This is an AI transcription, apologies for any typos.

[00:00:00] Kevin Eustace: I just remember going from zero to a hundred in my head of trying to think of what would be the right answer. It seemed like a life or death situation.

[00:00:13] Alex Melia: Welcome to Stories of Men Beneath the Surface. I'm Alex Melia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Sometimes our bodies act in ways are separate from what we desire to do in our heads. Whether that's skipping the gym class because you sprain an ankle or missing a night out because you've got a stomach bug. It's a frustrating feeling knowing that sometimes we just have no power over what our bodies do, despite our head's best intentions.

Kevin had been in a relationship with his partner for just under a year, and on her birthday. Kevin's future in-laws had booked a trip for the four of them to boat through the beautiful Yorkshire countryside. A sunny day in June. It seemed like it was going to be a picturesque and tranquil afternoon trip.

Until Kevin started feeling strange,

[00:01:11] Kevin Eustace: the barge trip in itself was a surprise for my partner for a birthday from her parents. And they were gonna pull in, they knew the spot that they could pull into where we were gonna have this lunch. So there's four of us on the boat, and it's, as I say, it's a lovely sunny day and they've, Got a radio. You want think it's tuned to radio two.

It's just down in the downstairs. Parts of this barge, you know the birds tweeting away, just the sound of the water lapping against the boat. You've got all the barges passing by and waving, and we're all waving back and everything's like a nice pictures, perfect English, break up on a canal sort of situation.

We were chatting about at the, the buildings we were going past. Turf Stepfather is, he's a ex deputy headmaster, so he's quite knowledgeable and he likes all things architecture wise. So he's a very educated man and he's pointing things out and he's explaining them as we're traveling down and it's all very interesting and kind of trying to feel a bit laid back, getting into the day.

And at one point he turns and he asks me a question. And it was a simple question, something as simple as, do you want a cheese sandwich or do you want a ham sandwich? I just remember going from zero to a hundred in my head of trying to think of what would be the right answer. It seemed like a life or death situation, and as I remember smiling at him, I remember catching me breath.

I remember not being able to think of the correct way of formulating the response and having to sit down, and everyone then was around me going, are you okay? Are you okay? And I couldn't form words, but words were not coming outta my mouth. I felt a tightness in my chest and I wasn't sure what was going on.

And I was funny enough, as you know, most people do in this situation, especially if you're a man, you laugh. So I'm kind of chuckling and shrugging and still not speaking a word, just holding me chest and making faces, and I could feel me face burning up with embarrassment. So as I'm in this kind of state, my father-in-law, Kind of put his hand on my chest to feel me heart, which is obviously racing.

So to him, that backs up the theory that there's something physical going on. I was frozen, I was completely frozen. My brain was in such a state that it, I'd convinced myself internally that whatever I would say would not be the right response over something as trivial as What sandwich would you like to eat?

I've been scared before. I've been terrified before, but I've never been in a situation where I. Unable to talk and I went into complete shutdown.

[00:03:54] Alex Melia: So Kevin, can you tell me what happened next after you got off the boat?

[00:03:57] Kevin Eustace: Yeah, so when we got off the boat, we kind of tailed back away from her parents 'cause they were both still aware. I. That I was, you know, and which also played in doubly into my anxiety at the time, is that I'd now took the shine off her birthday and it was now about my health.

The situation had changed dramatically and her parents were walking ahead to give us a chance to try and Right. Whatever wrong was go clearly going wrong with me. We'd established it wasn't physical, which only left the obvious thing that is something's wrong with this fell's head. Um, so. As we got off the boat, her parents walk ahead to the car, give us a bit of space so that we can start talking amongst ourselves.

And again, it was just really my partner checking that I was okay. I was just kept reiterating that I'm fine. She doesn't have to worry. I'm breathing okay. You know, my heart rate's back down. I can save, I can talk normally. I'm not sure what happened on the boat. I can't explain it. I'd never wanted to experience it again.

And I'll make sure that I see the doctor. And then we drove home. Her parents dropped. Off at our house and they carried onto their house and I very quickly wanted to go to bed that night. I kind of wanted to mentally reset and wake up the next day, uh, which wasn't ideal with it being her birthday. Felt like a rather selfish move, but at the same time, there was only one way that I could reset myself, and that was by going to

[00:05:21] Alex Melia: sleep.

Were you were able to let go of the fact that it was her birthday and you had this. This difficult situation happened. 'cause I can imagine you might have this kind of tussle in your, in your mind where perhaps there was feelings of guilt, it sounds like, on your, on your side for the fact it was a beautiful day, this bad trip was organized.

Uh, your partner loves bolts, but you've had this, this scenario happened to you that you never really experienced before. And perhaps it might have overshadowed her birthday, but.

[00:05:48] Kevin Eustace: I still carry the guilt of, of ruining that day for her. Uh, and try my best to give other days, when I say give other days, you know, take her out for meals on days, which weren't a birthday to try and make it up for the fact that I.

I had turned a day that was all about her suddenly all about me for a very negative reason, was all that kept replaying in, in my mind over and over again. And it was only after the, the diagnosis, if you will, by the Doctor of Social Anxiety Disorder, that it starts that it was, it was good that I kind of had a diagnosis.

Um, But it was also my first journey into the, the whole landscape of of, of looking after yourself mentally

[00:06:28] Alex Melia: as well. How did you feel when you got that news? From the, from the doctor? Because I've actually experienced social anxiety myself in the past, and I. It's not, not a pleasant feeling and it's not something that can be procured straight away.

And you know, I think we talked before about you, you have counsel and, and so do I. And it's kind of a, it's a daily, it's a daily, I say, I don't wanna say struggle, but it's a, it's a daily challenge of putting yourself in situations perhaps, that are outside of your comfort zone and. Because I'm trying to, I'm trying to overcome this myself, and we've done the, we've done something, both of us who've got social anxiety, we we're both doing things that perhaps people might not expect us to do, which is speaking a lot in podcasting.

And, uh, talking to

[00:07:14] Kevin Eustace: people, I. It's a, it's a great point. Yeah. It's, um, getting the diagnosis was, was a strange thing because I'll be honest, I was brought up, um, with the old fashioned toxic mentality of you just get on with it. Literally, that's like my dad's saying, um, is you just gotta get on with it. That that's, you know, you live your life by that, so you don't have time for things like, Social anxiety disorder, you know, if you're told that you've got that by a doctor, it's kind of, it's, well, it's not seen as almost witchcraft if you like.

It's seen as, it's not a real illness. It's, um, and interestingly, it's still, I. I, I'm aware of it now. Uh, it's something I think that I, I, I think once you've been diagnosed with it, you can, you can heal this, the wound, you can, you know, the, the wound can scab over with social anxiety disorder, but it can also open up very quickly again, and there's wor signs where that wound starts to open, and I've noticed them within myself over the years since, um, 2005.

So it's things such as I notice if it starts to happen again. I'll start stuttering over a period of days and I'll notice it, or my partner will pick up and say, do you know you've been stuttering quite a lot the last few days? And then I'll, I'll have to try and look at internally at myself and see what's going on, uh, which is something I'd never do before.

I. But you're right, in terms of the podcast, and I was at, see, I was always a socially active person, literally, um, within a room without sounding like a big head. You know, I, I would be the, not the life and soul of a party, but I'd make sure that everyone was laughing. Um, largely self-deprecation. But you know, that's kind of key to my humor.

But, um, so that was when it was around 20 or 25 there thereabouts, and then it kind of went downhill and hit this slump and then hit this full stop and getting back up from that to the point I. Of being able to more or less be who you were, that podcasting helped. You know, that was one of the things, it was like being podcasting now for about seven years, and it was because I thought I need to be able to just speak.

I need to be able to talk and I need to be able to, more importantly, I need to be able to talk without thinking about what I'm about to say. I know that sounds stupid in a way, but you know, I need to be able to say a sentence such as now, like the last two minutes of what I've just been talking about.

I'm not pre-thinking each and everywhere before it leaves me mouth and I needed to get back to that state and podcast and help that, uh, in a massive way. Really. It's kinda like a self therapy. It's just like

[00:10:01] Alex Melia: a, it's like a, a freestyle thing and, and it feels, it feels great to be able to just. Speaking that sort of fashion, uh, with not really constantly thinking about the next word, the next sentence you're going to say.

And obviously if you've been doing podcasting for seven years, you know that that sort of thing comes naturally to now to, you know, what was, what was interesting you, you said before, which made me wanted to come back to it, is, What your father was saying to you about get on with it. It made me think of other phrases that our parents and grandparents and the older generation, I, I say the older generation actually, people still say it now, get on with it.

Pull your socks up, what you're doing, faffing around, get up, get out. Those kinds of phrases are actually really detrimental to, uh, mental health and actually would become a lot worse by just ignoring it. There's

[00:10:54] Kevin Eustace: a lot of harmful phrases which are used in, um, they're intended to be used in a positive way, but they're more detrimental than they are help.

But I think, like I was saying earlier, I do think that there's an in, we live in a, we live in a very interesting age at the moment. I think now I'm 44 now when, um, when I was 16, my mother died. Like I said earlier, I went through a little, what I now recognize as depression and wouldn't get outta bed. I mean, dad did come in and say, get your lazy ass up, get out, get a job.

'cause I'd quit me a levels at this point. It was around the same time. It, it was like if you, if you knew not just sitting here doing nothing, go and get a job now. There's no internet, there's no nothing like that. You know, mobile phone to think had just arrived on the scene and that's if you were rich enough to own one.

Um, and, uh, so, so I did. I got outta bed, I went down the job center and I got myself the job, although I do completely agree. That the idea of pull socks up, you know, be a man that's, that's all nonsense and harmful and does a lot more damage than good. But I will also say to the counter, just to play devil's advocate, if we had the internet in 1995, um, and there was all these online forums, there's a chance that I would've logged onto a forum and found a helpful group.

And I don't mean that in a positive way, a group who would reinforce my negative opinions about. Who I was and about my feelings and validating my negative thoughts when in reality, genuinely, I still believe what I did need at that age was someone to say that

[00:12:32] Alex Melia: you need to kick up the ass. Yeah. But it's, it's definitely, it's an accountability thing as well.

You're held accountable by, uh, a group of people that you respect, for example, but then say, when you start to feel better, why don't you set yourself a little challenge to. Get out the house, go to the edge of the street and just keep building it. Go to the field and then you can start building up from there.

But otherwise, if you don't have that, then you can just stay inside all day. And one day becomes one week. One week becomes one month. One month becomes a year, and then you're not able to get out the house and face people. And I think that's

[00:13:04] Kevin Eustace: very, It definitely is. And there's, there's also, you know, and I've seen it in people, sadly, um, I've seen it in people where they stay in that situation so long that it starts to define them.

And, and I, I won't mention any individual names obviously. Um, but one particular person that I did know, When I say did in the past tense, sadly they, for a good few number of years, they, their mental health defined them and it, if you were introduce them at a party, the first things outta their mouth would be to say that they have this mental disorder.

You know, and it was kind of a badge of honor is what it seemed like, how it was presented and. We would have to, you'd sit down with a person and be like, have you tried this? Have you tried this? Have you tried the other? Can we recommend this? Can we re recommend that? Um, and they said, done it all, done it all.

Don't, you know, don't wanna do it. Don't wanna do it. Don't wanna do it. And it was a very strange thing. They're no longer with us. They took their own life, sadly. Um, but it's, it always, it sticks with me. I'm, you know, I'm obviously no expert in mental health, obviously, but it sticks with me in, in the way that.

I do, I do recall that it was a, I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a, a, a, a piece of pride with the person by any stretch, but there was definitely something that they clung onto that it was a trait that they felt was theirs, which is sad in itself, you know, that it is. The one thing that they felt they truly owned was the

[00:14:42] Alex Melia: depression.

And it's so sad that that person ended up taking their life. It seemed like they weren't open to the opinions of others. They just built up this persona so much that they couldn't imagine their life without the mental illness.

[00:14:57] Kevin Eustace: And you, I feel like walking on eggshells, even discussing it, but it's, it's, it's, that's what I, I, I observed taking place.

And there may be people who obviously say, well, that's because of X and that's because of y and that, and that all may be completely right. But from, from what I observed, that was the way it happened. You know, the person sadly held onto like, like a, ironically, like a, a life raft sort of thing. They, they held onto, it was the one thing that they'd built themselves as weird as that sound, that it was one thing that they could point at and say, that's mine.

And it was a depressive,

[00:15:34] Alex Melia: it just seems strange from the outside. But I couldn't understand why people do it, why you would define yourself in that way. You know, you might say, hi, my name's Alex, and I have, I'm, I'm a depressed person. Or I'm, I'm an anxious person, or, I've got this particular, I've got O C D or whatever.

It does seem strange that people do that, but at least in their mind, they can be defined by something, even if it's a negative thing.

[00:16:03] Kevin Eustace: You know, I mean, like we've talked about earlier, I'm, I'm currently in therapy because I have open down days. My partner pointed out my down days were becoming more frequent. Um, I've started doing therapy and getting to the root of some of the underlying reasons of why those down days were becoming more frequent and it's unveiling quite a lot.

You know, it's, so, it's we all, the thing is, The, the interesting thing I found from starting therapy was the attitude of, which is what I first went into therapy with is, but everybody feels like this, and so why am I any different? Why should I be the one talking to this person? I'm, I'm all right, I'm fine.

Why am I talking to this person? And the therapist asked me a few very simple questions, like along the lines of, okay, well within the last month, have you. Thought even once about taking your own life. I was like, yeah. And she was like, right, I haven't. I was like, okay. And then there was like another question I expected.

Yeah, and then there was a few where it was just like, she was like, yeah, this, this is it. You know, there's a reason why you're here. Everyone may think like this, but if that's the case, everyone should be doing something like this. It was a strange sort of realization, which I'm still trying to come to grips with.

[00:17:23] Alex Melia: So it came to intuitive that your counselor. Would say that to you, but I, I understand the, the logic behind it.

[00:17:30] Kevin Eustace: And I remember actually thinking in therapy, this is the interesting thing about anybody who's thinking about therapy is session one I left thinking that was a load of nonsense. Session two, she had me in tears and I left thinking two was a wizard session three.

I thought that was a load of nonsense session four, I mean two years again. So it's um, it's like emotion.

[00:17:53] Alex Melia: Why do you think that you have those sort of, at one point you think she's talking nonsense and the next you're crying and then nonsense, crying, nonsense, crying. I, I,

[00:18:03] Kevin Eustace: I think with the nonsense part of it, it's because I will always have this mentality of, and I've had it ever since a child.

It's inherent in me that I'm, I'm being had off, right? That someone's trying to take the mick outta me or someone's trying to manipulate me. I would always have that inherently in me. And there's times I'll approach a therapy session with that mentality. And they're the days that I leave thinking this is a, this is a con.

But then we had one session, we went in. Interestingly, I'm quite, uh, self-deprecating to myself either like in mirrors and things, you know, like if a person drops a cup, you know, they might say, oh shit, I dropped a cup. If I drop a cup. The things that I'd say about myself, Aren't worth airing sort of thing.

Um, and she was like, so who is this person? Who is this person that is saying these things? Anyway, long story short, she established that I, in early teen years, created this person as a protector or this persona as a protector due to losing appearance. And this person would look out for me. And as a grown man, it stayed around.

But because for whatever reason it doesn't think this is, gets really weird now says, because as a grown adult it, this persona doesn't think I'm where I should be. I. It's turned on me, right? And so therefore, any mistake, it's still treat me as,

[00:19:31] Alex Melia: it's powerful, isn't it? To start thinking about the five year old Kevin, the 15 year old Kevin, and so on, thinking about those inner a inner children within us, and my counselor has done similar scenarios and I also get, it's a trigger for me in terms of.

Crying and, and feeling, I feel feeling very much, feeling very protective of the younger versions of myself. And, uh, we do have that. I, I feel like those people, those boys are still within me and I just want to hug them. I want to look after them and want to protect them from things that I know that they're going to experience in future.

And it's interesting that, that, that's a trigger for you.

[00:20:15] Kevin Eustace: And I think this is where it get, it gets to a, a bit, to a, a boiling point, really. This is why I started the therapy, is that my partner overheard me looking in the mirror and, and talk, not talking to myself as in like, you know, whatever the perceived connotations of that is.

But as in like looking in the mirror and saying, you look fucking awful today. You look like a piece of shit. You know? Do you know, like, as in outwardly saying, I mean, who's gonna have a good day? Even if it's based, I found

[00:20:46] Alex Melia: it intriguing as to why you said it out. You said it out loud when you, when you in front of the mirror, not, you didn't say it to yourself.

I'm just curious. Why did you say it out?

[00:20:57] Kevin Eustace: See that, I think this is one thing that I'm we'll come into the crux with in terms of the therapy sessions, is that if I have frustrations with anything, I'll take it out on me. Do you know what I mean? So if, let's say, I dunno, somebody puts, accidentally kicks a ball through the window, um, and I've got a sort out getting it fixed and all that carry on.

Then the day after, I'll look in the mirror after having a shower. And call myself Fitter Burn. There's a pent up frustration that needs to come out and am aiming it at myself.

[00:21:26] Alex Melia: We are our own biggest bullies and the things that we say to ourselves, we would never say to anyone else. And I'm sure a lot of people listening have heard that before, but it's absolutely true.

I mean, do you think about me saying to myself, you stupid fucking idiot. I would never say

[00:21:43] Kevin Eustace: that to anyone else. Therapist. I said, would you, would you say this to your partner if they dropped a cup or, you know, and I said, God, no, no, no. Only a horrible person to say that. And she said, well, why are you saying it to yourself?

Why? You know why they, the first words you hear every morning is something negative about yourself. From yourself. She went, how do you think that's gonna start your day? I'm like, yeah. It's a, it's a fair shout to be honest.

[00:22:07] Alex Melia: You're not gonna be feeling great, are you? We've mentioned a few times about self-deprecating humor, and I think it's something that British males are famous for, which you know that most, most guys that you meet do have that about them.

Why? Why do you have that? It is such a big part of your personality, and why do you think it's kind of part of the culture? I mean, we've both grown up in the northwest. I, I mean, I've met a lot of people from other parts of the UK who have that, but it seems to be particularly strong in the northwest. I don't know why that is.

What do you think?

[00:22:39] Kevin Eustace: To be honest, I think there's a tipping point with, I think it's a really useful mechanism in social situations, um, as a disarming tactic. I think, and I've thought about this in like kind of in depth, I think I kind of perfected it. Between the ages of like 25 and the like, I got it affected it.

I literally like, you know, it was like it was at the right level. For example, what I mean by that is I could walk into a pulp, for example, um, with one person meeting, one person that I knew who was with a people that I didn't, and self-deprecate to a perfect point where I've disarmed all them. From saying anything negative about me, 'cause I've already said it about myself, and they also think he's all right.

He can take the piss out of himself and then we'd crack on. And within 10 minutes, you know, you and everyone's mate,

[00:23:27] Alex Melia: because it's like a, it's like a defense mechanism. Why do we think, oh, I'm the new guy. I'm, they're gonna take the piss outta me. And then how does that make me feel afterwards? Uh, for example, my name.

Sounds quite posh. Even though I grew up on a counselor, Alexander Claude Melia. I was so insecure about it. When there was a substitute teacher, I would run in and say, by the way, it says on the register it is Alexander, but can you just call me Alex? And then if it was an older teacher, and they might forget, and they say, Alexander and all the kids start smirking.

It's like you want to be in control. You want to be in the power position to control the narrative. And it is like, I don't want to feel like I'm the butt of all the jokes, so. Like you do when you go into the pub. You say that straight away, but why do we feel like we have to take the piss out of each

[00:24:12] Kevin Eustace: other?

The positives are self-deprecation. I think. Uh uh it shows a vulnerability. It shows that you are. You, you know, to this stranger, it shows I'm aware of my own faults. I'm aware of what you see. I'm open and vulnerable, and, but at the same time, confident enough to tell you what those are outright, let's crack on.

And that person then will ultimately feel calm and you are actually in, in the power position. Then I think within that dynamic, because you've, you have disarm them, you know, you've, You that you've come in as a new person. They, they're like, who is he? Does he think he's odd? Does he think he's tough? What does he think of himself?

And you've come in as I am no threat. And they've instantly relaxed.

[00:24:53] Alex Melia: Yeah. It, it's, it's interesting the societal pressures that are put on us at certain, certain stages of our life, and, and I totally agree with you. There's no badge of honor. In my mind as an adult anyway, from feeling like I'm the hardest man of the group or as we used to say at school.

Who's the cock of the year? Who's the cock of this? Yeah. Yeah. Who's the cock of the, he's the Cockrell of the year. Uh, yeah. Who's the hardest Ladd? And there was this sort of this, this sort of gravitas or this, this, this sort of, uh, social credit that you would have for, for being the hardest or better not get on the wrong side of, of him.

Lastly, I wanna say, uh, Kevin, it's been great to have you on the podcast and. What an inspiration it is for, for people who listen to your, your, your podcast and you know, to hear about where you've come from, uh, to where you are now, because this is probably the last thing that people would expect to have.

You know, two podcasts, millions of downloads. You're on Amazon, you're doing all of these, all of these things. But people would think. Having a podcast where you speak a lot would be the last thing that you would do where your, your, um, your father-in-law is asking you a simple question like, would you like a cheese sandwich?

And you're able to to respond. So it shows, you know, if you have that, uh, get outta bed scenario, go um, uh, pull socks or whatever, go and get a job, it could actually lead to something.

[00:26:21] Kevin Eustace: It's, it's an interesting thing. I don't, you know, I don't think there's, there are clearly wrong answers, but I'm not too sure.

I'm not too sure the balance of, of right and wrong.

[00:26:35] Alex Melia: Something I thought that was really revealing about this conversation with Kevin was this idea of self-deprecation being a form of protection. We've talked about it a few times on the podcast before and it keeps coming back up. It made me reflect on this because after meeting so many different nationalities from around the world, it seems to be that self-deprecation as a form of defense or as a form of protection is something that's almost sin.

Anonymous with British men, it's almost like you're preempting that people are gonna want to take the piss out of you, or they're about to do that, and you're disarming them before they've even got a chance to speak. And it's funny because they might not have even wanted to take the piss out of you.

I've also found that sometimes men show signs that they're about to do that as well. Sometimes I found it's this look. They give you, and I think I've done that to other people as well, where the look is that they're almost concocting some sort of witty remark to put you away. And then as you see that, it's almost like you're scrambling to think of some sort of thing to say back to them or something to say before they even say it.

Now this all seems sort of childish and I think it originates back to, to secondary school where everyone's taking the piss out of each other and you are, you are almost on this. Defensive the whole time. It's even goes back to really childish sort of remarks and I think sometimes we do that as adults and I've noticed myself as well, you know, the 15 year old Alex is is coming out with some response and I'm thinking as a 36 year old, Alex, why did you say that?

That was quite a childish thing to say. The beauty nowadays is I can actually recognize when I'm doing that and reflect upon it and think about how I don't do that in future. Sometimes I've noticed these remarks can come off as passive aggressive. What are the impacts of this social crutch on our mental health for the people who say these things and the people who receive them, because it can almost be this endless sort of back and forth, back and forth, and is it good for the other person?

Is it good for you? Are you pretending that it's not affecting you when it actually is? Does it affect our self-esteem and our self-image in the long run, when Kevin had his anxiety attack, It was like his mind and his body was saying to him, something is not right. We need to address this. It makes me think, it's like when we get a headache, you know, immediately we want to look for the headache tablet, but actually what is this actually saying to us?

There could be some other issue in our body and I remember recently I was feeling I had this tension headache and I could, I could press my eyelid and I could feel this headache. But it wasn't actually in that area. The pain hadn't originated in that area. When I actually pressed my hands on other parts of my body, I realized it was in my scapula.

I could feel it as I was putting my hand on my back, pressing my fingers into the pain, and I could feel it, and how it had traveled all the way from my back up to my eyelid. I'm so glad for Kevin that he was able to address his issue because otherwise it would've just happened again and again and again, and the problem would've got even worse.

When I've had anxiety attacks in the past, I. It's almost like it's an alarm bell going off, and it's your opportunity to decide, am I going to address this, or I'm just going to ignore it. It's like an excuse we say to others and to ourselves. I'm fine as Kevin did, but actually you're not fine and it's something that you need to address.

Another thing I've noticed in my counseling is this need to protect the inner child within me and working at how that process actually helps me or hinders me in my daily life. So what's the solution to all this? Why do so many men experience social anxiety? How can we better speak to ourselves to improve the situation, not only for ourselves, but also for other men in general?