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My name is Marcus Miller, also known as Prophat Cat on TikTok and Instagram and other social media.

I'm an air traffic controller.

I work at Houston center, so I'm a radar controller and I don't speak for the FAA or for natca.

These opinions are my own.

AV Nation what is going on?

And welcome back to the Pilot the Pilot Podcast.

My name is Justin Seams and I am your host.

Today's episode is with Prop Hat Cat, not Prop Hat atc, which I objectively think it should be, but Prop Hat Cat, which we get an explanation later in this podcast but is anything and everything atc.

So there are gonna be a lot of questions and I actually told Marcus.

I was like Marcus, dude, we should probably do this more often.

So maybe we'll have A recurring ATC podcast where we can answer your question.

We can see and have some dialogue between ATC and a pilot just so we can clear some things up.

But I think it's very helpful, you know, like, what do you see when an airplane's talking to you?

What's your least favorite thing a pilot does?

What happens when you give out a phone number?

I even asked him how many phone numbers he gave out, which his answer did surprise me.

And I won't tell you what it is.

You'll have to wait to listen to find out.

But I appreciate Marcus for coming on.

It's always great to talk to someone who truly loves their job.

So many ATC controllers, you know, your only interaction with them is.

Is talking to them over the air.

So it's fun to get to know someone.

It's fun to hear their background and hear about their training, because their training is tough.

It is intense.

AV Nation.

I hope you really do enjoy this podcast.

And if you do, you can subscribe to the podcast.

You can follow us on Instagram.

Check out the magazines.

I don't know if this is going to make the video part, but we actually did check out the YouTube because we do have a pretty cool background.

With all my magazines up, not all of them.

I mean, there's like 50 of them up, which I have like 1200 pounds in my garage now because shipping issues, to say the least.

We are going to ship out the magazines.

I. I say we.

I am going to ship out the magazine myself.

I think the first hundred orders have been shipped and then the rest will be up to me.

So I just got the magazines in.

They should be being shipped out hopefully tomorrow.

I say this on January 13th.

So hopefully January 14th, January 15th, I will ship out the rest of the orders.

Might take me all day, but we're going to do it.

And I can't wait for you guys to see the magazine, hold it in your hand and share it because.

Because I need word of mouth.

Word of mouth is really going to tell people how great this magazine is and how nice it is.

So if you have any reviews for the magazine, let me know.

I'm going to activate the reviews on the website as soon as people start getting the magazine in their hands just so I can make sure it's people that actually order the magazine that are leaving reviews.

But I really hope you enjoy it.

And this is the first time you hear about a magazine.

That's right.

Re released the magazine.

13 articles, 13 podcasts.

The podcasts are a little bit different than the articles themselves.

So you're going to want to make sure that you listen to the podcast and read the article and.

And the photos are sick.

We're currently working on volume two of the magazine, so it is a quarterly magazine.

You can sign up@piloterpilothq.com Mag Aviation I don't want to take up any more of your time, so any further ado, here's Marcus from Prop Hat Cat.

Marcus, what's going on, man?

Welcome to the Pilot the Pilot podcast.

Hey, thanks so much for having me.

This is.

This is awesome.

Yeah, man.

It's a.

It's been a long time since I've had anyone ATC related or just someone that was the last person I had.

They actually were a pilot first.

So they flew for the regionals and then they're like, you know what?

I think I like being home more.

I'm gonna go be an air traffic controller.

That was probably eight years ago, so a lot has changed.

You know, there's people probably have more questions.

I'm sure we can kind of talk about what the process was, but we'll start out with, I guess one question I'm interested in is, are you a pilot too, or are you just a controller?

You know, I have about seven hours in a Skyhawk.

And, you know, originally I started out, as I'm sure a lot of people did, starting on flight simulators and doing things like that.

And I got into.

Into the tiny airplanes and I figured out that I get airsick in tiny airplanes pretty, pretty quickly.

Of course, I was learning to fly in Texas in the summer, so that probably wasn't the most conducive environment to fly.

But I still love aviation and I still wanted to be a part of it, even if the flying thing wasn't, even if my body was rejecting the flying aspect of it.

And so I kind of got interested in air traffic control and I guess kind of the rest is history there.

It's awesome.

It's something that I've wanted to do since the eighth grade, so it's really cool to finally achieve that goal.

You wanted to be an air traffic controller since eighth grade?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you?

I don't say this because, like, trying to like, minimize that, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they wanted to be an air traffic controller since they're in eighth grade.

Yeah.

Nobody wakes up one day and is like, I want to be an air traffic controller.

Yeah, yeah.

It's what you did and you did it.

So kudos to you.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's pretty cool to kind of look back on my life and see how these different steps have led me to, to this job and to this career and to where I am now.

So goal was pilot, took a couple flight lessons, realized not gonna work for you.

Yeah.

Then what led into atc?

Were you just like, I love aviation so much, I just want to be a part of it.

So that could be, you know, working at the airport, it could be working at the ramp.

It could be kind of just looking into all jobs that are aviat.

Kind of talk about how you led down this path.

Yeah.

So eighth grade started.

I got flight simulator 10 FSX.

I'm sure a lot of people have used that and really loved kind of the multiplayer aspect of that.

Met some people on there.

And then there was an air traffic control kind of thing that you could do.

So that led me to kind of researching more into how can I do more air traffic control esque stuff with Flight Simulator that led me to Vatsim.

I don't know if you're familiar with that.

It's the Virtual Air Traffic Controller Simulation Network.

And so I started that eighth grade, ninth grade.

And that's kind of been kind of what inspired me to do this because like, wow, this is actually like, I'm okay at this.

You know, I'm not terrible.

I like reading these regulations.

I like doing this stuff.

I like controlling these airplanes, these fake airplanes.

Right.

And actually I kind of have two passions.

One is aviation and air traffic control, and the other is like musical theater and acting and theater stuff in general.

So I originally started out getting a BFA in musical theater.

And then I was like, you know what?

The starving artist life probably isn't for me.

I like to eat too much.

And so I think I'm going to try.

I'm going to pivot and do this, this air traffic thing because I've been doing it since the eighth grade.

I went to college for a little bit for theater.

And then I was like, well, what if I can actually be a controller?

You know, this has always been kind of just like my hobby that I did behind the scenes.

But then I was like, what if I can actually like do this as a career?

And so I kind of looked into it and a big aspect of my life is I just keep doing things until somebody tells me no.

Right.

I just keep like, can I do this?

Yeah, sure.

How about this?

Okay.

And this?

All right.

And then I'm at Houston center controlling airplanes.

And it's.

It's Kind of, it's, it's pretty surreal really.

Going from controlling.

So my mom used to own a bakery and we didn't have Internet at the house.

So the, the bakery computer is the computer that I use to control airplanes on, you know, 13, 14, 15 year old Marcus selling cupcakes in between clearances, you know, which, which there.

You guys still there?

Yeah.

Hang on.

We got a big order.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All aircraft stand by.

I've gotta help somebody take this wedding cake out to their car.

But my mom was very supportive of it.

Supportive of it.

And you know, she's working of the day, so I was just hanging out at the bakery.

Controlling airplanes.

Yeah, but it's kind of like the Enders game thing where people would come in and be like, is this real?

Are they, is this kid actually like controlling airplanes?

Like.

No, no, no, no.

It's, it's, it's all fake.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, well that's true.

That's.

Yeah.

Ender didn't know that.

Right.

All of a sudden is real.

Yeah.

So that's kind of game.

What a book, man.

Yeah.

What a throwback.

Love the movie.

Movie.

And so that's kind of what I guess got me into air traffic control.

And then I went to, I went to Letourneau University for aviation management and air traffic control concentration.

And I loved it.

You know, I was not a very strong high school student.

I was terrible in math and terrible and all this stuff.

And then you go to college and you actually are doing stuff that you are interested in and that you want to be a part of and that you are like actively want to have a job in it.

It helps your motivation, I think, to do better there.

And you know, the air traffic control program there was really small and so you got a lot of one on one help.

My teacher was a former controller and I just, I just loved that whole college life experience kind of thing.

And there's something to kind of finding your passion, right?

And everyone finds their passion at different times in life.

It could be in middle school, could be in high school, could be after college, it could be 40 years old.

Be like, hey, I want to be a pilot.

Cool.

Found it.

Let's go.

Yeah.

But you'll realize when you finally find that passion, you have kind of a spark for learning, right?

Like you want to be everything and anything about it.

Like reading the paper, reading a magazine, have to say the magazine.

It's not really this magazine, but you just like, you like to read the stuff, you like to be involved and you and you realize that, you know, I wasn't dumb, I wasn't a bad student.

Well, maybe you're a bad student.

Maybe I was bad student.

But like, once you find what you're interested in, like, sky's the limit.

So if you historically are struggling in school, if you don't like what you're doing and you just realized you haven't found what you like, like, don't let that think that you can't do something.

You can still totally do it.

For sure, you need to find what it is, which is much easier said than done.

Right.

Not everyone has the ability to know they're going to be an air traffic controller or be a pilot at a young age.

But if once you find it, you know, you just.

Just go all in, Just go out until you.

Like you said, someone tells you you cann this anymore.

It's like, all right, I took this as high as I can go.

This is it.

Yeah, but that's really cool.

And shout out to your mom too, right?

I think I have a four year old at home.

So there's something about like fostering an environment for learning, fostering an environment for your kid to kind of figure out what they want to do.

Yeah.

Because, you know, obviously every parent has an idea of what their kid might do, but understanding that that's probably not going to happen, your kid's probably not going to follow your footsteps to a T. They could, they could, they might.

You never know.

But they could choose something else.

Like your mom's probably never thought you're going to be an air traffic controller.

Maybe she thought you' to be a baker or musical theater like you said, but here we are.

Yeah, it's.

It's definitely.

I'm very fortunate to have her as my mom for sure.

Absolutely.

So letourno, I knew, I think two people that went to letourneau, but yeah, Letourneau is a pretty big.

It's a Christian aviation school.

Yeah, they like to say it's.

Yeah, they like to say it's the Christian Polytechnic University.

Okay.

The, like, I went to Ohio State.

We are.

Yeah, the Ohio State.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It might be a lawsuit there.

You gotta be careful using the.

Yeah, it's.

It's a really big aviation and engineering school.

A lot of.

I think the girl to guy ratio is like 6 to 1 or guy to girl ratio, I guess.

Yeah.

So you're not going to find the love of your life there.

Well, education majors, you know that we had a joke ring by spring, you know, so.

Oh, you're an education major.

I need a wife.

That was, that was the joke.

That's pretty funny.

But no, I, I thoroughly enjoyed my time there and, you know, a lot of my friends were pilots in the, in the aviation program and a lot of them are now, you know, they've.

I've been out of it for so long.

They were at the regionals, now they're at the main lines.

And so it's, it's cool sometimes because they'll be flying through and they'll be like, hey, is this Marcus?

I'm like, oh, hey, this is Josh.

Like, awesome.

Cool.

It's like, that's so cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I got to put you back on route.

Sorry, I got a traffic management route to.

I didn't like you, by the way.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool, man.

So Letourneau.

So Letourneau has a specialized ATC course there.

They did, they did.

In 2018.

They kind of shut it down because the FAA changed a lot of their hiring policies or whatever.

It's just been a really big.

The FAA doesn't know what they want and so all the other places don't know what they want.

But now I think they've kind of come into maximum hiring.

All this stuff.

These enhanced CTI programs are now kind of taking place because used to.

So CTI was the collegiate training initiative and it was basically a partnership between the FAA and these colleges.

And basically the FAA said, here's the academy material for basics.

The basics course.

It's a four week course at Academy in Oklahoma City.

And you can teach this in a two year associate's degree.

Okay, cool.

You.

You pass the CTI program and you basically get a Skip basics at the academy and go straight into either a terminal track, which is like tower and tracon, or the enroute track, which is what I did.

So it's kind of supposed to save the FAA money because now they don't have to train people at basics.

And it's supposed to save you time because now you can just go straight into the thing.

Instead of a three month program, it's a two month program.

And so that was the idea behind the CTI program.

And then 2018, 2019 came around and they're like, well, we're not really going to give any priority to CTI graduates now.

Everybody's just going to be either off the street or military.

Okay, cool.

So that kind of, you know, all these colleges who have spent a lot of money developing these radar labs and tower labs and stuff like that, now they're kind of like, well, I guess we're going to pivot.

And now our radar lab, our tower lab is a UAS lab.

So teaching drone stuff, which is perfectly fine.

You know, ultimately I think that was a good move on their part.

But now the FAA's come back and be like, okay, now we have enhanced cti, which is basically teaching Academy both academy basics and the terminal or and the enroute track at the college.

So you don't even have to go to Oklahoma City now you're evaluated by FAA evaluators on your eval day.

It's kind of like a dpe.

You know, I did my dispatch course as well, so we had like a dispatch person that would come in.

It's very similar to that.

And once you pass your cti, your ECTI program, you're basically direct hired to a facility.

So you no longer have to go to academy.

You can basically go now train to be an air traffic controller at a facility.

So it's supposed to help with the throughput of academy because now you don't have to go there.

And it's supposed to, you know, save money for the FAA because now they're not having to pay you to go there.

Right.

You're paying to get this certification.

But sure, they love that.

Yeah, but you know, it's a guaranteed job if you pass.

You know, like now you still have to pass all the pre employment stuff.

There's a security clearance and a medical background and psychological evaluation and you still have to take the at, so which is like the air traffic Standard aptitude test something or other.

So you still have to do all of the employment stuff leading up to the academy, but you just don't have to go to the academy now because you did it at your college and you know, it's a two year degree or maybe a three year degree at a college, whereas it's a three month program at the academy.

So if you weren't successful at the academy because it was just, it's just so information overload and you don't have time to forget things because you can't now it's giving people who maybe need a little bit more time to understand the material, time to understand the material which will hopefully make them successful and then you get to your facility and you are hopefully successful there.

Yeah.

Do you think that anyone, is that like a track, is that possible to go to the academy then go to college and try it or do you think there's kind of like a black mark or like a, there's a You're probably, you're not getting hired because you've washed out of the facility or not of the facility at the academy.

I really don't know.

It's such a new thing.

I don't, I don't know of anybody who's done that yet.

Now, there is another thing called Advanced atc, which is kind of like you get your Control Tower operator certificate, it's a contractor where you get your CTO so you can work at one of their contract towers.

You get 52 weeks of experience there, and then you can be direct hired to the FAA because you just need 52 weeks of control tower experience.

Okay.

I have heard people who have failed Academy and did that, and now they're at a contract tower about to flow to the FAA and a federal tower.

So there, there's ways around failing Academy.

It's not the end of the world.

And, you know, it's, it's hard.

Academy is intentionally hard because that is basically the interview process for this job.

I.

So I had three interviews whenever I worked at Chick Fil A. I had three interviews whenever I worked at Chick Fil A. I had no in person interviews for the faa.

The Academy is basically your in person interview to see if you can do the job or not.

And that's basically what it is.

If you make 70 or above, you can do the job.

Theoretically, if you make below 70, you can't do the job.

And so good luck.

Next.

You know, it's, it's, it's very point value based as opposed to personality or personable based, which, you know, for a customer service job is an interesting metric to retain and hire people with.

Right?

Yeah.

And so then you get people who are not.

Don't have the best people skills as controllers, which is fine.

You don't have to have a good people skill.

But I'm sure you've flown with controllers who are really happy and go lucky.

And you're like, wow, this is a great place to fly.

And you've flown with people who are like, why are you talking to me?

Get off my frequency.

I know radar service, Terminator.

I'm sorry, I literally have to do this right now.

Yeah.

Would you rather me not talk to you right now?

Yeah.

And so I don't know.

I think the, the personality is such a big deal with air traffic controllers that a lot of people don't think about.

And doing the job is, I mean, obviously the job.

Being able to do the job, but also being able to, like, enjoy your time that you're controlling airplanes.

And being able to enjoy the people that you're around goes a long way because you're working with those people for a long time.

And so you want people who are personable or at least aren't sandpaper, you know, very abrasive, very rough and coarse because, you know, you get to change frequencies.

I gotta work with these people for the next 25 years, you know?

Absolutely.

So you didn't have to go to the academy doing letourneau.

I'm sorry, say that again.

You did not have to go to the academy since you went to letourna.

No, I did.

Yeah, you did.

Okay.

So you did have to.

Okay, yeah.

The ecti thing is really, really new, like, in the past year.

All right, so letourno academy, did you feel like having that training and doing what you did at letourneau?

Do you think that set you apart and made it much easier?

Or at the end of the day, is it still like, man, this is a lot of information in three months to try to get this all done?

So at letourneau, we just had a tower and a tracon simulator, and I got hired to be a center controller.

And they are two completely different things.

But letourneau teaches you how to read the SOPs, how to read LOAs, how to understand FAA questions, and how to study, which is super important at the academy, I basically.

So I graduated letourneau.

I worked for them for a year teaching dual credit aviation classes, and then I got my firm offer letter to go to the academy.

I told letourneau, hey, I'm going to the academy.

Okay, cool.

I was unemployed for a week, and then I went to the academy.

So it was basically straight from higher education to higher education.

There are some people in my class who are 29, 30 who had been out of college for so long that they had forgotten how to study.

They had forgotten how to actually retain and learn information, which you don't think about.

But whenever you've been out of education for so long, I get it right?

You do the same thing every day.

You.

You work at, you know, I don't know, what's a.

What's a boring cubicle job?

And you're just typing in spreadsheets all day.

It's like you're not really learning anything.

You're not.

You're not stretching those muscles to learn.

And so I think going straight from college to academy was helpful because my brain was still mushy in terms of being able to retain information.

But it didn't really help with the enroute side of stuff, because it was all new, which maybe was a benefit because I didn't have to unlearn any bad habits.

So pro and con, I think.

Yeah, honestly, I think Vatson helped a lot, too, because I kind of knew the phraseology.

I kind of knew what all of this stuff was going into it, because you get out of it.

You get out of that's in what you put into it.

If you want it to be super realistic, you can make it be super realistic.

If you don't want it to be, you don't have to be.

But if you're training to do.

To be like a controller, then you want to be realistic.

Right.

And so whenever you're actually doing this stuff, you're training like you're going to play.

Right.

Same thing in football, same thing in hockey, same thing in whatever.

Right.

You're practicing like you're going to play.

And so I think practicing since the 8th grade kind of helped me with academy.

I knew I was going to pass.

I was not.

I was not worried about not passing.

I was worried about my non radar, because I had no clue how to do that.

So you knew what to say, when to say it.

You just didn't know what the fixes were going to be.

Yeah, yeah.

Now you're.

Now you're adapting.

You're adapting to what the FAA wants you to regurgitate.

There's a big line at the FAA or at the academy that's like the wall is blue.

You just do it because they're telling you to do it.

This way you don't have to understand why.

You don't have to understand.

You don't have time to understand why.

You just do it.

Right.

Excuse me.

Very good.

You give them, you know, hold southeast of the.

Of the Vicksburg radio beacon, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Why do we say that?

Well, you don't.

You don't care.

You're just saying the phraseology to this airplane because that's what you have to do.

Yeah.

Whereas now in the real world, I like to understand why I'm saying this, and I like to understand what the context is behind this.

That's kind of why I like doing this Instagram stuff and stuff, this TikTok stuff, because that allows me to continue to learn and not just say it, because we're saying it right.

And then it helps me demystify it to myself and hopefully demystify it to other people because they, you know.

I.

Think I'm jumping ahead a little bit.

But, you know, a lot of pilots you know, you're training in a class Delta or class Charlie, and then you're doing a cross country where maybe you talk to center for a little bit.

But until you're like an airline pilot, an airline first officer captain, you're not talking with the center until you're actually flying people in the back of the plane.

And so the instruction that I'm giving you may be the first time you've ever heard that instruction before.

And I think that's crazy to think about.

Right.

Like, you're flying all these paying people and you've never heard the string of words before in your life.

Yeah.

And so me being able to explain what I'm saying to people maybe before they get to that situation or they were in that situation and now they can decipher.

Oh, that's what they meant by that helps them become more situationally aware in the cockpit, I would hope.

Oh, for sure.

And I think it is helpful.

See, when you get an explanation, right, you're like, all right, we'll hold and blah, blah, blah.

I mean, I used to fly corporate.

It's like, yeah, because probably teter bro's all backed up, San Francisco socked in, and they're not taking any more GA aircraft.

All right, cool.

So now we know.

We know why.

Now we know.

All right, I got this much fuel.

I got a plan for this.

I should probably say, hey, we got to go somewhere else.

Yeah.

I think there's a really easy, I don't want to say cop out, but it's really easy to forget that the people flying the airplanes are people.

And it's also really easy to forget that the controllers controlling the planes are people.

Right.

At the end of the day, we're all human.

And so communication is such a vital part of this job.

And if we can streamline or at least help somebody understand this communication better and to be more efficient and to be safer, then I think that that just makes the national airspace system safer altogether.

And that's, that's really what I'm striving to do with my channel and all this stuff.

Now you get the funny things like meowing on guard and stuff like that.

But at the end of the day, I really hope that pilots and aviation enthusiasts and I mean even air traffic control, because I don't know everything, you know, I, I hope that people take home little tidbits that they can remember and help make them a better or safer or at least a more aware pilot of, of what's going on.

So you mentioned, like, obviously letourno you did tower stuff and you did en route, Is that what you said, like approach, TRACON stuff?

Yeah, sorry.

And then so now you got hired to do center.

Was that not what you wanted?

Was that like, how did that, Was it just like, I want to be in the Houston area, but this is all that's available.

Kind of talk about how you got placed where you did.

Yeah.

So the FAA has a very, very sophisticated system on determining if you're going to be a terminal controller.

So a tower TRACON or an inroot controller.

And that system is, there's a spreadsheet of all of the people who have applied and they go down and they say, terminal enroute, terminal enroute, enroute, enroute, terminal, terminal enroute, enroute, terminal.

It's, it's just whatever, it's.

You go wherever you want to go, wherever they tell you to go.

Okay, cool.

And so whenever I first got the center, I was kind of disappointed.

You know, I think everybody wants to be in the tower, everybody wants to look at the airplanes, but then you look at the paycheck that center controllers make and you're like, it's a little bit, it's, it's.

Starting off, you're making more than a tower controller.

Starting off.

Tower controllers definitely have to play the game of tower, like Game of Thrones, game of towers, where you're going from a low level tower to a mid level tower to a high level tower.

Whereas center, the lowest center is a level 10.

So there's different ratings of federal facilities.

I think that lowest federal tower is a four.

Okay.

And the highest is a 12.

So four would be.

I don't know, I, I can't even think of a 4.

But like a 12 would like beat DFW or Denver or something like that.

Right.

The lowest level center is a 10, and that is Guam.

No, Guam is an 8.

Actually.

Guam's like a weird, a weird hodgepodge.

Yeah, yeah.

Guam's Guam, San Juan.

San Juan Salt Lake, I think is a 10 anyway.

But you're starting up at a higher level than you would for a tower.

That's, I guess, the takeaway there.

Yeah.

And most of the time you go to a center and you're basically going to be there your whole career, because training on the center, you do a lot more, a lot more stuff.

It takes about two or three years to certify at a center, whereas at a tower it's six to eight months, depending on the complexity of the tower.

So it's a faster checkout, but you have to go to more towers and you have to certify more if you want to keep getting pay raises.

Right.

Excuse me.

Whereas at center, you know, Houston's a level 11.

And so the next spot up would be Fort Worth or level 12, but then I'd have to restart training.

And training sucks because every single decision that you make is critiqued, right?

Because people's lives are literally in your hands.

And so once you get certified, you're just kind of like, do I want to do that?

Do I not?

I'm just going to stay here and control my airplanes as long as I can.

Does certifying mean you truly need to memorize every single inch of your airspace?

Is it like you have to know, like, I do, you draw.

I don't know why I think somebody said this at one point, but, like, you have to be able to redraw the whole sector and know where everything is.

Perfectly radial.

Everything Is that like you have to memorize everything.

Yeah.

So.

So you graduate academy, and depending on your.

Sorry to go back to the thing.

And it'll lead into this, you graduate academy, and depending on your class rank, you get to pick off a list.

So if you're first in class, you get to pick first off the list, second in class, etc.

Etc.

So I was second in class, subtle flex, and Houston was on the list.

I'm from Dallas, so it was like, it's just close enough away that my mom can't surprise me with a visit, but I can go home if I need to.

Right.

And so I chose Houston.

It was great.

So you go to your facility and then you're there for the rest of your career, obviously.

But you're in the training department between four, six, eight months, learning maps, diagrams, SOPs, LOAs, frequencies, and there's like, different.

Different stages of training.

So stage two, I think, is.

Is A side.

So learning.

It's weird because my.

My area doesn't really use A sides.

A sides is like flight strip distribution and flight data.

So taking flight plan information, putting it into the computer.

A lot of our sectors border Mexico.

And so our computer system and Mexico's ATC computer system don't play well together sometimes.

So we have to take manual flight plans and put them into the computer.

And that's kind of what the A side is doing.

And then you get what's called a D side.

And the D side is the radar associate position is like the deputy controller.

So if you think about a radar scope.

Right.

So you have A radar scope.

To the left or to the right of the radar scope is a computer window that's called the edst, the Enroute decision support Tool.

And that has the electronic flight strips on it.

And the D side is responsible for the electronic flight strips and doing coordination with other controllers and doing stuff like that.

So my airspace has five sectors, so we have five D sides.

You have to get certified on each D side before you can start training on the R side.

So you do your D side labs, which is still upstairs, then you go down to the floor and you start training.

So from academy graduation to actually on the floor training D side, it can take six months, eight months, maybe a year, depending on the backlog of training.

I think New York has like a two year wait to get to a D side class.

Oakland, maybe a little bit sooner.

Just depends on how many people are there.

So then you train on your D sides and then once you're done with your D side, you go back upstairs and you train for your R sides.

So you already know the maps, you already know the diagrams and yeah, you need to know the boundaries, you need to know all the other sectors that are around you.

Altitude stratums, airways that are pertinent.

So if you have an airway that's in an SOP or airway that's in an loa, you need to know that kind of stuff.

But we can pull up the airways on our map.

Like we don't have to memorize where they are.

You do whenever you're drawing the map because you have to do it by memory.

But a lot of that information is just depicted on the radar scope anyway.

Same thing with fixes.

The fixes that you use day to day are going to be on the radar map as well.

And there is a way to pull up all of the fixes, but there's hundreds of thousands of them, so it would just kind of be inundated with too much stuff on the radar scope.

So you go back upstairs, you train our side, our side labs, which is basically fake airplanes telling them what to do.

And then you go to the floor and you start training our side with an instructor plugged in, obviously.

And you're training our sides on all five of those sectors.

And once you're certified on all five of those sectors, then you are a certified professional controller and you do the job until you retire, I guess, which.

Is 60 or 57.

We have to retire at 56.

56.

It's mandatory retirement at 56 for now.

Yeah.

Who knows?

Oh, man.

Yeah.

We obviously won't get into politics or anything like that.

When you are fully released.

All right, you did.

I mean, you said, what a side D side R side.

Like, this is all new terminology to me, but you have finally done all three of those.

You have.

We'll even say your first day with an instructor.

What's, like, your feeling of being on the floor?

Like, all right, hey, Marcus, you ready, dude?

Plug in.

Let's go.

And then, like, you hear me?

Like, hey, blah, blah, blah, blah.

We're climbing, like.

Or is there like, a rush of emotion?

Are you, like, do you freeze?

Like, your first radio car, you're just like.

And they go step over you?

Like, talk to me about, like, the first moment you had to.

I mean, you did Vatsim.

You've done this at Letourneau, so I'm guessing you felt pretty comfortable.

Yeah, just talk about kind of the emotions and the feelings of, like, you're in charge.

You're controlling aircraft with, you know, some 300 people on them.

Some of them, like, just talk about that, I think.

Yeah, it's kind of surreal because that's what I've been working for since the eighth grade.

So to finally achieve that and to be in that moment talking to actual planes is.

It's really cool.

It's a really cool.

It's a really cool feeling.

And actually, speaking of my first day on the job training our sides, I had a commute Air aircraft departing Houston going somewhere to Mobile or golf port or something, and this VFR guy departed Beaumont and wasn't talking to anybody.

And he was like, spiral climbing up, and he basically almost hit the commute air, like, first day.

First day almost had a near mid air.

Are you looking at your screen like, this guy?

Yeah, this guy.

What's this guy doing?

And they missed by 0.19 miles and 100ft.

The commuter pilot said he could read the tail number.

And so you get, like.

I learned my first day how close airplanes can get not actually hit.

And I have never wanted to experience that ever again in my life.

Right now it's vfr.

As long as the paint doesn't scratch, it's not.

It's not a thing.

Right.

And so it was just like, wow, that's.

That's crazy.

But again, that goes back to kind of why I'm passionate about doing this pilot outreach stuff.

Right.

If that pilot would have known, hey, this is a big departure corridor for Houston, right?

Don't.

Don't.

If you would have been, like, 50 miles to the east or, like, 20 miles to the east.

It wouldn't have been that big of a problem because they would have all been climbing over you but not talking to anybody.

One big proponent of flight following and you know, you're a high wing Malibu, you can't see above you or I don't, I don't know what he was.

He was a high wing something.

He couldn't see the plane that he was climbing into.

Yeah, like, like that, I guess gives me more of a reason to, to keep wanting to do this because if I can help people be more situationally aware, then hopefully that doesn't happen again.

Right.

Hopefully that doesn't happen to anything.

Well, it takes experience for that pilot too.

Right.

Like you don't know the experience level.

Like all he knows, like, there's so much going on in a cockpit.

It's like he's probably putting together, like climbing, flying, like, I'm doing it all.

And then to understand, like your doctorate degrees and you finally understand.

All right.

All right, here's Houston, here's Beaumont.

Planes are flying into Houston.

There must be a route that they're doing.

Yeah, this is probably where they're coming in over or like, oh, this is where they always do those routes.

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I've always, always wanted a plane from Textron Aviation.

My dream plane is a 182, maybe a 206.

So hopefully in the next couple years we can make that happen.

But shout out Textron Aviation and as I said, make sure you go to txtav.com I was doing aerial survey.

I was not flying.

Oh, You're a survey guy.

I was.

And we had the contract for Texas where we actually had a letter from the senator, Congress, whatever it was.

We had to take a picture of every square mile of Texas, including approach corridors, arrivals, everything at 4,000ft.

Oh, my God.

So we had to go.

I remember going to DFW and being like, hey.

Like, I.

We.

We call ahead of time.

We call.

We give them the flight plan, everything that they're like, all right, perfect.

Come at this time, it may work out.

And, you know, you.

You call DFW tower, they're gonna be like, no, get the heck out of here.

And you have to be like, dude, I have authorization from, I don't know, whoever.

Whoever it was, like, the government that I have to do this.

And then they yell at you.

You're just, like, in a corner just, like, crying.

And then they're eventually like, all right, you got two minutes to go.

Do it.

Do it now.

And then if you don't get the picture, it's like, I got to go back.

And I'm like, get out of here.

Yes.

Anyways.

But I was flying Aero Survey in Charlotte.

I remember we're just, like, at 10:5, just, like, right above their.

Their Bravo airspace.

And we were monitoring, but we didn't really understand the complexity that Charlotte is and what it involved.

And we were just like, hey, we're out of the airspace.

We got to be fine.

And there.

Eventually they're like, hey, who's the plane flying at 10 5?

Are you listening?

And we're like, yes, it's us.

They're like, why aren't you talking to us?

We need to know what you're doing.

And it's like, technically we're doing anything wrong.

I don't know if we're at 10 5, so I don't remember what the airspace is exactly, but we were out of the airspace, so technically weren't doing anything wrong.

We were in the means of VFR flying.

But they just would prefer.

And you would have preferred to be talking to that person 1.

Because you don't know what that pilot's going to do.

You don't.

I mean, let's say our engine fails and we got to come down.

It's like, yeah, it'd be nice to know what's going on and what your plans are, just so we know you're not going to screw up our arrivals, just so you know.

I mean, there's tons of time I've been coming on arrival.

And they're like, hey, we got this one.

Guy we're not talking to.

We're vectoring everyone 10 miles this way.

And they're like, all right, wait, now he turned that way.

So now we need you to go this way.

And I'm sure that just increases your workload to, to just makes you kind of get you outta your norm.

When you're outta your norm, you know you're, you can miss something else and you're just frustrated.

Yeah, there's a lot going on.

Yeah.

Air traffic controllers don't like surprises.

Yeah, no.

Either do pilots.

Pilots, like, very mundane.

I want, I want a very boring flight.

I don't need to make friends of the controllers.

I don't need to go see you.

I just need to get to point A or get to point B as safe as possible.

Yeah, yeah.

No, for sure.

And yeah, it's funny.

Aerial service air traffic controllers, I think, have a love hate relationship with aerial survey because you're all.

Are always in the spot.

That's like the worst spot that you can possibly be.

And I don't, I don't know how it works, but that's just like the law of air traffic.

If you have an aerial survey is going to be in the worst spot, which, you know, that's your job.

That's what you have to do.

And it's our job to work around you.

But it's a lot easier to work around you if we're talking to you and if we know what you're doing.

Right?

Yeah.

We don't like surprises.

Y' all don't like surprises.

So let's not have any surprises.

Talk to us.

We want to talk to you.

Right.

I mean, now, where I am now, like flying for the airlines, like getting in a small plane, I can't imagine not being an IFR flight plan.

Like, I want to talk or flight following at the least, especially Florida.

I would never fly in the state of Florida without a VFR flight plan or IFR flight plan.

Like, holy smokes.

Once you see TCAs and all the planes that are in that area, it's like, dang, help me, please do not let them hit me.

Yeah.

Florida is crazy wild west.

Yeah.

What kind of getting away from the training part of it, what makes a controller's day like, bad?

You mentioned surprises.

But like, what's like, I don't know if you have a specific instance that you, you can think of.

What's like a bad day for a controller?

The.

That's a good question.

Bad day for a controller.

Is it like weather, like when Houston's getting Shut down with a big line of weather.

It's going all the way from Dallas all the way down to, I don't know, Haran.

Like, is that like a bad day or is that just like, it's fine, pilot, you just vector around it.

I would say, whenever I first got certified, I would say that a big line of weather, worst day, because it's a lot of, it's a lot more work.

But now that you do this, the same line of weather comes through every two weeks, you know, so you just get used to it and you get, you're like, okay, well, here we go.

Everybody's on their thing.

I think whenever, I don't know, it's hard because I like this job so much that it's hard to find, like the negatives that are true negatives.

Right.

Small annoyances.

Oh, my leave wasn't approved.

Oh, blah, blah, blah, we gotta do this.

But like, when you're plugged into a sector, it's almost cathartic because you're just doing the job.

I think frustrating thing is pilots trying to outsmart the system thinking that they're the only ones that have ever tried this before.

Whenever it's, you know, you're going to Aspen, everybody's going to Aspen.

Yeah.

You can't change of destination to Aspen.

I'm sorry, that's just not, that's not how it's going to work.

You're going to Palm Beach.

You can't change the destination to, to Palm beach, right?

Yeah, it's people trying to circumnavigate the, the thing.

It's, it's, it's, it's kind of funny and on our side because it's like, wow, okay, here we go.

This guy's trying to do this.

But it can get kind of annoying sometimes because, you know, you, you know better, you, you or you should know better, you know, and I don't like being the, the negative Nancy here.

I don't like being the quote, unquote, sky cop that people think we are, because we're not cops.

We're just there trying to do our job.

And you know, if I give you change of destination to Aspen now, Aspen controllers are going to be over inundated with people.

And that's not, that's not me being a very good neighbor to Denver and not me being a very good neighbor to Aspen controllers.

Right?

If I allow you to do this, I don't know.

But, but in terms of like, what makes a controller's day bad?

I don't know.

I, I Think some of my co workers would say when their football team loses that, like, that would be their big thing.

But, like, day to day, it's really not, not a thing that we worry about.

It's not a thing because there's so many other things to deal with and there's so many other things we like to be controlling.

We like to have control of what's going on in our immediate area.

And, and so I'm not going to have a thing that makes my attitude bad whenever I'm controlling airplanes.

I'm going to try not to, at least, because that's not safe for y' all and it's not safe for me.

Right, right.

And so I think that would be my answer.

And, and, and knowing that limit is an important aspect of being a controller.

Right.

Knowing knowing your limits, knowing your, your mental health.

I need a mental health day today or something like that because there's such a stigma, I think, behind mental health, especially in the pilot community, especially in the aviation community and air traffic control.

I would imagine that people just fight through it whenever that's not necessarily safe or healthy.

Yeah.

And I think that it's definitely been more in the forefront.

I know there's some legislation going through for pilot mental health.

One of the pilot mental health Council people have reached out to me on TikTok and we're doing some stuff.

And so, yeah, I think understanding your own limits and not letting that affect you, controlling airplanes or you flying airplanes is super important.

And so it doesn't necessarily get to, oh, you're having a bad day today, or this, this makes me mad because hopefully you're not getting to that point.

Right, right.

Do you, can you tell early on if a pilot is going to be like, oh, here we go.

Like, can you tell in the very first call that they made that, like, this is going to be a problem, or does it usually kind of evaluate over time or come up over time?

Yes, you can tell because that's all we do.

All we do all day is listen to pilots.

And so now you, you have call signs right there.

There's a lot of military call signs that fly through Houston, training flights, things like that.

So you kind of understand that they're going to be training.

Right.

And so you go into it knowing these guys are training, so you're a little bit slower.

You, you're trying not to over inundate them with, with this, with information, but sometimes you're just so busy that you just have to get.

You need them to listen and they're not listening.

And you're like, just.

I can't make your ears work any better than they are, so please, just listen, please.

And then you get the instructor key over.

You know, like, all right, here we go.

Okay, cool.

Thank you.

But, yeah, you can.

You can tell.

And especially with, like, certain phraseology, time to climbs are a big one.

So November 1, 2, 3, climb to leave flight level three five zero in four minutes.

Maintain flight level 360.

That read back is super important because if they read it back, all right, we're out of 34 in three minutes up to 36.

Okay, you're confident you're going to make it.

Here we go.

All right, we're out of 30.

I'm sorry, say that again.

Okay.

No, maintain your altitude.

We're not.

We're not.

We're not doing that.

You stay where you are.

Yeah, Yeah.

I don't trust you.

And, you know, different airlines have different stereotypes as well, so.

So just kind of understanding.

Understanding the players and understanding the game, you get more experience with, obviously, as you do this more.

But, you know, if you need a Southwest decline, they're going to climb.

If you need an Aeromexico, well, actually don't need Aeromexicos to do anything.

You move.

You try and move other planes.

I love Aeromexico, but if you can move other planes.

Yeah, they're.

They're fun.

You know, United's gonna.

Gonna want to delete the speeds on the arrival.

Delta's gonna complain about Light shop.

You know, it's a stereotype because it's true.

And, you know, American's gonna want to deviate 800 miles around the thunderstorm.

Okay, cool.

You know, it's.

It is what it is.

It's what everyone does.

It's what everyone does.

And.

And you go into it with that knowledge and with that anticipation that that's what they're going to do.

And you're kind of reading their mind because it's what they all do.

And so they check on.

And before they can even request deviations, you're like, deviation left.

Here you go.

And they're like, oh, wow.

That's what I was just about to ask.

I'm like, I know, I know, I know.

I've done this before.

It's not my first rodeo.

We can read your brain.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What all do you actually see?

So I know some pilots do know this, but, like, all right, I come in, you know, I'm November 1234, whatever it is, transponder on.

What do you actually see?

I'M actually going to put out some videos about data block stuff here in a little bit.

But basically a data block is your airplane, is a little hash, like a little backslash.

And that is your radar ping mode C ping around that hash.

That little slash is a diamond and that is like your target.

So slash and diamond is your airplane.

Connected to that diamond is a data block and that data block has your aircraft ID.

So whatever you file, aircraft ID November 1, 2, 3.

Underneath that is your altitude.

So climbing, descending, VFR, blah, blah, blah.

That is the altitude block.

Excuse me.

Underneath that you have on the left side a computer identification number.

It's a three digit code.

So we talked about flight strips a little bit earlier.

So when you file an IFR flight plan that populates a flight strip.

And the flight strip basically has all of the information about your airplane.

So call sign, aircraft type, altitude, route of flight, beacon code, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And on the bottom of that flight strip you have a computer identification number.

That computer identification number correlates to your data block.

So that's basically how we correlate IFR information with flight strip.

Okay.

And then to the right of that you have your ground speed center.

Air traffic control only sees ground speed.

We don't see indicated, we don't see true, we only see ground speed.

And then underneath that, in the fourth line, you either have aircraft type or destination.

And you can alternate like which one you want to show all the time.

So I normally run destinations, some people run types and I don't understand that because I would like to know where you're going as opposed to what type of airplane you are.

Because we have a little button that we can push that alternates that information anyway.

And then the fourth line also can share heading information.

It can share speed information.

Like if we assign you a heading, we can type it in.

And now it's on your data block.

So we know you're on this heading.

If we assign you a mach number, if we assign you a speed, we can type it in and it's assigned there.

Does that carry over to the next controller?

It does.

Like yeah, center to center, it'll carry over.

Fourth line doesn't transfer to a tracon.

Okay.

Excuse me.

So that's why when you say like check in with your speed.

Yeah, yeah.

So sometimes we'll call and we'll be like, hey, no.

123 is assigned 280 knots.

If we're too busy to make that call, we may ask you to do that.

Got it.

Okay.

Just depends yeah.

Now that's a lot of information on a TRACON data block.

They get, they get aircraft ID altitude that you're at and then speed.

That's basically it.

They can add some more stuff, but like, most of the time that's it.

There's a little letter also associated with that with like a departure gate.

So you depart Houston and you're going east.

It's going to be an E. Let's say, for example, they don't know your airport that you're landing at.

They don't know where you're going.

They just know I have to aim you to the east because that is the direction that you should be going.

So whenever you're flying through a TRACON and they're like, say your destination airport or say your on course heading or whatever, they, they just know what departure gate you're going out of.

They don't know.

They don't have a, like they can run a route line, but it takes them a long time to figure out how to do that.

And so it's easier for them just to ask you, oh yeah, I'm going to three Romeo seven.

Okay, cool, turn right, heading.

Because they know where the airport is.

Yeah.

They just don't know where you're going.

Right.

They just know you're going east.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's, that's a pretty big question that people always ask.

How come tracons never know where I'm going?

Well, it's because that's just a limitation of the, of the computer system.

That's why they're asking you.

Right.

And then they know.

You know, this might be, obviously you can answer this, probably like limited answer to this.

And like this kind of goes to the beginning of the, the podcast.

You're like, I speak for myself, I don't speak for anyone else, but there's been a lot of talk about privatization or just investing in our system.

Investing in the system because truth be told, it's a very old system, right?

Like they, they probably had updates and updates and updates on top of it.

But truth be told, it's still like what, 1960s technology.

It's just gotten a couple, you know, software fixes every once in a while.

What does new technology look like?

Like what?

I don't know if like, like they've talked to different companies about how to privatize it, about how to make it better.

How do you make it better?

Like, what do you do?

Like, is it where you don't have to call ahead?

Is it where you just Type in a line.

AI is involved.

It's like, well, we can't do this because there's 33% of these other airplanes are flying north.

Or like just talk a little bit about what either privatization could look like, which you, you don't have to if you don't want to.

And then also what like the improvement improvements could look like.

Yeah, I can't really talk about privatization partly because I only like talking about stuff that I know about and I really don't know anything about.

Yeah.

And so I don't want to speculate on that now in terms of like the, the new air traffic control system.

Bnacs, bnatcs I think is what they're calling it.

They also haven't told us what they're going to do.

I know we're getting a new voice switching and control system.

I saw a module of that actually at Communicating for Safety this year, which is a big symposium they have in Vegas where basically all the companies that are developing stuff can showcase.

It's like ces but for atc.

Yeah.

And so I got to see the new voice switching thing.

Switching from copper wire to fiber I think is a great thing.

I think having voiceover IP as opposed to ground based transmitters may be a little bit tricky because there's a delay in the.

You like release the button and then it goes to satellite, comes back to the plane.

I only know that firsthand because we talk to a lot of drones that do practice stuff.

And so I'm talking to somebody in Vegas through the, through a link through the drone.

Nothing goes here.

And so it's like a good three or four second delay before they respond, which can be kind of frustrating.

But in terms of like facilities like Houston center was built in 1965.

It's the newest air Route Traffic Control center.

Oh, wow.

Lyndon B. Johnson built it.

It's crazy.

And all the other ones are younger than that.

There's 22 centers and there's 22 centers because back whenever they were being built, it was the middle of the Cold War and they were worried about nuclear bombs and so they didn't want one system to go down because of a bomb.

If they were all like consolidated right now, nukes are so good, it doesn't matter where you have it, you'll just die anyway.

So it doesn't matter if they're consolidated or not.

If I can be so blunt.

But so yeah, there's talk about consolidating into a new air traffic control center.

I don't know where that's going to be.

I don't know what facilities are going to consolidate that too.

We kind of have a running, I don't want to say BET board, but it's kind of like a list of like, oh, what facilities are going to be consolidated into this new place first, you know, like, oh, how are we going to do this?

So whenever you get hired with the faa, one of the big questions that they ask is, are you able to adapt to new technology?

And you know, I think that's a great question.

I mean, just in the time that I've been here, I got hired in 2019.

We got new radar scopes.

Like they're, they were like incandescent CRD or you know, like the old cathode ray tube scopes whenever I first got in.

And now they're digital scopes which are really cool.

CPDLC has been implemented.

We're just about to start full services training on that.

So that's a relatively new thing too.

So there's been so much technologically advanced stuff that, I mean, has been years in the pipeline, but now it's finally getting here.

So it's weird to be like we're going to replace all of it.

Okay, but we're just getting the new stuff, right?

This is the stuff that we need where.

This is the stuff that that is that we've been like building on.

And so, yeah, I don't know what the new stuff is like in the center.

It's hard to know what you need because the stuff that we're working with works most of the time.

The frequencies are the most annoying thing because they'll go down and then you can't hear anybody.

We.

So my airspace borders the ocean, the Gulf frequency, and a lot of their transmitters are voiceover IP on oil rigs.

And so a hurricane blows through, knocks out the oil rig.

Now you can't talk to half the airplanes across the Gulf.

And so I think new communication stuff is definitely needed.

The fiber optics as opposed to copper, I think is definitely needed.

New radar systems, I guess.

Cool.

I don't really like the radar that we have works.

It's cool.

But I mean, obviously they're from the 60s and the 70s, so new radar systems.

Cool.

Yeah.

All for it.

It's kind of like a behind the scenes fix that we don't really see until they fail, you know, and they don't fail very often.

But when they do fail, it takes them a long time because they're old.

And so the companies that built them are no longer in business.

So you can't get parts for them, which I think is interesting.

But.

Yeah, so the new, new radar systems, new communication stuff, I mean, that's.

It's not, it's not over.

Over ambitious, I don't think.

I think it needs to happen.

And now in three years, I think is a pretty ambitious goal.

But I think they're, they're wanting to do something extreme and something needs to happen.

So here you go.

I guess.

What would make your job easier?

Like what, What?

Like day to day would actually could be improved or be easier other than.

More time off, more time, more leave.

This goes with the communication thing.

With the new system, we'll be able to cross couple our frequencies better.

Most facilities are able to cross couple transmitter sites.

What does that mean?

It means I'm working two sectors.

So I'm working two frequencies.

124.7, let's say, and 133.8.

I can have airplanes on both frequencies talking.

And they both go into my ear.

So I can hear both of them talking at the same time.

They don't know that they're stepping on each other.

And so I hear bits and pieces of both conversation.

And I go back and like, okay, who was that talking?

And then they both check on again.

That's, I think, one of the most frustrating parts.

So being for pilots too, right?

Because you're like, I don't know what I'm doing.

Yeah, yeah.

So being able to cross couple 24.

7 to 33.

8 is basically retransmit onto that other frequency.

So the person on 33 can hear the person on 24.

7 talking.

Which I think this new system will work.

The current system in my airspace isn't conducive to cross coupling just because of where the transmitters are and something like that.

They told me it was very highly technical.

And I'm like, okay, so I can't do it.

And they're like, yeah, okay, but I know some places can.

And it's kind of hit or miss sometimes, but.

But I. I think that would be the most beneficial because that is definitely one of the things that we deal with constantly every day.

And that, that brings me back to one of my big points about checking on.

Whenever you check onto a new frequency.

It's not a race.

It's not a race to check on.

Oh, no, it's a race, man.

I have to say it.

As soon as I switch, I go.

Last digit and you're immediately on the button.

Right.

Or you're saying it.

I like to wait three seconds.

I like to wait three seconds, you're.

Saying it on the old frequency as you're switching, and then it goes to the next frequency.

Yeah, yeah.

You better hope you heard everything.

So not saying it twice.

I'm just kidding.

Yeah.

It's not a race.

Especially in the center, we know if you've checked on or not.

There's a little.

So on your data block, there's a little WI FI symbol as well that we click on and off your data block to say you're on frequency, you're not on frequency.

Okay.

And so if you're not there, we know you're not there.

And then we'll reach out to you if we need to talk to you.

But, yeah, it's not a race.

Just dial and then just listen.

Just hang out 5, 10, 15 seconds a minute.

You know, if it's busy, you're asking.

I know, I know, I know.

You're asking a lot.

I know.

Hang out a minute.

You know, there's just waiting.

But they're like, I know I gotta touch it, do it.

But ultimately, we'll reach out to you if we need you any sooner than that.

Is that why.

When they'll come back and be like, hey, you know, 5463 Lima, did you check in?

Is that just because, like, they might not have hit the data block?

Yeah, yeah.

Or.

Or the, the secret.

The secret code word that I'm going to tell everybody now is, hey, 11-5-463 Lima, how's your ride at 34?

Oh, it's.

It's smooth at 34.

Okay, cool.

I'm validating your altitude.

I'm making sure that you're on frequency.

Bloop, poop.

There you go.

And I'm not calling you out because maybe you forgot to check on or whatever.

Or, or you didn't forget to check on.

You're just waiting like, okay, cool.

I'm not.

I'm not trying to be like, hey, are you here?

You know, I don't.

I'm just gonna see if you're here or not.

And if you're not here, I'm calling the previous sector.

I'm like, hey, try this guy again.

Or if they don't have you.

Okay, now I bring Shadow on guard and, and, and going through the NORDO steps and whatnot.

Some people I've flown with, if, like, they, they check on, they'd wait 15 seconds.

Check on again, would you?

Some people ident.

Is that like a no, no?

Is that like, eh, whatever you can.

Like, I mean, I'll get To you when I get to you.

I don't think you're wrong identing.

So on your little.

So your diamond right in your little beacon slash will turn into a hashtag.

No, no, I'm sorry, It's three.

It's three horizontal lines whenever you ident.

So it changes your data block.

So that's what cues us into, hey, you're identing.

And I would say every controller would ask, hey, you're identing.

Are you okay?

Or like, what's, what's going on, blah, blah, blah.

So that kind of draws your eyes to it.

Yeah.

If it's busy and you checked on once, no response, the controller is still talking to other people.

Okay.

Now there's a lull.

You check on again.

Maybe they're doing some coordination in the background that you don't know about.

I don't think it's wrong to ident.

But again, we know if you're on frequency or not.

If we heard you, we'll acknowledge you because we have to, or we should.

It's our job.

But sometimes a check on is low, low duty priority, right?

Yeah.

Especially if you're just straight and level, fat, dumb and happy.

You know this like you're just flying, right.

I have to do other things first before I get back to you.

Although some pilots think that checking on is like, this is the most important thing in the world.

Right.

I think when the, the issue arises is when it happens, when you need something.

So like, all right, hey, I'm asking this person about the weather.

They're like, oh, perfect timing.

You can actually contact this center now because you're in their sector.

Like, all right, well, I got like a couple miles, like I got 20 miles before I need to make a decision.

Like, I don't have time anymore.

So then they're like, all right, bing.

And then whenever that happens, you know, you try to check in.

Oh, multiple people are talking.

I was like, oh, my gosh.

Like, I don't have time to do this.

I just need, I need my deviation.

Yeah.

And I think.

If that if I'm the controller working airplanes around that weather, then I'm going to be preemptive and I'm, I'm taking this hand off.

I know this guy's going to be checking on, and I'm pretty sure he's going to want deviations whenever he checks on.

Right.

So I'm already thinking about that.

Whenever I take this hand off, I'm doing other stuff.

You check on, go back to you.

Okay.

Nobody's really started deviating until, you know, I've got five minutes or whatever, until you actually have to start deviating.

Okay.

If there's higher duty priority stuff, I'm going to do that first and I'm going to come back to you.

Yeah.

Number one, two, three, deviation left.

Of course approved when able.

Procedure X. Bartenberg advice direct.

Blah, blah, blah.

It's controller technique and it's controller experience.

A trainee is not going to have that, that same mentality as opposed to, you know, a 20 year controller veteran.

But ultimately you need what you need to do.

You need to do what you need to do in order to be safe flying the airplane.

Right.

If that is to butt in to say, hey, I'm about to fly into an anvil, I need a deviation.

Okay, here you go.

If you can't get a word in edgewise, this is a big one of the big questions that I get flying in like Jacksonville and Florida and stuff, or from people who fly there.

They're like, there's so many planes talking that I'm about to fly through a thunderstorm.

I cannot do that.

I cannot tell the controller I'm about to deviate.

What should I do?

Well, what I tell them is declare an emergency.

I know, it's a scary thought.

Scary thought.

Number one, two, three, declaring an emergency.

We're deviating.

20 degrees left for the thunderstorm.

God, dude, we have.

You got to do it.

You have to do it.

Yeah.

You're flying the airplane, the controller is safe on the ground.

Right.

You are the one that's about to fly through hail and blah, blah, blah.

Right.

Once you're done doing that, you can cancel the emergency.

It's not, it's not like that's going to follow you all the way to the ground.

Now.

You may get a phone number and they may just be like, hey, what happened?

Oh, well, I was about to fly through a thunderstorm.

Okay.

But it's, it's not punitive.

It's not, it's not meant to be like, oh, we got you.

You know, safety of flight is number one.

Right.

Same thing with controllers.

Safe, orderly and expeditious flow of traffic.

If you need to declare an emergency for safety, do it.

Absolutely.

And I would agree with that.

Yeah.

It's like, you got to do what you got to do.

Then TSP is going to be like, why did you fly through the thunderstorm?

It's like, well, they didn't talk to me.

It's like, you're the pilot, you control the plane.

Like, you should have done that.

Yeah.

Getting off track of that.

This is kind of interesting.

Like I just thought about this right now.

You know, like a pilot, they go to work, they have a job, it goes fly this plane to, from this destination to this destination and then either you're done for the day or you do it again.

But there's always an end, right?

Like your job, you sit down and it's just like there's no, like your start is just like a ton of airplanes.

Like there's no like completion point.

Yeah.

Was that hard for you to like either wind down afterwards, like to not feel like it's like done because the like the job is still there, like someone's still doing it?

Or is it just like as simple as clocking in, clocking out, you're brains off of that?

I don't know if that makes sense.

No, yeah, yeah, for sure.

You know, growing up, doing theater stuff, at the end of the show you get a bow and there's everybody's clapping and like that's the end.

Right.

And then you get to this job and okay, there's airplanes and your job is to keep them safe from one side of the scope to the other.

Now there's more airplanes and you're keeping them safe from one side of the scope to the other.

It never ends.

And so, yeah, there's kind of a, an unsatisfactory ending, I guess, to the job because it never ends.

Now you have like departure banks and arrival banks and those end, but you'll always have airplanes.

And so being able to find satisfaction in the moment of doing the job, I think is important because you're never going to have satisfaction of ending the job because that doesn't exist.

Yeah, I think that's why I like doing Legos so much.

That's kind of my, my wind down thing because it's chaos and then you put it into order and then it's done and then you can just move on to the next thing.

Right.

Same thing with like these, these TikTok videos and these, these Instagram videos.

Like I can make a video, talk about it and then it's done.

And then I get the instant feedback of people commenting or liking or sharing, which then spurs more development of these videos.

And so I really like doing that, I guess to kind of satiate my theatrical brain.

Yeah.

With all of that as well.

But yeah, it's, it's, that's an interesting thing that you bring up because that's, that's something that I've, that I've dealt with and I'm Sure.

A lot of people.

Yeah.

It's just like, you go home and it's like, all right, well, I actually want to know if this plane made it.

Okay.

I'm looking Flight away and be like, all right.

Oh, look, they flew right through the thunderstorm.

So same thing.

Yeah.

So with emergencies, for sure in the center, you know, depressurization, medical emergency, whatever, you hand them off to the tray con.

You never know how it ends, and unless there's a news story about it, you're just.

You just keep going, you know, like, yeah, you can pull up flight away at the end if you want, but I would say 99% of controllers don't.

They're just like, well, I handed them off to the tray con.

That's what I had to do next.

You know, whenever there's another emergency going on, like, whenever I hear it and they get handed off, I'm always like, all right, I'm going to radio 2com2, plugging in that frequency.

Let me listen up what's going on.

As long as I can keep tracking them.

And then it's gone.

I'm just like, okay, good luck, guys.

Good luck.

See ya.

Yeah, it is definitely an interesting mystery point.

I do have kind of, like, one question about phone numbers.

What can you.

Obviously, there's a point in time where phone numbers need to be given out, but is there, like a.

Can you demystify?

Like, is it like, all, like, bad getting a phone number?

Or is there opportunities for just learning, you know, phone numbers necessarily aren't going to be, hey, you know, you're in trouble.

It could be like, hey, we just really would like to know why you did that, or, hey, we just changed this.

It's easier for me to talk to you over the phone than it is for me to tell you to show the frequency.

Yeah.

So I actually just made a video about this.

It's called Brashers.

You know why it's called a Brasher?

So it's named after somebody.

It's called.

It's named after a Captain Jack Brasher, who in the 80s, busted an altitude by like, 3 or 400ft.

Air traffic control didn't tell him about it.

And then, like, four months later, the FAA sent him a letter saying, hey, we're taking certificate action because you busted in altitude.

And so they went to court, they went to trial, and the jury sided with the pilot because they're like, he didn't know that he had busted the altitude.

One, he's flown 5,000 legs since then.

Two, he can't recall anything that's happened during this moment.

So you can't expect him to fix it or to have any knowledge of what's going on anyway.

So the FAA basically said, okay, after that we're going to have a thing called the Brasher warning or the, or the, the pilot possible pilot deviation.

And it's non punitive.

It's non punitive.

It's basically just saying, hey, something happened.

Take note of what was going on in the flight deck and whenever you land, give us a call because we want to talk about it.

Now, there's kind of two variations of pilot deviations.

There's pilot deviations that lead to a loss of separation and there's pilot deviations that do not lead to a loss of separation.

You took a wrong turn, you did something wrong.

Nothing happened.

But the controller just wants to say, hey, what happened here?

How can we fix it?

Was it something that I said?

Was it an instruction that was unclear?

Is there a technical aspect of your FMS that's incorrect that we need to fix?

Trying to stop those Swiss cheese holes from lining up so that we can fix it before it becomes a problem that leads to a loss of separation?

I would say that's 90% of the possible pilot deviation calls.

The other ones obviously lead to some sort of certificate, not certificate action, some sort of loss of separation.

Now air traffic controls hands are tied whenever there's a loss of separation because we get snitched on by our computer system.

Our computer says, hey, there's a loss of separation, sends it to the quality control panel people.

Quality control people then have to review that, that situation.

So again, telling you, hey, what happened in the flight deck?

Was the, was the instruction unclear?

Was something happening that caused this loss of separation besides, you know, maybe a pilot error, Maybe it was controller error.

Right.

They miss a read back.

Did they miss a hear back?

So just kind of being able to write down that stuff so that whenever you do call, if you call now, you don't have to call, but it would be prudent if you did call.

Probably less likely to get in trouble if you call.

Yeah.

Now you're like, all right, jerk.

I have some, some fizzo people who follow my tiktoks.

And it's actually really interesting because, you know, a majority of the, of the things that they deal with are, you know, common errors and they're honest mistakes and they're things that, okay, do we need retraining?

Do we need, do we need to change this scenario?

Do we need to change this how this is read within an fms.

How can we fix this?

So it's not very much on the pilot.

It's on the system.

Because that's a majority of, I think aviation human factors is how can we change the system to make flying safer?

And how can we help pilots make flying safer?

How can we help controllers make flying safer?

So I would say, yeah, the Brasher is not punitive.

But, you know, those things that get sent to quality control also get sent to the fisdo.

The supervisor writes up a little blurb about what happened.

If the pilot calls, that phone call is logged, and it's also sent to the fisdo.

So that would be the time for you to explain what was going on.

Right.

That gives you your side of the story as opposed to just what the controller saw.

So it is beneficial and it's prudent, I would think, to.

To call, so you at least have that ability to say, hey, this is what happened.

And then as a pilot, too, you follow.

If your airline is involved in it, you fall under the ASAP program.

So the prudent thing for you to do is to file an ASAP as soon as you can as well.

And again, that protects you.

And then it also gets reviewed.

Right?

Because like you said, the most important thing is we want to figure out why this happened.

Was it a failure of our system or was someone tired?

Was just some kind of factor that factored in.

You heard the wrong thing, you made a mistake, which, okay, mistakes happen.

We're not perfect.

You're not perfect.

No one's perfect.

Things happen, but you just want to minimize those mistakes.

No, for sure.

And I think that at the heart, that is what the Brasher warning was created.

It's basically a Miranda Rides for pilots, right?

So use that.

Fill out the NASA form, fill out the ATS app.

That's the Air Traffic Controller Safety Action Plan, something or other.

That's kind of like the ASAP report for pilots.

Because self reporting is a lot easier than trying to cover it up.

And it's.

It's a lot better for you in the long run.

For sure.

Agreed.

How many phone numbers are you going out do you, like, keep track of?

All?

Like, 365 and I got 10 piled fun.

You know, I actually have not given out any phone numbers, personally.

Look at you, bro.

I saw you just brush your shoulders.

The tray con called me once, and they're like, hey, we need you to brasher this guy because he busted an altitude on a sid and they were kind of doing some SID reworkings.

So they wanted to call and be like, hey, how could we make this better?

And that was basically what that, what that brasher was.

But if it's a non separation issue, it's really up to the controller's judgment on if they want to brasher the pilot or not.

Can they educate them now?

Do they have time to educate them like hey, this CPDLC clearance said cleared to Sidon via Greene County.

You just turn direct sight in.

You need to look at page two of the document because you have to go to Greene county and then site in.

It's worded weird.

That's a known issue.

So does it really help to pressure somebody or is it more just better to just educate them?

Look at page two, you know.

Yeah, it just depends.

It just depends.

Like I said, air traffic controllers are not the police.

If it leads to a loss of separation, our hands are tied.

But if it doesn't, it's really.

Are you argumentative?

Are you the one Romeo guy at the Vegas class Bravo?

Oh my gosh, that's exactly what I was thinking of.

Or are you.

Yeah.

Or are you apologetic or.

Yeah.

Is it an honest mistake?

Like you're human.

We're human.

People make mistakes and it's not, it's not beneficial to just bash on these people, you know.

Yeah.

Last question.

Because we've been talking for a while, I feel like we could do some recurring episodes here.

You'd be my.

For sure, for sure.

Happy to.

Good stuff going.

But what is something.

There's two part question.

What's your favorite thing that a pilot can do and what's your least favorite thing that pilots do?

Favorite thing that pilots do is wait to check on is.

Stop talking.

Yeah, stop talking.

No, I, I really enjoy a pilot who you can definitely tell is enjoying the job because that, I mean all we do is hear pilots day to day.

And so having somebody really enjoy what they're doing helps me enjoy what I'm doing, I guess.

Does that make sense?

I mean that's the same for me.

I would say the same thing.

Like you can tell when a controller is like in a good mood.

There's nothing worse than you check on the controller's like.

Yeah, yeah.

It goes a long way.

Right?

Yeah.

And especially cause like this is aviation.

Like you're flying an airplane through the air.

Like this is crazy that you're actually doing this.

Right.

Right.

Losing that wonderlust is, is kind of sad.

It's like the loss of innocence, you know, it's like oh my gosh.

Just.

And it Happens to everyone.

At some point, you're all gonna be.

Like, what the heck?

Yeah.

And then I think what pilots do that I don't like.

Yeah, Weather days, ride days, whenever you check on.

Most controllers will tell you about that information when you check on.

But pilots hear their call sign and their ears go off.

And so then they check back two minutes later.

Hey, how are the rides up ahead?

I told you.

I told you when you checked on.

And now I'm wasting time doing this again.

Right?

So they're terrible everywhere.

I always love when they say that.

It's like, I'm not gonna say anything.

Yeah.

Oh, the rides, the rides.

Light, occasional moderate bumps.

29 to 38.

Okay.

How the rides are 35.

Oh, yeah.

But sometimes we are up to.

We like the captain just like, just ask him anyways.

You're like, but they just said the rides are bad.

I know.

Like, well, they don't know.

Three, six, zero might be.

It's like, okay, hi.

Yeah, three, six, zero.

I told you, they suck.

Okay, thank you.

Bye.

So one of the cool things with Datacom or cpdlc full service is we're going to have a thing called Advisories.

And it's basically free text that we can uplink to a point plane whenever you check on or at any point.

And it will, if we keep it up to date, it'll tell you, these are the rides.

These are where it's bad.

This is what people are doing.

This is a blah, blah, blah, blah.

So we don't have to say it over and over and over again.

Because that's the really annoying part because you're saying this will be the first time you've heard it, but I've said it 80,000 times before.

You've gotten to my airspace.

And so, yeah, I think the advisories is going to be.

Is going to be super cool, whatever that.

I would also love to be able to check in with CFLDC.

I think that would save a bunch of like you said like we talked about earlier, like there's so many people that you're busy.

If you could just be like, all right, I see the check in.

I can click this, but I still talk to someone else, you know, so.

That is a functionality as well.

So currently it's only contact.

So I send you a message.

It says, contact Houston center on 124.7.

Okay, cool.

Change a center number.

1, 2, 3, fly level three four, zero.

With full services.

There's going to be a thing called monitor.

And monitor talk is exactly what it sounds like transfer, communication, talk.

Click it.

It says, monitor Houston center on 124.7.

You click OK, you confirm your altitude that's on your panel, and then it populates.

So we talked about that little WI FI symbol.

It ticks on that WI FI symbol automatically when you accept it so that the controller knows that you're on the frequency and it's verified your altitude because you've confirmed your assigned altitude in your fms.

And then you don't have to check on because you're there.

And we know that you're there because the little WI FI symbol.

Now, if we have an altitude in your data block that's different than the one that's in your autopilot, it's a red box, and we have to go to voice and be like, hey, just verify your altitude.

Okay, cool.

But for, you know, the transcons, the jetblues flying from LA to Fort Lauderdale and Americans flying, blah, blah, blah, just monitor, monitor, monitor.

You won't have to check on, which is going to be great.

And it's great for us because that cuts down on the talking, you know, I love cpdlc.

It's, it's so great.

Yeah, we love it too.

We love it too, man.

More CFLDC.

Hit me up, please.

And then there's less clearances that are read on Instagram with cpldc, too, so.

Always works, but that's a different conversation for a different time.

Marcus, thank you so much for coming on.

I appreciate it.

Your stuff's been blowing up on my phone.

I feel like every time I pick it up, it's always you.

And I'm like, hey, how do you pronounce this dude?

Must really like cats.

I added, I added the pronunciation on my Instagram because a lot of profat.

Cat prop.

I was like, prop hat.

Atcat.

I think it's cat.

Okay.

I, I, I don't know where that came from.

I like cats.

Oh, I know where it came from.

So if you have just like two.

More minutes, I'll give you three.

Okay.

NATCA does this thing at Oshkosh every year, Airventure, where they basically have a booth.

And it's kind of what we're doing here, right?

It's pilot outreach.

We do presentations.

And then we're like, hey, if you have any questions for controllers, center tower, tracon, come and ask them.

And I went my first time two years ago, three years ago, and I was like, you know, air traffic controllers have the stigma of being, like, kind of mean, or they're like, Daunting, intimidating.

So how can I make.

How can I make myself less intimidating?

Because I'm a very intimidating person.

I'm sure you're aware.

Very intimidating.

I'm scared.

And so I found this little propeller hat, and I put on a little propeller hat, and then we had these vests.

That's like, ask an atc.

And so that's kind of where the propeller hat is.

Because I was like, I don't want to be intimidating the pilots.

I want them to be able to, like, come up and laugh at me, which is fine, but then actually, like, ask me questions about how can I be a safer pilot or how can I use air traffic more efficiently or things like that.

Yeah, and so that's kind of where the prop hat came from.

And then cats.

I just like cats.

So it just kind of works.

And it just works.

Yeah, it rhymes.

It's easy to remember.

Yeah, easy to.

Easy to.

To think about.

But I'm not gonna lie.

I was expecting a few cats.

I've locked them out of my room.

They don't, like, whenever I'm on the phone or on their very needy cats.

They're Covid cats.

So they've.

They've learned of me just being at home all the time.

So whenever I'm gone, they're very, very sad.

Well, Marcus, I appreciate your time.

Like I said, we'll have to do this again, because I'm sure we could just have a corner where you could help answer questions and demystify some common ATC things that pilots get frustrated with.

Or maybe ATC gets frustrated pilots.

It goes both ways, right?

Yeah, for sure.

But I appreciate your time and thank you so much.

Hey, thank you so much, and congratulations on the magazine.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

That's awesome.

That is wrap on today's episode.

Thank you so much for listening.

We are getting in the groove.

We are knocking episodes out.

I recently just did Ready for Pushback podcast.

Nick came on my podcast a couple weeks ago and he is releasing it early.

Maybe not.

He said five weeks, maybe earlier.

But shout out to Nick.

Great things, Spitfire.

I love the interview prep.

So if that's out, if it isn't out, check it out when it does come out.

But AV Nation, I hope you're having a great day.

Check out the magazine.

It's sick.

I hope you're having a good one.

As always, happy flying.