Stars on Sports Intro: It's time for Stars on Sports! A podcast-radio show dedicated to sharing stories about our athletic program at Lansing Community College. LCC athletics has a strong tradition. 25 national championship wins! Over 190 All-Americans! 19 MCCAA All Sports trophies! Stars on Sports will introduce you to individuals that have contributed to our program success and give you the backstory on what it takes to develop it. We'll also dive into and break down the topics and issues facing athletic departments across the nation and right here at LCC. This is Stars on Sports!

Hello and welcome to another episode of Stars on Sports. I'm joined by my A team today, our assistant athletic director, Steven Cutter and the best producer in the business business to Daedalian Lowry, except for his apparel. So please cut the video on this podcast. He's not wearing our brand today, so.

Well, you know, I mean, throw me a shirt.

That's all you had to ask. Okay, what size?

He's actually making a note of this large.

Anyway, not to digress, but that is important.

I feel for audio listeners we should at least clarify that I am going green today.

Yes, you are. And that's again a big part of our community. It helped with recruiting that Michigan State is so close to us. It's a great institution, we benefit from it. We have a great partnership academically with them in transferring. So nothing wrong with it. But you'll see gut and I wearing blue every day for our stars. So that is gonna actually be a topic down the line of branding because it's very important to our office, very important to our department, Very important in today's world. Just listen to a great podcast about marketing and branding, dealing with Apple and other Coca Cola and how well they have done with it. But not today, gentlemen. Not today. So let's not go down that path.

Tempting though, isn't it?

But I would like to talk and Dadalion alluded to. We talked a little bit about this topic a couple weeks ago and when we talked about it then it was more controlling the team or the team controlling their behavior. But it's led to observing coaches. You know, when I could come here this week, I try and think of, you know, what did I observe or deal with in the last week. And you know, we're transitioning to winter season and it seems like I've seen my share of over coaching and it's different than control and empowering. You know, you and I talked before the podcast cut. About, you know, almost talking too much, you know, but it's also just like making decisions for student athletes, especially during game situations. And I've seen good coaches do it. I've seen inexperienced coaches do it. And I would like to dive into a little bit of why we think they do it or examples of what you've seen doing it. Hopefully you can pull in some of your bowling league examples with overcoaching. But the other thing that leads me to is why it happens. And these are two other topics that also were prevalent in my last week is standards and leading by example. And I know those are both two big things for us. Cut. We talk a lot about standards. I've learned more about standards. You know, you grow up having goals. I listened to a podcast that said there's a book out there that burn your goals. They limit you where standards are more, you know, guides to help you. So. And I think they all just tie in because they lead into over coaching or, you know, that is the example you said. Or if you have good standards that, you know, it would help minimize the overcoaching. And again, we might eventually dive into these individually on separate podcasts, but those are kind of the three topics that I have observed and dealt with and experienced in the last week. And so I thought I'd bring them here to discuss.

So those are heavy topics. So. Okay, should have brought my drink of Coke with me to get me locked in.

We are not sponsored by anybody on this podcast yet, but we could be.

We could be.

We could be.

So overcoaching, I think, is pretty simple to understand. I believe it's. It's pretty much just excessive input that hinders people's performances or in our realm, athletes performances. And so I think about it like this. If somebody's giving you a presentation and they're extremely knowledgeable about something, and they're using something like PowerPoint or Google Slides or something, and they're trying to get all this information on one slide. It becomes extremely overwhelming because it's, you know, it might be hidden, and they click the button and another thing pops up, and another thing pops up and another thing. And then pretty soon you've got 12 different sentences, paragraphs, pictures, you know, videos on one slide. And when you're trying to pay attention to that or lock in and learn from that, it becomes way too stimulating for the brain. So when they talk about things like PowerPoints, they talk about the importance of if you're going to talk about things that are important, one sentence, one pitcher, you know, that kind of stuff and then move on because that's how you can grasp that. So on the coaching realm it's just excessive input which then hinders athletes performance.

And that's interesting again that contradictory because I think the coaches that do do it and I think we've all been in the position where we've over coached in some capacity, whether it's sport or life or parenting or you know, music. But is we're thinking it's helping performance, that we're guiding their performance, that we're telling them that next step. And the two words that come up that we did talk about with control was structure and robots and you know, and the balance, you know, we don't want robots and we want some structure but we also want to give them the flexibility to adapt and to succeed and to learn and adjust and make decisions for themselves. And I think society with you know the words used for parenting, helicopter, snowplow, you know that that has led to decision making for kids where over coaching plays into that. So Daedalian, did you want to add something?

You know, as both of you kind of had said things that were kind of bopping around in my brain while I was sitting here listening to your profound thoughts, I kind of was applying what you're to actually podcasting what I do here at LCC and the fact that I work with a lot of folks that really have never done this before and very much to what Cut was saying. I had found early on that trying to give somebody new in this role a lot of information at once. Things that I wanted them to focus on wasn't helpful to them and did not help them to grow. But if I gave them one thing to focus on and they were able to get to where I needed them to be there, then I could give them something else to work on afterwards. And it wasn't to say that every time they were going to meet that objective because they weren't. Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. As simple as not saying. And all the time we know we've been on the mic, you know that it's kind of hard not to do that and it's still going to continue on. But I did find that they would improve one way or the other and that's what I wanted. The other thing that came to my brain was robots. You guys mentioned that that was the other thing is I've tried very hard not to explain it to people the way I approach things because I don't want a Bunch of Daedalians on air. I don't need several people who approach being on air the same way as me. I want everybody to have their own personality. And the other thing that came to my brain was the mistakes. Obviously during a game time, you don't want mistakes made if you know, if they happen, you could lose the game. But that's how those people learn too. That's how I learn.

And I think we forget that sometimes. That is how we learn and they are going to happen and it's how we respond to them. Real quickly, I was told this story and I'm not sure the total accuracy of it, but Henry Ford invented the assembly line. And one of the reasons he did is he wanted people's hands, not their minds. He wanted things like automated, consistent. And when you're dealing with people and you're dealing with their thoughts and their words, you know, there's emotions and interactions that go with that. That his goal was I want them from like the neck down and to use their hands and develop a system that limits that interaction in them. And that's what I think of when I think of robots or even some of our teams that act in a robotic nature. And in coaching, I think the team does reflect the. The coach. So I think when you see the team, you see some of the personality or the culture or the thing the coach emphasizes play out into how they perform. So you have to be careful. And that's where again, I think the other two things kind of play into this, about leading by example and having standards, because it all encompasses what that product's going to look like. And it just. You made a point of, you know, these people are very knowledgeable. I mean, it's usually a lot of knowledge that's coming out when they over coach that they're saying too much and they know what's happening, that they're expressing and sharing it. And before the air you talked about it used to be coaching meant talking. And I think to your point, we say because we're uncomfortable with silence and that you need to talk.

Fill that space.

Yeah, that I think that's what over coaching is a little bit, is that knowledge. We've talked about hall of fame coaches that have done it or I think inexperienced coaches or just confident coaches that we've discussed on this podcast too, that feel that is the way to help control the outcome of the game. And to the dallian's point, the game I've always compared it to is the exam. We've done all the preparation before now it's the student's turn to perform and see how it comes out. Do we make adjustments and still coach and adjust? But it just seems like a lot of overcoaching is taking place because, you know, some of it justifies their job. But I think it's because we put so much on the line of what that performance comes. And I even, I would like to know, do you think demonstrative coaches that are hard on officials, is that considered over coaching or is that something different? And we see that in all sports that. Cause part of coaching is defending your student athletes with officials. And I am not an administrator that likes demonstrative coaches on our sideline. But we still need to see energy and passion from a coach.

There's a time and a place, and if you're asking me what I think about it, I think it's. It's not a great thing because as you said, teams really take on their identities of their coaches and organizations, businesses take on their identities of their leaders. And it's really poor modeling. And it's poor modeling because I don't know a whole lot of programs throughout the country that don't talk about how important it is to be selfless or to be kind to people or, you know, that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, the officials, they're people too, and none of us would like to be treated that way. And so it's just, as I said, there's a time and a place, but trying to model that type of behavior, I think if you can keep the perspective of that, they're human beings as well, and just like you, they're going to make mistakes. You're going to get a lot farther with them in building relationships when, just like you, when you make a mistake, most of the time you know about it, right? You know, and, and so that's, that's my philosophy. I'm not saying it's the right philosophy, but that's, that's something that I'd really try to model. And I'm not perfect at it, but I really do try to model that thing by giving respect back to them. And I also feel like on this overcoaching thing, a great cue for it is just small bites. Give things in small bites and don't, don't try to give them the whole plate at one time. As Dadalion mentioned, it's such a better way to learn. And don't be afraid of the failure because once again, as it's been brought up on here, that's Also another way to learn and work your way through these processes.

You know, the funny thing is I don't know where I learned this, I don't know where I picked it up, but the number three always seems to work well. So give somebody three things to focus on and usually they can attain that a lot easier than if you give them like seven or eight different things. Where I'm like, you need improvement here, here, here, here and here.

Yep.

Yeah, three things. I don't know why.

And both good points. And you're right on. And both of you are about one cue at a time. Ask questions of student athletes instead of lecturing them or calling them out. Mistakes happen. And I think officials are under a lot of scrutiny. I never thought of it that way, but I think it is over. Coaching when you're constantly on officials and all coaches get frustrated with officials and so do spectators. And it's very unfortunate because you're right, they are human, they make mistakes. Yet we, we expect them to call a perfect game and that is not going to happen. And the calls at the end of the game seem more important than the call that have led throughout that game. Especially, you know, with technology nowadays. That's a whole nother podcast too about officiating. But you know, another term that I've heard a lot in the last couple weeks is calling up instead of calling out, calling people up, you know, like just building them up instead of lecturing them, calling them out. And I remember Coach Cutter, it was a couple years ago, and the young man, he was an infielder for us, and he did something, made a mistake, either an error or struck out. And I remember you and I talked about it after the game because people wanted to call him out. And you didn't even go talk to him right after that point in the dugout and you made something like that. He knows what he did. That's not the time to address it. We'll address it later because it only make it worse by compounding like, you messed up, you did this and that's a great way to handle this. Is it a one time mistake or is it constant? And if it's constant, that's when you need to step in and try to do some of those cues. But where you're over coaching, you don't differentiate between those two because you're constantly correcting or instructing and teaching. And we should be constructing, teaching and helping them be better. As we've talked about a number of times, that that balance or moderation of doing it. And I'VE seen it from an coaches, coaches that have a lot of knowledge. I think it's been some downfalls of coaches that because it wears on the program and the culture, because there is that lack of flexibility, adaptability. It's constant information, as you've talked about, of too much overload, that if you do it over time that it leads to a lot of stress and I would say lack of success. But I don't have proof on that.

But yeah, that's interesting you bring that up. It was Chris Heggie.

Yep, it was.

He went on to play two years of Division 1 baseball after the Stars. And when you speak about calling people up, I think a great way to maybe segue into that is that if instead of calling somebody out that they've done something wrong, you approach it in a way of saying, you know, this is our standard here. We don't do this here, whatever it might be that they've done wrong. You know, Dadalyn forgot to close the door this morning. So I close the door for him. I say, Dalian, the standard is we have to have this door closed to do podcasts. And I know that you're way better person. We brought you here for a reason. You can handle closing the door. And instead of being like the dillion, why can't. Why can you not close the door? Well, that becomes a personal attack. And once again, that factors into what we're talking about here today with just over coaching. So you start bringing people up. You know, this is our standard here. You need to be here on time, you know, whatever it might be. This is our standard. I know you're better than that and that helps people kind of like, oh yeah, you're right, I'm typically am better. I'll make sure that I'm here on time.

The unfortunate part that coach is not letting you know is that actually my only job, my only role here at the college is to close that door. That's it. That's all I do.

But the analogy is great in the sense of how to handle a mistake where over coaching or correcting. And it's not just negative behavior of overcoaching. Some of it is too much instruction and pass here, throw here. And we see, we hear a lot of it from spectators, like work harder or play harder or pass the ball.

It goes into robots. What the dallian was, you know, same thing with bowling or something else. You've got somebody coaching you as you're taking your steps and right down the lane and everything else. How do you think that's gonna go.

Yeah. And we talked about it off the air, and I think golf is a great example of that. If I stand over my swing way too long, thinking about everything I need to do.

True story.

Where. And I don't do well because I'm thinking, keep my arms straight, go back slow, use my hip. Where, when. When I'm nervous and I don't think about what I'm doing. And just swing is usually you default to your.

You know, now you're kind of getting into the mental performance space. But that's why if you watch professional golfers and they get over. Over that ball and they're not in the right headspace, they'll step back.

Step back. Yeah, I do the same. Yeah, I do do that at bowling, too. Yeah. If I get up there and all of a sudden I figure, Find. Figure out that I'm being distracted by the other bowlers at the other lanes. I'm like, you're not in the right space right now.

So.

Yeah.

Some quick tips that I've researched on helping with overcoaching is asking questions, give one cue, not 20. Coach the habit, the person, the whole person, which is another thing we talk about. It's not just sports, it's life. So coaching the person not attacking the mistake they did wrong because mistakes happen and how coaches respond to that, set the tone and set the temperature, the culture, the standard, the ceiling of your team. Because one of my favorite quotes is people forget what you did or they forget what they say, but they never forget how it made you feel. And something, you know, Maya Angelou. I didn't do it well. But one of my favorite quotes, and I think over coaching lends right into that, of how we make people feel by constantly coaching when to your original premise. We think it's a good thing helping them when I think results show it hinders performance.

And that's also with coaching. If you're going to bring people up and you're going to get them to do more than what they normally would do, there's a piece of it that's hard as well. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. There's some pieces of it where you do need to bring them along a little bit tougher. Definitely that's kind of what gets them to maybe over excel versus what they normally would do.

And growth happens out of your comfort zone. And that's where standards come in. And that's a whole nother topic I think, that we can spend a lot of time on as is, you know, Leading by the example, but I think leading by the example depicts on if you're over coaching or not. And consistency and behavior are all lead into, you know, what is portrayed from that program. Good stuff. Good stuff. We'll keep diving into that topic, and I think it probably doesn't happen as much as I think it does, but it's prevalent when I see it of coaches doing too much. So I know this is what you were waiting for. On our last podcast, we talked about, like, our least favorite Thanksgiving dish.

Yes.

Turkey. When I brought up the word turkey, I thought your facial expression was, like, not a big fan. Is that true?

I'm fine with turkey. I would prefer ham over turkey.

Really?

But I'm fine with turkey.

You have turkey for Thanksgiving?

Yeah, it's a tradition.

Okay. My last 30% of the US is moving away from turkey. I'd prefer turkey over ham myself. I'm not big on either one of them. Pork seems to be an alternate. We talked about deep frying turkey. I have not done that yet. My kids have deep fryers that have done that. I like turkey for Thanksgiving. One day a year. I actually eat it. Like club sandwich. I like club sandwiches. So turkey, the pretty cream thing. But you like turkey.

I don't particularly care for turkey.

No.

Prefer ham over turkey. And I will, no matter what, I will eat turkey at Thanksgiving just because it's, as said, tradition. And I'll agree with you. I do like a good club sandwich. So I'll eat turkey.

Cold cut.

Turkey is different than.

It is a lot different. It is. But I do like turkey sandwiches after Thanksgiving with the leftover turkey. So that's only one. No, we got.

I can't do that, though. Really? No. And I won't.

Mayonnaise. You add, like, mayonnaise or marijuana.

I used to do it with, like, mustard. Mustard.

I don't like mustard. Yeah, I could put mustard and cheese on it. So you like turkey sandwiches?

Yes.

Mayonnaise or marigold whip? Do you have a preference?

No, not really. Try not. Try not to use them. Mustard.

Okay.

Mustard.

Definitely mayonnaise.

Miracle Whip is not mayonnaise. That's funny. That was a funny question.

The humorous part is that's actually what I grew up on, Miracle Whip. And for the longest time, I thought Miracle Whip was the stuff. And then somewhere, you know, somebody gave me some regular mayonnaise and I went, what?

Why? What have I been missing out on all these years?

Speaking of branding, I mean, like, you can see the Miracle Whip label. You can?

Yeah.

As we're talking about it. Yes.

And you don't. Because. Not healthy or you just don't like the taste or.

No, it's just something I've tried to stay away from, if that makes sense, that it's, you know, I just don't think it moves the needle as far as flavor, usually. So things like ranch or mustard or something, those things have more flavor to.

Them, more bite to them. I agree. And mayonnaise, I learned again, you're right. Miracle Whip is a brand in itself. They've done a nice job of something. You use it like butter for. Like putting on bread for grilled cheese or adding to eggs. And though it is more like a compliment than a strong tasting thing, that still wasn't my last question, though. Pie. Cause Thanksgiving is pie. And I love pumpkin pie. I'm not a big pumpkin person, but I look forward to Thanksgiving because I love pumpkin pie.

One slice and done what? One slice of pumpkin pie in your head.

Enough. What kind of pie do you prefer?

Honestly, Peanut butter pie, but that's me.

Oh, that sounds good, too. I like sugar pie.

Mince meat actually is pretty good. I kind of like mincemeat a little bit.

You lost me.

Not a mincemeat fan.

I like sugar pie that we talked about for the air. Chocolate.

I don't even understand what goes into mincemeat pie. That's the thing.

That's fine. What about you, Kai? You a pie person or. No, not.

I try to stay away from desserts. Not because it's, you know, they're unhealthy or anything else. It's just one of those things where, like, I just had stay away from desserts. So my family would, if they were listening to this, they'd be like, yep, yep, he never has desserts. But, like, if somebody said you have to have one, I'd lean more towards the chocolate end of it. Chocolate and peanut butter.

That.

That kind of, you know.

So not many fruit pies here, which. Me neither, but. Okay. Well, hopefully you get a good piece of pie with Thanksgiving dinner.

Might be. I don't know.

That's why I like the food part of this podcast. We never know what we're gonna get from it. But until next time, go stars.

Stars on Sports Outro: Stars on Sports is recorded live at the WLNZ studios. Engineering and production assistance are provided by Daedalian Lowry. You can listen to this episode and other episodes of Stars on Sports on demand at LCCconnect.org to find more information about our athletic program, visit LCCstars.com thanks for listening. Go Stars!