Welcome to episode 196 of the Business Development Podcast.

And today it is my absolute pleasure to bring you the job father himself, Jermaine Murray, a man who is making waves in Canada's recruitment industry.

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Welcome to the Business Development Podcast.

And now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Hello.

Welcome to episode 196 of the Business Development Podcast and today we have an absolutely amazing, amazing Canadian to introduce you to.

Today we're chatting with Jermaine Murray.

Jermaine is a dynamic leader and the visionary founder of Jupiter hr where he has revolutionized the hiring landscape for black professionals in the tech industry.

Since 2015, Jermaine has facilitated the hiring of over 397 Black tech professionals and created a thriving online talent community of over 10,000 members.

His strategic partnership with industry giants like Shopify, wealth simple and Spotify have empowered countless individuals through innovative job search workshops.

Additionally, Germaine's successful Twitter campaigns have garnered over 1 million impressions monthly, further amplifying his impact on the tech recruitment sector.

His dedication to talent advocacy, CV writing, interview preparation and career consulting has made him a sought after expert, particularly for candidates in video production, marketing, sales and it's beyond Jupiter HR.

Jermaine is an influential course instructor for CNBC's Make it guiding individuals to ace their interviews and secure their dream jobs.

His diverse experience spans roles as senior recruitment consultant, columnist and board member for various esteemed organizations.

Germain's leadership skills and commitment to diversity and inclusion have been the driving forces behind his success, making him a trailblazer in the recruitment industry.

With a proven track record of transforming job seekers into hired professionals and a passion for fostering equitable opportunities, Jermaine is not just a recruiter, he is a game changer in the tech world.

And Jermaine, it is an honor to have you on the show today.

Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate it.

Kelly.

Yo, that was a.

That was an intro thank you, thank.

You, thank you for coming to us all the way from Spain today.

We chatted about this before the show, but Jermaine's been staying in Spain and he's going to be there for a year.

And man, what an adventure.

That's so cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, you know, shout outs to, to my partner.

She's, she's brilliant and she hit me with the whole.

One day, she just hit me out of l.

Hey, would you like to move to Spain with me?

And I said, yeah, sure, why not?

And my thinking was, you know what?

I'll leave it up to fate.

If, you know, if we get the visa, then it's a yes, go with it.

If we don't, then I'm a chill in Toronto.

And then we got the visa and I was like, ah, okay, this is, this is happening.

All right, let's go.

And I've been out here since December and it's, it's been a great experience.

Wow.

First off, like, so cool, Like, I can't imagine.

I would love to see Spain.

I can't wait one day.

I'm going to travel, I promise.

We talked about this before the show.

I have, like, barely left North America ever.

So it's kind of one of those things where it's like, it's ambitions for my future someday.

Hey, man, I'm here for it.

I fully encourage the traveling that, that it will actually, like, change your life, I bet.

But what has it been like, you know, like, you have a successful company.

Was that not a little bit scary to just be like, okay, like, I'm just going to move to Spain for a year and still operate my company and all, like, is not like, whoa, Nah.

To be honest with you, a lot of, like, a lot of the work that I've been doing has always primarily online.

And so, like, and then even, like, prior to, like, my, My partner and I are very passionate about traveling.

Like, before, before Spain, we have this, like, little joke that, like, the pandemic, particularly the pandemic, like, locked in, locked her up and prevented her from traveling.

So, like, she had to go get it back in blood.

And we were like, hopping to different countries.

We were fortunate enough to be both working at places that allowed us to, like, you know, have the ability to work remotely.

So, like, we did like, we did like a month in Mexico, we did a few weeks in Italy, we did a few weeks in Greece, a few weeks in Spain.

It was just like, different, different, different time zones.

Just getting used to that.

So being able to like, with like most of my work being online, it was just a matter of like making sure that the time zone alignment worked.

And I think one of the things I enjoy the most about working from Europe is that there is a six, seven hour time difference with back home.

So it's almost like I've been able to live in like two different worlds at the same time.

And like, you know, I get up, I'm able to go and I'm able to work out and I'm able to like, you know, grab a smoothie, chill a little bit, you know, catch up on some Dragon Ball Z.

And then my work day starts at like 5:36.

Right.

I have late, I have late ish nights of course, but like it's, it's, it's actually been like really good and like a lot easier than I first anticipated.

What time is it for you right now?

10:21Pm oh dude, you're a rock star.

It is 2:21 for me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now you good?

You good?

You good?

You good?

You good?

Oh man.

Yeah, it's, it's crazy to think like, you know, what the Internet has done.

Like the fact that we can even have this conversation, that people even have the opportunity to work remotely, like, exactly.

It just blows my mind a little bit.

What, like, how much has happened in such a short period of time.

Yeah, it's, it's crazy too.

Like, you know, when you think about like the, you know, being kids, like being kid people that grew up in the 90s and the 2000s, when you think about like I think about the phrase surf the web a lot and like, you know, how only, only like really old people like use it or like even when you were growing up, your parents would say, oh, you're surfing the web.

And it would sound like the corporate accordions, old people thing.

And now like, you know, and at the time it was like surfing the web was just like what, a couple of message boards or something.

But like the movies and like the, the programming always had the Internet look like this place of like freedom or like this place of like expression.

And in a way like, you know, things have changed, things have been restricted, but it's still kind of freeing in that aspect because like at the end of the day it's all like one big way of communicating with one another.

And that's, that's, that's why we're able to kind of build off of that foundation.

Well, you know, and I don't know how old you are, but I'm 35.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm.

I'm.

When you hit your 30s, you stop counting.

Actually.

Yeah, it's like it doesn't matter anymore.

Yeah.

Because it's like it was.

It was, it was easy, it was easier.

Like 10, like, like 10 years ago where I'm like, oh, it's 2010.

That means I'm 20.

So I am 23.

And I.

Sorry, I'm 33.

Okay.

November.

You look amazing for 23.

Oh, dude.

Yeah, it's crazy.

I read a thing the other day and it was kind of like, really eye opening.

And me and you are from a weird in between generation.

Right?

Like, we live in two worlds.

We lived in the world before the Internet.

Yeah.

And before cell phones and before tech, and yet we also live in the world with all those things and still know how to use them.

And they were talking about how, like, there needs to be more leaders from our generation because we've seen it from both sides.

And, you know, like, Gen Z is a little too young to understand that world and Gen X doesn't know what they're doing.

So it's like, hey, millennials, we need to do more leadership because we actually have experienced so much.

And it's like, I can't.

I can't even believe sometimes how much the world has changed since, like, me and you were like 10 years old.

Like, it's a completely different world.

Yeah, I think about Napster all the time.

And I think about, like, how revolutionary Napster was, you know, to be able to just play music off of your computer and not having to go to HMV or Sunrise to buy a CD and then see and then be like, oh, this can't be legal.

And, like, the record label is going, this is not legal.

Killing Napster and then seeing Spotify, like, a good 10, 15 years later rise up from the ashes and be like, all right.

Like, the record labels made their own version of Napster.

Like, here it is.

And it's like things happen in cycles that it's.

It's actually hilarious.

But, like, yeah, we've.

We've seen it.

We've seen it rise, you know, fall.

We've seen it change.

We've.

We understand the nuances in it.

My mom still looks at me at, like, as some sort of, like, technical genius.

Whenever I, like, I plug out her rotor and, like, plug it back in.

You know what I'm saying?

And she's just like, magic.

How did you do that?

And it's just like, some things never change.

I'll be honest, dude.

Like, I'M a little bit afraid of that because technology is changing so quickly.

And I even find myself right now at 35, being like, oh, I don't know if I want to really learn the, like, the latest and greatest.

And, like, my kids, they love Fortnite.

I'm like, I can't even play this game.

And it's like, oh, my God.

Like, am I admitting I can't play a video game?

Like, Kelly, come on.

Yeah, yeah.

It's crazy, dude.

Like, I didn't understand it, but now I'm getting to the age where it's like, oh, boy.

I don't want to end up like my mom or like my dad, where it's like, I don't even want to touch the new stuff.

So it's like I'm trying to challenge myself to take on all these new things, but realizing, like, okay, like, it's a real thing.

Like, there's gonna come a point where you have to make a conscious decision that you were gonna keep up with tech.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was pretty much me.

And, like, tick tock.

Like, tick tock and Snapchat, right?

Fortnite.

All.

All these new things, and it's like.

Like, I'm like, damn.

I realized that, like, if I don't, like, make that, like, if I don't brain to do it, I'm definitely going to be left behind.

So, like, I try to be a bit more intentional, and I try to, like, make sure that, like, whatever technologies, I'm like, you know, I'm like, my brain speed.

My brain can only take so much before it just goes, like, all right, time for a nap.

Yeah.

And, like, I shut down.

You know, I think it's not.

It's not uncommon for me to, like, fall asleep at my desk because of just.

I'm overworked or because it's just too much.

So, like, I'm very.

I.

I'll explore and research different technologies and tools, and I'll see what I can do with them and see what the value is.

And then I'll make a decision on whether or not to incorporate that into, like, my quote unquote tech stack, which is, like, I've been doing with, like, some AI tools.

But, yeah, at a certain point, you just.

You just can't keep up.

Yeah.

Yeah, you really.

You really can't.

And I would say, like, AI is a great example of that.

Like, it's changing so quickly.

There's, like, a new, latest, greatest AI program every single week.

And I've talked to so many people, I'M like, how do you know one?

It's like you don't just try.

You have to try them and see if they work for you.

And if they do great.

If they don't, don't.

And if something better comes along, replace it.

Right?

But like, that's like the level.

And especially in podcasting, like, that's the level of like AI that we're playing.

And it's like, you got to try it, see if it works, if it works great.

If it doesn't, no biggie.

The biggest problem that I see with the AI side is that every program is trying to incorporate a whole bunch of features so they can be that one program.

The rule of them.

All right?

But usually the things that it's incorporating in don't work as well as like the, the AIs that were dedicated to that one thing.

And so, yeah, it sucks.

It's like, it's like, I would love it if there was just one AI program that worked well for everything podcasting.

But the reality is I'm still using like four or five.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that's like, that's, that just, that's like the toe.

Like that's like technology and like crashing into like capitalism.

Right?

First there's the idea, then there's a popularity, and then there's somebody saying, hey, it would be great if we were like the infrastructure for that where everybody has to come to us for that.

And like, for example, like, I remember when YouTube first launched in like 06 and it was like, it was the way, it was like revolutionary because you were able to like stream shows.

I remember streaming like anime before they like cracked down on like, hey, that's illegal.

You can't do that.

And like we would be watching a episode of Naruto as 30 minutes into like 3, 10, 12 minute chunks, right?

Because you're trying to, you're trying to, you're trying to bypass the censorship and everything.

And then, then people started putting uploading music to YouTube and like YouTube tried to be like this whole media conglomerate and like, it has like some different levels of success with that.

But like, you always gotta like, understand what you're like, your actual like, niche and what your footing is to really like build off of that.

And some things work, some things don't.

But yeah, we're in that little gray space right now with, with, with AI where it's just like trying to figure out what works and what doesn't and what captures the mainstream attention.

Totally, totally.

And, and it really is trial and error.

Like, I have people ask me all the time, like, what are you using?

And I'm like, well, just because it works for me doesn't mean it works for you.

But this is what I'm using.

But try your own things, right?

Because I don't know, it's like, one thing that works well for somebody is not going to work well for somebody else.

So it's like, you really do have to trial it.

And.

And, you know, I would say always evaluate, because, you know, some of these programs, eventually one of them is going to get it right.

And the thing that works, it'll do multiple things well.

And when that happens, it'll be a great value.

But we're definitely not there yet.

I know.

Like I said, with podcasting, I'm probably using, like, four or five different types of AIs to create my show and do everything I need to do, because none of them do everything well.

Yeah, exactly.

But we live in a weird time, right?

Like, that's kind of where we're at as entrepreneurs, is that we're navigating.

We're navigating technology and a time that, frankly, we should be thankful because I think there's so many great things about being an entrepreneur right now.

But understand that we're all also charting new territory.

And you have to be careful, but you also have to be willing to take a risk.

I agree.

I think that is.

That's the essence of entrepreneurship, right?

I worked at, like, shortly, in.

Before and in the pandemic, I worked for a incubator in Montreal, and I moved from Toronto to Montreal for this job.

And I didn't know anybody in Montreal, had never been to Montreal, but I was like, hey, yo, you know, hustlers all the time entrepreneur.

You know, you just.

You just.

You just, like, if you.

If you dip a toe in, you're not going to really experience it.

It's just.

Just throw the whole.

Just throw your whole self into it.

And I.

I was surprised at, like, how haphazard the process of entrepreneurship was.

And, like, despite the fact I was working with people like PhDs and whatnot, I was like, despite the fact that these.

These.

These people have PhDs, nobody knows what the hell they're actually doing.

Like, they had an idea.

They.

They worked on the idea, and they got as far as they could with that initial thought, and they're like, all right, now what?

And it's like, every day is a new.

Is a new way to, like, answer that now what question?

Until that new answer, that new problem comes up that you're like, I got some direction.

I could work towards that.

I could work towards solving that.

And then when I get there, I'm going to be stuck with that damn question again.

Now what?

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I find, like, on my entrepreneurial journey, nothing has turned out exactly how I planned it, like, zero.

But amazing things have happened that I never saw coming, like this show, right?

Like, I wasn't even remotely thinking about doing a podcast when I started Capital Business Development.

But then the opportunity came along, and I took it, and thank God I did, because it's been so much fun.

I get to meet amazing people.

I get to do so much with it.

But the way that I see it, as an entrepreneur, you never see the future.

You can plan, and you can have all the plans in the world, but life is going to throw at you what life is going to throw at you.

So I think what's more important than having this perfect plan that you're going to follow to a table is being open and available when that inevitably great opportunity falls on your lap, because that's more likely to happen than your plan going exactly to plan.

Yeah, I agree.

It's like being prepared, developing your skills through trial and error.

Right?

And then recognizing when that opportunity to strike comes.

Right.

And not missing your moment.

And sometimes part of your learning process is missing your moment, but it is super unpredictable.

Like, my mom always had this saying.

She's like, if you ever want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

And, like, I literally feel like that is.

That is like entrepreneurship.

Sometimes.

Sometimes I think, like, my superpower is too late.

Like, I always feel like I'm too late for things.

And, like, I don't.

Yeah, I don't move on, like, my own time.

And it's like, there are a lot of things where I.

I feel like I saw it coming, but I didn't act on it.

And then I like.

And then I have to have the conversation of whether or not it's worth putting energy into it.

And then I realized, like, I feel like I'm too late, but, like, it used to be something that I would use as an indictment against myself, but I think it's become more of, like, a superpower because I realized that, like, that's my own process.

That's my learning process.

My learning process is.

I think what I really like about entrepreneurship is that my learning process, it feels represented here where, like, I was never, like, that quick, like, prodigy kid.

I wish I was where, you know, you know, you know, some people that, like, they pick up something and they're great at it for once.

And it's like, nah, I'm the slow learner in the back of the class that has to stay back after class and do the extra work.

And like, you don't see the work, but one day, like out of nowhere, you're like, yo, when did you get so good?

And I'm like, yo, yeah, you know what I'm saying?

That's just, that's how I've been.

But like, really, if you had like a little montage, it's like hours and hours and hours of just failure compounding until I found a way to learn from the failures and then, you know, spring up and turn those into successes until the success turns into a failure again.

And I'm back at that learning process.

But it's not, it's not failure.

It's.

It's all a learning process thing, right?

Totally, Totally.

And I look back at like, my like, school experience and I wasn't a good student, dude.

Like, I, I was there to have fun.

Like, it's funny because I look back now and I was a pretty crappy student.

But I've been an amazing worker and entrepreneur.

Like, when it was my self motivation, when it was my business, my baby, my, my word on the line, right then it was like, okay, I'm in.

Like, that's what I needed.

I needed that pressure.

I needed it to be my win.

And when it was my win, I could give my all to it.

But like, yeah, I was not good at school neither.

Neither was I.

I think the most annoying thing was a parent.

Teacher interviews and my parents, My teacher's always going to my mom.

He has so much potential if he just like, focused and then trying to explain to a Jamaican woman, Jamaican mother, that you're, that you find school boring is a, is, is, is an uphill battle.

It's like, it's literally ice skating uphill, right?

You, you, you cannot win.

Especially if she sees that you're into something.

Like, my mom used to get on my.

I love video games, right?

You know, my mom used to get on my case.

She'd be like, if you knew your books the same way you knew your combos, you'd be a genius.

And it's just, it's like, yo, that's like, that's not how that works.

Like, like, I wish I could, but, like, that shit's boring.

And you know, I come to realize that, like, I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, for like a lot of successful ones.

So, like, when I was at that incubator.

I realized the thing that, the thing about that specific incubator that kind of like opened my eyes about like entrepreneurship was that there are the bad entrepreneurs are the ones that, the ones that, the entrepreneurs that don't succeed are the ones that get into it for money.

And the entrepreneurs that succeed and be and go on to be great are people that saw a problem and either they became so obsessed with the problem that they had to do something about it, or they saw a solution and they believed within their heart of hearts that this was the solution to solve that problem and they wouldn't give up on it.

And I feel like that's, that in its essence what really makes an entrepreneur like you, you see that, you see that problem and you want to solve it, become solution oriented.

And you, you, it's almost like a North Star, like a guiding light, because you never get lost.

Because as long as that problem, as long as you can focus in on that problem, you can build the solutions around it.

And what solutions work you keep and what, what don't you throw to the wayside.

Yeah, yeah, no kidding.

And like, dude, you were so young when you started Jupiter hr.

Like, first off, congratulations.

Like, I wish that I was as driven and motivated as you at that age.

Like, like, what is it?

It's almost 10 years at this point since you launched Jupiter, right?

2015.

Yeah, yeah.

So you were, you were 23.

25.

25, sorry.

25, yeah.

So that's just like absolutely bonkers, man.

Like, I didn't start capital until I was 30.

I think, I think I incorporated it like my 30th birthday.

And I was like, hey.

But like, the funny thing was, is like, I wasn't prepared, I can tell you right now, I was not prepared to be an entrepreneur until 30.

And even then I'm not sure that I was completely prepared.

I had, I had some hard lessons and some life learning to do at that point.

Right.

And it's like, I just see people like you who are so successful and first off, like, congratulations on your success.

Congratulations on Jupiter.

Like, you've accomplished so much Forbes.

Like, you've done so, so much for your age.

And yeah, man, I just like, I, I, I very, I, I very much admire entrepreneurs like yourself who, who have done so much and frankly still have so much to do.

I, man, I appreciate that.

I promise you though, it, it did not feel or it was not never, it wasn't that way.

Like, even the way that the business started was like an accident to Be real with you.

Like, I went to school for radio broadcasting.

I, ironically, as I say this to God on the podcast, and I, I was like, when I graduated, I legitimately thought I was gonna be the black Larry King.

Like, that's, you know, I want.

At first, I wanted to be an actor.

My mom was like, I'm.

My mom and dad were like, weird.

Not.

We are not paying thousands of dollars for you to go to school to be an actor.

You, you, you can go for something else.

You can do acting on the side, right?

But, like, no.

So, like, I thought, like, all right, you know, I'll become famous like Larry King, and then I'll just be able to, like, transition over to acting.

And I graduated and I had the hardest time getting a job.

And I remember I had about 750, maybe $800 in my bank account, and I went to a resume writer in Scarborough, and I had about six months of internship experiences at a rate at radio stations.

And I paid this person $694.54.

Not that I'm counting, but hey, to do the, to do the resume.

And they gave me a six page resume.

And like, you have to understand how desperate I was for a job at this point.

I, I tried everything.

I was exhausted.

So they handed me a six page resume.

I'm like, all right, this is cool.

And I got in my car, and if anyone's from Toronto is listening, the.

The resume writer was at Markham and Ellesmere, and down the street at Markham and 401 was the TSN CTV building.

It's still there.

So I drove straight to there and.

Because, like, my dad was like, hey, you're applying online.

You know, back in my day, I would have just walked in and just handed them the resume.

That's.

That's.

Yeah, that's what you want to do if you want to get shit done, right?

Yeah.

So, like, at a certain point, things aren't working.

So I was like, all right, what got to lose?

So I drove to.

To tsn.

I walk in and the receptionist was a nice Jamaican black lady.

And she asked, she's like, how can I help you?

And I just put my resume down and I remember it made like a clunk sound on the desk.

It was six pages.

And I was like, I'm here for a job.

And she's like, what job?

I was like, I don't know, but here's my resume.

And then she.

I remember she.

She took the resume up and she like flipped through it, and then she was like, if you Had a hundred thousand things to do and someone came into your office and not only had no idea what jobs you had available, but gave you a mini book to read.

Would you want to read that?

And I was just there, dumbfounded, right?

And in my head, my head is like, say yes, just say yes.

And my heart was like, nah.

And I was like, no.

And then she's like, all right, here you go.

And I sat in my car and I was like, would I want to read this?

And I'm like, no, it's six, six freaking pages.

Like I wouldn't want to read this.

So that day I went and I like studied up on everything I could when it came to like making a good resume.

And I focused on if I focus on like an empathetic journey.

I was like, if I was the person sitting across from me, what would I need to see on this piece of paper that would entice me to read it but also be like, hey, Jermaine is exactly who I want for this job.

And then I wrote my first resume, my first real resume myself from that aspect and I submitted that and I started getting calls to like jobs.

And it became like a running joke where I'd be chilling with my friends and like we would actually start betting.

We'd like, we'd open up indeed on my PlayStation 3 with like the web browser and we start making bets on whether or not I would get a call back based on my resume for this job.

And more often than not I was getting callbacks on the resume.

And then so my friends were like, yo, make us resumes, get us jobs.

Made them resumes.

They all got their grown up jobs from that, from those resumes.

And then it started being like, people started coming out to me asking me to make the resumes.

And that's kind of like how Jupiter HR was born.

But like it was still, it was still like a part time thing.

I really wasn't paying too much attention.

It was just good for like side money, for gas money as my dad would would used to say.

And it became a thing when I got into actual like recruitment probably like in like 2018.

And it became a thing where I use the experience there from resume writing and interview prepping to get my first recruitment job.

And then in my, as a recruiter I, I noticed that people that look like me weren't getting opportunities.

And so I started advocating for people that look like me.

And then I started getting in trouble at work because yeah, I had, I've had so many managers.

My, the first One that stood out to me, though, was, like, I had a manager.

I was working at an agency, and a manager, literally, we would have these morning meetings, and she would want to know the candidates that we were putting forward for jobs to send to the.

To our clients.

And I put this person through who I met at a networking event, and I had, like, a WhatsApp group with black people.

And we're like, I'm, like, sharing the jobs, and that's how I got most of my candidates.

And I'm, Yeah, pretty successful.

Like, it was.

It was January 2019.

And so, like, recruiters are basically judged on the revenue that they bring.

And, like, a good year for a recruiter is to bring, like, 150, $160,000 throughout the whole entire year.

And in January alone, I grossed, like, $260,000.

Right, just by throwing black candidates.

So I put this black candidate, and it was a person with a Nigerian name.

And so, like, I remember my manager being upset.

She put the.

Put the paper down, and she took me into the cafeteria, into the lunchroom, asked everybody to leave, and it was just me and her.

And she was just like, you can't be the only black recruiter on the team, and the only people you're putting forward are black people.

And then I flipped, and I was like, you need to ask why the only black candidates you're seeing are coming from the black guy.

And then she looked at me, and I was like, yo, like, you can't overrepresent for an underrepresented group.

And then I got written up.

I was just like, all right, it's time to leave this job.

And I left.

I left.

I went to another employer, tried the same thing, kept getting into the.

Into the same.

Into the same drama.

So I realized that I could just do my advocacy through Jupiter hr.

And, you know, if I.

If it's totally disconnected, they can't get mad at me.

And if it so happens that, like, it also enables me to be better at my job, they.

They can't get mad at me.

So it was.

It started out as just a way for me to, like, address a problem that, like, was just, quite frankly, pissing me off.

Right?

It was just.

It was just so annoying not seeing people that look like me for, like, for opportunities that were, like, literally life changing.

And eventually it grew to, like.

It grew to.

I started taking to social media, and my whole idea was like, I'm just gonna make the whole job search thing as transparent as possible.

One of the first threads that I made that went viral was a dissection of like LinkedIn showing people what LinkedIn look like from the recruiter's point of view and how they could optimize their profiles to attract more recruiters.

Yeah.

And things kind of just took off from there and eventually that job I had in Montreal at that incubator, Jupiter, HR was taking up more time than my full time job and I started getting trouble at the full time job.

Right.

Because like my, I was so distracted.

And it eventually grew to be like its own thing to where I was able to just do it full time.

And like, yeah, it was, it was a vehicle for me to like, address a problem that, like.

Because, like, I don't know, it's like sometimes it's like, what do you do, what do you do when there's, what do you do when there's a problem and there's nothing that you can do?

Yeah, you just do what you can.

Right.

And that was my way of doing what I could.

Wow.

Wow, man.

Like, I've experienced some pretty interesting things in my, in my time in business development as well.

I've.

I've actually, I was in a meeting once with a pipeline company and I worked for a company that, that hired quite a few East Indian people.

Obviously we're in Canada.

It's a very diverse place, right?

Like, very diverse.

And I remember being in a meeting one time and saying, like, hey, like, would you guys consider, you know, our company, our employees?

And the guy pulled me into a room, shut the door, and he said, under no circumstances will we hire any East Indians from your company.

He's like, obviously, I will never say this, I will never say this in public.

But they won't.

This is, this was the guy's words.

They won't fit in here.

And I was like, are you kidding me?

Like, where do you think you live?

But it's like, I think there's a lot of people who think that, you know, that Canada is completely equal, that, you know, like, we've got it all figured out and that's just not the case.

Yeah, it's.

I've had clients say to me, hey, can you, can you give us candidates without any funny names?

And it's just like, what does that mean?

Yeah, what does that mean?

Like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, what is, what do you mean by that?

What do you, what do you mean by that?

But like, yeah, yeah, it's.

I think it's just the reality of people and like, you get, you have some really, like, good people, right?

That don't see color, that don't see race, or just like, even if they do, they understand the.

The context behind privileges and context behind underrepresentation, and they try their best to be allies.

And then you got people that, you know, the thing is, no one sees itself as a bad guy.

So ironically, I think that person that pulled you aside, they, like, in some strange case, they might.

In some strange way, they might have thought that they're.

They're protecting people.

Right.

But they don't realize that they're, like, they're, you know, entertaining evil or they're entertaining, like, discrimination.

Because nobody, anyone that, like, there's only been like, a few times in my life where I've ever seen someone proud, like, proudly say that they're a racist.

And everyone that has done, like, racist things, like, like, if they don't, they don't.

Like, they, even though they did it, if you painted it in a way where they saw the discrimination, they kind of would feel away about themselves.

Right.

They might regress to the norm shortly after.

But, like, you know, no one wants to be, like, outright the bad guy.

Yeah, I was shocked, like, and, you know, like, I'd never.

For me.

And I'd never experienced that before.

That was my first, like, real experience of racism.

Outwards.

Outward racism.

And it was like, it was very surprising.

And I know, like, I live in Alberta, like, it's oil and gas country, but I'd never had somebody pull me aside and straight up tell me, I will not.

We will not hire your people, you know, because of their name or because of their.

It was very surprising.

And.

Yeah.

And, you know, like, obviously, like, I'm a white guy.

It's not something that I can even understand.

And so I think we have to come to the table recognizing that we don't understand.

And we have to.

We have to, because we don't understand.

We have to be willing to have that conversation and to realize that there may be a bias there.

Yeah.

And I think that's the first step of the allyship too, though.

It's like, even.

Not even just from like, a race standpoint too, but from like, a gender standpoint as, like, two men.

Right.

And I'm.

I'm a heterosexual male.

And like, even then I have privilege because, like, a lot of people that are, like, identify as otherwise are discriminated against.

And like, you know, it's.

That's when you have to, like, use the space that you occupy to advocate for others.

Because at the end of the day, like, we're all, we're all people.

And like, the people a lot of, like, unfortunately, like, a lot of people that are, that have power wield it in ways that are detrimental to us as like, a society.

So, like, you know, it's, it's times like that where you have to, like, kind of lean into what you can do.

And like I said, like, you can't solve everything, but if you can't let something go on, you got to do what you can do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And like, I wonder how much of it, how much of it people don't even realize that it, like, that it's happening in their organizations, right?

Like, talking to, like, CEOs that have, you know, a whole bunch of people working for them.

How can they implement strategies that make sure that that bias isn't happening?

Like in your.

Obviously, obviously you could hire from Jupiter hr, right?

Like, that could be one of the avenues that you take.

But, like, how can we, how can we do better with regards to systemic racism within corporations, in your opinion?

Jermaine?

I think it, think it, it comes down to, like, buy in from leadership, but, like, genuine buy in.

So, like, prior to settling on, like, going to, like, school for broadcasting, I considered going into law and I took a couple of law courses.

And one of the things, for one of the things that always stood out to me was a term mens rea and actus rea, the guilty act and the guilty mind, right?

The difference between murder one and manslaughter, right?

You could hit somebody with your car, and if it's an accident, it's manslaughter because it's a, it's a guilty act.

But if you sit and you premeditate to kill somebody and you do it, it's a guilty act plus a guilty mind.

And if you get caught planning it, it's a guilty mind lacking the guilty act, right?

So it comes down to, like, when leadership do their buy in.

And this is kind of like controversy that happened during the George Floyd situation where you had a bunch of companies, like, putting together these initiatives to support black people.

But, like, they weren't doing it because they realized they had an unconscious bias.

So they weren't doing it because, like, they realized that, like, you know, there is, like, a guilty mind at play here.

They did it because they were copycatting the people that were doing it, and they realized that it was a smart business move to do.

And that's why a lot of the programs have evaporated as like DEI has become less and less of, like, a hot topic.

Or a topic that really, like, moves and inspires people.

So it comes from leader, comes from buying from leadership, but not because they're willing to do the.

Not because they're willing to sanction or like, you know, you know, advance the actions, but because they genuinely have.

They genuinely have an understanding of the limitations that happens when you don't invest in such programs and like, the morale you're destroying among your employees when you don't, when you don't stand up, when you don't say things, when you don't, you know, make an effort to show that you are in that space of allyship.

Those, when those things, when that, when that mind aspect isn't there, those positive actions that happening that you do, they have a short.

They have a short lifespan.

They have a short shelf life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, you know, we're both in Canada, and one of the things that I've seen really change in the last, like, let's call it five years is indigenous relations.

So you're seeing, like, a very consorted effort from companies, from governments to make sure that more indigenous groups are, Are, are being included, that they're being represented, that they're getting their fair deal with regards to their, their allyship with corporations.

Right.

But I don't know, like, is it kind of feels like we've picked one minority and said, like, okay, we're good.

We'll.

We'll help them.

But, like, is it.

Does it seem reasonable to help one minority and, and not do the same thing for the rest?

I think things have to happen in stages, to be honest with you.

And like, I'm not, I'm not an expert and I'm not from the indigenous community.

But, like, even then I've always felt like, I like that there's a starting point, but I don't think it's actually enough because, like, I always had a problem with land acknowledgments because I'd be like, why don't you just, you know, just give the people back their land if that's the case?

You know, like, is.

Is the same way as like a black person, wherein, like, companies acknowledge the part they played in, like, slavery, and then they turn around and try to say, like, yeah, but we're not going to do.

We don't agree with reparations.

It's just like, you know, to quote George R.R.

martin from, like, you know, Game of Thrones, words are a wind.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, where's the actual action behind that?

So, like.

But everything has a Starting point.

Everything should happen in phases, as I say.

So, like, I would be like, I think the reality of just people is that it's always easier to focus on, like, one thing.

Like, we do have the capacity to focus on a lot of different things, but like, yeah, even like as entrepreneurs, you find that, like, people that are able to do a lot of different things, they tend to, like there's an African proverb, you know, if you, if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far, go together.

And basically I equate that is just like you, like, if you don't have like a, a single focus in mind, you, you can't gain any real momentum to like, speed through and then you add people to the puzzle because if you try to address everything all at once, you're not going to get far, you're not going to be effective.

Right.

So if the, if the mindset or if the shift is like, we focus on doing right by one community and when we get to a point where like, you know, things have.

Healing is well underway and like, things are a bit more right, and then we shift the focus and we take what we learn and that's kind of supporting that infrastructure and apply it to others and we keep going down the list, then like, yeah, I think, I think that would be a much better approach.

But in a lot of cases it just feels like we're doing like the spread aspect and it's just a lot of platitudes and words and the real action is like light behind them.

And again, that goes back to being like people within leadership and people having the opportunity, not understanding or not like doing the work to make that connection mentally.

Right.

But they see that there is some sort of value in doing the execution.

But, like, that can only take you so far if you don't have the total buy in.

Yeah, yeah.

Well.

And you know, like, one of the reasons that I really wanted to talk to you today is that I haven't had this conversation.

I haven't had anybody have this conversation on this show.

And for somebody like you to start a company like Jupiter HR and have a nice ambitious goal and you've got to be real close to placing your 500.

Yeah.

414.

Oh, my God.

Wow.

Okay, so, like, maybe this show, maybe this show's the one that gets you maybe, hopefully.

But like, frankly, like, that's still not enough.

Like 500 people doesn't seem like that much like we need to place like 5,000 people, you know, like, yeah, it seems like a Drop in the bucket.

But yet I've, like I said, I don't think I've ever seen a company like yours that says, you know what?

No, like, there's a problem here and we're going to do something about it.

Like, have you come across many companies like yours?

I wouldn't say many, but I do know that there's all.

There is a lot of people in the space that are doing really good work.

And like, I think, like, for me, like, I have, because I have that sales background, like, I have, I have like quotas like bred into me.

And like, if I don't have, like, like again, if I don't have something to focus on, it's it, There can be a lot of like, wasted energy.

So like, we, we're vocal with that quota, we're vocal with that number as a way to just keep us honest and on the path.

But like, like, and a lot, like, a lot of companies don't like, really like, focus on like numbers like that.

But like, that is, again, like, as an entrepreneur, that is what intrinsically, like, works to keep the train going.

Right?

But there are a lot of, there are some companies in the space that are doing some really good work.

There are a lot of really good leaders.

And like, I don't think that they're enough, to be honest, because it is a lot of work and it is a lot of history that we are working against and working to correct.

But like, I'm, I'm glad that I'm not the only person in the space that's doing this kind of work.

Especially because, like, like you said, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a big, it's a big number, but it's not a big number at the same time, you know what I'm saying?

Because, like, if you.

I remember like in 2021, the goal was to get 100 people jobs in tech.

We did 126.

And like, to get to that 126, I had to work with over 2, 000 black people.

Holy cow.

You know what I'm saying?

So like, that's like, that's why I agree with you.

It's not like, it's not really that big of a number because, like, it's a fraction of like the total engagements and total people that I know.

And you know what I'm saying?

Like, to get to do two, to do something 2, 000 times and only walk away with like 126, like wins, you know?

If you're like, if you're a basketball player and somebody goes, 1126 for 2000, you're like, yo, bench him.

Like, you know, say like, my gosh.

That is what is, like, what is the statistic for white people?

Do you know?

Do you know what?

Like, if it would have been the same amount, what do you think it would have been?

And I get that that's like, speculating.

But, yeah, so, like, I read this report, so the thing that actually, like, really, I want to say, quote, unquote, in a joking way radicalized me, was reading this report from tmu, which was formerly known as Ryerson University, called who are Tax Workers?

And in it they detailed that, like, 70% of tech roles were taken up by, like, white people and 30% were by people that were minorities.

And then it went to, like, further break down that, like, what that minority representation looked like.

And like, black people.

In Canada, we represented like, I think 12 or 13% of the population, but we only represented 3.9% of the tech industry.

And of that, we were also the lowest paid ethnic group as well.

And it attributed a lot of systemic factors, right?

It.

It's attributed and it also referenced to the burden of low expectations where, like, people have a perception of people of, like, black people.

And, like, it's easier for somebody to believe a black person is a janitor versus a doctor.

And like, that bleeds into, like, salary negotiations and what kind of offers black people are able to get and what opportunities are able to extend to them.

And that's what made me think about that manager I had that got upset that I was, you know, sending so many black people because it's just like, you know, it's an unconscious bias.

So, like, I think, I don't know, it's, it's, it's.

I think it would be a number that'd be 70% more just based on, like, what they sound like, that ratio.

But hey, I'm an English major.

I am not a math major.

So, yeah, my math may be completely off, but it's just me spitballing.

But like, you know, if, if the industry had like, 70, it's probably a bit lower now, but like, if, if it was 70 white and only like 3.9 black, I would think that the numbers would be, like, represented.

I actually, you know, what if I take 126 and I divide that by 2000, I wonder what that number is.

Zero point.

It's 6, 6.3%, right?

Yeah.

So, like, so like, even then, Scott.

You'Re double the standard.

Yeah, sure, great.

But like.

Pretty low.

So I would say, I would say it'd be considerably more, but like, I'm still super proud of the work that I've been able to do that we've been able to do.

And like, I think that, you know, right now things are a bit more politicized and like anti dei, but I think that, like, as, again, as an entrepreneur, I see a problem and I'm trying to make a solution to address the problem.

The bigger the problem, the bigger the solution.

But the bigger the solution, the more people I end up helping, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, like, at the end of the day, we're all here to do.

Do a job, to do something that frankly, is going to benefit society as a whole.

And it should be about who is the most qualified person, period.

Agreed.

Yeah.

And business, like, I don't get it because, you know, when I started capital, it's like business needs to be neutral, period.

Right.

It just does.

Like, at the end of the day, business should benefit everybody involved.

The buyers, the sellers, the workers, the employers.

Everybody should benefit from business.

And we need to.

We all need to aim to be more neutral when it comes to how we operate our organizations, period.

Yeah.

I would say, I would say to that, though, that I've never agreed with the phrase.

It's, you know, whenever you see, like, I'm gonna reference pirates of the Caribbean 3 where the, where the main antagonist is like, it's not.

It's not personal, it's business.

And in my.

I remember I was watching that with my dad and my dad was like, that makes no sense because, like, like, if I can't feed myself or my kids, like, it's because it's personal.

Like, it's.

That's pretty personal.

So it's like, you know, with business and one thing I learned about, like, entrepreneurship, especially working in like the VC space, I'm surprised.

I was surprised at how many deals get done over coffees, over beer, over social settings.

Like, I've heard of deals getting.

I've heard of people getting.

I heard about a guy getting funding because he spotted an investor in a.

In a gym before a bench press.

You know what I'm saying?

And it's like, yeah, it's like that social aspect of business where people, People, unless they absolutely have to, people will always choose to do business with somebody that they like.

Yes.

Right.

And like, even though, like you said, it should be neutral, it should be.

It should benefit both parties.

The end of the day, that emotional aspect Of I, only if I, if I have the choice, I will do business with people that I like.

Like that is, that is both, that is a double edged sword.

It works and it works for us and it works against us.

But like that is essentially it.

But like another thing that people, I think another thing that I always tell people, especially people that are like anti DEI or like throw the word woke at me, I always say like, you're misconstruing what like DEI and diversity really is because like nobody wants a handout.

Like nobody, like a lot of people in my community would turn down a handout on the strength of you just giving them an opportunity because they're black.

Right?

Yeah.

What we want is just a fair shot.

That's literally it.

You know what I'm saying?

And like I explained it, I played to a hiring manager once like this.

If on average black people are representative as 4% of the industry, you get a hundred resumes.

The math says that you will have four resumes in that group that are black.

If you know that you only have one job to fill.

Right.

And you might need five to 10 interviews.

Right.

What are the chances that you find 10 people that you want to hire who aren't black before you see your first resume from a black person?

From that four out of a hundred, right?

Yeah.

So what all DEI is doing is making sure that if you decide to make a call on who to interview, you at least saw the four resumes of the black people and you made, you were able to make a decision like, oh, this isn't the right, this isn't the person that has the skills that we're looking for.

Right.

And then we move on.

And like a lot of time our argument is there are a lot of people in our community that are just as good at that job and if you see their resume, you're going to want to meet them.

Yeah, yeah.

So walk me, like, walk me into it.

How, how does Jupiter HR work?

So we have two fronts.

We have the candidate experience front, the job seeker front, and then we have the corporation B2B front.

So the B2C aspect is a advocacy and a career coaching platform.

I leverage my social medias to talk about black issues, to talk about career aspects, career strategies, job seeking strategies, and also as a way to like refer people into jobs.

We do charge for like one on one coaching, like resume writing, but we give a lot of free resources anyway.

So I've always had like, you know, if someone's not able to like afford like the one to One or, like, the paid services we have, we have a free equivalent that they can leverage and they can use as and like to their own benefit.

And then we never charge for referrals.

Right, Referrals into, like, sometimes we have advocates and allies that want to, like, help with the mission and, like, they will leverage their own influence and, like, refer people into their corporation or their organizations, and we never charge for that.

And then on the B2B side, we do direct recruitment placement, but we also offer training and workshops to help train companies on, like, their HR team on how to not only engage and retain black talent, but, like, to actually go out and, like, source and search for that.

So there's, like, no real excuse.

Most recruiters will tell you that the best.

The best and most successful hires come from sourcing activities where you go out and you search for people to poach from jobs that are already working.

And we give them the tools on how to, like, make sure that they're able to incorporate those skills to identify black talent, and they can then go out and find black talent that is qualified for the jobs that they want.

So, again, where no one wants a handout, it's literally just a fair shot.

Right.

And there should be no excuses as to, like, why you're not able to have black people in your talent pipeline.

Of course, and you're working in Toronto.

However, like, are you able to service, like, all of Canada, potentially North America?

What are your service areas?

So we're global.

Be real with you.

Oh, amazing.

Well, I know you're in Spain, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I've helped people get.

I've helped black people get jobs in Japan.

Japan was the furthest.

Wow.

Japan and Germany, the uk, like, all over Europe, primarily.

A lot of the action happens in the United States and Canada.

But, like, yeah, like, I've.

We've had customers and clients and B2B and, like, businesses from all the way from, like, Japan and.

And Germany ask us for help.

I haven't been able to find a Spain.

A Spanish partner quite yet, but I blame it on the fact that my.

My Spanish sucks.

I'm sorry.

Duolingo, like, Duolingo's been hurt kind of.

I.

A dual lingo has been sending me some shady messages because she'd be like, yo, you haven't.

You haven't.

You haven't seen me in, like, two months.

What's going on?

I've just been busy.

So, like, dual lingo bird is on my ass.

But, like, yeah.

Oh, dude, no, this has been amazing.

Thank you so Much for coming on and chatting with us.

And not to mention, like, you know, we look at.

We look at followers in Canada a little different than the U.S.

like, the reality is you have 89,000 followers, and I'm sure to a lot of U.S.

people, it's not a big deal, but for Canadians, that's a huge, huge deal.

Dude, congratulations on growing your followers.

And.

And, you know, I mean, that's just on LinkedIn.

We're not even talking about Twitter or anywhere else.

You are.

So, yeah, I appreciate.

Amazing on your own personal branding, and I just want to congratulate you because that's not easy.

It is very hard, and you're killing it.

Thank you.

I appreciate that so much, Kelly.

I appreciate you.

Thank you for having me on, too.

Like, it's literally been.

I love talking.

So, like, it's been a pleasure, man.

Yeah, you too, dude.

And if people want to get a hold of you, they want to hire Jupiter hr.

What's the best way for them to do that?

You can hit me up on my website, JupiterHR.ca.

or you can message me on LinkedIn, Jermaine L.

Murray.

Or you can hit me up on Twitter, which is the Job Father, with two underscores.

If you.

If you want to know more about me, you could literally Google the Job Father and you'll see all, like, the articles, which I'm.

I'm very fortunate and blessed to have.

But, like, yeah, I say those are the.

Are the best ways to, like, reach out and connect and always happy to have a chat if anybody wants to know.

Like, you know, how are we doing when it comes to, like, hiring black people?

Are we incorporating the right strategies or stuff that we can do better?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And obviously that applies to all minorities as well.

Not.

Not just black people.

Yeah, no, we work.

We do work and help with everyone, but like I said, our advocacy is around the black community.

That's just a community that I'm from.

And I.

I know those experiences firsthand.

And I know that a lot of times the stories, success stories, don't get a lot of light on them, and they should.

They are just as compelling as any.

Others, you know, and.

And before we close up today, Jermaine, obviously we're talking to a lot of entrepreneurs on this show.

A lot of them are younger entrepreneurs.

Maybe they haven't even taken that leap.

And I'm confident that many, many, many of them are minorities, and I can't speak to them the way that you can.

And I was just really hoping that you could inspire them.

You've created an incredibly successful business.

You did it at 25 years old.

What type of, you know, motivation can you give these people who are right on the fence?

They have an amazing idea they just haven't leapt yet?

I would say two things.

One, find a problem that you are absolutely obsessively passionate about solving.

Something that strikes you to your core, whether it's something that connects to like childhood trauma or childhood inspiration or a childhood hero.

And like, center your focus around addressing that.

And the second thing I would say is don't think, just act.

I think the problem that a lot of people have is that they think they have to have a.

They have to perfect their idea in order for it to be viable.

And like the reality.

And again, the experience I had at that VC place, the reality is that you launch it, something imperfect and you tweak it and build and improve it as it goes along?

The best way to be able to grow your product, your business, your brand, your entrepreneurship is to put yourself out there, see what the response is, see what's working, trial and error, and tweak it as you go along.

You always stay out of the game if you remain on the fence, right?

It's better for you to dive in, fail, build again, fail build again, fail, build again, and then take off.

And you learn so much, right?

You learn so much more than you could ever imagine when you take that risk, when you take that leap.

And even if you fail, it's not really a failure because the lesson you learned will make you that much more successful the next time.

Exactly.

Jermaine, this has been absolutely amazing.

Thank you so much for staying up so late and joining us on the business development podcast.

Thank you for having me, Kelly, and all the best to you out in Edmonton, man.

Thank you again.

Until next time, this has been the business development podcast and we will catch you on the flip side.

This has been the business development podcast with Kelly.

Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development.

The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your business development specialists.

For more we invite you to the website at www.capitalbd.ca.

see you next time on the Business Development PODC.