1 00:00:05,550 --> 00:00:09,320 Timothy: Creates our podcast interview. 2 00:00:10,290 --> 00:00:11,700 She Bonna Coyo. 3 00:00:17,310 --> 00:00:17,890 Hello friend. 4 00:00:17,890 --> 00:00:19,060 This is Timothy Kimo. 5 00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:24,119 Brian, your head instigator for create our podcast, where I use my 30 years 6 00:00:24,119 --> 00:00:27,929 of experience in the arts and education world to help you tame your inner 7 00:00:27,929 --> 00:00:30,849 critic and create more than you consume. 8 00:00:31,899 --> 00:00:36,240 So today I had the unique opportunity to speak with. 9 00:00:36,390 --> 00:00:43,050 And I got to meet her through Podmatch. 10 00:00:43,580 --> 00:00:52,269 Now, Podmatch is a program, is a community that connects podcasters with guests. 11 00:00:53,019 --> 00:00:58,629 And I will have my affiliate link In the show notes for this for you. 12 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:04,009 So if, in case you're interested in becoming a guest on any kind 13 00:01:04,009 --> 00:01:07,830 of podcast, it's really out there, uh, you can go ahead and sign up. 14 00:01:08,185 --> 00:01:14,125 And, uh, be a guest or if you're a podcast host, you can use that service as well. 15 00:01:14,455 --> 00:01:17,064 There's a great community there and I can't say enough 16 00:01:17,064 --> 00:01:19,005 good things about pod match. 17 00:01:19,545 --> 00:01:23,135 But today we're here to talk about, uh, Shabona and. 18 00:01:23,679 --> 00:01:27,190 All the stuff that she is doing in her creative practice. 19 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,520 Now, a little about Shabana, uh, she's an award winning writer, performance 20 00:01:32,530 --> 00:01:35,390 artist, and facilitator of workshops. 21 00:01:35,830 --> 00:01:40,290 Originally she's from India and once based in New Mexico. 22 00:01:40,949 --> 00:01:44,449 Uh, her work is about expressing our creativity. 23 00:01:44,815 --> 00:01:49,395 To liberate us from fear and other colonizations and 24 00:01:49,395 --> 00:01:50,965 to celebrate our passion. 25 00:01:51,495 --> 00:01:56,235 She received a fiction fellowship from the New York foundation for the arts 26 00:01:56,465 --> 00:01:58,995 and a Fulbright grant to Mongolia. 27 00:01:59,695 --> 00:02:03,254 I'll have links to her website and her YouTube videos and 28 00:02:03,254 --> 00:02:06,545 everything that she's involved in in the show notes there for you. 29 00:02:06,545 --> 00:02:08,305 So make sure you take a look at those. 30 00:02:08,685 --> 00:02:12,505 If you want to reach out and get in contact with her, like I said, 31 00:02:12,505 --> 00:02:18,045 she facilitates workshops, that help you with your creativity. 32 00:02:18,375 --> 00:02:22,805 No matter if you're in a big corporation, small company or wherever 33 00:02:22,805 --> 00:02:27,174 you're at, definitely check her out for the workshops that she puts on. 34 00:02:27,435 --> 00:02:29,984 So you're probably asking yourself, Hey, Tim, why are you, uh, why 35 00:02:29,984 --> 00:02:31,575 are you having her on the show? 36 00:02:32,174 --> 00:02:34,924 Well, I got a message from her in pod match. 37 00:02:35,549 --> 00:02:40,660 And, uh, she'd listened to the show and, uh, had asked to be on, uh, I took a look 38 00:02:40,660 --> 00:02:44,980 at her profile and I was pretty amazed with everything that she's involved in. 39 00:02:45,419 --> 00:02:54,619 And then I went to her YouTube videos and, uh, as a poet myself, I really was 40 00:02:55,100 --> 00:02:58,239 entranced by how she did her poetry. 41 00:02:58,810 --> 00:03:02,769 Um, and, and the movement that she put into it, it wasn't 42 00:03:02,769 --> 00:03:04,149 just the words on the page. 43 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,470 It was her embodying the entire poem. 44 00:03:09,510 --> 00:03:12,429 So we hooked up and I did a, uh, did an interview. 45 00:03:12,429 --> 00:03:13,639 We actually did two interviews. 46 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,209 The first one couldn't use cause the audio was, uh, was bad on it. 47 00:03:17,730 --> 00:03:21,269 And so we did a second interview and I can't thank her enough 48 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,010 for being flexible to do that. 49 00:03:23,329 --> 00:03:26,479 Hey, it happens, you know, modern technology, it happens sometimes. 50 00:03:27,235 --> 00:03:30,965 But, uh, this is our second interview that we had done that I'm going 51 00:03:30,965 --> 00:03:32,455 to be presenting to you here. 52 00:03:32,895 --> 00:03:37,775 And uh, I really want you to take a listen to what she has to say about her 53 00:03:37,775 --> 00:03:44,764 creativity, her inner critic, and how she has overcome a lot of challenges in 54 00:03:44,764 --> 00:03:53,214 her life to bring forth her creativity and her voice in a world that, you 55 00:03:53,214 --> 00:03:55,795 know, sometimes is not too kind to that. 56 00:03:56,434 --> 00:03:57,985 So, enjoy the interview. 57 00:03:58,510 --> 00:04:03,520 So, thank you so much for joining us here and I'd like to jump off right 58 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:09,230 off the bat with talking about the, the inner critic and what that's like 59 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:15,199 for you and how, how you want to put that, how you view the inner critic. 60 00:04:15,199 --> 00:04:19,120 Is it, is it a hindrance or is it a help or how is it for you? 61 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:27,170 Shebana: The Inner Critic is connected to my writing, to my creativity, to my sense 62 00:04:27,170 --> 00:04:31,849 of myself, like the origin of myself, believing in myself that I can create a 63 00:04:31,849 --> 00:04:33,969 creative being, which wasn't always true. 64 00:04:34,539 --> 00:04:39,980 I wasn't, as much as I wrote in a journal since I was 12 years old, it was 65 00:04:39,980 --> 00:04:45,600 really in my 20s when I began writing fiction that I, Came into this identity. 66 00:04:45,610 --> 00:04:47,170 You're like, Oh, I can create. 67 00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:53,549 So in a way that felt to me right late in life, maybe, you know, and 68 00:04:53,549 --> 00:04:58,680 I feel like what I've developed over the years, I'm 51 now is like 69 00:04:58,700 --> 00:05:02,080 a repertoire, you know, because it's like a, it's like a kid or like any, 70 00:05:02,090 --> 00:05:04,129 you don't know what's going to work. 71 00:05:04,459 --> 00:05:07,230 And not the same thing doesn't work all the time. 72 00:05:08,299 --> 00:05:09,140 Timothy: Amen to that. 73 00:05:10,530 --> 00:05:15,789 Shebana: I think the biggest thing I've had to work with is the sense of should. 74 00:05:16,369 --> 00:05:18,339 Writing should be like this. 75 00:05:18,359 --> 00:05:20,379 Poetry should be like that. 76 00:05:21,109 --> 00:05:24,619 And I was very, especially when you're starting out, you're 77 00:05:24,650 --> 00:05:30,015 very vulnerable to people saying to you, this is how, To do it. 78 00:05:31,465 --> 00:05:36,085 And I think it's different than there is a craft, of course, to all kinds of writing. 79 00:05:36,105 --> 00:05:43,854 I work, I've worked with short stories and poetry and theater and, um, screenplays. 80 00:05:44,825 --> 00:05:50,105 Um, in different ways, um, it really does help to know certain things, of course, 81 00:05:50,755 --> 00:05:56,264 but in the end and also in the beginning, I feel it's all so you feel free to 82 00:05:56,264 --> 00:06:02,474 choose what is really speaking with what I see, not even you, what the story wants, 83 00:06:02,475 --> 00:06:05,135 what the poem wants listening into that. 84 00:06:06,265 --> 00:06:06,845 So um. 85 00:06:07,370 --> 00:06:12,450 I have an evolving relationship with my critic. 86 00:06:13,470 --> 00:06:14,090 Timothy: That is good. 87 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,039 That is good to hear because one of the things here in Create Art 88 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,499 Podcast that we talk about is we're talking about taming that inner 89 00:06:21,499 --> 00:06:25,889 critic, not necessarily throwing it out the door and getting rid of it. 90 00:06:25,889 --> 00:06:29,180 But I, I, there are some benefits for it, I think. 91 00:06:29,810 --> 00:06:34,700 But when it stops you from that creativity is that's when the hindrance 92 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,479 comes in, in my opinion, anyways. 93 00:06:38,060 --> 00:06:42,720 Something that you said that I really wanted to jump on because there is that, 94 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,590 that other interview that we did that is lost forever and it's totally my fault, 95 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:53,740 but you were talking about the poetry and that, that was my first foray into the art 96 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,899 world and how poetry is supposed to be. 97 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:58,549 And I know. 98 00:06:59,710 --> 00:07:04,590 When I started writing back in 1980, 88, and one of the 99 00:07:04,590 --> 00:07:06,180 first poems that I read was T. 100 00:07:06,180 --> 00:07:06,250 S. 101 00:07:06,250 --> 00:07:09,460 Eliot's The Hollow Men, I always was taught, you know, poetry was 102 00:07:09,460 --> 00:07:14,799 always taught in a, in a corner and, you know, four line stanzas have to 103 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,429 rhyme and, and I really hated it. 104 00:07:17,430 --> 00:07:18,800 And then as I got older. 105 00:07:20,635 --> 00:07:22,715 It, I, I threw out a lot of those things. 106 00:07:22,715 --> 00:07:26,844 I saw a lot of other people at the Green Mill in Chicago, where I'm from, we're 107 00:07:26,844 --> 00:07:29,355 doing slam poetry and performance poetry. 108 00:07:29,925 --> 00:07:34,704 And something that you just said that, you know, the, the evolution of that inner 109 00:07:34,704 --> 00:07:40,534 critic, how about as, as an artist for you from when you were writing, uh, as a kid 110 00:07:40,544 --> 00:07:45,614 to, you know, what, what you're writing as of last week, how has that changed? 111 00:07:46,755 --> 00:07:49,985 Shebana: I do feel I've cultivated ways. 112 00:07:50,525 --> 00:07:56,914 In everything, I think how to be more free to let what wants to be expressed, find 113 00:07:56,914 --> 00:07:59,944 its way, you know, onto a page or a stage. 114 00:08:00,534 --> 00:08:05,005 So how to play, actually that word play, playful, that's 115 00:08:05,044 --> 00:08:07,245 really helped my evolution. 116 00:08:07,730 --> 00:08:10,820 It's been like finding ways to be more playful. 117 00:08:11,310 --> 00:08:15,370 And what I also think of just not a few years ago, I came 118 00:08:15,370 --> 00:08:17,320 across this story about a poet. 119 00:08:17,890 --> 00:08:23,420 She's a Roma long, long, she's passed now, but she was a Polish 120 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,110 Roma poet and her name was Papuja. 121 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,330 I don't know if you know her. 122 00:08:28,380 --> 00:08:33,660 And there's a really great story about her and poetry that she lived 123 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:35,520 with a community that wondered. 124 00:08:35,895 --> 00:08:41,495 And every, every night, say, they would stop, say, in a forest and make 125 00:08:41,495 --> 00:08:44,024 a fire and sing and dance like this. 126 00:08:45,180 --> 00:08:48,850 And one day there was an anthropologist embedded with them 127 00:08:49,030 --> 00:08:51,250 and he was really watching Papuza. 128 00:08:51,270 --> 00:08:53,920 She was young, maybe in her 18, 18 or so. 129 00:08:54,390 --> 00:08:57,760 And as she danced, she spoke, you know, things. 130 00:08:57,810 --> 00:09:02,779 And so he came to her afterwards and he said, what is this? 131 00:09:02,779 --> 00:09:03,750 What are you saying? 132 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,670 And she's like, I'm just saying things that come out of my head. 133 00:09:07,410 --> 00:09:10,790 And he said, do you know what you are saying is poetry? 134 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:12,810 And she said, what is poetry? 135 00:09:14,995 --> 00:09:16,855 And for me, I think of that a lot. 136 00:09:16,885 --> 00:09:21,834 Yes, it's really important to understand structures and how to's, 137 00:09:22,305 --> 00:09:26,695 but I love that she was expressing what came naturally under a tree 138 00:09:26,695 --> 00:09:29,045 in the night, in the dark, singing. 139 00:09:29,494 --> 00:09:36,194 And I tried to put myself in that place or play, you know, invite 140 00:09:36,194 --> 00:09:38,754 myself to create from that space. 141 00:09:38,765 --> 00:09:40,464 And that's what's changed. 142 00:09:41,785 --> 00:09:42,345 Timothy: That's awesome. 143 00:09:42,355 --> 00:09:48,165 Because I saw some of your YouTube videos and you were reciting and 144 00:09:48,465 --> 00:09:52,115 obviously you're a cinematographer, you, you know how to work the camera. 145 00:09:52,115 --> 00:09:58,435 But the thing that I really liked about it is the movement that the simple 146 00:09:58,435 --> 00:10:05,425 movement that you put in your hands, just in your hands, and I was almost 147 00:10:05,435 --> 00:10:11,605 more entranced by that than necessarily the words, but I got the words. 148 00:10:12,345 --> 00:10:18,075 And the, the hand movements, I was just like, why don't I do this with my poetry? 149 00:10:21,834 --> 00:10:25,174 Shebana: Oh, you know, I find it very heartening to hear you say that actually, 150 00:10:25,195 --> 00:10:31,145 because more and more and I'm like, I love words, but I want to use them less. 151 00:10:31,175 --> 00:10:37,954 And the last project that I did was called the body becomes the poem. 152 00:10:38,135 --> 00:10:40,784 And maybe, so what you were seeing was that kind of some 153 00:10:40,815 --> 00:10:42,235 evolution that was happening. 154 00:10:42,284 --> 00:10:43,594 I didn't film those videos. 155 00:10:43,625 --> 00:10:48,564 Thankfully, that was a young woman named Marga who did that in Spain. 156 00:10:49,094 --> 00:10:54,085 But I think what you were seeing in my hands is where the poem wants to go. 157 00:10:55,824 --> 00:10:56,665 Timothy: Absolutely. 158 00:10:56,704 --> 00:10:56,895 Yeah. 159 00:10:56,905 --> 00:10:58,025 It didn't in poetry. 160 00:10:58,770 --> 00:11:04,120 And with most art, it goes where you want it, where it wants to go. 161 00:11:04,490 --> 00:11:08,479 And you're just the vessel that puts it out into the world. 162 00:11:08,490 --> 00:11:11,309 You're, it's, you know, you're like the, the super highway 163 00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:13,790 of inspiration, creativity. 164 00:11:14,490 --> 00:11:17,110 There was a poem that we had talked about. 165 00:11:17,605 --> 00:11:21,774 That, yeah, that, yeah, that you had wrote and I definitely wanted 166 00:11:21,794 --> 00:11:24,004 to, to hear you do that poem. 167 00:11:24,175 --> 00:11:26,865 Do you have any, uh, handy there that you could read it for us? 168 00:11:26,964 --> 00:11:27,395 Shebana: Yeah. 169 00:11:27,434 --> 00:11:31,105 And it's actually, so what it is, we were talking about the body 170 00:11:31,105 --> 00:11:35,744 becomes the poem, which is this, this project that I did in Ireland. 171 00:11:35,754 --> 00:11:40,514 It was a response to an ancient Irish poem called the song of American 172 00:11:40,944 --> 00:11:45,690 that I, That is a poem and a series of I am statements about nature. 173 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:49,390 And I've been in love with this poem for like decades. 174 00:11:49,390 --> 00:11:55,759 And I, my project was to respond to it in my words, but also in my body on the 175 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,419 landscape where the poem is meant to be based because it's like a landscape myth. 176 00:12:01,065 --> 00:12:06,685 about someone who comes a long distance and arrives onto Ireland and the land 177 00:12:06,685 --> 00:12:11,355 speaks to him and he speaks this series of I am statements and his name is Amergan. 178 00:12:11,895 --> 00:12:16,954 So what I did when I was in Ireland, because the other thing I'm doing is 179 00:12:17,515 --> 00:12:20,785 kind of recovering this lost language, lost to me language called Urdu. 180 00:12:22,015 --> 00:12:26,380 So what I'm going to read to you just And make some hand gestures, 181 00:12:27,930 --> 00:12:32,170 you can imagine, but it's just Urdu translation, I just read a few lines. 182 00:12:32,650 --> 00:12:36,369 The, the poem originally, like I said, it's not my poem in English. 183 00:12:36,369 --> 00:12:41,880 The poem in English is an ancient Irish poem, and this version is 184 00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:43,980 by an Irish poet named Paddy Bush. 185 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:49,720 So the English is Patty Bush's translation of an ancient Irish poem, and the Urdu 186 00:12:49,750 --> 00:12:57,530 is me, my mother, and my two aunties, my two kalas, translating it, okay? 187 00:12:57,929 --> 00:13:00,040 So, the Song of American. 188 00:13:00,939 --> 00:13:04,360 Putting his right foot on the land, American said, 189 00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:13,290 I am the wind on the sea. 190 00:13:17,330 --> 00:13:19,070 I am wave swelling. 191 00:13:23,090 --> 00:13:24,530 I am ocean's voice. 192 00:13:28,660 --> 00:13:31,000 I am stag of seven clashes 193 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,060 Falcon on Cliff. 194 00:13:38,155 --> 00:13:43,905 And then I'll go to the end, there's a whole, it goes on and 195 00:13:43,905 --> 00:13:50,015 on beautifully and then it says, On whom do those stars smile? 196 00:13:50,015 --> 00:13:56,245 What man, what God forms weapons? 197 00:13:56,245 --> 00:14:01,640 I invoke the poet, poet of wind. 198 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:07,034 I invoke the poet, poet of wind. 199 00:14:08,075 --> 00:14:13,925 Shire is poet in Urdu. 200 00:14:14,595 --> 00:14:15,635 Timothy: Oh, my goodness. 201 00:14:16,385 --> 00:14:20,854 I love hearing that because, again, it takes me back to when I 202 00:14:20,854 --> 00:14:24,584 was in Chicago and we had people that were speaking in Spanish. 203 00:14:24,584 --> 00:14:25,944 I speak very little Spanish. 204 00:14:26,165 --> 00:14:29,274 I know how to order a beer and ask where the bathroom is, you 205 00:14:29,274 --> 00:14:30,505 know, the important things. 206 00:14:30,745 --> 00:14:31,155 Shebana: Yeah. 207 00:14:31,535 --> 00:14:34,915 Timothy: In French, I can order a pack of cigarettes, which I don't smoke anymore. 208 00:14:35,385 --> 00:14:38,285 Get a coffee and where's the bathroom, you know, the important things. 209 00:14:38,285 --> 00:14:43,755 But I always loved hearing something outside of English. 210 00:14:44,815 --> 00:14:52,755 And now I want to study, you know, I can't even say it now, Urdu, Urdu, Urdu, okay, 211 00:14:52,755 --> 00:14:55,175 Shebana: yeah, U R D U, 212 00:14:56,345 --> 00:14:57,015 Timothy: Urdu. 213 00:14:58,535 --> 00:15:03,635 I definitely want to study that language now because it's beautiful and I don't 214 00:15:04,054 --> 00:15:09,765 necessarily understand the syntax with it, but the way in which you present 215 00:15:09,765 --> 00:15:15,194 it and the way in which those people presented Spanish, French, Hungarian. 216 00:15:15,204 --> 00:15:16,084 We, we had. 217 00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:18,740 All languages going on in Chicago. 218 00:15:19,199 --> 00:15:19,740 Um, 219 00:15:21,770 --> 00:15:27,090 it takes me out of my white cis male. 220 00:15:27,814 --> 00:15:32,625 Whatever label they want to throw on me, it takes me out of that mindset 221 00:15:32,645 --> 00:15:39,254 and puts me into a more attentive mindset, I find, where I'm listening 222 00:15:39,254 --> 00:15:45,135 to the inflection of the voice and the beauty and the music of the words. 223 00:15:45,505 --> 00:15:47,449 English is An ugly language. 224 00:15:47,469 --> 00:15:48,550 It's, it's ugly. 225 00:15:48,589 --> 00:15:54,209 Uh, so I, I need to get on my Duolingo and learn some more French and, 226 00:15:54,209 --> 00:15:57,569 and, and Urdu and, and, and do that. 227 00:15:57,579 --> 00:16:04,030 So speaking about, you know, me being cis white male and all that kind of stuff. 228 00:16:04,089 --> 00:16:09,669 I know that you speak a lot about colonialism in your work, not just, 229 00:16:09,669 --> 00:16:13,699 you know, the writings, but everything that you do, can you talk a little 230 00:16:13,699 --> 00:16:15,810 bit about how you approach that? 231 00:16:15,819 --> 00:16:16,420 Because. 232 00:16:16,685 --> 00:16:20,725 One of the things I really enjoy about how you approach it is you're 233 00:16:20,725 --> 00:16:24,225 not pointing a finger at me and going, Tim, you're a bad person. 234 00:16:24,765 --> 00:16:27,984 You, you, you, you, you bring it up in a different way. 235 00:16:27,985 --> 00:16:30,024 And could, could you talk about how you do that? 236 00:16:31,345 --> 00:16:35,985 Shebana: Well, it's so, so I'm originally, I was born in India. 237 00:16:36,054 --> 00:16:43,194 I grew up there until I was 12 and I grew up in a household where my mother 238 00:16:43,195 --> 00:16:45,155 is Muslim and my father is Catholic. 239 00:16:45,709 --> 00:16:48,689 And then we moved from India to the U S when I was 12. 240 00:16:48,709 --> 00:16:50,370 So it's a whole lot of hybrid. 241 00:16:51,319 --> 00:16:56,189 It's a whole lot of, and my, I grew up speaking English as my first language. 242 00:16:57,109 --> 00:17:01,774 And I always, In, in India, I grew up in Bombay, you, you, there's like a 243 00:17:01,774 --> 00:17:05,645 lot of middle class Indians who speak English, but not maybe all of them 244 00:17:05,645 --> 00:17:07,325 have English as their first language. 245 00:17:07,355 --> 00:17:12,615 And what happened was just a couple of, not long ago in like 2017, 2018, 246 00:17:12,615 --> 00:17:15,964 I knew, you know, the British were in India for a hundred years, everyone 247 00:17:15,964 --> 00:17:17,805 you could think of came to India. 248 00:17:17,950 --> 00:17:23,420 Like from Europe too, and the Dutch, the French, but the British were there 249 00:17:23,420 --> 00:17:27,560 the longest and India was part of the British empire for a hundred years. 250 00:17:28,180 --> 00:17:33,520 And then also a part of India, a small part of it was part of Portugal, was 251 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:39,920 a colony of Portugal for, for till 1967, Goa was a colony of, of Portugal. 252 00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:41,880 And Vasco da Gama was. 253 00:17:42,190 --> 00:17:44,300 You know, the big, big guy, the big Portuguese. 254 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:46,200 And my last name is a Portuguese name. 255 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:52,730 It's Coelho, which in, it's pronounced differently, but Coelho, it means rabbit. 256 00:17:52,790 --> 00:17:58,070 And before the Portuguese came, my father's family were 257 00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:00,459 called Prabhu, which means God. 258 00:18:01,039 --> 00:18:03,090 And after the Portuguese came and. 259 00:18:03,415 --> 00:18:08,165 The families were forced to become Catholic, they became rabbits. 260 00:18:08,175 --> 00:18:10,195 So we went from gods to rabbits. 261 00:18:11,445 --> 00:18:12,215 Timothy: There you go. 262 00:18:13,545 --> 00:18:16,885 Shebana: But the thing that I found out written on a piece of paper 263 00:18:16,944 --> 00:18:21,644 on a treatise, it was a record of the British time in India. 264 00:18:21,644 --> 00:18:25,305 It said that they were trying to figure out how to educate Indians. 265 00:18:25,305 --> 00:18:29,155 Like, did that, would we, should we, Let them learn their own language, 266 00:18:29,155 --> 00:18:30,885 or should we put English on them? 267 00:18:31,545 --> 00:18:34,945 And there's, they decided on this policy, which was, we're going to 268 00:18:34,985 --> 00:18:40,295 create a class of Indians who are Indian in blood and color, but English 269 00:18:40,305 --> 00:18:43,025 in morals and intellect and values. 270 00:18:44,184 --> 00:18:48,405 And in my play, I bow as I say that, and I say, I come from that created class. 271 00:18:49,235 --> 00:18:52,305 I come, it was a way to manage the chaos that was India. 272 00:18:52,305 --> 00:18:58,750 And what something like that does, To someone who steps into that role, it 273 00:18:58,750 --> 00:19:04,210 just fragments you all over the place, you know, and you're like, where, 274 00:19:04,210 --> 00:19:08,320 what route, and you don't understand why you have certain feelings. 275 00:19:08,330 --> 00:19:12,309 So like, I grew up thinking I was better than other Indians because I spoke 276 00:19:12,309 --> 00:19:17,409 English so well, you know, nevermind, they spoke five, six different languages. 277 00:19:17,429 --> 00:19:21,784 Like most person, a person from India will speak Hindi, Hindi, They might 278 00:19:21,784 --> 00:19:24,305 speak their state language, their mother's language, you know, it's 279 00:19:24,315 --> 00:19:27,789 just, and I never, I grew up with this. 280 00:19:28,110 --> 00:19:32,220 This being this prejudice, this bias that I was, I grew up like thinking I 281 00:19:32,220 --> 00:19:35,510 was very great that I didn't smell of masala all the time, you know, that 282 00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:37,159 we were so conscious in my household. 283 00:19:37,159 --> 00:19:40,770 And I was like, so what, you know, you don't want to be the smelly 284 00:19:40,770 --> 00:19:42,880 Indian, you know, kind of thing. 285 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,789 So what I did was. 286 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:51,240 So I began to realize how much this was an insidious ripple effect of colonization 287 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:55,139 stuff that was still because I only felt good about English because I've 288 00:19:55,139 --> 00:20:00,279 been told for a hundred years and more, you are better if you speak English, it 289 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,060 ripples through, you know, it changes how I felt about my body, whether I 290 00:20:05,069 --> 00:20:09,440 thought beautiful or not, because I was brown and I was wide, you know, 291 00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:11,630 in my, my view, I wasn't thin enough. 292 00:20:12,045 --> 00:20:15,105 So what I, when I did this play, I did this play called The Good 293 00:20:15,105 --> 00:20:17,075 Manners of Colonized Subjects. 294 00:20:17,885 --> 00:20:22,925 that began, begins with a poem I wrote about inviting fear in for tea. 295 00:20:23,215 --> 00:20:30,795 How every time fear arrives, I invited in for tea and I sit there frozen, frozen. 296 00:20:30,825 --> 00:20:34,274 Even when the dancers come, I'm like, no, no, no, no, I cannot go. 297 00:20:34,274 --> 00:20:36,654 I am sitting here having tea with fear. 298 00:20:36,655 --> 00:20:43,055 And then there's this moment where this dark ant bites with the pinky and 299 00:20:43,415 --> 00:20:47,145 there's a whole song and dance basically that began my journey to the stage. 300 00:20:47,755 --> 00:20:52,415 But what I'm saying is like, I began to see the fear, all of this, 301 00:20:52,455 --> 00:20:57,185 that colonization for me, yes, is a thing that happened in history. 302 00:20:57,185 --> 00:21:01,344 That's important to know because it's really affected how a bunch 303 00:21:01,345 --> 00:21:04,225 of people feel about themselves and how they see the world. 304 00:21:04,860 --> 00:21:10,260 So it's important to know that and also I see it as a metaphor 305 00:21:10,260 --> 00:21:14,490 for things that keep us in boxes without us knowing what they are. 306 00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:20,590 What are these things made of that keep you small and stuck in a box full of 307 00:21:20,590 --> 00:21:24,989 fears whose origins are known and unknown? 308 00:21:25,330 --> 00:21:27,360 That you can see in that you can't see. 309 00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:34,450 So that's a way I see colonization, the importance of seeing and then, 310 00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:40,760 you know, finding ways to be put to playfully with a, with a body 311 00:21:40,770 --> 00:21:44,739 sense, because I feel that's where things get liberated in the body. 312 00:21:45,395 --> 00:21:49,015 Timothy: Like I say, every time I've, I've seen you on the, on 313 00:21:49,015 --> 00:21:53,854 the YouTube, I'm 51 and I'm saying the YouTube and the Twitter. 314 00:21:53,924 --> 00:21:54,754 Oh, gosh. 315 00:21:56,695 --> 00:22:00,114 But every time I've seen you on YouTube and I've, I've watched a few of the 316 00:22:00,114 --> 00:22:03,645 videos, I can see that movement. 317 00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:05,480 Always. 318 00:22:05,580 --> 00:22:11,290 And, and then just to think about you sitting on a stage having tea with fear 319 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:17,590 and not moving and, and, and just, you know, that whole, that whole shift of, 320 00:22:17,660 --> 00:22:23,800 you know, word of, of, of not moving in, in, in controlling yourself like 321 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,520 that, not controlling yourself, but making yourself still like that is wow. 322 00:22:30,389 --> 00:22:33,550 I am so glad we got to talk now twice. 323 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:34,500 Yes. 324 00:22:35,110 --> 00:22:38,160 And I'm learning so much about it too, because I, I'm fairly 325 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:39,870 educated, but I did not know. 326 00:22:39,870 --> 00:22:45,100 I never knew that Portugal had a colony in India. 327 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,809 That's something that never came through, through our history classes. 328 00:22:49,804 --> 00:22:50,544 That's for sure. 329 00:22:51,455 --> 00:22:55,665 And even in America, even our own history, because I'm from Chicago, but I 330 00:22:55,685 --> 00:22:57,485 lived in the South, I lived in Virginia. 331 00:22:58,645 --> 00:23:01,254 It was always the civil war, but I moved down here to Virginia 332 00:23:01,254 --> 00:23:02,195 and they said, no, no, no. 333 00:23:02,195 --> 00:23:03,905 It's the war of Northern aggression. 334 00:23:05,114 --> 00:23:11,815 And then I learned about Abraham Lincoln in prisoning people on the, 335 00:23:11,895 --> 00:23:15,425 on the side of the North, because they didn't want to fight in the war. 336 00:23:15,425 --> 00:23:18,585 There was conscious object, uh, conscientious objectors and there's 337 00:23:18,585 --> 00:23:22,085 people that didn't agree and he went and jailed them, put them in camps. 338 00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:25,150 That's not something we were taught in Chicago, in the land 339 00:23:25,150 --> 00:23:26,620 of Lincoln, which is Illinois. 340 00:23:26,690 --> 00:23:27,090 So 341 00:23:28,449 --> 00:23:29,110 Shebana: it's true. 342 00:23:29,199 --> 00:23:30,360 It changes the story. 343 00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:35,489 I mean, I was, I lived in Spain for two years and it, it took me to the 344 00:23:35,489 --> 00:23:41,199 other side of colonization because I was in, for example, in Cadiz where 345 00:23:41,210 --> 00:23:45,960 there's a plaque still in a plaza where Columbus left on his second voyage. 346 00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:50,879 And it says you till this day to bring evangelization 347 00:23:50,899 --> 00:23:52,749 and culture to the new world. 348 00:23:53,205 --> 00:23:54,045 Timothy: Oh, my gosh. 349 00:23:54,225 --> 00:23:56,925 Shebana: And that plaque was dedicated in 1993. 350 00:23:58,564 --> 00:24:02,134 I'm just saying how history is taught in Spain in terms of what 351 00:24:02,134 --> 00:24:03,965 colonization, it's a different story. 352 00:24:04,004 --> 00:24:09,084 And I've had very interesting conversations in Spain about colonization. 353 00:24:10,034 --> 00:24:10,874 Timothy: Oh my goodness. 354 00:24:10,944 --> 00:24:11,215 Right. 355 00:24:11,215 --> 00:24:11,504 Why? 356 00:24:11,514 --> 00:24:14,914 And even in America here, we have our own colonization story and 357 00:24:15,425 --> 00:24:19,314 slavery story and how one day. 358 00:24:19,645 --> 00:24:23,375 Somebody listening to this podcast is going to write the correct story and 359 00:24:23,375 --> 00:24:27,955 the correct history and hopefully knock on wood and they'll email us both and 360 00:24:27,965 --> 00:24:29,905 they'll hire you to do the poem and. 361 00:24:30,504 --> 00:24:34,215 And, uh, they'll have me do the podcast and we'll all make a million dollars. 362 00:24:34,504 --> 00:24:34,914 So, 363 00:24:36,975 --> 00:24:40,164 Shebana: I just, I think the story keeps depending on where you are. 364 00:24:40,164 --> 00:24:42,475 I guess that's the thing where you are. 365 00:24:42,475 --> 00:24:43,844 The story keeps changing. 366 00:24:44,844 --> 00:24:46,094 Timothy: Yeah, that is true. 367 00:24:46,514 --> 00:24:47,335 That is true. 368 00:24:48,054 --> 00:24:50,865 Let's talk a little bit about your creative process. 369 00:24:50,875 --> 00:24:56,394 So like, for example, you know, having, having tea with fear. 370 00:24:58,015 --> 00:24:59,015 Where does that come? 371 00:24:59,495 --> 00:25:05,385 How do you get that idea out of the ether to do that and to do it as a play? 372 00:25:05,615 --> 00:25:07,055 Where does that come from for you? 373 00:25:08,145 --> 00:25:10,265 Shebana: It was very strange, I will say, this, this poem. 374 00:25:10,265 --> 00:25:15,145 I wrote it in 2016 and I was like, I, I felt very young in poetry in that year, 375 00:25:15,145 --> 00:25:20,584 2014, maybe, I really, and I would get up in the mornings, like really early 376 00:25:20,585 --> 00:25:24,805 and write, you know, and really just play in Freeride and sometimes use prompts. 377 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:30,480 I have, I do these workshops now where I really, maybe in some way I was 378 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,700 doing what I do in the workshops now, which is I was really inviting people 379 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:38,249 to playfully engage with their fear, their stuckness, their everything 380 00:25:38,259 --> 00:25:39,889 is just so the words can come out. 381 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,270 So with that, for example, was the wildest thing that ever happened to 382 00:25:45,270 --> 00:25:50,060 me because I wrote this poem, which is this whole encounter with fear where you 383 00:25:50,130 --> 00:25:54,665 you're frozen and you move and there's dancers and then you Here's six years 384 00:25:54,665 --> 00:25:56,784 old and then you're in, I mean all this. 385 00:25:57,525 --> 00:26:01,335 And I looked at that poem and I'm like, this poem needs to be performed. 386 00:26:02,525 --> 00:26:06,594 But at that time I was just beginning to dance flamenco or study it, you know? 387 00:26:07,384 --> 00:26:11,645 And before that I'd worked behind the scenes in docu as a producer 388 00:26:11,645 --> 00:26:13,045 and director of documentaries. 389 00:26:13,065 --> 00:26:17,115 Um, So like behind the camera, I was so embarrassed to even 390 00:26:17,115 --> 00:26:18,975 see photos of myself online. 391 00:26:19,004 --> 00:26:24,235 So when, when I said to myself, someone needs to perform this, I went, Oh, 392 00:26:28,704 --> 00:26:32,754 Timothy: I'm glad it was you because you're the originator of that. 393 00:26:32,794 --> 00:26:35,624 I, you're, well, like I was saying earlier, the vessel. 394 00:26:36,565 --> 00:26:41,465 From which that needs to come through and only you could do it. 395 00:26:42,215 --> 00:26:44,925 Shebana: I didn't realize that at that time, how much I loved the stage. 396 00:26:44,925 --> 00:26:46,035 I was terrified of it. 397 00:26:46,035 --> 00:26:49,604 I mean, I grew up, my mother would tell stories of how I would cry. 398 00:26:49,645 --> 00:26:55,264 If I went anywhere that looked like a stage, even, you know, so it 399 00:26:55,265 --> 00:26:57,095 took me on this journey, this poem. 400 00:26:57,755 --> 00:27:02,105 How things happen, you know, like I saw a notice that there was a 401 00:27:02,465 --> 00:27:07,585 workshop on the source of performance energy in India using ancient texts, 402 00:27:07,965 --> 00:27:11,755 like the Vedas, because there is actually a book of theater in a Veda. 403 00:27:12,705 --> 00:27:16,255 Anyway, I went to India and I did this thing, this course that just 404 00:27:16,265 --> 00:27:18,634 blew everything open inside of me. 405 00:27:18,635 --> 00:27:22,844 And I came back and, but nothing happened for like a year. 406 00:27:22,844 --> 00:27:27,805 And then one year, one February, I was like, I have to do this. 407 00:27:27,805 --> 00:27:32,625 This, this poem is actually a lot, is a longer play about 408 00:27:32,625 --> 00:27:36,815 the impact of colonization and art and fear and my story. 409 00:27:36,845 --> 00:27:38,304 And I have to tell it. 410 00:27:38,835 --> 00:27:42,095 And I borrowed money and I, for four months, I did 411 00:27:42,095 --> 00:27:44,474 nothing but work on the play. 412 00:27:45,030 --> 00:27:51,179 Found a dance teachers to work with and other friends to help me develop the text. 413 00:27:51,230 --> 00:27:57,279 And I rented a space in Santa Fe in August of 2018 for two nights and I performed it. 414 00:27:57,279 --> 00:27:58,479 And that's how it began. 415 00:27:58,489 --> 00:28:03,169 It was the craziest thing, the truest thing I've ever done. 416 00:28:03,850 --> 00:28:06,569 And I still don't know how it happened, but it happened. 417 00:28:08,369 --> 00:28:12,259 Timothy: It's the universe coming together for you and making that happen for sure. 418 00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:12,960 For sure. 419 00:28:13,870 --> 00:28:15,570 Now tell me, because I've, I've done. 420 00:28:15,850 --> 00:28:19,540 Performance poetry and, and I've actually been on stage to, I'm a, 421 00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:23,670 I'm a theater kid from high school and I was always the backstage kid, 422 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,909 but when I stand in front of a crowd. 423 00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:33,510 One thing that probably did for the first 10, 10 years of performing 424 00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:40,999 was I would get very angry at the crowd and, and I would, I would use 425 00:28:41,030 --> 00:28:44,419 that energy to fuel my performance. 426 00:28:44,990 --> 00:28:48,649 And of course they would always have me playing the big dumb truck driver 427 00:28:48,649 --> 00:28:55,339 or the, you know, the, the hippie hot smoking surfer dude who had this, 428 00:28:55,399 --> 00:29:00,709 you know, fireball of energy to get up on the stage and do that for you. 429 00:29:00,719 --> 00:29:01,029 What? 430 00:29:01,445 --> 00:29:05,475 really powers your performance on the stage? 431 00:29:08,275 --> 00:29:09,995 Shebana: It depends what I'm doing. 432 00:29:10,165 --> 00:29:15,684 So when I first began going on the stage, I was dancing flamenco, and so 433 00:29:15,685 --> 00:29:18,154 it depended on the energy of each thing. 434 00:29:19,305 --> 00:29:23,465 I think what I love, Tim, is the liveness, the encounter, the 435 00:29:23,475 --> 00:29:25,785 live encounter with other humans. 436 00:29:26,645 --> 00:29:27,425 being there. 437 00:29:28,075 --> 00:29:28,885 That's what happened. 438 00:29:28,885 --> 00:29:30,175 I, I think that's the charge. 439 00:29:30,175 --> 00:29:34,675 I felt, you know, that I couldn't name, but now I know it, I know it's 440 00:29:34,675 --> 00:29:39,715 suddenly this happens in me, like, Mm-Hmm, , it's adrenaline for sure. 441 00:29:39,715 --> 00:29:42,145 Your mouth goes dry and all that. 442 00:29:42,645 --> 00:29:45,735 And then I think the, it's the sense of play. 443 00:29:45,824 --> 00:29:48,615 I, I really, the sense of play, like I never ex. 444 00:29:49,950 --> 00:29:52,700 I'm still like, you know, when you're really young in something and 445 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:58,140 it's play because I never expected to love it the way that I love it. 446 00:29:59,940 --> 00:30:03,460 And I'm like, I think it's many things are happening. 447 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,870 I think like it frees you. 448 00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:08,620 You get to, I get to be so many emotions. 449 00:30:08,660 --> 00:30:09,440 Maybe that's what it is. 450 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,099 It's not one. 451 00:30:10,099 --> 00:30:10,780 It's the flow. 452 00:30:10,780 --> 00:30:13,840 It's like I can make myself cry. 453 00:30:13,870 --> 00:30:17,159 Not because I'm trying, but because my heart is so open 454 00:30:17,170 --> 00:30:19,260 to sadness when I'm on stage. 455 00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:25,320 Timothy: That's a lot easier than carrying an onion with you and making yourself cry. 456 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:25,880 That's for sure. 457 00:30:26,380 --> 00:30:26,890 Shebana: That's right. 458 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:28,810 You know, I could really get that. 459 00:30:29,295 --> 00:30:32,095 With the same problem if someone coughs and it could throw you off too, 460 00:30:32,095 --> 00:30:36,405 you know, and your sadness could go away in some phlegm, someone else's 461 00:30:37,084 --> 00:30:42,635 phlegm, the sound of someone's phlegm, but I think it's the liveness and 462 00:30:42,635 --> 00:30:47,055 the playfulness and the freedom to, to, to go through different emotions. 463 00:30:47,510 --> 00:30:52,140 Timothy: Piggybacking off of that, for you, when, when you're going out and 464 00:30:52,150 --> 00:30:56,090 looking at other people's work, maybe you're going to a play, maybe you're 465 00:30:56,090 --> 00:31:03,280 going to an art gallery and you know, the tricks that you use to, you know, 466 00:31:03,699 --> 00:31:07,330 maybe not tricks is the right word, but the techniques, there we go, the 467 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:13,540 techniques that you use to get to that emotional point, is the magic of the 468 00:31:13,540 --> 00:31:15,089 performance or the art performance. 469 00:31:15,620 --> 00:31:22,340 At that point, because you know, what's going on, is that lost for you or are 470 00:31:22,340 --> 00:31:27,069 you able to easily go into the world that's being created for you in a 471 00:31:27,069 --> 00:31:29,570 performance or, or, or anything like 472 00:31:29,570 --> 00:31:30,569 Shebana: that? 473 00:31:31,849 --> 00:31:33,100 Yeah, I hear what you're saying. 474 00:31:33,489 --> 00:31:38,450 I think, so I feel, I feel I'm easily swept away when, like, when something gets 475 00:31:38,450 --> 00:31:43,340 me, it gets me and I'm there like, uh, I mean, I'll, I'll notice some things like. 476 00:31:43,340 --> 00:31:43,404 Yeah. 477 00:31:43,765 --> 00:31:47,885 For example, if something is gonna, says it's a documentary and I'm really 478 00:31:47,885 --> 00:31:51,025 moved by it, but then I notice all these different camera angles, I'm like, 479 00:31:51,095 --> 00:31:54,105 yeah, no, I, you know, or something, then they're like, they did this in 480 00:31:54,115 --> 00:31:57,034 a couple of takes that moment, you know, things like that, my mind gets 481 00:31:57,034 --> 00:31:58,845 on that, like, how did they film that? 482 00:31:58,845 --> 00:31:59,985 How did it get so close? 483 00:31:59,985 --> 00:32:01,354 Things like that with film. 484 00:32:03,490 --> 00:32:05,020 Um, so that comes. 485 00:32:05,020 --> 00:32:07,040 I mean, I think that awareness comes, but I don't know. 486 00:32:07,050 --> 00:32:10,010 It only takes away if there's something dissonant, you know, if 487 00:32:10,010 --> 00:32:12,850 it's like alerting me to something. 488 00:32:13,690 --> 00:32:17,419 I'm just trying to imagine like I saw this film that I really loved. 489 00:32:17,419 --> 00:32:18,919 It's called the four mountains. 490 00:32:18,919 --> 00:32:20,589 I think you would really like it. 491 00:32:20,589 --> 00:32:23,069 It's an Italian film. 492 00:32:23,069 --> 00:32:25,040 It's a really beautiful film about a boy. 493 00:32:27,150 --> 00:32:31,950 A city boy who goes to the country and his friendship with someone there, 494 00:32:31,950 --> 00:32:33,780 but it's all connected to his father. 495 00:32:33,780 --> 00:32:37,660 When his father dies, he leaves him this cabin in the mountains that he 496 00:32:37,660 --> 00:32:39,574 needs to finish working with his family. 497 00:32:40,115 --> 00:32:43,495 With this, and it's really about bringing the sun back into a connection with 498 00:32:43,495 --> 00:32:48,884 nature, but it's such a beautifully written film, it just amazes me when 499 00:32:48,885 --> 00:32:52,034 films can be so poetic and keep that. 500 00:32:52,035 --> 00:32:53,425 I don't know what to say about it. 501 00:32:53,464 --> 00:32:57,355 So I say, I guess I looked at that film like, Oh my God, the 502 00:32:57,355 --> 00:32:59,034 work that went into filming. 503 00:32:59,490 --> 00:33:03,980 You know, I was thinking about all the shots and I'm like, it amazes me. 504 00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:10,540 It amazes me what goes into film to make a poetic film, even. 505 00:33:11,020 --> 00:33:14,900 So I guess what I'm saying is I'm no, I'm still, I am really susceptible 506 00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:16,619 if something moves me, it moves me. 507 00:33:16,619 --> 00:33:23,030 And I only am jarred out of the story if something feels off, you know. 508 00:33:23,515 --> 00:33:24,195 Timothy: Absolutely. 509 00:33:24,235 --> 00:33:25,355 No, I, I get it. 510 00:33:25,365 --> 00:33:30,385 And for me, that's still seeing it on film is still magical for me 511 00:33:30,385 --> 00:33:34,975 because I don't quite understand everything that goes on behind it. 512 00:33:35,415 --> 00:33:40,274 If I watch some live theater, my wife hates going to live theater with me 513 00:33:40,274 --> 00:33:42,605 because I used to do light design. 514 00:33:43,464 --> 00:33:47,265 So I would go, Oh, I, I can tell you what's going to happen next because 515 00:33:47,265 --> 00:33:52,260 this guy's using this shade of red or this shade of blue or, you know, Oh, 516 00:33:52,260 --> 00:33:55,900 you want me to look over here while something over there is going on. 517 00:33:55,930 --> 00:34:01,849 So, unfortunately for me, some things, the magic, my analytical 518 00:34:01,850 --> 00:34:03,600 mind gets in the way too much. 519 00:34:03,959 --> 00:34:07,730 And I think I need to take a page out of your book and just 520 00:34:07,770 --> 00:34:11,439 allow myself to be taken away and I'll have a much better time. 521 00:34:11,509 --> 00:34:13,709 So I'll let my wife know that. 522 00:34:14,889 --> 00:34:15,570 Shebana: No, but I hear you. 523 00:34:15,580 --> 00:34:16,390 It is challenging. 524 00:34:16,420 --> 00:34:17,600 Sometimes I can be something. 525 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,130 I don't like something I can. 526 00:34:19,330 --> 00:34:19,960 You don't want to. 527 00:34:20,325 --> 00:34:21,545 Be watching a film with me. 528 00:34:24,595 --> 00:34:25,855 Timothy: Well, my wife did that. 529 00:34:25,865 --> 00:34:29,475 We were, she likes these Hallmark channel, the Murder Mysteries. 530 00:34:30,024 --> 00:34:35,565 And there was one about this podcaster that was a investigator 531 00:34:35,955 --> 00:34:38,205 was doing a true crime podcast. 532 00:34:38,925 --> 00:34:43,795 And for the first 10 minutes, I just ripped it apart because I was like, 533 00:34:43,935 --> 00:34:45,665 that's not how you use that equipment. 534 00:34:45,675 --> 00:34:46,735 You don't do this. 535 00:34:46,755 --> 00:34:47,895 You can't do that. 536 00:34:48,665 --> 00:34:51,415 And my wife was just like, listen, we're just not going to watch this. 537 00:34:51,675 --> 00:34:57,335 I couldn't get into the story because there was so much 538 00:34:57,365 --> 00:34:59,035 wrong technically with it. 539 00:34:59,045 --> 00:35:01,975 So it's something I'm working on and I'm going to take a page 540 00:35:01,975 --> 00:35:03,085 out of your book with that. 541 00:35:04,115 --> 00:35:07,835 So I'd like to talk to you a little bit about your daily routine. 542 00:35:07,835 --> 00:35:12,670 We've, we've, we've kind of talked A lot of big themes here with your work. 543 00:35:13,390 --> 00:35:19,680 So for my, you know, for my folks out there that are brand new, I know 544 00:35:19,730 --> 00:35:24,770 when you're hearing this interview, you're like, wow, I can't ever do that. 545 00:35:26,020 --> 00:35:27,640 Everybody can do this. 546 00:35:27,909 --> 00:35:31,300 What is your, a typical day for you? 547 00:35:31,310 --> 00:35:34,530 What, what's your routine and, and how you create? 548 00:35:35,170 --> 00:35:38,920 Shebana: And first I want to agree with you that yes, like everyone has their own 549 00:35:38,930 --> 00:35:44,840 journey with creating and it's doesn't matter what you want to do with it. 550 00:35:44,849 --> 00:35:48,749 Really, it matters first that you not matters that I just want to 551 00:35:49,140 --> 00:35:52,880 encourage people to just that follow that impulse because it just takes 552 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,189 you places you would never imagine. 553 00:35:55,250 --> 00:35:58,580 I really will tell you that I did not grow up thinking I 554 00:35:58,580 --> 00:36:00,820 would ever be creating things. 555 00:36:00,850 --> 00:36:05,050 I was just someone who was really moved to read and even in college. 556 00:36:05,435 --> 00:36:09,555 The, the kids who created with those other creative writing kids over 557 00:36:09,555 --> 00:36:11,685 there, they weren't me, you know? 558 00:36:12,615 --> 00:36:18,865 And so, yeah, I, and my routine, it really varies depending cause I've, 559 00:36:18,925 --> 00:36:23,895 I've freelanced, you know, I, I, it's, it's been quite a journey, I will say 560 00:36:23,914 --> 00:36:29,275 since I left kind of since my thirties when I'd like left a city and said, I'm 561 00:36:29,275 --> 00:36:31,825 going to go traveling in, in nature. 562 00:36:33,145 --> 00:36:37,995 I, my routine has really been different depending on where I am, but what I, 563 00:36:38,185 --> 00:36:42,795 and I go through seasons of writing a lot and seasons of writing very little, 564 00:36:43,795 --> 00:36:48,095 but I'm not afraid of those seas of the, um, of those days now where I 565 00:36:48,115 --> 00:36:49,695 don't write as much as I would like. 566 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,360 When I was younger, I was really afraid of not doing things like once 567 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,670 a day or this much and that much. 568 00:36:59,609 --> 00:37:04,259 But now, because it's such a long relationship, I know that I have to 569 00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:06,280 nurture it in many different ways. 570 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,710 So yes, to write, you have to write, but sometimes you also need to go 571 00:37:11,710 --> 00:37:17,085 for a walk and you need to, you know, I get some, I, I, I like exercise. 572 00:37:17,085 --> 00:37:22,365 I like to dance, you know, and if I don't do that, I, I feel my creativity. 573 00:37:23,295 --> 00:37:25,595 Sometimes like, I love to get up. 574 00:37:26,525 --> 00:37:31,065 I go through phases where I love to get up really, really early, like five 575 00:37:31,065 --> 00:37:34,865 o'clock early and meditate and write. 576 00:37:37,950 --> 00:37:41,590 Timothy: I have a clock off and that's when I was commuting, 577 00:37:41,590 --> 00:37:42,960 I would be up at four o'clock. 578 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,320 So, but I wasn't meditating and writing. 579 00:37:45,350 --> 00:37:46,450 I was catching your dream. 580 00:37:46,570 --> 00:37:47,110 Oh 581 00:37:47,690 --> 00:37:48,060 Shebana: yeah. 582 00:37:48,060 --> 00:37:49,640 And that's different when you're, yeah. 583 00:37:49,739 --> 00:37:51,450 And I used to like nights, but. 584 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,870 No, but I do it little by little. 585 00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:58,020 It's like I'm, I'm learning to real, I'm learning the little by little, 586 00:37:58,670 --> 00:38:01,599 especially when, as I've started working on bigger things now, so 587 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,350 I'm like working on a novel now. 588 00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:08,199 And that you really have to put in a little and see it change 589 00:38:08,199 --> 00:38:09,629 and stuff that you don't know. 590 00:38:09,629 --> 00:38:14,850 I mean, it's just, so I guess I try to do something creative every day 591 00:38:15,620 --> 00:38:17,380 and I don't even, I'm not even trying. 592 00:38:18,665 --> 00:38:19,285 I must. 593 00:38:21,835 --> 00:38:24,215 Timothy: It's like breathing and eating and, you know, 594 00:38:24,215 --> 00:38:26,895 doing your normal bodily stuff. 595 00:38:26,985 --> 00:38:29,274 You got to create something each and every day. 596 00:38:29,585 --> 00:38:30,055 Shebana: Yeah. 597 00:38:30,924 --> 00:38:32,075 Timothy: That's awesome to hear. 598 00:38:32,895 --> 00:38:39,065 Something that you had said that I really resonated with was when you were saying 599 00:38:39,075 --> 00:38:45,480 that You know, maybe you're not, you have the seasons where you're writing a 600 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,140 lot, where you're writing a little bit. 601 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,540 And when you first were writing, if you weren't writing something every 602 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,040 day, you know, you felt bad about that. 603 00:38:53,329 --> 00:38:58,820 I was, uh, the same way I, I would try to crank out four poems a day 604 00:38:58,820 --> 00:39:00,569 when I first started writing poetry. 605 00:39:01,629 --> 00:39:05,910 And I can tell you right now, I haven't written a poem since April, 606 00:39:06,510 --> 00:39:10,310 but I'm okay with that because I do the, uh, national global. 607 00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:15,400 Poetry writing months, uh, every April and I'm okay with. 608 00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:19,560 Yeah, it's been a few months since I've written poetry, but I've done 609 00:39:19,610 --> 00:39:23,990 other things, you know, I've created podcast episodes and paintings and 610 00:39:23,990 --> 00:39:26,100 drawings and all that kind of stuff. 611 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:34,435 But I really resonated with that, that you don't let those shit Dry seasons or 612 00:39:34,435 --> 00:39:41,225 those smaller seasons really impact the overall thing, the overall creativity. 613 00:39:41,655 --> 00:39:43,585 It took me 51 years to get there. 614 00:39:43,595 --> 00:39:45,315 So you've got me beat. 615 00:39:45,935 --> 00:39:47,295 Shebana: No, I'm 51 too. 616 00:39:47,305 --> 00:39:47,795 So 617 00:39:47,795 --> 00:39:49,395 Timothy: I 618 00:39:49,395 --> 00:39:53,495 Shebana: guess what I would say is it's connected to maybe as you get older, but 619 00:39:53,555 --> 00:39:58,135 for me, you know, different people, I don't feel, I'm asking what is it for? 620 00:39:58,415 --> 00:39:59,755 Why am I creating? 621 00:40:00,255 --> 00:40:02,575 I realized that for example, when I was younger, it really 622 00:40:02,575 --> 00:40:06,105 mattered to me to be seen and be published in particular places. 623 00:40:06,105 --> 00:40:10,545 And sometimes I'm still sending my work out to journals and literary journals. 624 00:40:10,545 --> 00:40:15,255 And, and there's one, I was watching something and the question was 625 00:40:15,255 --> 00:40:16,495 like, why are you doing this? 626 00:40:16,514 --> 00:40:18,445 Like, what kind of journals do you want to get into? 627 00:40:18,445 --> 00:40:19,335 Why are you doing this? 628 00:40:19,335 --> 00:40:23,685 Because you can get into journals for community, other writers, or you want to. 629 00:40:23,985 --> 00:40:27,085 You get into journals that agents read because you really want an agent. 630 00:40:27,085 --> 00:40:28,775 And I do want all of those things. 631 00:40:28,775 --> 00:40:33,824 But the part of me that is, that I haven't lived as maybe I haven't expressed as 632 00:40:33,824 --> 00:40:37,194 much, even though I've lived it is for want of a better word is spirituality 633 00:40:37,194 --> 00:40:43,085 or nature or this thing you can't name and it's, and I'm, you know, if, if I 634 00:40:43,085 --> 00:40:48,065 don't have a spirit, this kind of spirit feeling, if all I'm around are writers 635 00:40:48,115 --> 00:40:53,175 who only want to get published, I'm saying in a particular kind of place. 636 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,560 Then I realized I don't want that, you know, like that. 637 00:40:58,370 --> 00:41:04,550 I appreciate that that can matter, but I don't want to write only to be published 638 00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:10,240 in so and so journal, you know, there is something, there's something else that 639 00:41:10,269 --> 00:41:17,645 wants to be, and so it's like, And it's changing how I think about this art. 640 00:41:19,185 --> 00:41:22,445 It's making it less separate than who I am as a human. 641 00:41:23,025 --> 00:41:26,455 Timothy: I used to be, uh, in some writing workshops. 642 00:41:27,585 --> 00:41:30,845 And sometimes those can be really toxic. 643 00:41:31,505 --> 00:41:35,605 And the one I was in was extremely toxic because, you know, we sat there with, 644 00:41:35,665 --> 00:41:40,915 you know, about five bottles of whiskey and, and not much writing got done, but 645 00:41:40,915 --> 00:41:44,154 we were complaining and moaning and, you know, why aren't we published here? 646 00:41:44,154 --> 00:41:45,594 Why aren't we published there? 647 00:41:45,625 --> 00:41:49,935 You know, and the, the establishment doesn't understand us, but 648 00:41:49,964 --> 00:41:52,085 no, I, I, I kind of get it. 649 00:41:52,095 --> 00:41:54,175 It's kind of who you surround yourself with. 650 00:41:54,195 --> 00:41:57,415 And if you're just trying for one thing, why? 651 00:41:57,425 --> 00:41:57,445 Yeah. 652 00:41:58,020 --> 00:42:03,000 You know, why, why are, why do you want to just be published in the Paris Review? 653 00:42:03,540 --> 00:42:08,030 It's a great magazine, great journal, but there's so many others that are out there 654 00:42:08,830 --> 00:42:12,489 or better yet, publish your own, you know, 655 00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:20,120 Shebana: go out and, you know, I'm playing with other ways, other ways to share. 656 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,590 And because really my, I feel like my mission is, that's why I really 657 00:42:24,590 --> 00:42:26,010 resonate with what you're doing. 658 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,610 Is that like art is not only for artists, you know, you're not creativity is not 659 00:42:31,610 --> 00:42:33,820 just so you can be creative as an artist. 660 00:42:33,820 --> 00:42:35,360 It's for everybody. 661 00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:38,989 It's like the oldest, it's a human heritage. 662 00:42:38,990 --> 00:42:43,429 We were so moved all those, you know, thousands of years ago that our 663 00:42:43,429 --> 00:42:48,860 hands of their own accord put paint on it and made marks on a cave wall. 664 00:42:49,325 --> 00:42:54,655 You know, that impulse to be witness to, so I guess at this age, I'm just 665 00:42:54,665 --> 00:42:57,535 tapping into those impulses to create. 666 00:42:57,555 --> 00:43:01,505 And I'm in this time of transformation. 667 00:43:01,505 --> 00:43:02,484 I'm in a time of limbo. 668 00:43:02,484 --> 00:43:05,964 I feel like I don't, I feel I have to be really still. 669 00:43:06,614 --> 00:43:09,775 And like, I don't know what's going to come next, but I know it 670 00:43:09,775 --> 00:43:11,625 can't look like what came before 671 00:43:12,875 --> 00:43:13,905 Timothy: you're adding. 672 00:43:14,350 --> 00:43:20,880 Your color, your tapestry to the overall tapestry of the universe, and I don't mean 673 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:28,250 to sound spiritual woo woo there, which I'm spiritual person, but I see it as 674 00:43:28,969 --> 00:43:31,240 we've had all this stuff come before us. 675 00:43:31,580 --> 00:43:38,290 Now we're here today, what are we going to add to what has come before us? 676 00:43:38,300 --> 00:43:41,770 Where are we going to, what direction are we going to take? 677 00:43:42,249 --> 00:43:46,310 And then, cause I've got twins that are coming up right behind me. 678 00:43:46,529 --> 00:43:48,660 What direction are they going to take it? 679 00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:53,719 Cause that's, that's the thing that I'm excited about is seeing, you know, 680 00:43:53,829 --> 00:43:57,520 one of my daughters, she's starting to write poetry now she's 10 years old. 681 00:43:57,540 --> 00:44:00,349 And I'm like, where did you get this from? 682 00:44:00,740 --> 00:44:01,510 You know, I haven't. 683 00:44:01,980 --> 00:44:03,460 Yes, I have your read. 684 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,740 I have subscribed to kids poetry journals for you. 685 00:44:07,310 --> 00:44:08,730 Where do you get this from? 686 00:44:08,730 --> 00:44:09,970 This is fantastic. 687 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,370 And we just recently got her on stage. 688 00:44:12,949 --> 00:44:16,010 She was scared to death, but she got up there and she did 689 00:44:16,010 --> 00:44:17,640 it and she was a fantastic. 690 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:23,849 And, but yeah, I, I, I, I'm excited about what's going to happen and where, where, 691 00:44:23,899 --> 00:44:26,639 where we are going to leave our mark. 692 00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:31,330 For, for history and what stories they're going to tell about us in 10, 000 years. 693 00:44:31,340 --> 00:44:31,690 So 694 00:44:32,380 --> 00:44:35,040 Shebana: I think that's wonderful about your daughter and that it's that 695 00:44:35,220 --> 00:44:39,660 it's that kind of natural feeling that your daughter, the poetry coming out 696 00:44:39,660 --> 00:44:44,400 of her and the first saying, these are words that came out of my head. 697 00:44:45,515 --> 00:44:46,625 What is poetry? 698 00:44:47,065 --> 00:44:50,865 And it's just that I, I, I don't know. 699 00:44:50,865 --> 00:44:53,115 I just want people to play and feel free. 700 00:44:53,115 --> 00:44:56,745 Feel free to express who they are and see what the journey takes them. 701 00:44:56,745 --> 00:45:00,695 And, because I see, like when we create, you know, we, we get to 702 00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:02,435 the heart of each other so quickly. 703 00:45:02,435 --> 00:45:09,535 You see right into the heart of somebody and that really disarms, it's 704 00:45:09,535 --> 00:45:13,555 disarming that word, which is be like, it's like, oh, she's a disarming girl. 705 00:45:13,555 --> 00:45:18,175 Or very disarming, but it's actually, it changes the world as. 706 00:45:18,895 --> 00:45:20,945 One by one, all together. 707 00:45:22,385 --> 00:45:24,225 Timothy: A little bit less lonely too. 708 00:45:24,225 --> 00:45:27,925 I mean, being that vulnerable, being that, you know, being disarmed like that, 709 00:45:28,915 --> 00:45:36,215 it opens you up to other experiences and you know, like for me, what I was taught 710 00:45:36,235 --> 00:45:41,675 about history and all that, I didn't know Portugal had, you know, a colony in India. 711 00:45:41,715 --> 00:45:44,175 Now I'm like, now I need to go research that. 712 00:45:44,185 --> 00:45:46,435 For me, that's just like, Oh, I didn't know that. 713 00:45:46,435 --> 00:45:48,165 Now I need to learn everything about it. 714 00:45:48,795 --> 00:45:49,965 And that's. 715 00:45:51,115 --> 00:45:57,655 For me, even if I wasn't doing paintings or poetry or podcasting or, or any of 716 00:45:57,665 --> 00:46:04,355 that, that creativity, that creative spirit and being open and being 717 00:46:04,365 --> 00:46:07,605 vulnerable like that has done me wonders. 718 00:46:07,884 --> 00:46:13,425 It's kept me alive for 51 years and it's put me where I am today and has put me 719 00:46:13,435 --> 00:46:16,255 here and in my man cave talking with you. 720 00:46:17,130 --> 00:46:21,630 Who would have ever thought that, you know, you know, everything that we've 721 00:46:21,630 --> 00:46:23,430 done has brought us to this point. 722 00:46:23,430 --> 00:46:26,460 And I can't wait to see where we start going off tomorrow. 723 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:26,850 So, 724 00:46:27,820 --> 00:46:32,759 Shebana: yeah, it's true in spite of, and because of everything that 725 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:38,689 is happening in the world, it matters more than ever to express yourself 726 00:46:41,439 --> 00:46:43,179 creatively and yeah. 727 00:46:43,565 --> 00:46:45,155 Timothy: And it doesn't always have to be pretty. 728 00:46:45,155 --> 00:46:47,715 It doesn't always have to be a New York Times bestseller. 729 00:46:47,715 --> 00:46:53,115 It's, it's just people going out there and, and, and we need everybody to 730 00:46:53,115 --> 00:46:54,795 create, to make this a better world. 731 00:46:54,795 --> 00:46:59,245 So speaking about writing, you said you have a, you're 732 00:46:59,245 --> 00:47:01,134 working on a novel right now. 733 00:47:03,365 --> 00:47:05,835 And I got to tell you, novels scare me. 734 00:47:06,055 --> 00:47:09,825 I, I, I have tried 4 times now. 735 00:47:10,335 --> 00:47:10,725 Yeah. 736 00:47:10,845 --> 00:47:12,945 Novels for National Novel Writing Month. 737 00:47:13,734 --> 00:47:15,665 For you, how are you approaching that? 738 00:47:15,665 --> 00:47:19,185 Because a novel is, you know, 250, 300 pages. 739 00:47:19,530 --> 00:47:20,960 A thousand pages. 740 00:47:22,070 --> 00:47:23,110 That's a pretty big task. 741 00:47:23,110 --> 00:47:24,200 How are you approaching it? 742 00:47:25,070 --> 00:47:28,180 Shebana: If approaching it, there's a, we say, who is it? 743 00:47:28,660 --> 00:47:31,760 The guy, what's I forget his, I forget the writer's name, but there's a story, 744 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:38,890 one writer visiting the other in the house of writer number one, and they're 745 00:47:38,890 --> 00:47:43,520 walking around and they keep evading, like not going into the living room. 746 00:47:43,660 --> 00:47:47,970 And, and then finally. 747 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,840 One of the writers opens the living room and sees there's just one typewriter there 748 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:59,130 on the table and the writer whose house it is says, see that typewriter on it. 749 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:06,109 I'm writing a novel every now and then I slip in type a few words and slip out. 750 00:48:06,460 --> 00:48:10,850 He says, If a novel knows you are writing it, you're done for. 751 00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:13,560 Timothy: I love it. 752 00:48:14,190 --> 00:48:15,600 I love that story. 753 00:48:15,940 --> 00:48:16,260 Shebana: Yeah. 754 00:48:16,260 --> 00:48:17,270 It's a, Oh my God. 755 00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:18,830 I'm totally blanking on the name. 756 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,260 It's the guy who wrote the book about fly fishing. 757 00:48:21,260 --> 00:48:22,780 That's not about fly fishing. 758 00:48:23,260 --> 00:48:29,120 He's kind of the, the book it was mentioned in is, Oh God, 759 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:30,280 I'm blanking on everything. 760 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:31,800 I will have to send it to you. 761 00:48:32,190 --> 00:48:34,670 Pierre, someone is memoirs. 762 00:48:34,670 --> 00:48:36,480 He's a new, he's a writer in New Mexico. 763 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,489 It was, so I'm approaching it. 764 00:48:38,490 --> 00:48:43,125 I wrote like, You know, it's like in three sections, say, so it's called 765 00:48:43,125 --> 00:48:49,475 The Village at Night, and it's about an Indian woman following what is left 766 00:48:49,485 --> 00:48:55,385 of love in a small town in Portugal, and then following this musician. 767 00:48:56,685 --> 00:49:01,284 And so the first two are about their encounter, but the third section of 768 00:49:01,284 --> 00:49:06,175 the novel, which is the part I'm, I'm working on now is like another genre. 769 00:49:06,225 --> 00:49:08,505 So the, the, the first two sections, you would call it 770 00:49:08,505 --> 00:49:10,095 like literary fiction, right? 771 00:49:10,975 --> 00:49:15,325 And the third section, it goes into what you might call fantasy. 772 00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:19,260 Like sci fi, you know, like that kind of thing, sci fi fantasy, because 773 00:49:19,260 --> 00:49:24,730 it's like a whole other, the origin of song, you know, as she sees it, a whole 774 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,740 different human age and things like that. 775 00:49:27,330 --> 00:49:35,629 And I am so like, I'm over, I have a draft of it, but I don't know if it works. 776 00:49:35,630 --> 00:49:36,540 And it's almost like. 777 00:49:36,895 --> 00:49:38,835 I have to start again and get in there. 778 00:49:38,835 --> 00:49:43,965 So I'm like, I haven't worked on it for a couple of months because I've been 779 00:49:43,975 --> 00:49:47,125 working on other things that are easier to do, but it's there, it's there. 780 00:49:47,125 --> 00:49:49,385 I feel I'm working on it even as I'm not, you know, 781 00:49:49,995 --> 00:49:53,094 Timothy: or absolutely it's the typewriter is there. 782 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:58,950 Shebana: I slip in and we're not looking and I figure out the story. 783 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,280 So I think I, I really do. 784 00:50:02,290 --> 00:50:03,160 Sometimes you do. 785 00:50:03,180 --> 00:50:06,890 I don't know if your listeners know there are a network of writer's 786 00:50:06,890 --> 00:50:11,260 residencies, some of which pay you and some of which at least are free. 787 00:50:11,860 --> 00:50:14,129 And you just Google writer's residency. 788 00:50:14,259 --> 00:50:15,469 There's residence arts. 789 00:50:15,469 --> 00:50:19,830 There's so many places I, I do feel I need to kind of to jumpstart the 790 00:50:19,830 --> 00:50:21,670 third section, go away somewhere. 791 00:50:21,750 --> 00:50:26,120 You know, and, and, and that really helps me to, I really 792 00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,120 like going away into nature. 793 00:50:28,515 --> 00:50:31,725 Or a writer's residency or a retreat because it really helps to leave 794 00:50:31,725 --> 00:50:37,665 you everyday life, even if it's for a weekend, just to, you know, be 795 00:50:37,665 --> 00:50:41,864 yourself, to leave it behind, to feel like you're starting again and be 796 00:50:41,865 --> 00:50:44,385 alone with it and be in a fresh place. 797 00:50:44,415 --> 00:50:51,255 So I sort of feel third section needs something. 798 00:50:52,295 --> 00:50:53,574 I 799 00:50:54,135 --> 00:50:59,275 Timothy: think we can get you an NEA grant and have them pay to fly you out someplace 800 00:50:59,275 --> 00:51:04,044 where you can go ahead and have the typewriter in a corner and sneak up on it. 801 00:51:06,005 --> 00:51:07,455 We'll get working on that right away. 802 00:51:07,455 --> 00:51:09,324 Shebana: Yeah, that sounds great, Tim. 803 00:51:09,435 --> 00:51:10,355 I'm all for that. 804 00:51:11,234 --> 00:51:11,824 Timothy: Great. 805 00:51:12,775 --> 00:51:17,135 Well, I definitely want to thank you for, uh, coming, uh, onto the 806 00:51:17,135 --> 00:51:20,625 show here and, and, and spreading your knowledge and your experience. 807 00:51:20,634 --> 00:51:28,124 It is amazing when, when you reached out, uh, through a pod match, I was just looked 808 00:51:28,124 --> 00:51:29,974 at your profile, looked at the videos. 809 00:51:29,975 --> 00:51:32,764 And I said, got to have you on the show. 810 00:51:32,825 --> 00:51:36,905 I definitely got to have you on the show because just your approach, 811 00:51:36,905 --> 00:51:41,365 your way of doing things is it makes me want to get up and. 812 00:51:42,115 --> 00:51:45,835 Take my poetry and put some movement behind it because I'm so used to 813 00:51:45,835 --> 00:51:50,364 standing up there with you know with my script and Up at the Green Mill 814 00:51:50,364 --> 00:51:54,095 in Chicago and just working it out at people and having that fireball of 815 00:51:54,095 --> 00:51:55,675 energy going now I just want to go. 816 00:51:56,194 --> 00:51:56,585 You know what? 817 00:51:56,585 --> 00:52:00,255 I'm gonna drop the mic Memorize the poem and just move around the 818 00:52:00,255 --> 00:52:01,445 audience and see what happened. 819 00:52:01,955 --> 00:52:04,695 Shebana: Oh, Tim, Tim Yeah, I would love to see that or 820 00:52:05,015 --> 00:52:05,835 Timothy: yeah after a while. 821 00:52:05,835 --> 00:52:09,495 I'll get a video of it for you We'll get we'll get it shot out there to you by my 822 00:52:09,495 --> 00:52:12,590 nephew is You I can say that legally now. 823 00:52:12,730 --> 00:52:16,520 He owns a coffee shop and he's going to be opening it up in the 824 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,210 next couple of weeks and he's going to restart the poetry nights. 825 00:52:19,219 --> 00:52:23,130 So when that happens, you'll be getting a video from me. 826 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,360 Shebana: And I would love to do works. 827 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:25,779 Oh my God. 828 00:52:25,780 --> 00:52:26,780 It's very exciting. 829 00:52:26,780 --> 00:52:30,490 I love that it's in all these different spaces and I, yes, go for it. 830 00:52:30,890 --> 00:52:31,730 It's an experiment. 831 00:52:31,740 --> 00:52:32,560 See what happens. 832 00:52:32,590 --> 00:52:36,250 Cause, and I want to thank you for saying what you said about the hands 833 00:52:36,250 --> 00:52:41,165 calling to you even more sometimes than the words because I really feel 834 00:52:41,165 --> 00:52:44,965 that's where I got to go more into those hands, you know, into the body more. 835 00:52:45,735 --> 00:52:48,025 And yeah, I'm very inspired then also. 836 00:52:48,025 --> 00:52:48,295 So, 837 00:52:48,925 --> 00:52:50,875 Timothy: well, it's like using another voice. 838 00:52:50,895 --> 00:52:55,145 It's, it's, it's using another tool that we have, that we all have available to us. 839 00:52:55,164 --> 00:52:57,894 You know, if we have hands, we can use our hands. 840 00:52:57,895 --> 00:52:58,644 We have a voice. 841 00:52:58,645 --> 00:52:59,684 We use our voice. 842 00:53:00,304 --> 00:53:01,484 We obviously have minds. 843 00:53:01,504 --> 00:53:02,734 So we're using our minds. 844 00:53:03,074 --> 00:53:03,404 So 845 00:53:04,394 --> 00:53:04,964 Shebana: that is true. 846 00:53:05,765 --> 00:53:11,805 I just want to encourage everyone to just, liberate their voice, do what you love. 847 00:53:11,895 --> 00:53:12,905 It really matters. 848 00:53:12,975 --> 00:53:15,835 It seems like you're being selfish, but I think you're 849 00:53:15,835 --> 00:53:17,715 really helping heal the world. 850 00:53:20,525 --> 00:53:23,155 Timothy: That's how I can't end it on a better note than that. 851 00:53:23,444 --> 00:53:24,275 That's awesome. 852 00:53:24,754 --> 00:53:29,124 So I just want to thank you for listening to this episode and 853 00:53:29,124 --> 00:53:31,425 this interview with Shibana Koiho. 854 00:53:32,565 --> 00:53:38,865 It was, as you can tell, a, uh, a fun time, uh, had by both, uh, individuals. 855 00:53:39,430 --> 00:53:43,820 And we got to learn a lot about each other's process. 856 00:53:44,410 --> 00:53:49,470 And we got to think of a new way of doing our art. 857 00:53:50,140 --> 00:53:54,380 You know, a lot of times we get stuck in a certain way of doing things. 858 00:53:54,770 --> 00:54:00,470 And when we take ourselves out of the known and put ourselves into the unknown. 859 00:54:01,165 --> 00:54:06,065 And maybe add something to our art that we don't normally add, such as adding 860 00:54:06,075 --> 00:54:13,285 movement to poetry or maybe adding, um, a live painting to a poetry recital. 861 00:54:14,195 --> 00:54:19,014 Great things can come about and you never know what's going to happen, uh, when 862 00:54:19,015 --> 00:54:21,725 that happens and it's usually really good. 863 00:54:21,735 --> 00:54:24,805 So I know I took a lot away. 864 00:54:25,070 --> 00:54:26,450 From this conversation. 865 00:54:26,860 --> 00:54:30,310 And I want to thank Shabana for the time that she's put into it. 866 00:54:30,570 --> 00:54:32,710 And I want to encourage you to go out to her website. 867 00:54:33,355 --> 00:54:38,005 Again, links will be in the show notes and maybe even go ahead 868 00:54:38,035 --> 00:54:40,815 and, uh, hire her for a workshop. 869 00:54:40,945 --> 00:54:42,635 By all means, reach out to her. 870 00:54:42,635 --> 00:54:48,075 She's very approachable and she would love to help you with your creativity. 871 00:54:49,264 --> 00:54:51,844 Well that's all I have for you on this episode. 872 00:54:52,584 --> 00:54:57,385 Again, I want to thank you for taking a listen to our interview here today. 873 00:54:58,390 --> 00:55:01,110 So I would like to put out a challenge to you, no matter 874 00:55:01,110 --> 00:55:02,660 what discipline that you're in. 875 00:55:03,130 --> 00:55:07,799 Let's say you're a writer like myself, put some movement into your writing, 876 00:55:08,130 --> 00:55:12,969 you know, uh, drop the page, memorize the poem or memorize the short story 877 00:55:13,519 --> 00:55:15,900 and perform it in front of a group. 878 00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:22,139 Or if you're a dancer, write a poem that goes with your dance or 879 00:55:22,149 --> 00:55:25,789 write a piece of music that goes with your dance, whatever it is. 880 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:27,240 That's your challenge. 881 00:55:27,810 --> 00:55:31,470 So I just would like to, uh, remind you that we do have a newsletter, 882 00:55:31,590 --> 00:55:33,360 um, that comes out once a month. 883 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:38,130 It's on substack Timothy Bryan dot substack.com. 884 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,810 And if you'd like to reach out to me and possibly be interviewed on the show, 885 00:55:42,810 --> 00:55:45,990 or if you have ideas for the show or you'd like me to talk about something, 886 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,890 email me timothy@createartpodcast.com. 887 00:55:50,380 --> 00:55:53,590 I'd love to hear from you and I'd love to hear your critique of the show. 888 00:55:54,125 --> 00:55:56,585 What's going to make it a five star show for you? 889 00:55:56,615 --> 00:56:00,505 I really want this to be a show that you can pass on to your friends. 890 00:56:00,975 --> 00:56:06,135 And, uh, your colleagues and, you know, change the world 891 00:56:06,145 --> 00:56:07,505 in your corner of the world. 892 00:56:07,975 --> 00:56:10,605 So definitely email me, let me know what you think. 893 00:56:11,425 --> 00:56:14,695 Speaking about sharing the show, I do run another show called find a 894 00:56:14,695 --> 00:56:19,224 podcast about, you can find it at find a podcast about dot X, Y, Z. 895 00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,620 And that's where I listen to other podcasts and bring them back to you. 896 00:56:22,670 --> 00:56:27,080 The ones that I think are binge worthy and help you outsmart the algorithm and 897 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:28,940 find your next binge worthy podcast. 898 00:56:29,229 --> 00:56:31,670 And a lot of times I even have an interview with the 899 00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:33,470 podcast host themselves. 900 00:56:33,940 --> 00:56:35,759 So check that show out for yourself. 901 00:56:35,810 --> 00:56:40,110 It's called find a podcast about, you can find it at find a podcast about. 902 00:56:40,110 --> 00:56:41,180 Dot X, Y, Z. 903 00:56:41,995 --> 00:56:42,385 All right. 904 00:56:42,425 --> 00:56:45,865 We're at that point in the show where it's time for you to go out 905 00:56:45,865 --> 00:56:50,485 there and tame your inner critic, create more than you consume. 906 00:56:51,295 --> 00:56:56,504 And as you heard Shabana talk about adding movement to your 907 00:56:56,515 --> 00:56:59,124 work, it's like another tool. 908 00:56:59,124 --> 00:57:00,574 It's like another muscle. 909 00:57:01,005 --> 00:57:06,975 That you can go ahead and add into your work and maybe that's the thing 910 00:57:07,305 --> 00:57:08,765 that breaks through to your audience. 911 00:57:09,355 --> 00:57:13,815 But go out there and create some art for somebody you love, yourself. 912 00:57:14,344 --> 00:57:15,285 I'll talk to you next time.