Hello and welcome to Storytelling for Business, the podcast that helps you build better customer relationships by telling stories your clients want to hear. I'm Katie Flamman. I'm a voiceover artist specialising in corporate storytelling. That means everything from adverts on social media, TV, radio or smart speaker, to training courses, inspiring company anthems, and explainer videos about new products and services. My clients include Pearson, Pfizer and Volkswagen, helping them all to share brand stories and business development. But why is business storytelling so important? What makes a great story and how can storytelling create leads for businesses and build lasting client relationships?

In this series, I want answers and luckily I know where to find them. Today's episode, Storytelling on Screen, is about how you can use video to inspire your audience to take action, and you're going to learn loads from my brilliant guest, Jules Sander. Jules is a freelance filmmaker and visual storytelling expert who's worked in factual programming for over 20 years. For the last two, she's been Chair of EVCOM, the Event and Visual Communication Association. I spoke to her a little while ago during her final weeks as Head of Production at Verity London, an agency specialising in content strategy and comms around responsible business.

Hi Katie. Thank you for having me.

It's brilliant to have you here. So let's just start by talking about Verity London. Can you explain what you do?

As you explained, we are an agency that specialises in all things around responsible business, which is one of the things that I really liked about them when I joined in terms of helping organisations with what they're doing, and often they're doing it anyway. People are putting things in place to become better businesses when it comes to sustainability and how they work with their people and diversity and inclusion and social responsibility, all those things. So sometimes it's what are they doing around that? It's what strategies they're putting in place around that, how they're communicating it? And where I come in is on the content side of things. So I will work with them when that strategy is put in place to what they might need in terms of film, case studies, animations, infographics and explainers so that people really get and understand what they're actually doing.

So what's the first thing you ask when a company comes to you with a project?

So what we want to do is find the best way. What is it that they want to communicate? What do they need to happen as a result? Is it getting more people on board or to sign up to a particular project? Is it to convince people or bring people along? Is it internal? It might be external. And then we look at the best way to get that message across. So for example, I'm working with a company right now who have a great social innovation project, but they need more people to know about it and they want people to sign up so that they can generate even more social innovation projects. It would be great not just for them as businesses, but for a wider society.

We don't want to do that just by giving information about how you sign up. There's some great stories out there about projects that they've already got going that have helped literally millions of people that have been helped by these projects. It's a large global organisation. So we're bringing some of this to life by telling some of those stories to inspire people and encourage them to want to come along.

That's the thing, isn't it? It's about reaching out to people emotionally or forging some kind of emotional connection to then make them then take action and do whatever the project wants them to do.

Exactly. I think you can just tell somebody to do something, but it's not going to inspire them very much. Whereas if they can see it for themselves and we can tell those stories, that will really make a bit more of a connection, bringing people who've done it along so they can see those people, maybe identify with them and look at all those elements that go into telling a really great story.

So how do you identify what are those key elements that they need? Do you chat with the company and then say, "Oh, well actually, can we please speak to Matilda who did the skydive," or how does it work?

Sometimes when we've been involved with more of the journey, some of those stories will have come out naturally when we've been working with them on what they're doing and putting that strategy in place. So sometimes we'll know the stories. Sometimes we just have to speak to them, make phone calls. Sometimes they might be things on their website that a client might not even be aware of and we can pull things out. But it's having those conversations, building relationships and talking to people to find out those things that are going on that might really speak to people.

One client where they're doing really great things with their people who love working there, which is all part of being a responsible business. It's travel companies. So in order to get people to want to sign up to their holidays, they want them to have a bit more of an idea of who the people are working there. The fact that everybody that I speak to says, "We love working there because of this, this, and this," and it's all things that are around the brand values that they want to get out there really helps.

That's interesting,

So when you tell their stories, that resonates with the customer, which is very different to if you're getting somebody internal perhaps to sign up to something.

Yeah, that's very interesting. That's a real authenticity within the brand, isn't it? Everybody has the same values, everybody has the same beliefs, and that's then passed on to the customer who will sign up to that particular travel package.

Yeah, exactly. And actually, I want to go back because I said it's very different to when you're working internally, when you're working externally, and in some ways it is because the message might be different or what you're trying to get across is different. But at the same time, I think it's really important to recognise that all audiences are people and they all want to be moved and entertained. And I think there's a misconception about corporate film or something that might be internal, that it would be a very different way of communicating that actually grabbing people's attention needs to be done in the same way, whether they're an employee or a customer.

That's a really good point, isn't it? Because at the end of the day, whatever piece of content you are creating, it's all about the audience and it's all about who you are trying to reach out to and connect with, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Do companies come to you with problems or difficulties that they're trying to get around as well as just raising awareness, and are there things that you can do to help them to solve those problems?

Yeah, sometimes they'll come to us and they're very early in their journey to want to become a responsible business or a more sustainable company. They might not be there yet. I think what is important that we do is that we are not greenwashing and trying to say that they're doing something that they're not, that we can work with them to look at what they can be doing, but if they're putting a plan in place, and that's something we can be working with them in as to how they get there, we can communicate what they're doing to put that plan in place. It's being open and honest, and that's something that we work with our clients on.

Honest about that particular point they're at in their journey.

Exactly. Yeah.

So you yourself have had quite a varied journey, but it's all been about storytelling really.

Yes, I think my route was a traditional broadcasting TV career originally. I worked as a runner and I worked my way up to become a researcher, an assistant producer. And then when I finished with working in TV production, I was a producer/director. I was running around with a camera. I think one of my last TV jobs for a programme called City Hospital, which is a BBC One series where I was filming and putting together the little inserts. It was live from guys in St. Thomas' Hospital every day on BBC One. And then I'd be telling stories about the patients, people coming into A&E, following them through, day in the life of doctors and nurses and different people working within the hospital. It was a lovely job. I had so much freedom and people were told to work with the crew. So it was a really nice opportunity to really tell those stories.

And at the time, I think it was one of the only things talking about the good stuff that the NHS were doing. There was a lot of criticism at the time. I think this must've been about at least 15 years ago that I was doing that. And after that, somehow the NHS and Department of Health got onto me and I ended up doing some freelancing work with them, which was more around messages. So I've been able to do storytelling just for entertainment, which then seemed like a luxury. It was about telling those stories, but bringing a message into it. So I was able to merge what I'd done in terms of entertaining people as well as telling those stories.

There was a series about midwives and what was being asked in their role, and I went around the country interviewing midwives and getting across what that involved. Then I did other government films, which were all about telling a particular message. So it felt like that was a really good training, I suppose-

Very good.

For working in the more corporate world.

And what you just said about you were able to do it for entertainment and then for sending a message, of course, it's all entertaining, isn't it? You've got to entertain as well as educate because that's how the message gets through. I think you must have had the most amazing grounding and a very good knowledge of the nitty-gritty of the NHS and all of its different facets.

Yeah. I think that I've really enjoyed some of the things I've worked on. I've had some chances to go and see some things that you wouldn't normally get to in real life or in just one job. And even now, I'm in places where you wouldn't necessarily be. So I was running around in the bells of a cruise ship the other day for one client, looking at where they do the laundry and the kitchens, and I always think it's very lucky to get to do those things.

And behind the scenes is where all the magic happens, isn't it? That's where all the really interesting stuff goes on. Who would think about the laundry on a cruise ship? And that's what people are really interested to know about, I think, as well as all the lovely glossy on the surface perks that you might get. It's the workings and the behind the scenes, but I suppose that would stand for a lot of the films that you make, people giving a real authentic glimpse of what it's really like to work here.

Yeah, and like you said, behind the scenes, the things that you wouldn't necessarily know if you went on a cruise ship, you wouldn't see these areas. So by showing that you're giving people a glimpse and making them feel like they're getting know, they're getting to know different crew members and that kind of thing, but wherever it is, it's pulling out that information that people just aren't aware of and finding that way to make it interesting and capture people's imaginations.

That's such good advice for any business that's trying to figure out some video marketing strategies or even copywriting, to give some behind-the-scenes detail, to make it interesting, to hook people in with an angle that maybe you wouldn't think about.

Yeah, and I think one of the things I always think, which came to me from my TV days is with whatever you're doing, your information you want to get across and your story is in there, but to try and pull out the most interesting points straight away. So we'll always plan it that way anyway. It doesn't necessarily work out that it does make sense. So it does come across, and we can play with the story a little bit once we're in the edit, but we'll often try and find what is most interesting about this. And then you start with that.

Because people have such a short attention span, is that the reasoning behind that?

I don't think it's necessarily about a short attention span, but it is about capturing their imagination early on so that they will stay with you. And then people often talk about a three-minute limit or however long, and I don't really buy that because people do still watch longer form content. I think if you tell a story in the right way, you can make a three-minute film that actually feels a lot longer if it's not interesting or exciting, or you can make a longer film that people just watch and can't believe that the time has gone. Yeah, I don't really buy it that people don't have long attention spans, but it is up to us to make them interested and make something that's not boring.

Yeah, for sure. Capturing imagination is a really good way that you put it and definitely not making things that are boring. And you've also worked in the charity sector, haven't you?

Yeah, I did about five-and-a-half years actually where I was at the sight loss charity, RNIB, looking after their film production for all sorts of things, for campaigns, for fundraising, for social media. So that was a really great experience to actually be... especially now working in an agency, to actually be client side and to experience what that's like to be the client. So yeah, I really loved that.

You've done all the things, haven't you, in the background that have brought you up to this particular point? You've worked behind the camera, you've planned the shoots. I know you still go out and do that stuff now, but as you said, you've been the client as well. So do you think all those experiences together have helped you to really understand the clients that come through your agency door?

I think so, but also, I do have a bit of guilt sometimes about when I was a client and how I was with agencies. And I sometimes think, "Oh, if I'd have been agency side before I was client side, I think I would've been a much better client." Sometimes when a client's being really difficult, I think this is my karma of when I was the client being difficult. So yeah, I would be a much better client now, knowing what it's like agency side.

So what should your clients, if you're going to have a client meeting, what would be your dream thing that the client can do to make things easier for the agency?

It's really good to have a very clear brief so we know what's wanted, we know what the aims are, what needs to be achieved, what success for this particular piece of content would look like. So knowing all that in advance, not necessarily knowing exactly what's wanted from the content, but knowing what it needs to achieve can really help to make sure that we get something that does do that.

And do clients come in with very clear ideas like, "We want this to be live filmed footage, or we want this to be an animation, or we want this to be an explainer format," or visually, do they know what they want or is that often up to you to figure out what would work best?

It really depends on the client. So sometimes they're very clear, sometimes it's very open, which gives us this amazing opportunity to be creative and come up with different ideas. Sometimes they'll be very clear, but when we talk it through, we're able to look at, will what you've got in mind actually achieve what you want to? And sometimes we're able to change it based on that.

And then there's times where we've been working on the strategy or the comms or the planning, and that will lead itself very clearly to a piece of content is needed. So there's all different ways that it comes in and how we develop it.

And what's your favourite sort of content to produce?

I love going out on location and meeting people. So just from a personal point of view, I love it when I get to direct a really nice lovely case study about something that's interesting that's going on, going to see those things that you wouldn't normally see actually happening and in action, trying to find ways to bring that to life and interviewing people. So yeah, I'm much more comfortable on the other side doing the bit that you are doing right now.

Well, that's City Hospital for you, isn't it? That's created that love of live filming from all that time ago. That's brilliant. So tell me about EVCOM. What is that and how did you get involved with it?

So EVCOM are an industry body and they cover events and brand film. So visual comms for corporates, really. They put on a whole host of different events. They do campaigning work, they have award ceremonies, and actually, I got involved with them during lockdown. I think I'd been involved with them when I started on one of my very first NHS projects years ago, the agency that I was working with invited me to one of their grand award ceremonies and I remember thinking, "Oh, this is nice and lovely to be part of something."

I hadn't had loads of involvement with them over the years. And then during lockdown, they were putting out some really good stuff as webinars and getting people doing similar roles together to talk about the impact and what they were doing and how things were changing. I just found it so useful to be able to have that kind of discussion with peers and people doing the same kind of things and to share experiences. So when they were looking for people to join the board, I put in an application and said, "Look, if you need somebody, and they invited me to join the board."

It's made up of people who are senior in the events world and in the film world. They had a Chairman for two years, a Chairperson who was stepping down. I think two years is the maximum that you can do it. It goes between somebody who's in the film world and somebody who's in the events world. So because they'd had somebody for events, they wanted somebody for film. So I think it's important to just put your hand up and say, "I'm here if you want me." And it turned out they did, and I'm just in my second year of doing the role.

I wanted to ask you about Verity London as well, because it's a female led company. How is that? Can you explain the culture behind that and what it's like to work there?

Yeah, so it was set up by Karen and Deborah many years ago, who were both BBC series producers and directors and very experienced in that. And they set up as a film production company initially. And I think as part of that as being film producers, they were often asked about wider things involving the strategy, and it led very naturally to looking at things like diversity and inclusion and sustainability. They were often the subject of films, but they were also being asked about that more widely, and that's how they were Vanilla Films and rebranded a few years ago to become Verity with that focus on responsible business.

So yeah, it's great working for a female owned and led company. I've not had that before. I've had the experience where I've had some great female bosses, which has really empowered me and makes you feel like you can do it. So I think that's great.

I'm into this whole storytelling business, as you know, and I'm interested to know what you personally think, the story that you want to tell in maybe, I don't know, three, five years time, how will it look for you maybe in terms of your professional stories that you are telling or your personal one?

Oh, okay. So that's interesting. So I love what I do. I love telling great stories. Also for me personally, I like to feel like I'm doing something that's worthwhile as well. One of the reasons that I joined Verity. So when I left RNIB a few years back, quite a few years back now, and went to work more commercial agency environment, I ended up also working on a helpline, volunteering on a helpline in my time outside. And actually, in my spare time what there is, I've actually gone on to do some training in counselling and coaching, which I'm really enjoying. And Verity being a responsible business agency, they also encourage us to do things around being a responsible business. So I've got some volunteering time. I am currently seeing counselling clients and coaching clients in my spare time as a volunteer. So I'm really enjoying doing that and I'd like to go on being able to combine the two.

Wow, that's brilliant. So counselling for business or other things?

Counselling is much wider. The coaching side can be around business and personal obviously. No one is just about their work. It's always about what's happening on a wider scale. So when I do coaching, it will be about the bigger picture and how it all fits in together. I'm really also really interested in working around inclusion. I've got two kids who are both autistic and working with people who are autistic in the workplace and working with disability and things like that. All of which tie into being a responsible business are things that are really interesting for me going forward.

Katie Flamman 20:40:

That's absolutely brilliant. Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories, and all I wanted to say is thank you for being on the podcast. It's been really lovely having you.

Thanks so much, Katie.

Well, if you are planning a corporate video, these top takeaways from Jules will definitely help you to make your screen storytelling a success. One, whether you are producing the film yourself or working with an agency or production company, the first thing to do is figure out exactly what you want that film to achieve. As Jules put it, what would success look like for that piece of content? Two, don't be boring. Show people something unexpected. Everyone loves a sneak peek behind the scenes, and it's a great way to be memorable and authentic in your storytelling.

Three, you don't have to tell the story in the right order. Remember, Jules said she always tries to put the most interesting thing at the start as the hook to grab the viewer's attention and draw them in. Four, all audiences are people and there shouldn't be a difference in storytelling for internal and external audiences, whether it's a sales pitch, a training module, or a corporate video. And whether you are talking to a staff member or a customer, everyone wants to be moved and entertained. Our next episode is all about impact.

And it was just like, yes! And I said to her, "You haven't trademarked that or anything, have you?" Because that's now become our signal, connecting people with their own impact. That's it.

Charity boss, Chris Lomas from Hope4 talks about using stories to connect with people and how involving the audience is the secret to his success. That's episode four of the Storytelling for Business Podcast, impact audience involvement, available right now wherever you get your podcasts. But this episode is all out of time. A big thank you to today's guest, Jules Sander. If you'd like her help with creating your next corporate film, please give her a shout. You'll find the contact details in the show notes. And if you'd like my voice on that film, I'd love to help too. My details are there as well. I'm Katie Flamman, and this is Storytelling for Business. Till next time, goodbye.