This series deals with themes of violence, loss of life, grief, trauma and mental health. The content may not be suitable for younger listeners.

Kia ora, I'm Mitchell Alexander.

And I'm Alex Mason. Welcome to Season One of Unclassified, a series where we bring you firsthand tales from those who served during New Zealand's 20 year deployment to Afghanistan.

Today, we're joined by Staff Sergeant Tina Grant, to talk about losing a loved one on the frontline, the impact of that loss on whanau back home, and her efforts to ensure greater support is available to families of the fallen.

Staff Sergeant Tina Grant knows the pain caused by war. In 2011, her late husband Special Forces soldier Corporal Douglas Grant died while on an operation to free hostages in the British Council Cultural Centre in Kabul.

In the wake of his death, Tina discovered gaps in the support available to families like hers, which led her to take on a newly created role. In 2012, she became the New Zealand Army's liaison officer for the families of the fallen, the primary point of contact for all Army families who have lost relatives, whilst in the service of the New Zealand Defence Force.

Tina has spent the years since ensuring practical solutions and services are available to help others navigate their way through times of grief loss and trauma. Thank you for joining us today. Tina.

Kia ora. Thank you. Thank you for having me both.

Can you turn your mind back to August 2011 and the moment that you learned that your husband at the time Corporal Douglas Grant had been involved in an incident in Afghanistan, can you talk us through what happened?

Sure. So it's kind of one of those stories that you might see in the movies, really, it's got that knock on the door, 'your husband's been killed' type thing. Initially, I got a phone call. And it was late Friday night. I'd just finished baking. The children were in bed. The children were having their farewell on the Saturday because we were heading up north, Douglas and I had just bought a house. We were in the process of going through the purchasing and selling of the house that we were in and we were moving up to Auckland in a week's time. So the children were having their farewell at the pools on the Saturday. So I was baking for that. My mum was there, she was sleeping in the sleep out. I got a phone call. Weird. Eleven o'clock at night on Friday, picked it up expecting to hear Douglas because that's the kind of thing he used to do. He would call at weird and wonderful times, especially when the children were having a bath, when it was dinnertime. So I thought straightaway, that was him. However, I picked the phone up and it was a random number, which isn't abnormal for him being overseas. And I answered it. I said 'Hey, babe', and the voice came back 'Hi, Tina. Are you home? It's Ryan'. And I was like, weird. 'What? Of course I'm home. Where are you? What are you? What are you talking about?' And he said, 'I'm sitting at the bottom of your driveway with Padre, can we please come in?' And I was like, 'Sure. And I went to the front door phone in hand, still by my ear and saw them both walking up the driveway. My heart started racing, I thought, what's going on? Weird and wonderful. Like I said, feel like I'm in a movie. And they came to the door. Can we come in? Yes, I stood at the front door. And Ryan said, "Douglas has been killed". And I was just like, blank. So what? And then it was, kind of hit me. I think I went to sit down. Because I remember sitting on the couch. And then I started rocking like a crazy woman going "Why me? What's going to happen now? How did this happen?" All of these questions. I can only remember my voice. I can't remember anybody else's voices. And then I recall Ryan saying to me, we need to tell everybody before the media get hold of this. And I, something happened, a switch went on. I became a military sergeant. And I said, right, this is what we need to do. So I sat there, got a piece of paper, pen and started writing down who we needed to contact before the news was revealed to the public that he had been killed. I then thought I need to go and wake up my Mum so she can help me so I went out to the sleepout, knocked on the door, mum you need to come and she came in, very bemused as to what was happening. And I told her, she collapsed. And then it was just like, holy hecker. What do we do next? I rung my boss, Trish, she came out to the house, and we started rolling with processes in regards to who we needed to notify. They informed me that there would be a lot of VIPs at the house the next day, I made the decision that the children were going to continue with their farewell and that I didn't want them to know, because I didn't want them confused as to why all these people were going to be at our house. I was advised that the Prime Minister, the Minister of Defence, all of those types of people would be there. So it will be too much for my children. So my mum and my brother in law went off the next morning with the children and then I dealt with all of the VIPs. And it just felt extremely surreal. It was like I was in a dream. It hadn't really cut through me, I don't think at that stage. I think I'd move through the shock part. And it was just like, oh, yeah, okay, I've got to do this now. I've got to make sure everything's sorted. And make sure that, you know, everyone's looked after. So I started organising. That was how it started. That's how my journey began.

Douglas obviously served with Special Forces, the SAS. This was not the first time he'd been in a dangerous situation. What had it been like for you at home in New Zealand, during the times that he was on deployments?

Yeah. Funny you should ask. It's that analogy of, it's never going to happen to me. I remember one exercise that he went on to think it was Boganville, I'm not sure. And I got a phone call to say he's been injured. And that was it. And I said, can you tell me more? No, we can't tell you what's going on. I was like, that's really random. But I did find out later on, he was okay. But I always thought, it's not going to happen to us. And I remember just as Douglas left, the morning before he left to go to Auckland to deploy to Afghanistan. I was hugging him in the hallway. And I looked at him and I brushed his cheek and I said, "Don't do anything stupid". And he said, he goes, "No, I got this". And I said, "Whatever you do, don't do a Willy Apiata. And he kind of laughed, and he said, no chance of that. And then he sort of walked out. So I remember those really, quite fondly, because you just don't think that they're not coming home. 13th of December, he was supposed to come home. So it's like as a military wife, the relationship, the partnership sort of stops there, because they go off and do their thing. And you've got to do everything else back at home. So obviously, our children were five, and seven. So I had to look after our children. And like I said, we had to buy a house and we were selling a house. And so life still goes on, you have to just get through it. That's the life I married into. You know, so I knew he was an SAS soldier when we married. And I was expecting, you know, deployments and one thing or another, and being a soldier myself, it wasn't anything new that we were always out and about and early stages in our relationship. I remember, I would be deploying, he would be coming in and we'd meet that night for cuddles. And then, you know, we'd swap he would go I would stay or vice versa. So that was how our relationship was before we started a family. So there was nothing new to you know, him deploying. So that's what I expected, I suppose. But again, you never, ever expect them not to come home.

So you hadn't had to try and steel yourself for that moment, because you just didn't expect it to happen?

No. When you're a young soldier, you know, we were invincible when we were younger. We've got this, we're fit. We're healthy. We're trained. We're good at what we do. It's not going to happen to us mentality. I suppose.

Your two children being at that very young age and primary school. You've talked to us about how you wanted them to carry on with their farewell and I guess be a little bit insulated from what was going on. How did you break the news to them and when did you do that?

That was horrid. So the children went out and had their amazing day, all the baking that I'd made. They came home about three o'clock that afternoon, there were cars all up and down the street. At that stage, we had military police out the front making people drive on because they were blocking up the road. And we were in Tokomaru so it wasn't exactly a busy place. So the children had to walk through all of that. And they, their words were, they saw these people and they didn't know what was going on. And they saw it in the lounge room window, everyone's sitting inside. And I sort of came out, greeted them on the patio and took them out to the sleep out, sat them down on the couch. And I just said to them, I've got some news about your dad. And they were both very confused. And they sort of "why are these people here?" And I said "because because your dad died rescuing people". And initially, they sort of didn't quite get it. Jaden started, my son started to cry, but not like, it was just tears. I didn't really know what to expect from either of them. Jemma - blank face, not a single word. As soon as I was, you know, okay, what are we going to do? And how are we going to work through this together as a family and you know, I love you and daddy loves you. Once we kind of finish those conversations, Jaden was like, okay, okay, I'm ready to go. So yep. And he sort of went back to his room and Jemma went back to her room, she sat on the floor. And she just looked into space, no tears, no emotion. And so I was concerned about her, how she received that. Jaden was five, he went back into his room and played with his trains and, you know, one thing or another, so they were confused about the initial coming home, the environment, but I knew that the journey was going to be long for Jemma. Because she had no tears. She just had no emotion, and I was worried about her. From then on out pretty much. And to this day, Jaden says things like, I don't remember Mum, I can't remember. I need people to tell me stories about Dad. But Jemma has memories of her Dad. So that's the difference between the two, I suppose.

New Zealand and other Commonwealth nations was once a country where many families lived with the grief of having lost a loved one and war. It still happens, but it's not as common. And I guess over the generations, we've maybe lost that public and institutional understanding of how to respond when that happens. How prepared was the New Zealand Defence Force to support you in this moment?

Initially, they were absolutely amazing. They were just faultless. Ryan was the most amazing support person. I had Padre there, my boss was there. She walked along side of me through the whole journey, the grief side of things, Defence just wrapped around me. And then it got to a stage where once the funeral was done, and we had three services, so there was a lot of admin going on behind the scenes. The day that I picked up his ashes was, how I feel, the support stopped. People didn't know what to do, what to say how to act around me. And we were in the process, like I said, of purchasing a house in another city. So a week after the funeral, the packers came in, packed up the house and the children and I and mum drove to Auckland. So I left my support crew, support people, all of those people that were helping me through those initial stages, I left them behind. And I suppose it was my own fault for leaving that support group. But Douglas and I'd made a plan. And we had bought this house and we had a plan in regards to where we wanted our children to grow up and where they were going to live. So I wanted to fulfil his wishes. And I wanted to go to you know, like it was a new adventure for us up in Clarks Beach. So once I got to my new job, I pretty much got stuck in still very, like doing half days, crying through the day. The children were only doing half days at school. I was very mindful of their journey. And then it's sort of like what happened with Leon Smith. Leon was killed in September, and I was at work and I was driving past the barracks where the family was so Leon Smith was killed. He was the first soldier on site when Douglas was shot, and he did CPR and tried to revive him. So I felt this connection with his family. And I felt that I owed it to them to support them because their son supported my husband in his dying moments. So I pulled into the barracks and I just said, Hello, this is who I am. And this is my relationship to your son. And straightaway, we had a rapport. And I ended up staying there for a couple of hours just talking, and hashing and rehashing stories about how Douglas and Leon were best buddies and what they'd done. And they were both in mountain troop and all that kind of stuff. So for them, and for me, it was really good to talk about our boys again, albeit they weren't with us anymore. And that was, I suppose, the actual moment where I felt we've got a gap in our system, and it needs to be fixed. And then obviously, later on, we had our fallen soldiers in the Baghak battle. So I felt that they would be going through very similar journey as I had and the Smith whanau. So that's when I decided that something needed to be done.

So on that support that you mentioned, could you specifically sort of explain what that you felt that you most needed at that time that you didn't receive from the New Zealand Defence Force to help you and your family and you struggled to find? So it was being around like minded people, I didn't know that at the time. But on reflection, and after, you know, studying about grief, and loss, I realised that being around people that understood my journey was comforting. It took a long time for me to get there. I remember one particular time that I was in Perth, and I was meeting with two SAS widows, and their husbands had died about the same time. And we were sitting down just strangers and then they were saying things about how they felt. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, that's how I felt. And we all felt alienated. And then when we got together, it was just like, a huge relief. Like, you know, how I feel, I wasn't going crazy. You know, like, I couldn't share my emotions or my feelings or experiences with anyone, because no one had been there, you know? So these two SAS wives, and again, their husbands SAS, so there was a lot of secrecy, I suppose around how they died. And it wasn't public, I suppose. Even to them. And, you know, to me at that stage, I still didn't know a lot of stuff either. However, what I established was, it made me feel better being around people that knew that they'd lost a soldier. Because soldiers are different. They're not just like your everyday civilian. Yes, they're dads, they're husbands, they're sons, but they're soldiers. And it's a different environment that we work in. It's camaraderie, it's about looking after your left and your right of arc, it's making sure that they get home after a night on the gas, or whatever it may be. It's just a connection that we have as soldiers. So that gets passed on to the families. And the families feel comfort around similar, like minded people in those other families of fallen soldiers. And that's when I started bringing them together.

And so how did you go about bringing them together and creating the role that you ended up taking up?

So I researched other countries to see what they were doing with their families. I knew that I needed to get them together how I was going to do that, I wasn't sure. I engaged with Australia - Legacy - and I engaged with the United States - Taps - which are Tragedy Assistance Programme for Survivors. And Bonnie Carroll is the founder. She's also a widow, lost her husband. And I was at an event where she was there. So we sat and we talked, the most powerful thing for her was bringing people together how they did it was through meetings, camps, coffee groups, that type of thing. In America, there's a heck of a lot more widows obviously, than we have here, which is, you know, I'm blessed that that's the case. So trying to get the handful of people that we had together was a bit of a mission. How we about how I ended up doing it, we had no funding, either because Defence, Army doesn't pay or fund our civilian families. So once your soldier has passed, then funding ceases. So getting those families along to an event, I had to find a way to finance that. So I set up a trust, Families of the Fallen Charitable Trust, to enable our families to come together and meet and greet, share, cry, talk about how the grief journey worked for them. What did work, what didn't work. So, Army were fabulous about using resources that we currently have. So Army leave centres for example, we started using those as venues, and using military vehicles, white vehicles, to transport our people, and the Trust would go and help with the funding petrol, fuel vouchers, meals, that type of stuff, because a lot of our families lower socio economic or disadvantaged because they can't, because the they can't come because they're from further away than where the event would be held. So to enable them to come and knowing full well how it will help them. That's why I set the trust up. That's why I fund certain things the Army doesn't fund so we work collectively together. Army have been great in that respect. They've really listened. I wouldn't be where I am today if they didn't listen to my waahs, they just helped me move forward with my grieving as well, because I was helping other people. So it was kind of twofold. They were helping me and I was helping others and helping them.

And I understand you went right to the top to get your new role, your efforts formalised as the New Zealand Army's liaison officer for Families of the Fallen, you wrote to the Chief of Defence Forces there, right?

I did. Like I say I was I felt like a whinging widow, because I didn't feel I was getting the support that was required. And I felt that Army had sent my husband away. I didn't feel in any way that they killed him, because that's not how it was, but I felt they sent him away, so it's their responsibility to look after the aftermath, which was us. So like I say, albeit they were fabulous at the beginning, but they just didn't know that was a gap. We hadn't experienced this before. And because I'm a vocal person, because I'm still serving, I got into conversations. Judith Collins is the MP for Papakura. She would come in and meet and greet with the SAS boys in camp in Papakura. She was the MP, it was part of her electorate, so there was nothing untoward in regards to why she was there. She was just checking in, we got talking, and she just said, share your story. Tell someone and I said who's gonna listen to a whinging widow like me. And she said, I will. And so she said, put it on paper. We'll write a minute. And we'll push it up through the chain. And that's what happened. So I'm so grateful for her helping me get where I am today. Jemma has just written a book during COVID. She wrote a children's picture book. And Judith was kind enough to write the foreword. So we still have relations with her. She's a great lady.

What are you most proud of in relation to what you've achieved in this role?

I suppose creating something out of nothing. When I say nothing, there was no policy. It was something absolutely completely new to everyone, to Government, to the Army. But they listened. They listened to me, which to me, that was a huge achievement. And I've made something of it as well. There's still work to be done within the role. And can I say, fortunately, we haven't had any deaths killed in action since 2012. So my work has slowed down a little bit. We're very blessed that we haven't lost any other soldiers in any combat roles. However, we still lose soldiers to motor vehicle accidents, suicide, illness, for example. So albeit we're not at war, or in a conflict, currently, our people still die. So the supports need to still be in place for those families, because I believe any death is just as tragic as the one before and it doesn't matter how you die. You grieve, we all grieve the same. So those support things need to be in place. And I believe that I've done that.

And how does it feel for you personally, to be able to help these families?

it's really rewarding, because I know how they are feeling how they felt, and I can see them now, they've moved through that grief journey and doing it on their own now. I was saying earlier that I was doing my homework with my, sorry, I was helping my son with his homework last night. And I looked up and I saw Douglas' photo on the wall, and you know, it still hits you, it's still there. And it's, it's still really emotional. But then I just need to look at where I am and what I've done and that kind of makes me feel like I've done something with that grief. I've turned it into something positive. I've given hope to people to show them that there is you know, you can get through this journey. And I think my family see that because they do disengage eventually, and they find their own support or just learn to live with the loss.

As you've said, you, you're someone who has been through what a number of these families have been going through. I imagine your work could be triggering at times for yourself. How do you deal with that personally?

Yeah. So I'm very fortunate to have met a new love. And he is extremely supportive. He listens to all my stories. I think now, it's easier for me than it was, I didn't have anyone for quite some time so I really struggled with that. But meeting and greeting with like minded people, like I said, you know, I looked forward to the weekends away with the families, we could sit and talk and share how we were all feeling or what worked for us. So I think I'm very lucky now. But you never ever get over that loss.

Everyone experiences grief in their own individual way. But have you noticed a common thread amongst the families of the fallen?

No, I don't think there's an actual common thread, there's a pocket where there's anger and that's part of the grief journey. And there's a part where they do initially blame the service for the loss of the loved one. But eventually, that does, you know, once I get in there and let them talk and, you know, try and help them through that grief journey or, for example, one of our soldiers drowned. And the family were really angry at the the Army. And I said, How can we help change that? And they said, we just want to know that it's not going to happen again. And I said, right, okay. So their concerns went through the chain of command, there was an investigation, everything and anything that came out of their investigation, I passed on to the family, and the family were relieved that something was being done, and that the incident wouldn't happen again. So I suppose I'm the conduit as well, between the Army and the families. And I can feed both ways, and smooth the waters, you could say if there's some animosity with the family.

You've mentioned that while these people are fathers, brothers, sons, they're also soldiers. And these are military families we're talking about which are different to other families that aren't involved in service. When people lose a loved one in service, while they're in the course of duty in the military, what ongoing impact does that have on their lives, on that family that had been a military family, and maybe they still are, like yourself, have been serving, or maybe they have lost that tie. But is there something about the loss of a service person that has a particular ongoing impact to their family?

I think having that continued connection, how I say it to my families is it's like an invisible umbilical cord. And that's the link that the family has to the military. And when our soldier dies, that's cut. And I think the families, they feel abandoned, they've lost that connection. So that's why I try and bring them together and make them feel that they're still part of us. We have memorials throughout our camps, and our fallen soldiers names are on those memorials. So I bring our families in, just to let them know that their soldier's not forgotten. No matter how they died, they are not forgotten. They're part of an organisation that remembers. And that gives them that continued connection with the service. And they know the families know that they can come and visit those memorials at any time. So yeah, it keeps that relationship going.

In 2021, 10 years after Douglas died, Kabul fell to Taliban control. How did you feel watching that unfold?

I had mixed emotions. I was listening to the media and people were saying, what a waste. I don't believe it was a waste. I think we as a small country made a huge impact to those people. Douglas was always the kind of person who would fight for the underdog. And I too said to him, why are you going? And he said, because I want the children and the women to have what we have here in New Zealand and I want to be part of that. So I was like, okay, yep. And he was, you know, like, our people were, they made change. And I'm really proud of what they did. So when people say what a waste, I disagree. I was saddened that we did come home because everything that we'd built, just bricks and mortar, I suppose, was going to probably be destroyed. I don't know, there were memorials over there that, you know, I was very mindful and sort of said to the powers that be in military, what's going to happen to them, and they were brought home. So I was quite relieved with that, that our boys and girls, memorials were brought home and placed in a place of remembrance.

I guess was that quite difficult for you then, and other whanau of other personnel who died in Afghanistan, seeing what was going on with the Taliban?

I can really only speak about me. Yes, I suppose. But I'm also a soldier. And you're always going to get the bad eggs, no matter where you go in any kind of work environment, but it did upset me to see what they were doing. Because, you know, we had tried to change things for the local people so it was a little bit disturbing, but there was nothing I could personally do about it. What I wanted to do was to go out there on the in the public media and say, you know, correct those people to say, what a waste of life, what a waste of time, and it was like, No, it wasn't you don't you're not seeing the big picture. But I did not do that. Because I could see that people have pretty strong opinions. So yeah, I just kept it to myself, which was really hard.

Is that what gets you through that sadness about seeing what's happened in Afghanistan now, is focusing on the hope that these people gave to those they were working amongst over there?

I think so. I mean, it's a never ending, sad story. Really. I mean, look at Ukraine, they're going through something similar. There's always going to be those bad eggs out there. But I can I honestly just say that as long as you have hope, as long as you turn the negative into a positive, it's worth doing what we do. It makes change.

Tina, thank you very much for your time today. We really appreciate it. We're going to end with one final reflection. What's one thing that you think the New Zealand public should know about military service and sacrifice?

This should come easy, but it's... I think our public need to know that we are a unique group in our society, we should be remembered for what we currently do. And for what we've done, we do make a change, and it is for the positive. So you know when Anzac Day comes around, really do mean lest we forget. Because we should never forget.

This is the final episode of season one of Unclassified. We'd like to thank everyone who has shared their personal stories with us.

We acknowledge that these are only a snapshot of the experience of the 1000s who served on behalf of New Zealand in Afghanistan, and of their loved ones at home. We want to thank all those who serve and the wider defence community.

This podcast is a production of the New Zealand Defence Force Defence Public Affairs team. We hope to bring you more stories in this format, and welcome any feedback you have on the series. contact us via email podcast@nzdf.mil.nz

If you need to talk to someone, you'll find details for support services in the show notes. Haere ra.