#3 Ben and Macbeth

[00:00:00] hi there, and a very warm welcome to season 5 episode 40 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:05] Ben: I don't know about you Ross, I've yet to murder the King of Scotland. Um, that's, that's not yet been crossed off my list of, you know, my, my bucket list of things to do in my life. I also haven't arranged to have, my best friend, um, killed by, killed by hired assassins.

[00:00:23] but, if you start to map the process out on the matrix. And you go, you know, we have the, this, this language of functional equivalence that it, that I think is a really interesting and useful concept that I've not done the same behaviors. I've not done behaviors that are even comparable in terms of the form of the behaviors. But have I done things that are functionally equivalent? Have I tried to deal with my pain and my fear? In functionally equivalent ways and got myself stuck in loops through a similar process. And that's where I go, oh yeah, I have, in terms of psychological processes, I've been in the Macbeth loop.

[00:01:08] PeeSoopers, here's the final part of my chat with Dr. Ben Askew. He's an acting teacher, writer, and director. In this episode, you'll hear us talk about the Shakespeare play, Macbeth, with a particular focus on Lady Macbeth and her husband.

[00:01:23] We explore the characters through the lens of Act and the Act Matrix and find both depth and humanity. You'll also hear what Ben means when he says we're all playing on the same board, the pitfalls when we treat someone as a character, and gender differences at work, again related to Lady Macbeth. now for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, [00:02:00] welcome, we are an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible and fun.

[00:02:08] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioural science.

[00:02:15] Let's just take a scoot over to the news desk. First of all, I'd like to tell you about the icon photo for this episode. It's a photo of actor Jessica Kinsey in a workshop with Ben, exploring the character of Lady Macbeth with masks. And I just love the intensity of Jessica's expression.

[00:02:32] You'll find Jessica's Instagram in the show notes.

[00:02:35] and let's turn to my ACT in the Workplace Train the Trainer Program, in partnership with Contextual Consulting. I developed this program with Dr. Paul Flaxman And you'll find the link in the show notes to all the details. It's coming up soon in April and May this year.

[00:02:49] I've trained hundreds of adults using this approach and also hundreds of trainers too. And thanks to Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting, there's a code for the course that gives you a 20 percent discount.

[00:03:00] And that code is Peasoup20.

[00:03:03] Peasoup as I'm recording this intro on the road. I'm in Dublin, in the Hyatt centric The Liberties. And it's jolly nice. I'll be working at the Guinness Storehouse for the next couple of days. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part 3 of my chat with Ben Askew.

[00:03:26] Ross: But let's just dive into Macbeth and having a look at that through the lens of Act and the Act Matrix.

[00:03:33] Ben: Well, yeah, this is a, a play. We've had a little chat about it, previously. It's a play I'm doing a lot of thinking about. I mean, it's partly a play I've always done a lot of thinking about. But, also with, A couple of the actors from the working action group. We've been looking for opportunities where we're just looking at the moment for when we can do our next, um, bit of work around it.

[00:03:54] but we've been looking at this play and these characters, looking at Lady Macbeth in particular and at the relationship [00:04:00] she has with her, with her husband. Trying to unpick it from an act's point of view or think about it and see what, what things we could develop. And. apart from just loving the, the play, always have done, probably always will, but one of the things that was a point of interest for me, for me in bringing Act to it, is about how we judge those characters.

[00:04:24] And particularly, Lady Macbeth, I think. Some of the Broad descriptions that get attached to how we think of these characters, particularly where there's a lot that gets said about the play. Understandably, when words like evil get used and where there's a lot of talk about ambition and power and all of these things that are clearly important and there in the play.

[00:04:45] And in terms of the behaviors that we see from these characters. you know, they, they kill people and they do, things that we, that we certainly do not approve of and would hope not to replicate ourselves, I imagine in the vast majority of cases. But what always seems, um, like a problem for me, I mean, I think it's a problem from an actor's point of view in general, when we get into. judging the character, whoever it may be, moving out of act for, for a second, but, but it's because it's, um, A broader concept in terms of, you know, this, uh, this idea of unconditional positive regard that gets talked about in kind of helping relationships.

[00:05:25] Of going, you know, there, there might be lots of behaviours here that, that, uh, not behaviours that you you condone, but you, but if you get into the position where, If you're trying to help someone in that kind of relationship where you are just judging the person and labeling them as a bad, as a bad person, then the helping relationship can't can't work that you have to maintain.

[00:05:43] a respect for that person in front of you as a human being, regardless of, of what they've done. Right. And I think there's a similar responsibility as a, as an actor. approaching a character of going, if you shut down to the fact that this is a human [00:06:00] being and just sort of make, harsh judgements, label them as evil, kind of deny their humanity in some way, then I think it was impossible to do your job, your job of interpreting that person, as an actor. And so, so I was fascinated with, with the Macbeths and with, with lady Macbeth about going my longstanding instinct, and feeling that there is a lot more to say and to see than some of the stuff that's about evil and ambition that gets said. And what an act perspective could could bring to that on what it brings to, to , these kind of texts and these ideas we have about tragedy.

[00:06:36] And I think what emerges for me, not some sort of definite truth about the play and the characters, because one of the joys of these things is that, that it's interpretation, right? And that, that there's, rich and open to interpretation these, these plays.

[00:06:50] That's part of the reason that we go back to them so, so much, but of thinking or realizing, seeing. What's emerging in that play as an unworkable response to human suffering that lady Macbeth and Macbeth for all the, horrible things about the things they actually do, the behaviors that they, do in the world, that they are. trying to respond to stuff that is difficult for, for them.

[00:07:19] There is stuff particularly I think about, being able to be present and in the moment in different ways for both of those characters. that is very, very hard. there is a lot that is painful about being here now. And there is an, there are attempts to problem solve that, to get away from that.

[00:07:39] I think that, for both of those characters, they have this idea in different ways that if they can just get to the point where they've done it, where things are done, where there is a finality where I can stand and be safe and secure and have my feet on the ground and [00:08:00] know that I'm okay. And they both have different versions of how they think they're going to achieve that at different points in the play, but that seems to me to be a common factor. This idea that if, and you see Macbeth getting into, again, into this loop of going, If I just do the next thing, that will be the end of it.

[00:08:17] That will be the end. I will be finished. You know, if I just go through, do the next action, As you know, he goes through with the, the, murder of Duncan spoilers For anyone that's not, that's not seen the play yet, you know, he kills the King of Scotland and thinks that that's gonna take him somewhere and then ends up in this place where actually he feels full of fear and full of insecurity, and that he's in incredible danger and that he has to kill again and has to kill his best friend.

[00:08:44] Banquo, in order to get to this place where I can be, where I can be safe. and what's really interesting, there's so much to say about this play from an act point of view. I think it's, it's tricky without getting into, um, lots of with things in the text. but again, I think what emerges very clearly when you, when you, for me at least, when I look at it through an act.

[00:09:08] Lens is about watching how much about tragedy can be thought about in terms of the way that people get stuck in these loops of trying to stop, pain, trying to get away from their suffering in a situation and coming up with, as I say, these unworkable, But humanly understandable attempts to solve a problem.

[00:09:36] And that these loops go on and on and on until they just spiral so far beyond our control. That, in tragedy, they destroy us. And I think actually, which I know we talk about Macbeth specifically, but there's so much I think As you start to look from an act point of view in the big stories that we tell[00:10:00] where you have tragic forms of stories where you, this stuckness finds no solution, eats itself.

[00:10:07] And in a sense, a lot of, a lot of comedy and romance and all of these kind of things that also start, start from the, from a lot of. Inflexible stuck processes and what that hero's quest or the the blossoming of this love that people find in the story or whatever it might be, is about finding that reconnection to values, finding a flexible towards move that is what allows our happy endings to emerge in those stories.

[00:10:36] But tragedy is so much about. these loops and how they, how they destroy us. I think what one of the things on the Lady Macbeth question that we explored in a relatively recent workshop, was we were thinking about roles and characteristics.

[00:10:54] so in acting terms, we, and as we do in life, you know, we lay, we label characters, we label people, we characteristics, Brice of King. They're like this, they're like that, that he's an intellectual. She's a, you know, she, she's funny. She's this, she's whatever, whatever labels we put to, to who, who people are on what, what one of the things that I think is brilliant from a.

[00:11:17] Act in a functional, contextualist sort of point of view, right, is to, is to look at what is the function of that characteristic. What's the function? In the sense of going rather than seeing this as kind of some sort of essential, inbuilt, inherent thing about this person. It's clearly an important thing that goes on in their life, right?

[00:11:38] But, but it serves a function in a context. If people behave in a certain way. And again, coming to something like Lady Macbeth and people might say, Well, she's, she's brutal and she's harsh and she's this and she's that and going, Okay, maybe she is. Can we look at in what context do those behaviors appear? And what function [00:12:00] might those behaviors be serving for her when they appear? And again, I think it's this, this really. fascinating thing, a very humanizing thing where you go, Oh, she's not brutal because she's just inherently brutal and that because it's just like it runs through her like a stick of, like through a stick of Blackpool rock.

[00:12:21] She's brutal because she is trying to deal with something. And we can then say maybe that's a, that's Not a very, you know, maybe that doesn't work so well for her, in terms of what emerges, but we humanize that process rather than dehumanizing it. and we, try to explore this using, um, using masks and physicalizing it in this workshop, which was a really fascinating process to go through.

[00:12:44] It was fun because, you know, I can be a little bit heady with things and I know for, for. I have been working with a wonderful actor, Jess, on Lady Macbeth, who's been part of the Working Action Group for a long time. and it meant there's parts of that process, she was painting masks with different designs of these different versions of Lady Macbeth.

[00:13:03] these different roles that she takes on, and so that we could think about. Functionally, how is it working for her to take on that role? What is she moving towards or away from as she exhibits this set of characteristics, these behaviours? And how do we draw it back to something that is human and relatable? And where we go, I don't know about you Ross, I've yet to murder the King of Scotland. Um, that's, that's not yet been crossed off my list of, you know, my, my bucket list of things to do in my life. I also haven't arranged to have, my best friend, um, killed by, killed by hired assassins.

[00:13:43] but, if you start to map the process out on the matrix. And you go, you know, we have the, this, this language of functional equivalence that it, that I think is a really interesting and useful concept that I've not done the same behaviors. I've not done behaviors that are even comparable in [00:14:00] terms of the form of the behaviors. But have I done things that are functionally equivalent? Have I tried to deal with my pain and my fear? In functionally equivalent ways and got myself stuck in loops through a similar process. And that's where I go, oh yeah, I have, in terms of psychological processes, I've been in the Macbeth loop. Even if my behaviors have never looked like any of the behaviors you would see from her Macbeth.

[00:14:34] And then the play for me ceases to be, if it ever was. Something about those evil people over there and starts being about the very human processes that we all go through and how we all get stuck in unworkable solutions and responses to our own suffering. and that to me is a really exciting thing to be exploring.

[00:15:00] Mm

[00:15:01] Ross: And blimey, thank you for just taking us on that brief tour of the Macbeths, because this is only one of the reasons why I think what you do is so valuable and applicable to human life today. Because I have. I have a, a vision of Lady Macbeth that she's almost used as a, a characterization in our language today as someone who's a bit evil, a power behind the throne, manipulative, bit of a bitch

[00:15:32] Ben: yeah, yeah.

[00:15:32] yeah.

[00:15:34] Ross: And it could almost be shorthand to represent that type of character, which I think transposes to the workplace in the different characterizations we have between gender in the

[00:15:43] Ben: yeah, yeah, definitely.

[00:15:45] Ross: A man can be banging his fist on the table, raising his voice, and people will consider him to be impassioned and visionary.

[00:15:54] If a woman is doing the same, people will think, oh, what's up with her? [00:16:00] She's got her knickers in a twist, or, in the extreme, is it her time of the month?

[00:16:05] Ben: Right.

[00:16:06] Ross: Ascribing characteristics like that to, what's up with this ball breaking bitch?

[00:16:12] Ben: Mm hmm.

[00:16:13] Ross: And at the same time as that, we're dehumanizing people in the workplace, I

[00:16:17] think.

[00:16:18] Ben: Absolutely. And I think it's why that, it's so important to me in the way that we approach all of this idea of actually coming at everything from a human empathic sort of starting point. but I think it's one of these. These, these things, that click that, that, that clicked and is still in the process of clicking, I think about function and character and function and characteristics, because I think I've, I'm sort of on the, the cusp of, of sort, I think this is, this is really, uh, important as an idea for, for me in terms of what I want to do for theater.

[00:16:52] But I think, as you say, with a much broad, with, with potentially a much broader application of. A way of thinking that always asks that question about what's the, what's the function? What is this serving for, for someone? as you say, that people behave in ways, whether we like them or don't, don't like them, but they behave in those ways because that's just how they are. And actually going, no, they're, they're They're doing something. They're responding to some need in them.

[00:17:16] If they're dealing with a part of what's going on in the matrix for

[00:17:19] them. and maybe that's in a way that, that it, that is workable. Maybe it's in a way that's, that's not workable.

[00:17:25] That's the board

[00:17:25] Ben: But one of the things I, I love again with this kind of thing of, judgment and the, the matrix.

[00:17:32] it's the idea that, that's, that's the board. We are all playing on that board. There is no special evil person board. There is no special someone we don't like board. There is no special boy's board versus a girl's board. There is is stuff that is important to people. And there is stuff that is showing up that is difficult.

[00:17:56] For people and people are behaving in response [00:18:00] to trying to manage those things and that's it from that perspective, there's not another special compartment

[00:18:09] of evil or wrong. There is people dealing with that stuff. and that's what we see in drama and that's what we see in scene in life.

[00:18:17] And I think if, if, kicking the matrix around in a, whether it's in a workplace or rehearsal room, wherever it is, even if that's the only thing that comes out of it, a bit of appreciation for the fact that we're all responding to the stuff that's showing up for us in that diagram, then I think that is pretty valuable in and of itself.

[00:18:36] Ross: Hmm. Boom. And, you're making me think more about Lady Macbeth, and I am going to go back and read it now, rather than watch a film with indistinct dialogue. But thinking about the context in which she's operating it, she's operating in a world where the men have the power. And the same thing can happen in organizations, and I guess women can seek to emulate the style of the man to make their

[00:19:01] voice heard.

[00:19:01] Hmm. Hmm.

[00:19:07] Ben: one of, uh, Very famous bits of her of her text and she had where she has the speech where she calls on spirits to Unsex me here is what she says to take away I mean to did she calls upon them to take the milk from her breast to take away her her periods to take away with the Things that that's that make her a body a woman's body with the idea that that will take away and stop stop up some of the emotional qualities that are also being associated with what it means to be, to be a woman in that, in that world, so that she can, in her mind, have the, the strength and the resolution to go through with what she thinks needs to be done and what she needs to, to the strength she needs to provide for her husband, she thinks, to get him to go through with what needs to be.[00:20:00]

[00:20:01] and so, yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a huge, conversation into, to, to have in terms of, um, Lady Macbeth and, and gender and how that, you know, how that is, is played out and how the multiple layers of what is, what are the expectations are in that context, in that world that she is in, what her kind of internal sort of ideas about that. And how she makes sense of that and what she thinks, she needs to change about herself and why she thinks she needs to change that. but as you say, I think I can see absolutely where your mind is going in terms of how Lady Macbeth is used as a cultural image we can see the ideas that get attached to Lady Macbeth being played out.

[00:20:46] In the way that people are described and thought about, and characterized within life and certainly within work environments. And I think to use the word characterized, I think that's one of the things about acting and storytelling that is really useful to unpick.

[00:21:02] what does it mean when we treat someone as a character? Or indeed treat a character as a someone. You know, what is this process that we're going in when we're trying to define who someone is? And what's the most useful, fruitful way of doing that artistically, but that absolutely has to parallel with what are we doing when we talk and think about people?

[00:21:24] Real people in the world. how do we acknowledge? People's individuality, what they bring, all of those things, without, labelling and reducing and forcing people into rigid positions or imposing rigidity on them in our ways that we characterise them and indeed characterise ourselves. and it's that balance, isn't it, between how important our Stories about who we are and who other people are are because the because they are they are hugely important to how we make sense of [00:22:00] ourselves to make sense of the world relate to other people but also how they can how they can lead us into those very rigid attachments to self stories and conceptualize cells and these kind of straitjackets Of who we're meant to be and who other people are allowed to be.

[00:22:18] and how we can work through that in a way that's a productive, constructive conversation. Whether it's a conversation had through drama or through a meeting at work.

[00:22:27] Ross: Wow. And one more workplace facet just is screaming at me is the, the continued actions of Macbeth and Lady

[00:22:37] Macbeth. When I do this. When I take this next action, I'm feeling stuck, so when I take this next action, things will be better. And that strikes me that's, that's often behind when companies

[00:22:50] collapse.

[00:22:51] Ben: Right. Yeah.

[00:22:52] Ross: That there's someone who's maybe made an error, and is seeking to rectify that error, and does another thing that's potentially quite risky and

[00:23:01] dangerous, and they keep going because they They've become so narrow in their focus, they think what they're doing is going to fix it in some way, but it's that, it comes back to that function, the functional contextualism.

[00:23:14] Understanding someone at the level of humanity is such a powerful thing to do.

[00:23:20] Ben: Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, absolutely. It's such an important, such an important thing to do. I think, as you, as you say, I can, I can really see how you would, find parallels to that search for finality, to just, to bring this to a, a close, and particularly, you know, say, not in the same behaviors as we see from the Macbeths, perhaps, but, but in terms of, this behavior in itself is not necessarily a great behavior as well, but, but it will sort, it will bring it to an end.

[00:23:47] It will bring sort of, you know, it will close this down and then we, then I can be in a different place and move on with something. With something else, right. and finding that there's never that end point and that you're getting dragged [00:24:00] further and further into, behaviors that actually don't. And that don't reflect your values as an individual or indeed as an organization.

[00:24:10] and as you say, for them, that spirals and I can see absolutely how that would spiral from an organizational point of view as well.

[00:24:19] Ross: Ben, I think I owe it to the P Supers, and I'd love to get you on another time to talk more about

[00:24:26] Macbeth.

[00:24:27] Ben: I'd love to, yeah, your struggle to shut me up about it will be your issue I would think.

[00:24:33] Ross: Not at all. It's just revealing so much to me. And also frozen, of course,

[00:24:38] but peacekeepers watch this space. Yeah. And we haven't even talked about the witches yet,

[00:24:44] Ben: Well, yeah.

[00:24:45] Ross: Dan, thank you so much for taking us on that little journey I love the way we're calling them the Macbeths, like it's kind of George and Mildred. Thank you, thank you so much. I've loved that and, I sense we'll be chatting more about theatre and films, so

[00:25:03] really grateful for

[00:25:04] Ben: I really hope so. Thanks so much, Ross. It's been great to have this chat.

[00:25:14] That's it, Peashoopers. Part 3 of my chat with Ben in the bag. It was such a revelation talking to Ben about Macbeth. And we do have plans for further collaborations, and you will be the first to know about them. Next week, I welcome my friend and fellow psychologist, Kerry Cullen, who is an expert in polyvagal theory, Which has so many points of alignment with act it makes us both a bit giddy.

[00:25:39] Now, we need your help please. You can support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science. So you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

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[00:26:26] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:26:39] Ben: I don't know about you Ross, I've yet to murder the King of Scotland. Um, that's, that's not yet been crossed off my list of, you know, my, my bucket list of things to do in my life. I also haven't arranged to have, my best friend, um, killed by, killed by hired assassins.