Fay Wallis: Welcome to this episode of HR Coffee Time. It’s wonderful to have you here. I'm your host Fay Wallis, a career coach and the founder of Bright Sky Career Coaching, where our mission is to help HR and people professionals have successful and fulfilling careers without working themselves into the ground. Before I dive into this week's episode, I'd just like to say a big thank you to Emma Clayton for posting about HR Coffee Time on LinkedIn this week. She shared episode number 67, which is called ‘How to get on top of email overwhelm when you're in a busy HR role’ and she said it was really helpful. So thank you so much for sharing the episode Emma and tagging me in it. It's brilliant to hear that you enjoyed it.
But moving on to today's episode, which is called ‘supporting yourself or your colleagues at work with Tourette Syndrome’. If you've been following the podcast for a while, you may have realised that this is the fourth episode on the show that specifically focuses on neurodiversity. The first episode was episode 24, ‘understanding and supporting neurodiversity at work’, with Melanie Francis. And I was thrilled for Melanie because she has recently been recognised as one of the top 80 neurodiversity evangelists in the UK in 2023. It's brilliant news, and so well deserved. And after recording the episode with Melanie, an HR Coffee Time listener, Devon Lovell got in touch and recommended that I record some episodes about HR professionals who are neurodiverse, which I thought was such a good idea. I know that there is so much we can all learn from each other in the HR community.
And it means that I am really grateful to Cybill Watkins, Julie White, and Devon, who all agreed to come on the show to talk about their own experiences of neurodiversity. They've generously shared their stories of their journey to getting a diagnosis, the strengths and struggles that neurodiversity can bring and their advice for you if you think that you are neuro diverse, or you want to support your neurodiverse colleagues, and create an inclusive workplace. You met Cybill back in episode 68, which was called 'Real life insights into understanding and supporting autism in the workplace.' And you met Julie back in episode 59. The episode was called 'ADHD, a personal story of the strengths, struggles and strategies that help'. Now I am delighted to be able to introduce you to Devon, where he is going to share his personal experience of Tourette Syndrome.
Welcome to the show, Devon. I feel like you're a little bit famous because I've been thanking you so much on previous episodes, because as many regular listeners to the show will know you got in touch with me and made some brilliant recommendations for topics that you thought would be really interesting for the listeners. So it's just wonderful to have you here and have you here as the guest on the show.
I thought we could start things off by me asking you if you'd be happy to share your story of your journey to getting your diagnosis.
Devon Lovell: Well, thank you for having me. It's brilliant to be here. And the podcast is fantastic. And I've really enjoyed relishing the opportunity to discuss my diagnosis of Tourette Syndrome. Tourette's, for me has been a journey as you say. So I do appreciate the word. And it's apt.
Tourette's in itself can be a difficult diagnosis to obtain purely because and I would say this is a requirement to a diagnosis, it might not be the best phrase, but you do need to have a motor and non and a verbal tic as well. So it's your nonverbal and your verbal tics. And you need to have at least one verbal tic for a year as well as as well as your your motor tics. And once you've had that for a year, can you start to seek a diagnosis. So, my journey really began in my adulthood more so than it was as a child even though I did experience tics then they were not as prominent or as frequent or as severe. So, it didn't really alarm anybody if I'm perfectly honest, and only into my adulthood where my tics started to become more prominent and they started to become more severe and particularly more frequent and experiencing more and more each day. That it made me wonder, what am I dealing with here? What is actually happening?
I was very lost in the beginning I didn't even consider Tourette's as being something that I might actually have, and I'll be honest, I didn't know much about Tourette's other than what I'd seen in movies. And, of course, that's just what we get exposed to. So my journey through to to get in my diagnosis was one where I to wait a year to two years to see anybody. I was fortunate that I had a fantastic GP. And I must admit, it might sound like a long time, but I was rather fortunate. If you look into a lot of others who waited a really long time to get their diagnosis. And once I was on this journey, you know, to make sure when I went to the neurologist that they were looking at the different tics, my wife had to take videos over the course of a year, which was a little bit embarrassing, I guess, at times, and a bit strange having someone video tape and you know, she had to have the camera ready, but all this is evidence to that. And I got my diagnosis a few months ago, almost a year. And it was for Tourette Syndrome, and traits of ASD and ADHD as well.
Fay Wallis: I have heard that they very often go hand in hand. I think when I was doing some research for our episodes together, I read that there's an 85% chance that you will also receive a diagnosis for OCD or ASD, if you have Tourette Syndrome.
Devon Lovell: It was a bit of a shock. And I walked in to get one diagnosis. And then I came up with with a few others. And I think in the beginning, it definitely played on my mind about what does that mean for my future? What does that actually mean about how I've been coping with situations and how I've potentially viewed the world, I think it gave me how to really reflect on what this meant, and how I was actually going to deal with this. And unfortunately, you know, when you get a diagnosis like this, not everybody is going to support you. Not everybody's going to believe the diagnosis. And I did experience that which was a bit heart wrenching. But ultimately, I'm very fortunate, on the other hand to have a phenomenal family and wife support. And I've got a great work environment where I receive a lot of support. And this is all culminated into building up a bit of confidence, even though I do experience different aspects of neurodiversity. And and I'm quite thankful that at least by being open and honest about it, I've received that support.
Fay Wallis: Well, I'm really sorry to hear that not everybody has been supportive, but pleased that it sounds like a lot of people have been.
Devon Lovell: Yes, they definitely have Yeah.
Fay Wallis: And I wonder if part of the lack of support from some people is this lack of understanding and awareness about the condition, or I should say conditions where you talked about more than one just there. Because when you got in touch to suggest that I take a bit of a deeper dive into neurodiversity, because I had covered it on the podcast once, but it was very much an overview of neurodiversity when I had Melanie Francis on the show, and at that point, I hadn't really thought necessarily about branching out into looking at each neurodiverse condition in detail and how we can be supporting ourselves if we're neurodiverse and our neurodiverse colleagues as far as being HR professionals are concerned.
And so I'm so pleased that you did suggest it, because it's just so important. And it's meant that I've learned so much more. We were chatting just before we hit record and I said to you, although I knew a lot about dyslexia, because of my son being dyslexic, and actually, ADHD seems to have been getting which I'm very pleased about, a lot of airtime recently and there's a lot more information about it. And I was really surprised when I started doing some research into Tourette Syndrome, so that I would hopefully be able to speak at least slightly intelligently about the topic, to realise there isn't nearly as much information out there, there doesn't seem to be as much visibility and awareness.
There's a little bit more recently, I think, especially because I noticed Lewis Capaldi has started talking about his recent diagnosis of having TS. But I'll always before a podcast, I will listen to other podcasts that have covered the same topic that I'm going to. I couldn't find one podcast that was talking about Tourette Syndrome at work. I just, I couldn't believe it. The podcast that I did find was actually a Manchester United podcast because there was a goalkeeper - I know nothing about football. I now... I've now... I now know a lot about one particular goalkeeper who is called Tim Howard and he has written an autobiography where he talks about this but so, apart from that there really - I couldn't find anything. So, again, I feel like I'm going to keep saying thank you, Devon, because it's made me realise how important it is that we are talking about it today. So that hopefully, but just this little podcast, we're going to help raise a lot more awareness and understanding.
Devon Lovell: I really appreciate having that perspective as well. You know, looking at Tourette's, I think some of the statistics are quite alarming in the sense that it's actually one in 100 people will be diagnosed or have Tourette syndrome.
And Tourette's doesn't always manifest itself in these massively noticeable tics. For instance, it could be as something as a blink of an eye roll or a cough, someone has an each tic is different. And these ticks wax and they wane. I think it may be perceived that when you do have Tourette's you're ticking absolutely all the time, that is not true for everyone. So my tics wax and they wane as do others. And sometimes they change as well, which can be quite surprising. A new one may just come out of nowhere, which you know, keeps you guessing. And I don't I don't mind that to be honest. But yeah, if if anything, it's wonderful that you opened yourself and allowed the platform that you've got so that we can raise awareness for Tourette Syndrome. So thank you.
Fay Wallis: You're very welcome. And I'm going to stop saying thank you every five seconds now. I'll move us along to the rest of the questions that I was hoping to ask you.
Devon Lovell: Perfect.
Fay Wallis: The next question I was hoping to ask you is about strengths and struggles. So I just mentioned that back in episode 24 of the podcast, I had the wonderful guest, Melanie Francis on the show, where we were talking about neurodiversity. And I really liked the way she talked about the fact that anyone with any form of neurodiversity well, and in fact, any of us, whether we're neurodiverse or not, that will have strengths and struggles. And so it would be wonderful to hear what strengths your neurodiversity brings for you, because I think it would just be too easy to leap straight into what some of the challenges are. And I know that there are great strengths that it brings.
Devon Lovell: Of course, and I appreciate that there are differences in the strengths and the struggles. And I can attest that. Even if someone struggles with the idea of strengths, if you potentially, using words like a gift, or even a superpower, it really does sometimes change your perception or paradigm of how you looking at and if I think of the strengths that I've been blessed with, many of these has come from going through difficult and challenging times. And one of these is resilience. Tourette syndrome, or neurodiversity really does bring about a form of resilience because in normal situations, you are having to adapt change, work towards something in a different way.
And you cannot allow or try not to allow the challenge that you face, to put you in a position where you don't achieve your goal. So resilience is giving you one that manifests itself, which I'm grateful for. When it came to my Tourette's diagnosis, it definitely helped in establishing what some of the strengths were, which I always just thought were, you know, little things that I've just naturally kind of good at. And one of them, which is slightly strange is I'm extremely observant, I can notice really minor little details, which I'm sure is frustrating at times, because I've noticed something completely out of place. But it can also be very wonderful if someone has had something maybe a hair cut or something I'll notice immediately.
But in my work life having an observational strength is really helped when I'm working with policies, procedures, or anything where I note that there's been a change or there needs to be a change, it's been great. Thinking about how this has impacted me in another way, which I've been very grateful for is being hyper focused, I can genuinely get hyper focused in a topic or a hobby of interest where I just completely immerse myself in it. And that can be so rewarding as well. Sometimes I get a bit distracted as you do. But when I've got that hyper focus in play, I want to understand it from start to finish. I really want to to learn as much as I possibly can. And I will look down and I'll be busy with work at one point I also look back up and like four hours have gone by and I've just been key and utterly focused and I find that to be a great strength.
And because Tourette's can be stress inducing, I need to plan ahead. I need to understand what situation I'm going into. I need to know that I am working towards being a really good plan and organised. So that reduces my stress load. So once once I recognise where the stresses were coming from as well, these strengths came up, you know, it means that I'm a really good clan, that means that I, I'm able to observe changes quite effectively. I'm hyper focused, improvising is fantastic. There's one thing I definitely can do quite easily. And I think neurodiverse when you're wired differently, to think differently, you view things differently, that you've got this ability to look at a problem in a complete and unique way, which can be so impactful, and open that door of opportunity to try something new. So I have been quite fortunate in that sense that I try and look at my diagnosis, and neurodiversity. And with a positive lens, and a positive outlook,
Fay Wallis: It's brilliant to hear that you've been able to identify those strengths and really lean into them. Can I ask you to talk about something that might feel more difficult, which is, what the struggles are that your neurodiversity brings,
Devon Lovell: Of Course, I think with anything that's positive, you're going to have that challenge that comes with it. And some of those, for me generally are quite emotional, because I find Tourette's can be very frustrating, in a sense that I can have marble pattern, completely jarred or can be interrupted by a tick or emotion or a sound. And that can be immensely frustrating when I'm just trying to get something done. Even I can be hyper focused, like anything, when my tics do come out, or when I am having some vocal tics, it can be jarring, and try to get back into that mode can be really difficult. And in certain situations to read can be stressful, you know, if I think about something really simple as going to the cinema, or watching a movie, and all of a sudden, some vocal tics just coming to nowhere.
And sometimes it's time it can be simply comical, I appreciate humour, but it can also be stressful, you know, people are going to the movies enjoy it, everybody's quiet and enjoying the film. But when I have motor tics, or when I'm vocal tics and that sort of situation, it can be embarrassing, people do look around, and that's completely normal, I totally understand that. But sometimes you don't want to be that centre, and not always gonna understand. So you know, and that will go into other situations, such as maybe a funeral or a wedding. And you got to be conscious that, listen, this is something that might just actually happen. So you really have to prep yourself. And I've found that when everybody knows, in some respects, it can be very helpful. So I thought that I'll wear a bed when I do, I have no issue with my wife discussing at all, if anybody needs to discuss it, so that if I do typically think about that, it's not as distracting.
And I guess, combined with all of that it can be emotional, you're dealing with a lot, and it's something you really can't control, as much as you'd like to and you can suppress a tick, but it's like suppressing a sneeze, eventually, it's going to come out. So I have found that to be rather an emotional struggle. And physical struggle is sleep, I can really lose a lot of sleep. Sometimes if I'm taking before I go to sleep, or if I'm taking while I'm asleep, you know, that can wake me up and then can be difficult to get back to sort of find that rhythm again. So the struggles are there. And as much as you look at life, we look at this in a positive way I think would be foolish, and it would be irresponsible not to say that these struggles are there, as everybody has got struggles. These are just in particular the ones that that I've experienced with Tourette's.
Fay Wallis: And is it the same struggles at work? Or do you find other challenges appear there as well?
Devon Lovell: That's a good question. I do client facing work. I work as an HR consultant. So I do go into client facing meetings. And in the beginning, I was concerned, how is this going to look as it's going to be interpreted. And it took a while for me to gain that confidence. But I do have to thank my employer, Fitzgerald, because they have been wonderful at helping me build that confidence. And I'm working with clients. One of the things that's been great about remote working as well is that if I am in a meeting, I can press the mute button. So you know, there are things that have been great. Yeah, could you please press the mute button if I'm having some tics and it's going to be distracting.
But the struggles again, that sense of competence and maybe some maybe self esteem and not getting frustrated, even though you're in a boardroom meeting and maybe someone's having that opportunity presents a new strategy, the business I'm conscious that I don't want to stop their flow of thought or stop that, that natural rhythm that someone's in. And I guess that can be something I do struggle with. So it does sort of play itself in both professional and personal. But in both circumstances, I would say that support really does make a world of difference.
Fay Wallis: It's so interesting to hear you say about the fact that remote working can bring real benefits, like just hitting the mute button, I hadn't thought about that at all.
Devon Lovell: It can, and it has, you know, there's a comfort as well working from home, I'm at home. So this is in terms of stress, maybe catching a train, or, you know, you'd be late to a meeting or anything like that, because Tourette's does have a stress inducing component, I find it work from home can be really helpful. It's my own space, my meetings are scheduled, I know that if I'm if and also I can send a message, and I am to someone in the team, if they look, you know, this is happening, or, please forgive me, if I need to put my camera off, I'm having quite a few motor tics at the moment. And I'm afraid it might be distracting. So I do feel like remote working can again be quite supportive, depending on how you set up.
Fay Wallis: And it's fantastic to hear that as well as that your employer has been so supportive, it would be wonderful to hear more about how they've been supportive, and maybe some of the strategies that you've found that have really helped you in the workplace.
Devon Lovell: And, to be honest, it was there had already created a bridge of communication just completely open. And I had, even though, maybe some trepidation, I never felt fear or an hour, probably it was a little bit anxious. But by the way, there had always been support from the very beginning. And I must say this is from even at the recruitment stage, I knew this was this is a supportive company. And there was no change, and it went all the way through. And that comfort really helped me to be open. And what they did was when I talked about my diagnosis, and actually I hadn't formally received it up until that point, I was still talking about what I believed to be my diagnosis.
They immediately wanted to find out what adjustments do I need, they wanted to understand and walk me through this journey. No one was saying that they were an expert, everybody was saying, this is your experience? And how do you experience things? And what can we do to if possible, improve your working conditions? There was no, it always came from a place of what is my comfort? What do I need. And if I'm not in a good space, there was so much encouragement to just talk. And it was never going to be used in a negative way. I worked with Lisa and Dee and Ryan and all three of them at Fitzgerald they've just been absolutely phenomenal at giving me that space where if I need to say, look, this is this is too much, or I can't concentrate, or I've been ticking a lot. And it's frustrating.
They've just been there and been available. And these are the small things. I think from a work perspective as well. A try my best to take strategies such as mindfulness, breathing, calming ways of working, has been exceptionally helpful. So planning ahead, I'm very good at making sure I know what my calendar says, What am I doing that day? What are the details. And all of these little strategies are all about to reduce stress where possible. And I do try and implement the strategy of what I can call control. I think that's always easy to to say out loud, but very difficult to implement. And they also speak to that we're we're given just, you know, do what you can control, what can you control, you know, they were singing from the same hymn sheet and I found that to be exceptionally helpful.
Fay Wallis: While I'm sure it's going to be incredibly helpful and reassuring for anyone listening to hear that Devon, I think especially because there can be this temptation to think, Oh, we've got to know all the answers or we should be making suggestions as to what kind of adjustments we can put in place. But from what you're describing there, it sounds very much that actually having just an open conversation about it and asking you what you need is really what was so beneficial.
Devon Lovell: Definitely, definitely. I completely agree with that.
Fay Wallis: For anyone listening today, who works in HR and is thinking, you know, I wonder if I am neurodiverse but I'm not sure. What would your advice to them be?
Devon Lovell: Don't doubt yourself If you have evidence, or you have that gut feeling, explore it, but do so in a way that isn't just a Google search. Please don't rely on Dr. Google to to give you a diagnosis and a how and where things are data support where you can. And there are so many organisations out there, you know, for me is Tourettes Action, that's the charity, they put a lot of great messaging. And if you're in a situation where you need to, to find that support, get it, you know, to your listeners is a community is HR as a community, people are willing to be there. So if you think you are neurodiverse, my advice is to reach out, be honest, don't doubt yourself, you've got the evidence. And you and you got to believe you got that, you know, you will know. And I'd say just don't doubt yourself and seek the support. You need it because it's available.
Fay Wallis: Well that sounds like excellent advice, Devon. And then thinking of it from the other perspective. So anyone listening who works in HR, most of our listeners do, because it's HR Coffee Time. And they want to make sure that they're supporting anyone in the workplace who, who is neurodiverse. What is it that they can be doing to make sure they're being as inclusive as possible? So you've talked through the importance of having those open and transparent conversations, what would your other recommendations and advice be?
Devon Lovell: Education is absolutely vital. Education over compliance. Is it's not a checkbox being inclusive, and supporting a staff is an everyday thing. It's not a sometimes thing. And if I was giving anybody advice minded, really be all we being inclusive, ask the question, challenge yourself. And when you give a binary answer, such as yes or no, follow that up with why do I believe that? What evidence do I have to show that I am being inclusive? And that is okay. And try and talk it out with other people? Because it can be, you know, when we ask ourselves, these questions we give it we have a subjective perspective. And sometimes we need to ask others to get that objectivity. So I would say when it be inclusive, ask yourself, are we actually increasing? What evidence do we have to support that? And it's not just providing everybody the exact same platform?
Because that's not what this is. It's about considering the workforce? Do they have that space? To be open, honest? And as a business? Are you challenging yourself by asking these questions? And if you aren't, I just encourage you to do that. And you know what, you're never gonna have all the answers. So learn, just learn, take an open book and learn. Because each person here diversity is completely unique. And the only way to understand I can support that person, let them explain what is difficult to them. It's not a we've done a course and now we understand your averted it's not about that. It's a it's a mindset that needs to be implemented and utilised, because that mindset will drive all sorts of other decisions. So I would, I would go with an attitude and perceptual mindset change one of growth and open.
Fay Wallis: I think one of the things I'm realising more and more, the more that I learn about neurodiversity is what you've just articulated about everyone being different. When I was reading about Tourette Syndrome, in preparation for our interview, someone described it as fingerprints. So the way it will present will be completely unique to every single person. And I'm sure that we could say the same about ordinary diversity or they we can say, Oh, this is what you may experience or this is how it may affect you actually, the intricacies and the way you experience it, it's going to be completely unique, which is why we can't possibly have all the answers, and why it is so important for us to have the education and the conversations.
Devon Lovell: Ok and I love that way of thinking about it. The fingerprints, it, that's a perfect way to describe that every single person experiences slightly differently. And the real value comes from knowing that someone that is that identifies as or is neurodiverse, you will see things differently. And there's nothing more powerful than that. So the value in being open that also being a curious listener, is really gonna give not only is it going to make a positive impact yourself, it's going to make a positive impact to your workforce, which then generates damage to the community and many employees may not have may not be neurodiverse. But they may have a child who has been diagnosed with ADHD or ASD and, and it's important for them to see that workplaces are gonna be prepared for when their children enter the workforce. So it's, it's a never ending iterative process of learning and understanding. And so I'm really fortunate enough to be at a time when this is becoming more prominent people are talking about it more, and they want to understand it more and people like blues Capelle Did you stayed with Billy Eilish coming out and actually signed up? This is what I've got. These are the kinds of things which which gives people more confidence, and it's no longer taboo subject or taboo .opic,
Fay Wallis: Pulling on that thread that you've been talking about education and how important that is, I'm intrigued to hear what your book recommendation is going to be Devon, because I haven't asked you beforehand, so that it's a surprise because as any regular listener will know I always ask every guest if they're happy to share a nonfiction book recommendation. So can I ask you what your one is?
Devon Lovell: My book recommendation is 4000 weeks. And it's by Oliver Berkman. It is a book about time, and how it's finite. It's not a book where it's it's a philosophy about, we've only got technically 4000 weeks on this planet, and what strategies and things can you do to actually enjoy your 4001 and accomplish the things you want to do. It's not just a goal setting. It's more about time management philosophy, and I found it to be immensely helpful, so I highly recommend it.
Fay Wallis: I recorded this episode with Devon a couple of months ago. And as I'm sat here, editing it and recording this final outro for you. I had completely forgotten that he had recommended that book. And it looks absolutely brilliant. I'll pop a link to it in the show notes for you in case you'd like to take a look at it as well. I really hope that you enjoyed this episode and learning from Devon.
And I'm so grateful to him and to all of the guests who come on to HR Coffee Time. If you have found the show helpful, can I ask you for a tiny favour and that is to share it with a friend because I would love to reach as many HR and People professionals as they can with these free weekly episodes to help everyone with their HR careers. Thank you so much. That's all from me for the moment. I'll be back again next Friday with the next episode.