Flexible self concept - 10 July 2024 audio (1)

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to season 6 episode 13 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Richard: when we talk about, present moment awareness, you know, way, way back at the beginning of this series, being present in the moment, this is for me, the bit that goes hand in hand with that, which aspects of you are you going to bring to life now that you know, the moment you're in, how you're paying attention to now, so what does that tell you about how to navigate this, which aspects of your identity are you going to use or lean into and which aspects Or you're not going to pay attention to because they're not relevant or helpful.

[00:00:36] Ross: In this episode, I conclude my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon that started way back in season 5. We're continuing our exploration of the processes of act and psychological flexibility.

[00:00:48] Our People Soup ingredient this week is a flexible self concept. We explore the stories we create about ourselves and how problematic it can be when we're rigidly attached to them. We draw upon our own work and our own experience to share plenty of examples and also tips on where to start with exploring your own stories.

[00:01:10] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular Paysupers, thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community. A quick scoot over to the news desk.

[00:01:43] This is the last episode of 2024, so a sincere thank you to all of you who've listened this year. I love getting your feedback and the best present you could give me this Christmas is a review on whatever platform you're on. It will help us reach more people with all the useful [00:02:00] PeopleSoup ingredients.

[00:02:01] So, let's crack on. For now, get a brew on, and have a listen to my chat with Richard McKinnon.

[00:02:13] Richard: So this episode is going to be all about the final skill. In our toolkit that we've been developing all about psychological flexibility and this one. Well, I said it to you before we started recording. This may require more words and we're talking about something quite intangible, our self concept, the things we tell ourselves about ourselves and the skill here is to cultivate as flexible as possible.

[00:02:40] A view of ourselves and try and avoid inflexibly holding on to beliefs or narratives or stories about ourselves. So that's what we're going to focus on today.

[00:02:51] Ross: And let's just explore what, what do we mean by this, this flexible self concept?

[00:02:59] Richard: Maybe I'll start by saying what it's not.

[00:03:01] Ross: Good idea.

[00:03:02] Richard: That's often a good way to clarify new things.

[00:03:04] So when we're talking about cultivating flexibility when it comes to our self concept, it does not mean losing, any sense of our identity or who we are. In the contrary, it sort of means getting a better understanding of our identity and its complexity, but we're not trying to change that or lose aspects of it.

[00:03:27] And we're not trying to change our values to suit a situation, which is another sort of misinterpretation I've come across, a misunderstanding I've come across over the years. It's not changing who we are by developing this, we're changing how we. interact with those stories we tell ourselves. We change how seriously we take them or how strongly we believe them or how much attention we pay to them, how much we let them guide our behavior.

[00:03:57] And we flexibly [00:04:00] almost dip in and out of those narratives rather than treating them like rules. Does that make sense so far?

[00:04:07] Ross: I think so. Because when I think about it, I think of, I think of the word stories and I think of the stories that we create to help us understand and relate to the world.

[00:04:21] And the problem is, is when our stories become inflexible or all consuming. It's like we can't see beyond our stories. We have a lovely set of stories here, and we can't see beyond them. And that can then impact on our experience of the world, but also how we behave, and how we relate to others, how we connect to others, the possibilities we can see.

[00:04:45] So, maybe that could lead us into what it's more about.

[00:04:48] Richard: That idea of stories is a great way of describing it because it helps us later on work on developing that flexibility, treating these like, because if they're just stories, then we can treat them like stories. Whereas the starting point for many of us is these are the facts about me, when in fact a lot of them aren't facts.

[00:05:07] Their beliefs, their, things we've developed and held on to over time, where they're temporary or their labels that maybe don't serve us well anymore, or don't serve us well in every single context we find ourselves in. And we've mentioned that context word a lot in this series, because paying attention to the moment we're in allows us to see the context and understand it, and to take our cues from that context, rather than, these are the rules.

[00:05:36] That I live by, this is who I am, it is unchanging, and I will be this way regardless of the context. And the point you've made about how it can impact our behavior or our connections with others underlines the point it matters. If how we related to these stories didn't matter, it wouldn't feature. In this toolkit, but it does really matter and it [00:06:00] can really limit us, limit our behavioral repertoire, limit our opportunities to grow, limit our, ability to reach our true potential because we might hold ourselves back.

[00:06:13] We might buy into these stories. We might, yeah, interact with other people in a way that doesn't represent who we would like to be, but is just in the defense of a story. And that's all that story is.

[00:06:27] Ross: I love it that you talk about defending our stories, Richard, because how often do we hear in the workplace, people may be describing their roles saying, I'm only the, inserts our job title there.

[00:06:41] That feels like someone's. really tangled up in a story and really bought into their story and it's impacting how they're showing up. And in our preparation for this, you talked about equating our worth as a person with an aspect of our experience. Things like your annual report, what mark do you get?

[00:07:02] What the overall mark do you get? Or something that's more, more familiar to me is feedback. I wonder if you do the same as me, Richard. You run a workshop, you get the feedback, and there's some lovely positive words, really helpful. Words, really appreciating your efforts and, and your input and how you've translated skills to make them applicable and useful.

[00:07:26] And then there might be one or two that are slightly more cutting, like I just did one recently where someone said, I spoke too slowly. And you can hear the laughter in my voice there, but which one is it that I remember? That one, because it actually prodded me a bit and we're always open to feedback and thinking why it might be useful, but I tend to remember the less helpful stuff, the more negative stuff when I receive feedback.

[00:07:55] Richard: And this relates to self concept because the feedback is running contrary [00:08:00] or challenges one of the beliefs you hold about yourself.

[00:08:03] Ross: And

[00:08:05] Richard: I would mirror that completely. I see the feedback and it's great, great, great, great, great, great. And then there's one piece, it could have been improved by, you know, simple, small thing.

[00:08:15] And what I hear is, this was a waste of my time. This is the worst workshop I've ever attended. And this guy must never be allotted for our building again. Because it's that sort of, uh, the beliefs around being good at something and paying attention to detail and delivering well. The feedback is running contrary to that because it's inflexible.

[00:08:36] Ross: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:08:38] Richard: So it could be beliefs we hold about how we are in the world or what we need to do in the world, how we need to be, what we need to have, and how we respond to literal metaphorical or perceived threats to those things can bring out. Kind of the worst in us, you know, beliefs about our, a really common one I discuss in workshops is the beliefs people hold about seniority and their identification with their level of seniority and how they might respond in a less than helpful way if they perceive that their seniority is somehow being challenged, even in the smallest of ways.

[00:09:20] So it's a rigidity of response because, you know, I am a senior manager, therefore this is how it will play out rather than, I wonder what's happening in this scenario and how might I deal with it? You know, they're, they're stories about themselves or what's front and center rather than the context itself.

[00:09:40] Ross: Absolutely, so we're starting to explore why this is problematic, to have a, a rigid self concept. it can oversimplify who we are. It can mean we sort of, we are a self fulfilling prophecy of who we are in that, in that rigidity.

[00:09:56] Richard: When we, when we have those, I must, I can't, I need [00:10:00] to.

[00:10:00] Well, if that plays out in our behavior, then it is a self fulfilling prophecy. That's what turns out to be the case rather than what might be if I had just let it be.

[00:10:10] Ross: it's like we're creating barriers to To almost protect our ego and how we've got to where we've got to say, you took it hierarchies, we've got to where we've got to, we've got a story about how that happened and um, what we've achieved.

[00:10:24] And if we're holding onto that too rigidly, it means we're not open to new sources of information, new data, new external events. And we can really cling to that in a way that's, that's not healthy for us or those we lead or those around us.

[00:10:41] Richard: And I think there's a really important point, maybe to counter what I said or balance what I said a moment ago, because the implication is all is often when I talk about it, it's negative things, people behaving in unhelpful ways, you know, negative behaviors, but actually, something could be very true today about me.

[00:11:00] But if I don't keep that up to date. And in just a couple of years, that could be problematic because I'm, I'm not noticing how that is no longer true of me or relevant to the situation. A very simple example is when I coach graduates, part of what trips them up is this very strong story of I'm new here because at some point you're no longer new.

[00:11:24] But I'm new here protects you from, not knowing everything, not knowing everyone, not knowing all the processes and the rules. And that's fine. But if you keep saying I'm new, you're also not learning those processes, those rules, those people's names. And I'm new here, then becomes something that holds you back and possibly causes friction with those around you because they say, look, you've been here six months.

[00:11:47] You're not here. You're not new anymore. There's five people newer than you. Okay. And that's a very simple and benign one, if we're just not paying attention to the fact that we keep saying that to ourselves and others. It's a very [00:12:00] core element of our workplace identity, but it's out of date. It's not wrong, you know, in a legalistic sense, but it's not fresh.

[00:12:08] It's not up to date and it's definitely not helpful.

[00:12:11] Ross: Oh, I so resonate with this and I resonate with highly experienced leaders doing exactly the same thing coming in and saying, I'm new here. I'm in listening mode. I'm, I'm keen to learn, but there's a point where it tips over and people go, Can you stop saying you're new here because you're here to lead me.

[00:12:32] I know you're, you're still establishing yourself, but it's, it's worn a bit thin. Where it's probably just become habitual for that person and they're, they're clinging on to what's temporary.

[00:12:45] Richard: This is a huge thing in this topic, because if we're quite literal, virtually everything that we could cling on to is temporary

[00:12:54] Ross: in

[00:12:54] Richard: the scheme of things.

[00:12:55] Every job we have will end. Every role we have will change. Every relationship we have will end. Or another, every, every facet of our identity pretty much is open to change development or, or an

[00:13:14] Ross: end. So it's, it's like sometimes we can defend our self image at the cost of our connections and relationships with others.

[00:13:22] Sometimes we can build up our self esteem and then fall really hard if we are classified or determined as, Average.

[00:13:32] Richard: Absolutely. It doesn't even have to be, you're, you know, you're terrible at this. You're just like everyone else, the horror, you know, and the example I often share in, in, uh, workshops is if I was saying to myself, I am the best workplace psychologist in the UK.

[00:13:56] It wouldn't take long before evidence to the [00:14:00] contrary made an appearance in either meeting people or being exposed to new people in my network or something like going to a conference with all my peers. Now I've got two options there. I can either say, I'm nowhere near the best, and this is a growth opportunity.

[00:14:16] Or, I could say, I'm, I'm, I reject what these people are saying because I'm the best, or even, be quite, antagonistic towards people. Because, well, their very existence is a threat to this thing I'm saying about myself. That's a very extreme example. But virtually everyone I've worked with can identify with, Oh, yeah, sometimes when I meet someone, they go into that bucket of they're a threat to something I hold dear about myself.

[00:14:47] And it's hard work to say, Oh, I could learn from them, or we could all learn from them. It's more a case of, I don't like the way they do that because it's not my way. It's not the established way. It's not what I've been saying is the best way. And so it can, it can really lead us to behave in ways that if we were the third person, the third person observing this, we think it's a bit daft.

[00:15:10] That's not helping yourself. And, and that, you know, leads us to another element of this, which is about our ability to shift perspectives and have flexible perspectives on a situation. But when we're really bought into these stories and we're holding onto things tightly, we can only see our perspective and that limits us.

[00:15:28] Ross: Yeah. Yeah. It limits, limits our thinking, our possibilities, but also in engaging with others, it limits our receptiveness to. questions, ideas, innovations, creativity from others as well. hopefully people are getting an insight into why it's useful to explore this topic and why we might like to cultivate this flexible self concept more with intention.

[00:15:54] Richard: There's, there's an element to this as well, which is we don't want to be too restrictive [00:16:00] about this because it's impossible for us to about our entire identity in one go. So we do cherry pick from it. And I think it's just interesting to note, what do we cherry pick when we're talking about ourselves?

[00:16:12] What is it we want other people to know? That can give you an insight into what you're really paying attention to in your own self concept. But it's also important to note that, you know, sometimes that's necessary in order to make a point. And sometimes the go to things we pay attention to and emphasize are almost an excuse for behaviour.

[00:16:33] So one that I encountered very early in my career, a lot, you know, I was giving lots of feedback of personality questionnaires to senior professionals as part of, say, a leadership program or something. And that were a 360 degree feedback report and a fallback from many of these, usually men, was I wear my heart on my sleeve.

[00:16:58] That's who I am, rather than, oh, that feedback about me losing my temper is something I could pay attention to, because this buying into, I'm the kind of person who, that's often shorthand for, this is something I'm not really willing to change, or, or, or to navigate in an open way. You need to accept it.

[00:17:17] rather than, well that's my behavior and I could control that, I could change that. So that's often a, um, a way that people get their heads around this. What's the shorthand for you describing yourself to others? A lot of that's in your control and you can decide how to bring that to life. Or not. And so when we talk about, present moment awareness, you know, way, way back at the beginning of this series, being present in the moment, this is for me, the bit that goes hand in hand with that, which aspects of you are you going to bring to life now that you know, the moment you're in, how you're paying attention to now, so what does that tell you about how to navigate this, which aspects of your identity are you going to [00:18:00] use or lean into and which aspects Or you're not going to pay attention to because they're not relevant or helpful.

[00:18:06] Ross: Beautifully put, Richard, thank you. And I really identify with, uh, giving psychometric feedback or 360 feedback. And, and probably almost exclusively males. And I don't get the heart on the sleeve. I get more, this is just the way I am. I say things like they are, I speak truth to power. I am, I'm down to earth and no willingness to change.

[00:18:36] And at, at, at times when they get 360 feedback and it's less favorable. The attitude is, I know who said that. I'm gonna hunt them down. I exaggerate, but I'm gonna, well. It almost feels like I'm going to hunt them down and punish them and their family and their pets.

[00:18:57] Richard: Because it's defense, defense, defense.

[00:18:59] Rather than I wonder what point they're making here, I wonder what I can do with this feedback. And part of this And I think these examples really help people understand this part of this, the way I explain it is it, you are saying this feedback equals me, not this feedback refers to an element of me or a skill I could hone or an adjustment I could make.

[00:19:28] So we're kind of going good person, bad person. Yeah. Um, and, and it's a little bit like I'm successful. I'm not, I'm productive. I'm not, I'm popular. I'm not. it has implications for our behavior. So if we're able to take the feedback and say, That's something for me to work on, and I'm a worthwhile member of the team, and I'm good at these things, and even outside of work, I've got strengths.

[00:19:55] It's not about balancing, but it's acknowledging that is something for me to work on, and there's [00:20:00] a lot more to me, rather than that feedback equals bad me, and I don't like that, because who would like that? Who would like to be told you're a bad person? But we very rarely get told we're bad people. We get feedback about specifics and that gets lost in this pro, anti, yes, no binary thinking about ourselves.

[00:20:22] Ross: Yeah, absolutely. exploring this, this flexible self concept, can help us appreciate how that context is influencing our behavior. It helps us consider new evidence and data that we're receiving, rather than trying to seek evidence and cram it into our existing belief, with this crowbar and realize it's not fitting.

[00:20:44] It's like putting on shoes that are two sizes too small. Rather than trying to cram new evidence and data into that, we can just be open and consider new evidence and data and spot when we might, we talked about this before, spot when we might be creating those self fulfilling prophecies and really, which is essential for us all in the workplace, begin to appreciate more the perspectives of other people.

[00:21:09] Richard: It goes hand in hand with everything we've been talking about before, using what the present moment gives us, diffusing from unhelpful thoughts in that moment, persisting through any discomfort in that situation and moving in the direction of our values, flexibly, rather than my behavior is a function of these rules.

[00:21:33] About me, my place in the world, how the world works, you know, very simplified, maybe oversimplified and not always helpful. And the problem with it is, and this, this is almost a hand up in every workshop I've ever run. Some of these things that we say to ourselves are helpful. Yes, sometimes in some contexts.

[00:21:55] That's flexibility rather than they're always correct. That's [00:22:00] a rule. So there's a difference there. Sometimes I am in charge. I'm setting the direction is totally appropriate when you are leading the meeting, but to walk through life saying I am in charge is unhelpful if you're treating it like a rule and responding unhelpfully to everyone you think is challenging your seniority or your control.

[00:22:26] Ross: it just so resonates with me when when perhaps when I speak to leaders and they think they need to know the detail of everything that goes on in their team and they need to be an expert in every area. And as teams expand and they get more senior. It's impossible. It's impossible. So that's okay.

[00:22:46] You don't need to, to do a course in X or Y. You've got people to rely on and you can be a better leader by demonstrating that you trust in them and you can learn as you go along is my, my view on that.

[00:23:01] Richard: So many ways we can examine this. Lots and lots of different perspectives. It is, I mean, it's core to who we are.

[00:23:07] Very, very, very core. The skill here. To keep it really nice and simple is, is in part noticing what we're buying into and just questioning it a little bit. It's helpfulness, you know, is this helping me be the kind of person I want to be in these different situations to keep emphasizing this aspect of me.

[00:23:30] Ross: And I think this is part of our role in, in one to one work, but also in teams. But let's think about how we help our clients develop this skill. How do you approach it with yours?

[00:23:42] Richard: I use the analogy of stories all the time because people get that. And, and it takes the weight out of them a lot of the time.

[00:23:50] I try and approach identity and self concept from multiple different perspectives. So for example, asking people, I, I did this in a workshop just last week [00:24:00] here in London. I have to say that the beginning, I think the group found this quite challenging, but by the end they went, Oh, okay. Light bulb moment.

[00:24:07] I know what you're getting at, but you know, something that's true about you, something that is unchanging about you. Something that has changed about you, something that you wish were true about you. So that actually, the things I say when describing myself, sometimes they're facts, sometimes opinions, sometimes they're not true anymore.

[00:24:30] You know, Sometimes there are things I wish I was more like, but I'm not always that way. So in fact, there's probably lots of exceptions to that belief, if I were to be honest with myself. And so it depends. What are we trying to say about ourselves? Are we in a court of law? Usually we're not. And so therefore, most of these, these things we believe about ourselves are open to discussion.

[00:24:56] You know, one end we've got my birthplace was there. I have a piece of paper to prove it. Absolutely. Because sometimes you need that. But most of the time when we're at work, when we're navigating life, it's not about facts about us. It's about our qualities. It's about our skills, our knowledge, our relationships, how we relate to the world.

[00:25:20] And that stuff is very dynamic. And it's always changing. And a visual metaphor I use a lot is chainmail, you know, like a knight of old woodware, you know, that's made up of lots and lots of tiny bits, but together they form this article. But that's like our identity. It's made up of so many small things rather than one thing.

[00:25:46] And that's an appreciation of the complexity of our identity. Thinking about all the things I am. All the things I'm not, all the things I'd like to be. And then recognizing that no one of those things equals who I am. I mean, that's easy [00:26:00] to say, but often that's what we do. I am my job. I am this project. I am the last piece of feedback.

[00:26:07] I am this relationship. And that limits us to one tiny part of our identity. So primarily for me, it's, it's exploration. and then helping people notice how it appears in their self talk. So that they can diffuse from that when it might come between them and doing something helpful for themselves. Are you telling yourself a story to prevent yourself from doing this?

[00:26:33] Or are you telling yourself a story to justify? Doing this rather than are you paying attention to now?

[00:26:40] Ross: Wow. Are you paying attention to now? I love that because I think that's so Critical to become this uber noticer of our words and the words that we speak But also the words just floating around there inside our heads.

[00:26:56] I like to get clients to to really become more aware of their, their words and their patterns, not just to notice them, but to recognize the impact of those words on our, on their behavior and my behavior. So patterns like I am, patterns like I never, I can't, I must, I always, that's a good one. I always do this, or I always find that people like this irritate me.

[00:27:29] Or, I'm just the one I already mentioned, I'm just dot dot dot, insert job title there. The aim is that between us, it almost becomes a bit playful between me and a client sometimes, is getting them to hear their own words, reflecting them back sometimes, but also then they start to catch themselves. And start to realize the impact of these patterns on, on their behavior and what they do next.

[00:27:57] would you say it's more of a challenge to [00:28:00] articulate this to clients, to support them in cultivating this skill? So it depends or is that just a story? I have Rich ,

[00:28:08] Richard: you know what, sometimes I'll, I'll focus on coaching. Sometimes flexible self-concept isn't explicitly discussed at all.

[00:28:17] I don't point at it as a thing. Mm-hmm. But we'll cover off the unhelpful aspects of it through learning those diffusion skills. Because in a sense, these stories are just a kind of thought. Mm-hmm. And it matters more to me that the client in front of me is saying, I noticed that thought again. I noticed it.

[00:28:38] I didn't let it stop me picking up the phone. Rather than me going, was not self concept or was that, you know, a passing thought that's just complex and it doesn't need to be done. But if you were just to start with, and I have seen some presentations and videos over the years when people start with, you know, the unchanging.

[00:28:57] I go, that's lost this person immediately. You know, they, they want to deal with their procrastination. They don't want a metaphysical lecture on identity, but at the same time, we can make it really practical by just focusing on you keep saying this to yourself about yourself. How helpful is that? We don't need to talk about self concept at all.

[00:29:22] Ross: Absolutely agree. So, so what can get in the way of cultivating this flexible self concept.

[00:29:29] Richard: The stuff I really look out for, are those the over identification with a very nebulous and hard to pin down concept like success or productive, because they can have an unhelpful impact on behavior by making us want to do more, to be more.

[00:29:46] So just like very poor goal setting, You know, how will you know when you're healthy? Well, how will you know when you're successful? You're either peddling really hard to get there, or you're fighting really hard to retain it, whatever it is. [00:30:00] So, none of us, ideally, ought to be saying, I am this temporary thing, or I am not this temporary thing, and treating it like a goal.

[00:30:09] Because how will you know when you've got there? and, and continually reinforcing views of yourself that are oversimplified. Now, there's so many reasons and so many places this will have come from in your developmental journey. But the point is, if you keep reinforcing it to yourself, you buy into it and it becomes fact.

[00:30:29] Rather than opinion and that fact then guide your behavior they're like You know rocks that will try not to walk on there, you know Consistently with us rather than I used to be like that, but I've changed or I've learned this skill to help me navigate that

[00:30:47] Ross: Yeah, it's like it makes me think of exam results We're taught this from a young age and possibly even a younger age now, I don't understand the school system now.

[00:30:58] But um, those externally sourced labels, you're getting a rating, you're getting a grade, you're getting an evaluation. And you can continue just to keep applying those throughout life, your annual report. And we can also compare ourselves with each other.

[00:31:14] Richard: Absolutely.

[00:31:15] Ross: Which I think becomes more problematic.

[00:31:17] Now we have more access to social media. And other people who carefully curate their existence, and we can find ourselves lacking.

[00:31:26] Richard: Well, what are we comparing? I think that's the most important question. We're not comparing like for like, and that leads us to feel less.

[00:31:33] Ross: Yeah, our egos can get in the way. our need for control.

[00:31:38] Sometimes we think the answer is in control, when actually we are In a workplace situation, in a team, or the leader of a team, we're shutting down innovation, ideas, everything by just closing down that input from others and perspectives of others. And the same when we think we are right, that needs to be right, perhaps linked [00:32:00] to our position in the hierarchy.

[00:32:02] So there's lots of things to watch out for.

[00:32:05] Richard: Humans all have this. So, it is about, this is a non negotiable, in a sense, we've got a mind, an element of our mind is telling us about ourselves. And we can either agree, buy into it, question it, or just set it to one side while we do what's necessary or what's valued.

[00:32:27] Ross: Shall we share how we've put this into practice ourselves? I think, I think I might be retracing a path, but shall we just reflect on that, Richard? I

[00:32:35] Richard: thought about this because we've tried to do this for each of these episodes, to be transparent. Now this isn't, I am the, you know, the bar to reach, but more to be, to be transparent.

[00:32:45] And, um, the aspect of me, which really relates to this is, is the fact that I'm, I'm a real people pleaser. I always have been. And so feedback is super tough. and it's been one of the best things, practicing these skills in my own life, has been to work hard at looking at the feedback and trying to take specifics from it about what can be done with that feedback, rather than, well, that's it, they hate me, or I'm no good.

[00:33:16] And I'll have to sit with being no good for an appropriate amount of time, like being in mourning until I can then show my face in public again. And that's one of the toughest things for me to grapple with. But incidentally, I've also noticed. In, in the last, say, 10 years, and I did have a very strong over identification with the label psychologist.

[00:33:37] And there was a lot of, well, that's what I should be doing because that's what psychologists do is how I should be showing up rather than I'm a human and it's just a job and it's not permanent either. I might not have it in future. So let me focus on the stuff that's always there that I want to bring to life rather than be curtailed by an arbitrary job title.[00:34:00]

[00:34:00] Two, two from me that I think illustrate how I'm using it.

[00:34:04] Ross: Yeah, I really relate to the people pleaser, which can lead me to over promise. If I'm say, talking to a client, we've agreed, we've agreed a contract, a scope for the work. I can be very sensitive to clients words thinking, perhaps I'm not enough.

[00:34:21] If they're, if they're exploring a new facet that we haven't covered in their contracting, and they're, they're saying, I wonder if that would be useful. And then I find. I used to find myself going, Oh, I could do that as well if you want. Because I got this quite fragile

[00:34:36] story that, that I'm not good enough for this client. It's just a fluke that I've got this gig.

[00:34:42] Richard: Gotta keep them happy. Gotta say yes. Otherwise,

[00:34:46] Ross: yeah. So, I've learnt, I've been practising this and I'm catching my own stories. in flight sometimes, but also sometimes in preparation for meetings like that, when I know that I might go, Oh, I'll do that as well.

[00:34:59] Because knowing that, that what I say, Oh, I'll do that as well. It might take me another day's work. So it's catching my stories and knowing that realization can be quite painful and uncomfortable and being with it, being aware of my words, and sometimes just zipping it just. noticing that temptation to say, Oh, I could do that.

[00:35:21] And then coming off the call thinking, Oh, for the love of God, what did I say that for? More often zipping it and knowing that there's a version of me that transcends all my stories. That, that's bigger than those and my stories are just there as floating across that.

[00:35:39] So for those listening, how can we give practical tips to make a start on this, Richard? I

[00:35:48] Richard: think stories is a great place. Paying a little bit more attention to your inner narrative and notice, first of all, the sheer number of stories you tell [00:36:00] yourself about yourself. The I am, I can't, I can, I must phrases.

[00:36:04] Now we're not, this isn't about removing them from your vocabulary because you'll quickly realize that's not possible. How much are you buying into them? How much are they guiding or shutting down your behavior? So watching out for the stories is a really, uh, really good starting point. Something I do with groups, uh, is to get them to reflect on how they're introducing themselves to people for the first time.

[00:36:28] Because there's not a right or a wrong in that, but we want to make a good first impression. So what is it we're trying to tell other people about ourselves? And how much of that is factual opinion? Maybe out of date. And it gives you an in to asking yourself about all the other things. Conversely, what is it you don't tell other people that's true about you?

[00:36:52] We don't introduce ourselves by saying, I'm a monster in the morning until I've had some coffee. I tend to leave things to the last minute. and I, and I never tip in restaurants. No one would introduce themselves that way. I imagine we, we want to put, you know, a good impression forward, but how many times do we end up doing this and then do we really believe that stuff or do we allow it to, I got this feedback on a workshop just to.

[00:37:19] A few short weeks ago, I consistently used the same example when talking about, guiding people through a procrastination loop. I use my own example about how I deal with bureaucratic paperwork form filling, and they pointed out to me, you keep saying, I'm no good with paperwork. I'm terrible when it comes to bureaucracy.

[00:37:38] Is that not what you're talking about here? You're you, the stories you're telling yourself, stop me in my tracks. I thought, yeah, you know what? That, that is the root of a lot of the problems I have with form filling because I see it and the first thing I say is, I'm no good at this. Rather than, hold on, it's in my first language, I can get the answers to these questions.

[00:37:57] It can be done, which is much more, [00:38:00] you know, rational about it. So this is just to share the point that we all can learn more about our self concept at any time. It's not a job done exercise because we're continually changing it. So is the world out there. Love it. What about you?

[00:38:18] Ross: Yeah, I'd encourage our listeners and viewers to become explorers of their, their self concept. To be curious and kind to themselves, because sometimes the things we find, sometimes those patterns we start to spot might be uncomfortable, might be disappointing. There are all sorts of emotions that can show up.

[00:38:40] But, I sometimes say to clients, consider that our mind is, I've referenced the, that, that my, there's a version of me that transcends my stories. I think if we imagine our minds to be like the vast sky, and it makes me think of the vast sky that you sometimes post from your apartment, Richard, that vast panorama.

[00:39:02] It makes me think of the vast skies around me in Andalusia where. That there's just sometimes just like a plane, a Spanish plane, and it just feels so huge and vast, and that's what our minds are like. One moment they're vast and clear, then the next moment the storm clouds can gather. And those storm clouds are like some of our stories.

[00:39:26] And can we still zoom out to see the whole vast sky, rather than just focus in on these troublesome clouds that look dark and foreboding. And if we can become more aware of those stories, we can appreciate how they impact on our behavior, the way we show up. I know my stories can impact on my capacity to connect with other people.

[00:39:49] I know my stories can impact on my capacity to explore different possibilities. I can be some become so rigid in my thinking, I don't see or appreciate [00:40:00] alternative solutions or approaches. So it's well worth doing.

[00:40:05] Richard: It really is. We've left this to last, but it doesn't mean it's the least important element.

[00:40:11] of this skill set. But I do think it's made easier once we have an understanding of the other skills and the way minds operate, you know, in simple terms. So there's no perfect way of doing this, but I love the curiosity you mentioned and the compassion you mentioned, because once you start scratching the surface, you do find things you don't like that you've maybe been saying to yourself or to others.

[00:40:37] So yeah, the compassion there I think is, is really important.

[00:40:41] Ross: that's it, folks. My chat with Richard on a flexible self concept in the bag. I'll create a collection of all the episodes in this series and put it in the show notes. And you'll find those show notes at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:41:02] If you like this episode, we'd love it. If you told us why. you can email me at people soup dot pod@gmail.com on Twitter. Where at Ross MCO on Instagram. People soup. And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod.

[00:41:19] You can help me reach more people with the special people, soup, ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you, Look after yourselves, pea soupers, I hope you enjoy your festive season, whatever that means for you, and bye for now,

[00:41:43] Richard: and so much has happened since we last spoke. So, um, I felt like we had to have a little bit of a catch up before we started recording.

[00:41:51] Ross: Yes. Which was, which was heartwarming to bring us back to the, question.

[00:41:57] What are we going to cover in this [00:42:00] episode?