Michael Whiteside.

That's right, Michael Whiteside of Ogden, Utah.

He's a smiling face, he's a happy face.

And today he joins us on the DFL Before DNF podcast season one, where we're exploring late race survival.

His almost daily training route is the opening 4 miles of the Wasatch 100 right up the gut of Bear Canyon.

He's gritty, he's strong, and, and last year he ran the Bear and Wasatch.

We sat and talked about his family, his job, all the things that could get in the way of trail running, how he balances it all, and gosh, I'd give anything to have that smile on my face.

Late race of even 100 miler.

But he did it on two and he's going to tell us about it.

All right, Michael Whiteside, welcome to the DFL Before DNF podcast.

You and I met at Yoko Taco.

I think we sat and chat there at a taco shop downtown Salt Lake.

And we talked for a while and I think there's, you know, just from a personality standpoint, I just really enjoyed you as a person.

And obviously we met under the context of being ultra runners or lovers of the sport and doers of it.

Some better than others.

Fellow crazies.

Fellow crazies.

And this year you, you endeavored to do the wasatch 100 and the bear 100 back to back.

And for those who don't know, those are just some pretty amazing races.

Those are really like, if you love races that aren't like marquee races but deserve to be.

Right.

But the directors, I think, have made intentional decisions to not let them become that.

Yeah, I think I agree with that.

Those are the best races in the country.

Yeah, for sure.

And they, they happen very close to each other and one would argue that no one should run both of them, but there are a few who do it and you're one of them.

Yeah.

So I wanted to chat with you about that, but before we go into that, I wanted to just get to know you a little bit better.

So, Michael Whiteside, tell me what you do.

You got family?

Tell us where you work.

Just kind of the person.

Who are you?

Yeah, so I'm married.

I have a 13 year old daughter and I have an interesting job, very niche.

I sell hydraulic controls for snowplow trucks.

Oh.

So.

And I cover most of the West, I think six or seven states, I can't remember how many.

But is this a busy time of year or is it busy in the off season?

You're trying to sell.

Yeah, I mean, it's.

So the selling happens through the summer usually, and then a lot of technical work.

When you get into, like, the fall, everybody forgets how to use a plow.

Yeah.

So how many hours a week you putting in on that on your day job?

Yeah, I mean, it's.

I like to say I don't really have a job most times.

Yeah, it's pretty light duty, you know.

I mean, it really depends on the day.

It could be 10 hours, could be 12 hours, but could be four.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I mean, it's.

I don't have a schedule.

My wife hates that part of it because I don't like.

You know, I work from home, and I have.

I've been doing this about 12 years, so.

Okay.

Pretty used to it by now.

Same company?

Yeah, same company we actually got purchased six or seven years ago.

But, yeah, same gig.

So.

Steady.

Steady as it goes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's sales, though, man.

It's, you know, feast or famine.

Yeah, totally.

So it's, you know, you're.

We work off state contracts and stuff, so.

Okay.

Anyway.

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

So when did you start to get the bug for ultras?

Yeah, that's, you know, that's a funny story.

So I was kind of.

I.

I, you know, I gained a bunch of weight when I got my sales gig because I was.

The times were good.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I went from being a mechanic, you know, actually working for a living to, you know, free meals and sitting on my butt, traveling and whatever.

So, yeah, I started, like, cycling because running was too hard and I wasn't a fan of running, which is funny.

Yeah.

How old were you when this was happening?

So this was 10 years ago?

Well, like 12 years ago.

I'd say we're about the same age.

We're about 41.

Yep.

41.

Yep.

Be 42 here pretty soon.

And so, yeah, I was in my early 30s.

Right.

And so started cycling, and I couldn't, you know, I'm pretty competitive.

I like to, you know, race and see how I, you know, line up against other people and then.

But I couldn't really find it.

Cycling, you know, you need, like, a team.

You do these, you know, intricate races.

And it wasn't just, like, go out on Saturday and do a race.

Yeah.

So my wife did the Portland Marathon in 2016.

Nice.

That's a good marathon.

It was rough, man.

Poor girl.

You know, it was rated the whole time, just a down.

I mean, typical Portland weather, right?

Yeah.

So it was Kind of nasty.

But I saw her finish, and I was like, dang.

All right, maybe this is the ticket.

So I, you know, I built my way up 5, 10k half marathon.

I've never actually done a marathon, though.

I kind of skipped that when my buddy, you know, I was like, yeah, what's marathon?

So he actually asked me.

I'd kind of heard about hundreds, but I didn't know anything about him.

Yeah.

And my buddy was doing Wasatch that I grew up with down in New Mexico, and he was like, I want you to pace me for a third of it.

I was like, wait, what?

Like a third?

Like, if I remember what a third of a hundred is, like, that's over 30 miles, man.

But he's like, yeah, you got it.

He's like, I'll be slow.

It's the last 30, you know, and at Wasatch, that's Brighton to the finish.

So he picked me up at Brighton, and.

But, you know, leading up to that, I ran with him that March.

So this is 2019.

I ran.

Oh, that was the 40th anniversary.

Yeah, I ran.

I DNF'd that.

Oh, nice.

Sweet.

Yeah.

So I, you know, I probably saw you.

Yeah, maybe.

Well, no, you're at Brighton.

I didn't make it.

Right.

So it was.

Yeah.

I was like, okay.

I ran with him in March, and I was terrible.

Yeah.

I mean, I thought I was a runner, but I wasn't a trail runner.

Right.

I mean, we hit, you know, hills, and I'm, like, sucking wind and way behind him.

I'm like, oh, man, I got some work to do.

Yeah.

So I ran pretty hard through the summer because I was terrified.

With no race, you were just.

You just got motivated or leading up to the pacing.

The pacing was your.

That was your.

A race.

Yeah.

That was my game.

Right.

I mean, I hadn't even thought about signing up for a race at that point.

So I was like, I just got to pace him.

I can't let him down.

Super worried about that.

So I over trained like crazy to pace 30 miles.

Right.

So I was, like, running.

I probably could have ran the hundred, you know.

Yeah.

But so I worked hard and ended up pacing him.

And, you know, I mean, he's faster than me by far, but still, you know, mostly walking at that point.

You know, hiking and, you know, run some downhills.

But anyway, so we got it done, and I saw him cross the finish line.

I was like, dang, man, this is my life now.

Like, I have to get a buckle, you know?

Yeah.

Immediately.

You Know, I mean, because we kind of crewed him throughout the day, so I got to, you know, see the community part of it.

And I was like, dang, man, this is awesome.

Yeah.

This is like, this is it, right?

There's some guys and women out there that are like, they're just 100 milers.

Right.

And there are.

There are also people out there who do 100 milers, but, like, they can.

They'll go crush a 50k and they'll go get a 50 mile.

Maybe their A race next year is going to be a, you know, a really difficult mountain.

100k.

Right.

But then there are some people that are just 100 milers that everything that they do is only preparing them for their next hundred miler, even if it's a 50K.

Right.

And that.

That appears to be you.

And what that person is to me is just like, you don't got time for anything else.

You are a trail runner, and to follow you on Instagram is to see lots of great photos long before the sun comes up.

That's a true story.

And you're running alone in.

Wild animal country.

Oh, yeah.

See?

Eyeballs.

No big deal.

And it doesn't bother you?

Nah.

So tell me a little bit about just.

Okay.

Coming out of 2019.

You know that you're going to do it.

Yep.

Talk to me about between there and your first hundred.

What was your first hundred?

Right.

So of course this is, you know, pre Covid.

Right.

So I ended up doing the antelope 50k in 19 is like, my first ultra.

Okay.

So that was two months later, right.

In November.

So knocked that out, felt good.

And was like, okay, I don't.

I'm still terrified of hundreds, you know, I'm like, I don't know, man.

It looks hard.

Yeah.

So I signed up for Zion 100k in 20.

So they canceled that and they canceled it.

So I ended up doing my own 100k that may just, you know, made a silly course up and down the mountain.

Did you go back?

Because that same company vacation races, they did put on Bryce.

Right.

Did you go do that?

No.

So I deferred until 21.

Okay.

And I bumped up from the 100k to the 100 miler.

So that was going to be my first hundred miler.

Okay.

So I was like, you know, I'm deferring.

I done 100k by myself at that point.

So I was like, I can do.

Let's, you know, let's go for it, man.

Yeah.

And so that, like, October, I hired a coach and tried to get serious about it.

Okay.

Because I didn't know.

I found out very quickly during my own solo 100k that I didn't know what I was doing, you know.

Who'd you hire as a coach?

Sylvia Greer.

Greer.

Endurance is her company, and she's a powerhouse.

Nice.

I mean, and technically my cousin, I like to say, through like three marriages, but, you know.

Yes.

We'll still call her cousin.

Hard family.

Yeah, exactly.

I knew she was crazy, so I'm like, all right, she's my.

She's my people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and I think that crazy of that person who is.

Who is just 100 miler, you also.

And this is where I can't keep up, but it seems like you love the training, or at least you're so consistent with your training that that's part of like that 100 mile beast kind of thing.

You're out there a lot.

I am out there.

So she has to kind of rein me in a little bit even, you know, I mean, I'd run seven days a week.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, that's what I was doing before I hired her.

Just thought more was better.

Right.

I mean, isn't always.

Yeah.

Right.

Just go all out.

Why not?

Yeah.

You know, I mean, so she's reined me in a bit.

Right.

Gives me rest days.

Which I wouldn't take.

Yeah.

If nobody made me.

Yeah.

So are those rest days tough psychologically?

They are, man.

They're boring.

Right.

I mean, I'm usually, you know, I'll make myself busy, you know, Board runner makes a clean house.

Is this.

So it's, you know, but I.

I'm always terrified of letting myself down.

Yeah.

And I always think if I'm.

Even if I miss a day, man, I'm gonna.

I'm gonna feel bad about it.

Yes.

So I'll find a way.

Right.

If I got to go at 4am to be, you know, take my daughter to school or, you know, do.

Do whatever I got to do.

What time are you going to bed?

Usually?

So, you know, 10 or 11.

Okay.

So you function pretty well with.

Yeah.

Okay.

I mean, I try and, you know, I got.

I got a sweet gig, so working from home, you know, I get a nice afternoon nap if I need it, you know, if it's because, you know, four to five hours of sleep and, you know, you know, you get out there on the trail early, you're going to get wiped out, so.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but you have sort of a.

Average is still the wrong Word for it.

You have a route that you take more often than others.

Right.

Tell us about that route.

It's a pretty cool route.

Yeah.

So, you know, the long runs on the weekend are, like, the favorites.

Right.

I mean, so I do this route where it's, you know, you go up the start of Wasatch.

Right.

You go up Bear Canyon.

You do.

So that really is the start.

Yes, it's the 3,000ft.

Yeah, about four.

4,000Ft of gain.

Over two miles.

Three miles.

It's maybe four.

I think it's four miles from bottom to top.

You know, it takes two hours.

Takes me the fastest I've done.

It's just under two hours.

So, you know, it's legit.

And then you run across the top, across the ridge, and then come back down the old Wasatch.

But when you get up there, you don't go toward the satellite.

Right.

You go the other direction.

Correct.

Yeah.

Sometimes we'll hit those.

You know, I mean, to add.

If you need to add a little mileage.

Yeah.

You go up there and loop around.

Yeah.

So do a little out and back, because it's about an 18 mile loop.

You end up with just north of 6,000ft of earth.

So, you know, it's a good Saturday morning.

I mean, the two times I've gone for Wasatch, that.

That Bear Canyon is a.

Is.

It's memorable.

Yeah.

It's no joke, man.

A lot of attrition happens in there.

Absolutely.

I mean, I, you know, I've done it two years in a row, and it's just.

You see it, man.

You see the people huffing wind and pausing on the side and.

Yeah.

Because it doesn't, you know, and it doesn't quit.

And then the final push is like.

Yeah.

Just insult to injury, right?

Yes.

Drava.

You know, it's called death row.

So.

So did in 21, did you get Zion?

Yeah, so 21, I did Zion, and I actually signed up for Zion and bear for 21.

Okay.

So I had it in my head, if I failed, you know, if I DNF'd, I'd want another try at it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if I succeeded, I want another try.

Like, there was no scenario where I wouldn't want to keep going.

So I was like, well, it's just, you know, you have to sign up early for the Bears.

So I was like, let's just do it, man.

Yeah.

See what happens.

So 21, I did Zion.

And it was, you know, it was hard.

Yeah.

It was everything I expected and more.

That climb Up Gooseberry Mesa and the, you know, the falling down of Gooseberry Mesa, like, that's a.

That's a real beast.

It's a beast in its own right.

It's no Bear Canyon, but it's got its own reputation.

Oh, yeah.

Well, and I mean, so the year I did it, you drop down that and then you come back up it at 70 or ish.

Right.

So it was.

Yeah, yeah, it was in my head all day.

Super worried about it, you know, about.

That, about that coming back up at.

65, that coming back up.

And, you know, it's funny because I kept getting in my head, you know, just worried the whole time.

I mean, worried in the 40 mile range that I wasn't going to be able to finish, you know, And I'm.

Man, I'm going so slow.

I got no energy.

Like, there's no way, like magically get energy back.

Right.

You know, like, I'm exhausted.

But you know what happens, right?

Yeah, you just ride the low and then you get through the highs.

And, you know, we got to that climb.

I was with my coach at the time.

She was pacing me and it was.

It just went, happened, climbed up, it felt great and ended up finishing out, you know, I mean, it got hot again and I struggle in the heat generally.

And it's April, right?

So here in April, it's not above 70.

So down there, it was in the 80s.

I was cooking.

Right.

Yeah.

It was a good time, though.

You get Bear that year?

Yeah.

Did Bear.

Did Bear faster than I did Zion, you know, learned a lot.

Yeah.

Which is wild, right?

I mean, yeah, it was a half hour faster, but anyway, still.

Yeah.

So, you know, it felt good, though.

I felt like I was like, I still don't feel like I belong, but it felt like I was like, okay, I can do this, right?

Yeah.

Like, I'm figuring it out a little bit.

I still feel like a rookie.

Like, they're just so much of a learning process.

And then so after that, I'm like, you know, my buddy did Wasatch.

I just figured that's the next logical step is to give Wasatch a shot.

Okay.

So you get the lottery?

Yep.

Got in the lottery.

Got in the first year.

Okay.

You know, I was like, oh, yeah.

And that.

So 22.

Yep.

So that's 22.

Finished.

It finished Wasatch, you know, took a little bit longer than it took me for Bear, because Wasatch is no joke, man.

Yeah.

I mean, it's unrelenting.

Yeah.

You know, and I had paced Brighton to The finish twice at that point.

So I knew what I was up against.

You know, towards the end it is.

I still wasn't ready for it.

Yeah.

You know, it still hit me hard.

I say my.

In my two attempts at Wasatch to DNFs, I.

It was, I think, still even actually harder to be in the crew or to be in the aid station at Ant Knowles as a volunteer one year.

Right.

Because getting to Aunt Knowles, it was.

It's like a mile and a half road that takes you like three hours.

Crawl up.

Right.

I mean, so even the.

Even the aid station volunteers are doing their own versions of.

Oh, yeah, 100 mile.

I think that was the first time I actually saw you was at the Ant Knowles aid station.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I remember I loved that.

Yeah, it was cold.

Oh, it's cold, man.

I love that aid station because there's no.

You can't drop.

You were not allowed to drop.

Yeah.

Because we couldn't get you out of there.

There was no chance.

Yeah.

You either go back or keep going.

Yeah.

So why not just keep going?

Keep going.

All right.

Then you get the crazy idea you're gonna put in.

Was Bear a lottery or was it just no bears?

Bears first.

First come, first serve.

So.

So you got.

You got in the bear.

Yep.

Put in the lottery for Wasatch.

Got them both.

Yeah.

And you know, big miles training up, leading up to it and training.

Yep.

Walk me through first Wasatch that year.

Right.

Let's go into like some late race stuff because like I said, we're about the same age, so I feel okay calling you old.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

You know, being in your 40s and going for that is like, can you imagine 20 year old you thinking, hey, when I'm 40, I'm going to run Wasatch.

You don't even know Wasatch is.

Then you hear about it, like in 20 years when you're 40, you're going to do that.

Yeah.

No way.

So there you are, you're doing it.

Do you have any, you know, clear memories of the suffering, late race suffering there?

Oh, yeah.

So, you know, I knew what I was up against.

Right.

Second time at it and second year in a row.

So I'm like, okay, I had some strategies.

Right.

That were going to get me through.

Yeah.

And I did better early on than I thought I would.

But the struggle happened.

You know, that section between Big Mountain and Lamb.

So, you know, 30 to late 40 miles, you know, it's a 18, 19 and it's hot.

Super Exposed.

Exposed.

And it's just miserable.

And my stomach kind of started to turn, and I wasn't really eating very well, and I was trying to, you know, stay hydrated, which I did a pretty good job at.

But, you know, by the time I got to lambs, you know, sun's going down, and I'm like, man, I'm behind.

So I'm already in my head, right.

That I'm slow, I'm behind.

I wanted to be here earlier.

So pause right there.

That's stuff for me is like, are you saying it out loud?

Are you.

Are you, like, do you have anyone that you're saying that to so they can say, hey, shut up.

You know what I mean?

Like, I keep that all internal.

That's one of the things I need to work on.

The next one is to say these out loud to people and give them a chance to shut that voice down.

But what are you doing in that moment?

Yeah.

So, I mean, I had my good friend Ryan with me pacing, and he was a good job reassuring me.

Right.

And, you know, I kept.

I did vocalize, like, man, this is later than I wanted to be.

I wanted to be here when the sun was fully up, right?

And the sun's going down and it's starting to get cold, and it's like, man, you know, And I didn't feel like I was moving.

He's like, no, man, you're running a smart race.

Like, you're doing fine.

But, you know, the negative is just like, yeah, whatever, dude.

You don't know.

Yeah, right.

It's like, you know what you're talking about.

I know.

So.

And my family was at.

You know, my wife, my daughter, her parents.

And then my other pacer, who was the pacer that I.

That got me in or the guy that got me into this nonsense.

So he was going to pace me.

Bright, the guy that you did at 19.

Yeah.

New Mexico.

Yep.

Okay.

So he's like, I got to repay the favor.

So he came out to do the same section.

And so they were all, you know, really good at reassuring.

Yeah.

But, man, for me, once I get in that headspace, you know, my belief of what other people say is almost null and void.

This is.

I had this exact discussion today.

I am not externally motivated.

I'm internally motivated.

And so I'm trying to flip a switch to get.

To see if I can bring in some of that stuff that people say.

But if I don't think I can keep going, I don't care what anybody says.

I can't.

Right.

Yeah.

And I mean, it's.

You know, the big part for me is I'm going to complain a lot, especially internally.

Yeah.

But I'm not going to give up unless you make me.

Like, it's not gonna.

It's not gonna stop me.

It's gonna feel terrible, and I'm gonna say the worst things you could tell yourself.

Right.

I mean, you know, because we'll get.

You know, race number two of the double was a lot worse, but.

Yeah, but getting into the.

You know, once I got to Brighton, so.

Back up one Aid station, Scott's Ridge.

Yeah.

So, you know, you're there.

It's a big drop down to Brighton, and I made the mistake of checking the time, and I don't know if it was a mistake or not, but, you know, it was 3:00am, 3:30am the.

Cutoff at Brighton is like 6 or 6:30.

Yeah.

I think it might even be 7 now.

It's.

It's too late, in my opinion.

But anyway, I don't think you could make it if you're there that late.

Yeah.

So in my head, I thought, I have to be to Brighton.

You know, I got to be out of there before 5am to make it comfortably.

Right.

I mean, I know it can take 12 hours to get from Brighton to the finish.

It just can.

Yes.

You know, I've done it twice, and it's.

At that point, it's taken all of 12 hours.

Right.

So I knew I was up against it, but it kind of lit a fire.

You know, it was, like, good and bad.

So I just pummeled my way down to Brighton and got there before their predicted time, which I still felt way behind.

You know, I mean, there's a video, and I need to go through some of them, but there's a video of me getting into Brighton, and you can kind of see the panic in my face.

Really?

Yeah.

And it's just like, you know, I'm in my head at that point.

Yes.

And.

And probably the worst.

The worst part about the second half of Wasatch was I chafed really bad, and it was so painful, and it just demoralized me.

And, you know, because once it comes on, you know, you're kind of screwed.

There's no coming back.

Right.

I mean, you're not gonna heal.

It's only gonna get worse.

There's not enough Vaseline.

No, there's not.

So, you know, I was.

I was also panicking about that, you know, and just like, this is gonna suck.

And I knew every step after Brighton is not easy.

You know, a lot of people say on paper that you're gonna make up time.

I just think it's a fallacy.

Yeah.

I just don't think, you know, I mean, it's a.

It's a tough last 30 miles, man.

It's no joke.

So I knew, you know, I was just in my head the whole time.

I knew it was going to get hot again because, you know, I'm a.

I'm a late finisher.

So I knew, you know, I was going to have to hit the afternoon.

Yeah, I knew that.

Last four miles is brutal.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just a mind game.

Yeah.

So I knew I had a good pacer, though.

I knew he was going to help me through.

I knew he wasn't going to let me quit.

You know, he's going to.

He was a good time, you know, making me laugh and telling stories and making fun of me and it's good stuff.

So.

So, you know, you're a very like, down to earth type person.

And what I.

Where I want to apply that here is like, so you're at the starting line.

You're not the type that's like a cheerleader in your own brain.

Like you can do it.

You know, it's like, it's probably like a very sober.

Right.

Your logical thinker, like at the starting line, what going through your head?

Yeah.

Terrified, man.

Yeah.

I mean, full on, you know, excited.

Yeah.

Because it's.

It's what I worked a year for.

Right.

I mean, I knew as soon as I finished Wasatch the first time I wanted to try for the double.

So I was like, so.

I mean, it's a full year of the build up.

Right.

And then so super nervous, you know, but terrified.

I don't ever feel like it's in the bag, like until I'm five miles out and I got two hours cushioning because.

Okay.

I could walk this it if I have to.

Right.

So I don't ever feel that, like, just overconfidence that it's going to happen.

I mean, I could do 10 of these and I don't think I'd feel like I'm going to walk through and just be fine.

I mean.

Right.

Because anything can go wrong.

Yeah.

So I try and, you know, I try and be positive, but it's not happening.

Right.

I mean, it's.

I'm calculating, especially doing Wasatch and Bear, you know, the second time for both of them, I knew what I was up against.

Yeah.

So the struggle for me, big time at Wasatch Was not thinking about every aid station down the road.

Okay.

It was like, just think about the next one, man.

Yeah.

Like, get to the next one.

Don't worry about mile 80 or that climb sucks and you're gonna hate it, and it's gonna be painful.

And, you know, think about.

You're at mile 40, man.

Get to 50.

Okay, so let's say that you've.

You've set that, and, you know, let's get to mile 50.

You get to mile 50, how hard is that transition to say?

All right, let's get the 56 now.

Yeah.

Way harder than it sounds.

Right.

It's still like, okay, at 60, I got this, but at 70, I got this.

Right, man.

And then I gotta drop into there, and then I gotta climb up out of there, and then.

Oh, that section sucks.

Do you get any anxiety around the times that you told your crew that you're gonna be somewhere?

Hugely.

Yeah.

It's.

I mean, it's been the hardest pro.

I mean, one of the most difficult things is to not worry about them.

Yes.

Because I just think, man.

And I've done it probably every single time I see him, man, I'm sorry I'm so slow.

I know.

It's like, every time.

You know what I mean?

Your brain is just so gone.

Right.

You're apologizing for that.

Yeah.

If those people who are there for you are worth their salt, they know what you're doing, and they know you're probably going to be, like, five hours late.

Exactly.

You were so ambitious and optimistic.

No.

Yeah.

We'll see you whenever.

And my wife is the same way.

She's always like, if I need to leave because the kids are too much, I'm.

I'll just leave, you know?

Like, I am choosing to be there.

Right.

Don't care.

But then in my head, I'm always like, God, I told him five, and it's seven, and I got four more miles and I'm gonna.

I need to go lay down.

Yeah.

And it's.

Yeah.

So I.

You know, all of that calculus just, you know, works into calculus.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, I've tried making spreadsheets of, like, best time, worst time, you know, what I want to be.

But this is probably reality.

Yes.

And it's.

Yeah, it's been super hard, man.

I mean, even in shorter races, I'm like, man, I'm sorry, guys.

And they just look at me like, dude, we're here for you.

Who cares?

And, like, I did it once.

I did Speed Goat, and I came in of course.

Later than I thought.

And they were like, look where we are.

We're having an awesome time.

Yeah.

Speed goat's great because the finish line is also like.

Like.

Right.

It's a great area for kids, and you've got three kids.

And so I'm.

I'm putting stuff on myself that no one else is putting on.

Absolutely.

And it's illogical.

Yeah, completely.

It doesn't make sense.

Yeah.

I mean, they're.

It's a volunteer.

Right.

I mean, my poor wife, she gets voluntold, but, you know, you should be here.

Yeah.

And she's awesome.

And I mean, and her parents are awesome.

And they're always there and they just, you know, if you're going to.

I.

I try and I've tried harder to put it in perspective of if I was crewing.

Yeah, I'll do it all day.

I don't care.

I'm here for you, man.

You know how bad I want.

I mean, I've done it a couple times where I'm crewing and the runner is late.

And I love telling them it's no big deal because it's.

It's therapy for me because it's like, oh, it really isn't a big deal.

Right.

Actually, I got.

I've been sitting in a lawn chair.

Right.

Reading.

Yeah.

Or to another cell reception.

Right.

Yeah.

Like, this is a good thing.

Yeah.

So to, I guess a piece of that, like, how do you get through the late race?

Survival is be on someone else's crew.

So you can see if you're talking about what we have, you can see that it's not as big of a deal as you may start to feel.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

I mean, because crew and him, you know, before I even started, you know, it was like, okay, you know, this is awesome.

I loved it.

Loved every part of it, you know?

Yeah.

I mean, it is stressful to be crew because you do.

You don't want to let them down.

That's right.

You don't want to miss them.

So, you know.

But you enjoy it.

Right.

And they enjoy it.

Yeah.

The community is huge.

Right.

I mean, so it's.

It is given that little bit of perspective.

Right.

Of like, okay, nobody cares.

Right?

Nobody cares.

It's like, nobody cares what your finish time is.

Right?

No, we're obsessed with it internally and in the moment.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's.

Absolutely.

I really thought I could do 32.

It's probably going to be 36.

Oh, yeah.

35, 59.

The belt buckles the same at that.

I mean, you're not getting that.

Yeah.

Past 30, man.

It's all the same.

Who cares?

Okay, so you.

So you pushed through Wasatch.

Yep.

Made it through.

Which oftentimes, you know, that's.

That's a fantastic story in and of itself.

But now you've got a quick turnaround.

Right.

So how many weeks until the bear?

So three weeks.

This year it was three weeks.

It's been two before, but this year was three.

So, you know, it's five days off.

You know, literally not doing anything.

Yeah.

Doing a little bit of walking.

And then that Saturday.

So six days later, started running again.

What was your volume like?

You know, it was 8 to 10 the first Saturday, Sunday, which actually felt way better than I thought I would.

Oh, wow.

And then I think I did 40 or 50 miles that middle week, you know, with.

Dang.

I mean, felt like kind of a regular training week.

Right.

Not a.

Not a bulk week, not a high end, but, you know, average.

So felt pretty good.

You know, there's some things that didn't feel good, but it wasn't like, okay, I'm injured.

No, not at all.

So it was just like, kind of expected.

I didn't expect it to feel good.

Yeah.

You know, and then, you know, the taper week came, and it's right back at it.

And it was like.

And I felt nervous before every race.

Yeah.

Hands down.

But this one was different.

Right.

Was Wasatch weighing on your mind?

Like you've done what the.

With the miles you already put on your body?

Yeah, I mean, I was.

I was assuming I was going to be tired before I even started.

Yeah.

I mean, it was like, it's.

It's gonna suck.

Right?

I mean, I thought I knew instantly before I even started that it was gonna suck.

Yeah.

I mean, I put it in my head that way, which most of what I put in my head for Bear was exactly what you shouldn't.

I mean, you know, early on, I felt actually pretty good getting into the first crew stop, which is like 19.

Right.

Felt pretty good and was doing okay.

Nutrition, you know, hydration.

But quickly.

Quickly made a turn after that.

So they're, you know, big, long climb starting to warm up.

And then, you know, I couldn't eat anymore.

Really?

Yeah.

So it was.

There's a video and I was looking for it, so remember exactly what I said, but it's still on my GoPro.

I haven't even offloaded it yet, but I vividly remember saying, this is gonna be the hardest thing I've ever done.

And I'm at, you know, mile 30, I thought, I'm going to have to dig deeper than anything I've ever done before.

This is going to suck.

Like, I'm tired, I can't eat.

Nothing looks good at an aid station, you know, I mean, I was still drinking.

I was still drinking, you know, they did gnarly, so.

Still drinking, you know, calories.

Yeah.

At that point.

But it was rough, man.

All right, so, I mean, clearly we all understand the concept of digging deep, but what everyone sort of unearths when they're digging is.

Is unique.

What, as you're digging deep, like, what are you finding in yourself?

A, what.

What's there that you can pull on?

And B, did you surprise yourself?

Yeah, definitely.

Definitely surprised myself.

You know, I've.

I've learned over time with, you know, struggles and addiction and whatever else that I don't have an off switch.

So once I start something, if I vocalize it, I'm not going to quit unless you make me.

So either I'm going to miss the cutoff time, you're going to have to pull me, or I'm death marching and it's, you know, something real bad's happened.

Yeah.

So I didn't ever think that I was going to quit, but I didn't know how hard it was actually going to be.

I mean, I expected the worst.

And I told myself relentlessly that it was awful.

Yeah.

And.

And I was delusional about how good I was doing.

I thought I was doing terrible the whole time.

I mean, we got to.

We had to, like, you know, the.

I don't remember those eight stations.

But anyway, it was right before the night.

Okay.

And crew was there, stuck my head in the crate with all my stuff and was crying.

But nobody really knew it because I was like, laugh.

Crying, you know, like I said.

I said, who said this is going to be easy?

Which one?

You said, you dummy.

I'm like, all right, so this is going to be hard.

Yeah.

But I was doing better than I did the first time.

I did bear at that point, and I was moving well, it just hurt.

And I kept telling myself, your legs are not going to come back like a normal hundred.

It's.

Your legs are gone already.

Like, Wasash destroyed it.

Not bouncing back.

Yeah.

Like, you're not going to bounce back.

This is what life is going to be like.

Yeah, it's going to suck.

It's going to be really hard on some levels.

Is that easier?

I'm just thinking if I know that this is what I've got And there's no hope.

This is like.

So it's.

It's.

To me, it's.

It's Sisyphus.

It's like I'm never gonna get the rock to the top of the hill, Right.

I'm.

It's never gonna be there.

So I gotta learn to be happy with what I've got, Right?

In some ways, yeah.

I think.

So your legs weren't coming back.

Yeah.

I mean, it was like there was no up.

Gonna happen.

Right.

Yeah.

I was just gonna ride this low for the next 40, 50, 60 miles, whatever it was going to be, you know, I mean, and.

And come to grips with it.

Right.

And that's, I think, was actually, you know, I tell myself is.

Is the stupid way to, you know, keep telling myself how hard it's going to be.

But I was in some ways coming to grips with the reality that it's going to suck.

Yeah.

And it's not going to get better.

Yeah.

And.

Oh, well.

Like, what are you going to do?

Quit?

Yeah.

You know what I kept telling myself like, so what are you going to do?

Give up?

I'm like, well, that's not going to happen.

Like, I'm just not.

I wanted it so bad.

Why did you want it so bad?

You know, multiple reasons.

Some vein.

Like, I told people I was doing it.

I put it out there on social media.

I, you know, I put it out there, and I didn't want to let people down, so I, you know, the weight of everybody else's expectations, which didn't exist.

Sure.

Yeah.

No one's like, God, Michael's got to do this.

Yeah, man.

If he fails, what am I going to do?

Yeah.

So it's like, you know, hope is lost.

Yeah.

What's that guy?

So I wanted it for that.

Yeah.

And I knew that runners that I greatly respected couldn't do it.

Yeah.

So I thought, if I can do it, man.

Yeah.

That'd just be huge.

Right.

I mean, so I just.

I wanted it so bad.

Yeah.

And I knew there was no quit, but I was still terrified.

I mean, did you know there was.

No quit because you didn't give yourself that door, Right.

Yep.

So you were just like, there was no option.

There's one way home, and it's across the finish line.

Right.

There's no other option.

The other option is I'm just gonna get so slow that, you know, they.

I miss a cutoff.

Yeah.

Like, that's the.

That's the road out.

Yeah.

But it wasn't gonna be.

I wasn't gonna intentionally Slow down.

To make that happen.

Right, right.

And there wasn't an out.

There was no, you know, okay, if I make it to here and I don't feel good, I'm gonna quit.

Like, there just wasn't happening.

Yeah.

So I had really good pacers again.

And my coach paced me for the last, you know, couple sections.

And, you know, she's just mentally one of the strongest people I've ever met, really.

And she's like, vocalize it, man.

So I'm.

That's good.

I'm screaming in the middle of the woods, you know, obscenities and saying, this is so hard because it was, man, smart.

Yeah.

New to me.

I've never thought, like, legit.

Yeah.

Scream it into the mountains.

Let it go, man.

Drop F bombs in the woods.

Nobody cares.

Yeah.

There's other people probably echoing back to you.

Like, other people are just shouting back.

I know.

Yeah, we get it.

Me too.

So it was, you know, vocalizing that helped a lot.

Like, she's just.

And I did it a lot, man.

Yeah.

And I don't even think I felt that I could actually cross the line.

When the sun came up and I got to Beaver Mountain.

So it's mild, 70, whatever.

Yeah.

I was like, okay, I got a shot at this.

Yeah.

Like, it's.

It's getting, you know, she picked me up there and it was like, you know, I'd been through the night.

I sleep, you know, I literally ran while I was sleeping.

Dreaming, hallucinating, whatever you want to call it, you know, threw up for the first time and, you know, went through everything I think I could possibly have gone through.

Yeah.

Including not eating for hours at a time and just liquid, which is just water.

I mean, you know, that high calorie water we all intake.

Right.

So it was.

It was getting to that sunrise.

I said, maybe I can do this.

Maybe it's.

Maybe it's going to happen.

But I would never let myself be like, you got this.

Yeah.

Like, it's happening.

You're going to cross that line.

But inside, I continuously.

Vision, you know, put that in my mind, man.

You know what it's gonna feel like when you cross that line?

Like, the tears are gonna flow, the adrenaline's gonna hit you.

You're gonna sprint through that gate.

Where are you at saying that?

So that is pretty early.

Honestly, even before the start, I would.

Say you were there.

I was there, man.

Like, I knew, man, that's gonna be two buckles, two plaques.

Can you believe what it's gonna feel like to do what Some people that, you know, have never been able to do right.

People have given up.

People don't even attempt it.

People think you're stupid.

Yeah.

So it's great, you know, so that's motivation.

And it was just like, yeah, I envisioned that.

I mean, I envisioned that a lot.

Almost every race.

Right.

I know that feeling now.

Yeah.

And I know that it was going to be so much sweeter than any of them that had been before.

So I'm like, that was, you know, huge motivation.

Right.

But not being able to actually let myself feel that it was going to happen until probably the last aid station.

Oh, wow.

And I'm like, dude, you, like this is happening.

You know, you get like an hour or two or however long that is.

I'm just feeling like, oh, my God.

Right?

Like this is happening, man.

And it was, you know, it's not easy.

That last stretch of Bears, you know, comparable to Wasatch.

It's hard.

It's no joke, right?

Yeah.

Up and over that hill.

It's like, really?

That's how we're going to finish this thing?

Yeah.

I got to climb up that and I'd already done it before, so I knew what I was up against again.

Right.

And you know, the finish is even a little bit farther away now than what it used to be.

So, you know, from that last aid station and you're on the road and I'm just like, man, this thing's never ending, but it's right there.

And I ended up seeing a guy that I'd kind of yo yoed with and I'm like, you know what this time, man, let's go.

Yeah.

Running like nine minute miles, you know, felt like I was running a five minute mile.

Yeah.

I mean, it was like adrenaline just took over.

I'm like, I can't believe this is happening.

An unreal feeling.

But it wasn't.

I don't even think it was until that.

Till I made the turn and mile left that I even let myself actually say, this is I did it, man.

And even now it's.

It's a.

It's annoying that I, you know, try and belittle it or, you know, degrade it.

To think like, was it really that hard?

Yeah.

Well, you got your side set on a 200 and you seem like the type eventually.

Yeah, for sure.

You know, I think I want to nail down the hundred mile thing, you.

Know, I think you've got a pretty good.

You've got a pretty good case to toe the line of a 200.

I've got my.

I love, you know, the desert.

I want to.

I want to build a body of work that would.

That would justify me signing up for Moab240 or Donna.

I agree.

I still got some work to do, but, man, I think.

I think you're there.

I think you're ready for it.

I mean, they're definitely on the horizon, right?

Well, I said don't you dare.

Yeah.

I am not.

You're gonna have to hire a crew.

Yeah.

And, you know, so I think it's there for sure.

It's.

It's on the list.

It's going to happen.

Yeah.

I've got a few hundreds I want to do.

Still, though, do you got anything for this year?

Yeah, I'm going to do Crazy Mountain 100 Montana.

Yeah.

Super excited about Buckle.

The buckle, buddy.

The buckles, you know, what drew me in.

Yeah.

You know, let alone that it's in an awesome place, Beautiful scenery.

Great.

Great race director, too.

Yeah.

So I've only heard great things about it, so.

And then I'm gonna do the bear again.

Oh, great.

I probably.

There's like a 500 person waitlist this year.

Yeah.

They had to cap it.

Yeah.

I mean, that's.

Again, I think we'll finish here how we left off.

What I love about the Baron Wasatch is that those are.

Those are two races that I think, from my perspective, have made intentional decisions to not be.

No judgment.

But, like, what Western states they.

They commercialize.

That's great.

Good for the sport.

Love it.

I'm a fan of that race.

But Wasatch and the Bear, those still feel like.

Yeah.

Like a local feel, right?

Yeah, man.

The energy is good.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And the race directors of the Bear, like, we don't want to do a lottery.

We want to keep it how it is.

Keep the feel.

Right.

And I mean, it sold out in two hours.

We want people like that, you know, protecting some of those races.

And on the other end, I want those big marquee races, man, to keep the bear in Wasatch.

It's a real treasure for Utah.

Absolutely.

So great choice on those two.

And good job in both of them.

Oh, thanks.

Thanks for your time today, Michael.

Thank you.

Appreciate you having me.

See you next time.

Yeah, thanks.

It's too cold.

Welcome to the borderland.