Jim Sorenson: [00:00:00] that month our billing was horrible and I thought, am I going to have to be here in order for this machine to run? Am I going to have to be here? Which does that mean no more family vacations? What have I done? And that became really scary because I didn't want to be a slave to it. I wanted to know that it would run without us. and so that kind of led us down the path of trying to figure out how do we keep this machine moving when we're not in the office, when we're not here, you know, quote unquote, cracking the whip and it's not necessarily cracking the whip, but just being present and being in person in the office. 


Tyler Van Leuven: we had no idea what our numbers were. I mean, we knew what our profit was and, you know, our P and L and, you know, budget and all that. But if you'd ask me how many cases we have coming in or leads or none, all we know is we had to make a certain number every month in order to break even or make money 


MPS: [00:01:00] Hey Law Firm Owner, welcome to the Your Practice Mastered Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm MPS. 


Richard James: And I'm Richard James, a MPS. I always say this. We got a great show planned for you, but I mean that specifically today because we have two of our favorite members in the room, Tyler Van Leuven, as well as Jim Sorenson. And one of the things that makes them my favorite is because when they came into our world they come from a practice area that I really didn't expect. Like they walked up to me and told me that they focus on working with credit unions. And it was the first time I'd ever walked into that particular practice area. 


And in the beginning, I wasn't sure, were we going to be a fit or a match? And they have. Fit right into our community because they are business minded attorneys who own a law firm and I don't know, I've really enjoyed getting to know the both of you watching your growth, watching you implement and hearing all the stories of your [00:02:00] success. 


So Tyler, Jim, welcome to the show today. 


Tyler Van Leuven: Thanks for having us. 


Jim Sorenson: Yeah, thank you. We're excited to be here. 


Richard James: Cool. 


MPS: excited to have you. And to kind of break the ice a little bit for everyone listening, we like to start with a little get to know you. So, what's something that maybe not everyone knows about you? 


And either one of you could take this to start. 


Jim Sorenson: I'll go first. So one of the things that not a lot of people know about me is in college, I was a collegiate debater. I did collegiate debate and won a national title in collegiate debate. So at that time, I wasn't sure I wanted to be a lawyer. 


Was interesting. A lot of the people on the debate team all intended to be a lawyer. 


Several of those did not go on to be a lawyer. I, of course, went on to be a lawyer. But, yeah, that's, something that a lot of people don't know about me. 


Richard James: MPS. This is why we don't debate with our clients. 


MPS: I feel like the whole debate team probably could have been lawyers, [00:03:00] but whether or not they chose to be was a different story. But that's exactly right. Experts in verbal judo, as we say. 


Richard James: That's correct. 


Jim Sorenson: Yes. 


Tyler Van Leuven: As to myself I'm the father of three awesome daughters and I never would have thought I'd be that. And that did not, one people, that did not make me lose my hair. I was already losing my hair at like 20. I took after my grandfather, so 


Richard James: You have three daughters. I have, I have two boys as you know, and I have a friend of mine who has three daughters as well, and his youngest daughter, he had her a little bit later in life, she's just turned 16 and my boys were forced to save as much money as they could and then we would match it, and it usually meant they bought some very, very entry level vehicle. And his daughter at 16, he showed me a picture of her gift. It was a softly used BMW SUV with a custom [00:04:00] wrap. And I go, what's wrong with you? He goes, You don't have girls. I go, Oh, maybe, maybe this is the thing. I don't know. So apparently he said, he's got, she has him wrapped around her little finger. Is that the truth in your house as well? 


Tyler Van Leuven: 100 percent the truth. I mean, when I turned 16, I had a. My parents gave me a Chrysler LeBaron station wagon with the wood paneling that did not run. My daughter got a slightly used Volkswagen T1. That's great with a, you know, leather sunroof, the whole nine yards. 


MPS: whole nine yards. Jim knows. He can, 


Tyler Van Leuven: Jim knows. He can, he can attest to that. Yeah, it 


Jim Sorenson: That is true. That is true. 


Richard James: that's great. Well, you know what? We're just human. That's all there is to it. We're just human. 


MPS: just human. 


Richard James: listen, I, think MPS, let's dive into it. Right. I'm excited because Because these [00:05:00] are two gentlemen who own businesses. They own a law firm, but they sell to other businesses. That's their clients. Right. And so I, I love that dynamic, but I'm, excited to hear their journey. Cause I don't know that I've ever heard their full journey and I'm excited to hear about it. 


Yeah. and it's nice to see the different perspective of the B2B side of things. So I think this will offer a, a unique view. And so I'm too looking forward to the journey. You guys can choose who wants to kick it off, but I'd love to hear the high points. 


Jim Sorenson: Yeah, I'll start us off and then Tyler can add anything that he thinks I or wants to clarify. So, I started in working with credit unions when I was actually in law school, went to clerk for a lawyer who I ended up going to work for, who was kind of my mentor. He was in a law firm and I became his associate and four or five years into it became a partner, owner that At [00:06:00] that time, I did not really think of myself in the entrepreneurial lane. I was a lawyer first. I wasn't a business owner first. And I ended up hiring Tyler. He was my first associate. And Tyler came to work for us over time. Our area of the firm grew, and we continued working together. Tyler and I in that firm and built a team. And in 2016 we, things started to happen at that firm the gentleman who had mentored me and brought me into the industry was kind of approaching retirement and some things were changing within the firm. And Tyler and I decided to leave and we started our own firm in 2017. And If Tyler had had hair, then it probably would have fallen out. 


Tyler Van Leuven: Scary. 


Jim Sorenson: my hair went gray at that point. we decided we would try to take our team with us and take our clients and wasn't sure how it was gonna [00:07:00] work. If I remember correctly, all but one of our clients followed us and our staff stayed with us. And we launched out in this new arena where we were now doing everything. So we went from a firm with several partners and to just Tyler and I and we had to start learning the business aspect. There was a lot of parts that were run by a professional who was, you know, business manager and So we started down that road and started to think more like business owners. And, and of course, eventually we found you and Partners Club and came into that world in May of 2019. So I guess about two, not quite two and a half years into our journey with the new law firm. So 


Richard James: It, you know, it's interesting, Jim, I don't know if you want, or sorry, Tyler, I don't know if you want to add anything to what Jim said before I comment 


Tyler Van Leuven: I mean, it was scary. I mean, that's the bottom line. And we went from picking up the phone and telling something, you know, telling somebody to make it [00:08:00] happen. And it happened to pick it up the phone and telling somebody to make it happen. And it was me or Jim. 


MPS: Jim. 


Tyler Van Leuven: It was a little scary. And we started, like Jim said, we, our entire team and it was Well, I guess it was six. 


I mean, it's Jim and myself and four attorneys and 21 staff people with zero revenue. So, I was a little, a little anxious. 


Richard James: And and hoping like, heck that. So, okay. Some details. So. 


MPS: So, 


Richard James: Roughly, 


MPS: you can, you 


Richard James: you could, you know, were you both making like north of 200 each or less than 200 each from that other firm. 


Jim Sorenson: I was making north of it. Tyler was making less than that, I believe. 


Richard James: Okay. So, but still. Not like it's not like you were leaving because you were underpaid, you know what I mean? Underpaid, right? You were, you were paid whether it's well or not, it can be defined of course, but you know, you were earning, you, it was kind of income that your family could live off [00:09:00] of. And as you said, you didn't see yourselves necessarily as entrepreneurial, but you didn't love the direction the firm was going and the, Mentor who you had loyalty to was retiring and probably with some sort of conversation with them and blessing from them. You're like, you know what? It's time to go off on our own. And so I can imagine that conversation with you and your spouses and you're like, We're going to do this, but you know, it's, I don't find this to be maybe you could tell me, I don't find this to be an uncommon story. It's Michael, it's not regular. We hear the attorney comes to us and go, you know what? I knew I was going to own a law firm from the day that I went into law school. I was going to be a law firm owner and I was going to start my own shop. I mean, it happens. But more often than not, it's, I got into this practice area because I started working for this firm and they mentored me and I fell in love with the practice area. And then something happened, X happened, and I decided that I was going to go off on my own, whatever that X thing was. And now they find themselves owning a law firm that they [00:10:00] didn't expect that they were going to do. And so I guess my, question, if I have one is, do you regret that decision, Jim, do you regret that decision, Tyler? 


Tyler Van Leuven: I don't regret it. I mean, I just, it was a, it was a blessing in disguise. It was, 


Jim Sorenson: I, agree. I don't regret it. there have certainly been some tough times, you know, like, you know, Tyler said, bringing in 21 staff people the first couple months of, are we going to make payroll? How is this going to work? You know, we, we had some money in the bank for, Tyler had some money in the bank and I had some money in the bank, but you know, we didn't want to raid our, children's college funds and dip into our retirement. We, you know, but we didn't know how this was going to happen and so, but no, I, I've not regretted it at all. 


Richard James: Yeah, that could have easily been a 90 to 150,000 commitment month one, depending somewhere in that range, right? 


MPS: right? Yep. 


Richard James: So yeah, that's no joke. MPS, we don't see that. we see, well, we don't, I don't think we see this very often where they start with [00:11:00] that level of liability, commitment, whatever, however we want to put it right. That level of commitment they're going to have to make. But we, see this story more often than not. That a law firm owner out there decides to make the leap. And then they found themselves in that business that they didn't realize all the things that happened behind the scenes. And maybe they knew about it intellectually, but the actual doing of it, they weren't necessarily prepared. What was faced that we're going to be faced with. Is that fair? Michael, 


MPS: Oh, it's definitely fair. I'm talking about being thrown in the deep end on that one, you know, carrying over 21 employees and four attorneys. That's that's a heck of a leap. But I'm curious to hear from you guys as you kicked into it, what, and I'm sure there were several but what would you say was the biggest challenge that you guys encountered and what'd you do to solve it? 


Jim Sorenson: would say, you know, the biggest challenge and kind of what led us into your world was you know, not, I did not want to feel like [00:12:00] I was going to be tied to the office all the time. I remember Tyler and I were trying some different things to motivate staff and to keep work running and, you know, We had that first year, our first couple months, I think people were excited, so they went well. And then we had a month where Tyler and I both had some business travel because of the type of work we do. A lot of our leads come from attending events, credit union events. And so we had some credit union events we had to attend. Which took us out of the office and then maybe we each had some personal time we took to. I don't remember the details, but I remember, you know, that month our billing was horrible and I thought, uh oh, am I going to have to be here in order for this machine to run? Am I going to have to be here? Which does that mean no more family vacations? What is, what have I done? And that, that became really scary because I didn't want to be a slave to it. I wanted to know that it would [00:13:00] run without us. And and so that kind of led us down the path of trying to figure out how do we keep this machine moving when we're not in the office, when we're not here, you know, quote unquote, cracking the whip and it's not necessarily cracking the whip, but just being present and being in person in the office. 


Tyler Van Leuven: We had no idea what our numbers were. Absolutely none. I mean, we met with our accountant, but we had a, we knew what our profit was and, you know, our P and L and, you know, budget and all that. But, if you'd ask me how many cases we have coming in or leads or none, all we know is we had to make a certain number every month in order to break even or make money. And after those 1st, couple of months of excitement, I mean, I literally, I was like, Jim, we're gonna have to back down the hatches and I'm normally more so that way. Anyways, I'll even to this day, I'm like, well. We gotta, we gotta, we gotta lock this sucker down 


Tyler Van Leuven: Jim's usually the more [00:14:00] calming of the two of us, but yeah, it was we did a couple things and made it things but I remember we were at the tech show in Chicago, and Jim and I were both up there, and he came across your booth. 


Richard James: yeah, that's right. Megan was there. 


Tyler Van Leuven: Yeah, 


Richard James: was the only time we ever went to that show. 


MPS: Actually, 


Richard James: that's interesting. 


Tyler Van Leuven: you went. 


Richard James: Yeah, well, I'm glad we went to, you know, by the way, Alonzo, there's your headline, right? The headline for the show has got to be. At one moment I thought to myself, oh, what did I just do, right? Cause like, there it is summarized. That, like, wait, who's gonna make sure that the billable hours still go out the door? It's very interesting. And this isn't unique to an attorney. When I owned funeral homes, I felt the same way I had to embalm all the bodies. I had to call every car at the funerals. That's what I thought was supposed to happen. Cause that's what my grandfather, that's what my uncle did. And so I just assumed that's what I was going to have to [00:15:00] do. And then I started learning. But it took me a minute and a plumber who is used to replacing the water heater themselves that they think they're the ones that have to replace the water heater. An accountant feels they're the ones that have to do the taxes. So anybody that's in a trade or a profession where they're doing the labor that they and they're the technician, whether it's a billable hour, a flat fee or whatever They feel an obligation that it's got to be up to them. And at some point if they're not born entrepreneurial, if they didn't always have a spirit of owning the business and then being a constant learning down that channel something happens where there's like, you know, either enough is enough. They get sick and tired of being sick and tired. Do they have that epiphany where it's like you know, we've got to do something and we've got to learn this other side of the business, other side of owning a business, of being the business owner. And that's when the magic starts to happen. And I've watched the two of you make this transition from when we first met in Arizona, in Mesa, Arizona, right, [00:16:00] in 2019. I think it was the Delta Hotel, if I'm not mistaken. And yeah, and so here we are, we meet then, and I watched this transition that you made. And you now know your numbers and you now have confident that the billable hours can go out the door and you guys can take a vacation without your cell phone and your laptop and the business will keep on going. And so it's really exciting to know that there is a path there, but MPS, what questions you want to ask about that path.


MPS: Well, so what was the first, you identified the issue, what was the first tactical tool or trade you implemented to start solving it? 


Jim Sorenson: Well, I think for me individually, the first step was After realizing there was a problem was I had to change my thinking. And, you know, early on, I would hear people say, and even my mentor would talk about delegating, but it never quite clicked with me because I'm like, [00:17:00] I'm a lawyer. I can't delegate to a legal assistant or to, you know, whatever their position is. But it's the part of, and it's what you all talk about. And, you know, it's replicating yourself in the business. So how do you replicate yourself in the business? And, and so I think the, to me, it was that, okay, well, if I want certain things to happen, we've got to put in place rules of engagement. So it was getting some of our procedures and processes nailed down. It was looking at some of the things we do In the business could be delegated, but it's not just simply, hey, you need to do this. It's explaining how we want it done. Because, you know, just telling somebody to do it doesn't mean it's going to get done the way you want it or expect it or need to. So that to me was kind of our initial step of really getting our rules of engagement. Defined and laid out and getting comfortable with the idea of, replicating ourselves in the business and, taking [00:18:00] certain things off of our plate and giving them to somebody else. 


Tyler Van Leuven: And during the pandemic you know, we joined, I guess, in what, March of 19. 


Richard James: Right. 


Tyler Van Leuven: And so the pandemic hit, you know, not too long thereafter, and it really kind of slowed our business down. So we're able to do some of these things that needed to be done, that we had learned that were important, as Jim said to tighten the ship, if you will.

Richard James: Yeah. you know, the mindset part of that argument is really, you know, The hardest part for us to get across to law firm owners. So if you're a law firm owner listening here, there's lots of different places to start. Interestingly enough, like Jim and Tyler have a business to business transactional, maybe some litigation in their practice where their clients are, credit unions that are with them as long as they do a good job for years and years, and they give them business over and over again. So. So, client acquisition, unlike a consumer law firm that wakes up every [00:19:00] morning and has to get new clients every day because that, once that client relationship is over, they're probably not coming back, you know, is different for them. so paying attention to the PCLC in the beginning, maybe it wasn't the place they needed to start to get their freedom. What they had to do is they had to start in a place where I, I wish a lot of law firm owners would start, which is having a mindset shift of what they have to do. Michael and I just created a. video not long ago Jim and Tyler about, we started off saying we're going to get a little controversial. and it, said, you know, what we think should happen is lawyers need to stop working on legal work or law firm owners should stop working on legal work. Right. and I know that's like this massive statement that's like, wait, what? And, and so if you're a law firm out there listening, that's what I want to hear from you. Like, I wish you can have this paradigm shift in your thinking where. you put more emphasis on how can we replace you as the lawyer? You know, there are business owners who have, who are plumbers or accountants or funeral homes or whatever that I [00:20:00] mentioned earlier, that they have the business and then they go hire these other people to go do the work. And they're just the business owner. They might be licensed in that profession, but they don't actually work with the tools any longer. And, I guess what I want to permission you to understand is regardless of what you might've been told or what you believe, It's actually okay to be a licensed attorney and not have to feel like you have to be the main one practicing the law. You can still serve as many clients and families, businesses as you want without you having to do the work. And sometimes you can get it done even better than when you did it because you're focused on so many things and the people you would hire to do it is focused on that one thing. And MPS, that's a huge change in this mindset arena. Would you agree? 


MPS: Oh, I would absolutely agree. I think the mindset is half the battle. If you could get the mindset down that goes for almost every aspect of business, right? In every department, if you could just get your mindset right in marketing and [00:21:00] sales and operations you're already half the way there. Now it just comes to business. tactical things, which just required doing and implementing. 


Richard James: Hey, MPS, I actually have a question for you. So, you know, you stepped into the world of working with attorneys about four ish years, five ish years ago now, I think it is. And so, You were, you were born the way that you're born. Like mom and I don't get any credit for the way you were born. You were just born this way. Yeah. You were raised around us. So you had to experience it, but you, you decided you were going to be an entrepreneur at a very young age. So my question to you is somebody who's born that way that you always knew you were going to have your own business. Like you were never going to have a job for a career long term, or you weren't going to do a certain thing. Your certain thing was going to be going to be owning businesses. When you walked into our world, and you experienced these wickedly intelligent professionals, like real, in some cases really stuck about the idea that they have to be the ones that do the work. They can't hire it [00:22:00] out. They can't replace themselves in that mental shift. What did you see? What did it look like to you? It like, what went through your head?


MPS: That's an interesting question. So, it always did come so innately to me, and it was always very interesting to see because everyone in that room was highly intelligent, right? So everyone in there was highly intelligent. So the experience of them not quite getting just that little shift of like, all right, if we just look at this just a little bit differently, it's very interesting to see, but the flip side is also true. Which is the moment they did have that light bulb moment in the switch did flip. Well then it was like just throwing gasoline on the fire because now they're highly intelligent and made switch flip. So now they just go in like gangbusters and they got it and they're like in. And so that was also cool. It was always fascinating to see the other side and it usually took, necessity create that switch, right? [00:23:00] Something had to happen for them to flip the switch, but when they did, it was fun to watch. I'm curious, Jim and Tyler what's, guys have had this very exciting journey and here you are today, but what's got you both fired up and excited today? Could be business, could be personal, could be both. 


Jim Sorenson: I would say for me, you know, it's a combination of business and personal. But we last month dropped our youngest off to college. So my wife she. and I are kind of entered that new phase of being empty nesters. And so much of my wife's time has been spent with the Children. We have four Children, and she, of course, has recently started working with us in the business. But just freedom her and I have now to do some things we weren't able to do when our kids were younger and we had kids in school and wanted to be there for their events and their activities. And so this new phase of life and how that's going to allow. me to do some things that my [00:24:00] wife and I have wanted to do. We, just got back a week and a half ago from Scotland and Ireland and had a great trip over there and you know, didn't have to check into the office and you know, those were the things that I was worried about. For five years ago those are the things that are really exciting exciting to me and in kind of that change of life 


Tyler Van Leuven: Yeah, for myself, I'm the total opposite of Jim. I'm next year. I'll have. All three of mine in high school, so I'll have a senior, a sophomore, and a freshman. So, I'm excited about getting them out of the house. I mean, I love them to death. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love them to death, and they know that, but it 


Richard James: Well, Tyler we're recording this today and Michael and Justin were out of the house at really young age. Justin left at 18 and and moved to New York City by the time he was 19. And [00:25:00] then he came back in the last year and he wanted to save up a bunch of dough. And we've watched him radically mature in the last year. And now he's working in the firm too. And he's doing amazing things, He, even though he's professionally trained as a musician he's become an incredible salesperson for us. And that's good. It's good for us, it's good for him. Cause he can actually save up some dough. But it just happens that he's decided with the dough he saved, he wants to go on a bit of a walkabout. So he's going to travel to west coast. then he's going to upper northwest and spending some time there and then meandering literally around the country over the next three months. And today is the day that he's leaving the house. And we are empty nesters now for the second time. And I will tell you that Maria is not taking it very well. She had, you know, they left, we overcame it. We were empty nesters went through the, you know, whatever that grief cycle is. and they were gone and all [00:26:00] was good. And we had our house back. And at some point we're like, Ooh, that's great. There's nobody here. And then he came back and now he's leaving after being here almost a year and she's struggling with it a little bit today. So there's, there's bittersweet watching them go. But it's very exciting to be able to have your freedom back. I do, I have a side question for those that are listening that maybe, Are considering going out on their own and they think they, they need to have a partner, want to have a partner. How has the partnership worked for the two of you? And I know it works well, cause I, see you interact all the time. How, I guess the better question is how do you make it work so well? Cause not all partnerships do work all that well. 


Tyler Van Leuven: We're basically like brothers. So, I mean, we've been, Jim, see me go through many seasons of life already. He's been through some awful girlfriends, my wife, children. I remember his children were little and coaching soccer and, you know, we, he's basically like a brother because I don't have a brother and I've got 2 younger sisters. So, it's basically like a brother. So, 


MPS: So, [00:27:00] you know, I have 


Tyler Van Leuven: sometimes we have disagreements, 


Richard James: Yeah. Brothers fight, 


Tyler Van Leuven: I think our personalities compliment each other. I think they always have, I mean, areas that I'm stronger in and he may be not as strong and vice versa. So that's my take on it. I don't know how Jim feels about it, but I would assume it's kind of similar. 


Richard James: Well, Jim, here's your chance. 


Jim Sorenson: yeah, it is it is similar I think what I would say is, you know It's like any other relationship you have to value the difference You know, Tyler and I aren't the same person. We have some similar interest. We Enjoy similar things. We enjoy hanging out. But, you know, just like my wife, my wife and I are very different in a lot of ways. Tyler and I are very different. And so, you know, I don't know that I would want to be partners with someone just like me. I wouldn't want to be married to someone just like me. And, but you have to recognize that because sometimes the difference does frustrate people. [00:28:00] And, and sometimes that leads to frustrations and I'm sure there's times I frustrate Tyler. There's times Tyler frustrates me, but I think we do see the value each brings to the table and how those differences Help make us stronger. 


Richard James: parting piece of advice from anybody that, and if you wanted to give your contact information, if anybody had any questions for you, but so I'd say one parting piece of advice for that attorney who's listening out there that might be frustrated, wondering what, they got themselves into. And if if they want to be able to contact you, how would they do that? 


Jim Sorenson: Yeah, so, the parting piece of advice I would give is you know You've got to work on that mindset. You've got to work on that mindset You've got to realize that you're a business owner first if you own the firm, you're a business owner first You're a lawyer second I know that's different than the, what we hear a lot in the legal world. And if someone wants to reach out to me I'm happy to interact with them or help them or, share with them more about our journey [00:29:00] and what has worked and hasn't worked. I can be reached at Jim Jim at svllaw.com, svllaw.com. 


MPS: Awesome. Thanks, Tyler. 


Tyler Van Leuven: I think along the same lines with what Jim was saying, you gotta also be willing to make the hard decisions. And it will put you in a very uncomfortable place, but, you know, nobody likes them, but you just gotta do it. I mean, that's, the reality of business. And it's not because you're a hateful or spiteful person. It's just that you have to make this, make decisions for the business that you would, wouldn't want to do, but are necessary in order to move the business forward for the good of everybody, all of our employees, so. and my, uh, email is Tyler at svllaw.com. 


Richard James: Cool. But yeah, I, had to make one of those decisions today. So I understand. Uh, they're uncomfortable, but they are, this is the job we chose. So we'd better get good at making difficult decisions because our job is to [00:30:00] mitigate risk or manage risk. MPS, where do you where do you want to go from here? 


MPS: Well, Tyler, Jim, I just want to thank both of you for taking the time to be on today. This, this was good, and And I really enjoyed the conversation, especially around mindset because I think it's so, so important and under discussed. And so I appreciate you guys doing that and to the law firm owners listening. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen in. There was plenty of information to pull from today. So show Jim and Tyler some love down in the comments and hit that subscribe or follow button depending on where you're listening or watching. But Jim, Tyler, thank you very much for being on today. 


Tyler Van Leuven: Thank you 


Jim Sorenson: Thank you for having us. 


Richard James: Yeah. Jim and Tyler value bombs all the way around. If I can get the attorneys that are listening to this, or if they could be convinced by listening to you to change their mindset from being a an attorney to being a business owner, if they own their own law firm, that is a massive win. Thank you so much for sharing that today. I appreciate both of you. Thanks for all you do for us. And if there's anything we can ever do for you, we're here for you.

Jim Sorenson: Appreciate it. 


Tyler Van Leuven: Thank you. 


[00:31:00]