Assalamualaikum, family. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast presented by Bayan On Demand. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin. And since this is our first episode, allow me a moment to introduce myself and to let you know what you can expect on this podcast. So, first of all, I've served as the Imam of Masjid Al Taqwa here in Chicago since 2013. I'm the founder of the Chicago Black Muslim History Tour. I'm also the former nightly host and producer of Radio Islam. It was a Sound Vision production initiated by Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid. And I'm also a proud graduate of Bayan Islamic Graduate School with a Master of Divinity and Islamic Chaplaincy. And I'm currently pursuing my Doctorate of Ministry. As a Muhammad Ali scholar, I've experienced firsthand the blessings of Bayan's mission, which is to provide a world class, nonsectarian Islamic education that empowers leaders to serve their communities. That said, over 70 percent of Bayan's students receive support through the Muhammad Ali scholarship, which makes this transformative education, accessible, particularly to those who have already demonstrated their commitment to serving their communities. Now, here on the American Muslim podcast, you will hear inspiring stories of men and women rising to the challenge of leadership of service who have served their communities in remarkable ways and continue to serve them. And you will also hear insights from some of the brightest minds teaching at Bayhad. Unpacking the implications of their subject matter of the growing Muslim presence in our rapidly diversifying society. Our goal here is for you to leave each episode inspired, informed, and inshallah, with God's permission as a supporter of the work of Bayan Islamic Graduate School. And since this is the American Muslim podcast. I can't think of a more quintessentially American art form than jazz to serve as the introduction to this medley of contributions, to this confidence, to sound, to be, and to think differently. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast. All right, family, as we launch the first episode of the American Muslim Podcast, it is only fitting to begin with Dr. Jihad Turk, the founding president of Bayan Islamic Graduate School. In this episode, we will explore the experiences that shaped him, his motivations for serving, and the journey that impactful role. So please enjoy the conversation. As salamu alaykum, Dr. Jahed. It is great to have you on to kick off the American Muslim Podcast presented by Bayan On Demand. When I think about Bayan Islamic Graduate School, uh, you being the founding president, the most logical place to start is to get a bit of info about the origin story. How did you get on this path to this particular endeavor? Where did it all start?

Yeah, well, it wasn't a straight line. I'll tell you that much. Uh, you know, I, you know, I started, you know, my mom's a Caucasian American Christian. My dad is an immigrant from Jerusalem. He immigrated to the States in the 50s and met my mom, got married, moved to Arizona where I was born and raised. You know, neither one graduated college. And so, you know, I asked my father what I should study in college. I was a good student honor student, all of that near the top of my class in high school and And, uh, I said, Bob, what should I study in college? He said, son, it doesn't matter what you study in college. You're Palestinian. You're going to go into business. So, uh, you know, he, he wasn't much help and I was good in math and science. So I started out engineering track, but you know, also he used to take me to the mosque growing up and there wasn't a mosque in Phoenix, uh, in the seventies and eighties. And so we, he just got together with a few other families and. They ended up purchasing a house and we would go and use that house as the mosque, but, you know, primarily we go there for for Sunday school. And, uh, let's just say that my experience in Sunday school wasn't quite satisfying in terms of giving me as a perspective on Islam that was meaningful and and filled with a sense of purpose and so I. I still had questions. Uh, it was, you know, the Sunday school was taught by, you know, one of the uncles, none of whom were trained in Islamic, uh, studies at all. And they were sincere and you gotta appreciate their effort, but they just weren't very, um, they weren't very effective in, in communicating the beauty of the, of the faith. But nonetheless, one of the things my father did in addition to, uh, dragging me to the mosque every Sunday was, uh, Every summer he would take me to a youth camp, a Muslim youth camp. There was one called, uh, appropriately enough, the Muslim youth camp. Uh, we, we affectionately called it the Qurayshi camp. And it was established by one of our current faculty members parents, uh, Asfa Qureshi's parents, Marhoub, uh, uncle and Iffat, auntie, uh, back in 1962. And my father actually knew that couple back then and was there at the first, the first year's camp, from what I understand. And, uh, even though he moved to Arizona in the, in the late 60s, he kept going back to this California based camp. And so I, I, I mentioned that only to say that. It was through the incredible people who attended that camp and then later on. High school Mina, which was a summer, which was a winter leadership training camp that my dad sent me to as well that I met some scholars some other youth my age that inspired me to learn more about the faith. And so when I started out engineering track because I didn't listen to my dad about my, my subject major. Um, you know, I, I, I tried taking elective classes about Islam because I wanted to fill in that gap and, you know, was intrigued to learn more. But I just wasn't satisfied with what I found there. And long story short, I ended up meeting somebody who had studied abroad at the Islamic University of Medina, and said, you know, even though I didn't grow up speaking Arabic, I wanted to be able to access. The Koran in its original language and other Islamic sources so that I can learn more about what I was intrigued about with the Islamic faith. And so I applied and got the scholarship right after my freshman year during the summer of my sophomore year. Two weeks after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in the run up to the first Gulf War, so 1990. August of 1990 is when I got the acceptance letter and so I. withdrew from, from, from my, uh, from my university, uh, at that time, Arizona State University, and went abroad and did a couple of years at the Islamic University of Medina. Uh, my cousins were in the U. S. military, were there on a different mission. Uh, I was there on a, on a spiritual one, and, and I figured out, you know, not only did I connect to the Quran and begin to understand it in its original language, but found a beauty, uh, Um, what I was looking for, and so I decided, you know what, I want to come back and switch majors and become an Islamic studies major and become a professor and offer the courses that I wanted to take as an undergraduate.

So how long were you at the University of Medina? I was there

for, you know, two academic years. Um, yeah, enough. And I went there intentionally to learn Arabic. I didn't want to go and I wanted to study the approach to Islam that was predominant, uh, in Saudi Arabia in general and the Islamic University of Medina in particular, but I wanted to access the sources and understand the Arabic language so that I can continue my journey of learning directly without the intermediary of, uh, of somebody, uh, who could interpret the text for me, although, you know, that continues to be the case with teachers, but I didn't want to be dependent, uh, linguistically on, on someone else.

Um, um. So you mentioned that your experience in the masjid growing up, that it wasn't necessarily an engaging one or one that inspired you, but that you did find some sense of meaning in those social gatherings, the camps. Now, was it more curiosity that was stoked in those gatherings or were you beginning to see the beauty of Islam in those settings?

Um, I'm going to get a little bit vulnerable here. My, my parents, when I was in high school, uh, began going through a divorce. And so even though I was hitting all cylinders as a high schooler, uh, on a roll, you know, the top of my class, I was, uh, good in sports, uh, you know, lettered in, in, in a number of sports. Uh, I was a, you know, I, I was homecoming king of my high of my senior year of high school. So, you know, life was good, you know, in terms of, it's all been downhill since then, but life was good, you know, in terms of high school, uh, achievements and. I found it very empty at the same time, unfulfilling, because of the home environment in which there was the instability. And so instead of turning to drugs or alcohol or womanizing or, you know, what I saw everyone else doing, because there weren't any, you know, hardly any other Muslims around me at that time in Phoenix. And, you know, instead of doing the typical thing that high schoolers do, um, it also didn't seem like, they seemed like they were grasping at straws and and trying to have a sense of. Significance, but it was really just an illusion. And so I had gone to these camps and I met some people there, some scholars and some people who seem to, to have a connection to something higher that I wanted. And so I thought, okay, there's there, maybe there's some, there's some there, there with this religion thing and, uh, Islam in particular. And so let me, let me look more into that.

You mentioned immersing yourself in the language as a means of access. Uh, a point that would certainly resonate with many students of knowledge. How has your personal journey influenced your approach to designing a system that helps others find similar answers and make those meaningful connections for themselves?

You know, there's an Arabic saying, you know, knowledge is something that you pursue, right? You travel to it. And, uh, you know, I would say that there was a, um. Uh, building of character through the rigors of having to study abroad and deal with the inefficient administration of places like the Islamic University of Medina. And, you know, I'm being generous by saying just the inefficiencies of the administration. It was, it was a nightmare to deal with. I mean, there was like a 90 plus percent turnover rate for Western students just because it was so inhospitable. It For, uh, people coming from the West in terms of how they organize themselves and, you know, acclimated folks to study there and just the environment. It was a very harsh environment, but, you know, I went there and I got what I was aiming to, uh, to, to obtain, which was the Arabic language, but I, you know, I, um, I don't recommend other people to go and study there because I, I saw the indoctrination program for the particular approach, That was, um, that that was the approach of the university and it, you know, the sort of the Wahhabi approach can be very compelling when you don't have any other perspective. And so people who are just coming with, you know, bright eyed and bushy tailed and a sincerity, uh, easily, you know, got sucked into that way of approaching Islam, which I don't believe is the authentic. Uh, way that our beloved prophet would, uh, presented, uh, had presented in the past and presented in today's day and age. And so, yeah, I, what a part of my project that I'm in undertaking now is to, you know, having been abroad and, uh, obtain some, some knowledge to figure out ways that knowledge can be disseminated within the cultural context of the United States and skipping over it. Some of the unnecessary, unnecessary harshness that one might, um, experience in traveling anywhere abroad, particularly Medina, but it could be anywhere, uh, where there's a lot of, uh, there are a lot of challenges.

So when we think about some of the challenges associated with the pursuit of knowledge, this is a pursuit that should ideally produce a transformation in character and outlook. Do you think that the product of knowledge, which we could label personal growth and, and also the purification of intention, is sometimes overlooked with more focus placed on enduring inefficient bureaucracies and other hurdles? Do you see Bayen as offering a solution by removing such barriers, uh, suggesting that These obstacles are not necessarily required components of the educational process.

I, I think the hardship that one should endure in pursuing knowledge, uh, you know, involves, uh, sleepless nights of, you know, reading, uh, long tracks and, you know, uh, scholarly, uh, Uh, texts. Uh, I think it's, you know, the, the challenge of acquiring Arabic if you don't have that as your, uh, native language. Uh, I think there are a lot of hardships, and there is a metaphorical journey that you take to the knowledge, even if not a physical one, through your study at a place like Bayan, because you, you, you do have to forego sort of, You know, opportunity costs right what you could be doing otherwise with your time and your family or earning money or doing other things. So I still think that there is a rigor, there is a hardship, there is a character, uh, development, uh, element to pursuing knowledge at a place like Bayan that doesn't require one face, um, a harsh environment like the Islamic University of Medina, where, you know, you I remember they used to not allow students to advocate for one another, right? It created this kind of a selfishness, so it's building the wrong kind of character. I remember that, you know, we would have the Qureta Qur'an and Qureta Dawah and all of these different colleges. When they got let out on break, all of the students would crush into the Into the snack bar area and start yelling over each other to, you know, to, to the poor guy behind the counter who, you know, they didn't have lines. They weren't, it wasn't orderly. So, you know, if you shouted the loudest, you kind of got your, you know, tea with milk and biscuits, but at the expense of your brother. And, you know, it was that kind of, Um, environment that I don't think built good character taught you selfishness. And so it was kind of sad to see that at an Islamic university, that kind of, uh, of culture surrounding, um, you know, how students, uh, interacted with another and how they, um, survived in, in, in a. In a cutthroat environment and where it wasn't that everyone was guaranteed everything but the one who shouted the loudest or who stepped on their brother, uh, maybe got what they needed in the other to the, at the expense of the other person I remember when I was preparing for Hajj, the end of my first year. This is in 1991. One of my classmates pulled me aside and he said look. When you're. When you're making Hajj, there's a possibility of of kissing the Blackstone. It's not a requirement, but if you decide to do it, you will either be Abdu or Abdullah. You'll either be the servant of God who was striking out at somebody else or being struck by somebody else. He said, don't be the, don't be the former. If you are gonna do it. Be the be the latter. Even though that was in general for Hajj, it kind of almost seemed like the. cultural environment in, in Medina at the same time, where you're, you know, you're either, uh, um, literally, you know, uh, metaphorically stepping on your brother or being stepped on. And, uh, I think that there's a better environment that we can create here of support for students who are dedicating themselves to not only seeking knowledge, but of serving the community.

So, there are a number of Islamic seminaries and educational efforts that are, that are popping up. Uh, some accredited, many that aren't. But in this educational marketplace, what do you feel makes the Bayan experience and approach unique?

Well, I, I would say that when, you know, I was serving as an Imam, um, of LA's oldest and largest mosque in, uh, from 2005 until 2012. And it was during that time that, that we created Bayan. Um, and it wasn't by design. You asked me how we got there. I said, it was a circuitous route. It wasn't by, it wasn't by design. I mean, I was doing my PhD in Islamic studies at UCLA, serving as the Imam and, you know, married with a couple of kids, life was busy. But good. And I was also teaching at UCLA, teaching Islamic law at a law school, teaching at USC. And the opportunity came for us to create a graduate school to partner with a Christian seminary, 130 year old Christian seminary at the time in Claremont, California. And to do so with accreditation right from the beginning. And so. In response to that opportunity, I said, well, the need is there, but what the need is, the need is, um, differs from the, what's, what's being offered abroad. Having studied abroad myself as, as I just, as we just spoke about, one of the things that you'll notice from studying abroad is that the whole approach to knowledge is just rote memory. Uh, there isn't really, uh, Um, leadership training, and there isn't really, uh, you know, the skill sets that you needed to lead a community in the West are very different than you would need to lead a community in or to be an imam somewhere in the East or in the Middle East. Because mosques in the West are 501c3 not for profits for the most part. They do fundraising, they put on programming, they're not just the five daily prayers and a Jummah Khutbah. So, you know, it's very, uh, it's very specific. And so I said, you know, what we need is, is an institution that does the three things, these following three things very well. Number one is that it provides you with a grounding in the tradition, the Qur'an and the Sunnah, et cetera, and the different scholar, scholarly traditions within Islam, Islamic theology and philosophy and Arabic and history, et cetera, et cetera. Islamic law and the second thing it needs to offer is a relevant perspective on how to understand those traditional subjects. Through the lens of the contemporary world in which we live, because we have to be focused on presenting that knowledge in a way that's meaningful and relevant to young people. Because if we're not doing that, then we're not succeeding. And in order to do that, the third thing we need is Is a professionalization that comes from people who are doing this full time at the highest level. So we thought we said let's tap into the cadre of Muslim faculty members who who work full time in in in institutions of higher learning elite institutions of higher learning like a Yale or a Stanford or Berkeley or Duke or Georgetown and identify Muslim scholars who are leading institutions Uh, scholars in their fields and have them, uh, teach the courses, uh, that they're leading experts in to this, you know, the next generation of Muslim leaders and scholars so that they can, uh, help, uh, help those individuals bring their respective communities to a position of excellence. And, and there's one other thing, a fourth thing, if you, if I may. And that is that we wanted to be a quintessentially an American Muslim institution. And so we wanted to make sure that our student body, our faculty, our trustees reflected the diversity of who we are as a community. I didn't want to be focused specifically on just Arab immigrants or into Pakistani immigrants, um, or, you know, just the African American community, but rather a good balance between, between those three primary communities, plus everybody else. And so. That's what we've, uh, you know, we've endeavored to, to, um, strive for since our inception.

Hmm. Could you share more about how BAYAN has created access for students and community leaders across the country? You mentioned bringing in leading scholars from elite universities to join the faculty, but I'd like to dive a bit deeper into the student body. How important was it for you in taking on this mission? To open doors for people who are already serving or aspiring to serve their communities. Um, uh, specifically through the initiative of the Muhammad Ali Scholarship. Could you talk about the impact of this scholarship and how it has helped to make education more accessible to those who are committed to serving their communities?

Well, we, we bring on, as I indicated just a moment ago, really top tier faculty. And although it is cost effective, um, by not having to bring on as sort of in house scholars, we have a few that are full time with us, but of the 60 faculty that we have, uh, overwhelming majority are visiting what we call visiting faculty. Those are individuals that work. Um, as oftentimes tenured, even chairs of Islamic studies at their respective institutions. So they have their base salary there, their benefits. That's where they're, that's where they're, they're set up. What we do is we, uh, pay them to teach what's called an over overload where they teach in addition to their full time load at their university, usually two classes every semester. We'll have them teach a third class at Bayan every year or every two years, depending on how often they teach with us. And, uh, we pay them, uh, well to come out and teach that class. We fly them out, we put them up. So it does cost, but it's, uh, it's not as expensive as it would be. Had we, uh, had to compete with these institutions that, uh, are offering great salary and benefits, et cetera, as well as the prestige. So we, we, we, we nonetheless have an overhead and. Our tuition is not cheap. It's about 1, 000, just over 1, 000 a unit, which is about 25, 000 a year. Uh, so if you're getting a two year master's degree or a three year, uh, master's degrees, we have an MA that's two years and a master's of divinity that's three years. We're talking between 50, 000 each, uh, each tuition, and, uh, for someone who's making, uh, sometimes 40, 000 a year in serving the community and sometimes even less than that. Uh, we figured it would be very challenging for folks to afford that tuition, but unlike Zaytuna, which is, you know, a liberal arts undergraduate, um, university, we're, uh, you know, the graduates of Zaytuna go on to medical school or business school, maybe some small percentage go on to serve busy mams. We wanted to almost serve like a professional degree where we're. Where we are producing leaders that are directly serving full time their communities as imams, as youth directors, as Islamic school teachers and principals, as chaplains in different institutions, as executive directors of Islamic not for profits. And so we knew that those institutions are oftentimes struggling. That they don't have the visionary leadership to invest in the professional development to the tune of 25, 000 a year of their teachers and imams and youth directors on top of their salary. So our, we recognize that the students are going to need scholarships. And so I happen to be blessed to know the champ, Muhammad Ali, and was asked to be a witness on his Islamic will back in. Early 2000s, I think 2003 or 2004, something like that. And when he, uh, when he passed, I asked his wife of 30 years, Lani Ali, to, uh, to join our advisory board and to gift us the naming rights to establish a scholarship in his honor. But don't give us a penny. Just give us the naming rights so that we can Carry on his Islamic legacy and our commitment was primarily to raise the money from communities that were affluent. Uh, to, um, pay into a scholarship fund that could make sure that those who are working full time and underserved communities to make sure that they can, uh, they could, uh, afford to attend BAM with either a full tuition scholarship or, you know, um, a large percentage of their, of their scholar, of their tuition being covered by the scholarship. And, um, so we launched that in 2017, we announced it and launched it in the fall of that year. And today we've awarded over four and a half million dollars in scholarship funds to many dozens of students who are doing incredible work across the country. And Lonnie, when, when I did a zoom meeting with her and just a handful of the recipients, it was a very moving, uh, event that brought her to tears at the end and, uh, and many others. So it's, uh, it's a beautiful thing to, to, to just witness and be part of.

Hmm. Mashallah. Very interesting. So, your approach to, uh, and your utilization of visiting faculty, uh, at BAN, it demonstrates a, a deal of creativity and, and outside of the box thinking. Uh, what are some of the other innovations that BAN is currently employing or, or plans to implement in the future?

Uh, there are two other, two other things that come to mind. Uh, you know, we're, we're a quintessentially American Muslim institution, and as my mentor, the late Dr. Hassan Hatut and Dr. Meher Hatut, they used to tell me, we would rather be poor and independent than enriched and enslaved. And so we're not taking foreign government money. Uh, so, you know, in order to make this work, I'm, I'm hustling. I'm going around the country and trying to raise money for the scholarship funds and for, uh, our, our annual just operating expenses as well as grow the institution. And, and so. Um, we've had to be creative. One was this hybrid intensive format that you indicated not only allows us to bring the best and brightest faculty, but it did three things for us that I think were essential. The first one is that it brought the faculty, but number two, and this was, I think, as important, if not even more important. It allowed us to attract students who were already working full time serving their communities across the country. It made our program accessible to them because they didn't have to quit their jobs, relocate, go into debt in order to study. Uh, at band and get a credential to help them do what they're already committed to doing. And the third and the third thing is that it allowed us to have the highest of standards of faculty. I mean, our, our faculty are world class. Like we, I would, I would argue that band has the strongest lineup of faculty and Islamic studies in the country above any one of the elite institutions of higher learning that we, you know, from which we draw our faculty. We have, we have them all. I mean, you know, the cream of the crop, the, we've really, uh, cherry picked the, the best of the best. And, you know, when we came up with this model, we, we literally identified and ranked the Muslim scholars for each subject we wanted to offer and, uh, across the country and in Canada as well. And we said, who, who do, who's the number one ranked person in every subject matter? And we had 15 or so different subject matters our first year. Uh, and our subjects the first year and, uh, the number one ranked person across the board. They all said, yeah, they all said, yes, they said, we're busy. We don't have time for this, but we cannot say no, because we're coming out of the ivory tower. And this is our chance to help shape the hearts and minds of the next generation of Muslim leaders and scholars. And so. You know, they and and most of them have come back year after year after year for the last 14, 14 years. And, uh, so that so that is one kind of innovation that came up came about just because of the need to be accessible to the students and to have a high quality caliber faculty. And the second thing that we that we've done in order to sort of. Um, be a, a value add way, uh, you know, you know, have an organic way of being known is that we said, let's, we have this stellar lineup of faculty. Let's and relevant subjects. Let's video record everything and we'll put it on a learning platform and we'll figure out what to do with it later. So we've, we've created this learning platform. We call it ban on demand. And, you know, each. Remember if you're taking these courses for, for credit. It's, it's about 3, 000 per class. We have over 30 classes on this learning platform. You can do the math. What is that? That's 90, 000 for the content you have access to for a whopping 10 a month. You know, it's an all access pass. So, you know, for us, this does three things. It allows people who are busy working professionals to have access to the same vetted, curated content that our students have access to. You don't get credit for it, but you have access to that, so it elevates religious literacy. Uh, number two is that, you know, uh, at 10 a month, hopefully it'll, it will, uh, if we, if we get 20, 30, 40, 000 subscribers, we're about 3, 000 now, um, it'll start to fund these scholarships. And, uh, number three is, uh, some small percentage of people who see the, the, the quality of our education will then enroll in our degree program. So, so those are kind of the three functions of ban on demand, and, and we're looking to take that to the next level, uh, perhaps with your, with your insight and wisdom, Imam Tariq. And then lastly, we said, uh, You know, there are a number of people who don't know about Bayan who are probably never going to become students, but who could benefit from the high caliber of our faculty who are diverse and have connections across the globe. To Muslim heritage lands, why don't we create a Muslim heritage land tour agency where we visit, uh, uh, incredible places that have a connection to the umma and bring our faculty, in addition to having a local tour guide and create. Uh, experiences that are family friendly and uplifting spiritually and, uh, and highlight the beautiful and rich and dynamic Islamic heritage. And so we launched that a few years ago. We launched it actually just before COVID, uh, obviously closed down during COVID, but our vice president, Munir Sheikh, who Uh, we reconnect. I've known him since I was seven years old. Uh, he's a couple years older than me. We, he was at that Muslim youth camp that I talked about and he taught me how to catch a lizard with a blade of grass when I was seven. So, uh, I've, I've, I've taught many people that skill set since then. But we reconnected in graduate, graduate school, uh, in our doctoral programs at UCLA. And, uh, at that time he was studying the Convivencia, which is the Andalusian, uh, period in which Muslims, Jews, and Christians, uh, lived together and, and, uh, studied together. And he used to lead tours for UCLA's history department along with one of his professors to Morocco, to Spain, to, um, you know, other parts of North Africa. And so, uh, he had suggested, uh, before COVID that we lead some tours to that region. And so we, we started that before the pandemic and, uh, I had led one to Palestine. He had led some to, uh, North Africa, pandemic happened. And then when it closed down again, we started up, but we started up with, uh. Over 10 destinations a year. So we're going to places like Uzbekistan and Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, South Africa, Gambia and Senegal, um, to Bosnia, Spain, uh, Egypt, Turkey, Umrah. So, you know, we're, we're, we're just to name a few. So we, we're, we're putting on incredible tours and people come back time and time again. I was the, I just came back from leading one to Iran last year. I led two to Palestine, uh, also, uh, last year and, uh, people who got on the trip, they said, this is my third time on a Bayan trip. This is my fourth time on a Bayan trip. This is my fifth time on a Bayan trip. So, you know, alhamdulillah, people are really enjoying that as well. And that, you know, also serves. Uh, as revenue source to offset some of the, the tuition, uh, discount that we're offering our students, the scholarships that we're offering our students.

Hmm. Casting a lot of nets.

Yeah. I mean, you know, my, my dad may be been right. He might, he may have been right when he told me, it doesn't matter what you study in school. You're Palestinian. You're going to

go into business. Well, let me shift a bit. How does joy or gratitude? How do these things. Impact your desire to provide accessible, high quality education, um, as a service to the UMA and also to humanity. How do these things color your work on a daily basis?

Yeah, I would say that I am grateful and recognize that those, you know, recognize those who have poured into me. You know, my teachers, my mentors, people who, who just took me under their wing and, and provided me with some support, some guidance, some wisdom, some insights, some moral support, everything throughout the, throughout my, my, my youth and early adulthood. And so, um, the way to. express that gratitude is yes through worship and prayer and fasting and charity and all of that, but also through uh paying it forward, you know giving it to the next generation and so I I really enjoyed teaching I taught at UCLA for 10 years and I uh, I just love seeing the spark go off in a student's eyes when they understand a concept or um, you know when when they When their perception expands and, uh, to seeing enthusiasm, enthusiasm and excitement about a topic, uh, whether it's, um, religious or linguistic or historical or philosophical or theological. Uh, I just enjoy the whole process of, of teaching and learning. And, uh, you know, I, I also, um, worked a lot with the youth group and, uh, appreciated the role that others played in my own spiritual formation and so working with youth and, and, and seeing them connect with something meaningful as opposed to getting sucked up into, you know, the, the glitter and glamour that is, you know, presented to them, whether, whether online or in real life, um, in ways that are false, um, to, to have them connect with something substantial and meaningful through the faith. To me, that is, uh, very rewarding.

Can you share some of your perspective and, and experience with leadership, uh, and how your own has maybe changed, developed some of the different perspectives that you might have now? One of the things about leadership is that you have to be sure about your own. Capability in your own vision. Um, was that vision met by anybody around you with the sense, maybe some trepidation, or did you have any naysayers around you? And as a part of your own assessment of your leadership, how does your current approach compare to where you started or is there a difference?

Yeah. Uh, you know, it's, it's funny. I don't think anyone ever, um, You know, said out loud to me. They might they, they probably thought it but I don't think anyone ever discouraged me from undertaking, you know, the project of Bayan, in part because I was responding to opportunities that presented themselves. So, you know, I was, I was, when I was the, I mammo the Islamic Center of Southern California, it was actually my mentor, the late Dr. Maher hat who said, you know, um. And as a bigger project in the Islamic center as an entire community and you're the right person to lead it and it was very humbling, but he was encouraging of me and I just told him you're just trying to get rid of me as the amount, I get it. But, you know, it was it was it was very humbling and I was encouraged and and y Yeah. I, no one discouraged me, I have to say. Uh, that's awesome. And, and people, and people understood like the need because, you know, I, I've talked to a lot, thousands and thousands of people over the last, uh, 25 years. Um, and I think that without question, in my estimation, the number one challenge that our community faces is how to pass on faith to the next generation. And if we're talking about an institution. That's preparing leaders to better pass on the faith to the next generation. People are like, not only yes, I get it. And this is, this makes perfect sense. But where can we, you know, uh, where can we find one of your graduates to hire? Uh, because we need that at our mosque and our community, uh, across the country, every large and small mosque. They're all looking for someone who is. You know, well qualified, well grounded, who has a, what I call the three C's good character, which, you know, we can't teach that you either, you know, you come at a graduate school level, you come with character, you don't, but, you know, good character. Commitment to that community. They're not one foot out the door looking for something, you know, bigger and better. Uh, so commitment character and then charisma. Which is the ability to inspire other people, uh, through your words. So, again, that's, we do teach a little bit of public speaking, but it's, uh, you know, your ability to, to connect with other human beings is probably not going to start from scratch at Bayan, you have to come in with some of that. Um, and so I say find someone with those three C's. And send them to BAM for on the job professional development training and we'll give them the credential, but in the network and, you know, so many other things, but, um, the need is definitely there and, and, and people get it right away. And, and so I've received nothing but encouragement. I've never received any. I've never had a conversation where people thought that this was irrelevant or. You know, um, the wrong direction or anything?

No, not that the effort is irrelevant, but sometimes the, the magnitude of a vision can go far beyond what others are able to see or imagine. And unfortunately, people often impose their own limitations on what they believe is possible. So how have you navigated situations where your vision may have felt larger than what others could envision? And, and how has having the right associations or supports helped you bring that vision to life?

I was, I was just in terms of, you asked about leadership earlier, I was, um, you know, there's a, in Silicon Valley, one of our early board members, uh, Matthew Mengerink is a, is a executive, uh, from the Silicon Valley culture. You know, he would always cite the famous quote, um, about how, uh, people oftentimes overestimate what they can accomplish in one year, but they're dramatically over, uh, rather, rather, they dramatically underestimate what they can achieve in 10 years.

And

so, you know, he always suggested that we have a culture in which we aim to have a big audacious hairy goal as the, as the, as the saying goes. And so, you know, we, we actually have had a 50 year vision retreat in 2017, and we brought together stakeholders from across the country, and we talked about what, you know, explore what we could look like in 50 years. And so we actually started talking about having our own law school, our own business school, our own medical school. And, uh, you know, if we're going to, if we're going to go in that direction, we have to leave the groundwork now. But, um, but yeah, that's, that's the kind of big vision that we need, even though that we started with three students, and then eight students, and then 16 students, and then 32 students. So at first we were doubling every year. But, you know, we've grown on average, 33, 34. 4 percent year on year, and, you know, that's reasonable growth. It's, it's accelerated growth, but it's reasonable growth. It's not like we went from zero to 150 students. Right. Within the first year so it's, um, I've always, you know, not been daunted by the idea of building something with a, with a long term big objective. Knowing that there are small milestones, uh, on the, on the, uh, you know, daily that you try and, uh, aim for. And so, yeah, I don't, I guess I've, I've never even had a conversation with anyone today as to like, Oh, is this too much or is this too big? It's that's never even never occurred since we, since we started, since we started.

Hmm. So you served as the Imam of a masjid with a sizable community. Do you see differences between your leadership as the imam of a masjid in comparison to your leadership as the president of, uh, Bayan Islamic Graduate School? Are there appreciable markers of, of development that you can recognize in your own trajectory of leadership?

Um, yeah, I would say that actually before. I even became imam at the Islamic Center of Southern California. I had started a number of different organizations. They weren't sort of, sort of as structured and as large as BAN, in a sense, but some of them were bigger at the same time in terms of actual numbers of people involved. And Um, this was like in 1990. I was still like 20 years old. We had started an organization in the Bay Area when, you know, I went to, I ended up transferring to UC Berkeley and getting my degree in Arabic and Islamic history from there, but While I was an undergrad, um, I started an organization with a couple of, of friends called American Muslims Intent on Learning and Activism, AMILA. And, and we, we used to Have a weekly halakha. We had a monthly potluck. We used to, uh, interface with media and speak to seventh and ninth grade classrooms about their Islam chapter. Um, you know, we, we put on retreats and we did all kinds of things. We'd bring scholars out and engage with, with, with young professionals primarily. And, uh, people who were post college in Silicon Valley, a lot of tech people. And, um, you know, the group got pretty active and dynamic and, you know, large scale and, and I remember meeting with, at that time, I was also politically active and we were, I was lobbying in DC. I went with, um, the, the woman who had started the Muslim youth camp. If at Quraishi. She had started a, an organization to, to help the youth. Uh, give relief to the Bosnians who were, who were facing persecution at that time, and they had an arms embargo against them. So we went to lobby D. C. to get the U. S. to, to help bring them relief. And I was in D. C. with her and a group of other Muslim, Muslim young people, Muslim professionals who were there to try and have our voices heard, uh, on behalf of the Bosnians. And Um, we, we, we got into the elevator with some, you know, older Caucasian gentlemen who she introduced me to as a, you know, lifelong friend as someone who was a, a high power consultant, uh, for, uh, corporations and, and, and such. And she said, Jihad, you're leading a, uh, a group in the Bay Area. You get one free question. What do you want to ask this guy? So I said, well, give me advice as someone who started an organization as leading it. And he said, this was great advice. Like I was at this before I hadn't even gotten my bachelor's degree. And, you know, Um, I was still, these are early days in my life. And so he said, uh, great, you know, really with great insight. He said, Your role as a leader of a group, whether that's a corporation and not for profit, whatever it is, is to manage the energy of the group. And you do that by Articulating a vision that's bigger than any one person. In other words, you paint the picture through your words as to where it is that you collectively are trying to go. You're not there now, but this is where you're aiming to, to, uh, aiming to, um, uh, arrive at it someday. And, um, you grow the energy of the group by achieving success. Uh, which are milestones along that pathway towards that goal. And he said, the thing that you want to look out for, uh, are Chi vampire. So Chi in Chinese means, uh, energy. And so he goes, you want to grow the energy, the group through success, and you want to avoid, uh, the energy being sapped by individuals internally who are, you know, through infighting or. whatever that are sucking up all the energy of the group. So he said, you have to be vigilant to, you know, to protect the group from internal and external chi vampires and, uh, maintain a focus on that goal that unites everybody and build the energy and the enthusiasm of the group by achieving those milestones along the way. So that's kind of been a very foundational approach that I've taken in terms of leading. Uh, whatever group I'm part of and, um, I've kind of bring it with me to Bayon as well.

Good stuff. Good stuff. Thank you for that. Uh, I want to close out by asking you a two part question. Number one, what advice would you give to prospective students? And number two, what advice would you give to current leaders?

Yeah, I would say I'll start with the latter. If you're a leader, uh, it's super important for you to continue to grow and to learn and to identify, uh, both mentors and sponsors. And a mentor, the difference between the two is a mentor is someone who gives you advice. And that's very valuable and find people who are where you want to be in the future and solicit their advice and their input and their guidance. And if you're blessed to find a sponsor even better and the sponsor is someone who's also ahead of you in your career trajectory and is willing to reach down and pull you up, provide opportunities and make introductions and pave the way for you. That's different than just giving advice and giving advice is valuable and so don't get me wrong, you know, it's great to have. Uh, you know, people who are mentoring you, but even better if you find some sponsors. And so, uh, look out for both. Um, it'll, it'll help you as a person and within your career as well. It'll, it'll help you achieve great, great success. With regards to students, um, you know, Muslim, uh, wisdom is the lost property of the believer. You, you acquire it wherever you find it. And so, you know, there is this kind of lore of studying abroad and one of the things that, um, we've tried to do it Byan, is to demystify Islamic knowledge to make it accessible and to make it, um. you know, presented in a way where it's not about the, the garb that you wear and the, the facade that you present, but rather about the substance. And, um, so yeah, look, look to the substance and not to the, not to the, to the outer trappings, um, when pursuing knowledge. Um, and, uh, hopefully you'll. Your journey will bring you inner peace and provide you with the foundation that you can build the rest of your life on in preparation for that day in which we're all expecting to stand in judgment before Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, but hopefully we'll do it not having earned God's grace and mercy, but rather Maybe being more, uh, deserving, having given it our best, having given it our best, uh, effort. So, um, yeah, don't be dissuaded or distracted by, by fluff. Go right to the substance and, uh, pursue it and, uh, and ask God to guide you and be, be open to wherever that may take you, even if it's not, if it's not what you planned. Uh, that's really be, be in tune. You know, you might have a vision of where you're going, but Allah might have a different plan for you. Don't fight it. Look for it. Be open to those signs that they come, that come your way. And, uh, and when, when, when Allah opens the door for you, uh, walk through it and, uh, trust in Allah.

Well, I am grateful that you walked through that door, uh, Dr. Jihad. And we pray that Allah continues to increase you and this institution in his service. Now, to our listening family, this is an important effort that provides access and support to those who are supporting our communities on the ground in real time. Uh, we're talking about. An institution that provides a high quality education and access through the Muhammad Ali Scholarship, which you can support in one of two ways or both ways. First, by subscribing to Bayan On Demand. We've already talked about what it is. We've talked about the breadth of the coursework. We've talked about the value and that it's only 10 a month. So. You can start by subscribing to Bayan On Demand, get a subscription for your loved ones, for a friend, uh, even for somebody who may not like you, right? This may be the turning point right there. Get them that subscription to Bayan On Demand. And second is you can donate directly to the Muhammad Ali Scholarship Fund. And I'm going to stop my pitch right there, okay? Uh, I will simply direct you to bayanonline. org. That's bayanonline. org. Get more information there. Keep us in your du'a and we will keep you in ours. Until the next time, assalamualaikum. May the peace that only God can give be upon

you.