No tractor talk in bed.

Got it.

Welcome to Barnyard Language.

We are Katie and Arlene, an Iowa sheep farmer, and an Ontario dairy

farmer with six kids, two husbands, and a whole lot of chaos between us.

So kick off your boots, reheat your coffee, and join us for

some barnyard language, honest.

Talk about running farms and raising families.

In case your kids haven't already learned all the swears from being in the barn,

it might be a good idea to put on some headphones or turn down the volume.

While many of our guests are professionals, they

aren't your professionals.

If you need personalized advice, consult your.

Welcome back to another episode of Barnyard Language.

Thank you for joining us again on the podcast today.

It is our special Valentine's Day episode, and our husbands

are disappointed they didn't get invited back, but we have another, I

don't think they're disappointed at all.

You don't

think there's, I don't know.

My husband was curious about whether he was coming back, was

Jim, Jim didn't wanna come back

again.

Jim looked fairly joyful at not being involved again, although I

know he and Hugh are, uh, in fairly close messenger contact these days.

I think they could probably

just

call each other if they wanna

talk.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

So what is going on in Iowa these days?

Uh, packing Arlene.

That's it.

You're getting, how many bags are you're bringing?

Are you just trying to get everything into one very small bag?

You

know I'm moving right?

? Yeah.

You're, you got a passport now you're moving to Canada.

That's not quite the same as a, I'm

outta here, I'm gonna to Orleans Never said anything about coming back.

I tend to be a horrible over packer, so I'm trying to overpack so that

then I can unpack like two thirds of it and pack like a normal human.

This is my, got it.

My approach this time.

So we'll see how it goes.

Yes.

And we have put out a call to any Eastern Ontario listeners if you want

to come hang out with us, you have to join the Facebook group first, cuz

that's where the details are gonna be.

But if you live near me, which is, you know, Eastern Ontario,

then you can come and see Katie because she's going to leave Iowa.

And you can come and see Arlene too, because

it's not like she, yeah.

She see.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I still live there.

How is everyone feeling?

Do the kids know you're leaving?

Um, I think so.

it's still a while

off.

I usually don't tell my people until like the day before.

Yeah.

I hadn't told him yet.

I think daddy did, uh, the boy child once he heard that there weren't

any tractors and I wasn't going to the beach, he doesn't care.

Yeah, I understood in that the girl child, I think she was watching TV

when he told her, so I don't think she even heard him, but you know.

No, I don't think they care.

I heard your kids are warming up some Iowa jokes though, so that's good.

Yes.

Yeah.

You impressive.

Didn't news any Iowa jokes, but whatever.

I was

telling Katie the other day, my now 15 year old just turned 15 this week.

That was one of our, uh, updates in our house.

We had another, uh, age upgrade and he's like inches taller than me now.

Um, they went on a boys' weekend to Syracuse in, uh, New York State,

which isn't all that far from us.

And so my husband took the three boys and they spent the,

the weekend down there just to.

Have a change of scenery, do something different.

So I asked my 15 year old, what are you looking forward to

doing when you're in the states?

And uh, he's like, healthcare jokes, . And I said, that's not very nice.

And he said, well, that's freedom for you . So

he's already ready to start.

15 year old is making healthcare jokes.

Yeah,

that's, I, he knows about the difference in our healthcare systems.

I'm not sure how much he actually knows, but he knows that it's, that it's

a, a good way to make fun of people.

Apparently.

I don't know what he's learning on YouTube, but let's be honest.

But hopefully the jokes are good.

Katie, Katie can vet them.

Yeah.

So it's happening on your farm, Arlene.

Well, we're getting a fun mix of weather.

It went from minus 35 to plus five today.

So good pneumonia weather for, um, animals, but I, I should

knock on wood or something.

Um, so far things are okay.

Um, it was a really weird swing and a few things froze, but then, you

know, immediately thought out and now it's weird and warm and yeah, just

strange, strange weather stuff going on.

Um, like I said, the boys went away for the weekend, so it was just my

daughter and I here in the house for a couple days, which was kind of nice.

Very quiet.

And I actually set up a little podcasting, like parin setup.

So we are not professionals, as any listeners will know.

Um, but until this week I had been.

Taking everything from its various hiding places around the house

and bringing it to our toy room.

And that's where I would record.

And then I have to pack everything up and put it all away again.

So I actually cleared out a tiny corner in a cabinet that still

holds our dress up clothes, but now has a little space for me.

So I have my own little laptop and my microphone and everything is set

up all the time so I don't have to unpack and repack everything every

time, which has been a huge bonus.

And then typically my microphone and my headphones work when I log in every

time, which didn't always work before.

So that is a huge bonus as well.

Especially because this was a busy week.

We had four interviews in one week, Katie.

It was a lot.

It's a lot.

It's a lot.

Yeah.

We are actually pre-recording a bit, so that'll hopefully.

Swing us through some of the busier farm times because we've been so efficient

through the winter and means Katie can take a break and come to Ontario too.

So next week's record

together in person going

crazy.

Yeah, we might record together in person for the first time and see each other

in person for the second time ever.

Can you tell We're excited?

Yeah.

Yay.

Yeah.

Yay.

Anyway, um, we are excited to share this Valentine's Day episode with you and

I think that you're all going to enjoy what our guest has to say, so here she is

and I'm gonna interrupt you right here, Arlene.

If any of our listeners thought that I was not that excited today, it's

because there is a pot roast cooking in my kitchen and it is two hours past

lunchtime and I am very, very hungry and it smells incredible and I've been

having any, so you're difficult time sitting here smelling this damn pot roast.

Fruit supper that I can't eat now anyway.

Oh,

sure.

You can go hack a slice off.

No, like it's not finished cooking.

It's Oh yeah.

Yuck.

But it smells really, really good , so, okay.

Well you can't

smell the pots.

I'm just wanting people to know that it's, it's not Arlene, it's me and my pot roast.

That is your

energy equates to Yes.

What's in the slow cooker.

Yeah.

. All right.

Here she is.

Today we are talking to Carrie Pollard, who's joining us from Ontario for a

very special Valentine's Day episode.

So Carrie, we start each of our interviews with the same question.

And as you probably know, this is the way to introduce yourself to our listeners.

And we always ask, what are you growing?

So for our farming guests, that's crops and livestock, but also kids and

businesses and lots of other things.

So Carrie, what are you growing?

Well, we're grain farmers here.

We're just, our farm is north of Guelph, Ontario, and so we grow

soybeans, wheat, and corn primarily.

Um, obviously all of our fields are covered in snow and freezing rain

specifically today, but, but that's the crops that we primarily grow.

Um, we're also growing five children and ranging in age from one to 14,

so quite a, quite a space there.

And we have a best at home puppy as well.

Uh, so basically most of my days are filled with, uh, cleaning up a lot of

poo and cleaning up a lot of messes.

Like that would be, uh, probably 60%, I would say at least of my

day is, is doing that kind of work.

Um, and I'm also, um, helping to grow two different businesses.

I've started my own private practice flourish with compassion psychotherapy,

um, and I've helped co-found the National Farmer Mental Health Alliance.

So we're, we're trying to grow those as well.

that is a lot

of different things all at the same time.

? Yes.

. So Carrie, how did you get into

training do you have specifically for working with couples?

Uh, they've written a lot of books on, uh, couples work and family work.

They have 40 plus years of experience, uh, researching couple work, but

also working with, I think they said something like 3000 couples.

And so I really value their insights and all of.

The techniques and skills that they encourage people to develop are really

simple, really strengths focused, and it just really resonates with my

own personal experience, even just in my relationship with my husband.

And so you'll find today, whenever I'm asked a question, I might be

doing like a little plug for, for the Gottman's just because they are near

and dear to my heart and I really value their, their insight and couples work.

But I will say with the things that I do answer today, um, all of

that is really based on my personal experience and of course some of

my training, but it's everybody's relationship experience is unique.

So it's not meant to be therapeutic advice by any means.

And I love how you ta you start your podcast and just encourage

people to consult their people.

Um, so if anyone is listening today and they do really feel like they need

some support in their relationships, whether it be with their spouse or

their family members, um, encourage you to go to the National Farmer

Mental Health Alliance Resources page.

Uh, we list all the kinds of resources that can be available both

in Canada and the US that are, are available for farmers specifically.

So we already had your co-founder of the National Farmer's Mental Health

Alliance on, at a previous episode for, but for people who haven't caught

up on every single episode, can you give like a brief outline of what that

is and why the two of you started it?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, uh, Loren and I connected, um, maybe about a year and a half ago.

We had been, uh, connecting with a similar farm organization to offer some workshops

and we just connected right away.

We recognized the gap and the need, uh, for providing basically mental health

supports for farmers specifically.

And what we, we noticed the gap is specifically having therapists

that have that farm experience.

So have lived the farm life, either our farmers or from farm

families, um, or currently farming, and my case of farming partner.

And so, It's having that kind of unique experience and also, uh,

working as a therapist really does help kind of understand the

unique stressors and pressures that, that for Families Center Go.

And so we collaborated together to create the National Farmer

Mental Health Alliance.

And what we do is we do offer, um, to.

Resources and supports to agricultural organizations like

workshops as well as articles.

And we also, uh, are providing something called agriculture Informed Therapy to

other therapists and life coaches so that they can also, uh, ha come into,

uh, their work with their farm clients with an more informed perspective.

Yeah,

I think that's really important work, and I'm, I'm excited about the, the

connections that the two of you are are making and I hope that that.

expands from here.

So the main reason we had you on today is because we thought Valentine's Day

last year we had our own spouses on, and not saying that we need therapy

necessarily, but we thought that this was a good way to, to also celebrate

Valentine's Day and acknowledge that farm couples do have unique challenges if

you're in a, a partnership of some kind.

And so I feel like one of the beginning questions for a lot of people is one, how

do you get your partner to go to therapy if you think you need to go to therapy

and how do you know if you need therapy?

So those are kind of different questions, but, but the kind of the

basis of when should you go and how do you get someone else to agree to go

well, and I think they are so interconnected, right?

And so I think in terms of who can benefit, I think anybody

can, like, in terms of our relationships, They're hard work.

Um, you know, I think any relationship is hard work, but farming relationships,

there can be additional stresses of having long hours, a lot of pressure,

a lot of demands, and a lot of time your partner is also your coworker.

Um, and so having such significant overlap, it can just be really

helpful to make time and space to kind of work through personal issues.

But even sometimes, especially like when you're considering succession planning

and other challenges, it, it can be farm related as well, where you just kind

of really need some support to resolve any kind of conflict or confusion.

Um, I often think of it like, you just wanna, sometimes you can just go

into it just as like, like a tune-up.

Maybe everything's kind of flowing really well, but it would just be nice

to improve these small little things.

And so just like we might, I know this time of the year we're made.

Basically maintaining all of our machinery so that it's

ready to go for planting season.

And so it's not that there's any specific problem, but we're trying to

do some troubleshooting to make sure that we don't discover a problem,

uh, right in the middle of planting.

And so I think it's similar with relationships.

Sometimes just having, uh, a therapist that you feel comfortable with to go to

on a semi-regular basis can just be a way to keep making sure that the, your

relationship is flowing well in terms of getting your partner to therapy.

That is a tricky one.

I mean, we don't have control over anyone but ourselves, and so it's not something

you can certainly force anyone into.

That being said, I'm a big fan of strategic communication.

Uh, I call it strategic and in the sense that manipulative sounds really bad.

So strategic is just meant by getting a buy-in, right?

And so I think a lot of times when we w you know, I find people, when they

approach their partner, it's like, you're doing this, so we need to go,

you need to go get help over this.

And instead, I think if you approach it as a we issue, We're having

problems communicating right now.

Um, we're having troubles connecting.

We're not, you know, we're not connecting on a physical level and I miss that, you

know, just going into it with a we problem and kind of joining with that, that

challenge can really reduce defensiveness with your partner and might increase the

likelihood that they'll, they'll wanna go.

And then I think it's never harmful to kind of sweeten the deal afterwards.

Um, if you have kids like me, it would be kind of like,

let's go for dinner afterwards.

Like, let's have some uninterrupted time away from the kids and then like, let's

do something we could enjoy afterwards.

I like that to the, um, making it a little less onerous to go to therapy.

So if someone has never gone to couples therapy, what can they expect?

And it seems like that fear of, you know, for those of us who've gone to therapy

before, like couples therapy is still a stressful idea, but I'm sure for folks

who've never gone, it's gotta be a real.

, um, not super appealing thing to do with your life every year.

Very small amount of time away from

the farm.

Exactly.

And I think, I think that's important to recognize, like it's just any

kind of, even doing individual therapy can be really difficult.

It's, it's one of those things where you go into it hoping to feel

better, but sometimes initially as you're kind of opening up really

painful things, either individually or as a couple, it's really hard.

And so to dedicate really limited time to that can be really challenging.

Cuz after, after a really difficult couple session, two people might

feel really vulnerable and raw and like maybe even more agitated and

then have to head back to work.

And so I think part of the way of kind of preparing for, it's just

recognizing that creating change is hard.

And, and that's kind of what therapy is.

Therapy is kind of a blend of having a safe place to talk through things.

But it's also a space to create change cuz you're often going because there's

something that you want to be a little bit different or maybe a lot different.

And so I think just kind of going into it, knowing that it's probably

gonna be hard work, but farming is hard and, and it's worth it.

So, you know, I think that it's, it's just recognizing that to create the

kind of change that you desire, it can really be helpful in terms of like what

to expect from a practical standpoint.

Um, every therapist kind of work a little bit different.

Like when I work with couples, I generally meet with them together cuz I

just wanna make sure that I don't seem bias towards one person over the other.

And so my first meeting will be meeting with two people together.

We'll often just kind of get a a a general sense of what the problem story is,

like what's going on, what's not working right from each other's perspective.

And then we'll move into what, what is it that you're looking for, right?

So we kind of move more to a story of hope and kind of get a sense of what,

what each person would like more of.

And what you can expect too is just kind of having uninterrupted time.

And I think that's so rare, like, My husband and I can never create, complete

a conversation without an interruption.

He might get a text, excuse me, for, you know, for seed sale or he, you

know, one of the kids for sure interrupt us undoubtedly, probably repeatedly.

So to get a uninterrupted time to have like full, complete

sentences, a full conversation.

And then couples therapy.

I think like when I saw it on tv, I remember seeing this one episode on

this old TV show when I was a kid, and they both had these like rubber

bats and they were kinda like hitting each other as a way of like working

through their anger with each other.

And couples therapy isn't like that at all.

I mean, it's the, the therapist isn't there to break up the fights.

The therapist is really just there to kind of help you understand each other.

And a lot of times what's happening is this, when we're communicating

with our partners, , we're not hearing what they're saying.

We're just listening to respond rather than listening to understand.

Um, and so sometimes just having another person in that room with you to help

interpret what's going on with each of you just really increases that understanding,

which then can increase the connection.

And I often think that's my role as a therapist is like to really

get people to hear each other,

it seems like too, it's good to have that pressure to act like a grownup

when you're having those conversations.

Because if it's already really hard to get the time to have a conversation and

it's a conversation you don't want to be having, it can be really easy to justify

letting yourself get distracted or letting yourself get interrupted or mm-hmm.

, whatever else.

And I would like to think that most people are gonna fight a little

bit fairer if there's a, a third party in a room, you know, , um,

at least for the first one or two sessions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keeps you a little bit on your better behavior, hopefully.

Yeah.

So Carrie, we pulled our listeners and people who follow us on so social media

for some ideas, for some questions.

And the one that I feel like comes up all the time, no matter what kind

of farmer you are or what your uh, situation is, is that having that

feeling that the farm always comes first.

And I feel like especially once you have kids, that that brings a lot of resentment

and sometimes disappointment or hurt from whichever partner feels like they're the

one being put on the back, back burner.

And sometimes kids can exacerbate that because then it's just one more thing

to take care of and, and your needs just end up at the bottom of the pile again.

So how do farm couples specifically cope with.

That idea, that feeling like the farm always comes first and, and working,

working our way through that as couples.

Yeah, I think that is a really fair question and something that I definitely

hear comes up a lot and definitely something that I can say I can even

relate to as well in my own relationship, cuz it is, it is really challenging.

Um, and I think that, you know, what I find works for me is just learning

to be flexible with expectations.

Like obviously, um, for us, the planting seasons are, or the, the

busy seasons are planting in harvest.

So, um, our contact with each other is really minimal and we're each kind of.

Working independently towards kind of the same goal, which is to keep

the farm and the family stuff going.

And so I think being flexible with those expectations based on the season.

Um, but I think also it's, you know, a lot of times I think we expect, um, it to

be like a relationship in order for it to be maintained and to feel okay with it.

It needs big things cuz like you said, when you don't have a lot of

time, eat it in for yourself just to even have a shower some days.

Um, it can be really difficult to pour anything else out into your relationship.

And I think the biggest thing that I take in this and, and here I

am already going to the Gottman's research, is that they find that

small gestures make a huge difference.

Like a lot of times we think it's like this big thing that

we have to go on, on dates.

I can't remember, I think it's over been, been over a year since my husband

and I have been on a, a date, an actual date where we went out and I

wasn't preparing a meal or he wasn't.

So, you know, those kind of things are wonderful if you

get the opportunity to do that.

But if your lifestyle.

Or your firm doesn't allow that.

There can be other ways.

And so I think, um, small gestures can be like basically paying

attention to the other person.

Um, it can be sending a quick text or a funny meme, or it can be, a lot of

times we have, during busy seasons, we have conversations on the phone.

I think it breaks up the monotony of his time in the field, and it also

helps me have like another adult human to talk to since I have all

small children, mostly around me.

Um, and so I think a, a big part of is that, is just recognizing those small

connections can make a huge difference.

And, and not just like the verbal mental connection, but also

like the physical connection.

Um, having a quick hug and kiss before you go can be just this way of like,

okay, yeah, we're parents, we're partners.

We're working together potentially on the farm as well, but, but we're,

we're also romantic partners too.

And so sometimes something that could take maybe five seconds, a

quick hug goodbye, could be just that gentle reminder of like, Hey,

We're we're also married partners or, or committed life partners too.

And so I think it's just recognizing that those small things can make a, a,

a big difference, can help make each other feel appreciated and valued.

And then I think can hopefully reduce any kind of resentment or, or disappointment.

So how do we not talk about business when we're in bed?

Because I'll tell you something there.

It, it kills the romance to start, you know, any romance that might be

left at this point, the minute you start talking about planting or cattle

in bed, um, it's gone, you know?

Mm-hmm.

, it's mm-hmm.

. So how do you keep work conversations at work when you work

with at home, with your family?

Yeah.

I think that's a really good question.

I have to say, like, initially my answer would be you can't, um, I, I don't know.

Like I've seen couples and we've tried it ourselves to try to like

put these like boundaries around conversations, but then inevitably one

of us violates it and ends up bringing up something related to the farm.

And I'd say the other thing too is around kids.

Like when we actually do go on a date, um, we're like, okay,

we're not gonna talk about kids.

We're gonna like talk about our adult stuff and, and be there.

But the kids and the farm are both two really important things in our life.

So it just naturally comes up when we're talking about things that matter.

And so I think that, When it comes to the bedroom, I agree with you.

Like I would really love to see that ability to kind of make the bed,

um, just for sleeping in sex only.

Like if you could just do just those two things.

And I mean, no iPads, no phones, no tv.

Like if you can keep those two things just for the bed, I think

that's a beautiful boundary and I fully encourage people to do that.

Um, but I think otherwise kind of having boundaries around the talk around the

farm, I think it's good to be intentional when you're at home or when you're at

the dinner table or when you're trying to do some non-farm activities to just say,

Hey, let's be curious about each other.

Let's be curious about what each person is doing outside

of, of our farm and our family.

And I think it's also important to be flexible to allow the farm stuff

to come up because it's one of those things that if I were to say the

two of you don't think about a pink bunny for the next one minute, you're

gonna think about a pink bunny.

In fact, probably the pink bunny popped into your head immediately, right?

And so as soon as we start to try to be too rigid with our boundaries,

We end up violating it right away.

And then a lot of people just give up on it.

So I think if you can kind of say to yourself, Hey, let's be intentional

around focusing on each other and being curious about each other and allow

ourselves to talk about the farm or the kids or anything else as it comes

up, I think that'll be, uh, a lot easier to, to kind of maintain that.

So I know right now, um, it's, it's our sort of our off season,

our equipment maintenance phase.

But my husband, what he does has his kind of off-farm interest.

And you're gonna laugh cuz I'm saying off-farm.

But what he likes to do is he likes to restore Massey tractors.

So it's not like totally un farm related

It's still farm related, let's be honest.

But, but it's, he's really passionate about that.

He's passionate about that.

Plus he restores some Honda dirt bikes and so that's one of the

beautiful things that he does.

So we talk about the pharma a little bit last this time of the year and

it gives us the opportunity to talk about other things cuz he's able to

invest in other things about himself.

And I think that's something that we have to be really mindful of, like as a couple.

as an individual in a couple.

It's taking some time and space to have your own interests of things that

you do that's separate from the firm.

I mean, for example, this podcast that the two of you're doing is farming related,

but it's also probably really needing some kind of like personal values and

needs and gives you something else to get excited about, um, and connect with

other people and have great stories to share with your partners at a later point.

So I think investing in yourself, being curious about your partner and being

flexible with those boundaries can, can make a really, really great difference.

Except for the bed, if you can keep the bed sa sacred, that would be really nice.

No

tractor talk in bed.

Got it.

That being said, we don't , we violate that all the time.

So we had a bunch of more questions about Com communication and I've kind

of categorized them a little bit.

So we had a couple that were about both kind of on the farm and in the house, how

we communicate about the little stuff and you know, whether it's on the farm, trying

not to make one or the other, feel like an employee or same thing in the house

if, if one person is kind of the lead when it comes to household activities.

Not making the other person feel like they're being nagged or delegated

to, but also sharing the work.

But communicating though, you know, the stuff that can end up being

kind of nitpicky, how, what are some tricks for communicating those

types of things with each other?

? Well, I think that's a,

I'm gonna be honest.

I even last night before, um, as I was preparing for the podcast, I, I sat

down with my husband and it was like, Hey, here's some of the questions.

What do you think about the answers?

Um, and I was really excited that our answers actually weirdly aligned.

I didn't expect that.

Um, but for him, his answer to this question would be, we're a team.

Go into it with a team mentality and make sure that you create systems that work.

And then if you create systems that work, um, then you shouldn't

be having a lot of problems.

So you can tell he comes out as with a really wonderful

managerial perspective for me.

I agree.

You're a team.

That's a, that's a huge part.

And I think that when you're working with your partner or with your family,

it's so much easier to speak without editing cuz these are like your people,

they're kind of stuck with you, so you feel like you can just kind of.

, whatever comes into your head and let it come right outta your mouth.

Um, and it's even easier to do that when you're feeling stressed or overwhelmed

or you haven't had very much sleep.

Um, and so we can all kind of get irritable and have a

hard time choosing our words.

But that being said, like I'm a huge advocate for editing as much as possible.

I think it helps relationships be healthy.

So when you think about, uh, addressing your partner, if it's an IM piggy

thing or if it's like in my case cuz I would be the employee in a relationship

where you have to talk down to someone in a way about something that's being

done wrong, I think it's just really important to just be aware of your words.

Think about how you would talk to your bank manager, or how you'd speak to

your, um, one of your kids, or maybe even the teacher of one of your kids.

And just find a way to, to communicate it in a way.

can be a little bit kinder.

Um, and, and, but give yourself grace when that doesn't happen, cuz you can

always apologize and make repairs.

Um, but as much as possible, I think just being a little bit more careful with

your words can make a huge difference.

And I have to say, it was funny cuz when I was reading through these questions

yesterday, I had received actually a, a text message and I, there was this whole

series, um, on social media of, uh, people posting their conversations with their

partners, uh, in farming that they have over tax, which are really, really funny.

And so I could probably post this one, but my husband was asking me to

order this electronic transfer pub, but, and I give him props for this,

he actually added the word please, which to me makes a huge difference.

And then he added a kissy face.

So it probably only took an extra one to two seconds to just soften that request.

And, and what it did is it actually made me wanna take a break for my work, order

the pump, and then go back to my work.

And I'm gonna be a bit honest.

Like if he had asked in a more of an abrupt way, like, get this pump for me, I

probably wouldn't have done it right away.

Like I, it really would've like been like on the list,

but not at the top of the list.

And so being mindful of our communication doesn't have to take a lot of work

and it can have a huge impact of wanting to work together on things.

Yeah, that's really true.

Because the way you get asked to do something or told

to do something is . Yeah.

And whether you get asked or you get told

, those are two, that's a

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's definitely, yeah.

And as a parent, we as a parent, we know that that's, that's

a distinction too, right?

And sometimes you have to be told to do something and, but

most of the time we can be asked.

Yeah.

It is.

Yeah.

It feels better.

What about, yeah, what about situations when you ask for help because you

genuinely need it or want it, and the response that you get back is that

they're too busy or too tired, or like we said before the farm comes first.

How do mm-hmm.

, how do you deal with that situation when you're, you are putting yourself

out there and asking for help, and the answer is no or not right now.

Yeah.

And I think that comes up a lot.

Um, and it's, and it's tough.

Like I, I, I do really think there isn't a perfect answer for that.

I think it, it's one of those things where I always use the word both and like, I

like the word and recognize you can have multiple feelings at one time, and you

can be really too tired and busy to want to help and you can push yourself to.

and sometimes, um, you might wanna give your partner grace and let them have

the, get a let them off the hook, right?

And so I think that again, we have to recognize that we're in this together.

We're a team, we're a team, as in terms of how we're approaching our, our family.

We're a team as in terms of how we're approaching our farm.

Um, and I think it's just really important to, as much as

possible, be able to be there.

Because I often find most people, whether no matter what side you

are, in the partnership of the firm, it's really hard to ask for help.

We have a lot of strong people who are incredibly resilient.

And so by the time most people are asking for help, you're really needing the help.

Like, you're not, you're, you're probably at the breaking point.

And so I think as much as possible for us to be able to say, I can push

it a little bit, a little bit more.

My, my husband always says, you can push it 20% further, which isn't always

a healthy thing, but it's sometimes when it comes to our relationships, if

you could just kind of give yourself a little extra push, whether that be

to help with cleaning up after dinner or bathing the kids, um, or maybe just

going for a walk together because maybe you just need some time away from the

house and, and to be able to be together.

I think that investment is really important too, cuz I think that a lot

of us have to remember that, you know, as much as the farm is a priority

for most of us, and I forget what the statistic is, I think it's somewhere

around 90% of farms are family run.

And so the family is important to you and a lot of times there

is no farm without the family.

And so saving some of that energy to invest in your relationship

is, is really critical.

And in order to invest in your relationship, you also

have to invest in yourself.

It's that analogy that you always hear when you're on an airplane

that you have to kind of put the, the oxygen mask on yourself.

I think a lot of times when our, our partners or ourselves say we're too

tired and busy, it's because we've pushed ourself beyond capacity and

not left anything for ourselves.

So I think if we can find space to, to care for ourselves, then it gives

us a little bit more energy, lack to also care for our relationships.

Yeah.

We had another listener ask about helping a spouse or partner who doesn't

have a farm background to better understand stressful seasons or, or,

you know, farming in, in general.

And I know, you know, that's a lot of your work with the Mental Health

Alliance is, is helping to therapists to understand, but in a partnership, I

imagine that's a, a unique challenge is trying to, to have someone else adapt to

a lifestyle that they didn't grow up with.

So do you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, and I think that is so important and I have to say, , that is definitely

something that I can relate to.

I mean, prior to to meeting my husband, I grew up in a rural community.

I grew up in Chatham, Ontario, so really small community.

I did corns de tossling.

So it wasn't that I didn't grow up in a farming community, cause I did very much

grow up in that kind of rural experience.

Uh, but my family are not farmers.

Um, so I didn't have that kind of experience growing up.

And so, you know, when I got married and became a part of my husband

and his family, I, it was, it was very eye-opening for me to see what

that, what that experience was like.

And I just have to say what has been really helpful for

me is having him prepare me.

It's like, this is what I have on the agenda today, or this is what my week

looks like, or this is what this, you know, this month is gonna look like,

this is how busy it's going to be.

And so if I know, um, that I'm going to be doing most things by myself, uh,

whether it be navigating the childcare drop off or anything on the home front.

then that helps me be like, okay, I know this is, this is happening.

So I think preparation and communication about what to expect and what's going on

can really, really make a big difference.

And I think both partners can just continue to be curious about each other.

Like, I think that the person with the non-farm job, it's really good for you

to ask questions like, what's happening?

What's going on right now on the farm?

And, and vice versa.

So I think if we're curious about each other and try to look for

the best in our partner, it can be a lot easier to be patient.

Um, even during those really, really frustrated times.

And I know that we, each year, like we've had to learn how to be flexible.

Like I know the, the first few years I would, I would bring out,

um, meals, meals to the field and coffees and things like that.

And, and that helped me feel connected and involved.

Um, but then the more kids that added up , right?

It just got really, really, really stressful and overwhelming for me.

So even though it was good for the kids and it, and, and it was good for my

husband, it was, it was too overwhelming.

So we learned how to flex again and we figured out ways for, for him to be,

and, and for our family to be well fed.

But for me not to be taking on that additional task of running all over

the place, cuz our farms are, are quite spread out, sometimes hours apart.

So I think a big part is, is just learning to be, be flexible and figuring

out how you can support each other.

I

know, Carrie, it's made a huge difference in our relationship to try to really be

intentional about asking what the other one has going on because it's so easy

to get this whole list going in your head that you just sort of assumed that

it must be on some like, familial brain length, something that you know mm-hmm.

your, your partner will magically know what your priorities are and it.

It's really hard for anyone to interrupt their list of priorities, to

prioritize somebody else's priorities.

Um mm-hmm.

. So it turns out that it's a lot easier if you work on your list of priorities

together before either of you gets to.

I love that set in stone about it because especially on weekends.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, one of us will say, but I had this, this, this, and this planned.

I'm like, cool.

You didn't mention any of that until Saturday lunchtime, so Exactly.

You know?

Yeah.

Um, you can't expect too much buy-in from the rest of us.

How can we address when we can't share our burdens with our partner because

we know that it won't be good for their mental health and not in a, a martyrdom

kind of way, but there are just times that a problem shared is not a problem.

Hald, you know, I

agree.

. Yeah, I, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I, you know, you want to think that your partner can be your everything,

um, and that you can share things freely, but I agree with you.

Sometimes part of loving someone is recognizing when sharing something

with them would be too much.

But at the same time, you don't wanna be left alone and isolated

in, in dealing with that either.

And so I think that's why a big part of being healthy in a relationship

is to be healthy as an individual and to make sure that you have

your people and your supports that are people that you can talk to.

So if you can't share something with your partner, do you.

a friend that you can talk to about it, um, or to have your own therapist to be

able to kind of talk through and kind of get that, that, that needed support from.

Or a parent or, or, you know, anyone elsewhere that would be

that kind of healthy relationship.

So I don't, I think a lot of times we get these unhealthy messages of your partner

should be your everything and you should be able to tell everyone everything.

Well, sometimes sharing everything will make the relationship really unhealthy

and it could be really damaging.

And so I think it is about making sure that you have your people, your

space, your time to, to be able to talk about the things that are really

important but that, you know, your, your partner couldn't handle maybe at

that particular time or maybe ever.

Um, so yeah, I think I agree with you.

Like a problem shared is a problem hald, but that doesn't mean that you always

share with just that one person you might share it with, with other people.

Or maybe you journal about it.

Like for me, I have a journal, like I find it really accessible so that

if I'm overwhelmed by things, , I can really break it down in my head

and, and write it out because maybe I wouldn't be able to like text a

friend right away in that moment.

So I think it's about figuring out what you need to, to kind of take care of you.

I think too, maybe, especially with farmers, it seems like so many of us are

people who like to fix things, um mm-hmm.

that especially, you know, if I have a problem that's mostly emotional or

where there's a stress that really nothing is going to fix it except time

and there's really no control over the situation, handing that to someone who

deals with things entirely by fixing them is not going to be helpful.

Um, agreed.

It's just frustrating for everyone at that point, so.

Mm-hmm.

, one of the other questions we had gotten is, How we draw boundaries

when a partner refuses to get or accept professional help.

And it is really negatively impacting the family, especially if

there's, you know, kids involved.

And, I mean, mental health is a, a health problem.

It's nobody's fault that they have these issues or that

they're struggling with things.

But also you have, you know, occasionally small people whose safety and health

is your responsibility and, you know, and also for ourselves not being

stuck in a horribly unhappy situation.

. Okay.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that that is really important.

It definitely doesn't have an easy answer.

And before I get into that, I do wanna circle back around to something that

you had just said about how, um, some things you might not share with your,

your partner, because they might more go into the kind of that fixing mentality.

I mean, I agree wholeheartedly.

I think that that is, Something that happens a lot.

And I think that sometimes it's just recognizing, it's like, okay, well

there's gonna be certain people in our life that know how to make us laugh.

And there's certain people in our life who might be able to give really great advice.

And sometimes you need that fixing and sometimes you just need that

person that will just listen.

And sometimes you just need to hold that in yourself and not share it at all.

And it's, it's figuring out what you need, first of all is, is a big part.

And I do think that couples can work on that fixing piece.

Um, I know with my husband, cuz he's a fixer too, we've kind of come up

with this thing where it's like, do you need me to listen to help?

Or do you need me just to, to listen and be there?

And he's learned that for me and that this is gonna sound really weird, but I like,

I like being told it's gonna be okay.

Like even if it's not gonna be okay, I just want him to

tell me it's gonna be okay.

And, and just gimme a hug.

And so he's, he's learned that I don't always want advice

on how to handle situations.

So I think with partners sometimes if we tell them what we need and they're willing

to learn, Sometimes they can give us a little bit more and sometimes they can't.

And sometimes we just have to go to other people cuz they, they give

that, um, in an easier way for them.

So, but I'm really glad that you brought up the fixing thing

that really resonated with me.

Um, in terms of when, uh, someone has refusal to get professional help, I

think it, it's a tricky one and it can be really situation specific first of all.

Uh, but I think that if, if what the person is doing, if their behavior is

causing harm, um, and I, I can't help but thinking about like drinking and,

and how that can really come up that way.

Or, or maybe their emotions, their difficulty managing, like

anger can create a space where it doesn't feel safe for you.

Or like you said, for the little ones, I think the boundaries

might have to be more intense.

Um, I think when that happens, that's when we might have to draw some physical.

And potentially have that person leave for a period of time or have

us have a space that you can take you and the kids away to, to to be safe.

Um, so I think physical boundaries can be really important when there is something

happening that doesn't feel safe.

If things feel safe, but they're just hurtful or, or damaging in

some ways, then you can start kind of putting verbal boundaries down.

It's like, I understand you're really upset right now.

Um, we need to talk later cuz I can't, I can't hear what you're saying when

you're, this worked up and then just, you know, either taking space or the kids

with you from that person at that time going into another room, or even just

encouraging that person to kind of go do the thing that might help them calm down.

When it comes to getting professional help, I think the one

thing that doesn't work from my experience has been ultimatums.

Like a lot of times when we get really desperate, um, and someone in our

family is really struggling, sometimes we wanna throw it an ultimatum.

They're to say, if you don't do this, Then this will happen and

kind of drawing that hard line.

And then the person may not go, or they may go, but they may not actually try it.

It won't make any difference.

And so it's really important that when someone does get help,

that they're motivated to do it.

And so that's where I think ultimatums and boundaries are different, is like

an ultimatum is forcing someone to get help potentially before they're ready.

Where a boundary is saying, you know, if you don't get help with this,

then I have to, you know, we, we need to take a break for a little bit.

Or, um, we're gonna have to take space when this happens.

Or the kids and I are gonna go do this just because.

And it's not saying you have to do this or this, it's saying this isn't safe for us.

We have to do, we have to make these choices.

Um, until you're.

. So it, that way when the person does go, it is their, it is their choice.

Um, but it is so hard, right?

Like you could just, you, you, a lot of times when you're outside of the

experience, you can look in and say, well, these behaviors are so harmful.

This emotion's so harmful.

You know, that there can be help, um, available, whether it be medication

or treatment, um, or therapy.

But it's, it's hard cuz you're so helpless.

Your hands are tied.

We can't change another person.

We can't control another person.

We can just try to support them in it and protect ourselves

in the, the ones that we love.

Yeah.

I think too from, you know, guests we've talked to, especially livestock

farmers, you know, there's all these other lives that are depending on you.

And I feel like there's so many of us were raised with, you know, these

are the things where it's reasonable to leave and they're all very mm-hmm.

extreme situations.

and mm-hmm.

, I think especially in small towns, like people know that other people are gonna

talk about why they broke up or, you know, why one of them moved out or mm-hmm.

was this reasonable, and, you know, what horrible thing do we think was happening

because probably it was just that they weren't happy, but we'll come up with

something more dramatic because mm-hmm.

nobody just wants to hear that somebody wasn't happy.

Like, nothing exciting to gossip about there, you know?

And there's just so much other pressure that, you know, I, I feel like mm-hmm.

so many of us were raised with, you know, if your partner hits you, then you leave.

That's, that's the boundary and not right.

You know, but then you have kids and you realize, , they're learning how to be

people from what they're seeing you do.

Yes.

And that was, yeah, that's a terrifying thing.

I try not to think about too much because there's not enough

therapy in the world for that one.

Um, you know?

Mm-hmm.

like, oh, they're, they're learning how to treat their own partners

and how to expect to be treated from what they're seeing us do.

Um, exactly.

And that's, you know, having read some of Gottman's books myself, I really

like that so much of their philosophy seems to be centered around respecting

each other because Absolutely.

There's definitely days that I don't even really like my husband, sorry, dear.

Uh, , not sure if, I hope you're listening to this episode or not,

but I try to make sure that we always respect each other and that that's

what our kids are seeing because.

That is something that once you break it is pretty damn hard to get back.

I agree.

Okay.

Well now that we've had my therapy session for the day, that's good.

. Yay.

No, I think I, I think that, I think that is so important.

I, I'm reminded there's, uh, uh, you may have heard of her too.

Brene Brown talks about this thing called the marble jar.

And in relationships, you know, whenever you know someone does

something that builds our trust or that we feel we're respected,

it throws something in the marble.

It throws a marble in the jar, or several marbles in the jar.

But every time someone does something hurtful or harmful,

we start losing marbles.

And, and sometimes what happens when relationships break down

is there's just no marbles left.

You know, there's been just too many negative interactions or too

many betrayals of trust on a variety of different levels, or too much

disrespect or lack of appreciation.

And it just causes their relationship to, to totally break down.

And I agree with you that I think sometimes people will stay together

for the kids, but sometimes.

, you have to break up for the kids to show them that this is what a

healthy relationship looks like, and sometimes the healthiest relationships

are the ones that aren't together.

And so it's, it's, it's a tough one.

It's a tough one.

It, like I said, that's why I always think relationships take a lot of work and you

need to have both partners working on it.

Well, and I, I know too that with the respect thing, it, it turns out that

some signs of respect I think are pretty universal, but a lot of them are very

personality based and how much work you have to put into communicating what

you will find disrespectful and what.

you don't see as disrespectful.

Um, for example, in our house, one thing that is pretty common is we'll say, you

know, oh, this meal you made is horrible.

I'll get rid of it.

You know, I will eat all of it.

Mm-hmm.

so that you were not forced to eat this horrible thing.

And my husband did that once when we had somebody over for supper,

just didn't think about it and was like, oh, this is disgusting.

I will lead it so you don't have to.

And the look mm-hmm.

On your face that my husband would sit at the table and say this to me,

you know, where it never even occurred to me that it would be taken as being

disrespectful, because I do the same thing to him, and I'll be like, oh no,

this, this pie we bought is terrible.

You don't want any of this.

I'll just mm-hmm.

, I'll just eat it.

So you don't have to, you know, and , yeah.

How much we have to really communicate around.

what our families taught us and what we see about these things.

Mm-hmm.

, because they are not universal and mm-hmm.

, you know, I mean, there's things that are, but there's a lot that is not.

And, and making sure our kids know which of these things is not universal because

it, it does occur to me that I don't want my kids to think that going to someone's

house and insulting their cooking is a universally, um, acceptable thing to do.

Yeah.

That moment you're

embarrassed, you're like, oh, great.

Thanks baby.

So, while we're talking about family culture, another question that came

in from a listener was about that extended families piece, right?

I mean, so many of us are living very close or working with, or

maybe even living with, um, extended families, people who are not part

of our partnered relationship, but are part of our, our lives.

So what are some.

Some tips for how couples can approach the stresses that come in with other

people, , whether they be, I mean, I'm specifically talking about family,

but I mean, family can also be just the, you know, the, the close people

in your life that, that put pressure on your relationship that are not part

of it, but end up, uh, playing a part.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, so, you know, just as, as we're we're talking about these different

things, I'm finding a bunch of different I ideas kind of merging together and I

wish that I could, you could, everyone could, all the listeners could see me

cuz I would like to draw basically, uh, like a diagram where there's a whole

bunch of concentric circles at the center circle is just you, and then outside

of that circle is you and your partner.

And then outside of that circle can be maybe your kids.

Um, and then outside of that might be your parents, your in-laws, your other really

important people in as part of your life.

And then you might go a little bit further in those might be kind of like, You know,

I call them mom friends, uh, people that you're close to, but are just a little

bit outside of the, the other, uh, people.

It, it could be your accountant, but then you just kind of keep

going in terms of closeness and vulnerability and connection.

And then with your partner, I think it's really key to kind of recognize

that the two of you do have this circle that's apart from everybody else.

It's a special circle.

And in fact, I call it the circle of trust.

When I talk about it with my husband, I'm like, I'm gonna tell you something, but

don't go into the shop tomorrow and tell everybody in the shop what I just told

you, because that will literally happen.

Um, I'll be like, this is in our circle of trust, . And so, and it's

just, it's, it's finding a way to kind of respect some boundaries that

some of the conversations that you might have, even if it's about the.

Or maybe it's something even more personal that, that some things

just aren't meant to be, be shared.

And it's the same thing when you're given advice or, um, have other

people kind of creating expectations.

It's making sure that the two of you come together and say, okay, well this is,

this is what other people are expecting from us or wanting from us, or this

is something someone had said to me.

Um, and it's having that like really open communication to kind of say,

okay, well when this thing was said to me, this is how it made me feel.

And so it's just making sure that you have that safe place in your

circle with just your partner.

And then as we were talking about before, um, you also have your own circle.

So there's some things you're not even gonna share with your partner

and have boundaries around it.

So I think, uh, the big part is, is that when you're working with.

Um, or just working with other people that you're close to is making sure that

your partnership and your, maybe even just your immediate family has its own

kind of separate space of things that are okay to talk about and not talk

about outside of that and just protecting

it.

I know one thing that helped me a lot, Carrie, too, marrying into a family that

was very different from my own, um, was picturing myself wearing like a little,

you know, a pith helmet and carrying a notebook and like being a little

anthropologist and just trying to, to study these people instead of going, well,

what the hell is wrong with these people?

What the hell is wrong with me that I don't understand these people because

they all seem to think this is normal and maybe it is normal and I'm the one

who's screwed up and, you know, we've been married 10 years this spring and

it's getting a little better, I think . But, you know, um, trying to really be

aware of that, that it's not really that there's something wrong with you or them.

that it's, it turns out that you're different people and I really, I

like the idea too of your circles starting with just you as mm-hmm.

a person in your own right.

Without your partner and your kids mm-hmm.

and whatever else that you are still a, a self, you know, first and foremost.

Yeah.

And that's not a bad thing.

Um, it's not, so the other question I added here as a, as a fellow introvert

is how do you, I don't, I'm trying to like, think of how to say this.

That doesn't sound horrible.

What do you do on the days that you just don't give a shit about

making your marriage healthy?

Because there's some days that you know, the kids are sicker, the kids

need something and work needs something, and everybody else needs something.

And then, you know, you know that you should be a.

Better partner, but fuck it because, you know, you can feed

yourself and you're not on fire.

So figure it out like and I, I know that's a totally fine thing

occasionally, but it seems like it can be a real slippery slope and getting

back up that slope is, um, really hard.

So it's, it would be nice to have some more tools for sort of stopping that

slide before you hit the bottom of it.

Okay.

So fix all my life problems, please.

Carrie

. Well, I first of all just wanna like,

but I really liked how you were described going into, um, your, your husband's

family with this like, hat of curiosity.

Like, I, I, I could picture the clipboard and everything and I think when, when it

comes to being in a relationship, being curious and being compassionate, are.

amazing things, and I can hear that in the way that you're describing things.

So I think in terms of the question that you asked around kind of the

introverted, when you have, like, nothing lacked, your br batteries

are drained, you're struggling.

I want you, I, I always encourage people, and, and believe me, I

struggle with practicing this myself, um, is you gotta be curious and

compassionate with yourself too.

Like if you don't wanna slip too far downwards, part of that is kind of

being like, what's going on with me?

Like, you know, just pausing for a moment with all the demands coming around

you and going to find a space for me, honest to God, sometimes it's the car.

I sit in the car a lot, , like, I'll come, come home and I, if there's nobody

else with me, that is my, my quiet space where it just like the bathroom

is a safe space cuz it has a lock.

Although everyone here knows how to defeat the lock, which is frustrating, but it,

but mostly it's take space for yourself.

Be curious about what's going on for you.

Why do you not have anything left to give?

Why are you just wanting to say screw it and not.

Give anything else and be compassionate towards yourself,

be like, geez, the kids are sick.

Um, you know, I'm not feeling appreciated.

I'm feeling exhausted.

I haven't stopped Well for the last couple of nights, you know, it's, it's,

you know, it's being com It's, I two people doubt if you're an introvert.

It's also recognizing maybe you've had too many people around you

and, and that's draining, right?

Like extroverts, a lot of people think extroverts are people who are outgoing.

Extroverts are people who charge by being around other people.

Um, I have two children that are like that.

I have no idea how I created them, but, but introverts need that time on

their own and in order to recharge.

And so if you have human beings around you, even your partner, it's too much.

And so I think a big part is that if you're feeling that way, be

curious, be compassionate towards yourself too, and take that space

cuz otherwise things will slip.

Like if you just kind of try to keep giving and keep pushing, um, you're

gonna get to the point of extreme frustration, maybe even resentment.

uh, for, for having demands made of you, and then just say,

screw it and shut down entirely.

Where I think the way to prevent the slippery slope is to, to make

sure you give your sp self space.

I say ideally every day.

I know this sounds really crazy, but I give myself five minutes every day.

And I know that's not a lot of time, but it makes a huge difference.

Like I just take five minutes away from everything else to just

be still and kind of be like, okay, what's going on with you?

Um, and so I think that can, I think preventative work is, is really key, but

if you notice yourself slipping that way and feeling resentful, it's again, it,

it might be even telling your partner when you're in a good space, be like,

sometimes I slip and I need your help to call me out on that and say, whoa,

you know, you're not in a good space.

And then kind of help give me that time to, to reconnect with myself.

Did that answer that?

Yes.

It, it really did.

I think too, when you talk about five minutes, not being that much time, I

find so often for myself, it's not okay.

. You know, if I took a really long vacation and sat on the beach for a whole

week, I would not find that relaxing.

But sometimes that 10 minutes of just to heck up with the lot of you and you

know, , unless you're actually on fire, do not bother me for the next 10 minutes.

Exactly.

Carving that space out for yourself can be so helpful, even if it's not, you know,

it's, it's not about the amount of time or going and doing something, it's just

about the giving yourself the permission to take whatever it is that you're taking.

Um, yes.

Which is why I'm going on vacation.

Yeah.

And it has to be.

So

And is it that you're visiting Arlie?

Did I hear that on so, yeah.

Oh, hope that's so

wonderful.

. There will be no beaches.

Well, I mean, there could be but the water will be frozen.

Oh, the, the fine fine Beaches of Ontario in mid-February.

Delightful.

Yeah, delightful.

Cold and windy.

It's very cold.

So as a parent, it seems like, especially in those early days and months of becoming

a new parent, and I'll say it, especially for moms, you have a total life change

that takes a long time to, to figure out for yourself, and that can impact your

relationship in a lot of different ways.

Do you have any thoughts on helping people through that transition time?

Because that seems to be a really critical stage, it seems like, from when you're

going from a couple to a family, and how, how, I mean, you can still in theory,

think Yes, we're the, we're the center.

You know, I'm a person and my co my, my partner's the second circle.

But when you have a, an infant in your house for the first time, it's,

they are so demanding, and mm-hmm.

, you don't feel like a self anymore.

So, Do you have any thoughts on how people can kind of get through that

period and keep their relationship intact?

Because I feel like that's a, a critical point in a lot of a lot of relationships.

Yeah, I agree completely.

And I think that with that, it's a big part is adjusting expectations.

So when we think about that, we go through seasons in the year, like spring, fall,

summer, or we think about seasons in farming, whether it be kind of Calvin

season season or lambing season or planting season or when we think about

all these seasons, we also have seasons in our lives and our relationship.

And I think when you are moving to parenthood, a big part is just

recognizing things start to change.

The boundaries start to change, the the responsibilities change.

Um, and, and I think it's really important to just kind

of flex on those expectations.

Recognizing you're probably not going to have as much time for each other.

You're not going to, I mean, a lot of times, I mean, I, I always think

that right after having a baby, my highest priority thing, if I have

a moment, is to have a shower.

And, you know, it's like, no, I don't wanna cuddle , I wanna have a shower.

You know, like, and, and, and you're in survival mode.

And I think that's what a lot of people don't realize is that initially

you're in that survival mode, which means fight or flight, like your

cortisol is going, you're exhausted.

Um, you know, you know, if women can have, and, and men can have the

oxytocin, which, which is really good for bonding with the infant, but all

of a sudden our priority shifts, right?

And our focus might become prioritizing the baby.

And that's a season of, of a marriage, right?

When you first have a baby, you focus might be on the baby, maybe

that circle changes and the baby is kind of like the closest circle next

to you, and then it's your partner.

But it's still trying to find ways to be close and connected and,

and being able to say, okay, this is just where we are right now.

How can we still.

Support one another.

How can we still share responsibilities?

And I find in farming what's even harder about it is that

there's no paid parental leave.

Right?

And so, um, you, you don't get that same beautiful opportunity where, and this

is a traditional, more of a traditional makeup here, um, where you're, your

partner can be there with you in the trenches for the first couple of weeks.

And when you're not sleeping, and then, you know, your, your partner

can be at home letting you get a nap.

That is impossible, depending on, our babies have always been born

in, in harvest, . I don't know how that keeps happening, but, but that

means that, you know, I'm, he's there for me as much as he could be.

But for the most part, I'm on, I'm on my own.

I'm really in survival mode.

And so I think some of.

Planning ahead, making sure other supports can be in place, other people

can be there, being patient with one another, and just recognizing that that's

a special season of your relationship.

It's this incredible bonding time where you're bonding over being parents,

but it's also kind of a time where you might feel the most disconnected

because your priorities and your focus are shifting and changing.

But again, I always go back to making sure that in that space, if you wanna

be able to be a good partner, and if you wanna be a good parent to your

baby, you do still have to really find, carve out that five, 10 minutes for

yourself or longer if you can have, take that shower, um, have that nap if

there's someone willing to, to help you.

But it is, I think a big part is, is just recognizing that things are going to

change and that that change will evolve as the, the child gets older, you'll

have more time for each other again.

So it's just being flexible with those expectations.

Asking each other what, what you need, cuz that's gonna be different.

Communicating what those, those things are.

Um, and just recognizing if, if in your family it's not possible for

both of you to be in there in the trenches doing all the work together,

it's finding other people, um, in your life that can, can kind of help

with that so that you don't feel so isolated in, in that, in that space.

Right.

It's so hard, especially, you know, I can say even for myself, um, my

husband's like, oh, you know, you're a harvest widow or something like that.

And, and it can be really alone.

Uh, really lonely and isolating, especially if you have a small human, uh,

waking you up every two to three hours and, and needing you for everything.

Yeah.

And so often it can feel like, um, speaking as a mother that,

you know, my husband's life didn't change all that much.

Right.

, you know, like that he still walked out the door in the morning and assumed

that everything was okay in the house.

And for the most part, you know, we managed, I coped.

But yeah, there were lots of days where it was like, why has

everything in my life changed

And yeah, you seem to be able to just like walk around, like you

can just like walk out the door.

that just seem, you know, like Yeah.

In those moments it feels like that even just, you know, walking out the

door, having a shower without asking someone else for help to do that.

Right.

Like, you don't have to ask, ask anyone no permission to help you so

you can go to the bathroom or you don't have to take anyone with you.

Like, all of those basic, basic needs all of a sudden feel impossible.

Agreed.

Yeah.

Well, and Arlene too, I think.

Oh.

For so many of us who have married on to farms, you know, that we've married

into a business with a family that might live right across the road and,

you know, maybe we're living in our husband's childhood home and then we

have a baby, and then he gets to just keep doing what he was doing and yeah.

Mm-hmm.

now we can't even find a TV remote without, you know, help.

And it's, yeah, it, it can feel like a, a series of things where his life just

got more interesting and, and cuddler and your life just got more poop, , uh,

literally and metaphorical poop.

And that can,

it's just not

literal.

Yes.

. Yeah.

When that can build resentment, right?

When you notice those things happening.

And I think that's where a lot of, there's a lot more conversation around

the invisible labor of the primary caregiver and recognizing all these

small little things that you do day in and day out that really add up.

Um, and sometimes when the, when the other person gets to leave the house without

those significant changes, or even may come home and the house looks just as

much of a disaster as when they left, but you've worked nonstop, you know, at, at

keeping all the, all the poo together,

So it can be, yeah, it can, it can be really frustrating.

And so I think sometimes it's just being like, you know, this

is what my day looked like.

This is how hard it was.

These are all the fires I put out, and, and they matter.

Right.

Yeah.

Another thought I had before we move on to our, uh, wrap up fun questions

was, as a parent, sometimes it feels like there's extra pressure on your

relationship because you're trying to model a relationship for your

kids, which I know is important.

Mm-hmm.

, and I know I've heard lots about before, about, um, you know, fighting

fair and letting kids see you resolve your arguments and although, you know,

nice in theory things, but mm-hmm.

, how do you both have a healthy relationship and model a

healthy relationship without compromising your relationship?

I guess it's kind of going in a circle, but do you know what I'm trying to say?

Mm-hmm.

. No, and I agree, and I think that's when

messages of what the right thing to do is, um, in, in a family or in a couple.

Like I think it's about figuring out what feels safe and okay in your family.

And again, I think that's kind of comes back to, to Katie.

Uh, conversation around like recognizing we each come in with, with different

relationship experiences and family experiences, and that informs what

being respectful or fighting fair or how we can be communicated with.

Like, I'm really sensitive to yelling, so that doesn't work too well with me.

I shut down immediately, um, where there's other families that

yell at each other constantly.

Um, so it's about figuring out what works for you and then it's also

recognizing you don't need to be perfect.

Um, I think that's, that's a huge part.

Like you don't have to have the perfect relationship.

You don't have to always choose your words perfectly.

It'd be nice if you can sometimes do that, um, when you're, you're fully charged

and, and ready to, to be a healthy person.

But the key I think for me, or at least what I try to, to use that helps me

and my family is, is to be accountable for your words or your actions.

And so if you've said something off the cuff, um, that was

hurtful for me, I swear.

Like a lot.

Um, it's a coping strategy.

And so I have small people.

I, when they were little, I used to say fudge instead of the other word, but,

but now I've just recognized that these little humans can tolerate me saying

swear words and not say them themselves inappropriately, which is great.

And so it's about being, being kind of flexible.

I mean, like, you don't have to be perfect and it's being accountable

and it's making apologies.

So if you've said or done something with one of the kids in your

communication with them or even your partner to let them see you come

back and be like, I messed up there.

Like, I was really impatient.

Um, I, I took some frustration out, out on you that had nothing to do with you.

Uh, or those were really hurtful words I used, I wish I would've

said it this way instead.

And so I think the big part is be compassionate.

Don't feel like you need to be perfect in your communication all the time.

You can't be that perfect role model.

And if you mess up, I think the most healthiest thing you can model for your

kids is accountability and apologies.

those and like real apologies, not like, sorry, , which is how my kids

say sorry to each other sometimes when I encourage 'em to do it, but like,

like a real story, like I messed up and I'm sorry for, for that and this

is how I would like to make it better.

Don't be

perfect.

Got it.

I can do it.

Don't have to be perfect.

We can be perfect like Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

It's just recovering from all those imperfections that can, can really be

the healthiest things for kids to see.

Yeah.

I've started trying to apologize to my kids and it's, it's hard.

I mean, they're six and almost five and so pardon of me feels

like, you know, I'm a grownup.

I shouldn't have to apologize to you because that's how I was raised.

And yes, it turns out that they are still people even if they're short and you

still have to be nice and that's how they learn to not be jerks to other people, so.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I think you had said that in a previous episode, I was listening

to it, but like that's kinda like the goal parenting is like, , try

to make sure that they're not jerks.

Yeah.

Um, which

is a lot work.

I like to say that my goal is that maybe they'll still have to go to therapy,

but they should at least have to go to therapy for new stuff and not stuff

that's like five generations old already.

Cuz , this generational trauma is just, we could be done with that.

It's the pits.

Yeah.

So we ask all of our guests, if you were going to dominate a category at

the county fair, what would it be?

And categories can be real or made up to ensure that you win.

Okay.

When I thought about this, I honestly wanted to come up with

some really, really badass answer.

Um, but I'm terribly uncoordinated.

Uh, but I am quite, and I'm not a good cook at all, although everyone does

eat my food and complain about it.

But I am really crafty.

So, and my kids often, uh, in our area, they often enter the

competitions for school for like coloring or creating things.

So I think anything that involved paint, scissors, or glue.

I think I could dominate that.

I think I could work that, that competition at the the county fair.

Sweet.

Sometimes some kind of collage or something.

I think there should be an adult.

Exactly.

I totally, there should be an adult collage category.

I used to rock a collage, although there are a lot less

magazines than they used to be.

It does make it

harder.

Right.

Finding the print material.

You have to, you end up having to like print it off of your

computer.

. That's right.

That's a lot more steps.

Yeah.

Yep.

Do you have any other thoughts before you move into our, uh,

cussing and discussing segment?

You covered a lot of territory today.

I just thought I would, in case you had any other, anything else that came across

your mind before we move on completely or do you think we're good for now?

I would say that the main message, if I could get it out to, to everyone in

terms of the things that I feel really stand out is just recognizing that the

small things make a big difference.

Um, and make a repair, apologize when you mess up.

Like I think if you can, can do those things to, to kind of show

appreciation to your partner.

to connect on a physical way or to connect on an emotional level,

like all those small things.

It can be even just a simple thing.

Like, you know, I, you know, I, I might have saw something really cool on my

phone and I wanted to, to show my partner that, you know, if he didn't look up

from his phone, it just kind of kept doing his own thing that has an impact.

Like, you just don't feel, you don't feel connect, connected.

You don't feel valued.

But just taking a moment to look and take a look over and be like, oh

yeah, that's a really funny video.

You know, and just paying attention.

Uh, the gottman's call it turning towards, like, just turning towards

and, and paying attention and showing value for what your partner does.

Those small little things, those small acts really, really, really

add up for a healthy relationship.

. It's good to know that the memes that my

actually a, a, a good connecting tool.

I, uh, hadn't thought of that.

Totally.

It's like therapeutic.

It totally is.

, there's, yeah, between the yes, no and can you get this thing text?

There are a lot of, uh, strange, strange memes going back and forth,

so that's part, that's perfect, part of connecting as a couple.

So we'll go ahead and move into our cussing and discussing segment, and

listeners can leave their cussing and discussing entries with us, and you can

check the show notes for our speak pipe or our email to leave those for us.

Katie, what are you cussing and discussing this week?

TV

remotes.

They're bullshit.

, did you lose one?

No, we have like three of them be, I mean, we have three of them

because they keep getting lost , but the battery doors fall off.

The buttons don't work.

Right.

All of them have five times as many buttons as they can possibly actually

need, because you know, they have their universal remotes because God

knows what happened to the remote that came with the tv, but now we've got

buttons for every possible thing under the sun, and we only just have the tv.

We don't have surround sound or a Blueray player or whatever

else we have buttons for.

And they're always sticky because we have little kids, and mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

I just, two thumbs down.

You know, we have people living in outer space.

We should be able to have TV remotes that are not gross.

That's that affirmative.

And that aren't so complicated too.

Right.

But the kids never seem overwhelmed by it.

They always know what buttons to press.

Yeah.

But you know, you're sitting there in the dark and you can't tell what button

you're hitting because you have to hit the button for the remote to light

up so you can see what button it is.

And then you get old, you know, you got your bifocals and you're

moving the remote back and forth so you can see what it says.

And.

and it's sticky.

Mm-hmm.

, or it's down in the couch and you have to stick your hand down in there and

god knows what else you're gonna touch.

I just

, I added tiles like those little, like

was tired of losing them and not being able to figure out where they were.

So that's my hot tip for this week is stick a tile on your, uh, remote for

when it gets stuck in the couch cushions.

And then you don't have to check all them, because I could walk into

the room and ask the people who use the remote previously where it is

and none of them will have any idea.

Well, them I hit the button and exactly, exactly where they were sitting.

The worst two is we're just now getting out of the phase where we had to hide

the remote to stop them from changing the channel on each other when they'd fight

. And so we'd hide the remote and we'd never be able to find a damn thing again.

He'd be like, well it's, you know, on top of the China cabinet, like.

I don't know where it is cuz you gotta put it somewhere they can't see it.

That was the hidden place yell today, you know?

Yeah.

. Yeah.

All right Carrie, what do you have to discuss and

discuss?

Well, I do have a quick question, Arlene.

How, how do you get the tile thing to stick to the, the remote control?

Cause we're always losing it.

I think it's like the main source of conflict in our house.

There are some, the heck

is like our little round stickers.

They actually have like two-sided tape on them and those are the kind

I bought now when the sticky stuff wears off, then I just like use packing

tape and stuck it back on again.

But yeah, there are like little round like button style tiles

that have like two-sided tape.

Oh.

And you can stick them to

whatever you want.

Thank you so much that I'm actually going to be implementing cuz we can

never find the ram remote control effort.

Yeah.

And it usually is in the couch cushions, mixed in with goldfish crackers, but

yes.

Yeah, crumbs.

That's

awesome.

They should look into using that as a, as a building material.

That, like cement that forms between the couch arms or whatever.

Ugh.

Look

so

gross.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was all the pet fur.

So Carrie, what were you actually gonna, um, now see, I

just interrupted you again.

Well, yeah, I, no, no, it totally came up to me today.

I first, I was gonna talk about, um, apologies cuz we had to come

up on our, on the weekend where two kids were, were fighting and

they were just like, ugh, sorry.

And like, just didn't give that.

But then I was like really agitated when I went.

I got coffee this morning, this little treat for me.

Um, and as I was in the, the drive-through and anyone in my area might actually know

about the sign that I'm talking about.

But you know how like in the drive-through of, um, Tim Hortons

often has like a, like a whole bunch of science advertising businesses.

Like it's a prime location obviously, when you're sitting in the

drive-through and one of those things there, what really bothers me, it's,

it's two real estate professionals and it says buy a bigger house.

It's cheaper than divorce.

That's the message.

Mm-hmm.

. And it really, really bothers me, not just cuz it's superficial, um, but it

really bothers me because I think it's playing on people's vulnerabilities,

um, and their insecurities.

And, and it's also giving the opposite of the message that we've been talking

about today, where you have to do these really big things in order

to keep your relationship healthy.

It.

, you know, oh, your partner's not heavy, then you need to buy them a bigger house.

Or you should, you know, buy them a new piece of jewelry.

Or in my case, buy my husband a new Massey tractor.

Like, you know, it's right.

Yes.

Throw money at it.

That'll fix it.

Throw money at it.

That'll fix it.

Yeah, that'll solve it.

I just, it bothers me, like, I'm like, oh, it's playing on vulnerabilities.

It's also the wrong message.

Like, it's not true at all.

Sometimes buying that bigger house would be the thing that causes a

relationship to break down further because of the financial strain.

Mm-hmm.

. So that's, that was my agitating piece today.

Is that, that unhealthy message?

Yeah.

I

imagine that as a couple's therapist, that would, uh, definitely be

a, not the message you wanna

see.

You need to just put your ad out there that says, you know,

couple's therapy cheaper than divorce or a bigger house like

. Yeah, yeah.

Put yours

right beside it.

Put a sticker on it.

I honestly thought about that.

I was like, could I?

You should.

Yeah, you'll, you'll see the National Farmer Mental Health Alliance now

that they're probably supporting the

on your message.

Arlene, what do you have to, people would notice it.

Yeah.

What do you have to discuss and discuss?

We had a conversation earlier this week.

We've had a pretty busy week with interviews, and we had a conversation

earlier this week where we talked about not having or trying to reduce

the amount of guilt that we have.

And then not very long after I got a call from the principal for

one of the kids, they did a thing.

It doesn't really matter what it is, but my immediate response

in my head was feeling guilty myself for what my kid had done.

And I don't know how I get, I mean, I'm sure that probably lots of people feel

the same way, so that's why I'm saying it, but it's just like such a weird

brain thing to be like, I didn't do that.

You know, like, yes, the person that lives in my house and who

happens to be my child did that thing, but I did not do that thing.

So why do I feel so bad about it?

I mean, yes, he's, you know, there were gonna be consequences and we were gonna

discuss it and all that kind of stuff.

But yeah, it, you're, my brain jumped immediately to, oh, I feel so bad.

What am I going to do, uh, to make this better?

And it was like, that's not my job, but mm-hmm.

Yeah, it was, it was just interesting that we'd also had just had that conversation.

So yeah, that's where my head went, but at least I had the, I also had

it in my head to be like, stop , you know, this is, this is not your thing.

Mm-hmm.

It's not, and yet it's sometimes we feel like it is, like we can feel really

judged for the actions of our children or any one of our family members, as

if we shaped them into that human.

And although you might have an influence on it mm-hmm.

, you can't control it.

So, yeah.

Absolutely.

. Yeah.

So that was my thing this week.

So I'm still gonna say, just remember, just be like, I'm a good mom.

, banish the guilt . That's right.

Get rid of

that Guilt and extended family, uh, bonuses.

One of his consequences was that he had to go and shovel grandma's front steps.

So it all worked out.

She got chores done.

Ah, and he got, uh, some consequences for some things that went on.

So we wanna thank you so much, Carrie, for joining us today.

If people want to connect with you, where should they find you online?

What's the, what's the link?

Um, in terms of my private practice, they, if they, if someone wanted

to work with me, they could find me@flourishwithcohesion.com or

they can follow me on my Instagram account, which I just love.

It's such a fun, creative place for me.

Um, at Compassionate underscore c.

Or you can find me through the National Pharma of Mental Health

Alliance, which is nfm h a.ca.

Or you can follow us online at UM, N F M H A Alliance , which is unfortunate that

we couldn't find something simpler there.

So you can find us either probably on our website or or online.

Definitely.

And we will include all that in the show notes too.

Thank you.

It was great to talk to you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Thanks for talking to us.

A happy Valentine's Day to all of our

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