1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,240 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today, we learn how to leverage a successful crowdfunding campaign to grow exponentially bigger from one of the world's leading experts on crowdfunding itself. 2 00:00:10,140 --> 00:00:24,880 Kevin Mako: This is the Product Startup Podcast, a show to learn from top leaders in hardware product development, prototyping, manufacturing, product selling, and everything in between. Hosted by Kevin Mako, the leading expert on product development for hardware startups. 3 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:36,060 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. I'm very excited to welcome back Will Ford to the show. Will is the President and Co-Founder of LaunchBoom, the leading crowdfunding agency helping hardware startups launch on Kickstarter and Indiegogo. 4 00:00:36,060 --> 00:00:53,700 Kevin Mako: Today, Will shares valuable knowledge for inventors, startups, and small manufacturers on how a successful crowdfunding campaign can lead to exponentially higher investment money raised after the campaign, increased sales to many different channels, and general best practices on both raising hardware startup funding and crowdfunding best practices for your invention product. 5 00:00:53,700 --> 00:00:54,880 Kevin Mako: Now, onto the episode. 6 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:13,120 Kevin Mako: This show is produced by Mako Design, the original firm providing end-to-end consumer product development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, small manufacturers, and inventors. Take your product from idea to store shelves at MakoDesign.com. Now, onto the episode. 7 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:16,460 Kevin Mako: Hey, Will. Welcome back to the show. 8 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,940 Will Ford: Hey, Kevin. It's great to be back. How's everything going? How are you? 9 00:01:20,100 --> 00:01:24,860 Kevin Mako: All is good. Appreciate you asking, and I'm excited today to talk about kind of the next step in crowdfunding. 10 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:51,640 Kevin Mako: So, anybody listening in that hasn't heard the prior episodes, we've had a couple with both Will and his partner, Mark. Great episodes about leading into crowdfunding and then crowdfunding itself. Today, we're going to talk about the advantages to hardware startups post-crowdfunding campaigns. After you succeeded in your crowdfunding campaign, what happens next? Will, before we get into all that fun stuff, just give us a bit of a backstory of how you became the success story that you are today. 11 00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:54,820 Will Ford: Yeah, sure. So I'm like many people listening, Kevin. I'm a serial entrepreneur. 12 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:22,480 Will Ford: I've launched multiple companies from the ground up, and I've had some huge exits. I've also had some even bigger epic fails along the way. I'd say I've raised millions of dollars in capital to support a lot of these various businesses that I've launched over the years. I've raised money from angel investors. I've raised money through debt, like convertible notes. I've raised money from venture capital. 13 00:02:22,740 --> 00:02:24,660 Will Ford: And I made some mistakes early on with my first couple of businesses. 14 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:54,700 Will Ford: With my first couple of businesses, I remember my first business, I raised a ton of money super early before I had even really validated the concept. And in that specific deal, it turned out to be super successful. But I gave away way too much equity for such a little amount of capital. Once I scaled that business and ended up exiting, I ended up making my investors a ton of money, and I did okay. And I remember being a little resentful about that experience because I did all the work. 15 00:02:54,880 --> 00:03:24,860 Will Ford: I put all the sweat hours in, and I made everyone else rich. And I came out with maybe a solid double when I was hoping for a grand slam like all my other investors ended up on that deal. You know, I learned from that experience. I'd say the biggest takeaway, Kevin, was learning that when it comes to raising capital for any business, you really want to bootstrap as long as possible to really get as far as you can before you place the value on your company, which is why in my second business, I ended up leveraging convertible debt. 16 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:51,040 Will Ford: Convertible debt is also a great instrument that really serves the entrepreneur because you can leverage the capital today to grow your business before you value your company. And then once you're ready to make that valuation, that convertible debt will convert at a discount normally of whatever that valuation is. So it's much, much better for the entrepreneur to leverage convertible debt. And then eventually, Kevin, that's what led me to crowdfunding. 17 00:03:51,040 --> 00:04:21,020 Will Ford: I couldn't believe when I learned about Kickstarter and Indiegogo that I could take a prototype, I could take a product idea, and I could literally pre-sell it to thousands of people worldwide on these Kickstarter and Indiegogo platforms. I could pre-sell thousands of units, then take all the money off the platform, and then have all the time in the world to work through manufacturing, fulfillment, and eventually delivering a positive experience to those backers that came in and pre-ordered my product on Kickstarter and Indiegogo. 18 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:50,820 Will Ford: And for me, that was like when the light bulb turned on. And that's when I realized, wow, there's a much bigger opportunity here. I first started crowdfunding back in 2014 when I was advising a young college student at UCSD, and he was launching a consumer product on Kickstarter. He approached me and said, Will, I need help raising $30,000. And I'm like, what's the $30,000 for? And he goes, basically, I want to put the 30 grand into pre-launch advertising. 19 00:04:51,040 --> 00:05:09,340 Will Ford: So I can build a hyper-focused community of people interested in my product before I go to Kickstarter. And I'm like, and what's your hypothesis? What do you want to do with that 30 grand? He was like, I want to turn that 30 grand into $300,000 in pre-sales. So that's like a 10x return on ad spend, Kevin. 20 00:05:09,500 --> 00:05:23,040 Will Ford: Once he said that, I was super interested, and I helped him raise $30,000. And that's when I went through my very first Kickstarter experience with him. And we ended up turning that $30,000 into $750,000 in pre-sales. 21 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:23,640 Kevin Mako: Wow. 22 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:42,220 Will Ford: So it was a massive ROI, and I'd never seen returns like that on advertising spend before. So I started doing more research in Kickstarter into Indiegogo, and I realized that they were growing super fast. And I made a bet that they would be here 10 years later. And here I am, Kevin, 10 years after deciding to start LaunchBoom. 23 00:05:42,660 --> 00:05:51,020 Will Ford: And it's been probably one of the most incredible entrepreneurial experiences of my life, because I literally get to work with entrepreneurs every single day. 24 00:05:51,040 --> 00:06:13,100 Will Ford: I get to work with super smart, talented product creators all over the world. And we've launched over 1,000 successful launches on Kickstarter, on Indiegogo. We've been scaling really fast the last couple years, where we're now launching hundreds of products a year. It's a really, really exciting time to be in crowdfunding, to be here at LaunchBoom. 25 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:21,020 Will Ford: But the reason I started LaunchBoom was being an entrepreneur, to be able to validate and test a new product idea. 26 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:38,060 Will Ford: And then do the hard part, which is like actually pre-sell it and prove that the market has demand for your product. And then being able to take that capital from the platforms, manufacture and deliver a good experience, it gives the entrepreneur so much more leverage, right? 27 00:06:38,060 --> 00:06:50,480 Will Ford: Because once they go through that Kickstarter or Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign process, and they have a successful outcome, now they have way more leverage. So if they want to go raise capital at that point, that's the time to do it. 28 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:50,740 Kevin Mako: Right. 29 00:06:51,040 --> 00:07:17,520 Will Ford: And then they can look any investor in the eyeballs and say, hey, the last few months, we just raised hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars in pre-sales. And clearly, there's massive demand for the products we're launching and that we plan to launch in the future. Now the entrepreneur has much more leverage to justify a much higher valuation. And now the idea is they can raise way more capital faster and give away much less equity and still keep full control of their companies. 30 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,020 Will Ford: So that honestly is like why I started LaunchBoom. 31 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:38,460 Will Ford: And what's been even more interesting, Kevin, and we haven't ever really talked about this on our personal calls, but we've seen massive success over the years are when our clients go through our system here at LaunchBoom, and we deliver these massive Kickstarter campaign outcomes. 32 00:07:38,460 --> 00:07:46,940 Will Ford: Once they deliver that positive experience or that product to those backers on Kickstarter and Indiegogo who are just pre-ordering the products. 33 00:07:47,620 --> 00:07:51,020 Will Ford: And for everyone listening, the only reason Kickstarter and Indiegogo... 34 00:07:51,040 --> 00:08:05,500 Will Ford: continue to thrive is because backers go to these platforms, they want access to the coolest products, they want to get a discount on retail, and they're happy to give you their money and wait for you to figure out manufacturing and delivery before they receive it. 35 00:08:05,540 --> 00:08:09,000 Will Ford: So you're actually not giving away any equity, you're just pre-selling product. 36 00:08:09,820 --> 00:08:20,040 Will Ford: And what's really interesting is when we take our clients that have been through Kickstarter and Indiegogo, and then we take their companies over to the equity crowdfunding platforms, like Wefunder and StartEngine. 37 00:08:20,620 --> 00:08:32,020 Will Ford: What we can do is through just email marketing without spending any money in advertising, we can send an email to the backers from Kickstarter and Indiegogo thanking them for supporting the campaign. 38 00:08:32,300 --> 00:08:36,520 Will Ford: Because of them, now that product is real, and it's in the market, and it's thriving. 39 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:46,180 Will Ford: And what we do is we position the email and let the backers know that now for the first time ever, they can actually own stock and shares in their company. 40 00:08:46,180 --> 00:08:50,500 Will Ford: And so what we do is through literally just simple email marketing, Kevin. 41 00:08:50,620 --> 00:08:59,440 Will Ford: And we can retarget those backers from Kickstarter and now convert the consumer into investors on the equity crowdfunding platforms. 42 00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:10,200 Will Ford: Over the years, it's not abnormal to see 30% or more of those backers from Kickstarter put more money in the deal and become investors through just simple email marketing. 43 00:09:10,460 --> 00:09:19,260 Will Ford: So there's so much opportunity for the product creators and entrepreneurs that are leveraging Kickstarter and Indiegogo to not only do the hard part, which is the validation, 44 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:20,600 Will Ford: and proving that there's demand. 45 00:09:20,620 --> 00:09:26,380 Will Ford: But now they have more leverage to take that deal to venture capital, to equity crowdfunding. 46 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:33,960 Will Ford: We've seen so many of our clients over the years, Kevin, go through the LaunchBoom crowdfunding process and have a massive campaign outcome. 47 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,180 Will Ford: And then we get them plugged into our e-commerce partners. 48 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,460 Will Ford: We get them plugged into our retail partners and our Amazon partners. 49 00:09:40,740 --> 00:09:50,500 Will Ford: And we've had so many clients that may raise a few hundred thousand dollars in pre-sales on Kickstarter go on to do tens of millions of dollars a year. 50 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,240 Will Ford: Through these other channels like Amazon and retail and e-commerce. 51 00:09:55,040 --> 00:10:05,120 Will Ford: What keeps me excited and fired up every day here at LaunchBoom, 10 years later, is the fact that I've seen so many of my clients come to me who have never launched a product before. 52 00:10:05,540 --> 00:10:06,700 Will Ford: We take them through crowdfunding. 53 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,440 Will Ford: We get them plugged into our partners to help them scale. 54 00:10:10,180 --> 00:10:15,220 Will Ford: And watching some of these clients of ours exit for tens of millions of dollars. 55 00:10:15,860 --> 00:10:19,160 Will Ford: We've even had some clients exit for hundreds of millions of dollars. 56 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:20,580 Will Ford: A great example of that. 57 00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:22,860 Will Ford: I'm sure you've heard of Dr. Squatch. 58 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:23,660 Will Ford: Yeah, of course. 59 00:10:24,220 --> 00:10:29,160 Will Ford: And the founder, Jack, he was a guy who lived down the street from us here in San Diego. 60 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,000 Will Ford: And he came into our office one day and he had these cool bars of soap. 61 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:36,420 Will Ford: And he goes, hey, you know, I'm thinking about launching this on Kickstarter. 62 00:10:36,900 --> 00:10:38,360 Will Ford: And so we took him through our system. 63 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,880 Will Ford: We raised six figures in pre-sales on Kickstarter. 64 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:47,280 Will Ford: Eventually, he called me up a few years ago and he goes, hey, Will, you're not going to believe it, but I've got a Super Bowl commercial. 65 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,040 Will Ford: And I'm like, that's so cool, man. 66 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,960 Will Ford: And then a year later, he exited for a massive, a massive amount. 67 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:56,560 Will Ford: He ended up crushing it. 68 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:03,720 Will Ford: And so being able to work with people all around the world who have really cool product ideas to take them through this crowdfunding process, 69 00:11:03,820 --> 00:11:09,920 Will Ford: which is the fastest, easiest, most affordable, most efficient way to validate and test any new consumer product, 70 00:11:10,540 --> 00:11:17,460 Will Ford: and then help them pre-sell hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars worth of product within a 30-day period of time, 71 00:11:17,860 --> 00:11:19,860 Will Ford: really sets them up for massive success. 72 00:11:19,860 --> 00:11:25,260 Kevin Mako: And that's so powerful because when most people think of crowdfunding at the very beginning, 73 00:11:25,340 --> 00:11:30,900 Kevin Mako: of course, I get to talk to these clients when they're just in the ideation, sketching, industrial design, mechanical, electronic engineering phases. 74 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:33,360 Kevin Mako: So we're in the very early development phase. 75 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:39,240 Kevin Mako: So many of our clients are looking at crowdfunding as kind of like almost an end state. 76 00:11:39,380 --> 00:11:43,600 Kevin Mako: I know they want to grow beyond that, but really they're looking at it to say like, what can I raise on crowdfunding? 77 00:11:43,740 --> 00:11:44,500 Kevin Mako: How can I do it? 78 00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:49,440 Kevin Mako: And of course, LaunchBoom is amazing because you do the pre-crowdfunding, as we talked about on prior episodes. 79 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:58,600 Kevin Mako: And then the crowdfunding campaign itself, so you know how to successfully achieve what you need to do to make it a six-figure deal or more on the actual crowdfunding platforms. 80 00:11:58,940 --> 00:12:02,920 Kevin Mako: But the beauty of that is that is just the start of a much bigger business. 81 00:12:03,420 --> 00:12:08,780 Kevin Mako: That's why I really was excited to have you back on the show today to talk about kind of what happens after the crowdfunding campaign, 82 00:12:08,900 --> 00:12:13,180 Kevin Mako: because I think one of the main messages, and you and I were kind of talking about this before we got on the show, 83 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:18,440 Kevin Mako: a really important message that you've kind of threaded through all this, which I appreciate, is the whole funding option. 84 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:25,120 Kevin Mako: And I know hardware startups are always thinking about funding and typically are trying to raise money too early. 85 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:32,440 Kevin Mako: They end up giving away so much equity, which in the beginning, I think, well, it's no big deal because the business isn't worth anything anyway. 86 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:35,660 Kevin Mako: So I'll give half of it away for 50 grand or 100 grand. 87 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,480 Kevin Mako: And it sounds like a good idea in the beginning. 88 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:45,460 Kevin Mako: But then when you look at it downstream and see how many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars you could have raised for a fraction of that equity, 89 00:12:45,940 --> 00:12:49,400 Kevin Mako: That will both heavily stunt you going forward, to be able to scale. 90 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,280 Kevin Mako: But also, as you alluded in both your story and as we've seen in so many hardware startups, 91 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,760 Kevin Mako: even if it's a very successful venture, you end up with peanuts compared to everybody else at the end of the day. 92 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:02,180 Kevin Mako: So this is your invention, your product, your idea. 93 00:13:02,620 --> 00:13:07,760 Kevin Mako: You've got the tools here with LaunchBoom and with crowdfunding to be able to execute, prove the model. 94 00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:13,480 Kevin Mako: You've got the tools, obviously, here at Mako Design, or through your own design teams or engineering, to actually get the product to manufacturing. 95 00:13:13,860 --> 00:13:14,680 Kevin Mako: You have a great product. 96 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,020 Kevin Mako: You have the way to launch it. 97 00:13:16,260 --> 00:13:19,380 Kevin Mako: Use that to springboard and get that money in advance. 98 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,540 Kevin Mako: Then, like you said, take the heavy lift of actually manufacturing and delivering those products. 99 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,900 Kevin Mako: Then, if you really need the money at that point, raise it then. 100 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:28,480 Kevin Mako: Don't raise it early. 101 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,060 Kevin Mako: And you'll raise exponentially more money for less equity. 102 00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:39,560 Kevin Mako: And that is so powerful for a hardware startup that is really in the infancy of what is the scaling phase of their business. 103 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:41,820 Kevin Mako: At this point, you're past the development. 104 00:13:42,180 --> 00:13:44,160 Kevin Mako: You're past the first manufacturing, let's call it. 105 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,920 Kevin Mako: And now you're into the growth phase of your business. 106 00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:48,340 Will Ford: Yeah, exactly. 107 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:49,320 Will Ford: And Kevin, I mean, 108 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:54,180 Will Ford: that's honestly why I think you and I have become so close over the years is because, you know, 109 00:13:54,240 --> 00:14:02,520 Will Ford: Your team at Mako does a great job helping these product creators take their ideas and turn them into real products that can actually be manufactured. 110 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,780 Will Ford: Where you can control the cost, have all that nailed down before you even start with us here at LaunchBoom. 111 00:14:08,380 --> 00:14:19,380 Will Ford: And then when you start with us here at LaunchBoom, the beauty for any hardware consumer product creator is the fact that now they can leverage LaunchBoom to basically help them validate and test. 112 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,420 Will Ford: We can help them maximize their average order value so we can help them really nail down pricing. 113 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:33,160 Will Ford: We can help them build a huge engaged audience of potential consumers that are going to convert really, really well once we get ready to launch on Kickstarter. 114 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,720 Will Ford: And that's really what we've pioneered here at LaunchBoom is what we call pre-launch. 115 00:14:37,220 --> 00:14:45,020 Will Ford: And we have a pre-launch system and process where we can help our clients understand how to set up the messaging, the positioning, how to maximize their average order value. 116 00:14:45,340 --> 00:14:49,420 Will Ford: We can pull from our tens of—we have over 10 million backer emails in our database 117 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,660 Will Ford: that have bought one or more of our products over the last 10 years. 118 00:14:52,660 --> 00:15:01,080 Will Ford: So we can share those audiences with our clients to help them target certain audiences that we think are going to be like the ideal avatar and consumer for their product. 119 00:15:01,540 --> 00:15:10,100 Will Ford: And then we can help them actually start doing that testing on Facebook and Instagram so we can understand how to build a massive audience during pre-launch. 120 00:15:10,220 --> 00:15:14,280 Will Ford: That's going to convert really, really well on Kickstarter and Indiegogo once we're ready to go live. 121 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:19,420 Will Ford: But most importantly, we only launch these Kickstarter and Indiegogo campaigns when we can control that. 122 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:33,920 Will Ford: When we can actually raise the amount of money that we need to pre-sell on Kickstarter and Indiegogo to then give your client more than enough capital to support that manufacturing and delivery so that now they don't need to raise a lot of capital. 123 00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:35,080 Will Ford: They can do it themselves. 124 00:15:35,260 --> 00:15:36,540 Will Ford: They can continue to bootstrap. 125 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,200 Will Ford: I always tell everyone, again, I'll repeat it. 126 00:15:39,740 --> 00:15:43,780 Will Ford: Don't raise any type of capital unless you really actually need it. 127 00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:47,320 Will Ford: Bootstrap as long and as hard as it may be. 128 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,320 Will Ford: Keep bootstrapping at least until you get there. 129 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,760 Will Ford: Get through the Kickstarter and Indiegogo campaign. 130 00:15:52,420 --> 00:15:55,600 Will Ford: Once that's successful, you're going to get all the capital you need. 131 00:15:55,980 --> 00:16:02,560 Will Ford: Now Kevin's team can basically take you through full manufacturing and now get your product delivered to real customers. 132 00:16:03,140 --> 00:16:15,260 Will Ford: And then from there, it's so much easier for our clients once they have landed a product to now go into e-commerce, go into Amazon, start working those retail connections so that they can get into big box retail if that's part of their strategy. 133 00:16:15,260 --> 00:16:18,180 Will Ford: And then start scaling much faster beyond crowdfunding. 134 00:16:19,060 --> 00:16:19,560 Kevin Mako: Powerful, Will. 135 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,280 Kevin Mako: Much appreciated. 136 00:16:20,420 --> 00:16:23,660 Kevin Mako: And before I let you go, what's the website where folks can go to learn more? 137 00:16:23,980 --> 00:16:26,160 Kevin Mako: And of course, I'll put all the links below in the show notes too. 138 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:34,140 Will Ford: Anyone interested in learning more about how to launch their consumer products on Kickstarter or Indiegogo, go to launchboom.com. 139 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,160 Will Ford: We have the most free education about crowdfunding in the industry. 140 00:16:38,420 --> 00:16:40,360 Will Ford: It's all there on our website. 141 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:48,160 Will Ford: We also, if you have more questions or want to speak to an actual human being on our team, there's a place on the website where you can very easily. 142 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:54,500 Will Ford: Give us a little bit more information about your product idea so we can get you on a call with someone on my team to answer any other questions you may have. 143 00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:56,740 Will Ford: But yeah, launchboom.com is the best place to go. 144 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,200 Kevin Mako: And you guys have literally written the book, well, twice now on the very subject of crowdfunding. 145 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:02,040 Will Ford: That's right. 146 00:17:02,140 --> 00:17:02,580 Will Ford: That's right. 147 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:11,460 Will Ford: So if you go to Amazon and type in crowdfunded, that's the name of the book, and you guys will be able to learn exactly step by step how we do this for our clients. 148 00:17:11,860 --> 00:17:17,780 Kevin Mako: Well, much appreciated yet again for all your words of wisdom around crowdfunding, the benefits of it, what they can do after crowdfunding today. 149 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:19,220 Kevin Mako: Thanks again for being on the show. 150 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,560 Kevin Mako: I look forward to talking to you again soon. 151 00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:21,540 Will Ford: Thank you, Kevin. 152 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:22,340 Kevin Mako: Thanks, Will. 153 00:17:22,380 --> 00:17:22,720 Kevin Mako: Take care. 154 00:17:22,820 --> 00:17:23,020 Kevin Mako: Bye-bye. 155 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,080 Kevin Mako: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast. 156 00:17:28,260 --> 00:17:33,640 Kevin Mako: If you found some value in the show, please do us a huge favor and hit the like button and subscribe. 157 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:42,860 Kevin Mako: If you have any questions, guest suggestions, or anything else, feel free to reach out to us anytime at our email, podcast@makodesign.com. 158 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:48,000 Kevin Mako: This show is hosted by Kevin Mako, North America's leading expert on product development. 159 00:17:48,000 --> 00:18:00,400 Kevin Mako: And the podcast is produced by Mako Design, the original firm providing end-to-end consumer product development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, small manufacturers, and inventors. 160 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,760 Kevin Mako: Take your product from idea to store shelves at MakoDesign.com. 161 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,800 Kevin Mako: That's M-A-K-O Design dot com. 162 00:18:08,060 --> 00:18:10,220 Kevin Mako: Thanks for joining and see you again soon.