Alison Thompson, Sunny Steps Loves to Dance.

Thanks, Allie or Alison.

The listening audience is wondering why I'm going back.

There isn't two people and Allie doesn't have a split personality.

She goes between Allison and Allie.

So we're going to have some fun with that.

And thanks for appearing on the Adventures in the Heart of Children's Book Authors podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Oh, my pleasure.

Allie has written a children's book.

As you heard, Sunny Steps loves to dance.

And for me it has a couple of unique twists.

And I'm not just talking about dance.

I really look forward to this conversation.

Alison, before we get into the details of your book and your children's book authorship, can you tell us what being a children's book author means to you?

For me, it's taking my sort of creative spirit, if you like, to a whole new direction.

I have been a dancer all my life.

I have then gone into teaching and choreography and this was just another sort of string to my bow, if you like.

So it just took me off into a new direction.

I'm still being creative.

It's still ticking all those boxes for me.

And it's about expressing dance, but now in a different form, but through the the story of Sonny Steps and his daddy.

So it just leads me into a whole new area.

So I'm very new at this.

I'm very this is a first time author moment for me, but it's really exciting.

Fantastic.

Tell us a little bit about the inspiration and the origin story about Sunny Steps Loves to Dance.

What was the inspiration behind the book and how did it all get started and why?

So it came about during lockdown when we were all shut up at home and not really being able to do a lot.

As I said before, I've danced all my life and I have taught.

And over 20 years ago I started a dance class and I called it Sunny Steps and it was for two to four year olds.

I still run it now.

It's a creative dance and movement class where we go on different adventures each week and we do different types of movement and dance.

But if I take it back even further, I started doing it with my own children in our playroom, the way I would play with them.

We would read books, we would play, but we'd also go on adventures through movement and pretend we were tigers or elephants or flying around the kitchen or holding onto a kite and pretending that the wind was blowing, doing all these kind of things.

And it was then that some friends of mine said, well, we don't play with our Kids like that.

Will you do a class?

So I put a few ideas together, and I suddenly realized I had about two pages worth of ideas that I could put into a class.

So Sunny Steps, the class was born, and it was just my friends who would come, so it didn't really feel like a real class.

And then suddenly real customers came in, and it was suddenly like, oh, goodness, this is a real thing.

But I continued to play with my children in the same way, and as I say, in lockdown, when everything stopped and I tried to do my classes over Zoom, which was quite hilarious, really, because obviously I couldn't be with the children, and I could see them in their living rooms and the children would be jumping off sofas, and I'd be thinking, is Mummy there?

She there?

I don't want to.

Yeah, it was a really interesting time, but it really still, I think it just brought us all together.

Just doing anything on Zoom was just so lovely.

And then I. I had the idea of doing a book and writing about it, and I went through lots of ideas of how Sunny Sets would be, whether it was children going to a class, whether it was animals, whether it was just something.

And then my husband just said to me, why don't you make Sunny Steps a character?

I literally had a whole light bulb moment.

It was like, oh, my goodness, he's a little boy and he's going to be with his daddy.

And it took us, but it took me back to how I had started it with my children in the playroom.

And the reason I made him a boy was because I just feel like even today, we need to break through those sort of gender barriers a bit and stop the kind of.

Boys are tough and boys play football and boys do this, and boys can draw and boys can sing and boys can dance and boys can do all sorts of things, as can girls.

But that's how it came to be.

So suddenly.

I have a book with a second one, hopefully next year.

Terrific.

And it's interesting because I'm always looking for a point of difference.

It's sharing ideas with aspiring children's book authors also, and people thinking, how do I get outside the box or outside the book cover and do something different?

And I thought, wow, this is incredible what you've done.

And.

Oh, you're welcome for the audience.

Is that.

Allison, of course, just told us her story about how she started her.

It's called Sunny Steps, and it's a dance school for toddlers.

You have a toddlers dance school business, and I love how you tied the name And I'll get.

Give your husband a big hug for suggesting it because it's brilliant and maybe you should be in marketing.

I have asked him several times to quit his job and just come and help me.

That's such a great idea, tying it into your business's name.

I'd like to delve into that just a bit more because this is.

I've never run into someone who's actually taken this approach and I thought, wow, this is such a neat idea to share and then for other people to think about.

So, based on your establishment business, how are you developing your children's book business?

So it started, I think it felt very much hand in hand to start with.

I felt like I couldn't have the book without the class.

And it was.

They were just tied together.

But it's now been out just over a year and I realized that actually the book is standing on its own, which for me is what I wanted anyway, because at some point I will stop teaching or start doing the class.

And I wanted then to lean more into the book side of it.

Okay.

So it's quite nice that I've got that base.

And I feel like it's a really strong base for the.

For where the book has come from.

It didn't just drop out of nowhere.

It's actually formed from my own personal experience with my children and then the class and now I have the book.

So I feel like the book is taking its own life, as I think any author would say.

It's.

It's an absolute huge learning curve for me.

I naively thought, I've done a book and everyone likes it, and here I am, world.

The sales.

Absolutely.

And it was a bit like me sat there going, where are they?

I don't know, realizing, oh, my goodness, you've got to hustle.

You got to really network and talk to people and get on Instagram and.

Which is, in a way, I'll admit, my biggest nightmare.

I'm so not a social media person, so that has been really hard.

Tell us a little about.

Do you sell your book at the dance school?

I do.

If people.

I'm a very sort of soft sell.

I don't push it on them.

It's very much.

It's there if you want it.

It's obviously on Amazon.

It's online on a couple of bookstores here in the UK on Waterstones and Blackwells, and I've got a few sort of independent shops near where I live that are selling it really nicely.

And I've done a few kind of Book fair type things where you meet and greet and everyone says, oh, I love your book, it's so nice.

And then you go away having sold maybe three.

It's an ongoing hard thing.

So I think, like you said at the beginning, it's about getting people to know me, getting to know my book.

Why would they pick my book on the shelf?

What are they going to get for my book?

As opposed to Y and Z?

Said you sell it at some of your local bookstores, which is awesome.

And we've been fortunate too, because ours takes place in the Rocky Mountains.

We're getting support from bookstores and stores in the Rocky Mountains because we get tourists coming in and they want a momento.

They, they bring their family and then all of a sudden have something they can take home with them.

And yeah, so I know exactly what you're saying.

So are you getting any?

So I'm going to do this kind of in reverse because I said, okay, from your dance school, do you sell any books?

So from your sales in those local bookstores, are you getting any dance clients?

Interestingly, no.

It feels like they're in two very separate lanes now, which I always thought it would, it would blend a bit more.

I thought it would be hand in hand.

The class is a great platform to sell the books, but there's, I think there's been a big shift in the way that Pence are either looking to buy something or how they want their children to interact and have different sort of resources.

They'll all say, how wonderful, how lovely.

Oh, it's gorgeous.

Well done, you.

And then they won't necessarily buy it.

And I don't know if it's a financial thing.

I don't know if it's a just.

I don't know.

Parents now just seem so busy.

Not enough time to start.

My class is very much a parent join in participation class.

I encourage them.

I say, you know what?

We've got so much to do.

There's always the washing to put on, there's always jobs to do, emails, banking, you name it.

Whatever we're doing, you bet.

Just 45 minutes to be with your child and just pretend you're an elephant.

Or pretend and you're melting like a block of ice.

It's fun, it's silly.

It's only us in the room, no one's looking.

Let's all be daft.

Let's just do it because it's fun.

And if the children see us doing, just create that imagination, that bonding, that time together, saying, I'm going to Put my phone down.

Because that's one thing I would say.

I'm all guilty of it.

Phones are wonderful because they connect us, but they are.

We should all go down the rabbit hole, can't we?

With social media?

Easily.

And all of a sudden, an hour's gone.

And I don't even know what young parents do now, because I just think.

That'S why I loved your book.

And I was thinking, now when I asked you that question, have you done any actual book signings at those bookstores encouraging people to then go to your studio and join your classes?

Of course.

Yeah.

No, I have done.

And I've done school visits and preschool visits as well, where I've gone.

And we've all got up and we've done the book.

We've actually done it.

We've stood up, parents included.

Let's get up.

Let's do it.

So much fun.

Yeah.

I think they're always a bit surprised.

They feel like they're there for a reading and they're just going to sit and the children are going to partake.

And I'm thinking, nope, come on, everyone, up we get.

And we'll do all the movements and do all the actions.

And then they can see.

It's like we're jumping into the book.

You're doing it.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's a mixture, I think anyone would say.

You go to these things and yeah, it's like, half will buy the book, half will go, well, that's great.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Yes.

And it's interesting you should say that, Alison, because we're about to launch our second book in our book series.

Thank you.

It's called hi Jinx from the Big Head Folk Music Festival.

Oh, fun.

It's actually based on a true story with my three of my grandchildren, where we went to the oldest folk festival in Alberta, and it was such a wonderful time.

Three of my grandchildren encouraged me to help them write a book, which we did.

And we're actually launching the book at the folk Festival on Sunday, August 3rd.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So it's going to be so much fun.

But to your point, the reason I bring this up is that the folk festival just reached out to me and said, can you give us a couple of sentences?

Because we want to put in our program, what exactly are you going to do besides the book reading?

And I do have several ideas, but during the book reading, there's a couple of instances where we want the children to actually participate as I'm reading the book, but I've never done this before.

So it's going to be fun to actually, at that certain moment on that certain page is to get them to get up.

Because one of them is actually getting them up and wiggling their butt and.

Great.

I love that.

And the other one is to actually get them to do a big drum roll.

Just seeing how to get that as you're reading.

Get that incorporated and happen.

Yeah.

Very excited about that.

I think that's the thing, because I think for me, movement, I think it's just innate in me, that whole sense of rhythm and movement and finding the neurotism in the way that you go through your day.

I think I am a dancer through and through.

And I feel like that has just.

It's just still there.

So for me, a book like this, My Sunny Steps Us to Dance.

Yours sounds fantastic.

The whole thing of getting up, moving.

Because also, not all children like to sit still when they jump around.

They always do that.

Exactly.

So to say right now we're going to sit and read.

And there are some books that are perfect for that.

You need that quiet time.

You need that sitting, sit still.

Gonna read it and really follow the words and follow the pictures and all that.

And I get that.

For me, it was just.

I wanted to get movement into my book to see how a father and son can have so much fun together.

And they literally go out of their playroom and into this wonderful world because they're suddenly not in the playroom, they're in the jungle or they're on earth in the sky with the clouds.

And like you said, creating that interactiveness.

Because like you were saying, the parents come to your studio and you get them involved also.

Which.

Yes.

Which is fun.

Because then you know what?

And that's what I'm hoping to do here.

Because we're going to be in the kids section at the folk music festival and a lot of the parents or grandparents will be with these young children.

So now I'm gonna also have to think about.

Okay, I want the parents or grandparents to get up and wiggle.

I want them to help do the drum roll.

Yes.

So we'll see what happens.

But I'm excited.

That's how it goes.

You could.

You could do it like, right, kids, I want to hear your drum roll.

Grown ups, let me hear your drum roll.

Let's put it all together.

That.

Oh, yeah, great idea.

I'm gonna.

I'm gonna steal that.

Is that okay?

No.

Okay, then it stretches it out a bit more.

Then it's just.

Now I can hear you get louder can you do it quieter?

Can you do it faster?

Can you do it slower?

Oh, terrific.

Play around with it.

I think it'll be fun.

Oh.

So I wanted to talk to you about your publishing approach.

So each of us has a unique publishing approach because I talk to people.

You're either an indie publisher, which is someone who publishes under their own company name or whatever name you come up with.

A self publishing generally is where you're still like the general manager of your book, but you actually hire someone to publish the book.

And a lot of people call that a hybrid publisher.

And then we have the traditional publisher where you get a literary agent and you try and find a publisher to publish your book.

So I noticed you use Cran Thorpe Milner Publishing.

So could you tell us a bit about the publisher?

Are they a hybrid publisher?

Oh yeah.

So in this instance, the way I started it, because again, it was that whole thing as a first time author, it was the sort of do I need an agent?

Do I go straight to a publisher?

What do you do?

There was no sort of manual on it.

You kept asking to Google and you try and find out here and then you ask people, do you know you're in publishing?

Kind of do you know, just all this kind of thing.

So I tried to start with a few agents, didn't get anywhere.

Then there were a few publishing houses, I just tried, I thought I'm just going to see.

And two of them wrote that and they said, it's really lovely book, it's just not right for us.

But we really liked your book.

And I just thought I'm going to hold onto that thread because I.

They've said that it was good.

So that's a real excellent.

I'm gonna go with that.

And then I sat on it for a while.

Cause I thought I don't know what to do with it because again, you're stuck with it.

And then I came across Cranthorpe Milner and I started looking into what they did.

And then this hybrid kind of publishing kept coming back.

There were a few of the publishing houses that were doing that.

So basically it is self publishing as you said, but it's having them hold my hand through it.

So as an unknown, I'm not a famous person.

So they're not going to go, absolutely, come on in, we're going to take you out for dinner and sign a deal.

And that's good.

It's just little old me.

But equally I look at it that at this end you've got the kind of the indie publishers that are doing it all themselves.

And I thought, I don't know what I'm doing, I wouldn't know where to begin.

Over here, the famous people, that's not me.

So I'm in the middle.

So it's basically having them hold my hand, set things up.

They've put the whole template, getting it into Waterstones, onto Amazon, getting it at Blackwell's.

I've obviously done the legwork in terms of the little shops in between, a little independent shops.

Absolutely, all that kind of thing.

Or book fairs or preschools and posting on Instagram.

That's all on me.

So it's yes, they've published my books but then it's almost like they hand the bat on over and then it's up to me to promote.

They can try this or that, but it's very much.

You are still doing it a lot yourself.

Which I think for me going into it now a second time, I'm a lot more aware of what's expected of me, what to expect from them.

Again, naively I thought, oh, they've published it and I'm going to sit back and they can and the checks are.

Going to roll in.

Like how much?

It's like pennies coming.

But it's, but it's fine because I, my aim to start with was to just get a book out there.

Like I said, I've done so many steps to class for over 20 years.

So when you've done something for that long, you want something to show.

Because if I stopped it tomorrow, yes, other than a bag full of props and various other things that I use in class, I've got nothing to say.

This is what I've done.

So I wanted to go physically I've got this book, here it is, here it is.

And the second one coming and there's hopefully going to be a third one and that will complete my sort of sunny steps, ideas and things like that.

So as a self published author, I'm curious, I'm not familiar with Cran, Thorpe Milner, but can you tell us you're printing on demand so you just get a hold of them, they print some books for you, depending on how many you want and then you have get your pricing from them, then you create a wholesale price and you go to your, the local bookstores that you're selling in and then you have a price for them, is that correct?

Yes, exactly.

So I basically I got like my stack of books so that I had my stack so I could say what if I'm in class I can sell them.

If I'm at a preschool, I can sell them.

If I'm at a book fair, I could sell them to the shops.

I could say, look, this is the price, we can discuss that, negotiate it and then they can sell it on and so forth.

So I've done that in a few places and.

And equally sent a lot of free ones, asking people to review it and.

And they kindly have, and vice versa.

I've had a few books back myself to I can.

It's just, I've noticed with the author community on Instagram is actually really supportive and everyone shouts everyone else out and really bigs them up and it's really lovely.

I think I've been opened up and it's wonderful because it's people all across the world, you never get to meet them.

You see them on their little Instagram for sure logo or whatever.

Yes, you get to follow them and they follow you and then other people come into it and yeah, it's such a great community.

So, yes, I want to pick up on what you said about.

Now that you've got some experience at being self published through a hybrid publisher, I'm curious, what are you going to change differently for the second book?

What are you going to take on more of the role, some of the things that they did for you?

I think if anything is about managing my expectations, like having a really good grip on really how this is going to go and it's not going to rock to number one overnight and it's not, you know what I mean?

And just who I need to be promoting it to.

I think I just suddenly assumed, oh, we could ask this celebrity or that celebrity to try and endorse it all because they've got children, they would love it, this, that and the other and just being a little bit more realistic.

And with that I feel like I can do more.

Whereas it's taken me, I think, the past sort of six months or so to really get to grips and realize the avenues I can go myself.

So I would take that on.

I wouldn't be waiting for them to do it.

And I feel a bit silly in a way, thinking that's what would happen.

But when you've got nobody telling you otherwise or whatever, and I guess I.

Had an author tell me, she said, you know what?

I put together this great promotional book package.

I sent it to Oprah and I was waiting for the phone call.

Guess what?

The phone call from Oprah never came.

She didn't get that.

And the other thing that I always say to people, because I'm learning all about this.

Being a children's book author also, is that you become an overnight success, but it takes 20 years.

Oh, yes.

So definitely.

And to your point, you're learning.

It's not instant fame and fortune.

It definitely takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears.

It's a lot of efforts.

There were certain people that I'm following, and I see their posts and I think, my goodness, they must be.

They're posting like mad and promoting and there really isn't a sort of a day off from it.

And.

Yeah, and it's at the big thing, I find.

And I don't know about you, Allison, but I am finding that a lot of us belong to the children's book authors community.

But we're all talking to each other, which is nice to have the support, but at the end of the day, yeah, you need to take it deeper.

You need to actually get a reader, the children's reader and the parents, great grandparents, and.

Absolutely.

That's not as easy as people think.

It's not.

Because you feel like you're slightly preaching to the converted, because everyone will go, absolutely.

I feel your pain.

I'm doing the same.

Well done.

You keep going and it's great, and it does keep you going.

I want to talk to you a little bit about your illustrator because your book is so fun and it's got all of these different adventures of dad and Sonny dancing.

Yeah, yeah.

Tell us about your illustrator and could you provide some insight into why did you choose this illustrator?

This is the thing with Cranport Milner.

I think that they asked me to show them which kind of illustrations do I like.

So I looked in a few books and I had a look and I saw this style.

I like this style.

I gave the whole brief of how I wanted Sunny to look and how I wanted Daddy to look, which, on a side note, interestingly, and I hadn't realized it, but Sunny is.

Looks very much like my son when he was 2.

I hadn't put the two together.

And then another friend, she said to me, that looks like your dad in the 70s.

And I looked at that.

Oh, my gosh.

There's some weird subliminal thing going on there.

I love it.

But I suppose you pull these ideas because this is how I pictured them to be and everything else.

And so Canthorpe paired me with Greg, who, actually, I've completely forgotten his last name is.

I do apologize.

But our correspondence was all through email, so I would give a brief, he would write back, he would do sketches, send them to me, I would say, oh, I need that to be bigger.

That could be smaller.

Can we have that?

This darker?

Can we move that over there?

Blah, blah, blah.

It just was literally that, the final moment where it was, oh, should we have them looking this way, that way?

Should we have them piggybacking?

Should we have this.

Just all the final details.

Did you send them any photos of certain circumstances?

You said reminded of you, of what your dad might have looked like in the 70s?

Yeah.

Was there any pictures of your dad from the 70s?

No.

It was only when the book came out and I was like, oh, my word.

I had two lots of friends.

I love it.

That's your son.

But it's.

But yeah, I wanted them to be barefoot because if you're at the home, in the playroom, you often are just barefoot, looking a little bit scraggly.

You're at home, it's fine.

You're just playing.

And it's about getting down with your child and not worrying about looking perfect and Right.

Just.

It's just about having fun and being that child yourself.

Because if it's fun, it just is fun.

And if you can get over the embarrassment, because I see parents in my classes who.

You can see this sort of embarrassment of what I'm asking them to do, whether it's being thunder and lightning or it's.

It's.

Come on, it's just us.

No one's looking.

Well, you know what they say, one of the ways to live a long life is to have younger friends.

That's how I see my grandchildren, as my younger friends, because we ski together, we bike together, we.

Oh, fantastic stories together.

Yeah.

So they keep me young at heart.

And that's exactly.

That's a lot.

And you then don't lose that in a chart because you see how much fun it is to be with them and to hang out with them and to share their interests.

It's really about sharing an interest, which is exactly what Daddy and Sonny are doing.

Yeah.

Animated movies with them.

And people say, how could you sit through an animated movie?

I am really as much involved in the movie as my grandkids.

Absolutely.

Yeah, for sure.

I used to love.

I loved watching all the kind of animations and all the cartoons and everything.

And I don't think it ever really leaves you.

My children in their 20s and they still will revisit.

Oh, we watch Moana at the weekend or we want anything.

Just enjoy.

Being a grown up is hard and it's.

There's enough responsibility, isn't there?

You want to Just keep that inner child, keep that youthful approach to life.

No doubt about it.

It keeps us going for sure.

So I want to talk to you about your website because I looked at your website, of course, it's your dance studio, but I want to talk about the evolution of your website since you became a children's book author.

So tell the audience how you.

How that all came together and how you've expanded it and incorporated sunny steps into it.

The website came about obviously, because I was doing the class and I wanted to promote it in, you know, another way so that people could find me, find out more about me a little bit, find out about the class, see where the venues and so forth are.

And then with the children's book, we've added it on as a kind of.

It is an add on.

You can go to it and it links you straight to Waterstones, it links you straight to the bookshop and you can actually, that's it, put it in basket buy, boom, off we go.

So it becomes part of the whole package at the moment of the class and the book.

They're very much in line and it's just another avenue for potential sales.

But potentially just showing people that there is that opportunity to buy a book for your child, that's just a bit different out there.

I guess my big concern was always that I didn't want people to feel like you couldn't look at the book or you couldn't do the book if you didn't know anything about the class.

So I think in that sense I'm not too worried that the book and the class are going in separate pathways.

I think it started off it's to do with the class, but actually I do need the book to stand on its own because otherwise if people think we don't do the class, we don't really know what you're on about.

We don't really know that.

But I think it is a standalone book.

I think you can relate to it.

You can appreciate it and get involved with it without having been to my dance class or seeing what we do in that.

It's just there are overlaps.

I love the connection.

It's a.

It's just a great way to do that.

And if it turns into standalone or not, it doesn't really matter one way or the other because it tends to support your business one way or the other.

Exactly.

And social media, you talked a little bit about your getting comfortable with social media.

So tell us a little bit about your Instagram and Facebook and how are you using that to introduce your book and sell books.

I've struggled with social media, I think, because I grew up in a time where it was probably called showing off.

And to me, in lots of ways, you're going, look at me again, look at me now I'm over here.

And it doesn't sit a hundred percent comfortably with me.

And I've had to get over myself a little bit to go, no, it's important.

It's all about media and production and that's how you're going to sell books.

In this day and age, I'm much more kind of face to face person.

I'd love to talk to you about the book and then hopefully buy the book.

But to reach people, social media is the tool.

So I started off and Facebook and Instagram were both kind of my class and the book.

My class and the book.

And then it was my niece, actually, who is very much on social media and is with her thousands of followers.

She said, auntie, I don't really know what it is you're doing on there.

If I was to look at you and your Instagram, I don't know what it is you're doing.

You have children in your class and looking all happy and they're waving scarves around and looking very jolly.

And then there's a book and I don't really know, so you need to put more of you on there.

Which I was like, oh, no.

But I love it.

I've started a few kind of, I can't do a live.

I'm yet to do a live.

I've got to really build myself up to that.

But I've done videos where it's like me and it takes about a thousand takes to get, oh, gosh, what am I doing?

So I got what she said because it was something.

I looked at it and I thought if somebody came across this page, would they know what it is?

You've got to go, that's what it is.

This person is selling this.

Easy peasy.

It's simple.

I think I was making it too complicated.

So I've made the decision that Instagram will be the but and my Facebook sunnyset's Facebook will be more about the class plus the book, but more the class as well, just so that it's easy for people to see what's what.

Because on Instagram, I think it is more interest about the book.

I don't get people asking me about my class on Instagram.

And to your point, the thing about social media, it tends to be global.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So if I'M staying in Alberta.

You're not going to want to come to my job?

I might like to, but.

Yeah.

I don't have a corporate jet.

No.

I was going to say, what an expensive way to travel.

Yeah, it's exactly.

So I think it was.

Right, noted.

I need.

This is about the book.

This is about promoting the book, because that is the global bit.

That is hopefully somebody in Albuquerque or in Scotland or Wales or wherever the person is.

Oh, but the book, I can get that because I can go online for sure.

But I think just to the way.

I think that a lot of parents shop now.

I think there's this.

And maybe it's just with social media, we're so impatient.

Yes.

So they need to just see it.

Quiet click, one click, boom.

It's.

Do you know what I mean?

I am ever going to a bookshelf.

If you look at Amazon, for example, now it's one click and boom, it's done.

We're so impatient.

Yeah.

We're so impatient to do anything for sure.

So you've got to get that kind of.

This is a book and this is.

It could be fun.

You've got to do this.

So Instagram.

I'm concentrating more on that because.

Yeah, I want to spend a little more time on your book and I want to talk about character development because you've really got two main characters in your book.

So you've got Sonny and his dad.

And I know you mentioned, and I love what you've done here, you want to encourage young boys and their parents to not be afraid of, you know, getting up and dancing and having fun and being an entertainer.

Take us a little bit deeper into your approach to that character development.

I think the moment I saw Sonny steps was going to be a character.

I just knew it was actually.

It was just instantaneous.

It was like, he's a boy and he's going to be a boy and he's going to be with his daddy.

Because I get majority, I would say 90% of people who come into my class are girls with the mum or the grandma or the nanny.

And then I'll get every now and again a dad.

And I've never seen people look more awkward in their lives.

They come in and they're just like, oh, my gosh.

And it's so awkward.

And I try with all my everything, all my being, to just make them feel so welcome, so comfortable, because it's like, you know what?

We're just.

It's just dance.

It's just movement.

Right.

It's whether we're skipping or whether we're stomping or whether we're turning to feed the birds.

And we're just doing beautiful soft, gentle arms which are quite balletic in movement.

Right.

It's movement.

It's, it's.

That's all it is.

But yeah, the dads, I think I've had one dad in all the 20 years is that he came in and my goodness, the man was gung ho.

He was front and center and just.

I love this.

This is so good.

Oh my gosh.

Yes.

You get it.

But for the most night dads can be a bit awkward and a bit.

I've had them sit at the side going, they'll do it on their own.

And I'm thinking, come join.

So waiting for me.

It sounds silly because there was no sort of in depth thing about it.

It was, oh my gosh, he is the boy and he's with his daddy.

So that was, it was just cemented.

It was like.

Let's jump into the theme of your book a bit more.

So let's discuss your theme.

And how would you describe the theme as even an extension of your life?

Well, I suppose because it's been born out of my own experience with my children which felt totally normal.

My husband would come home from work and be like, oh, what are we today?

And I'd be like, today we're, we're doing this, did this.

And it just was.

Yeah, it's just been the way we raised the children.

It's the way we were with the children.

Our house has always been filled with music and dance and creativity in that way.

So it's just.

To me, it's a really natural next step and I would love to think I can still keep teaching for a while yet and still enjoy it and.

But that's the thing.

Yeah.

Movement is so important to you.

It is so important.

Not only your physical well being but your mental well being.

This is the other thing is that I think it's.

It is so important.

It's so good for us.

It's good for mental health.

Ten years from now you'll be teaching at the old folks home.

I am already.

It's one of the things I do.

I already do that.

Yeah.

Do our exercises.

So I want to pick up on that.

On the teaching theme.

Talk to us a bit more about the central teaching.

What's the lesson that you're trying to convey through your book?

I think it's about anything is possible.

Like you can just believe.

Just go for it.

If you my.

When My son was little, he kept telling us, I want to be a cheater when I grow up.

Because he could run.

He ran really fast.

He was really good at running.

And he said, I'm going to be a cheater.

I was like, fantastic, fantastic.

I love that you be a cheater.

If you want to be a cheater, you know, you run fast like a cheater.

It's just indulging.

It's just saying you.

It's acceptable.

I love what you're doing.

If this is how you express yourself, if this is the way you see the world, way that you hear rhythms.

Yes.

I think it's just that, isn't it?

It's just that kind of that heartbeat within us.

That's what I love about children's book authors, is so many positive messages.

And your.

Your message there is right on the button.

Oh, thanks.

Appreciate that.

I know you talked to us about one, possibly two more books in the Sunny Steps book series.

Yeah.

I'd like you to talk about in the beginning and how you've developed.

So I'm interested in.

Could you share your insights into your development and your writing process for your children's books?

Tell us a little bit about that.

So with this one here, Sunny Steps, Luster Dance, I had all the ideas that I wanted to potentially use.

And obviously, you can only fit a certain amount within a book, so you're limited.

You have to cut this bit out.

Yeah.

Because generally a children's book is five hundred to a thousand words.

Exactly.

And also a certain amount of pages and you've got to try and convey beginning, middle, end within that.

Yes.

So I literally looked at the certain ideas that I wanted that I felt went well together and that would link really nicely together.

But equally, with each page turn, I wanted it just to be a.

And then they're.

Oh, they're here.

So there's that.

It's like a whole different thing.

And I think the best one for me is when you turn the page and you're suddenly like autumn leaves.

It's.

No one would have thought that.

No one said, oh, my goodness, autumn leaves.

Here they go.

So it.

For me, I've put those ideas together, they felt cohesive, they felt fun with a little bit of a twist here and there that you didn't expect.

And then on the final page, if you notice that when they look out of the playroom window, they're looking at, like, the ocean and then there's a sailing ship.

So to me, that's where the next story will pick up.

Good for you, besides your own personal experience, like drawing on your own personal experience with your current book and the next couple of books that are coming.

Are you going to conduct any other research into the subject matter or how are you coming up with the content for the books?

So the contents are based on what I have done in my classes.

It's not all of the ideas because I think I. I don't know, we'll see if I can do more, but I've thought three books is a good amount.

So these are the things that I would use themes and ideas I use in my classes and I've just translated them into Sunny.

Not all of the ideas would translate as well, I feel, because that's why it's.

I looked at all the different things I do, from elephants to autumn leaves to feeding the birds to going under the sea, which is essentially what the next one will.

But it's about going under the sea and all the sea creatures that they find, all the different ways to move and all the different things you can find.

So it's.

Yeah.

Slightly different take.

I'm interested.

You talked about this earlier about your.

When you started on this journey and how you measured success.

Because when you look at a business book plan and we talked about that and how you tied it into your toddler dance school, which is cool, but let's delve a little deeper.

Let's take a step back from that.

And what was your original goal?

And after you did the book launch, you went, oh, okay, this isn't exactly what I had envisioned success.

Talk to us about that.

Yeah, that's an interesting point because I think I had to really look at what do I think is successful, what is the success that I was wanting?

And I had to remind myself that my first step with this was I just want to.

I just want to get a book published.

To me that was, we've done it, we've got the book published.

But then of course you go, oh, but hang on, there's more to this.

And then you realize, is it the sales?

Is it the kind of notoriety, Is it the, oh, that's her, that's the author.

It's all this business, you think, no, it wasn't any of that.

I wanted just to get my book published because I want to have this physical hard copy to say in 20 odd years that I've done this class, this is what I've got to show for it.

This is it.

And this is.

And this will last forever.

Absolutely.

Long after me.

This will be there forever for my children, for it's out there, it's just the rest of it.

So I think now I've realized that success is.

It's those small moments.

It's the small moments where you get a really lovely review, where you get that validation from whether it's another author or it's a family that say, oh, we read your book every night and it's so much fun and we're loving it.

And it's those moments which are a lot smaller, if you think about it, than the.

Here I am on a red carpet.

Doing something and generally you feel a lot better.

You do.

I think that's it.

And I said, like I said to you before, it's about managing your expectations.

Because I remember on the day it was.

It came out, publishing day, you think it was going to be fanfares or something throughout the land.

You thought you were going to get a parade or something.

Yes.

As well.

Yeah, okay, we've just goo about my day.

Do you know who we'll have anymore?

It's that kind of thing.

But it's been.

But actually now it's fine that it is fine because it's just.

It's that slow burn.

I think it's when you was on various chat shows and someone goes, oh, I've just written a children's book.

And you think, oh, goodness.

But right, good for them.

They've done that.

They're a celebrity, they've done it.

I think for the most part I'm happy to be in this pool with everyone else going, you know what?

This is my little corner, this is my book.

And I'll cheer you on.

You can cheer me on.

And we're just ride this roller coaster together.

And that leads me to my next question because you had to already alluded to it a bit about how long you're going to keep doing your toddler's dance school.

So I want to talk to you about the role of writing.

Tell us what the role of writing, being a children's book author means to you in the grand scheme of your professional life.

Now.

It really is a kind of a total kind of diversion of.

Because I think I've always, I think with a bit of luck and charisma really, my career has went from performing to teaching.

And then this job came this job and it just rolled on so to suddenly take this sort of sharp right turn towards writing.

But it gave me.

When I was doing the first book, I did started it and then I kept jotting ideas down with the second book in mind because I kept thinking I can't put that in that one, but I could do it in the second book.

It just gave me such kind of calmness and quiet that I just think I hadn't ever had.

And I don't really have this with lesson planning or thinking up ideas for the things I do because as well as my toddler class, I also work in a care home and care based exercises and I work in a cancer help center and I do exercise and dance with the people who've either got cancer, had cancer, are going through treatment.

It's again, it's a different way of moving for sure.

And having done previously worked in schools and done from age 4 to 11 year olds who've done sort of adult dance classes, that sort of, that's been my sort of career throughout.

So this was.

Suddenly my words were giving me the.

Movement and are you devoting a specific amount of time to writing or how like what's your.

What's.

How do you do, how do you get your creative juices down on paper?

I was almost do it in blocks and it was literally as if like I could spend the whole afternoon one day going, oh my goodness, I've rewritten that page 20 times.

But it still feels really good to do it because I like every version.

I've just got to figure out which version is going to go.

And then other times I would sit there and like anyone, you go, okay, I've pressed the space bar about 100 times and nothing, nothing's coming.

Or I can't quite feel the flow.

I think for me with most things I approach it that, you know, what if it's not happening, we're just going to leave it, we're just going to.

There's a sense of pushing through which I get, but if it's not happening, let's just leave it and we'll come back to it.

And so with the first book I had a lot of gaps because I would just sit there and it was like, you know what, am I going to get this published or am I just doing it just as an exercise for myself?

Because I'm enjoying it.

Whether it gets published or not, I'm enjoying it.

It's really great, it's therapeutic.

I feel quite nostalgic talking about Sonny and Daddy.

It reminds me of when the children were little.

It reminds me of that time.

And I would then go off on a little tangent in my own head and remember those days in the playroom.

And so that was quite fulfilling in itself.

But then you go, no, this could be more And I think it was that thread that I said that those two publishers wrote back saying, it's not for us, but we really like it.

And you know what?

I love that they did that.

Because you know what?

A lot.

Yeah, it meant a lot.

Yeah.

Because a lot of companies, they wouldn't do that.

And no, I had lots who.

Literally, it was a case of, if you don't hear from us.

Yeah.

And you go, how long do I give that?

Do I wait?

Months?

Is it three weeks?

Is it.

I don't know, what is it?

And it's quite disheartening when you've gone, I've done this for you, and hand over this thing.

And then they just.

Yeah, whatever.

For them to actually say, I like it.

Oh, it's good.

It was like, ah, that's fantastic, for sure.

And that leads me to.

Because you've shared so much and you've shared about your.

The role of writing in your life and how it'll end up being more of a role in your life.

So what advice would you give aspiring children's book authors?

If you have an idea, Absolutely explore it.

Absolutely explore it.

You're not going to get the first version or the final version the first time.

It's going to grow.

It's going to.

You're going to take 10 steps forward and then you're going to take about 50 back, but you're going to.

You just.

It is a case of just keep writing.

Because even when I was writing and sometimes I was like, what is that?

Oh, my goodness, that is just not making any sense.

But I would go, actually, now, let me.

That bit could work.

And it's almost like having fajigs or laid out in front of you and you've just got to figure out how the pieces go together.

And you may.

You realize that you couldn't jam everything into one book.

No, you started separating it out.

And no one's ever said that to me before on.

On this podcast show.

It's neat to hear that and say, well, look it, you only have five hundred to a thousand words.

And if you're over that, then you know what, it could develop into a second or a third book, like Alice's book.

Well, I think that's basically why I suddenly realized I could potentially do more.

Because the first one, I think, was.

It was so full.

It was so full.

And it was almost like, this isn't a picture book.

This is not.

No, we're not.

This isn't.

This is just too much.

And then you whittle it down and you whittle it down.

And then when you are wary of the number of words and you're wary of.

But you still need to express what you want to say, but within those constraints.

Yes, but it is doable.

It means that you get to be more creative because you've got to then think, I can only express it in this much space for sure.

But to just keep.

I would say to someone, just keep going.

Because it's, it's an.

Even if the long game, it's not an overnight thing.

It's not something that's just going to be produced amazingly in one go.

I, I think I lost track of how many drafts I did of it.

Because yourself.

It reads well, you think, but it's like there's something.

I just don't know what it is.

I don't want to submit that yet because I don't feel in myself.

That's the one.

Okay.

I always save this towards the end.

But the most important, we talked about it earlier.

The most important person at the end of the day with your children's book, besides yourself, is your readers.

So what encouragement do you have for your readers?

Why should they purchase your book?

Because I think they should purchase it because it's.

It's just fun.

It's just fun.

And it's a book that a child could be read to.

And by having your parent or carer reading it to you, it means that you already having that connection, that bond, and then that could hopefully lead onto showing parents and carers, hey, maybe I could do that with my child.

Maybe we could do that together.

Just exploring also the wonderful world of dance.

I think for me, that's something I would love more people to take part in.

So I think it just shows them that you don't have to be a professional dancer.

You don't have to have it perfectly.

You can just stomp and charge about and do twist around and do your own thing.

It's your own expression, isn't it?

Put your favorite piece of music on and just have a boogie.

Absolutely.

And just have some fun with it because that's what you're going to get from Sunny Steps loves to dance.

And it's a great connecting point for young and old.

Final thoughts?

Alison, is there a question I didn't ask you?

You thought, I really want to share this with the audience.

Is there something that you'd like to share that I didn't ask you?

Oh, goodness, no.

I just.

I think, to be honest, we've covered everything.

I think Sunny Steps loves to Dance is.

Is an extension of me.

I am, in a way, Sunny Steps, because the class, I've never franchised it.

It's not a big conglomerate thing.

It's me.

I'm not like, I don't know if you have things like Tumble Tots or monkey music, those sorts of big franchises, that kind of children's classes.

Absolutely.

Sunny Steps is me, and it always has been me.

If you come to Sunny Steps, it's I am it.

That's the class.

I haven't got any other teachers.

It's just me.

So I think Sunny Steps, the book is me.

You're getting a little piece of me and my love of dance and movement and the joy, the absolute joy I had playing with my children in this way.

That's very inspiring, how we fueled our time when they were little.

Well, thank you so much for being a guest on the Adventures in the Heart of Children's Book Authors podcast.

Your generosity of time and your insights are going to benefit aspiring children's book authors and readers.

Oh, thanks.

New.

Oh, you're more than welcome.

And we promise to provide the audience with links to Alison's website.

Your website is so fun because you've got pictures of children, toddlers in action.

So I really believe that people will go to your website.

They'll get a sense of who you are, and like you said, it's your personality coming through the website.

And we'll also provide links to your social media and lovely.

The other thing I'd like to say to people, if you enjoyed this episode, please hit the subscribe button to listen to future episodes.

And feel free to share this episode with anyone inspired or who enjoys hearing about Allison and her book, Sunny Steps, loves to dance, and just you can feel Allison's enthusiasm.

We hope you enjoy the listen.

Thank you, Allison.

Well, thank you for having me.

It's been a pleasure.