Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of respecting the beer. My name is Gary Arndt and with me as usual is brewer extraordinaire, Bobby Fleshman, and with us again is historian and beer aficionado Joel Hermansen. How are you doing?

I'm really good. I didn't get an extraordinaire though.

No, you did not.

Noted.

This episode, we're going to do something a little different. We just want to focus on one product that you guys make. It's a beer called 547. It is a West coast, double IPA, and I'm going to leave it at that. And I want Bobby to explain where the origin of this beer came from. I don't, I don't think having a West coast, double IPA is in and of itself, a big thing. I'm sure a lot of breweries have something similar to that, but what was the Genesis of this particular beer?

I used to spend a lot of time in San Francisco when I was an astrophysicist. There were a lot of meetings out there and I found my way to this bar called the Tornado, whose address was 547 Haight Street. And I was also homebrewing, I think this is something like 20 years ago. And I went in there and I was like, And I naively asked for the best West Coast IPA and they, if you've been there, you know, the service is very unique to the tornado and they didn't even give me the time of day or have any dialogue exchanges through a bar or a beer across the bar at me. I drank it and I said, what was that? And it was. It was a beer called Pliny the Elder by Russian River Brewing Company. And that was one of those moments that just changed my life. I'm like, this, this is not anything like anything I've ever had. And I went on to, you know, brew that at home and, and investigate more who Russian River was. They weren't actually nationally known at this point.

Explain what a West Coast IPA is.

Yeah, West Coast, Americans tend to take it to 11 and this was taking it to 12. Cause this was, this was, an IPA that was well hopped, extremely late hopped. And what I mean by late hopped is putting the boil at the end or post fermentation or whatever. So you're keeping all the green terpene grassy, all those flavors in there. It was a, it was a style. It was really. It really came about when Vinny Chalorzo of Russian River opened the Blind Pig in San Diego, he started making these styles and it just changed the face of beer. It made America have its own style and, Fast forward, and he opens Russian River, Northern California. His number one bar, his number one client was a Tornado. So if every had one keg of something, they would get it. They had dibs on everything, and they'd never, ever run out of Pliny Dale at the Tornado. That will never happen. It's their number one seller out there, and it's like five bucks a pint. In San Francisco numbers, that's like a dollar. And yeah, I don't want to flood them. They're already busy enough, but make your way out there if you haven't been. So, you know, I got into home brewing. I was into it, but I was more into it for this reason and others, all these different experiences I had and digging into how to make hoppy beers led me to grow hops in my backyard. And we started making some fantastic, you know, seasonal harvest ales. And I was taking the cues from what they were doing. And we were making sort of, clones of this beer at some point that recipe gives it out because he knows not everyone can make this beer because just because there's a recipe there's all the stuff in between the lines that he's that he can't know to say but he gave the recipe out so we're brewing it and man was like getting a lot of recognition for someone else's beer this was really good stuff and my version was a little different but it was just so good And then I decided when we open this fast forward several years Allison and I actually were in the Toronado and we were, I think maybe we were brainstorming the brewery. Even then it was like 2010 or something. I looked over her shoulder and I saw the half door of the tornado open. They always have the half door open because there's only 1 weather in San Francisco. So the door is always open. And it said 547. I took a picture of her and that picture is on the wall downstairs. And I said, if we ever open a brewery and we were, I was leaning that way at that time anyway. we're calling if we make, if we open a brewery, we're going to make a double IPA and we're going to call it 547 for all the reasons. And so when it came time to open the brewery and I was developing recipes for it, I knew I couldn't just make Pliny the Elder. That was, you know, this is an homage. This isn't a copy. So I sat down and I knew what was in it, but I try not to think about it. And I think this is how musicians may, may or may not approach a song, but. I decided to be in that headspace, but, but not listen to it. So just to make that metaphor and what came out was this beer. And I threw in a couple of hops that he didn't use, but most of the hops are the same ones, but they're put in different orders. And that's in a way, it's like being the same key. And that's been a theme for a lot of beers we've been doing lately, but using the same notes different ways and it, this beer wasn't on brand, but it was on brand for me. So we built McFleshman's to be an English Ale and a German lager brewery, but I am a West Coast beer fan and I knew we were going to make a California common and I knew we were going to make at that time. I didn't know about a brute, but we did make a brute and we did really well with that. And I knew we were going to make this double IPA and eventually we would make pale ales and other lower strength IPAs. So we knew this is going to be a third leg of our chair. We would have three legs that hold up the brand of McFleshman's. It would be West Coast styles and then those other European styles. we kind of like, we put it out there as our number, maybe the seventh or eighth year we released and we first opened. And it got a warm reception, but I think they were a little confused by it because they were coming for hand pumps. They were coming for German lagers and then the crowd was Wisconsin, right? They're not California and a beer that big and hops 10 years ago. And at the time we opened, that was seven years ago. They still weren't. They still weren't ready for it. I don't think. And it's been kind of a slow build. And I think now it's about time I give the mic over because we had to get an ambassador in here. All right.

So

yeah,

so that's how the beer came about.

Yeah.

How did you discover it? And what's your background with respect? Cause you are, how shall I say a West coast IPA aficionado?

I am. Yeah. That's my, that's my favorite style of beer.

And when did you first, so did you have. Piney the Elder before a 547 or which came first?

So my, my origin story with the, it's, if I was out in San Francisco in 2015. I was taking a class at Stanford, that summer. And I spent, when I was out there, three, three different days. I was at Russian River for significant amounts of the day. And I, I, I, like you, it was just like, what, what is happening right now? Yeah. You know, this, this is unlike anything that I've ever had. And, and at that point we, we had IPAs. that, you know, had some acclaim behind them. You know, Bell's Two Hearted Ale was, was around at that point. But this was, you know, something totally different. While in San Francisco in 2015 as, you know, The resident deadhead here as well. I was in front of Jerry Garcia's old house on Hayden Ashbury, which is just a very short walk from Toronadoz and we went to Toronado I was there at Toronado for a couple of days. as well, and it's the most diverse, incredible place again, not to flood them with business, but if you get a chance, head over there and I had it there again, there was no disruption in the quality

Perfect glassware, perfect beer.

And so I had a long experience with with that before I got here, I first had 547. I think it was just before. Just pre COVID, in 2019, and I had that, that kind of that same epiphany moment where it's like, wow, you know, what I'm, what I'm drinking right now is, is extraordinary. And I, you mentioned that it's an homage, but it's, it's very, very different actually. It is. Yeah, we're done.

The blind tastings now and it's not even close to blind. I mean, you, it's not even close. They're very different.

I was actually going to ask you about this. You've done blind tastings, between 547 and Piney the Elder. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, how did this come about and what were the results?

That was my fault or idea. I had managed to get a bottle of elder and we decided, well, we're gonna, we're gonna put it up against 547. We had done it once before with another bottle that I had secured, but the second time we did it, I think we were a little bit more scientific with it because we wanted to make sure that the. Pliny, the elder that we had was bottled at a point that was similar to the 547. So we didn't just pull from the tap line. Yeah. That was going to be

my question. Yeah. It would be kind of unfair if you had a fresh beer versus, you know, an older. Correct.

We, we, we tried to take those variables into account and we got, you know, some of our our, our hop heads from the brewery. We had, you know, reached out and said, hey, we're planning to do this. And, and we did a blind tasting, literally blindfolded people with black the old COVID masks. Yeah, we had those. And I mean, yeah, the results were, were very, very clear. The 547, and if you've ever come into the brewery, I have a tendency to talk it up quite a bit. Because I, I just think it's exceptional. And I think the, the test data that we had that day kind of supported that.

The, the best data is it sells top in our volume and in our, our revenue in the tap room. And this is not a cheap beer to make or to buy. And that says a lot. People are voting with their dollar. It can't always be Joel behind the bar. There's...

So sorry. So let's talk about that. You're a fan of the beer.

I am.

You also work here.

I do

Selling beer. And you've developed over time. How should I put it?

A Cult?

You're a big g promoter of the 547 so much so that when people come in, you will almost always recommend it. Whether or not...

I always say don't pause because you'll end up with a 547 in front of Joel.

But this has kind of evolved into a thing, which is why we're kind of doing an episode just on this beer. The story behind it's interesting, but it's also kind of how this sort of local inside the building cult or mythology developed around it and explain that. Cause I think a lot of that has to do with you.

Thank you. well, number one, I'm a local guy. I mean, I'm from Appleton and I know. a huge number of people in town. So when people come in I usually have a level of comfort with whoever here and I, and I can, you know, I'm going to say this, I can be myself and just, you know, put my opinions out there and say that, Hey, if you're here, you know, you're probably interested in what I think is the best beer in the state. So I usually, you know, lead with that. If they indicate that they don't like double IPAs, Then I usually lead with it again, which, sometimes, you know, works. I've had people, and this is a, you've been here with me when this has happened, where there's, you know, someone that says, well, I don't like IPAs. And then you give them a sample and it's almost like that movie Ratatouille where the rat, you know, eats the cheese and like all the lights go off, you know, for people. You know, they're like, Oh my gosh, I have to have one of these. And I'm like, yeah, you'd like double IPA snow.

It's amazing. The, the spectrum of people that drink it, there's not a type for this beer. Which is kind of surprising, age or gender or anything. There's no way to know who's going to be one, a drinker of.

Right. And I have a pretty big personality. So when people come in, you know, I try to incorporate that into their experience. Because when you come in here, it should be an experience. And if you've not, you know, You know, Ben, here, we're up in the Prohibition Room right now, which is just a stunning room. The entire McFleshman's brewery visit should be an experience. And, I mean, the way that the building is structured, the way that the beer garden is structured, it's an experience. And I think 547 is a part of that. Are you going to talk about the bell or I,

First of all, I was going to ask you, what's the best soundtrack? What's the best soundtrack?

Oh, I a hundred percent. We actually on my, we have a San Francisco playlist that we like to tap into. And we played this. During 547 day last year and I sprinkle it in periodically.

You're in charge of the playlist this year if you want to do it again.

Yes, it'll be done.

Okay, so let's...

Got two subjects now.

Yeah. So 547 day, what is 547 day and how did that come about?

So the math behind it, I'm going to attribute to the math guy, but I've landed on a good date. Right. It did. I'm always of the opinion that we need to have. You know, we have stout week. We have October Fest which Lager Fest? Lager Fest. I mean, we, we have all of these, you know, fest and celebratory days that highlight a beer, but we needed a 5 47 day. So you chose a unique day.

It works out to be May 47th if you June 16th. If, if May had that many days. And people they think it's a typo and they scratch their head. They, they, they get it. They like it. It landed on a Saturday last year. There was a first year to do it. And this year it's not going. So we'll move it around a little bit. It's going to actually be June 21st this year, but we'll still call it 5 47 day. It also is the same weekend that we have our anniversary. So we always book in those together. It always be 5 47 on Friday. And then it'll be about our, our birthday the next day. But yeah, it was a success. We thought, is this going to be a big deal on a Friday? And it was an enormous, it was an enormous day on a Friday. I think people all called it in. It was great.

We, we did tie dyed shirts, you know, we had the theme, the music and you know, obviously when

We're getting a band this year, it's going to be a whole thing.

Yeah. When you look at, at the label of the beer, cause you had mentioned that earlier, the, the, the label of the beer. It really kind of harkens to that Haight Ashbury experience of the, of the late 60s, which is kind of a unique snapshot in history. And that, that beer kind of, when I, when I drink that beer and, and I'm listening, and I very seldom will drink a 547 when I'm not either listening to the Grateful Dead or the Jerry Garcia band. It, it's just kind of adds to that whole ratatouille lights, colors, the holy cow, kind of a moment that people have with it.

We have other ambassadors. Joel's created other ambassadors now for our brewery and that beer, Denny wonky of black gold. Yeah. He owns a company called black gold that moves, they're, they're an environmental company. They're working with food industry and stuff, but his. His company name, I think, is the name of, Central Waters, one of their big releases, Black Coal. At long point, long story short, he, he goes around the state saying now that 547 is an important product. And he's, he's driving all the time to get here. He might show up today.

Yeah, hopefully he does. Yeah. I, we have a lot of people who are putting that out there and. and, and celebrating it, elevating it. I don't think a week goes by where I don't see somebody at the grocery store at the Y and they'll say, Hey, 547 guy. And yeah, so I, I guess now I'm 547 guy is

those are worse things to be known.

I've been called a lot worse than 547 guy.

So a couple of months ago, however, you came up with another idea. for what to do when someone orders the 547. Explain how that came about. Might

be a year now we've been doing this. Yeah, I think it's Is it a year? Yeah, it's been a long time. It's

been up there for quite a while.

I think it was up before 547 day, wasn't it? Yeah. Last year. Cause

the, the logo on the shirt, it'll ring your bell. It'll ring your bell. So it's over

a year now, I think.

Yep. We needed a bell. And when I broached the subject the answer was pretty simple. I said, we, we need a bell because we need a spectacle that comes along with it. Pavlov's

dog.

Right. And it actually does. It, it acts almost like operant conditioning because somebody will be in the bar. Yeah. This happens. Every time I work here, I will pour someone a 547, I will give our bell an enthusiastic, ring, and invariably somebody within the next 30 to 90 seconds will wander up and say, why, what was the story, why did that bell ring? And I said, well, that's, that's our 547 bell. And they said, why do you have a 547 bell? And I said, why not? It's just an opportunity to have a spectacle. And then they

do know it elicits, clapping and cheering. Yes. And then someone that wasn't thinking about another beer might now be or whatever, the 547, yeah.

Yep. And you know, you can hear it resonate all throughout the brewery. You can hear it up in the prohibition room. You can hear it outside.

It would be perfect if someone ordered one right now. It would. Yeah. Yeah, it really would. The timing.

So, it's, I, I guess in a, in a way I know that the, the last episode you guys were talking about marketing, in a sense it's a, it's a marketing, activity that's, that's kind of unintentional. I, I wanted to do it because it's fun and I enjoy a spectacle. And people we've had, you know, people that we're so, you know, impressed and they're like, would I be able to ring the bell? And I'm like, absolutely. It's like the wheel and price. So we've had countless people that, you know, came back, rang the bell. They got, took a picture, you know, of them. But...

Are you kidding me?

There it is. There it is.

well, the reason why we're doing a full episode on this is because A lot of this happened organically. Like this wasn't a business plan where it's like, okay, we're going to brew this beer and we're going to do all these things. It was just. You know, you had an ambassador and Joel and these things kind of happened and it ended up becoming, you know, your bestselling beer, as a result.

In a lot of ways. Yeah. I tried to not put focus on it so I could put it on the other ones that were in wholesale and may have a wider footprint. So yeah, you're right. It's organic.

It actually resulted in a new job title for me as well. Which is, yeah, I'm the 547 demand coordinator, keeps

us running our asses off in the back. He's the supply coordinator. We brewed it again yesterday. We brewed it like two weeks before that. So we're, we're chasing our tail back there as, as the quote supply coordinator.

And you've seen this in distribution too.

Yeah, we're seeing that. And, and we've, we've had, we had to increase prices a little bit and concern that the sales would drop and they went up. So we're going to roll with it. We're going to see where this goes.

This is something you can't do for every beer. You can only do this for, I think, for a set number of things and probably a very small number, maybe one.

As in a day for the beer? No, I mean,

like, not in a day for the beer. You could do more of those, but like for having a bell, like I think you guys try to do a different bell and that just, well, we joke about it a little, but yeah, you're right. That you can, so here's my, here's my question. Let's say some point in the future, several years from now, you open up another public house. Would that public house have a 547 bell?

I think so, yeah.

Is this something that is, I. A McFleshman's thing now, or is it just something that would be in this facility?

I think it's a 547 thing. I think it's some, in some ways it's separate from McFleshman's. It's a parallel, it's a parallel brand in some ways. In fact, we've been making beers under its label for a while. There's, we have a red IPA, which has a whole story we can talk about another day, but it, we call it stepchild. It's a sister of 547. It's the same likeness on the label. and then we have a new one we just made for people. They want to drive home after three and, it's Toronado actually. So in reference to the, the bar again, it's a true West coast. So where, where this one's a double, this is a true West coast. It's a little drier, a little crisp, but it smells. Anyway, it's fantastic. I'm about to have one in a minute, I think, but that's going to have a label. So it's all, it's, it's going to look like that it's inspired by 547. We're having a whole line of these beers come out. And I think that

was a good idea because. Every time I come in here, Joel tries to, you know, he's a pusher and he tries to get me to order a 547 every single time. Right. And it's not that I don't like 547. Yeah. But it's a really high alcohol content. Yeah. And, you know, you can maybe, I can maybe have one of those. Yeah. You know, two, forget it. Yeah. Especially if I have to go home and do work or something. So having an alternative like that I thought was great.

Yep.

Is it possible? Yep. And if possible, would you consider a non alcoholic version of it?

100%. The, the non alcoholic game is heating up and we've been working on it for probably four or five years behind the scenes. I think we're, we're doing a good job with developing our own IP, our own NAs. But the answer is yes. And we got some names in mind. Oh, there you go. There you go. Yeah. We got ideas for a family pack, an IPA pack. It's going to involve stepchild and we have other names that will riff on that. So yes, in a, yeah, in a IPA that's, that's inspired by West Coast style would be a logical progression.

Can I, can I go to naming for a second?

Yeah.

Cause I don't, and I don't know if you talked about this earlier, but the amount of thought and creative energy that goes into the naming of beers here in particular, and I I've never worked in the, in the beer industry other than here. but is astonishing. Yeah. You and I probably exchanged. 300 different names for the new Tornado. And we had some fabulous conversations. Gary, you were a part of those, you know, having a couple of the conversations about what a good name for the, for the beer would be. It's both fun and creative. Yeah, it is.

It's stressful because now that's the name. I mean, we have changed names before, but. This one, this one I had a lot of pressure. I don't mean to talk about another beer, but Tornado is a sibling. Whatever a kid's sister of another name of 547. And we knew we had to nail it because we've been asked to make this beer for years. People have been asking for 6 percent West coast for years. And this one's got to land and we got to have the name. We got to go out the gate with this one and we're working on the label now too. So yeah, that's a good side note. We didn't talk about that in the last episode, but it's part of the marketing and branding. Naming is. Exhausting. And it takes a lot of effort if I pull my phone out and show you where I keep all my ideas for names is it will floor you. There might be what I like. And a lot of people don't

even know it when they come in here, but there's a story

behind every behind

every name.

Yeah,

like I had no idea because I didn't live in this community for like 30 years.

Yeah.

The name of pirates code, right? Which is our other flagship.

Yeah.

You know, a bar that was where your beer garden is now that burned down.

Oh yeah. And everyone that lives here did at that time absolutely knows that name and that's, that was chosen for good for that reason.

Well, that's one of the things that makes this place very special. Everything is intentional. The naming, the branding, the artistic license that goes into the labeling, the craftsmanship that goes into the, to the, you know, the brewing of the beer. You, you are. Never satisfied with anything. Never. And you're always, you know, pushing all of those elements, which is one of the reasons why, you know, you're as great as you are.

Let's give Alex Schultz, some credit for the labels. He does all of that. So he's, he's not the, the artist, but he's the guy that brings the artist to the table. He makes it match. He works with an artist that matches. Where we want to go with that, with the feel, look and feel of a label. And then he does all the layout stuff. And that is non trivial that that's an art in all of it in and of itself. He's also a perfectionist, you know, he's got that artist brain and he does so much for us on our, on that side of the equation. For sure. I get people telling me, bring me some more posters at these bars that I deliver beer to because people keep stealing your posters. Like that is such a compliment that tells you how awesome the graphics are, that people want them.

Would you feel the same way about people stealing your beer?

Oh, I mean, if they're just rebuying it from, you mean from me or from them? Yeah,

no, I, no, a lot of your in line, a lot of your, the, the posters I've seen, and they're not actually everywhere here. They're kind of just in your bathrooms.

They're not anywhere. Yeah. Except if I get maybe a couple in there.

They're kind of snarky.

We probably should do a little more with getting them on the wall. Yeah.

All right. Any, any last words on 547? We've devoted an entire episode to just one beer

Well, I'm glad we did. This was a great conversation. And I, and for those of you that are listening, come on in on a Wednesday night. Wednesday night is kind of the unofficial 547.

Yep.

Night and we have a wonderful time and

When I when I sell beer out in the wild, I'm delivering beer all over the place. I will tell people come on the weekend. Of course, that's going to be fun or Mile of Music. But if you really want to experience this tap room, come on a Wednesday night, it absolutely will make the best impression.

All right. Well, that wraps up another episode of Respecting the Beer. Thank you for listening and make sure to subscribe to the show and check out our Facebook group and Patreon page to receive updates about future episodes.