Hello and welcome to, or welcome back to the Mother-Daughter Relationship Show. I'm your host, Brittany. In today's episode, I am interviewing somebody a little bit different. We are still gonna wrap this into the mother-daughter relationships, specifically mothers raising teenage daughters at the moment. I hope you enjoy this episode and are able to take away something from it to give you a little teaser. I hope that you understand what it's like to partner with your daughter. I hope you take away what trust building means and how important it really is, and I just hope you enjoy the episode all around. Like I said, it's a little bit of a different topic, but I do think it's important for moms raising teenage daughters. At the moment, Welcome to the Mother-Daughter Relationship. Show the podcast for mothers and daughters who want to build stronger bonds, deepen their understanding and transform their relationships. I'm your host, Brittany Scott, licensed therapist and mother-daughter relationship coach. After years of working with hundreds of daughters. And mothers. I've developed strategies that help break generational patterns, heal wounds, and create the loving relationships you've always wanted. Each week I'll be sharing insights from real clients, expert interviews and practical tools you can use immediately to improve your mother-daughter dynamic. Whether you're struggling with communication breakdowns, navigating major life transitions, or simply wanna take your already good relationship to the next level. The show is for you. And yes, the transformation I guide my clients through can be yours too. I'll share more about how you can work with me. It's time to experience the relationship you both deserve. Are you ready? Let's dive in.

we have Athena here with us. Tell the listeners about you and your work. Hi everyone. My name's Athena Savino. I am the CEO and founder of Top Marks Prep. I'm also a tutor and in-classroom teacher, so I've worked very closely with parents and students, but my main job is Top Marks Prep, which is an adaptive learning platform where we work directly with students and we also work with tutoring centers. To provide adaptive test prep for everything from the Catholic school high school entrance exam, all the way to S-A-T-A-C-T, gmat, GRE and so on. So I'm excited to be with you here today. Yeah, I'm excited too. So I know you guys listened to that is probably like, wait, why is she here? Yes. What does that have to do with this podcast? But we'll jump in and you guys will hear the intersection. So tell me about why you reached out and why you thought this episode would be good. Well, tell the listeners, not me.

Yeah. Really for the last five years I've gone into homes to help tutor students for whether it be a middle school entrance or high school entrance exam. Really what I found is I'm oftentimes working with the student and the mom. While the dad may or may not be around, I am normally working directly with the mom on scheduling how the student's doing, and I found that the dynamics between the mother and the student often play out very directly in front of me and play out in how. The student or child views this test, how they view themselves, and I think it's a really important topic to think about how we as moms can support our students who are going through a very stressful time, right? No one likes standardized tests, the stressful time of preparing for and taking any standardized.

So mom, I mean, as we already know, is pretty much involved in everything that has to do with the children and this is another area that can become stressful and also really play into the relationship dynamics between

mom and child. Yes, very much so. I've kind of seen it all over the last five years. I've seen, you know, preexisting dynamics in a relationship obviously influence how the family navigates. Of test prep for really high stakes exams, but also new dynamics come into play where maybe they weren't before. I've seen maybe a really laid back mom become very on top of their, their student about studying and you know, meeting their expectations and kind of seeing how that relationship can sour at least. From the days I was there or lead to bad dynamics in front of me where it may not have otherwise existed. So I definitely see this very stressful time. It's not just a stressful time for the student who's anxious and nervous about the exam, but it's really stressful for the parents where there's real stakes behind how your kid might do on one of these exams.

And how does that affect the relationship between mom and the child? What have you noticed or what have you been able to witness?

I've witnessed a few things. I think overall it really strains the relationship. I think there's very few examples I can give you where the relationship wasn't strained. You know, a very well-intentioned mom wanting the best for their kid, maybe knowing the potential of their kid, knowing that they can do well, and then becoming kind of the task master of like, Hey, you have to study, you have to do this, you have to do that. How did you do on this exam? Really holding a child's feet to the fire on their performance. And kind of what I've seen is it changes, it creates a dynamic where the mom becomes a task master and the student grows, resentful or annoyed versus a true partnership in this combined shared goal of either maybe the shared goal is doing well in the test or maybe the shared goal is. Hey, I know my ability is X and so my goal, my stretch, is to achieve Y on on this exam. And I think sometimes some of that is missing. And there are a few things that parents can do, moms can do to change that dynamic to make sure you don't become the task master, that you don't become the overseer, that you don't become the at-home teacher or principal, but you truly remain your child's partner in a shared goal.

So thinking of partnership. What does that realistically look like in the day to day? So parent decides to hire you or your company, however that works, and you, you know, you are tasked with helping the child on whatever test is happening. What should that partnership between the mom and the child look like?

Yeah, I think it actually, the partnership starts even before I gets involved in the picture. Really. I think it starts with. Sitting down with your kid and you know, whether it's mom or if dad is in the picture, both parents ideally sitting down. So it doesn't just lay on mom's shoulders, right? Like, like most things do. But as parents sitting down with your child and saying to them, Hey, you have this exam coming up. I know it can be kind of stressful. I myself not a huge fan of standardized tests or they really stress me out. I think what could be helpful for us as a group or as a partnership or as a family, however you want to term it, is figuring out what is our true goals here and setting those goals with your child. And maybe the shared goal is, Hey, this is a high school entrance exam, or maybe this is the a CT. And maybe the student says, I want to go to X College, and that college has an average a CT acceptance score of, okay, let's say it's a 28. Okay. Our goal for you then as a family is to get a 28 on the A CT. How do you think you learn best in order to get there? And you can give them options based on really what your budget is. We've built top Marks Prep in order to be affordable to every parent who can't afford a tutor. And that's really because as a tutor, I've seen how inaccessible private tutoring is from 90% of families. And so, hey, maybe you need an adaptive test platform. Maybe you need to go to the library and I just wanna check out a CT books. Maybe it is a private tutor, so maybe based on your budget, you give them a few options and say, these are your options. And ask them, how many hours a week do you think you can study for this exam in order to reach that goal of 28? And have them co build that study plan with them. And you know you're able to say, let's say they, what if they say like, oh, I can only study one hour a week. You get to push back just like you would at in a job or. A team sport team or something where you don't necessarily agree with the initial offer. You can say, I think you have time. If we can cut back on X, Y, Z, I think we can go all the way up to four hours. How about we try that out and see how it goes? And we can always revisit and just have this open communication with them where you're co building a plan, you're co, you're sharing in a goal. You've set that goal together. They know why they've set that goal. You're not just saying to them, Hey. You have to get a 36 on the a CT and that's just it. They've understood, okay. They're subscribing to, I want to get into X College. I know I need this score. I believe I can get it with this plan that we and my parents believe that I can do it with this plan. It gives them also a sense of confidence and buy-in to make sure they have everything they need. So I think the partnership starts way before we even pick up a pencil and paper. It's, it really starts with the planning phase.

So what do you recommend for moms who maybe didn't start with partnership? They're now maybe in the middle of. A stressful senior year like we are in December and it, you know, maybe they're in a senior year or a junior year and they're preparing for a senior year and they didn't think about a partnership model and now they're stressed and the relationship is strained. What would be the step after that?

Yeah, and this is often where I am inserted somewhere into the picture of, Hey, we're really down to the wire and we do need a private tutor, and. Maybe they have some sense of the child's current ability via diagnostic or some other, maybe they've already taken the one test. Really, what I would suggest is taking a step back and going back to that planning phase and saying, obviously we're not starting from, Hey, how do you wanna study for this? But it's really based on what you've studied for thus far. Again, what is the goal that we want to reach together? I think it's always important to assess and reassess that shared goal. 'cause you might set a goal that in the beginning is unrealistic, but you didn't know that until you've assessed their abilities. And it's helpful to have data to really back that up. And I highly suggest taking a diagnostic test. We have a free one up on our website that students can take for any of the exams, but having at least one or two data points where you can say, okay, you're coming in at this score. If your goal is maybe you're coming in at a 20 and you you need a 28, maybe we have to reassess that 28. Maybe we have to reassess how many hours you want. But if they aren't bought in on the goal, it's gonna be very hard for them to study. And I hear it all the time from parents. You know, I might say something like, should really have your child take a diagnostic so we can understand where they're at. And I cannot tell you the amount of times I've heard from parents. Well, good luck to me trying to get them to take a one hour diagnostic. And at that point, you know, we're all signaling something that, okay, well they're not bought in on this test. They're not really gonna study for this test and there's no expectation in this family, but they do study for this and so the only outcome there, it's nothing extraordinary. Right? They're not gonna shock you with, with a perfect score on the exam if that's the attitude. And so it really is like. We have to buy into this as a family, we have to treat this as a shared goal. And I know I've seen, I've worked with students where it's just so stressful in the middle and taking a step back and in a calm way, really listening to your child and saying, I know that this has been really tough. I want us to work towards something that you feel comfortable with. Where do you wanna go to college? What high school do you wanna go to? Maybe it's like getting away from the test a little bit and kind of asking them why and exploring that and then coming back to it and saying, okay, it sounds like you really wanna go there. This is the average score. Do you think we can come up with a shared plan to do it and get their buy-in? 'cause the hardest thing in test prep is motivating a child, and it doesn't help if a parent is not involved. And it doesn't help if the parent is the task master and the child resents the parent for it.

So it sounds like connection. Is really important here. And if a disconnection is already occurring before, so like good luck getting them to take this diagnostics test that's already showing a disconnection. Agreed.

Exactly. If the parent's attitude is, like you're saying Exactly. If it's disconnected from the process, disconnected from their child. If it's like I as the parent have no authority on what happens here, I think that there is a. Potentially a larger issue that needs to be addressed. But in the context of test prep, if there's no shared goal, if there's no shared plan, if there's no buy-in, if you're saying, yeah, it's just gonna be impossible to come that and reach something that certainly is extraordinary for your child or is what you hope for them or what they want from themselves outside of, of how they're already performing, they're not going to leak. Bounds over their current score if we don't do something to address the current problem.

So what would you recommend, or just how would you respond to this if the child's goal? So the daughter's goal and the mom's goal, they don't align. So the mom tells you her goal, she hires you, then you speak to the daughter and they're not in alignment at

all. Then what? I've definitely had this play out. It is an extremely uncomfortable place for me to be. You know, I had a scenario where I was hired by the mom. She had very high expectations of basically wanting her daughter to get a perfect score on a high school entrance exam, and had actually gone through a couple other tutors before me to get there. Already, it's a little bit of a red flag to me that, okay, this might be a tricky dynamic. When I work with a daughter, I see that she has extremely high anxiety. This like achievement anxiety of, am I doing enough? Am I doing enough? I'm not good enough, and the way she's talking to herself when she gets things wrong, you know, it's never talking well of yourself when you get things right, it's only talking negative to yourself because you might have gotten something wrong. It's a huge red flag to me that there's a high level of anxiety here, and the daughter really had, if you got her in an honest moment, and she understood that really what she needed to score in this exam was above a 90%, and her mom needed her to get a hundred percent. And there's a gap there in expectations. And what ended up happening is I asked to call. At the end of our tutoring session, I said, Hey, could you, could you please go get your mom? I'd like us to kind of have a discussion and set expectations together on what a shared, and so I did this. I kind of mediated this, and I know most people won't do that, or most people, obviously it's rare to have a private tutor, but where you see that dynamic happening, I would tell any parent, please take a step back. Please see the larger impact on. You're a kid, and whether that's causing them a high level of anxiety, that I can tell you honestly that I think test anxiety is the number one thing that hurts scores. It's not that students don't know the information, it's that they just have so much anxiety. It's blocking them from being able to read the questions clearly. And so it's far more detrimental for your kid to go into any exam or into school and just have a high level of anxiety. And the best thing that you can do is reset expectations together. And if you have some expectation that your kid can't reach, I've seen this too. It's really, really, really hard because they co, they feel it. They constantly feel like they're letting you down, and that's a very hard place for a child to come from.

So then how can your role, and also maybe the mother's role, let's just thinking about testing anxiety. What can mom do? What would you do that mom can either add to or make better or that she should just be doing on her own?

I mean, I think it's a couple different things depending on how you interact with your child through this journey. It's something where you're sitting down with them like you know, a private tutor would and walking them through the test prep. Something that I do as a tutor and that we've kind of built into our platforms is true motivation along the way. So. It's something as simple as like, that was awesome that you got that right. Like, good job. That's really great. Like just really providing them with like a pat on the back as they get things correct and as they keep going. Even saying like, that was a really hard problem. Good job. Such a small thing to say, but it gives them so much motivation to keep going. And then just in general, for most parents, I would say. The best thing that you can do is take your expectations out of it, which is extremely hard thing to do, and just listen and support your child without your own expectations on those conversations. It's not. How did you do on that last practice test? It's how are you feeling after coming out of that test? How did you feel while you were taking the and is. It's really easy to jump in with your own anecdote of like, Hey, when I took the a CT, this is what how I felt and this is what happened and this is all of my experience. It's really just letting them share, letting them vent, getting it out of their system, and then kind of coming back with, they say that they're struggling, like, yeah, it is really hard and a lot of people struggle with this. I want you to know that you're not alone in it. How else can I support you? And like really asking them that. Coming across as a real partner in the experience, I think is the best thing that that most parents can do.

So not just motivation, but also validation on this process?

Yeah, validation on the process, support throughout it, checking in on how they're feeling and trying to support their feelings because it's highly likely, I've never really seen a parent come in and do anything that actually moves their score heavily. Like you're not going to come in and teach them fractions all of a sudden. Most likely maybe you will, but most likely you're not. So the best, they likely already know what they need to know for the exam. So the best thing that you can do is help them manage their emotions and kind of give them that positive mindset. So maybe it's something as simple as like you notice that they're kind of having negative self-talk, and so you come in and say. Hey, you know, how would you talk to a friend who's going through something like that and kind of putting them in the third person, or coming up with some alternative scenario of like, oh, you know, this person at work is dealing with something that they're really struggling with, but they have this goal. What, what? I kind of told them this. What would you say to them? Or, I don't know, but just like putting them in a more, putting them in your place and making sure that they're evaluating how they talk to themselves, how they have a positive mindset. Is that the mindset that they want going into the test?

When I'm working with a parent that has a teenager, one thing I recommend is for them to start a journal with them. So if I get to meet the parent before they're teenagers, I, as soon as the kid can write, the journal idea can start. But let's say. We're past this. We're at, we're at teenager. Things are stressful, trying to prepare for the next stage of their life. Maybe there's tutoring happening. Starting a journal can help be a way to start these conversations in a way that doesn't feel awkward if it hasn't been in their language before.

Yeah, I love that idea. I think it's so helpful. That also gives them time to sit down and reflect on what am I doing? What do I actually want to do? And it's not just like spur of the moment. Some strategies that I've heard from some parents in the past have been like, Hey, maybe don't sit down and have like a focus conversation on this. Let's just say the dinner table or something, but you're in the car maybe driving them back, and that's kind of when you check in with them, doing it in a more casual way. So there isn't this like pressure on the conversation. I'm not sure how that jives with what you've seen in the past.

That's a good one. Also in the car helps to where they can't run from the conversation. So don't make it a heavy one. Make car conversations where if a kid wanted to just be like, mom, I don't want to talk right now, it's kind of harder to do in the car. So make those lighter and easier conversations and more intro conversations and they do go a lot better. It also helps that usually what. Some of the dynamics of the car is that the parent is in the front seat, so mom's in the front seat driving, so they're not looking at each other. 'cause sometimes that eye contact can make the conversation awkward if they're not agreeing. And so knowing that I'm sitting in the back seat, I'm the teenager, my mom's in the front seat, I can talk without her staring at me, that makes it easier. So that's why car conversations can be very successful with kids. And that just plays into also the journal where the parent can write a question or write some encouraging words. Maybe the test is coming up or a practice test is coming up, or you just know that they've been struggling or whatever. You can write questions to them or write encouragement to them, and then just leave the journal on a nightstand and then it takes off the anxiety or the pressure to have a big conversation, maybe at the dinner table or at the end of the day when. Everyone's tired. You've gone through the whole day like, now I just wanna decompress, but here comes my mom, and now we have to talk. So it can make

it easier. And how do you recommend, so let's say I'm a parent and maybe I write in the journal, like how are you feeling about the upcoming SAT? Do you, does the student, does the child only write in the journal or do you. Recommend. They also acknowledge it in person via conversation or what's in the journal. Is in the journal and that's where we leave it. I

would let the child decide that because some maybe will wanna push like, Hey, did you write back to me? Did you see what I wrote you? And some may not want it brought up at all. It's just like I will write back when I write back whenever you, if a parent starts to journal, I would make the rules together.

Yeah, and that makes a ton of sense. It's also kind of what I recommend when. A child gets their score back. That's also a very stressful time. I mean, so much of this is the journey of the prep, but it all culminates in this moment where they see their score. And I kind of try to tell the parents don't react. Try not to react. Try to let your child react first and let them share their feelings and then respond. What I recommend is kind of having a couple options of, depending on how the score goes, how do you want to respond, whether that's like, it's okay, the outcome for this means X, Y, Z, and like we've already had a plan for this, and that's great. And then the other version is, so much of this journey is in the prep. I've been so proud of you and I, you stuck to your study plan, how you set a goal, how you worked on this. Over the last X number of months, and I'm really proud of you for going in there and facing your fears. And I kind of recommend saying that either regardless of the outcome, but I think that that's really a key learning is just like letting your child, let them respond. Don't let your response over shadow how they're feeling. Um, I think is a really key.

I've had to coach parents on reacting inside and not outwardly. Yes, that's very hard to do. Uhhuh. It really is having to hold it in, but depending on the child, of course, but sometimes parents overreact, but also sometimes they underreact, and so if you can just notice how the child is, let's say the score was supposed to be 28, but it was a 26. So the parent's initial thing is to feel disappointed for their child, but that child is so excited about that 26 because they didn't even think they were gonna get to 28. But if the parent was immediately upset, that can just damper the excitement that the kid is feeling about even making. Right.

A hundred percent. That's exactly right. Your kid has a better insight into how far they can really stretch them, how far, how much work they've done will will result in in whatever score. And so Exactly to the point of, it's probably really happy that they got a 26 and it's great for you to support them and that happiness. And if you really wanted, maybe the next day, maybe a couple days later going, Hey, you know, you made a lot of progress and from maybe a 20 to a 26 that I'm so proud of you. Do you want to try again and keep going? Like you're able to kind of say like, Hey, you're headed in this great trajectory. I'm happy to support you, to keep going in that if you'd like, and removing your expectations from them saying either yes or no, and letting them kind of dictate what they want to do. Because, right. Going back to that shared goal, if they have a goal that they've bought into, they're willing to do whatever it takes to get there.

Okay. Let's say there's a parent who you're recognizing the stress, you're recognizing the strain between mom and and teenager, mom and daughter, and you know that things are not going well and you're just trying to get this kid to the test, whatever the test is. What? How can you help that mom build in some real connection? Let's say you were to sign mom homework, like, okay, over the next four weeks I got testing. I need you to take this. What would you want her to do? And this is an agreeable mom. She's gonna say yes to it. So ideal, perfect world. Yeah.

I've seen this a lot with parents and especially moms who are so well-meaning and want to help their kids, but. Usually where this comes up is mom really wants to help their daughter wants to help their teenager, and it comes off as pushy or micromanaging. And so the homework that I would assign the mom, and as a tutor, I'm always happy to sit down with the mom and the parent and just say, let's have one conversation with our daughter up front that says, okay, I'm gonna be more hands off and I trust that you have this test. You're working with the platform or you're working with a tutor, or you're doing it by yourself, but what is our end goal here? What score are we, are we really wanting to get? And then once we have agreed upon that end score, I'd want to just figure out, okay, what do you think you need teenager or daughter to get there? And they create the plan. They say, I think I need to study an hour a day or an hour a week. And as the mom. You can either kind of agree with that or, or maybe push a little bit harder and say, you know, I hear what you're saying. I support you in that. My advice would be to do X amount more. And if you're okay with that, let's make that the plan. And from now on, I'm not gonna ask you every day if you studied or I'm not gonna ask you every week if you studied, I'm gonna trust that you did. And I'm gonna check in regularly to see if there's anything else I can do to support you in that mission. And so it really puts the ball in their court. It says, Hey, I trust you, a student who wants to get the score that you said you wanted to get. You created a plan. My goal is to support you in that plan, not to be a task master and to ask you every single day if you did it, because they have that goal. They need to learn how to be self-motivated. Oftentimes when we talk about test prep, there are goals and or there are lessons rather, that come out of this process that aren't just the end score. There are lessons throughout the way that help your student grow, that they'll use later on in life.

I like it just helping that relationship to be a safe one for the daughter to express disappointment or just frustration maybe around the test. Not one where she has to see herself as bad. This is just the test.

So I think a main part of the homework is really just supporting your child more emotionally. You know, helping them set up the plan, being an accountability partner. But really your goal, your homework, is to support them emotionally through the process because test prep can be very difficult. Um, students. Sometimes feel like, am I dumb? Is I hate this test, I hate these questions. Why do I have to do this? And so as a parent, I think you can really play an emotional role. And kind of as someone who works with parents and students, I'd love to kind of hear more of what you think. How can a mom support a student emotionally through that process? Being an accountability partner, but really your goal, your homework, is to support them emotionally through the process because test prep can be very difficult and students sometimes feel like, am I dumb? Is I hate this test, I hate these questions. Why do I have to do this? So as a parent, I think you can really play an emotional role and kind of as someone who works with parents and students, I'd love to kind of hear more of what you think. How can a mom support a student emotionally? Yeah. I think helping

them to change how they talk about themselves. If they're frustrated with the test, let them be frustrated with the test and don't change how they're talking about it. But if they're talking about themselves as stupid or themselves is not good enough, change that language and separate them from the test. Make sure that they're not talking down on them or who they are because this is a difficult test and. Helping them like shine and highlight the areas in their life where they are really good. And then being able to say that this test is just a little bit hard for me. It's making me have to work harder. It's making me have to stretch a little bit more, but I'm capable of doing it even though I think the test is stupid. So if parents can build connection in that and create language that the child can use to just separate themselves from whatever is happening, whatever test they're taking, whatever they're preparing for, that will create more confidence in their teenager and also build trust between the two of them. I love that. And just taking away the expectation that everyone is supposed to have the highest score, like they're not, there's a range for a reason because everybody's not gonna score perfect. And so that 24 may be the celebration of, Hey, what restaurant do you wanna go to? I'm buying you a gift and we're going to celebrate this 24 because oh my god, for you, this is huge. And just being proud of the ability of your child because what is the highest a CT score? It's a 36. Okay. Everybody's not getting a 36. They're just not. So only celebrating top scores would just be a disservice because we're not all good test takers. Yeah. I enjoyed this conversation. This was, this is different and the partnership idea builds so much trust between mom and daughter. The child wants to know that they're trusted. They're trusted to make decisions. They're trusted to fix mistakes. They're trusted to, to know that what they want for their life is good, and if they're brought into partnership with their parents and making decisions when appropriate, of course that trust just gets so much stronger. Do you have any last words or anything that you want to just leave the listener with?

I think test prep is inherently a stressful process, but instead of thinking about it like just an end score goal, I would really encourage moms and teenagers to think about it as a journey where there are several lessons that they can use later on in life throughout this process and this journey that they're on. I think oftentimes it can be very helpful if the mom, the parent, comes at test prep as more of an emotional support partner, as a goal oriented partner, versus just coming in to kind of micromanage the process and, and really put pressure on the kids. Instead, play a role where you can relieve pressure and kind of advise your teenager through the process. I'm always kind of here to help any mom or uh, teenager through the process. You can find me on LinkedIn. My name's Athena Sabino. You can email me at Athena at top, marks PrepCom. Feel free to go to top Marks Prep, and if you're a teenager is someone who's studying for the A CT or SAT and this kind of a self-study, we give you a diagnostic and then we every day will update their study plan. It's an adaptive technology. So as they continue to practice, we update their study plan, their strengths and weaknesses. But this whole study process is structured for them with the end goal of, of meeting whatever target score that they're going for. So always happy to help and feel free to reach out at any time.

Well, thank you so much for recording this episode with me.

Thank you so much for having me. It was so nice to talk to you and kind of hear another perspective on the emotional side of the mother-daughter, mother, teenager relationship that hopefully will help students as they and mothers as they prep through, uh, this process.

That's all for today's episode of the Mother-Daughter Relationship Show. Thanks so much for spending this time with me. I hope you picked up some valuable insights that you can start using right away in your own relationship to create deeper connection and understanding. If something from today's episode resonated with you, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with the mother or daughter in your life who needs to hear this message. And while you're at it, please consider leaving a rating. And review so we can reach more families and transform the way mothers and daughters relate to each other. For those ready to take the next step, you can visit my website to learn more about my private coaching programs and my program designed specifically for mother-daughter pairs. Whether you're dealing with communication challenges, life transitions, or just wanna strengthen an already good relationship, I'm here to help. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you in the next one.