn't have models for it. And so I see a lot of dads who come in and they say, I don't know how to do all this. I don't know how to to work and be. A great spouse and be a great father and to be involved and interested and attuned. I don't know how to do all this and I'm winging it.

[00:05:47] courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I wanna give a, you kind of just alluded to this too, a caveat that nothing that we're. Talking about today is against all of the things that moms have on their [00:06:00] plate and the mental load and the invisible load that moms carry too. We're just shedding a spotlight on dad.

[00:06:06] gabe: Somebody told me this maybe it was this week that men's that or dad's mental health is having a moment. I didn't know about this, but have you, do you think Dad's mental health is having a moment?

[00:06:16] courtney: Maybe You

[00:06:17] courtney: mean like it's like a thing on social media or something

[00:06:19] gabe: I don't know. I haven't seen it. I just see the dads come in here and they talk to me.

[00:06:23] gabe: I don't know if they talk to anybody else about it. I

[00:06:24] gabe: tried to tell 'em to.

[00:06:25] courtney: Yeah. I think it's great though, right? Like I know the group that you're putting together and like even everything that you're saying, I think it's so helpful and a lot of the, partners in these relationships are like, yeah, please go and talk to other dads

[00:06:40] gabe: well, it's,

[00:06:41] gabe: it's not uncommon. So the, the group you're talking about is a, is actually a, it's a, I don't know if it's really a new dad's group. I think maybe it started that way, but now it's become a monthly dad's kind of coffee group at a place called The Den that's just down the street from our office here in the Highlands.

[00:06:55] gabe: And. We've had both ends. Like we've had dads come to this group who are [00:07:00] expecting, who don't have any kids yet, and they're getting ready. And then we've have dads of older kids come to this group too. But the, there's something that has happened where every now and then, maybe I'll say more than every now and then, sometimes somebody will show up and it'll, and we'll say, oh, how'd you hear about the group?

[00:07:14] gabe: And they say, oh uh, I don't really know what I'm doing here. My wife just signed me up.

[00:07:18] gabe: And uh, and so I think everybody wants, wants us to be doing this uh, wants us to be, you know, building community and processing our experience and maybe getting some help and support.

[00:07:27] courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I love that Dad's mental health is having a moment because I do think, you know, and I also really enjoy working with dads. I know I'm not one but there is, this shift for sure. And like, Like you said, they're wanting to be really emotionally present, and this doesn't mean that, all dads of past generations were not emotionally present and all of that kind of stuff. But like you're saying, just more awareness of it. And I Do, you know, I'm curious your thoughts, like the identity shift from, potentially if we're like stereotyping, probably [00:08:00] like.. Having a high powered job or like being really, career focused and then your whole life changing and now you know you have a family and all of a sudden like these emotions have been cracked open that you didn't even know existed. There might be some, depression, anxiety, just stress, things that come up with that. I imagine it's can be overwhelming.

[00:08:24] gabe: A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, having a, Having a child, postpartum depression is a well-known phenomenon for women. I think it's. 12 or 15%, something like that.

[00:08:33] gabe: And I think the stat that I'm seeing for men for dads is something like 8%. And the onset is sometimes a little later.

[00:08:41] gabe: Maybe I don't, I don't have any data for this, but my guess is that maybe the, you know, stress can cause depression, right?

[00:08:47] gabe: There's like stress induced depression and, um.. You know, i'm imagining a couple weeks in, or maybe a couple months in to parenthood is when, you know, the stress can be really starting to take a toll. Whereas, you know, the traditional, like [00:09:00] the women's postpartum depression is earlier on and that's, it's stress, but also, hormonal changes.

[00:09:05] gabe: Somebody told me there's hormonal changes for dads too.

[00:09:07] courtney: I imagine, even, oxytocin, like all of that kind of stuff

[00:09:12] courtney: too,

[00:09:12] gabe: so. I think that's supposed to be a good thing.

[00:09:13] courtney: That I know. I was gonna say, I know that would be a good hormonal

[00:09:16] courtney: change.

[00:09:17] gabe: Yeah.

[00:09:18] courtney: but

[00:09:19] gabe: The, there's so much opportunity this modern Dad thing is awesome, and it, there's so much opportunity for dads to feel more love in their life, more love for themselves, to see a different part of themselves

[00:09:32] gabe: through parenting, through being an involved parent. Instead of only seeing themselves and their self worth through the lens of achieving and providing.

[00:09:43] gabe: I actually had one of my. Therapists actually had told me when I was expecting my daughter that there that this could be an opportunity to challenge the. Stereotypical link between achievement and self-worth in [00:10:00] men. You know, A lot of us learn, pretty early on that that we are valuable as long as we are achieving and providing and producing and, all that kind of stuff.

[00:10:09] gabe: And then you have a baby come around and they don't give a shit what you did all day or how much money you're making and they love you for you. And it's and so, so, you know, my old therapist is telling me about, so Oh, okay. Yeah. We'll see. You know, um, and, And it happens, you know, if we like let ourselves, uh, if we let it happen, like it happens if we're involved and attuned and we feel this, connection that has nothing to do with our achievements or our accomplishments it can be healing. My mission is to help dads like be able to experience that side of it.

[00:10:42] gabe: And sure things like stress and depression and anxiety and social pressure and isolation, those can all get in the way of, that get in the way of like feeling the, the really positive opportunities.

[00:10:53] courtney: Yeah, it actually, side note, but maybe funny and relevant a little bit. Part of the reason why [00:11:00] I left academic medicine and opened a private practice was because my stepson's. They did not care at all about like how many publications I had or if I had grants, and it was this like realization. I was like, no one like that is not how I'm getting any.

[00:11:19] courtney: Like you're saying, like That worth or like connection is not through, oh, look how good I am at my job. And all of these things I do, I don't even know if they, I mean, they know what I do now, but like, it was just like this weird internal shift of wait, those aren't the things that make me important.

[00:11:34] courtney: And like you're saying, you know, you're trying to help them experience that as well,

[00:11:37] gabe: And we, yeah. And we need researchers and we need

[00:11:40] gabe: academic medicine prac practitioners. But I had the same experience. It was like, who, who am I trying to impress here? And some of it was, maybe feeding my own ego. Um, you know, I also worked in hospitals for a few years and saw a path that I could have taken that way.

[00:11:53] gabe: And yeah, , my daughter really doesn't care about my publications or my cv.

[00:11:58] courtney: Yeah, exactly. [00:12:00] What is like one or two, you know, tangible things that, if a dad listening right now is like, oh, I really would love to make that shift, but that sounds impossible and I wouldn't even know where to begin. What is one or two things that you feel like are helpful?

[00:12:18] gabe: I mean the, The act of acknowledging that this is a shift you'd like to make. It's a hard shift. Be, you know, For the things that we've talked about, for the reasons we've talked about being A lot of guys did not grow up with a model for this, and this is not to shit on our dads.

[00:12:31] gabe: I love my dad. I have a really good dad. But it's different. Things are different. And so acknowledging that this is something I'd like to do, and it's hard and it's not gonna happen overnight, you know, it's not like, uh, you know, there's this myth that you're gonna become a dad and like everything's gonna change.

[00:12:44] gabe: And people ask you these questions like, is your life just like complete now? Or there's these, you know, like these really big questions and they're like, yeah, it's really special, but I'm still the same person and I'm not a, it's not like my life has been blown up here.

[00:12:57] gabe: So yeah. I mean the, The actionable steps would be [00:13:00] acknowledging this is something you'd like to do, and then, being mindful in your interactions with your family. If you're an expecting parent, that means with your spouse. And if you're a new parent or a parent with young kids, that means like really tuning in to your kids and putting your phone away for five or 10 minutes and just observing them, seeing what it's like, seeing how they interact back with you.

[00:13:21] gabe: It you'll start to feel it pretty

[00:13:23] courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I actually love that the putting your phone away for five minutes, right? Because it's not. You can kind of see what happens, right? I'm gonna put my phone away and be fully present and notice what's going on. And it might just be uncomfortable to put your phone away and you can

[00:13:39] courtney: notice that, like what does it feel like to put my phone away? And then all the things that you're noticing with your kid,

[00:13:45] gabe: And you know, from your work as a child psychologist, the impact of of child directed play.

[00:13:51] gabe: I think it's easy for dads especially to be task oriented and so. a lot of times when I see dads playing with their [00:14:00] kids, it, it looks like a really nice time, but, it's parent directed.

[00:14:02] gabe: It's not child directed.

[00:14:04] gabe: It's saying, here's how you hold the tennis racket, or let's build a castle with these blocks. I'm not saying you can't, insert your own ideas here, but it can be really cool to take a step back, pause and just observe and see what's happening and follow their lead and the impact that has on attachment and relationships and feelings of safety and that kind of stuff.

[00:14:23] courtney: Yeah. Do you think that even that is a shift? 'cause like I need to be the teacher, like I need to teach 'em how to kick the ball or do the things and it's hard to kind of sit back and just follow their lead.

[00:14:37] gabe: I personally have felt that a lot like my, my dad taught me a lot and I love it. I love him for it, and I've learned so much from him and it was actually like a big part of our relationship. And then, you know, I, I learn all this stuff about attachment and, emotional attunement and I'm trying to make space for some other kinds of interactions that are more child-directed and I feel myself pulled to, to [00:15:00] teach and to direct and to guide.

[00:15:01] gabe: And I'm, And I'm not saying you're not allowed to do that, right? We have a lot to offer our kids, like they're not gonna. they're not gonna become healthy, well adjusted adults if we just let them lead every single aspect of their lives. Sometimes we have to tell them, it's

[00:15:14] gabe: time for bed.

[00:15:15] courtney: Correct. Yeah. You can't stay up all night.

[00:15:18] courtney: Yeah, no.

[00:15:19] courtney: that's a good point. That there's room for both, right? You can still teach how to kick a soccer ball or code on the computer or whatever, it is that you need to teach them and have that time for, child led one-on-one time.

[00:15:33] gabe: And in the child therapy, child, parent. Therapy protocols, the child directed play comes first because that builds the relationship. And so maybe it does look like early on, holding back a little bit on the teaching and guiding to build this close relationship. We know from years of research in education and uh, you know, and academics that.

[00:15:59] gabe: Children's [00:16:00] relationship with their teachers predicts success.

[00:16:02] gabe: And so it's no different if we want to teach them stuff, which we should, we want, we should share, our interests and hobbies and skills with our kids. And it's a really cool thing that we can do. But that's gonna work better if we have a solid relational foundation, which is built through the more child directed play.

[00:16:18] courtney: Totally. Yeah. I always give a really poor metaphor analogy that if we think of kids like a bank account, the child directed time is like making all the deposits into the bank account so that when you go to. Teach them something or ask them to do something or tell them to go to bed, and we're making a withdrawal.

[00:16:36] courtney: We have a nice amount of savings built up. So yes, we always have to make those

[00:16:40] gabe: I love it.

[00:16:41] courtney: deposits first.

[00:16:43] gabe: Yeah. Yeah. And uh, it should feel good, right? It shouldn't, it doesn't have to feel like a chore. It's some, it's hard, right? That's a shift. It can be hard to sit back and watch your kid do something completely ridiculous and pointless and wrong, just downright [00:17:00] wrong. And it's, but it's not dangerous.

[00:17:01] gabe: And if you hang back and observe, you actually might see them do something really incredible and creative that you've never thought of. I've already seen that. It's cool

[00:17:12] courtney: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. It is hard to bite your tongue and

[00:17:17] gabe: just see them like doing the most silly stuff.

[00:17:20] courtney: right. Clearly it doesn't go that way.

[00:17:22] gabe: It's so wrong. Yeah. Trying to put, the square peg through the round hole. And all we want to do is say, Hey, here's the right hole.

[00:17:29] gabe: Let 'em figure it out. It's not dangerous.

[00:17:31] courtney: right. You know, It's the same with teenagers. I feel that about teenage conversations like that. That's not how life works. But yes,

[00:17:38] courtney: we can talk about that. We'll go with it. Okay. This might be like a hard shift,

[00:17:43] courtney: but I'm like. And also like very related. A lot of parents are trying to parent differently than they were parented, right?

[00:17:52] courtney: Like moms and dads, they wanna do things differently. I think there's so much influence with social media and all of [00:18:00] these things and people reflecting on their experience as children and how they want it to go differently. What do you think is one of the hardest generational patterns that. Fathers are trying to break.

[00:18:15] gabe: Some of the things that, that we just were talking about in terms of direction and teaching and, and a relationship being based on. Production rather than relate, rather than the, the more soft skills, maybe the relational skills. That's a big shift.

[00:18:30] gabe: Another shift that, that's happening for dads that is hard. That this is probably a harder one. 'cause it's an emotional shift. That's something that's built into us is anger I find so many dads. Who grew up around a lot of anger unmanaged anger that was unleashed sometimes on kids or sometimes on a spouse in front of kids.

[00:18:51] gabe: Having a hard time. Knowing what to do when anger comes up. 'cause anger's a, it's gonna come up frustration, right? I mean, we, We have kids like frustration's gonna come up. We're gonna, [00:19:00] We're gonna become overwhelmed. We're gonna be mad or frustrated at what's going on. And so there's, I think there's definitely a shift of men.

[00:19:08] gabe: Trying to figure out like, what am I supposed to do with anger? I don't know what to do with it. And there's um, you know,, With a lot of these generational shifts, there's the tendency to overcorrect. And so, you know, I think maybe there's, there are some men saying well, I'm just gonna shut that all down.

[00:19:24] gabe: And I'm just, I'll just not be angry. I'm just gonna be pleasant, all the time. And then six months later they're coming to me because they've exploded.

[00:19:32] courtney: Right, right. I mean, what, What do you think they should do with anger? And you might not have the answer, and it's probably different for everyone, but ? Yeah.

[00:19:39] gabe: Yeah, it's this crazy idea that we should talk about our feelings, we're therapists, and I have to remind myself about this. So I like

[00:19:44] gabe: Gabe. You can talk about your feelings like, dude, you're a therapist. Like you should. This should be so easy. It's just not easy. And so, you know, instead of reacting to your feelings, like talking about them.

[00:19:54] gabe: 'Cause we have a feeling and sometimes it's just so easy to just go straight to blowing up or storming off or [00:20:00] isolating yourself. And saying and you can say this to a toddler. You can say, , daddy's feeling overwhelmed right now. Right now. Daddy needs a second. Or I, I'm gonna, I need to go for a walk.

[00:20:10] gabe: Or maybe asking our spouse to, to tap in so we can take a moment.

[00:20:16] courtney: I, yeah, as you were saying that, I was thinking like, okay, where's the anger come from? Or like, what about the situation, makes people angry. I'm curious your thoughts on just that, that feeling of like powerlessness and feeling out of control. Especially with. A child and like you can't make them do the thing,

[00:20:37] courtney: I guess I'm wondering, do you feel like, you know, for dads that feeling is new or different, like to actually be kind of powerless and outta control or that feeling of powerlessness and out of control?

[00:20:51] gabe: Yeah, I mean there are so many models out there of dads who feel. I don't know if the feeling of being powerless and outta control is new. I think [00:21:00] there are plenty of models of men and women too. But the stereotype is that men are the ones who just take control back by force, they raise their voice, they get mad, they get scary, and they parent through fear.

[00:21:14] gabe: And a lot of. Men that I see were parented through fear and there, and I see men who who have it so deeply ingrained in them and they even, feel ambivalent about this. And they say you know, there is a part of me that thinks fear. It can be a, an okay part of parenting.

[00:21:31] gabe: And I don't really know, you know, I don't really know what to say to that. You know, I don't know. Is Is there a place for fear in parenting? Like, Is it okay for a child to be a little bit careful about, breaking the rule because they're afraid they're gonna get in trouble? Like, I don't, that doesn't sound all that terrible,

[00:21:46] gabe: But being afraid of my parent being afraid that my parent is going to become big and scary,

[00:21:52] gabe: that I don't love that, that one's hard to sit with.

[00:21:54] courtney: Yeah. That difference between. Knowing that there is a boundary and [00:22:00] I'm bumping up against the boundary and something might happen, verse that, like unpredictability that a parent could blow up and get big and scary like you're

[00:22:09] gabe: That's a good distinction because if you're afraid of a consequence, then you're afraid of something predictable. And predictability's great, right? We like predictability. And so if I'm afraid that, oh, I better not do this because I know that every time I do this. There's some consequence, every time I hit my dad with a fork, this is, this, something happened this morning to me.

[00:22:29] gabe: Uh, every, Every time I hit my dad with a fork, he takes the fork away from me. So, So I don't want to hit him with a fork 'cause I'm afraid that he's gonna take the fork away. That's predictable. And being, being maybe being wary of something predictable is okay. The The other way would be being. Afraid of something unpredictable.

[00:22:46] gabe: I'm afraid of volatility. I'm afraid that if I do this, my dad is gonna blow up and get scary. That that is, unpredictable, unstable volatile. Those are things that I don't, I don't think any of us would say. [00:23:00] That's great

[00:23:01] courtney: Yeah. Actually that, I think that distinction and the way you worded that too makes a lot of sense because we're allowed to get angry.

[00:23:06] courtney: To your point, we don't wanna be like, oh, I can't be angry. We're allowed to get angry. It's giving us the, internal clue that a boundary's been crossed or whatever it is.

[00:23:15] courtney: But we, we at least want our kids to know, oh, okay. When, you know, dad gets angry or mom gets angry, they take a break, they say that they're angry and like, need to walk away, or whatever it is, verse. I don't know. When dad gets angry, who knows what's gonna happen

[00:23:34] gabe: yeah, it's attachment. Like it's, predictability is what creates secure attachment.

[00:23:40] gabe: And if they're, if our kids don't ever know what kind of response they're gonna get from us, that's a good way to. To cause, the insecure attachment types, like the anxious where, you know, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try, I don't know what I'm gonna get though.

[00:23:51] gabe: And it, it can be it can be impactful. Those reactions.

[00:23:55] courtney: I feel like as a parent, you know, and you might experience this of. [00:24:00] We also didn't know we were gonna feel that way.

[00:24:03] courtney: Like before you have a kid, you think, okay, my kid's gonna like, you know, drop the food on the floor and I'll pick it up and say, you know, whatever.

[00:24:10] courtney: And then they'll do it again. And like, I'll just stay nice and calm, you know, because I know that that's helpful. Like it's actually probably overwhelming in the moment. You're like, wow, I actually didn't know that I could get that angry at this cute little kid.

[00:24:24] gabe: Right. They're, They're so sweet. How could

[00:24:25] gabe: I possibly get

[00:24:26] gabe: angry? And, And I assure you, you can. And,

[00:24:28] courtney: Yeah.

[00:24:29] gabe: It can be. It's another one of those interactions that can actually be really healing in terms of, the pressure and at least this is how I feel, is that I feel that, being a parent is a huge responsibility.

[00:24:42] gabe: Like something to be treated with, like a lot of respect. And so it, it forces me to let my guard down in those moments and say things that are hard for me to say with, in other relationships, right? To own things and to say, you know, you know, if I'm like frustrated with my spouse, i'm not I don't take responsibility for [00:25:00] raising her to be a, a good adult. I'm, you know,, She's already formed into the adult that she's gonna be, but with a child, I'm like, oh shit. This really matters. And, to be clear, it matters how I respond to my spouse too. But I cue into it and it's, it can be a time to really.

[00:25:13] gabe: Practice these strategies that can then carry over into other relationships, right? So if my kid is right, throwing the floor on the, the food on the floor over and over, and I'm maybe narrating out loud what I'm feeling, I'm saying Daddy's starting to feel frustrated. Daddy's gonna take a couple breaths, daddy's gonna walk away.

[00:25:28] gabe: Those are awesome strategies that we can use like with grownups too. And so this could actually be like a cool way to practice and enhance our emotional skills that maybe we didn't learn all that well up until

[00:25:39] gabe: this point. We're trying to teach ourselves.

[00:25:42] courtney: Okay. So inevitably we're gonna yell and lose our mind. Talk to me about repair and how to do that with kids, because that also might be a new,, you know, something that parents are trying to do differently.

[00:25:56] gabe: In our dad's group we often ask [00:26:00] how many dads ever heard their dad apologize to them? And a couple hands go up. You know, it's not, this, this is not, Isn't something that never happens. I think of. The times that my dad owned something in a reparative way, and those memories stand out like crazy.

[00:26:16] gabe: It's actually this, this, this funny story. My, you know, if my dad ever hears, hears this, he would, I think he would remember it, but we, I was a tennis player. It was one of the things that he taught me how to do. He taught me how to play tennis. And we were, hitting on the outside court.

[00:26:29] gabe: One day, and I think I hit a serve when he wasn't looking. And he got like pissed. He got, he like, and my dad's like, like he doesn't really get pissed all that often, but he got mad at me

[00:26:38] gabe: And I was scared. I was like, what? You know, That's surprising. I didn't know how to react to that.

[00:26:43] gabe: And then, you know, we're walking off the court and maybe 20 minutes later and he go and he does this repair thing. He goes, you know, Gabe, when I got mad right there it was because that ball was headed straight. Toward the, in-between my legs, part of my body. And I was scared that I was about to [00:27:00] get hit in the nuts with a serve, you know?

[00:27:01] gabe: And, and he, and he goes, Gabe, you got a pretty big serve these days. You know, That would've hurt. And it just it's crazy that like out of all the interactions I've had with my dad over the years, like that's one that like, I, it stands out. 'cause it felt so good. It felt so good to be seen that he.

[00:27:14] gabe: It. he knew that it was surprising to me and maybe scary for me to see that reaction from him.

[00:27:20] gabe: He was just scared that he was about to get hit in the nuts

[00:27:23] gabe: He was like such a cool interaction and it had nothing to do with blame, blaming me or him feeling like, oh, I'm so sorry that I traumatized you or anything.

[00:27:32] gabe: I think there's. You know, people hear this repair thing, I think some parents can overcorrect and it becomes more about me than about my child and say, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm such a bad this and that. So yeah, the research is clear, right? Like when you look at families and child development that the amount of conflict um, you know, up to a certain point, doesn't.

[00:27:52] gabe: Necessarily predict child outcomes. You know, You have two families, one with like mild conflict and one with moderate [00:28:00] conflict. That is not what's predicting how well these kids end up emotionally and psychologically.

[00:28:05] gabe: What predicts it is, are they doing the repair afterwards? So are the parents coming back and saying, Hey, that didn't go the way I wanted it to go. I'm sorry I reacted that way. I'm working on it.

[00:28:16] gabe: That it's hugely important and you can, and again, like these are things that you can say, you know, some people think oh, you you can't really do that until they're a teenager when they can really understand it.

[00:28:24] gabe: But like, you know, you can do this with your toddler, they're not gonna understand every single word, but they can feel what it feels like to have somebody tune into you and acknowledge something to feel seen, right? Like they can, they

[00:28:36] gabe: know what it feels like to feel seen.

[00:28:38] courtney: Right. Right. You're like closing the loop.

[00:28:40] courtney: And I feel like to acknowledging their reality like, yes, I did yell,

[00:28:45] courtney: And I am working on that and we'll try to do better next time. Or whatever that looks like. We want to acknowledge that like that might, yeah. That might, might've been scary.

[00:28:56] courtney: And that's okay if you felt scared.

[00:28:58] gabe: We all know what it feels like [00:29:00] to have somebody dismiss our res, our emotional response or invalidated, right? And, And. Parents were supposed to be kind of the safe space where we're not telling them, oh, that, that hurt me, and they're saying, you're fine, or,

[00:29:14] gabe: Get over it, or, that wasn't that big of a deal.

[00:29:16] gabe: Or, Or you know, even in, in worse cases, people talk about gaslighting where parents can say, that didn't

[00:29:20] gabe: happen. What do you mean that never happened?

[00:29:23] courtney: This might be. A hard question. I don't know if I have the answer. I'm thinking too like, you know, there is this shift in parenting and parents are trying to, you know, validate emotions and all of these things. We don't actually know like what's gonna happen to the generation of kids now. I'm curious is there room for, you know, the like stereotypical, stoic, I don't know, stern. Dad that doesn't show emotions

[00:29:55] gabe: Is

[00:29:55] gabe: there room for it?

[00:29:56] courtney: tough. I know I'm, I'm

[00:29:59] courtney: being very [00:30:00] stereotypical, but

[00:30:00] gabe: Yeah, no, that is the stereotype there. That's one way to do it. And that raises a certain type of adult. And I think in our, our kind of cultural shifts now is that we're in a world where soft skills are important, where emotional skills are important, we want men to have those.

[00:30:18] gabe: And so, you know, when raising boys that are gonna be dads someday, you know, that's, I So is there room for it? Yeah. I mean, plenty of dads, Plenty of dads are still doing it that way.

[00:30:27] gabe: And a lot of them would say, it's going well.

[00:30:29] gabe: It's not my job to tell you you're doing something wrong.

[00:30:31] gabe: I would just ask those dads, what is your relationship like with your dad? Because if they're parenting that way, odds are that they were parented that way. And I would ask them, how do you feel about your dad now? And a lot of these guys would say, you know, a. I was always afraid of him. He was a hard ass.

[00:30:47] gabe: He came down on me. I was, terrified of him at times. And now as an adult, like I really respect him. I see why he did that. I needed that. It really worked. I love him. We're super close. And if that's the outcome, [00:31:00] like then I think your dad did an okay job and, and maybe there were some soft skills in there that, you know, you know, maybe they were stern and scary, but like you felt safe somehow.

[00:31:10] gabe: So

[00:31:11] gabe: I think safety is the, is the goal.

[00:31:13] courtney: Okay. Right.. Feeling safe and secure

[00:31:16] gabe: Yeah,

[00:31:17] gabe: these dads don't really come to me. You know, Dad, dads

[00:31:19] gabe: don't come to me asking like, uh, asking like, Hey, how can I be more strict?

[00:31:23] courtney: Right, right. They're like, that's how I was raised. I'm trying to do things differently. I'm asking because personally we've been having this conversation in our house.

[00:31:32] courtney: 'Cause my dad. Was a Marine and he was a drill instructor for many years and you needed to be tough.

[00:31:41] courtney: And I'm grateful he had girls 'cause it maybe would've been different if he had boys.

[00:31:46] courtney: But it there very much was this , no, you work hard and like get up, get up off, you know, you fell whatever playing sports, like get up And it's interesting. Now to reflect [00:32:00] back and I have a great relationship with my dad and like he is, very present in all of the things, but sometimes I kind of feel grateful , like, yeah, you know, like I can think back to.

[00:32:12] courtney: And at the ti. but at the time, I don't know if I did, which is why I've been like thinking about this so much. Like I remember playing volleyball and I would look at him and my stepsons joke about this now. And you either get like two thumbs up or two thumbs down, do better, two thumbs down. And it was so annoying and I hated it so much.

[00:32:30] courtney: And like now I look back and laugh and maybe because there has been so much repair in our relationship, but I don't know. Part of

[00:32:37] courtney: me again,

[00:32:39] gabe: talked about this

[00:32:39] gabe: dynamic and, and said, Hey

[00:32:41] courtney: Yeah.

[00:32:41] gabe: you know, I used to be kind of scared of

[00:32:43] gabe: you.

[00:32:44] courtney: Yes.

[00:32:44] courtney: And maybe that's part of it. He takes accountability for things, you know, sometimes both my parents are like, I don't know. We don't really know what we were doing. I just uh, thought it was helpful.

[00:32:54] gabe: And what are our kids gonna tell us in 20 years?

[00:32:57] gabe: They're gonna be like, they're gonna be like, dad, you were such a [00:33:00] softie. Like, why didn't you push me? I, I needed more. Like, why are you always trying to validate and repair like enough? Push me, you're my parent, for god's sake. Be a parent.

[00:33:09] courtney: Okay. Yeah, I don't know, That's why I keep thinking about this. I'm like, what? And maybe that's the point. There is no right answer and you know, if we parent from fear, then we might swing one direction or the other.

[00:33:22] gabe: Yeah. Yeah. I think being mindful and present and actually knowing what we're doing and why we're doing it is the best option. If we have a sense of what we're doing and we have some idea of why we're doing it that's not that doesn't make any guarantee that it's gonna work or it's, you know, it's gonna end up with, with optimal results or something like that. And, And to be clear, optimal results. I think a lot of guys and gals would agree with me too, that our goal, like I'll say my, one of my goals with parenting is like, I want my kid to like me when they're an

[00:33:50] gabe: adult. That's one of my big goals. I want them to lie.

[00:33:52] gabe: I don't want them to look back. And, And, you know, and, and part of this is probably from my work, right? I see a lot of teenagers and young adults who [00:34:00] are estranged from their parents and don't want anything to do with them, so we don't wanna make that mistake.

[00:34:04] gabe: Somebody asked me like, when people ask what was wrong with your parents? What is it gonna be? And the top answer I hear is that this generation of kids is gonna say, my parents were on their phones all the time.

[00:34:13] courtney: Oh, interesting.

[00:34:15] gabe: 'cause that wasn't really a thing for us growing up, right.

[00:34:16] gabe: I don't remember my parents buried in social media.

[00:34:20] courtney: I have so many thoughts on that. Yeah,

[00:34:23] gabe: Yeah. So I try to think about that one and I try to be like, you know, have a little grace for myself that like, we're up against a lot with these phones that we're tied to and, it's okay. It's, it's, It's nice to have some phone free zones and phone free times, maybe not having phones out at the dinner table or not having phones out after a certain time at night.

[00:34:44] gabe: Those things can be helpful.

[00:34:46] courtney: Yeah. No, it is important to not be on our phones. Well, And yeah, all the things that you were saying, and I think that was what kind of sparked me thinking about the conversation too, is it's, we can always repair, we can always [00:35:00] have those conversations, And so if there's a dad listening to this now and it's like. Oh my gosh, I'm falling short. Dr. Cashier's over here repairing with his toddler and I'm not doing any of that. It's never too late.

[00:35:14] gabe: Exactly like, I, I would ask that dad like, imagine if your parent came to you today and said, Hey, son, remember that time when you were 12 and I grabbed you a little harder than I meant to? That moment has stuck with me and I've always felt bad about it, and I know it affected you, and I know it's a long time ago and I'm just now able to talk about it but I just wanna let you know, I'm I really.

[00:35:38] gabe: Think about that. And I feel bad, and I'm sorry that I did that, like how good that would feel

[00:35:42] gabe: to hear that at

[00:35:43] gabe: any age, it's never too late to do the repair, own your shit thing.

[00:35:48] courtney: Yeah, exactly. Okay. What is one thing or two up to you, things you want dads to know

[00:35:59] gabe: One or

[00:35:59] gabe: [00:36:00] two things I want to add to know

[00:36:01] gabe: about

[00:36:01] gabe: anything.

[00:36:03] gabe: Yeah, I mean we're on this topic of repair i'm sorry, matters. And we need to practice it. A lot of us, we're proud and there's all sorts of barriers to saying that, that really scary word. And people will say, they'll try to say other roundabout things to avoid actually saying the sorry word.

[00:36:20] gabe: They'll say I know how much I hurt you or something. And you it, it's good to say the actual word. So practice. Practice saying, sorry, practice with your friends, practice with your colleagues, practice with your spouses. And because it really matters and it teaches, it teaches some really valuable lessons about relationships.

[00:36:38] gabe: Yeah, that's uh, that's a big one. I think just practicing kind of swallowing your pride and owning your stuff.

[00:36:44] courtney: I love that. Yeah. Practicing saying, I'm sorry.

[00:36:48] gabe: The other one would be you know, we didn't touch too much on this, but a lot of guys that I work with talk about self-care and the importance of, uh, and it's hard, right? Like it's this conflict [00:37:00] that I hear every day of this is one of the hard things about having the blurred rolls, right?

[00:37:04] gabe: We're not just supposed to go to work and come home anymore. We're supposed to get up, make breakfast for our family check in with our wife about how she's doing, about how she's feeling about her day. Then we're supposed to go to work and do that stuff. We're good at that. And then we're supposed to come home and be present and.

[00:37:21] gabe: Help with the homework and check in with them know their, the names of their friends, this kind of

[00:37:27] gabe: stuff.

[00:37:27] gabe: And uh, right. that's a stereotype, right? I think a lot of, a lot of more traditional dads don't know any of their kids' friends' names.

[00:37:34] courtney: Yeah, it's a, it's a, it is a question. Yeah. What are your kids' friends'

[00:37:38] gabe: Yeah. Like, Or they go, you know, Amanda, they go who's Amanda? Or whatever, she go, oh, is that one on your soccer team? Or whatever.

[00:37:45] gabe: So yeah, it can feel like there's not time for individual self-care, because our day is full of all these other roles and so are moms.

[00:37:56] gabe: It's the same. It's the same thing. And so for, I think this is maybe not just [00:38:00] for dads, but for all parents, like. communicating with, with your family in a way that you can get 30 minutes to go for a walk or get a workout or meditate or go meet a friend or watch a game or whatever. And I had a actually, a helpful reframe from uh, you know, I, I do some meditation and I worked with a meditation.

[00:38:21] gabe: Teacher who, you know, and I was working through some feelings of guilt because I'm like, man, I'm just spending an hour, like by myself sitting on a cushion, you know, with my eyes closed. Like, how selfish am I? And the reframe was uh, you know, he got, he said something to me like, uh. when you do that it's the opposite of selfish.

[00:38:41] gabe: 'cause you're doing that, you're actually doing that not for you, you're doing that for your family, you're doing that to be kinder and more patient and more present and attuned. You know, all, All these things that we wanna be. And the same thing goes, I think when we go for a workout or we go to a basketball game with a friend or [00:39:00] we what, you know,, whatever it is that you do to take care of yourself.

[00:39:03] gabe: There, there can be some guilt that comes along with it. Like I think a lot of people I talk to relate to this feeling of oh, like I really wanna go do something, but when I leave, like I feel like I'm hanging my spouse out to dry, or I'm not being supportive, or I'm being selfish. And it can be hard, but to do this reframe of when I'm doing that, I'm actually doing that for my family because when I come back from that dinner with a friend, like I am.

[00:39:26] gabe: Recharged and present and ready to go. And you know, there's the extroversion, introversion thing where I'm more extroverted, where I recharge out with a friend or doing something active. And the ivers one's hard 'cause a lot of those you have to do at home. And when

[00:39:41] gabe: you're home it's hard to, it's hard

[00:39:42] gabe: to get space.

[00:39:44] gabe: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:45] courtney: to give uh, to give you the time. Yeah.

[00:39:48] gabe: Yeah. So that, that's my wife, you know, you know, for her to recharge. That's and, and that's where the communication comes in, you know, the, where it's like, Hey I'd like to recharge. Can you take the kids somewhere or, can I have some space?[00:40:00]

[00:40:01] courtney: Perfect. I love that. I'm sorry. And take time for yourself 'cause it actually helps you be more present with your family.

[00:40:07] gabe: I think so, yeah, the reframe has been really helpful for me because I, that guilt, that guilt can eat at us and it's like, oh, I'm so selfish. And it's really not like the, the, to be clear, I'm not giving you just like free permission to just go off and fuck around, do whatever you want at

[00:40:21] gabe: all times.

[00:40:22] gabe: But it's okay to out and take care of yourself.

[00:40:25] courtney: For sure, and that's what I was thinking too. I think it's different, right? Like, Okay, I'm doing all these things. Me and my partner, we have this, ebb and flow of who's taking care of stuff. Okay, this person's going out to dinner with their friend. Great. I'm handling this stuff. They come home and now I go for a walk.

[00:40:41] courtney: Like, Yeah. You know, It's not all, all or

[00:40:44] gabe: The, The balance helps too, right? It, It doesn't feel good if, if only one of the parents is doing all of this and the other person never has a chance to recharge or take care of themselves. If I'm needing that, I'm advocating for my own self-care.

[00:40:57] gabe: I'm saying, Hey, can I go do this [00:41:00] thing? And also can I make some time for you to do something?

[00:41:02] courtney: Yep.

[00:41:03] courtney: Perfect. thank you so much. I

[00:41:06] gabe: Yeah,

[00:41:07] courtney: other things that we can talk about, but

[00:41:09] gabe: we

[00:41:09] gabe: could go on.

[00:41:10] courtney: Yeah.

[00:41:11] gabe: Yeah.

[00:41:11] courtney: have to do it again, so I appreciate your time.

[00:41:15] gabe: Thanks a lot Courtney. This is awesome.

[00:41:17] courtney: Perfect.

[00:41:17] gabe: I.

[00:41:18] ​