Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast.
I'm DJ Sir Daniel,
Jay Ray: and my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III.
And Sir Daniel.
Sir Daniel: Yo,
I've been itching to
have this conversation.
We've been itching to have this conversation for many.
Jay Ray: Yes.
Yes.
And it is time that we dive into a unique.
Part of black music culture.
Sir Daniel: very unique, very.
niche.
Yes.
Very, yeah, very niche.
Because these are very niche songs.
Yes.
And when you hear them,
you almost forget about them.
But then when you hear them, they have such a, Um, they have such a nice groove that you're like, oh yeah, this is, I remember this jam.
And you just start bopping along to it.
Jay Ray: But we need to talk about these, these, songs because once again, they are unique and interesting stories and it's, it's just, and they.
Have taken black culture by storm.
Yes.
In their day.
And so we're gonna talk about "Another Man" by Barbara Mason.
And we have a guest that we have been wanting to appear on Queue Points for a long time to just rap with us from a black woman's perspective exactly about.
These songs.
So we gonna bring our guest in.
But before we do that, we gotta run down the bio.
Uh, Starr Rocque is with us.
Starr is a journalist and author.
Her work has been featured by Fast Company, vibe Magazine, people Magazine, VH one, essence Magazine, American Urban Radio Networks, A URN and more.
Her debut novel bloggers can't be trusted.
Is available on Amazon Queue Points family.
Without further ado, Starr Rocque is in the building.
What's up, Starr?
Look, I.
Was, I was for the longest.
What's up?
Sir Daniel: Yes.
Love to get, know how you're who
Jay Ray: you are.
Sir Daniel: It is been a minute since we saw you, our IRL, because we all got together.
We got got to see each other in person at the Boombox boombox event this past, well, August.
Mm-hmm.
Well, August of 20, 24.
And
Mm-hmm.
And
so we got to hang out, we got to chill and um, and chop it up a little bit.
And when we were just, we were trying to figure out, hmm, we need a black woman.
Mm-hmm.
We need a black woman who is versed in music Yes.
who can speak to this.
Mm-hmm.
Cultural, these cultural phenomenons, because while they are, they are niche songs, they truly hit a nerve.
They struck a nerve in the community, specifically the black community.
So first and foremost, before we go any further, we want to check in with you.
How you feeling, how you doing?
Starr Rocque: I am doing all right.
Given, given the circumstances, you know, there's only so much you control in your, in your personal life, but you still gotta live in this world, right?
This group project.
Um, so I'm, I'm okay.
Sir Daniel: I totally get it.
I love that you call life a group project Yes.
Because there's always somebody that's doing the most and there's always somebody that's kind of slacking.
I love that.
I'm gonna have to use that.
So, we are talking about today, Starr as you heard in the intro, we're talking about "Another Man" by Barbara Mason.
Starr Rocque: And Sir Daniel, it's so funny 'cause you said in the beginning, sometimes you'll hear a song and it's just a bop and you don't really think about the lyrics.
Now let me say, I'm an eighties baby, born in the early eighties.
So you know, the song came out like, I think like 84.
Mm-hmm.
So I was, I was a little kid.
Mm-hmm.
At the family barbecue.
Like this was a song that was in rotation.
'cause it was a bop.
Jay Ray: Yeah.
Starr Rocque: And I can't recall anyone ever like.
Not, I can't recall anyone around me making a big deal about it.
People were just going along singing the lyrics.
As a kid, my interpretation of the song was that she meant that if your man cheated on you, then you cheat back.
The, the whole, the bi, the bisexuality of it just went right over my head.
And then when you guys reached out about this, I was like, wait a minute.
"Another Man",
this song Mm-hmm.
Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm.
Starr Rocque: to it like, oh, the whole time.
Yes, Yes,
Sir Daniel: So
I gotta be,
least
Starr Rocque: from beginning to end.
Sir Daniel: so, I gotta be transparent.
Like I remember being, I, I, remember hearing "Another Man".
In passing.
But
no, it didn't really stick, but I became re familiar with it when, um, when Notorious BIG sampled it on his, own.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
on the, was not life after, was it Life after death?
It was life after.
It was the life after after death.
Life
Starr Rocque: after.
It was life after death.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Sir Daniel: And it
was a duet with him and Lil Kim call another.
Yep.
And mm-hmm.
you know, and of course the groove is just so funky.
And then when you go back and you listen, it was like, oh, oh.
She said she, he did what?
I hope he wasn't aware of my, what?
I caught him.
I caught them holding hands.
And so this whole subject matter starts to unfurl when you listen to the original song.
"Another Man" about her.
Um, describing this man that she was once in love with Mm-hmm.
and then picking up on quote unquote feminine mannerisms
Jay Ray: right?
Mm-hmm.
Sir Daniel: and then catching him on Market Street, which I guess the implication is because she's from Philly
Jay Ray: Market Well, I mean Market Street.
She's so, uh, uh, Barbara Mason is from Philly, so of course this song, uh, was written by Butch Ingram and I think, but is from like Jersey.
That's a fun fact about both of these songs.
Both of these songs were written by men.
Ah.
we put
that to the side.
That was my fun fact.
So let's, let's keep that in there when we think, when we talk about these songs, but I didn't think about that.
Market Street is just like a main thoroughfare in Philadelphia, so No, it's literally like Broad Street, market Street are like the two streets downtown now said in.
84 when this song came out.
I don't know what Market Street was given like, so, you know, cities evolve.
Sir Daniel: Right?
Jay Ray: But to that point, both of your points, like I remembered.
"Another Man" as just like a eighties bop,
right?
Yes.
Because the beat was so ubiquitous with the era and also the baseline, the, the synth baseline
in a,
in "Another Man".
Mm-hmm.
It's just kind of one of those base lines that you hear like remnants of like over time, before and after this song.
Um.
So I didn't really realize the subject matter until the nineties, you know what I mean?
Is when I first was like, oh, that's what "Another Man" is about.
And yes, later on I picked up, after I got my political hat on and I started doing my own thing.
I'm like, and then I picked up on like the language that was being used, and I'm like, oh my goodness, I didn't know.
That's what, and so I didn't know how to take it then because with this new lens that I was looking through, I was like, oh, is this song like harmful?
But then I'm like, it's storytelling.
So I'm curious like y'all, thoughts on Man as like a song, like, you know, however you want to take that.
What are your thoughts?
Starr Rocque: It's a good song.
Yeah.
Like it's drama, you know, black people love a good drama.
It's kind of like the musical version of like some kind of, I don't know, like a, a Tyler Perry movie, for lack of a better way to phrase it.
And I know we could go into how Tyler Perry uses Yes.
Bisexuality and homosexuality in ways that are actually very stereotypical and harmful.
Yes.
But I digress with that for song purposes.
It's a good song, like it's a good dramatic song and.
It's, it's funny because she stole the man from somebody else, right?
So, right.
That it's a drama full event.
And I think that's part of why some of the things, some of the nuances of, of this, of whoever this, this other man is kind of, might go over people's heads.
It's definitely one of those, like, you gotta listen to it again and again.
And like for real, because like I said, I grew up hearing it.
At parties and barbecues and thought nothing of it.
So that's also a marker of a good song, right?
Like you almost get so lost in the rhythm.
You're not even really listening to the lyrics.
But then when you listen to the lyrics, you get what we're doing today, right?
You have conversations like this today.
But yeah, it's kind of like a precursor to like, um, I hate bringing up this man's name, but like a trapped in the closet, right?
Yes.
Like that
whole
like Mm-hmm.
Dramatic series of events.
Like we love a good dramatic song and if it's a bop, that's even better.
Sir Daniel: Yes.
To
true.
Um, I was, I was thinking about Robert also in that, that whole dramatic theme of, um, the telling a story and a lot of our greatest, um.
Our greatest songs in the Black American Songbook our stories.
They have a narrative and there's a, there's a, a beginning, a middle, and an end, and you know, or it goes onto a part two.
So yes, it's like, okay, we, so we just included that.
It's funky, which makes it even harder to put down.
I just, to your, to your point, Starr, it made me think about how.
um,
A lot of other artists use the theme of cheating mm-hmm.
and bisexuality.
Uh, specifically bisexuality became like a marketing ploy.
I don't know if you remember in the mid two thousands, there was an author by the name of J King who rose the prominence when, um, he dropped his book.
called on the dl Yes.
and he, was on Yes.
Remember, was an Oprah Winfrey show Mm-hmm.
and it was like a two part series and it was so dramatic in the, you know, um, and, uh, right after that, Terry McMillan famous author.
mm-hmm.
Um, had, um, that's right.
come to the forefront because her, her then husband, um, came out mm-hmm.
to her and then they appeared on Oprah.
And then there was this conversation about b about black men, specifically black men, Mm-hmm.
um, Um, living these double lives and how harmful they are to black women.
So it's like, the reason why we wanted to discuss this, to discuss these songs is that the, the songs are, have a, have a, a Alter effect, another effect that we don't talk about and it's the alarming of, of black women consumers.
And then the effect afterwards of this heightened awareness, this heightened, um.
Yeah, the super heightened awareness of the men that are in their lives, and then the almo, and then the harmful behaviors that come after it.
Where we see nowadays, where we have these moments online where we, we have women calling other men, sassy Yeah.
and sassy.
Jay Ray: Used.
to use mm-hmm.
Sir Daniel: uh, Zest.
It's weaponized, Mm-hmm.
sassy, and zesty are weaponized for men who don't necessarily do things traditionally or who are.
right.
In touch with, with quote unquote feminine ways Mm-hmm.
or, or feelings.
And so when you think about it Starr and you think about how.
The topic and these songs, and these movies and these books are kind of directed at you as a black woman.
Yeah.
Do Do you think they are?
Do you think it's harmful, do you think?
Um, especially when it comes to the relationship between black women and black men, um, in general.
Starr Rocque: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
It can be harmful 'cause it's presented in an other kind of way.
It's presented in a way that, um, men should be ashamed for certain feelings or for like, not conforming to what's seen as machismo.
And even for me, like I'm someone who, I feel like I grew up pretty progressive.
I mean, I, I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood.
It was the hood.
I've been a theater kid, theater high school, and so I was around a lot of queerness and queer people.
Mm-hmm.
So for me it wasn't necessarily such a shock, but now that I'm older and I'm having more conversation, I'm realizing there's still stuff I need to unlearn and that I'm working on unlearning.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, stereotypically it's like queerness wasn't necessarily.
The spectrum that it is today.
Mm-hmm.
Back then it was like you were either gay or straight.
Yep.
But now it's, you know, now we're understanding Yeah.
What the different terms are and so, but I, I think I'm a unique black woman in that sense that I was exposed to
people and seeing their humanity and understanding their humanity.
Now I can say, um, and I grew up in New York on top of that.
there's a lot of stuff that we were, that we're taught about queerness that's rooted in religion, that's rooted in white supremacist conditioning that needs to be unlearned and we need to talk about these things.
Jay Ray: Yes.
Starr Rocque: So.
I, I hope, I don't know if I answered the question.
Um,
Jay Ray: you did, but
Starr Rocque: yeah,
Jay Ray: you did.
And, and added, um, I think a layer of nuance that I think is important to consider.
So I think what's, what's interesting about "Another Man", Stories that are rooted in a time and place.
And I think today we get to have more nuanced conversations, both in formats like this on podcasts, but also in songs like what Sir Daniel talked about earlier with like artists like Doci and being able to kind of like, uh, unlearn some of those things by continuing to have these conversations, acknowledging the fact that "Another Man" is still a bop.
And also being able to be like, okay, but I can also view "Another Man" from the prism in which it was created, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I think that's one of the things that, um, this kind of, this space gives us an opportunity to do, I think this new space.
But no, you definitely answered the question.
I know that going into this, one of the interesting things that I, I definitely wanted to highlight, um.
Is that both of these songs were written by men, sir. And Sir Daniel, I wanna direct this question to you because what this made me think of is the fact that we saw this in hip hop too, where these vicious disses that women was spit would be written by these dudes, right?
So we got these two songs about bisexual men cheat.
You know, these, these women with these, these men who are cheating on them with other men written by men.
Reflect.
I, I don't, I don't know.
What are your, what are your thoughts
Sir Daniel: on this?
I, I don't know.
I guess it, is like, are you, are they living, are they trying to live out their truths vicariously through the, their muses?
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's something to consider and, you know, it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that a songwriter, a specifically a male songwriter would.
Act out or would flesh out, um, themes or stories or experiences that they've had through their music.
So it's not that far of, a far from, of a stretch of an imagination, but I just know.
But like you said, thinking back into the time, the context of time, like it.
it,
It makes sense because you couldn't, you don't, they didn't have much outlets.
There weren't too many people outside of maybe a Sylvester Mm-hmm.
or, I think, and actually think it stopped right there.
Yeah.
And who,
who,
actually, j Jermaine.
Stewart
Jay Ray: and,
yeah.
Sir Daniel: But even Jermaine Stewart, you know, his biggest, his biggest hit, he's referring to, you know, female pronouns.
And it's like, Jermaine, okay.
You know, but it, and so yeah, like, so it doesn't.
Surprise me That these, um, male songwriters would do this.
Um, now speaking of hip hop and like you mentioned, the, um, the rappers, um, and the disses that were written by men.
It, I have to throw in here.
Um, I, there's another song by the, um, by the rapper, by the name of Nikki d who was, if you remember, Nikki d was the first female mc signed to the Def Jam label Mm-hmm.
back in like 88, 89, and when her debut album finally dropped, daddy's Little Girl, she also has a song on her album called "Another Man".
Mm-hmm.
And it samples the Barbara Mason, "Another Man", and there's no, there's no, um, coins around these lyrics.
She is literally saying, I used, she was reminiscing about a man that she used to date, and this one was even more graphic talking about how, how she would find his underwear and his underwear would have, you know, various.
no, si.
Yeah, the underwear has signs of distress.
I'll put it like that.
And how she, um, and, and funny, fun fact, lady of Rage is on this song, it's Really Quick.
Lady of Rage Oh, okay.
I got her part on the song and it's really quick.
It's like she's just talking to her.
She's like.
He was ripping it at Yes.
And she calls him and she calls her out by race.
But anyway, so the song that was very, uh, when did that come out?
91. So 91.
listening to that song, I was really taken aback.
I was like, oh, whoa.
Like, wow, this is something that is really being discussed.
And I think it was the, the language.
The, the tone of it had a tone of disgust to
Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
and so,
Sir Daniel: but I'm wondering if the disgust was because of the deception.
And there's always, and these always, the songs are always written about the deception.
But I think the greater conversation to have then.
is,
and why aren't we having this greater conversation about why do people feel the need to deceive and to hide?
Jay Ray: Right?
Sir Daniel: And so that's,
Jay Ray: Right.
Sir Daniel: And so that, And so I think these songs could actually create conversations like we're having now about mm-hmm.
why people feel the need to hide.
Why do people feel the need to, to deceive and to hide in relationships that didn't, they didn't necessarily.
Want to be in, or they really could want, you know, there's, there's, um, spectrums to sexuality There's role that Yes.
and so there are people who are legit bisexual, Mm-hmm.
and.
What in, in the moment are having, are in a relationship with the person of the opposite gender.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, that's how, that's what came to my mind when I heard these songs and, you know, Starr, I just, you know, when you hear things like that and you think about the conversations that amongst black women,
mm-hmm.
is, is it still steeped in fair or is there any curiosity about talking to men and saying, Hey.
Is it
You, it's okay.
You can do this or can do black women hold the key to making black men feel comfortable in, in sexual expressions.
Starr Rocque: That's a, Ooh, that's a really good question.
That's a really deep question too.
Um, I think, I don't know if it's just black women
that told the key.
I think because.
So and so from one of the, the layers of this that I'm thinking about, right?
Like as a black woman, you think about how society conditions you to, um, get a man, keep a man.
Mm-hmm.
If you don't keep that man, you're doing something wrong.
Mm-hmm.
So as a woman, you find out your man is cheating.
Not, not just cheating, but then he's cheating with another man.
You as a woman can't compete with a man.
So that that's kind of a layer Yeah.
To it.
That could add to some shame from a woman's perspective too.
Like maybe you don't wanna talk about it or tell your friends like, yeah, he's cheating with a man.
If you tell your friends you're cheating with a woman, they're like, all let's go beat.
Beat that bitch.
Whatever.
Right?
Jay Ray: Then
Starr Rocque: when,
Sir Daniel: Where she at?
Starr Rocque: what do you do better?
Like, which is crazy and.
It's crazy, but a lot of people feel that way.
Right?
Right.
Like, oh, if he's cheating, what do I need to do that?
That's kind of like steeped in that, like that shame.
Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.
Starr Rocque: Um, I think, um, it starts with, I think there's value in safe spaces.
Uh, like for, for men to have their safe spaces and women to have their safe spaces and the, the eighties and the they, them to have their safe spaces.
Yes.
But at some point we have to be able to come together and, and, and discuss this.
I think.
Black women that hold the key.
But I think if this is one of those group projects Yeah.
That we can come together on and sort of, um, really, uh, push this conversation forward.
Black women do tend to be the drivers of cultural discussion.
Mm-hmm.
So may maybe, but I know ultimately I feel like this is, this has gotta be a group project.
Jay Ray: Ooh, So I think one of the things that hindsight gives us the ability to do, and I think I apply this to.
"Another Man".
Is recognizing, once again, going back to that thing of like, there are a, a, a, a reflection of that time and we have the opportunity with what we know now to kind of reframe the conversation.
So it doesn't mean we have to throw away "Another Man", it's just contextualize them.
And I love that Mel who.
Was the head of West End Records was like, Hey, many years later, I got him to do like a remix of that song.
Mm-hmm.
To kind of pull out some of the things that were like, eh, you know, I know we did that in 84, but we really shouldn't have done that.
So let's kind of like mm-hmm.
Pull that stuff back and I think.
We grow.
If people, if we're around long enough, we get the opportunity to grow and evolve.
And it's like, okay, yeah, we can change that.
We see comedians do it and I think it also can happen in songs, um, with what we learn.
So, um, I think they're necessary, but I also think we give people the chance to change.
Starr Rocque: Agreed.
Yeah.
Jay Ray: Um, why?
And I think we may have hit on this, but I think this is kind of a, a good question or something for us to ponder.
Why are songs about diverse romantic experiences important for us to hear?
What are you, what are y'all feeling?
Sir Daniel: You can.
go Starr that.
Starr Rocque: Okay.
Diversity always gives you a different perspective, and that's what's important because that helps empathy building, which we clearly are in a world that needs a lot more of.
Um, so that, that's my main thing.
Um, and sometimes you just get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again.
Sometimes you do want a little bit of.
Spice or something different.
Sir Daniel: I agree totally.
Um, yeah, it's, um, there's so many stories to be told right Mm-hmm.
there.
We are not a monolithic people, Mm-hmm.
you know, we all have different lived experiences and the thing about music is that music and especially popular music, taps into.
All different facets of humanity.
So why not
Jay Ray: Yeah.
Sir Daniel: tap into different, um, expressions of love?
Because most, most songs are about love, are about relationships.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And so are we just gonna completely ignore.
You You know, a a, a whole community, a whole section of the human race Mm-hmm.
that also experiences love, heartbreak, Yes.
um, relationships, so on and so forth, joy, pain, all of those things.
So we gotta have 'em if we don't have 'em.
The, if we didn't have these types of songs.
It just wouldn't be as exciting.
Music would not be as exciting.
Uh, I could say as a DJ it wouldn't be as exciting, Mm-hmm.
um, to, to have to play music 'cause everything will be about the same thing.
And then again, you are ignoring a whole, uh, consumer base.
mm-hmm.
And, and the lives that they're leading.
So, um, yeah, it's important to have these.
And there's, and there's been other songs.
There's been, you know, uh, Katy Perry, I Kissed the girl and, Mm-hmm.
and, um, to Michelle and o Cellos, Mm-hmm.
if that was your man, mm-hmm.
he wasn't last
Jay Ray: night.
Mm-hmm.
So
Sir Daniel: different songs many different songs and, and, and we all know them and they're hits and they're, we enjoy them, so we gotta have it.
Jay Ray: Yeah.
No, I completely agree.
And I think, um, so Butch Ingram, um, when reflecting on the song, uh, Butch wrote the song and produced the song, um, said that, um, people are having these experiences every day.
Mm-hmm.
And at the time when "Another Man" came out, people just weren't putting it in the song.
You know what I mean?
Um, and so.
The, the beauty about artists being able to reflect, lived experience like in music is just like an important part of learning for I think a lot of folks.
Um, and so, yeah, no, I absolutely agree.
We have to have these diverse experiences show up in our music.
It just makes, it makes it all more listen, it gives us a more, expands our worldview and makes our lives a little bit more, a little bit more interesting, a little bit more spicy.
That's why the arts is under attack.
That is, you better talk about that Starr.
You are absolutely right.
Like they don't want us to have these experiences because guess what?
People start to open up and they start to learn and they start to experience and me like, oh it, but it doesn't have be this because I heard it in this song.
Right?
Or I got inspired by this song.
Mm-hmm.
They don't want that to happen.
It's right there.
We got lessons in all of this.
Right under our noses.
Our freedom is our, we have all, we have given ourselves the blueprints to our freedom.
Time and time and time again.
Starr Rocque: History again.
This is why history is under attack.
Jay Ray: There It's Starr.
Where can folks connect with you?
Let our folks know when, when they want connect with Starr Rocque.
Where can they connect with you?
Starr Rocque: You can find me at.
Starr, S-T-A-R-R-R-O-C-Q-U-E.
I was gonna say, I'm like, lemme think about these platforms because I'm like, I'm less, I'm trying to do less and less on social media, but definitely like Blue Sky.
Mm-hmm.
Um, threads for sure.
Instagram.
I'm, I'm, I'm around.
Jay Ray: Yeah.
Cool beans.
Listen, we appreciate it so much, and for all of y'all tuning in, if you can see our faces, if you can hear our voices, make sure that you subscribe wherever you are, share the show with your friend.
Uh, let them know.
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Make sure that you visit our website at queuepoints.com.
You can watch our whole archive of shows.
There are a lot of shows that you can watch over there.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, you can also visit our magazine, our digital publication, Queue Points Mag, where we got some additional content, uh, related to the show.
And ne last but not least, shop our store, store dot Queue Points.com.
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We appreciate y'all, we love y'all.
Sir Daniel: All right, well that's gonna do it for us.
What do I always say in this life?
You have a choice.
You can either pick up the needle or you could let the record play.
I'm DJ Sir Daniel,
Jay Ray: My name is Jay Ray.
That's Starr Rocque.
That's
Sir Daniel: Starr Rocque.
And this is Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history.
We'll see you on the next go round.
Peace.
Jay Ray: Peace y'all.