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Eddie: Welcome to day four
of season one finale week.

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It's episode 43 of the web joy podcast.

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I'm your host Eddie.

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And in this podcast, we interview
guests about their origin story.

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And what makes them excited and joyful
to be part of the tech community.

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I hope you enjoy today's episode.

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A huge fan of spending as little
time as possible typing with my chin.

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Welcome to another episode of Web Joy.

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I'm excited to have
Mike here talking today.

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Mike, say hi to all of our listeners.

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Mike: Hello everyone.

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Hello, Eddie.

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Good to be on the podcast.

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Well,

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Eddie: we're, we're happy to have you.

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So for those who might not know
who you are, go ahead and just

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give us short intro, right?

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Who you are, what you do, the general

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Mike: details.

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So I am Mike.

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I am the c t o and co-founder
of a small startup in based

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out of Virginia called Motiva.

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And we are pretty niche.

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We do, we're a mental health
startup and we connect pre-licensed

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therapists to supervisors.

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Uh, it's an important part of
their, their licensure journey.

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And so we are essentially
a marketplace that connects

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those two populations together.

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Just a tech company that does that.

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So that's what I do for work right now.

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Eddie: How did you get into all of this?

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Seems like you've, you're a, a
fun, exciting part in the journey.

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That sounds really cool to be part of
a mental health startup and everything.

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So how did you get
interested in technology?

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What journey did that take you on?

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Um, how did you kind of
end up where you are today?

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Mike: I, uh, have been doing this
about 11 years, so I'm self-taught,

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started teaching myself back in 2009.

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And I learned back then I was like in
on the med school track, very similar

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to Cat who, who you had on recently.

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And I was doing clinical research,
uh, and I had done my whole pre-med

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thing and was getting ready to go to
med school and then I decided I hated

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it, , I didn't wanna do any of that.

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And tried biotech for
research for a little while.

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Uh, and then decided to like
basically pivot, uh, entirely and.

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I started learning
programming on my own back.

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Then there's like just books.

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I bought a bunch of books and studied and
just tried to figure it out on my own.

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Built a couple of small toy apps and
then eventually landed a job at a

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small startup and kind of worked my
way up to bigger startups and then,

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Wound up in Silicon Valley at some
larger companies that you've, uh,

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probably heard of, like Yahoo, Google,
Airbnb, and then coming back down for a

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landing, so to speak, in startup land.

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So yeah, that's kinda the arc of
my, my journey is kind of getting

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going to bigger, bigger companies and
then, uh, and then smaller, uh, just,

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we're a 21 person company right now.

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What was it

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Eddie: that kind of drew you back to
startup and smaller companies and stuff?

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Once you kind of got up to the
larger companies, what was it

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that kind of tugged you back

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Welcome to day four of
season one finale week.

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It's episode 43 of the web joy podcast.

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I'm your host Eddie.

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And in this podcast, we interview
guests about their origin story.

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And what makes them excited and joyful
to be part of the tech community.

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I hope you enjoy today's episode.

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A huge fan of spending as little
time as possible typing with my chin.

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down?

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Mike: I knew pretty early on
in my big tech journey that I

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was gonna be back in startups.

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Uh, eventually.

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I just find the feeling of like creativity
and ownership to just be so much stronger

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in startups and like kind of like the
impact that you can have on, on pe.

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Like I just feel a lot more connected to
my work when I'm in a smaller company.

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Just being able to own like a feature
from end-to-end, like talking to

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the customer who I've impacted,
or sometimes like a lot of the.

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At a company, the small, my
customers are the employees, and

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I, I have a relationship with them.

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I get to see, you know, how my work
has impacted their lives and how

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much it better it's made their jobs.

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I really like that feeling.

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I just, I didn't get that for many, many
years when I was at these bigger company.

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I mean, I think like you reach people on
a broader scale, but the trade off is, you

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know, everyone's just kind of a metric.

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They're a number and you're trying.

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You know, make those numbers go up, uh, or
like whatever direction that you're trying

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to get them to go in, but you don't see
the impact that the technology actually

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has on like an individual person's life.

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So I really like kind of feeling
that in, in startup land.

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Eddie: Yeah, no, that, that makes
complete sense at Glass Storm, not

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even in that, that big of a company.

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Right.

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But definitely like closer to
Silicone Valley sizes than all

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the startups and small like design
agencies I've worked for in the past.

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And definitely already kind of feeling
that like at not even as big a c as

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some companies get, it's like, okay.

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Yeah, there's a lot of moving parts here.

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And like you said, it's much more, you're
kind of zoomed out from everything.

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Right.

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And it.

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As you zoom out from a photo, all those
individual pixels, like they blend

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together into a tapestry, but you're
no longer looking at pixels, right?

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You're looking at mm-hmm.

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the pattern and the image that comes
out of it, but it's like, well, If

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those pixels are people like that.

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Yeah, that's a huge, that's a
huge thing to zoom out of, right?

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And like something that you kind
of have to remind yourself like,

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oh no, these aren't just pixels.

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These aren't just numbers.

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Like these are people, and I can
definitely see how it would be refreshing

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to step back out of that and into where
you can actually see who you're impacting.

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So I love that.

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Mike: Nothing against people who
kind of prefer having like, oh, I.

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You know, I wanna work on
this product that like, you

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know, 10 million people use.

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You know, I think there's, oh yeah,
there's something magical about

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that too, that you can do that in
technology and you can like push it.

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Like probably you can't push a change
like in the same day that impacts like

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10 million people probably need to go
through like a lot of review to do that.

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But, uh, nothing against that
and does it for some people.

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And, but for me it's like,
that wasn't really it for me.

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Yeah.

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Eddie: Well, and I love
that about tech, right?

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Like it literally spans so much that
you can have people who are really

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passionate about, I'm gonna build this
niche thing for five people, right?

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And then you have.

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People who are gonna work for
a company and build something.

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And like you said, once it gets
deployed and goes through all the

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systems, like it hits millions of
people, maybe billions of people.

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And um, that's just cool that you can
have the same skills and you can choose

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which of those areas you want to be in.

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Right.

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And find the sweet spot
for what works for you.

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Yep.

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Totally.

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As every episode in this podcast, we kind
of just say, Hey, what brings you joy?

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Right.

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What have you been up to lately
that just kind of stuck out

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to you and gets you excited?

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Mike: My journey has been
like primarily front end.

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I probably, you know, became a front
end engineer, like I became what

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I would call a front end engineer
around my, my second or third year

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into, into my, you know, career.

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And I, I'm like really struck by
how much front end engineers care

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about the developer experience.

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And this is something that I
still feel like, you know, front

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engineers get right More than other
languages that I've used in the past.

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It's not that like backend engineers
don't care at all about dev experience,

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but I feel like frontend engineers
take it to like another level.

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And I think there's a trade off here.

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So I just want to caveat this, that
like, It's really complicated to

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set up a lot of these like tool
chains on front end engineering.

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People complain all the time
about like, oh, what's mpm?

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What's brew?

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All these different like package
managers that you need to like know.

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And so there's like a pretty big
barrier to entry to like getting

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into like these like tool chains.

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A lot of people say, I used to just
be able to like, Throw some H T M L

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in a file and like some JavaScript in
a file and then some CSS in a file.

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And like, I didn't have any like
these build systems, but these build

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systems add like a ton of value to my
life, , and I understand why they exist.

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So like my thing is just around developer
productivity, I am like really a, a huge

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fan of just spending as little time as
possible typing, like just trying to like

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type manually enter keystrokes in kind of
like shortening the feedback loop between.

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Writing code and seeing it in your
browser, automating a lot of like

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the things that are just really
annoying about web development.

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I found that like so many of these
things have improved so much over

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the course of the past decade.

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And just to give you a
couple examples of this.

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I remember back in like 2013
or 2014, I started using this

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technology called Browser Sync.

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And back then browser Sync was like
this revolutionary thing where I

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would just have two monitors and I
would like edit code on one of the

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monitors and it would just update
in my other monitor in the browser.

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Like I could just edit some CSS and it
would just get injected into the browser.

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And nowadays it's like so boring, right?

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Like create, if you like spin up, create.

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It's like you get that out of the
box, but back then it was like I had

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to, I used to have to just like write
my code and then go into my browser

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and hit the refresh button and maybe
it takes like five, 10 seconds,

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like, you know, that's really slow.

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But like, maybe it takes a couple seconds
to refresh, but that's enough time for

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me to like lose my train of thought.

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And forget what I'm doing and just the
kind of, just these like tight, these

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tighter feedback loops have really just
improved my productivity over the years.

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Another example is just like prettier.

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There's this, uh, lint tool
called Prettier that just formats

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your code, and I used to used
to have to do that manually.

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It's just like it used to
be such a pain in the butt.

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There's just so many things now
that just, I don't even think about.

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I remember, like I had code
reviews at Google where all we

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would do is just like knit syntax.

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Like, just like, oh,
you forgot a space here.

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You, uh, you should have
broken the line here.

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And I just, I don't spend any time doing
any of that stupid stuff now because

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I have a computer that does it for me.

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So just, I've seen just the evolution
of these tools and I take, you take

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them for granted now because so many.

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Spoiler plates and stuff come with
them, but man, I I, I was around

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when they weren't there, they didn't
exist, and it was so much more of a

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chore to do web development back then.

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Yeah,

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Eddie: no, I, I totally get that.

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I love a lot of those tools as well.

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And I actually, the last company I
worked at was using really old codebase.

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It was not easy to work with
because it had been j s.

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and then they, like, they weren't
able to move to a complete S p a,

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so they were like mid transition
from J S P to Angular s p a.

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And so essentially it was in this
place where rather than actually

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loading up the whole thing, like
you would load up a G S P page and

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some of those pages would activate.

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An Angular app inside the page.

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But if you navigated, you were
doing a full page refresh, right?

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And then you'd get angular and maybe
there were some different things

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you could do while on that page
that wouldn't cause a page refresh.

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But the build thing was crazy cuz
we were still having to bundle

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it back up into being injected
in these different J S P pages.

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So we did not have a lot of that
tooling when I started there.

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Yeah.

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And thankfully we.

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We made a lot of progress in the years
I was there and so when I was leaving we

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finally were able to start using Prettier
and we were doing, we got up to Angular

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11 and it was actually exporting like
a true s p a, aside from like a couple

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pages that were still, so we were able to
actually do like live refreshing stuff.

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Yeah.

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Then now being at Glass, You know, using
much more modern tooling starting to

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migrate into next, which obviously does
all the things like Yeah, really nicely.

228
00:11:40,341 --> 00:11:44,841
So a lot of those tools have been out for
a little while, but in certain companies,

229
00:11:44,841 --> 00:11:46,881
like you still don't have access to that.

230
00:11:46,881 --> 00:11:50,181
And then when you suddenly do,
you're like, oh, this is amazing.

231
00:11:51,001 --> 00:11:54,631
Mike: I started with Java and
uh, I did JSPs for a little bit.

232
00:11:54,751 --> 00:11:59,371
Um, I'm not even like comparing to
JSPs , uh, I'm comparing to like,

233
00:11:59,371 --> 00:12:02,911
yeah, just, uh, I was using PHP at
the time, which is we weren't at

234
00:12:02,911 --> 00:12:04,831
enterprise at, at my first company.

235
00:12:05,191 --> 00:12:05,491
Yeah.

236
00:12:05,521 --> 00:12:09,121
Jsp, like, I can't, I can't imagine
like trying to combine those two things.

237
00:12:09,121 --> 00:12:10,891
I'm glad you, I'm glad you got outta that.

238
00:12:11,071 --> 00:12:11,701
It was painful.

239
00:12:12,316 --> 00:12:13,021
. Yeah, for sure.

240
00:12:13,021 --> 00:12:15,241
Yeah, and I, I think, you
know, you mentioned next Js.

241
00:12:15,591 --> 00:12:17,931
I think like s Spas are no longer cool.

242
00:12:18,321 --> 00:12:21,381
Which I get like, I think like that's,
I understand like, you know, I think

243
00:12:21,561 --> 00:12:25,341
it's a flawed paradigm for a lot of
different use cases, like an Sspa

244
00:12:25,341 --> 00:12:27,561
blog Makes no sense in many ways.

245
00:12:27,651 --> 00:12:27,711
Yeah.

246
00:12:28,011 --> 00:12:31,461
But I still think that like, you
know, the developer tooling around

247
00:12:31,671 --> 00:12:36,741
React is so amazing that like, I,
it, it's like very painful for me to

248
00:12:36,741 --> 00:12:40,791
not have it, even when I'm trying to
like develop like a multi-pay app.

249
00:12:41,121 --> 00:12:41,331
Yeah.

250
00:12:41,331 --> 00:12:44,151
Just like, you know, tools like
Next JS and Remix are, are out.

251
00:12:44,736 --> 00:12:48,726
Which is, you know, like I get that like
we've kind of come from full circle on

252
00:12:48,726 --> 00:12:52,776
like we used to do multi-page apps and
then we did single page apps and now

253
00:12:52,776 --> 00:12:54,576
we're like coming back to multi-page apps.

254
00:12:54,816 --> 00:12:58,746
But now I get to keep all the tooling
that I used to like, kind of bring me joy

255
00:12:58,776 --> 00:13:00,696
when I was, you know, doing development.

256
00:13:00,996 --> 00:13:04,866
And I can still move super quickly
in the developer experience and I

257
00:13:04,866 --> 00:13:06,456
get, you know, like performance.

258
00:13:06,576 --> 00:13:10,376
But you know, the trade off, like
I said at the beginning is, A very

259
00:13:10,376 --> 00:13:13,616
overcomplicated build chain that
like, you know, I, I totally get that.

260
00:13:13,616 --> 00:13:16,736
There's like downsides to it, but
for someone who's like seasoned

261
00:13:16,736 --> 00:13:19,466
as like really comfortable with
these like tool chains, I love it.

262
00:13:19,616 --> 00:13:20,036
I can't get

263
00:13:20,036 --> 00:13:20,486
Eddie: enough of it.

264
00:13:20,606 --> 00:13:21,476
Yeah, totally.

265
00:13:21,566 --> 00:13:27,716
I think one benefit to next and remix
and stuff is I do feel like in some

266
00:13:27,716 --> 00:13:33,166
ways, The big barrier to entry is having
to figure out how all these things

267
00:13:33,166 --> 00:13:37,126
work together, and I do feel like if
someone spins up next or remix, it's

268
00:13:37,126 --> 00:13:41,296
so much easier now to just dive in and
have all this stuff for free rather

269
00:13:41,296 --> 00:13:46,246
than having to like learn 10 different
tools that all need to work together.

270
00:13:46,721 --> 00:13:48,281
And I, I totally agree.

271
00:13:48,286 --> 00:13:57,291
Like I started using P H P back in 2005
or something, and having P H P versus

272
00:13:57,941 --> 00:14:00,731
remix with React, like that's just a

273
00:14:00,731 --> 00:14:01,271
Mike: dream.

274
00:14:01,421 --> 00:14:01,841
Totally.

275
00:14:01,871 --> 00:14:05,351
I think this was like a big problem
too when I was learning React back

276
00:14:05,351 --> 00:14:08,531
before we had these like kind of
frameworks to kind of like tie a

277
00:14:08,531 --> 00:14:10,241
bunch of different concepts together.

278
00:14:10,636 --> 00:14:14,836
Had to cobble together my own router
had to cobble together my own form

279
00:14:14,836 --> 00:14:18,256
library and with remix, you just
get everything out of the box.

280
00:14:18,376 --> 00:14:19,276
Some people don't like that.

281
00:14:19,276 --> 00:14:22,666
Some people are like, oh, I
want to use form or my own form

282
00:14:22,666 --> 00:14:24,466
library, and I'm like, who cares?

283
00:14:24,466 --> 00:14:25,066
I don't care.

284
00:14:25,066 --> 00:14:26,656
Like I just, I wanna be productive.

285
00:14:26,656 --> 00:14:27,961
I wanna work on like the business logic.

286
00:14:28,846 --> 00:14:29,056
Yeah.

287
00:14:29,056 --> 00:14:32,056
There's so many frameworks that like
kind of make these decisions for me.

288
00:14:32,231 --> 00:14:34,211
That I can make these decisions.

289
00:14:34,271 --> 00:14:37,241
I don't want to, like, I just, I,
I think it's like a waste of time.

290
00:14:37,511 --> 00:14:40,451
And so I get these frameworks that
like, have put a lot of thought into

291
00:14:40,451 --> 00:14:44,411
it, have a lot of people like kind
of battle testing it for me and god

292
00:14:44,416 --> 00:14:46,751
bless, uh, open source contributors.

293
00:14:46,751 --> 00:14:49,661
I've just, everyone gets a
benefit so much from it these

294
00:14:49,661 --> 00:14:49,961
Eddie: days.

295
00:14:50,201 --> 00:14:51,251
Yeah, absolutely.

296
00:14:51,551 --> 00:14:55,451
Without open source contributors,
like we'd be in such a.

297
00:14:56,121 --> 00:14:56,931
A worse place.

298
00:14:56,931 --> 00:15:01,161
I mean, definitely all this stuff
coming together just is, is nice.

299
00:15:01,161 --> 00:15:05,271
And like you said, I think I never
really got into Ruby and thus

300
00:15:05,271 --> 00:15:06,891
never got into Ruby on Rails.

301
00:15:06,891 --> 00:15:11,001
But one thing I always liked and
appreciated about Ruby on Rails was how

302
00:15:11,001 --> 00:15:15,501
it was opinionated and you could just sit
down and spin it up and it just, the whole

303
00:15:15,501 --> 00:15:17,871
cyst ecosystem was made to work together.

304
00:15:17,871 --> 00:15:18,981
And I.

305
00:15:19,461 --> 00:15:23,361
Next and remix and Right, like we're
kind of starting to get that Yes.

306
00:15:23,366 --> 00:15:26,361
Where we get some opinionated
frameworks that do everything for

307
00:15:26,361 --> 00:15:29,511
us and it's like, yes, you can
kind of decouple this stuff, right?

308
00:15:29,511 --> 00:15:32,721
Someone wants to spin up, react,
and they just wanna cobble

309
00:15:32,721 --> 00:15:34,071
together 10 different things.

310
00:15:34,071 --> 00:15:34,551
That's great.

311
00:15:34,551 --> 00:15:36,221
Like you do you, but.

312
00:15:36,926 --> 00:15:38,846
If someone just wants
to spin up a project.

313
00:15:38,996 --> 00:15:44,126
I was doing a hackathon back in May
and I was like, well, when am I going?

314
00:15:44,216 --> 00:15:47,846
You know, used to do this hackathon, it
was an internal Glassdoor hackathon and I

315
00:15:47,851 --> 00:15:50,036
was like, oh, let me just spin up remix.

316
00:15:50,036 --> 00:15:52,826
I've been wanting to do something
with remix and like it was so easy

317
00:15:52,826 --> 00:15:55,976
to spin up and like start building
this thing in remix and like, I'd

318
00:15:55,976 --> 00:15:59,726
never used remix before, but in
this like three day hackathon I was.

319
00:16:00,291 --> 00:16:03,081
Able to spin it up and make
like a huge amount of progress

320
00:16:03,081 --> 00:16:04,521
for never using it before.

321
00:16:04,521 --> 00:16:05,061
So that was

322
00:16:05,061 --> 00:16:05,631
Mike: super fun.

323
00:16:05,841 --> 00:16:09,021
I totally agree with the, the
Ruby on Rails discussion too.

324
00:16:09,261 --> 00:16:12,771
I used Ruby on Rails for a while
and even though mostly a front

325
00:16:12,771 --> 00:16:15,771
end engineer, I still used Ruby
whenever I was like starting a

326
00:16:15,771 --> 00:16:18,081
side thing because it's so easy.

327
00:16:18,171 --> 00:16:19,841
It was just so, like
Rails and eight mm-hmm.

328
00:16:19,941 --> 00:16:21,471
and you're, you're off and running.

329
00:16:21,666 --> 00:16:24,426
And you don't have to side on
like a directory structure.

330
00:16:24,431 --> 00:16:25,716
You don't need to decide on anything.

331
00:16:25,716 --> 00:16:30,306
You just follow the convention and you are
just writing business logic and so much

332
00:16:30,306 --> 00:16:32,016
of the stupid stuff is extracted away.

333
00:16:32,376 --> 00:16:35,736
Like I felt like for the longest
time, that just wasn't true,

334
00:16:35,766 --> 00:16:36,706
that that wasn't possible.

335
00:16:37,011 --> 00:16:38,391
In the front end ecosystem.

336
00:16:38,811 --> 00:16:40,941
It was like, just pick all
the dependencies and make sure

337
00:16:40,941 --> 00:16:42,141
they work well together too.

338
00:16:42,141 --> 00:16:46,461
You know, like I remember the thing
that almost made me abandon React was

339
00:16:46,461 --> 00:16:50,271
I was like using a, I was trying to
like integrate like Redux and Redux

340
00:16:50,276 --> 00:16:54,291
form into React and then like I was
running into problems with Redux

341
00:16:54,296 --> 00:16:56,471
form saying, oh, if you want to.

342
00:16:56,966 --> 00:16:58,856
There's a critical bug in React.

343
00:16:58,856 --> 00:17:00,986
You have to upgrade to this
version of this like release

344
00:17:00,991 --> 00:17:02,786
candidate and react to fix it.

345
00:17:03,026 --> 00:17:05,726
And so it's not even just like
picking the dependencies, it's also

346
00:17:05,726 --> 00:17:08,846
making sure that you are on the right
version of dependencies, such as

347
00:17:08,846 --> 00:17:10,346
they Oh, that they all work together.

348
00:17:10,556 --> 00:17:12,596
Where the remix is just like
they've already done that.

349
00:17:12,596 --> 00:17:14,666
They've already like tested
it and make sure it all works.

350
00:17:14,966 --> 00:17:15,686
Yeah, like that.

351
00:17:15,776 --> 00:17:17,996
It's not that a hundred thousand
different, like front end

352
00:17:17,996 --> 00:17:19,226
engineers need to figure that all.

353
00:17:19,646 --> 00:17:21,836
It's just the core team needs to
figure it out and then everyone

354
00:17:21,836 --> 00:17:22,826
else gets the benefit from it.

355
00:17:22,976 --> 00:17:23,846
Eddie: No, that's awesome.

356
00:17:23,846 --> 00:17:28,046
Yeah, we ran into a lot of that at my
last company, like when we, we got stuck

357
00:17:28,046 --> 00:17:33,866
at Angular four, I believe, because
Angular five used Webpac five, I believe.

358
00:17:34,016 --> 00:17:34,676
Oh no, nevermind.

359
00:17:34,676 --> 00:17:37,646
They used the Angular C L I,
which we had chosen not to use,

360
00:17:38,036 --> 00:17:39,706
but then we waited long enough.

361
00:17:40,236 --> 00:17:43,296
Angular 10 came out I think,
and that used Webpac five.

362
00:17:43,716 --> 00:17:46,656
So then it's like we had to like
figure out, okay, we have to be

363
00:17:46,656 --> 00:17:50,016
able to transition over and we have
to be able to support Webpac five.

364
00:17:50,016 --> 00:17:53,736
So then we're like, do our dependencies
support Webpac five and like there was

365
00:17:53,736 --> 00:17:57,606
all this math to make sure that we could
go from Webpac four to Webpac five.

366
00:17:57,666 --> 00:17:58,776
Yeah, it's a lot of drama.

367
00:17:59,191 --> 00:18:02,821
So, yeah, I, I like other people
making those choices for us.

368
00:18:03,721 --> 00:18:03,931
. 
Mike: Yeah.

369
00:18:03,961 --> 00:18:07,681
I think anyone who hasn't like, gone
through version upgrade or like, been

370
00:18:07,686 --> 00:18:12,181
not been, been able to upgrade to some
version of a library, because some

371
00:18:12,271 --> 00:18:16,681
other version of a library that you also
depend on doesn't support that version.

372
00:18:17,166 --> 00:18:20,556
Just do that a couple times and
you'll like really support frameworks

373
00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:21,606
that cobble everything together.

374
00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:24,186
. Yeah, exactly.

375
00:18:24,696 --> 00:18:29,256
Eddie: Well, every episode we always
kind of say, Hey, like is there

376
00:18:29,256 --> 00:18:30,456
anything you've been working on?

377
00:18:30,461 --> 00:18:33,396
Anything that you wanna share
with the listeners that they might

378
00:18:33,426 --> 00:18:35,076
find helpful or wanna check out?

379
00:18:35,376 --> 00:18:37,296
So I just wanted to ask if
there was anything you were

380
00:18:37,296 --> 00:18:38,376
working on that you wanted to.

381
00:18:38,771 --> 00:18:42,821
Mike: Not so much right now, Eddie,
but I do want to get back into writing.

382
00:18:43,031 --> 00:18:46,211
I'm actually like, this is my
first, uh, public commitment

383
00:18:46,211 --> 00:18:47,921
to  to putting out a series.

384
00:18:47,926 --> 00:18:50,471
I wanna, I wanna write a
series called What New Web

385
00:18:50,471 --> 00:18:52,511
Developers Should Know About X.

386
00:18:52,811 --> 00:18:58,331
So I'm, I'm gonna be covering topics like,
kind of like the 2 0 1 version of topics.

387
00:18:58,721 --> 00:19:03,341
What new web developers need to know
about like form validation or security.

388
00:19:03,416 --> 00:19:07,766
Or http or like thinking through
all these like different topics

389
00:19:07,766 --> 00:19:10,256
that like, you know, you're probably
not gonna get at a bootcamp.

390
00:19:10,616 --> 00:19:13,586
But, uh, I wanna start kind of
thinking about those and like

391
00:19:13,586 --> 00:19:14,846
kind of teaching those topics.

392
00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:18,446
So I will be writing at my
website, uh, Mike chen.io.

393
00:19:19,116 --> 00:19:23,496
And so I will probably be trying to
put out a newsletter or something

394
00:19:23,496 --> 00:19:25,086
like that, uh, in the near future.

395
00:19:25,266 --> 00:19:25,566
Yeah.

396
00:19:25,566 --> 00:19:26,766
I'm saying this right now.

397
00:19:26,856 --> 00:19:28,206
I haven't started d doing it.

398
00:19:28,476 --> 00:19:31,356
I'm saying this right now on
this podcast because, uh, so

399
00:19:31,356 --> 00:19:32,676
I'll be embarrassed if I don't do

400
00:19:32,676 --> 00:19:32,796
Eddie: it.

401
00:19:33,126 --> 00:19:35,916
I love that accountability
by putting it on the public.

402
00:19:35,916 --> 00:19:36,876
Yes, for sure.

403
00:19:36,906 --> 00:19:37,266
Nice.

404
00:19:37,296 --> 00:19:37,716
All right.

405
00:19:37,716 --> 00:19:42,251
Well then if you're listening to this,
and you heard this either, Mike got it

406
00:19:42,251 --> 00:19:47,231
out there and so I didn't cut it out or B
Mike still didn't get it out there, but I

407
00:19:47,231 --> 00:19:51,131
wanted him be embarrassed and accountable
anyway, so you should check the show

408
00:19:51,131 --> 00:19:55,001
notes and see if there's any links to that
stuff and see if he actually completed it.

409
00:19:55,601 --> 00:19:56,141
Sounds good.

410
00:19:56,496 --> 00:19:58,446
Well Mike, thank you for joining us today.

411
00:19:58,476 --> 00:20:01,566
It's been a pleasure just chatting,
getting to know you and your journey.

412
00:20:01,926 --> 00:20:06,246
Hearing and chatting about some
developer productivity stuff.

413
00:20:06,636 --> 00:20:08,226
Really a good thing to take joy in

414
00:20:09,066 --> 00:20:09,486
. 
Mike: Agreed.

415
00:20:09,491 --> 00:20:09,726
Yeah.

416
00:20:09,786 --> 00:20:11,046
Thank you so much for having me, Eddie.

417
00:20:11,136 --> 00:20:11,916
Absolutely.

418
00:20:13,285 --> 00:20:16,165
Eddie: Thank you for
joining us for episode 43.

419
00:20:16,555 --> 00:20:21,205
A huge fan of spending as little
time as possible typing with my Jen.

420
00:20:21,685 --> 00:20:25,075
You can find links to everything
we talked about in this episode,

421
00:20:25,075 --> 00:20:28,495
as well as a link to Mike's
website and social media accounts.

422
00:20:29,005 --> 00:20:30,235
All in the show notes.

423
00:20:30,655 --> 00:20:32,065
If you enjoyed this episode.

424
00:20:32,575 --> 00:20:33,265
Come on help.

425
00:20:33,265 --> 00:20:34,795
Some others discover it as well.

426
00:20:35,155 --> 00:20:38,515
Give us a shout out on your
favorite social media platform.

427
00:20:38,965 --> 00:20:40,195
Doesn't matter to us.

428
00:20:40,735 --> 00:20:43,675
And tag a friend or coworker
that you think would enjoy it.

429
00:20:44,575 --> 00:20:48,835
Don't forget to follow us wherever
you hanging out online or subscribe

430
00:20:48,835 --> 00:20:50,665
to our newsletter to stay up to date.

431
00:20:51,295 --> 00:20:53,455
Thank you for joining us for season one.

432
00:20:53,875 --> 00:20:57,385
If you have three minutes, please
take our short listener survey.

433
00:20:57,595 --> 00:20:59,815
You can find the link
right in the show notes.

434
00:21:00,145 --> 00:21:02,575
It'll be invaluable while
we plan out season two.

435
00:21:03,445 --> 00:21:06,295
Thank you for listening
and have a great day.