Welcome to the Big Careers Small Children Podcast. My name is Verena Hefti. I believe that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children for much too long. Amazing people like I'm sure you listening right now have found themselves stuck on the career ladder when they have children and that leads to gender inequality in senior leadership because those people don't progress to senior leadership and the same stale, often male, middle class people leading our organizations. We must change this together and I hope that many of you listening right now will progress to the most senior leadership roles that you like where you can make the decisions that make our world a better place. Outside of the podcast. I am the CEO and founder of the Social enterprise Leaders Plus. We exist to help working parents progress their careers to senior leadership in a way that works for you and for your families. We have free events and resources on leadersplus.org where you can download helpful toolkits such as on returning from maternity leave, share parental leave, securing a promotion, dealing with workload challenges, or managing as a dual career couple. We also have an award winning fellowship community which is global for working parents Who have big dreams for their careers But don't want to sacrifice their family. You'll join an absolutely wonderful group of people, a very tight knit, supportive group of parents who have your back together. You'll explore what your career aspirations are and you'll get advice from senior leaders who are also working parents about how to achieve those aspirations. You'll get new ideas to combine your hopes for your careers with your hope for your family. And you are supported by people who are experiencing what you're experiencing yourself. I'm really delighted that a larger majority of our fellows have made tangible changes following the program. Be that becoming more senior in their roles, working shorter hours, having better flexible working arrangement. They always impress me so much with. The courage that they instill in each. Other to do what is right for them without apologizing for having a family or apologizing for wanting that top job. Details are on leadersplus.org/Fellowship. Today I'm chatting to Heather Blundell. We talk about her life as a CEO. She shares with us how she's setting boundaries and why. Actually she's setting more boundaries now as a CEO than she did in previous roles. What she does to be present with her children and how she writes through life's imperfections and the complexity and messiness of it all. I really enjoyed. It was such an honest conversation and I found her personally incredibly inspiring. I'm sure you will enjoy hearing from her. A very warm welcome, Heather, to the podcast. It's great to have you with us. Why don't we start with you introducing who you are, what you do for work and who is in your family.

Thank you for having me. I'm Heather Blundell. I'm the UK CEO for Grayling Communications, which is a specialist PR public affairs agency. And I've been in the UK CEO role for about 18 months. And I have two little boys that keep me on my toes. They are four and six.

That's a very good age. And is there anything that you used to believe about combining a senior career with children that you've changed your mind on?

Oh, gosh. Well, pretty much everything. And I think actually the narrative on this has changed a lot, particularly for women, which I think is helpful. I hope that gone are the days where we are told that women can have it all, because I actually, I don't think that's a helpful sentiment. And I also don't think that men can either. I think that what I would say to myself and what I've learned over the years and continue to learn, because anything I say, I'm on an absolute journey with this, particularly with my children being relatively young, is that there is going to be compromise in every area of your life when you're working and also raising children. But I think that I hope that I've been on a journey where I can be a bit more deliberate about that compromise and where I am making compromises and transparent around it as well. So my working week, I actually have to be away from my children for a couple of days during the week. But I think I have learned that the time I do have with them to be fully present and as present as I can be, so not being constantly on my phone or on my laptop. And I learned that actually between leaving my last job and this job, I had quite a powerful experience. I was put on gardening leave, which I didn't Had never happened to me before, and I didn't think was going to happen. And everyone was telling me how lucky I am, but I actually felt quite freaked out by it. And I felt like I had really lost this huge part of who I was because I wasn't working. It wasn't hugely long, it was a couple of months. And I really struggled for the first couple of weeks and was just filling my days with chaos, really. And then I went to watch my two little boys. I picked them up from school on a Wednesday and I went to go and watch them in their karate class, which is about half an hour long. And I realized that I just hadn't been watching them properly. I'd try and go every week, but I'd be I'd duck out for a quick call or I'd be on my laptop, or I'd be on my phone and I'd wave when they were doing their bit. But I wasn't watching their interactions with other children. I wasn't watching how they took direction from the teacher. And I just had this absolute epiphany moment of I can never go back to where I was before. Nothing is ever going to be so important that I need to take half an hour during their karate class to write a proposal. But I just don't think I would have ever had that realization if it hadn't always been forced on me. So that was quite a powerful experience in terms of having it all doesn't exist. But we can prioritize, particularly within our family life and also within our work life as well.

Hmm that's very powerful. And I think it's interesting because you then started a new job and not just any new job, you went straight into the CEO role after that.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think there's something interesting about setting yourself up with the right boundaries. And I'm sure SEO job doesn't have that many boundaries.

Yeah.

However, having had that powerful realization, how did you set yourself up differently before even entering that chair?

I do think I have in this role that I have now, I do think I have much better boundaries than I ever have before. Mainly because if you are in a leadership position, there often isn't anyone else to blame apart from yourself. So if you want to create a workplace and a culture where people can thrive at home and at work, that responsibility is now on me. And I take that for parents. I take that for people who have caring responsibilities in my workforce and for everyone that wants to have balanced work life and an integrated work life so that I can retain the absolute, attract and retain the absolute best people within the agency. But I think the boundaries that I've certainly put in place, I think has almost for me certainly come with a confidence, I think. I became a managing director at a global agency when I was 29. I had my first baby when I was 30, and I think I definitely didn't ever want people to see me differently. So I never felt confident enough to actually say to people, on this day, I do pick up. On this day, I do drop off. On this day, I do bath time. And I really try not work in these two hours. I was in the school playground on a conference call, trying to put myself on and off mute or even with my kids in the bath and I'd be sat there on the side of my laptop with a blurred screen, you know, all of this stuff. And actually I just never wanted to go back to that because if I'm doing that, everyone else will think they need to do that. And you can't have shame around our children, I can't have shame around our family life. So these are very basic practical things. But I have only really felt confident enough to do them within the last 18 months, couple of years is to even just block out the time very transparently in my diary, anyone can see it in my diary. I'm doing pickup, I'm doing drop off at this time, can't book calls in this time, I can't do a pitch at this time. And I often will say to people, you know, I'm picking the boys up, I'm taking them to their football, their karate, whatever it is they're doing, but I'll be back online at half seven eight. But then I also know that I have allowed myself that time. I'm not going to be resentful about having to pick up some of the stuff that's a bit later, which actually could be quite helpful. I can often review stuff and have it ready for people first thing in the morning. So I actually think if there's a group of us working in that integrated way that actually not saying we provide a 24 hour service, but it can almost feel like it sometimes. But I think I remember even just a couple of weeks ago, someone really senior, one of my clients asked for a call with me and for the first time ever, I said, I actually can't do it at that time, I'm picking the boys up. Can I possibly do it two hours later? And of course they said yes. But for me to have got to that stage, I've been a parent for a while now and I'm only just feeling able to do that. But I think I now see and feel the responsibility that if I don't do it, others aren't going to do it as well and we will not have the agency and the culture that I'm desperate for us to have. So I do need to lead from the, the forefront in that respect.

You're absolutely right. But I think what you're really honest about is that the shift had to happen in your own brain.

Yeah, yeah. No one else is going to do that for you.

Exactly. And I think it's so easy to feel as a victim. And I'm not blaming anyone who is feeling as a victim because it's really tough. The world is not designed for working parents. And you have to do this extra work, not just do your job well, look after children. Okay. But also you need to do the extra work of crafting your own work life and negotiating and so on. So it is hard. But I think you're right in that it has to shift in your own brain and you just have to make the choice directly. Yeah. Interesting. And did you always think that you still become a CEO with children or did you, in your mind, have a bit of a trade off before you started trying for babies?

I must admit, I don't think I've ever seen it as mutually exclusive. I've always felt very ambitious and had a very clear sight of the role that I wanted within an agency and that I would. I felt that I would be good at it. But I've also always known that I wanted to be a parent and a mum. And I think some of the most powerful things I feel that I can do for myself and that I can do for other women is to just actually, just speak really positively. I mean, it's not a walk in the park and sometimes it's exhausting and absolute chaos and I fail all over the place. But actually, they are the two best things in my life. The role I have and my children. And they both bring me a huge amount of joy. I've had a conversation in the kitchen this morning, actually with a lovely lady who's about to leave to go and have a baby. And I just said, oh, you're just going to have the best time. And they have, My children have enriched my life and grown me as a person in a way that I couldn't comprehend. And I feel like my work life now makes a lot more sense instead of just beasting myself so I could go on the occasional nice holiday and have a pair of shoes. I feel this real responsibility and purpose. And actually the thing I feel really passionate about is how much better I am at my job because I'm a mom and because I'm a parent. And I think that it's made way for a lot of compassion and kindness in my leadership, but also a lot of clarity. And if something isn't working, if we need to shift something, I certainly don't feel scared of things in a way that I was before. Because quite frankly, when you've been through labour and you're raising a child and you do everything else. The stuff bounces off me in a way that it probably didn't before. And I'm also extremely time efficient now. I think before I had children, I think my working day, I think I used to mince around the office having lots of different conversations. And I think I started my work at 6pm and I don't really mean that disrespectfully for anyone who doesn't have children, but I think when I'm on a deadline of having to go and get the kids or I have to organise my diary in this way that is so rigid, I make decisions really, really quickly. And I've also had to learn I can no longer be a perfectionist. If something's 80% good enough, let's send it. You know, let's do the best possible job that we can, but also not less perfect. Be the enemy of good. And that's the only way we can do this when we have children and we're working as well.

I think a lot of listeners will find this really helpful to hear the fact that even you as a CEO in a very, very target driven. You're in if you don't do a job well, people are going to be made redundant because you're not going to have the money in the organization. Yeah, but I'm just interested in how like I understand rationally that what you're saying about letting go and being okay with 80% but how you are able to do that or maybe when you're not able to do that. I just would love to learn a bit more because that is tough and it's tough to look at it in that way when you are the person the box stops with.

Yeah, for sure. And I feel you're totally right of how you summarized it. If the business doesn't perform, then I can't promote people, I can't hire people. We have to let people go. I mean, that's an enormous responsibility and one that I take very seriously. And I'm sure that anyone that works with me would probably say that it doesn't feel like I often say 80% is good enough. And I do know I have high standards. But I also think that particularly within the industry that I work in, which is very, very fast paced, we bill time. So that's what I sell to clients, is people's time. I don't actually have a problem making people work. I have a problem making people work less. And so it is being able to provide that clarity of okay, yeah, we could spend another five hours on this proposal and that would be really nice to have. Is it absolutely essential? Sometimes, yes. If it's wrong or not good enough, yes. But if it's a nice to have and it's going to keep me away from something in my personal life or family life that's really important, then that isn't a compromise that I would make personally or expect anyone within the workforce to make. But I would say that I've been on an absolute journey with that and I have made some real mistakes with that. And in terms of. Since becoming a parent, one of the things that just sticks out in my head is I missed my eldest son's first ever sports day because we had a very important new business pitch. You know, we'd obviously tried to change the date, but they just wouldn't budge. I think we'd even said I couldn't make it because I had this engagement at the school anyway. But I went to this new business pitch. We didn't win. And I remember finding out that. I remember feeling absolutely awful because he obviously asked me where I was and then a week later to find out that I had made that decision and we still hadn't won. It just. It's a very powerful reminder that. And this isn't meant in a, you know, aggressive way. No one else cares. My children are my responsibility. If I'm not going to attend a sports day, a client's never going to give me the gig just because I made that sacrifice. That's on me. That's my decision. And that was the wrong decision. But I'm really glad that that happened to me because it was like a thunderbolt of this can never happen again. And I sort of. You tell yourself stuff sometimes when you've got very young children, even awful things that they won't remember, or I'll be more present when they're older. And actually. But the habits and they have to be ingrained at this early stage. It's not like all of a sudden they're going to turn 8 and 10 and I can put all these boundaries in place. You know, something catastrophic would have probably have happened before then. So I'm glad it happened, but it was a difficult moment, but I learned a lot from it. And I hope that that. That's certainly something that doesn't happen to me again and I will definitely avoid doing it. But those moments happen all the time.

Absolutely. And I think the other thing that comes through in the story is that it's a personal thing. So the sports day clearly it sounds like your family is super sporty with lots of.

I know I have made them sound very active. Just boys with a lot of energy.

Life is a lot easier when kids are very tired in the evening, in my experience. I think it's also. It's such a personal thing for someone else. It might be a piano or recital or whatever it is, but it comes down to your values and your gut feeling if you really want to be there and you have to do something against those values that it will sit with you. Like in way you describe. Yeah, yeah, you mentioned about presence there and again, coming back to the buck stopping with you type situation. How do you practically make sure that you are not on your phone, you are not looking like you might still be thinking on your way home about that big pitch coming up tomorrow and we feel everyone is prepared and everyone knows what they're meant to do or. Oh, you have got this additional small idea that should be considered. How do you have moments of being present with the children regardless?

Yeah, I certainly am, I'm sure. Still on my phone all the time. I remember when my son was very young, you know, those little sort of like toy plastic laptops. And I remember he was sat there playing and he was on his laptop and he was going, I'm Mummy, I'm Mummy, I'm very busy. And everyone was laughing. In my mind I was like, gosh, that's how he sees me, rather than someone who's playing with him or being fun or whatever. And it was a. It was a sweet moment, but again, that was a bit of a. That's. He's repeating what he's seeing me do. And of course my kids see me on my laptop and I'm proud that they see me working and that they know what I do. But I think I was given some really amazing advice by my godmother, actually, when I went from having one to two. Because I think the other thing we need to be honest about is you can have a lot of support at home and a really good, you know, network, etc. But a lot of the mental load still stops with. Stops with me. And I sort of carry these things in my head all the time, like World Book Days and a present on Saturday and spellings and have we even written in the reading folder this week? And you know, things like that, they just go on in my mind absolutely constantly. There's nothing that I can do to stop that. But there are also things that I felt that I was doing well. She, my godmother observed that I was doing that were hidden and possibly unnecessary. And she was super senior at l'Oreal. And because I'm away from my children for a couple of days and the week and, you know, I do two drop offs a week and one pickup. I think I was doing things to try and compensate and make myself feel better, like that, that I was a good mom. And actually there were things that they would just never ever know I was doing. And such basic things like who cares who sews their names onto their labels or if you just get one of those stamps, you don't need to do all those sort of, you know, perfect things. If I turn around to them when they're 18 and they say, you were never there. And I say, oh yeah, but you know, look at those lovely packed lunches I used. You know, make your name onto your labels. Like, no, they want me on the sidelines at the football pitch, they want me there at the parents evening, not dialed in on a phone on the table. So I her her advice of being present. And you know, the time that I do have with them, even, you know, at the weekends, I'm just absolutely all in with them. And that comes at a compromise to myself. You know, I work full time and at the weekends I'm very little by choice, have very little time for myself or to do anything other than with the children. But I also am really quite deliberate in that decision making because I know my eldest is six. I know in four or five years he'll probably be out a whole day on a Saturday, like with a play date with a friend or he'll go to a sleepover. So I've actually got this like tiny little window with them and I need to be quite purposeful in how I maximize that. So I don't need to be there seven days a week, every minute of every day. But you know, those two hours that I have with them three times during the week that we read that we play in the garden, that we do bedtime, and then I'll pick up the three or four hours worth of work that I've got to do and at weekends that we're really present together. So I think it's about just being very intentional about my presence and not doing things that make me feel like I'm a good mummy, that are actually jus, They don't mean anything.

Absolutely. What you're describing sounds as a lot of hard work. And I know a lot of senior people work in that way. I have an agenda which is I want more People with caring responsibilities in the roles, the type of roles that you're in. And I was wondering whether there's anything that you can share with our listeners about why is it worth you having such an intense life? Why not stay at home, relax, go to yoga during the day? I'm not saying it's hard work, but I'm sure we all have fantasies. Maybe it's just me, because I'm recording this as I'm quite pregnant of take A week out to be, Although my partner would say I would be a terrible housewife. And he's absolutely right. Yeah, yeah. So I'm more interested, why is it worth it? Why are you doing this?

Yeah. And I think lots of people do, and lots of my brilliant friends have made choices to stay at home and be present with the children. And that is work. That is labor. That is incredibly, incredibly hard work. If you told me to look after my children for seven days a week, I think I'd be much more exhausted than I would be running a company with 200 people in it. I am flat out exhausted at the end of every weekend. So, you know, I certainly don't think that that is an easy option and that I have the hard option at all. I think it's about where you find your joy and where you find your purpose. I remember starting my career, I was absolutely consumed with having. I think I wanted five children. At one stage, I'd still quite like five children. And I was just so focused on, like, the earliest opportunity that I could have a baby and, say, a family. And I started work, and it was this absolute revelation to me that I'd managed to fall into this career where I just really, I felt really quite good at it. And, you know, I'd always been okay academically and I'd done very well. I found my studies very solitary. And all of a sudden I was in this dynamic workforce working with a team. It just woke me up in a way that I felt I hadn't been woken up before and I wanted more of it. And it was this real shift actually in my life and actually led to, you know, when I was in my twenties, quite a considerable relationship breakdown because I changed as a person. I went from being this person that I really did just want to have a family and stay at home. And that was my whole dream and that, you know, we were embarking on that journey together, and then all of a sudden my career just absolutely took off and I just found this license to operate that I hadn't before. So, you know, I'M not ashamed to admit that my career and my work brings me an awful lot of joy. It brings me a lot of energy and I'm really proud that, you know, about 75% of the time I feel good at it and also I'm just experiencing this now, but the purpose that comes with that has been very empowering for me. Just this weekend that gone by, one of my clients is the owner of a big UK football club and they had a big match on at Wembley. My eldest is football mad and, you know, we were able to be in the executive box and, you know, he met the players and the managers and it was kind of the first moment where I took a step back and I just thought, you would just never have this if I hadn't been able to bring this opportunity. And I'd had something quite similar with him a couple of months back and which I've had some great feedback on. This actually, this was a real learning moment for me as well, is that I've never had any problems with either of my two wanting to go to school or nursery. But my eldest was having a little bit of a tough time recently and it wasn't school, it was one of those sort of, you know, holiday camps I booked him into and he just stood in front of the gates and he just said, I am not going. And it was, you know, one of those moments where I could sort of thrash this out with you, but I'm not going to get anywhere. And actually you've never done this to me before. I'm always telling you that I will listen to you if you have a problem. This is a moment for me to listen. I had a huge day and I wasn't even in London. So I said, well, you're going to have to come to work with Mummy if you, if you're not going. He said, I will come to work with you. So anyway, we just off we popped and I walked into the office with him. I had back to back client meetings. I had an all agency meeting with my 200 staff and, you know, actually Eyal walked into the office with him and said, I've got childcare issues, which I think every single parent in the office was like, oh, you know, thank goodness, happens to everyone. He sat in the front row at that meeting where I had, you know, my all agency and we presented and he got to see me in action, as it were, and to, you know, listen to, you know, the work and he loved it and everyone, you know, obviously made a lovely fuss of him. In fact, he went home and said that, you know, mummy's work's like a party, which is probably not that helpful, but I'm glad that's how he experienced it. But, you know, that was just a moment of being really quite real, but for the first time. And obviously they're still quite little, but for them to have a little bit of insight as to, you know, what I do and who I am and, you know, hopefully, you know, as a family, you know, we can benefit from it.

I love that story and I'm hoping for your sake he didn't have too good a time so that he goes again at some point.

I know. Exactly, exactly.

Well done. I love the courage going through that. I'm interested in just your wider experience within the playground and so on. So there are obviously lots and lots of different patterns of setting up family and career. Sometimes the people on our Fellowship program tell us that they experience a bit of stigma from people who make different choices, perhaps that are to put the career on a back burner, which is, as you say, an okay choice to make, if that's what's right for you. I'm just interested if you've ever faced that and if. Yes, how you dealt with it.

Yeah, massively and probably dealt with it very badly is the honest answer to that. And I think I did. I did a panel a couple of months ago on imposter syndrome. When I was preparing for the panel, my absolute honest thought was that I don't feel like I have a huge amount of imposter syndrome in my work life. I really struggle in that. The other area of my life in terms of I probably feel more imposter syndrome in the playground than I do at work. I have done absolutely wild things. I pretend to be on work phone calls if I don't have anyone to stand with, because I've actually got, you know, a couple of really lovely friends at the school now. But that's taken me a little while and I'm doing more drop offs and pickups now than I ever have. But, you know, to build those relationships, you do need to, to be there and, you know, at the parties and things. I've done absolutely crazy things like pretend that I'm on the phone because I'm scared that no one will speak to me. I mean, I would just never do that work. I would never lack any of that, of that confidence at work. I have lied and said I'm not full time, I'm part of time. Just, you know, for. Because I don't want people to think, oh, My goodness. You know, she works because I live outside of London, so I've got a very long commute, which means I have to stay in London. So, you know, not only am I full time, but I'm often away from my children. I travel a lot as a woman and as a mum, you know, you are very aware of that. I mean, I've had fascinating conversations with, you know, some dads. It's often a different world for them and they have just accepted that, you know, they aren't in the playground, they don't have those relationships and this is their role. My honest. And some people may disagree with me here, but I do feel that that, that feels different for a woman and for a mummy, especially with two young children. So, you know, I'm still working that through and I'm still gaining in confidence with it. But I, you know, I do feel more and more comfortable all the time and I have made some good friends and I've, you know, I've volunteered for a few things at the school that are manageable. And, you know, I'm certainly not going to be on the PTA anytime soon, but if you need a helper at a Christmas disco for two hours, I can always do that. So, you know, I don't know how I'm seeing through other people's eyes. I'm sure that there are judgments because we all judge one another and I'm even quite conscious sometimes about, you know, what I'm wearing when I walk into the school assembly because I'm about to go to a client meeting and throwing a pair of trainers on instead of, you know, just trying to fit in a bit more. So there was imposter syndrome and trying to fit in in every area of our life. But I hope is that I, you know, as I grow as in my journey as a parent and also in my career, that, you know, I just feel more and more comfortable in each evolution of my life. But that is very much still a work in progress.

There's a lot of wisdom there. We're coming towards the end of our conversation and I wanted to ask you if you could share two or three things that if someone's listening to this, feels inspired and would like to at some point in their career, become a CEO while still having relatively young children, what would be two or three things they could do this week to start putting them on the right path.

Particularly as a woman, I think we have a real responsibility that if we do want to see the shape of leadership tables change, you know, that we do actually need to policy into action. So since I've been in this role, we've overhauled our maternity benefits, we've overhauled our paternity benefits. That is so important. You know, paternity needs to be better for men so that they can take time out of the business, and men need to feel able to take time out the business. We feel so nervous about taking maternity leaves because we think it will set us back in terms of our career and our progress. And men feel exactly the same. So I've worked somewhere where they had an extremely generous paternity policy and none of the men took it in full or they chunked it up, which is actually quite disruptive. Instead of just taking the same amount of time out of work as a woman. So, you know, enhancing that, you know, miscarriage policies, fertility benefits, menopause policies, More women are now dropping out of the workforce at that stage of life than they are bringing children into the world. We have an aging workforce with caring responsibilities. You know, my father has been caring for his parents, and he probably has to have more time off work with caring responsibilities than I do with two young children now. You know, we've got to move at the times. We are now in, you know, a place of work where we can potentially have four generations working within our workforce. And we need to protect people. Otherwise, you know, we are just going to have these hidden people that are just going to fall away who are such talent within our agency. So, you know, to be inspired by that, that we can be part of a movement and part of a change. And actually, I believe we have a responsibility if we want to see the world change, for us to step up and take those leadership positions when we do have them, to be the change that we want to see. So I feel very positive about that, to speak very positively about having children. You know, my sister's just had a baby, and the amount of times I would just overheard conversations with her about, you know, going back to work and sleepless nights, and yet that all happens. But it's also a total joy and, you know, makes the world and your work make a lot of sense. And also particularly, you know, returning back after having children. I'd love to ban phrases like 'baby brain' and 'fog'. And, you know, actually, most women and men I see returning to the workforce are better versions of themselves. You know, post a bit of time out of the business, more time, efficient, more clarity, braver. And, you know, for us to not think that this means the end, this can mean the beginning of something and a brand new journey and to feel sort of empowered and excited about that. And I hope that doesn't sound toxically positive of me. I do know that it's really tough. My four year old woke up three times last night. You know, it's exhausting still. But there is just so much that's good as well and I do think that that does need to be embraced.

Very well said. Thank you so much. Heather, if people want to find out more about your organisation or about you, where should they head?

To the Grayling UK website.

Perfect.

Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate you listening. Thank you. Thank you so much and I always love to hear from our listeners. If you want to connect with me.On LinkedIn, just go to FerenaHefti and I'll be delighted to hear your feedback and your suggestions or just have you say hi. Likewise, if you do feel passionately about gender equality and you want to support a female led podcast, then please do leave a review and share it with a friend.Just because.Because at the moment podcasting is still A very, very male dominated environment.Most of the top charging podcasts are led by men. I really love all the people who've joined from the podcast our fellowship program and if you want to do the same, then please head over to leadersclass.org Fellowship in order to get access to a community of support to help you combine ambitious career with young children together with people who have your back. See you next week.