If you feel absolutely depleted at the end of the day, or like you just

need to vent to someone, there's a crucial question you need to ask.

Are you in a toxic work environment or is it just misaligned and wrong for you?

We all know what a totally toxic workplace looks like, but if your work

culture doesn't share your values or allow you to play to your strengths,

you might find your energy evaporating.

And while one person's favorite results driven culture might be another

person's nightmare, there are some more nuanced things we experienced at work

that cause us to ask is it just me?

This week I'm delighted to welcome back upcoming Frog Fest, speaker, author,

and clinical psychologist, Dr. Claire Plumbly, to talk about the difference

between toxic or misaligned workplaces.

Claire has some great questions for you, which can help you find out if

what you are experiencing is down to a culture that's just not a good

fit for you, or if it's something more toxic that's affecting everyone.

If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling

stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options.

I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

I am Dr. Claire Plumly, a clinical psychologist and the lead of Plum

Psychology, which is the new name, trading name for Good Therapy Limited.

We are a group of psychologists who work with trauma models to support people

overcome burnout, anxiety, and trauma.

And I'm also the author of a book called Burnout, How to Manage Your Nervous

System Before it Manages You, which is how I came to know you, Rachel.

It's wonderful to have you back again on the podcast, Claire, you're one

of our very frequent guests, and if people haven't read the burnout

book yet, I would highly recommend it, It's absolutely brilliant.

And Claire, we are here today to talk about toxic workplaces.

Now, one of the ethoses of You Are Not a Frog is that frogs in boiling water,

um, only have two choices either to burn out, or to jump out of the pan and leave.

And I always say, you've got more choices than that.

'cause you're not a frog.

You could turn down the heat in the pan.

You could get out of your pan, go to another pan.

So just like move the workplace.

Or you could jump out your pan and go to a lake, something completely different.

And either is equally, equally valid.

There's no judgment about any of this, but we often get the question in our

training, well, is my workplace toxic?

Is it just me?

How do I know if I need to go to another pan or not?

Because people just don't, don't know this, and it's quite

hard to look at it from within.

And I, I think in the NHS at the moment, almost any workplace that we're in, just

because of the, the demand can make the workplace feel toxic even when it's not.

It's just everyone's sort of stressed and overed and stuff like that.

So you've joined us today to, to shed a bit of light on actually, is the workplace

toxic and you actually have to get out 'cause we're the best one in the world,

you'll never be able to change it, or is it just the wrong place for you?

Or perhaps even it's, it's okay, this is just what normal workplaces

are like in this day and age.

So we can cover all of that in like 45 minutes, right?

I mean, we're gonna be unpicking it together.

There's not a right or wrong, which I know people listen to these podcasts

hoping that one day there will be just like the, the one easy answer.

So we're just gonna outline some of the toxic things that we've seen, or

certainly I see in the clinics that I, um, do that would be like red flags.

Um, because I think it is really hard.

You, you've gotta, first of all, notice you're in the boiling water,

which is the first step, isn't it?

Like you say, um, and then you've gotta kind of work out, okay, is it me or not?

And that is quite a big question.

Often people will go inwards, and, blame themselves for,

for being rubbish at first.

So it's, it's important to recognize if it's abusive or, you know, toxic.

Um, and sometimes that's quite a hard thing to hear as well, and

own up or, or like, so, so it is really complicated, the whole thing.

Yeah, it can be like suddenly discovering that you're in a abusive marriage, right?

You know, I, I've known people that have suddenly realized this, that

it, it's felt a bit wrong, but they sort of thought, well, everyone else,

it's the same for everybody else.

And then suddenly they realize, oh no, it's not the same for everybody else.

And, and this is harmful.

And then they suddenly realize that the, the partner isn't gonna

change unless they want to, and then they're not gonna change.

And then, then it becomes a very stark choice and you know what you need to

do, and it becomes really, really hard.

So it's a tricky one.

And I think sometimes doctors, their relationship with their job

is a little bit like a marriage.

You've put so much into it.

You know, you've put 20, 30 years of your life into being trained, being in it, but

sometimes it's quite hard to pull out, is it the job or is it the workplace as well?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And, um, maybe it would be helpful just to start thinking about what, what potential

toxic things are that I've seen, and I'm sure you have as well in your work.

So, the, the most, well, well, I think a beginning one is bullying.

You know, if you're being bullied by particularly a boss or a manager,

um, someone with power, that can be really difficult because you

can not know where to turn to.

and quite often it can be wrapped up in a way that doesn't appear

like they, they don't think they're bullying, you know, so then this is

their, they think it's acceptable.

Again, this is where it gets tricky almost immediately because just

like you said, not many people intentionally bully somebody.

I think a lot of, um, results of people's behavior is to feel bullied

and sometimes it's just 'cause it's behavior that people have learned and

it's gone unchecked and no one's actually told them that's not the way to behave.

How, how would you make the difference between sort of toxic bullying and not

that there is any nontoxic bullying or unintentional bullying that could

possibly be changed if that person was aware of what they were doing?

So, yeah, so whether someone's deliberately, I think, I think

it's the intention behind it.

If someone seems like they're deliberately humiliating or, you know, I, I had

someone who talked about in a, being on a, on zoom meeting, being talked

over and dismissed to the point where they were crying in the meeting.

You know, in front of other people to have your ideas put down or, you

know, at that level of negativity.

I think those are really difficult to hear that when I hear those

stories and makes me feel like, that's, feels like bullying to me.

It does feel like billing to me.

However, I know lots of doctors that would just think that was the way to

behave in these meetings and would just ride, ride rough shod over people because

they genuinely think they're right and that that they need to tell everybody.

So the intention isn't there, but I think no matter what the intention,

if it's coming across like that, it, it's still got the same effect.

Yeah.

I think it is really hard, and especially in places where there's strong hierarchy,

which there is in medicine, isn't there?

There's a sense of identity at a certain level of the hierarchy, which

involves imparting your advice because it's, you know, been well earned.

You've got wisdom and it's important that, you know, you hold that status

as well in the eyes of others.

So it is really complicated, all of that.

But, you know, processes move on, you know?

When I watch TV programs from 25 years ago, and I see like the amount

of harassment that, you know, women put up with you kind of a shock.

So I think I watched Green winging recently.

Do you remember that?

Yeah.

I was so shocked.

I mean, I know that was tongue in cheek at the time, but I think

just because practices have been accepted doesn't mean they're okay.

And I think it's okay to let people know that this is not acceptable and this

is the impact it's had on you, whether that's with the person or whether it's

with somebody in the team who is a mentor.

But yeah, it doesn't mean it's okay to carry on just because

that person has always done it.

There need to be natural consequences to that so that they start to learn and stop.

So, so regular bullying would be one indication of a, a really toxic workplace.

What else would you be looking for?

Well, if there's someone being, um, harassed where there's inappropriate

remarks like we've just been saying, um, about your gender ethnicity,

neurodiversity, or being intimidated, or ex excessively scrutinized, Micromanaged,

um, or offensive towards you.

I mean, again, it's really hard 'cause it can start to go into gray, can't it?

But I think it's the level it's happening at.

Um, some of those things, some of them are obvious.

If someone makes remarks it's not appropriate.

But I think some of them can get a bit gray.

I was just thinking it is great, particularly when someone micromanaging

might be much more about their own worry about, you know, control.

Or it could be because you're in a workplace and you're not

doing very well and you're being performance managed and you see that

as harassment and, and bullying.

I think if you've got a rationale for it like that, like, you know, you are new

to the job or there's certain targets that are being monitored, think it

depends, doesn't it, on the context.

But if it's persistent for no, and no one else is getting that,

so there's a discrimination, and you haven't got a solid kind of

performance review rationale, that begins to feel more harassmenty to me.

Does, does that mean that if no one else is experiencing it, then it's harassment?

But if everyone's experiencing it's not?

I would think that would be more, more of the culture.

If everyone's experience is micromanaging, then actually

it, it's even worse, perhaps.

Dunno.

No, it's a good point.

It would be good questions to ask yourself, wouldn't it?

Is, is it, is it more endemic to the team?

Cause it can be passed down as part of the culture, can't it?

Part of the toxic culture then that's, it's not just toxicity in one area.

What else would you be looking for?

So if the structure of the business is just unsafe in terms of workloads and

expectations of what you are doing to kind of, need to be at work, which I

know I'm saying this and it feels like a lot of HS departments right now.

Um, but you know, you, you feel like actually there's just not enough staff

on, on duty to manage the workload, and you're consistently, finding

you're being asked to do more than you really should for your own wellness and

ability to concentrate and be fit, to arrive on duty and, um, do the work.

When there's that blame culture where people are being kind of scapegoated,

um, where there should be policies in place and procedures to be supportive.

And when there's not a culture of providing people support to feedback

how they're feeling, how they're doing, so there's no psychological

safety, which you can see, can't you?

Quite often when people get highly stressed and those things feel like

a nice to have rather than essential.

So these are all sort of other people's issues essentially, these are

that, that, that become your issues because you are the victim of them.

So things that other people are doing, behaviors that are really unhelpful.

And how would you know, does, do you look for something flaring up in your

nervous system or how, how you'd feel, or?

Yeah, so you're going to be, become quite hypervigilant.

You're gonna start kind of being quite, um, well the word

you might use is sensitive.

Um, although that's got negative connotations with it because it doesn't

mean necessarily that you're being overly sensitive, that you're just,

your nervous system is picking up threats, um, in a toxic environment.

If some of these things are happening a lot, you might start to experience

some, some kind of trauma symptoms where you're, um, getting intrusive

thoughts of, um, of something that's happened at work, replaying

it incessantly through your head.

You're getting escapism thoughts around, you know, how

to get out of the environment.

You might start to be impacted in terms of your sleep, um, patterns, being able

to generally switch outta work mode, which can be hard at the best times

when we've got a big workload, but, um, that can become even harder and that

sense of safety, kind of not feeling safe and kind of follow you everywhere,

and a real sense of dread about going back to work, um, and feeling on your

own at work as well, because you feel so unsafe, like, you know, it doesn't

feel like there's anyone who gets it.

To what extent do you think you can modify a toxic workplace?

If you've got other colleagues in the same boat and you can sort of

club together and support each other?

Can that, you know, almost change the toxic thing for you

in it and help you survive?

Or is it just eventually things are gonna get really bad?

think it depends on the workplace, doesn't it?

I think it depends on whether you can find people who you can have a

conversation with, beyond the kind of like, just the quick, kind of,

almost like gossipy conversations.

Having something more systemic to try and decide steps forward.

You know, obviously you can get organizational psychologists to come in

and do big pieces of work with teams.

You know, when you've got those kind of support systems to help you.

But that does take the leadership to see that there's something here worth

investing in to try and support people.

So I think it's, it's putting, getting enough people together to try and put that

plea in to the people who make decision makers and hold the funds for, for it.

But you, you know, staff are an expensive resource, so it's worthwhile

teams investing and not losing the people they've trained up.

So I think it's, yeah, I think it's really important to try and not do

it by yourself, to try and get a few people together with a bit of evidence.

You know, you often recommend, don't you, to keep a, a log or a

diary, um, so that you can explain it with a bit of hard evidence.

Um, and then you can go and talk to HR or occ health managers.

And is it true that there are genuinely some people that are

more sensitive to that sort of environment than other people?

And I know that, you know, workplaces try to, let's say, oh, they're just

snowflakes or just highly sensitive, or whatever, they, they can't cope.

But are there genuinely some people that have more tolerance

of this than other people?

I think we're all different and I think some people go into medicine

not necessarily knowing that it's going to be quite in some departments.

Well, certainly the kind of people I end up seeing, it

seems to be very high pressured.

Um, and I dunno how much that's, um, supported that understand

is supported in your training.

Oh gosh, no.

I mean, they don't even talk about.

They do not talk about the sort of toxic workplaces.

They don't talk about workplace at all.

It's all about diagnosing the clinical problem.

Nothing else.

Yeah, so I think I, I think in my experience, one of the differences, if

people have grown up with some ability to manage their stress, so they've got

some healthy stress coping strategies already, that will support them to cope,

you know, in a stressful environment now.

And also to gauge, is this okay?

Should I still be here?

What do I deserve?

a little quicker.

Whereas some people have had difficult life experiences where maybe being

humiliated was the norm or being, you know, told they shouldn't have breaks

and, or like, should work until they achieved X, Y, Z, they might struggle a

little bit more to see where it, where there's a problem and to sense check,

you know, in therapy or with someone else is really important to them.

But yeah, he healthy stress me coping mechanisms, which we ideally learn growing

up from having modeled to us from, you know, having opportunities to, to do

them in childhood and when we're teens.

You know, like when to remove ourselves from the situation as well as like

practical tools that we teach, you know, around breathing, cognitive

skills, mindfulness, all of that.

How to set a boundary, how to say no, how to say, don't talk to me like that.

And help seeking behaviors, because it can trigger so much shame.

And if there's already lots of preexisting shame, it's hard

to separate, uh, that out.

Actually this, I'm, I've got extra shame that is being created by this toxic

environment that's not mine, and it's external shin that belongs over there.

I, I'm, I'm wondering, Claire, you're just making all these

light bulbs come off in my mind.

'Cause actually these toxic environments have been so normalized as we've gone

through our medical training, like you talk about, you know, watching,

watching TV from 25 years ago.

But I remember when I, when I qualified in 1998, a long time ago, my first job, my

first house job, there was a consultant, consultant, urologist, who was the most

sexist, misogynist, nasty human being.

And he would regularly talk down to the girls on his ward, around the female

doctors, make absolute derogatory marks of us tell us we should get back in

the kitchen, all that sort of stuff.

We just had to laugh it off and that was just normal.

And these environments that we've been in, you know, I mean, nowadays if they

did that, they wouldn't, this consultant wouldn't last five minutes in today's NHS,

but everyone's like, oh, he's just like that, or whatever, horrible human being.

But this stress, stress, the sort of toxic workplace almost

has been normalized for us.

The over, you know, the, the ignoring our own needs and the overwhelming workloads

and the people barking at each other.

And so I almost think the opposite.

I almost think that somebody who is oversensitive, got a lot of shame, might

even stay in a workplace like that longer.

And someone who has done a bit of work on themselves or has stronger

boundaries will be in that workplace and they'll go, hang, hang on a

sec. I'm not putting up with this.

I'm, I'm gonna choose not to be here because this isn't okay.

I don't know.

I, I have seen people that just put up with 10 tons of absolute shit at

work because of the way they've been traumatized in the past, and they, again,

they've gone into self blame and I've just gotta put up with it and this is the way

it always is, and this is just normal.

I totally agree.

Yes, absolutely.

I think it's, I think it's really important to have that sense of

self enough to know what is okay, what isn't, and I think your

early life can really shape that.

Really interesting.

So how do you know if it's just a misalignment of your values

and your strengths with the job?

So the workplace isn't necessarily toxic, but it's just toxic to you, perhaps?

I mean, thinking, having a sense of what your values are is quite important,

which sounds a bit obvious, but I think it's one of those reflective

exercises that we, um, we would like to do, but rarely ever actually stop.

And do we do it in therapy?

Do you do any of your courses?

We don't actually, but I have done it coaching.

I think the problem with values, it tends to get a bit of eye rolling.

Oh God, they're going about values again.

It's such a touchy fa.

Yeah, exactly.

I'd really like to dive in.

It's such a touchy feely, coachy thing.

'cause of course in healthcare, our values are always to care for the

patient, to be kind, to be respectful.

You know, it's all those trussing out, trotting out values that

everyone would say they had.

So I don't, I think that eye rolling comes because we don't actually

understand what values mean.

So how would you define values?

Yeah, that's really helpful to identify 'cause it probably is happening right

now as people are listening, isn't it?

Here we go.

Not necessarily.

Got very enlightened listeners.

We get a lots of, um, yeah, the, the kind of cultural values that

are being kind of pushed down on us.

And we have to adopt the systems values, which is not, um,

necessarily what we're talking about.

We are talking about the things that are meaningful to you.

You can get a sense of someone's values.

You know, in therapy if you ask them to sit and go through your, their

phone photos roll, you know, you'll get a sense that their values are quite

often the, the people who are close to them, like their dog, their children,

their, their holidays, their hobby.

Um, it'll be captured there.

So if you wanna get an, uh, an immediate quick sense, just go and open the

phone and, uh, look through the last photos from the last few months and

you'll start to see the themes there.

In therapy you can go obviously a little bit deeper.

I've got these lovely, um, cards that I use with people with the words,

the values on which you can sort out.

And the idea with the value sorting is that you, you

don't hover over it too long.

You kind of sort them out into the piles around like, really important to me,

kind of important, not important, and you're not meant to kind of overthink it.

And then you kind of narrow this down into the kind of the,

your top five values right now.

And they change over time.

It's a worthwhile exercise repeating.

But think of GA values being like, um, a compass direction.

And when you walk in.

In that compass direction, you tend to feel quite good.

Um, and they're not the same as goals that you might have goals that aligned

with your values, but with a goal that's not aligned with your value, you might

reach it and then be like, oh, now what?

And kind of like meh.

Whereas when they're aligned with your values, um, you can never kind of reach

your value and then think, oh, now what?

You would always kind of be pointing that direction, knowing

kind of what step to take.

So the thing of course with this is that life happens and.

Quite often will pull you off course.

You're comfort saying, walk this way.

You're having to walk in a different direction, like, you know, connection with

my kids, that's an important value to me.

But, um, I also have to pay the bills.

Um, so work will pull me off direction sometimes.

So as long as I'm doing regular things, it helps me connect.

I know I'm taking little steps in that direction.

That feels good.

So, yeah, misalignment of values means, means that.

Um, and so how it's come up for me in my NHS work, when I was working in,

um, talking therapies, IAP service was, uh, a value of mine was doing good

quality therapy that I'd been taught to do, that I knew could be effective.

And at the NICE guidelines say, do it like this, and then was being told,

oh, but do it for shorter sessions, do it for fewer sessions, see more

clients, which means you don't have much time to prepare your sessions

and your plan and your formulation.

Yeah, I think that's really helpful because I think probably what I would

say for doctors and and healthcare professionals is don't think of values

about being kind and being safe.

'cause those are, those are universal values.

Like no company is ever gonna say we are not safe.

But I, I always look at values are the things that you might differ from someone.

So like for example, my an Enneagram 7.

Fun.

It's what, I got to have fun.

If I think I'm not having fun, then A, I am bored and b, I don't do very well.

Whereas someone else might, they're not that bothered about having

fun, but they want to achieve.

Freedom is quite a big value for me, but someone else might have responsibilities

more important than freedom or diligence or generosity or something.

So we are not, and we're not saying that people who have fun and freedom as their

top two can't be generous, whatever, but it's not the thing they look for the first

in, in, in what they're doing day to day.

So yours obviously is like this quality of the words.

Other people may have.

The thing of actually, I want to be able to offer this service to

as many people as possible, so it's about reach and quantity.

So they'd be then happy With the 20 minute group stuff.

With, you know, they might say, well, it's better for more people

to be seen than to get, you know.

So, so that is where values are important because it's not just the 'cause.

No one would say, oh, well, you know, being safe and doing

a good job is not important.

Of, of course it's, but we, we are like tweezing out the difference

between how people work, like Sarah, my colleagues, she's incredibly diligent.

She's a completer, finisher and gets everything done two weeks in advance.

You know, now actually this might just be a working style, but you can tell

that her sort of working values are very different wine, which is really good

because actually it, it doesn't mean that our outlook on life is, is different.

It's just like, what's the most important thing for her there and then?

So I'm actually, I'm talking myself out of it actually.

I think that might be a working style thing,

But I, but, but she has a working style that aligns with a, a value

around something, efficiency or kind of achievement like, and, um, yeah.

When I do the value sorting task with clients, often they're, there's three

piles, you know, very important, kind of important and not important.

There's hardly any in the not important, and most ones go in the first two.

Because, um, they're all, they will feel like, like you say, no one's gonna

say, I don't want to be, you know, friendly or I don't wanna have response.

Like, but so what we're doing is saying it's not that they're not important, it's,

it's just about the thing about right now where does, what makes your heart sing?

And also then we can see where your needs aren't being met because you're,

you're struggling to regularly walk in that direction of that compass.

And, you know, quite often different values will put a

list in different directions.

You know, for me, I really enjoy the, the freedom and creativity

of my work, like coming and doing a podcast like this for example.

And that can also impact on my value around, like I said earlier,

connection with my my kids.

Because I might attempt to say yes to things, it starts to encroach on

my family time if I'm not careful.

So yeah, it's not just negative life events that can pull us off course,

it's our own values, but I think as long as we have a sense of why

we're prioritizing, that's important.

But how does this all translate to the work context that we were talking about?

Yeah, I've got an example actually of a, a a a GP practice.

Tell me if this, this is misalignment or not.

So there were, there were people in the partnership, I think

there were three or four of them.

And let's say four partners and three of them were people that really valued, like.

Fast cars maximizing their income.

They also liked to be generous to their family.

Some of them were supporting lots of other people.

So actually material income, um, good, that was a, a high value to them.

The other person just wanted sustainability.

She, you know, she just wanted to be able to do a good job, not be overworked.

She'd rather have a lower income.

It must be sustainable and, and feel more calm and relaxed.

But the others were quite high achievers and wanted, wanted the income.

And so is that an example?

So neither one is better than the other, but is that example where there was

misaligned values and so for that partner in with the three people that were very

driven on the achievement on, you know, that, so they would go for every single

new thing that came out from the, well in those days it was the, the CCG, they'd

go for every single different thing so they can maximize in from the practice.

And this, this other partner's like, no, we can't take anything more.

The staff have been, you know.

So yeah, and vice versa, if those high achieving partners were in a

practice where they were like, no, this is all about sustainability

and you know what it feels like to work here, they would be misaligned.

So it's nothing wrong.

It's just a different way of working, which made it feel

then toxic to that person.

I think that's a really good example.

I think it sounds really lonely to be in a place where you are the only one holding

certain values because you, you're like a fish swimming upstream, aren't you?

And I think it depends on, you know, the acceptance of values amongst the team,

um, to work in a slightly different way.

But if the values are permeating down to all the decisions that affect this other

person, that's gonna be quite tricky.

So I think that's quite a hard one.

Can you get a sense of values if you go to an interview at

a GP practice for like that?

It's quite tricky, isn't it?

It might be hard to know, but I suppose it's good to think

about this like asking questions,

I guess it gets shown in behaviors because if you go to an interview for

example, that if they're saying, yeah, we full-time is 10 sessions a week

and we don't get cover for holidays, we just like divvy out the work.

We don't use local, whatever then, then they're not vol,

valuing the, the quality of life.

They're all about the income and stuff like that.

So values get shown in behavior.

I think then you could think of two or three questions for your interview or

pre-interview if you're going and visiting to ask that would try and get at that,

couldn't you, like what's your policy on working from home with like admin?

Like I was talking to a GP recently, he was really surprised to start

a new practice who said that they, they don't let you, you don't

need to take a computer home.

We don't believe in that.

And so, so that was interesting for her 'cause she hadn't had

that at the previous GP practice.

So yeah, think trying to make it super practical, like values might sound a bit

airy fairy, but it is all about behaviors.

It is all about how does this translate to how you spend your

time and what you're doing.

Sometimes though it, it's only possible to find out what people's

values are when you're actually in that workplace, which, which is why

I think it's totally fine to move.

If you get there and you find that there is a misalignment,

you are just not happy there.

Um, a relative of mine was working, uh, got a new job at a practice

and she started working there and it was absolutely terrible.

There was no safety whatsoever.

Everyone was completely overworked.

They hadn't spent any time looking at, um, systems and, you know, obviously

the values were just like income, income, income and nothing else.

And, um, yeah, she, she left and like, good for her because it's like,

you know, she realized pretty quick.

But a lot of the time, and again, this is back to what you said earlier, we're

like, oh gosh, what's wrong with me?

Why can't I cope with this workplace?

Why can't I cope?

It's like.

And, and those people are coping.

That's what we do.

We look at the other people go how come they're doing alright?

But I mean, also you don't, you don't also know what, what else they've got going on.

You know, it might be that they have someone at home.

Making them pasta bakes and stuff when you get, when they get home, whereas

you might be the one having to make the pasta bake, um, do you know what I mean?

Or elderly parents and like, who, who you are caring for.

And so our, our playing fields aren't the same playing fields that even

if they look like it from afar, because yeah, you just don't know.

So there's all of that layer, which we haven't even gone into today.

Um, but yeah, thinking about people, you know.

How would they be fairing in a job like this?

That could be quite a simple question to ask yourself just to work out, is this me?

Is this toxicity?

Is this misalignment of values?

Um, and if you kind of think everybody I picture in this role would be

struggling, then maybe that's a sign.

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question actually, yeah.

Would, would everybody that I know be struggling this role or

who was, who would cope with it?

Who wouldn't?

But it's not just about.

As well.

Um, there's other things aren't there that can cause you to be

misaligned, you were saying.

So there's something around strength as well.

And strengths are different from values, aren't they?

Yeah, so you've gotta think about, like you were saying with you

and your colleague Sarah, um, you really compliment each other.

Um, there are assessments for this, which I only became familiar with when

I went into my own private practice like strengths questionnaires.

I think they're more used by kind of more occupational health, occupational

coaches and people like that.

Um, but they are worthwhile taking a look at because sometimes we're not

always aware of what our strengths are.

I asked Chat GPT for my strengths the other day based on all my.

Entries and it told me that, um, I'm very good at getting lost in

the finer detail of things, um, and not always very good at delegating.

So maybe a conversation with people around you, a safe conversation about

what do you think I'm strong at?

What do you think I sometimes struggle with?

Um, and how that then translates to the tasks at work.

Um, because if you're, if you know, if I'm doing lots of nitty

gritty things at work, I'm fine.

Um, but if I'm in a leadership role, I'm having to delegate,

I might struggle with that.

I think the strengthening is really interesting and I, I'm just laughing

'cause I, I shared a prompt with Claire, a, a Chat GPT prompt with Claire recently,

which is this one where you say, don't look online, just analyze all the

conversations I've had with you and tell me what my strengths and weaknesses.

It was scary, scary accurate actually, down to the point you were saying to me,

you really like concepts and theories, but you're not so good at looking at data.

I'm like, well, yeah, a hundred percent.

Strengths for me when I first did a strength survey was okay.

I was like, okay, there's this WOO thing.

Winning others over.

Don't quite understand what that is and there's connecting ideas.

But I did that while I was a GP and well, a really, really hated my job

actually, but I didn't connect that.

None of the strengths on my top five strengths on the Clifton StrengthsFinder

actually I was using my job, none of them.

None of them.

My job did not, there was no connecting ideas, there was no creativity.

There was maybe a bit of winning others over, you know it.

Now looking back, I was like, of course.

And actually, if I look at what I do now, podcasting, literally it's

using all of my top five strengths, which is really interesting.

My team have recently done this thing called the Widgets.

Have you heard about widgets?

What's that?

I'm interested.

This is something.

Now I'm just gonna say we have absolutely no financial interest in this company.

We're not promoting it, but I, this will sound like I do because it's really good.

So Patrick Lencioni, he wrote The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, which is one

of my favorite leadership books ever.

If you haven't read it, get it.

It's all about how we fear conflicts and how to build trust and all that.

His company has done this thing called Widget.

And it's basically if you are in a team that has to do work together,

get things done together, it describes all the different processes in, all

the different things that happen.

If you're, say, creating a project.

So say if I'm making a widget, let me say, say if I'm making a banana holder.

Whatever one of those is, you've got to.

W stands for wonder.

Oh, I wonder how we could do it.

What we could do.

I wonder if people need a banana holder, right?

Next one is invention.

So, okay, banana holders, how would I make that and what would it look like

and how would that actually happen?

And then D, that's discernment.

Well, is this a good idea?

Would anybody use it?

And would shop, sell that for me.

And then G is galvanizing.

Okay guys, we are gonna make the banana holder.

It's gonna be brilliant.

Well let's get everyone together and do it.

Then e is enablement.

So it's like Claire, right,, what, how can I support you to, to do your

bit for that banana holder thing?

And who else do I need in the team?

How are we supporting them?

And then T is tenacity.

Right, guys, we haven't ordered enough wire hooks for the banana thing.

We've gotta get it done.

How are we gonna ship it out, right?

Let's make sure we do it.

What?

Let's get a database, you know.

So you've got every step in the process, right?

So you and your team, you do this questionnaire and it tells you

what your two working geniuses are and your two working frustrations.

And it's honestly been transformational for me and my team because you can

imagine my, my frustration is tenacity.

It's like actually getting the thing delivered or whatever.

And also interestingly, I'm not so good at the enablement.

I'm, I I'm not very good at line managing sup supporting people in, in front of me.

Well, I thought I was, interestingly, but I guess it doesn't mean

you're not necessarily, it's just, it's not where my energy goes.

But I, my zone, my, my zones of genius are the ones I'm good at is, um,

invention and discernment, actually.

But if you put me on a project, when I got to be the one chasing everything,

saying, have you sent this email?

Have you done that?

Then my energy absolutely drains, which is why I really, really struggle

when, you know, with, with all the ni nitty gritty of running a business,

and I really need to have support.

Now we've got other people on our team where tenacity is their working genius,

and they are absolutely wonderful, but invention is their frustration.

They, they don't like having to work out processes.

And so.

In a GP surgery, for example, partnership.

Now, apologies to people that aren't gps just 'cause I know general practice.

I hope you can, people can apply this to their other lives.

But all the partners are expected to do pretty much the same thing.

Or they rotate, okay, your management partner now, your

management partner, or they might have, or your HR partner, whatever.

But you know, it's starting to get, it's like, well actually

you are good enablement.

You do the HR and the line managing, right?

You, you are really good at invention.

You sort out the, the workflow process, the letters, the doc manager, right?

You do that.

Someone you know, someone else wonder, someone else is, is

responsible for team supports.

You play to your strength, not your weaknesses.

So with the widget stuff from this Patrick chap, is that something

that would apply to, like medical teams, could they come and do this

So I think it costs 25 quid to do the survey.

person or per team?

per person.

Per person, which I think is a great investment.

And with me and my team recently, we've just said to people, well, what

are your two strengths and where could you use that more within our team?

And someone was like, I love checking things.

My tenacity means I just like so seriously.

Give us the email, give, I will love to just look through

and make sure it's right.

And I'm like, oh, that's just like the worst thing in the world for me.

And I think the other thing was it shown that when, when someone looks

like they're not performing or they're really struggling, if you look at

it nine times outta 10, it's because they're being asked to do stuff that's

in their working frustration, and as soon as you get them into the right

bits, then they're absolutely brilliant.

And so I don't know.

When I'm looking at this thing about strengths, just even just

knowing yourself, it's about self-awareness and understanding, but

also understanding your colleagues.

If you can just get a better understanding of everyone and there's

not just widget that's pretty you.

There's Enneagram, which I think is, I love the Enneagram.

There's MBTIs, weatherized Briggs type inventory.

You've got, um, the one about Belbin team roles and things like that.

It's just really helpful and sometimes, like if, if you were in a, a practice

where you were expected to do the tenacity thing all the time and it's just not

in your zone of genius, then you're gonna be totally misaligned to your job.

Yeah, I think this is really helpful and I don't think these things are particularly

talked about much in psychology.

So it'd be interesting if anyone's listening to this, who's

a psychologist and disagrees.

But I feel like we err more towards more skills and values.

And we do think about strengths, but not, I don't know, just the, these

phrases didn't come up really in my training with any psychological models.

So it's borrowing more from the kind of coaching industry in my view, but,

or other areas of psychology, less clinical, but I do think it's, it has been

really helpful to have that as an idea.

Otherwise you're just kind of leaning on, you know, your own self-awareness,

which sometimes isn't always that strong.

I, I mean my previous working definition of Zone of Genius was really the stuff

that you really like and you're good at.

That's the Michael Hayek definition.

I like that.

Because actually, if you like it and you're good at it, well first

of all, if you like something, you are likely to be good at it.

If you like something and you're not very good at it, keep it as a hobby.

You know, like me, that's like singing on stage.

But we, we don't often, I mean, this is quite a simple thing to

solve actually in a, in a workplace.

If you are doing loads and loads of stuff, that's just not in your zone

of genius, then just don't stay.

I mean why, or, or change your job.

And if you can't change your job, go find somewhere that does need you

in your zone of genius, honestly.

And don't feel any shame about that.

Don't feel any shame about the fact.

I, I used to feel quite a lot of shame that tenacity was not my zone of genius.

I couldn't, I wasn't a starter finisher.

I couldn't finish stuff off.

Now I know, I'm like, right, well, I will just get someone else to do that,

'cause actually other people can't do the other stuff that I'm good at.

That is fine.

And isn't that great?

'Cause if we were all the same, then nothing would ever get done.

Totally.

I think it's nice to think more as a team, and we haven't

been encouraged in that way.

I think we're, it's quite a, we live in a culture that value, highly value,

self-regulation, self-development.

It's all self, self, self.

I think there is more understanding about team and us and we, and

co-regulation and psychological safety.

It's all building.

Um, so this is a lovely direction to take it and.

Be nice for people to.

If there's a, an opportunity with your team to do a bit of work around this

as well as your own personal values for example, god, we're setting lots

of homework for them all from this

It is just ideas, isn't it?

It is just ideas.

Well, if, if anyone does want, you know, us to come and do some team

development with you, give us a shout.

I, I do think it's really worth it, but I think this is all in

the sort of bit about, oh, am I misaligned with my job or not?

You know, is it to, is it toxic workplace environment?

That's all about, I guess that's all about the workplace.

This is all about me in relation to the workplace, right?

Yeah.

That's a nice differentiation.

Yeah.

I just wanna highlight that one last thing, sorry is that a slight complicated

matter is that if you've been in a toxic workplace before, sometimes that can just

color everything in the here and now.

So it is helpful to think about what work might you need to do to extract

yourself emotionally and mentally from a previous toxic workplace.

Because sometimes we carry that into the next place and continue to

feel quite affected by something.

And that can be puzzling for people.

So I just throwing that as a last kind of thought really.

I don't think that should be our last thought.

I think that's a really, really important one.

Because what we've been through in the past always

affects our current experience.

It's like you put a lens over your experiences, isn't it?

And you're seeing everything through the filter of when I made a

mistake two years ago, I was utterly humiliated in front of everybody.

And now in a workplace where that won't happen, but I, my nervous

system still expects that to happen.

So we hide, we withdraw, we, yeah.

The only other thought I had around this, was just to think about where,

where you are in your season of life, because, you know, our values change.

Um, our, the demands on us change, um, your bandwidth, you know, will

be impacted on by all of that, your kind of, capacity and interests.

And also your strengths because you're, you'll develop different

skills and be interested in different things at different times.

So it's just worthwhile thinking about that, you know, to, to factor

it in when you are looking at your context, your work context.

So Claire, if I was to ask you for a top three tips that listeners could

get to work out, is it, um, a toxic workplace that I just need to leave

or am I misaligned, which actually you might also need to leave, but

maybe if you're misaligned, you can do, you can do something else.

How would we, how would we distinguish?

Toxicity questions could be, you know, do I feel unsafe or undermined here?

So thinking about that nervous system piece, I often talk about.

You know, that's different to feeling like unhappy or drained, which would

be more about misalignment, safety.

Is someone actively harming my confidence or reputation here?

Which is not just about present safety, but it's also about future safety as well.

If you feel like damage is being done, that'll be really hard to come back from.

Um, are people behaving in ways that would be unacceptable in

other professions, not just my own.

And I think sense check that with someone else who is a neutral person to the, to

the environment you're in if you can.

You know, using your journal maybe to just jot your own thoughts down, but

trying to talk it out somewhere else, because it's really hard when we're in

that place where we are feeling silenced or shut down, to clear your thoughts and

think like, like, what is going on here?

So even just saying it out loud, starting to put words to it,

start to help you figure it out.

You don't need to have it all figured out before you go to someone.

That's quite an important piece, I think.

'Cause I think a lot of us are used to trying to fix it,

and working out, is it me?

But actually maybe that isn't the piece you're doing on your own.

I think talking to other people at their jobs.

Getting a sense of other similar departments and teams

and how processes are done.

Like, you know, what their good practice version of, of processes

and team meetings, peer supervisions, like support that they've got

set up what they look like.

And then just I guess noticing how you're feel in your body, right?

Is your threat detection system always, always, there,

Yeah.

And people around you, like, how are they picking up on what, what you

are like, you know, you, you more snappy, are you disappearing and

never kind of coming out of your room after work or, um, struggling to eat?

Or like other people sometimes know before we know.

Um, so ask them like, have you noticed a change in me?

Do you, do I see my normal self?

Um, if you find it hard to do that.

Thank you, Claire.

If people wanna get hold of Claire, we will put her website

in the, in the show notes.

Um, uh, Claire, just quickly read, tell us what the website

is in case anyone's listening.

Oh yeah, it's now plumpsychology.com.

That's brilliant Claire.

So much more I wanna ask you.

So we'll get you back soon to talk more about nervous systems, threats,

workplace, all that stuff you, what you've got to say is absolute gold.

Thank you, Rachel.

Bye.

Thanks for listening.

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