SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Chloe Bedford

Hello, and welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. Today, I'm really excited to be here with Chloe Bedford, aka The Running Psychologist from Instagram. I'm fangirling a little bit because I've been following Chloe for ages it feels, and I absolutely love your content Chloe, so thank you so much for being here today.

Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here! I feel like a legitimate psychologist!

What is a legitimate psychologist? Now that is an existential question for another episode. But I'm really happy to have you here because I feel there's a lot that we can learn from you about creating content that is educational, but also entertaining and interesting and worth following. So I really hope we can talk a bit about Instagram and how you've grown and why you've grown. But before we get into all of that, could you just say a few words about who you are and how you help people?

So I'm Chloe, I'm a counselling psychologist. Actually, in my day job I work in private practice with children and adolescents mostly, although I have picked up a few adult clients, and I've got a long kind of history of working in in CAMS. So very different from my my Instagram, but I think in a way that's kind of intentional. And, yes, so that's, that's me. I'm also a mum of one and I very much like running.

Yes, me too. So I suppose that brings us on to really why you started your Instagram account. When did you start? It feels like you've always been there as long as I've been on the app, but I've not been on that long...

I started a very long time ago. So I started... back in 2016, I had this idea of wanting to set up on Instagram as a running acount and trying to bring in stuff about mental health and being as anonymous as possible. And just I mean, I've archived all those posts. It was... no idea what I was doing, it was really boring, and it was just rubbish. And I thin, I then, I fell pregnant in 2018, I couldn't stand the app, all I wanted to do is look at pictures of food. And I came back to it when my daughter was about nine months old. My husband works away a lot, so from kind of when she was about eight weeks old, I'd been kind of, done a lot of solo parenting, I was very aware about things I was using to kind of manage my own mental health and look after myself. Some of that was running, some of it other things. And I think I'd followed other accounts like Emma Svanberg, the Mumologist, and Anna Matha, and I was kind of watching them and saying actually, I feel I've got something to contribute to this kind of conversation, maybe with a bit more of a kind of running slant. And so I just kind of started posting, partly about my kind of return to running after having a baby, posting about also my mistakes because I thought I could run a marathon at seven months postpartum, having never run a marathon before.

Yes, yes, my face was wincing!

While I was breastfeeding a baby, you just fed every 45 minutes, so doing five kg loops back to my house to feed her to then go back out again. And it got to like a 50 mile run and my husband was like, literally, what are you doing? And I kind of felt actually, d'you know what, I probably have a lot to share from what I've learned from those experiences to other people, both as a ma, a new mum, as a runner, and also with that kind of psychology slant. So I thought, d'you know what, I'll just start posting and see what happens. And then, so that was November 2019 and then obviously, kind of the pandemic happened, and I guess I was kind of really, there's that part of you that's kind of sharing to help other people but also finding your own support in a away as well. And I think kind of throughout the pandemic, I'd sort of built up a group of other kind of mums in a similar position and I think it really helped with some of that isolation as well. And it really just kind of went from there, and yeah, I just, honestly I'm just making it up as I go along really.

I love that. But I love the fact that it sort of came from a place of wanting to pass on knowledge that you built up for yourself. So yes, some of it was your professional knowledge. But a lot of it also came from your own experiences of trying things out and messing up slightly. And I think that's what makes it so compelling. I think that is the difference between your account and a lot of accounts that I see out there that maybe aren't doing so well with providing mental health support. I think it's that vulnerability, that you're not saying, I always get this right all the time and this is what you should do. It very much seems to come from a place of authenticity and you know, these are things I've tried, try them out, they might work for you, if not try something else.

And I think that's what's been really important to me as well, because you're right, and you look at, I look at other accounts, and I'm like, you're just making me feel rubbish about myself. And I guess, kind of looking at a lot of parenting accounts, and like you know that it's not, it's not that easy. And yeah, that's right, but actually, it doesn't work like that for all of us. And you can find it a bit patronising as well. And yeah, I kind of I really str... I was like, I don't want people to think I'm being really patronising, I want to be helpful. And I think you need that kind of transparency and that authenticity. And I guess, because... so I was working in, when I went back from maternity leave, I went back to working in CAMS and so I felt there was a bit of distance between my client group that I work with and what I was sharing, and I feel I have to be very mindful of boundaries. I work with teenagers, of course, they're Googling me and looking at what they can find, but I'm hoping they're just going to look at it and go, well, that's really boring, don't care. Whereas I think, and I think that allows me, in a way I feel it's easier to kind of share a bit more. Whereas I think if I was working with the same client groups that I'm sharing about, I think I would feel I'd have to keep more to myself, like, I wouldn't be able to be as open, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that's interesting, actually, because one of the questions I was going to ask you was around what anxieties you had about starting an Instagram account? Because I think most of us are quite worried about it. So obviously, that kind of difference between the client group that you work with clinically, and the group that you speak to on Instagram help with some of that. You know, what... I mean do you still feel anxiety about posting?

All the time. I think it's different... when I first started I didn't, I mean, I started on maternity leave, I went back to work kind of, so started in the November posting, I went back to work in February, did not tell anyone. I mean I still find Instagram is very much like Fight Club. And I will only talk about it on Instagram, and in the rest of my life when are people like 'oh, I follow you on Instagram', which kind of sometimes happens at races and things these days, and I'm like 'Oh God!' In fact, I, I did... I was speaking on the panel at the National Running Show in May, on a panel on mental health, and I suddenly realised I was walking into a room full of people who might know who I was from Instagram, and this was like, yeah, and I wasa bit like, I never really set out to be famous. Not that I am massively famous, but in that room people going 'I really wanted to come and see you. I'm so pleased'. And I was like, can the ground please swallow me up, I'm probably a massive disappointment!

Yeah, I know. That's really hard. I really relate to that. I'm always really shocked if people have seen my content or heard my podcast. I'm like, what really? I imagined I'm doing this into a vacuum. That's really scary, actually. And that impostor syndrome can come up and be quite powerful at those moments.

Yeah, and then I guess, because thing that, sorry, I went off on a tangent and that's my kind of answer your question about the anxiety. So I just I didn't want anybody to know. I was paranoid the HCPC were gonna come and find me and then we're gonna take my registration away, because I'm definitely blurring all the boundaries. And yeah, I think I mean, I think what helped with that is I have met other psychologists who are doing similar things and being able to have conversations with them. And that's been very helpful, very reassuring. And they're like, you know what, we're all going down together if HCPC are coming after us. And I think seeing people really value my content, I think has been helpful, those messages that say 'd'you know what, I really relate to this, thank you, this is so helpful'. And it reminds you why you're doing it. And I think as psychologists, we are often quite limited and who we can help in the NHS, there's massive waiting lists in private practice. It's the cost of the sessions. Obviously, I'm only one person, who can only see so many people. And so being able to share something that might help more people I think has always been really important to me, which is why I've always been really interested in your podcast, because it's about finding ways to help more people.

Yeah, and I think your account is such a good example of that. Because, you know, knowing the running community as I do, I used to be a really, really keen runner, and still a very keen recreational runner, but I don't race, basically, because I never have time. Or maybe that's the story I'm telling myself, we can address that afterwards. But, but yeah, in that community, there can be a lot of stigma around talking about mental health. And people can use running in either a very healthy way, or a very, very toxic way. And you don't have to spend long at a running club to come across a fair few people who are kind of beating themselves up with their running. And so I think you instantly had a niche audience who really needed you, but crave that anonymity. I wouldn't be surprised if there were tonnes of people following and benefiting from your content, who never ever would've put their hands up and said, I need support with my mental health. So I think it's a really great example of reaching people who wouldn't darken our doors, in the therapy room, NHS or private.

And I completely, I completely agree with with that. And I think a lot of, a lot of what I share more recently is also about trying to challenge that idea that running is therapy, and that actually, yes, it's great, it's a great tool, but also you need to be asking yourself whay are you doing? And are you using it in a healthy way? And is it you know, is it actually, we can have many tools in our toolbox but if you're only relying on one, actually, that one becomes quite toxic.

Yes, I think that was the first post of yours that I saw and I hit follow and I never stopped after that, because it spoke so directly to an experience that I'd had. I mean, being pregnant for a start, my body did not allow me to run much in my pregnancies, which was a shock because there's so much content on there about how you can run through pregnancy. And I could not even though I was a very experienced runner, which was annoying. But I'd also had a really awful injury in my mid 20s, which meant that I couldn't, I couldn't run fast anymore and that's when I realised running was not therapy, and actually my relationship with running had not been that healthy, because suddenly, I realised it was all about numbers and striving and not about being present and all that stuff we might say to ourselves it is about and what it can be about.

And I can completely relate to that as well I think. Before I was pregnant, I was just running six times a week, I was just really trying to clock up the mileage get faster and faster. I kept crashing and burning. So I didn't end up injured, but I was really burning out to the point where I was, you know, wouldn't be able to get out of bed for a week and feeling really awful. And again, I also wasn't able to run when I was pregnant. And that was one of the reasons behind me setting up the account as well. Because I remember being pregnant and barely being able to get out of bed and Runner's World came through the post and there was somebody running with a bump and I was feeling miserable about the fact that I couldn't do anything and there was it being kind of rubbed in my face...

Oh it's the worst feeling.

And I think again, as well, you know, trying to rush out, you know, have your six week check and run a marathon, which I did have a crack at and wouldn't recommend. And I think it is about kind of addressing that, that relationship and actually is it always about getting faster or do you need to take a step back sometimes and actually, now is not a point in my life when I can do these, these things, I think the other time, and I posted quite a bit about it, it was in the pandemic and you could only go out once a wee... once a day. And we had a child that would only sleep if she was being pushed in her pram and so my husband and I were going out once a day, she might be doing that twice, put in the detail Boris, and we were just walking for an hour. So he'd take her in the morning and I'd take her in afternoon so we could get those, because she was only about 14 months, still needed those two naps. And everybody else is like you know, I've gone and done all these miles and run all of this stuff in my one hour of my one trip a day. And I was like, well, I've had to reprioritize and actually, we need to talk about that.

And that's so difficult, isn't it, when if running is your only coping mechanism for dealing with stress, and you have to compromise it, which... and parenthood is all about compromise, and many people's jobs also lead them to need to make a lot of compromise, then it can become a really difficult thing. And it's actually a stressor rather than a stress relief. And I think, I still think you're the only person I've ever seen posting about that. Or certainly putting it so clearly like that.

Yeah, you don't see it, you don't see it very much. And I've seen a few posts about it, but most of it is, you know, trying to push yourself as hard as you can and you know, restricting what you're eating, and you know, all about counting whatever nutritional thing that you fancy counting macros, calories, grams, protein, and kind of micromanaging every part of your life, in order to kind of try and exceed at running and how it can really become an obsession.

Absolutely. And I think on the flip side, you've got lots of mental health accounts, which almost don't acknowledge that kind of dark side of any activity that you do a lot of, because, you know, we both have the experience of kind of taking running to that striving place, and maybe, you know, taking that a bit too far and becoming... I'm not putting words in your mouth, I became obsessional, I was for a long time. But people can equally do that with meditation. You could do that with yoga. I've seen it a lot with yoga, actually. And maybe I've been there myself a little bit with yoga, too, I've maybe got that sort of personality. But I think a lot of what is badged as self care, taken too far goes into this less healthy territory. And that's why I would say your account's worth following, even if you've got no interest in running, because it it talks, yes, about running, but also just about balance in life, and what that is actually like to have a healthy and yeah, balanced approach to life.

Yeah, and I mean, I think that's really important. And you're right, in terms of self, self care can become really obsessional, whatever it is, making sure that you're eating healthily, making sure you know, you have this, I don't know about you, but I often get reels on Instagram that 'this is my morning routine'.

Oh, yes!

You know, I've had my nice la... Oh, gosh, I wish my mornings looked like that with my nice, my nice latte, followed by my morning meditation session, followed by a nice walk in the sunlight, and then I did a bit of journaling. Obviously, you had to get up at 4am in order to do this. And actually, I'm not sure how healthy that is.

No, me neither, you know, I lived like that. I'll be honest. There was a few years where my mental health was not very good, and that is when I live that way. And I don't think that that is healthy. And I think, you know, for me, one of the real big benefits of becoming a parent is not being able to do that anymore. Because it forces me into a bit more psychological flexibility than I ever used to have. But yeah, when I see that I get really concerned, because I know from lived and professional experience, that's pretty unhealthy. And your account is like an antidote to that. And I always think when people ask me for advice about social media, that's the question you've got to ask yourself; Why am I worth following? What's the message that I'm spreading that we're not seeing enough of? And I think yours is a great example because it's so crystal clear what you're saying that is not said enough of.

Yeah, I think, I guess what's really important to me as well is to show what's normal, and what that looks like, because I think there's so much on social media showing you what's 'normal' in inverted commas, that has so much perfectionism in it, and also helping people see that we're human. I think I mean, something I don't talk a lot about on social media, but I've had my own experiences of having to go to therapy, and sitting there being really quite unwell when I was pregnant last time and thinking, I'm sitting here in front of this psychologist, who's clearly got all of her shit together, I have no idea. But you make that assumption that they've got all of their shit together, and you're the only psychologist in the whole world whose world is completely falling apart. And I guess, for me, it felt really important to kind of get that message across that actually, no, we don't always have our shit together all the time, but actually, sometimes we can feel really rough too, and that things can happen. And actually, it's about how we manage it, and about how we can learn to manage it and about kind of sharing, sharing that and that felt really important. After that experience, that felt really important as well, because I got that. And I had to do personal therapy as part of my training, but that felt very different from I've literally lost all of my marbles. I'm slowly going mad here, and I'm now having to sit in front of somebody else. And, and I think it was what I would have needed to see at that time and I hope that for other people, they can see that, too. And that's helpful and helps them feel more able to seek help.

I love that. And I think sometimes we underestimate how important that is. If you imagine being somebody who might have never met a psychologist before, you know, if even we can get stuck in that trap of thinking all the other psychologists are somehow these, you know, perfect human beings, who just glide through life, if we can get trapped in that, it must be so difficult for somebody who's never had any contact with a mental health professional of any sorts, to feel able to open up, seek help get over that all of those barriers to engaging with us that you have to jump through. Because let's face it, to get it through the NHS, or privately, you have to really want it because it's not easy. Yeah, wish it was a bit more easy, but it's, but it's not. So if we can help people see what they're going to get, like the kind of people that they're going to be talking to when they do land in that therapy chair, I think we can really help people overcome those barriers.

Yeah, yeah. And I think I mean, I think those boundaries are really important. And I guess that, for me, is why I feel I'm able to share a little bit more, because the people following me aren't necessarily always going to be the people that I'm working with and that has felt quite important. I know lots of people use social media as a way of trying to create referrals. And I do occasionally get referrals through my social media, through my Instagram, and, and I think for those people it's very helpful to know who they're working with and I always set out really clear boundaries in the contract with them. But I think from my point of view, knowing that actually, that isn't my main referral source, isn't my main client group, and so I can offer something to people that's helpful and by sharing my story, or bits of my story, and maybe cross some of those boundaries in a way that I wouldn't do in a therapeutic relationship.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I'm thinking, you know, my cogs are turning because a lot of people listening to this will be using social media to promote their private practice or an online course that they're creating, something along those lines. So in a sense, it can feel quite different because you've got those kind of two different foci, focuses, whatever the plural is. But I was wondering, how is how is your private work developing at the moment? Because I know that you've got, is it Marathan Psychology? Is that your private practice name?

That is my private practice, because I couldn't come up with a name, all the good ones were taken, and I thought, let's just go with something that fits with my Instagram, because that was growing at the time and that will do.

I really like it.

And, and I think, I guess, kind of, so my private practice I, there were consultants that I already knew through working in the NHS, who were working privately who send me referrals. I get referrals through insurance companies, and just kind of through word of mouth, I guess, kind of a way that most people get referrals. You don't have social media. And then I get, I get a few through Instagram I think, but not that... it's hard to tell because I don't think people always admit that's where they find me from.

Oh, good point. I think there's two important points in that, actually. Firstly, that social media is never a great source of referrals, even for people who have huge audiences on social media, that's actually not where we look for a therapist. So I'd never recommend it as a referral activity, I'd never, I'd never recommend it for that purpose really. What it is quite good for, though, is developing an audience for more of those passive income products, whether that's a book or an online course, or something a little bit different. So have you got anything like that planned, do you think one day?

So I do have something... basically when, my idea when I moved into private practice was to, you know, do lots of stuff like that. But then, you know, you find yourself waylaid by referrals and want to help all the people that are contacting you. And also, I have a three year old, or a two year old at the time, who decided that actually, she was going to stop sleeping for a bit, because that would be fun. And just, and we moved house, and so the last 18 months have been a bit hectic, which is fine, because I'm not in a hurry. But I do have plans to do some workshops on a monthly basis. And so my thinking would be that, that audience would be from Instagram. And so that would be on really basic things like thinking about your understanding of thoughts, and understanding body image and stuff like that, thinking about people who are following me and what they might need and what they might benefit from. And also bearing in mind that, you know, NHS waiting lists are just going, you know, years and years long, and lots of people who need help or want help, are not meeting thresholds to get the help and can't really afford it privately. And so being able to offer some kind of skill stuff that's a bit more in depth, than what I can offer through kind of Instagram, I think, is kind of what I'm thinking about, and then maybe I might be able to turn them into online courses. I mean, I know you talked about business plans and knowing what you're doing, and I'm absolutely not following any of that, I'm completely making it up as I go along and see where this ends up!

Yeah, that's not a bad way to go about it, I think it really depends what you need. So when we're doing business planning, I always get people to sit down and think about what they need, like them and their family first. So if what you need is income, then you've got to be really strategic about your time like that. Because, you know, you've got to pay your bills. But if you've already got a successful private practice, you've already got an NHS role that's paying the bills, or you've got some other source of income, then actually that frees you up to really get to know the people that you want to serve. And it sounds like that's what you're doing an amazing job of connecting with people on Instagram, learning about them, they're learning from you, obviously. But you're also really getting to know what do they respond to, what do they want more of, what do they need more of? So when you do create something, it's going to almost be in collaboration with that community, rather than this kind of top down, I think I know what you need trap that we can sometimes fall into. So there's nothing wrong with that at all. I only, I know I can sometimes advocate a bit of a strategic approach. But that is much more for when you know, you've got to make X amount this month from your private practice, then we'll go all in for the strategy. But I love the exploratory nature of what you're doing. It's lovely.

Just not very strategic.

So I suppose that brings me on to another question that I had for you. Well, two actually, two really important questions that I've got to ask you, that I just know that some of my listeners will kick me if I don't. Firstly, the one probably you get asked all the time, but I'm going to ask you anyway. How on earth do you find time to do this? How do you create the time because you're running, you're mumming, you're psychologisting, how are you carving out this space?

Um, I annoy my husband a lot! He's like 'Are you on Instagram again?!' I think, I guess I think I probably am somebody who just finds it quite easy, which is really annoying, and probably not the right answer, but I can't, I wouldn't know how to teach anybody else how to do it, which is probably not very helpful. I think it's something, I will just get an idea and I'll write it down, and I guess it's something I find I'm thinking about a lot at the back of my mind all the time, and I might kind of have ideas and kind of just jot them down and then think about how I can turn it into a post. Sometimes I've got ideas for a theme and I'll try and kind of cover different points in those themes. I'll see what other people are doing and think, oh, well, nick, that idea. Yeah, so I guess it's just something that's kind of constantly worrying in the back of my mind. And I think I'm somebody who... yeah, I don't officially have ADHD because I've never actually been for an assessment, but I've worked a lot with ADHD. I've done my doctoral dissertation on ADHD and I managed to break the computer doing my own QB test when I wanted to have a go, which apparently might be indicative that I might be somewhere. And I think that means that I sort of jump between different things all the time, and I'm quite distractible. So I probably have lots of different things on the go all the time, which can, I think in the case of Instagram is may be quite helpful, but probably in terms of lots of other things like replying to emails, it is maybe not helpful, but I guess it's something I can sort of turn to my advantage. I don't know if that's a helpful answer or not.

I think it's really good to be truthful, actually. Because, you know, there's so many reasons that I think I really relate to your content, and that is one of them. But I think it's really good to acknowledge that actually, for you having the ideas isn't the difficult bit, that comes easily for you. Do you find... have there been any challenges around the tech, like learning how to shoot the reels? Because you do some quite complicated stuff on there. Is there anywhere that you've learned how to do that, or did you just pick it up on the go?

So I am, I've talked about this on another podcast. So I saw a real somewhere that said, and I can believe it, that actually, people's attention spans are really short. And if you have a moving background, so every sentence, you change the background, you're more likely to hold people's attention. And so I was like, and I'd seen other content where you know, people are getting ready and doing something, and I was like actually, I can be that in terms of getting ready for a run. So I might have an idea of what I want to say, what I've learned is I have to write it down, because if I try and memorise what I'm saying that I just stumbled over my words and I forget it, so I've got it written down each sentence, then that means I can do it a bit better. But I can do that, you know, as I'm getting ready to go out for a run or as I'm running at different points, or as I'm getting ready to start my day. And then that means that, so it doesn't take a lot of, it's quite a simple idea, it doesn't take a lot of planning. Obviously, if everybody starts doing the same thing I'll know who's listening to your podcast! Um, so I guess I think there is a bit of learning, there's a lot of practice.

Yeah, cuz for me, the things that get me sort of slowed down and tripped up, and if I'm honest, I get bored and impatient with, is stuff like, you know, setting up a little tripod with my phone, when I'm doing something and then having to move it like two seconds later. Have you found any kind of shortcuts that have got you over that? Or is it just the case of practice makes perfect?

And so I just have different places where might pop up, where I know that it's got like a good angle. And then I just use the same things over and over again.

I think that's a good tip, actually setting things up so that you know, this location works, that location works. And so you don't have to kind of stack up your books every time. That's clever.

Yes, I just I will just use the same things over and over again. I guess that's it. And so, and I've got like a fancy little ring light with a little holder on it for my phone that moves around. It was like £10 from Tiger if anyone else is looking. Yeah, but yeah, just really kind of simple, simple things, I think. And then you can just use those same angles, because you know how it works.

I think that's really helpful. I think, investing that 10 pounds or whatever in the little stand with the ring light and taking half an hour maybe to set up a few different places in your house where you know the angle works, that could be the difference between people doing it and not doing it. I think especially for me, I'm literally writing that down, I'm going to do it, because I haven't thought to do that. And it is, that's the side that always trips me up.

And I guess it's a kind of, um, so I don't really I don't really think about these things, which is why I think I may find it very hard to explain to other people, because I just, I just, I'm able to do it. I also have stopped worrying about what I look like. In my head, this is going to people like invisible vacuums, so I don't really think about these things. Yeah, whereas I know lots of people spend ages putting makeup on and worrying about how they look.

I think it depends what your message is, doesn't it, whether that matters or not, that there are some brands were looking a certain way matters. And there are other brands where it might be more helpful for people to see that you don't always look a certain way. I remember with, when I had my physical therapy room, which I really miss. But I always used to go for a run in the middle of the day, and my afternoon clients... I would have a shower, but I'm very, very pale. And so when I have, you know, gone for a hard run, I'm then purple for the next five hours. And there's nothing I can do about it, you know, I can put makeup on, but it just burns through. And it's really obvious that that's what I've done. And I used to be really embarrassed about it until one of my clients said to me, I'm really glad that you role modelled that for me, because you're always telling me that if what I need is to exercise in the middle of the day that I should, but that means I have to look like a mess at work and you look like a mess at work. I was like 'Thanks!' But it was true.

And I also use a filter sometimes as well.

I don't know how to do that. I've got so much to learn! Yeah, I've never managed to use a filter that hasn't like looked very strange. I've never successfully used one that I've been happy with.

I mean, filters are much better at putting makeup on than I am. So sometimes I just cheat and... I try to be as authentic as possible and be like, you know what, you shouldn't care what you look like, and then sometimes you do it, some days I'm like, no, no, grab my filter.

We're all humans. We're all human. But that brings me on actually to another question for you. And how do you keep on top of what's working on Instagram? Because I often see you posting something which like, oh, I know that that's a trend, and she's done that really well. But how did you find out that it was a trend?

For some reason, I get lots of reels showing up in my page, homepage and that are giving trend ideas, you know, all these like social media marketing?

Yeah, I get quite a lot of them.

I don't really follow that many of them. But quite often, I guess, because I will stop and look at them, I get more and more of them showing to me, so there's usually two or three every time I have a scroll through. So if I see an idea I'll pinch it, or if I see an idea that somebody else is doing and I quite like it, then I'll pinch it. I'm not afraid of plagiarism.

No, I think Instagram is a place not to be concerned about that, isn't it? I mean, there are...

I won't steal people's words, but I might nick their idea.

Yeah, I mean, and there are accounts, like you said, who are dedicated to showing you what ideas are doing well at the moment. Is there anyone, you said you're not really following that many of them, so there might not be but is there anyone that you'd particularly recommend people to have a look at?

No, I was gooing to say, it's really hard as I'm not really following them, it's just whoever kind of just shows up in my in my feed. But I think if you were just a sach, like social media manager or real trends, or you can, and the other thing that I tend to do is you choose the trending sound, it will have that little arrow that's going up in the bottom of your page. So I will go through reels and I will be thinking about an idea or point I want to make and then I'll be looking for a sound that might match it that's got the little trending arrow, because you're more likely to get more views, if the sound is trending.

That's a really good tip. So where do we find that arrow? Just recap that for me.

So if you, if you're looking on Instagram and looking on reels, it'll have whatever the sound is it's playing at the bottom, and next to it will have like a little like up arrow in the bottom corner, bottom left corner.

And then you can save that and use it in your own reel and that will get it more views because it's like on a trend.

Yeah.

Yes, I think I've seen that little arrow before and be like, what does that mean? That's helpful. That's really helpful. And I think what I'm taking from that is that actually we have to just spend more time on Instagram, if you want to create good Instagram content you've got to spend time consuming Instagram content.

Yeah, you do. And I guess that's where my kind of my complete general lack of focus comes in handy because between clients, I'll be having a little scroll seeing what else is, what other people are doing. I think, I mean at the moment, I've actually just had to step away, and I'm having a bit of a break from Instagram. And I also think that's important as well, because it can be so just all consuming, and then you're looking at other people's content, and you're like, well, mine is rubbish, isn't it? So I guess that's the flip side is, yeah, you I spend a lot more time on it, but I do also find that actually, I have to take, at the moment, I'm having to take some time away, because otherwise, you just, it can really put you into a spiral where you feel... it can make you a bit obsessive, so it can fit with those traits that you know, got me into a hole with running, get you into a hole with Instagram, and I'm very aware of that, I'm very mindful of that, and so I know that, you know, usually I will switch off over the weekends and just try not to go on it. If I'm not looking my husband sometimes put screentime limits on it. And yeah, I think, I guess the other thing is, yeah, I'm mindful about who I follow, and actually, I don't follow that when you're there psychologists these days, because I just find myself comparing myself to them. Which I know I shouldn't, because actually, what I do is very, very different to a lot of other psychologists out there. But you're still sitting there, and I guess that's why I still wanted to be on there, because I'm like, there's all these other legit psychologists that are posting like legit psychology stuff, and here's me prattling on about running and how my child got up at half five this morning.

I really relate. And the thing is, some of those psychologists might be listening to this, and they also feel that way about your content. We're so good at compare and despair in our profession, that I really like what you're saying there about putting boundaries in place for yourself, the way that I've managed it for myself, and, you know, I also take breaks, and guess what, nothing dies when you take a break. I've actually never found, I've always had to take breaks from social media, and I've never found a devastating impact on my overall marketing activities. So long as when I'm doing it, I'm doing it with good quality stuff. I think that's a much more important. But anyway, that's probably another episode. But I think the way that I manage the boundary is I consider it to be a work activity, so I decide what hours I'm willing to give to social media as a work activity, and then over the weekend I am not willing to work, so I will not look at my social media, which can be really hard, because sometimes some really cool stuff happens over the weekend and I can get that feeling, just like everybody does, of like almost your phone glowing at you like you really want to look at it, you really want to touch it to see what was going on. But I quite consciously tell myself that I'm not allowed to do that at the weekend. It's hard though, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's I would, it's funny because I see it more as a hobby, and I guess it's because it's linked to my hobby. Which is why I probably don't mind spending as much time on it as I do because it's something that I enjoy. I think that's the other thing, is I enjoy doing it, I enjoy coming up with ideas, I enjoy being creative, I enjoy sharing things and so it doesn't feel like that much of a chore. I guess it's that compare and despair that I have to be very mindful of and know when to step away from it. And I think if it's not something you enjoy, and not something that you're having fun with, then actually maybe it's not for you, and like you said, I'm not sitting here getting millions of referrals through my Instagram. And I know I often see, I often see things on like Facebook, psychology private practice Facebook groups saying do social media, you'll get lots of referrals. Well I'm just gonna put my hands up and say, actually, I hardly get any that way.

Yeah, and your content is really good, really engaging and super specialists as well. So you're like ticking all the good marketing boxes. But I just think, you know, sometimes we just need to do that perspective taking piece and think right, if I was looking for a psychologist, would I look on social media? If I was looking to book a therapy session? And it's just not, we look on Google, or we go through recommendations more than anything else, we go for recommendations, but if you haven't got a recommendation you're gonna go Google or directory site.

I wouldn't be looking on Instagram.

No, no, but looking for things like online courses, books, what podcasts to listen to that, that sort of stuff I do get from social media, so we can use it but at the moment, the way that the y'know market is, I wouldn't say we can use it for getting referrals in our therapy practices. Maybe some people do, I'm happy to be proved wrong, if you're at home and most of your referrals come from social media, then do get in touch, and we can chat about how that works and what makes that work, because I'm fascinated, but that hasn't been my experience. Okay, well, thank you so much for sharing all of that. I think there's a lot of people who are worried about setting up an Instagram account for all the reasons that we've talked about, they're worried about the boundaries, they're worried about what other people think, that compare and despair is maybe looming large in their minds, and I really hope that this conversation might help them sort of jump over that and start spreading their messages that are worth following. So if people want to follow you, where should they find you?

So you find me on Instagram as @the.running.psychologist

Brilliant, and they absolutely should. I couldn't recommend your content more highly. I love it. Yeah, I'm always there watching. Brilliant. So thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you very much for having me.