ENCORE Alexandra Lechner 19 Jan 2023

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[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode 10 of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh. Pup. As you may, well be expecting part two of my chat with the brilliant Andrea Watts, but I've been floored by a fairly brutal cold, so you can expect part two next week.

[00:00:16] Ross: But in the meantime, here's an encore, a People Soup favorite from the archives. It's my chat about creating psychological safety in virtual teams with Alexandra Lechner. Hope you enjoy it folks.

[00:00:28] Alexandra: I've always been really interested in, teamwork and how we can increase performance of teams. I've worked, in a lot of teams myself in the past, and it was always wondering a bit, what can we do to improve this and to make this better? and then I came across this, study that Google did in 2015.

[00:00:45] Alexandra: where they found psychological safety as kind of the secret ingredient to their, teams. , and then I started wondering, but why has no one researched this in virtual teams?

[00:00:55] pay supers. Thanks for tuning in this week. It's a chat with Alexandra latch now where we talk about her groundbreaking research on the challenges of building psychological safety and virtual teams.

[00:01:05] people supers and award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to nourish your mind to flourish at work. in my chat with Alexandra, she also presents the barriers and enablers to psychological safety.

[00:01:40] And it's fascinating to hear her recommendations too.

[00:01:43] Let's take a quick, scoot over to the news desk reviews are in for part two of my chat with Dr. Nick Hooper, where he reflected on his book, the unbreakable student. Melanie Libera said, I bought this book for my friend's daughter who is off to university soon after listening to the first half of this chat, [00:02:00] she already loves it.

[00:02:01] Can't wait to get stuck into the second half I love it when new and helpful resources come my way. And in our later tweet, Melanie went on to say, thank you for a marvelous book and a fantastic interview. So Melanie, thank you so much for listening. We really appreciate it. Glad you enjoyed Nick's book and yeah, if you haven't heard it folks.

[00:02:21] Why not have a listen? I'd suggest it's a treat for you. Yes,

[00:02:24] it was me and Annie gas going are proud to have launched our flexibility at work training program. It's a modular approach designed to share insights and a toolkit for how we bring contextual behavioral science to organizations to cultivate behavioral flexibility, wellbeing, and effectiveness. There are discounts for students and recent graduates as well as early bird offers. So follow the links in the show notes, or go to book when.com/flexibility at work that's dot com slash flexibility at work

[00:02:56] for now, Get a brew on and have a listen to my chat with Alexandra latch now

[00:03:05] Interview

[00:03:05] Ross: Alexandra welcome to people soup to light at, to have you here.

[00:03:10] Alexandra: Thank you very much for us looking forward very much to speaking to you.

[00:03:13] Ross: Brilliant. Now, would you.

[00:03:15] Ross: mind just introducing yourself to our listeners, please?

[00:03:19] Alexandra: Yes, of course. So, I'm Alexandra, I'm 25 years old and currently based in Berlin, last year or actually two years ago. Now I did my MSC in organizational psychology at city. Which is how I know you as well. and currently I am both a research fellow still with city university, and I'm now the people and culture lead for a small Berlin based startup.

[00:03:42] Alexandra: we have 30 people and we're roughly in the area. Of, life insurances and, it's, it's a digital life companion to, protect people and their families. and yeah, that's what I'm doing at the moment.

[00:03:57] Ross: wonderful. I can't believe it was two years ago [00:04:00] that you had, you did the coast. How time flies.

[00:04:03] Alexandra: That's crazy.

[00:04:05] Ross: So the reason I've invited you back on, because you've been on once already, Because you went to the ATBs conference last year and checked out a few of the, um, speakers and sessions.

[00:04:17] Ross: But today we're focusing on your master's research, which has now been published piece supers. Let me just tell you It's been published in organizational dynamics. Is that right?

[00:04:29] Alexandra: Yeah, that's correct.

[00:04:31] Ross: And the title of the article is how to create psychological safety in virtual teams, Alexandra Leccino and UTA.

[00:04:39] Ross: Tobias.

[00:04:40] Alexandra: yes. Very exciting to me. So

[00:04:43] Ross: Yeah. We'll meet him. I've got it here. Printed out. I'm so chuffed for you.

[00:04:48] Ross: I'm so delighted that you've had this published because I think it's so important I think psychological safety is becoming more known the kind of concept of it.

[00:04:57] Ross: And I think people are really interested in how you can create it or cultivate it, particularly in virtual teams.

[00:05:06] Alexandra: Yeah, that's true. I was quite surprised that there wasn't as much, or actually there was no research out there about psychological safety in virtual teams, which was very surprising to me. but yeah, now there is.

[00:05:17] Ross: Yeah.

[00:05:18] Ross: indeed. So how did you decide on this topic for your research?

[00:05:22] Alexandra: yeah, that was quite interesting actually, because it was before the COVID pandemic hit still. and then, well, luckily enough for me, uh, the epidemic did hit and actually people suddenly all over the world were interested in this topic and started working in virtual teams. but how I got to this topic.

[00:05:40] Alexandra: Was that I I've always been really interested in, teamwork and how we can increase performance of teams. I've worked, in a lot of teams myself in the past, and it was always wondering a bit, what can we do to improve this and to make this better? and then I came across this, study that Google did in 2015.

[00:05:58] Alexandra: where they found [00:06:00] psychological safety as kind of the secret ingredient to their, teams. , and then I started wondering, but why has no one researched this in virtual teams?

[00:06:08] Alexandra: and I mean, there certainly is a lot of differences that we see and trust and communication and relationships in virtual teams. So I thought to myself, the way that we create psychological safety must also be different in a virtual team. and yeah, that's how I became interested in that. Yeah.

[00:06:23] Ross: So you, you were ahead of the game, Alexandra when new, when you came up with this topic, but how useful. It to be able to review and reflect on your research.

[00:06:35] Ross: so tell me how you did it. What type of methods did you use for your research?

[00:06:40] Alexandra: Yes. So what we did was, a qualitative study. So, we approached 16, people that were either members or leaders of virtual. and I conducted interviews with them, actually, all of this was taking place virtually as well, during the pandemic. then my, method was, uh, semi-structured interviews and then, a thematic analysis.

[00:07:02] Alexandra: So I analyzed what the participants were telling me in the interviews and then could draw, my findings based on basis. Yeah.

[00:07:11] Ross: Hmm. I'm always interested? because I love qualitative research and it drove me slightly crackers as well to having the transcriptions, reading through them, becoming immersed in the data, having post-it notes all over a wall and mouth flat. And I became, so engrossed in it. It was almost an obsession. How did you find it?

[00:07:33] Alexandra: Yeah, I can very much relate to that. I found it at times very exciting at other times. Very frustrating. Just the amount of information that you have in an interview transcript, because when you first hear the interview or participate yourself, you hear completely different things, from when you then transcribe it and.

[00:07:54] Alexandra: Transcript for like the fifth or sixth time. so that's what I found really fascinating actually that, the amount of [00:08:00] information just increases and increases. And I feel like at some point you just have to draw a line for yourself and you have to be like, okay, that's enough. Now I have immersed myself enough into the data now.

[00:08:12] Alexandra: And then like, take a step back and ask yourself now, what can I draw from.

[00:08:17] Ross: I love the way you described that because isn't it amazing. I absolutely agree. The second time, the third time you think. Oh, oh, I think that key things people will be interested in is, is what you discovered. And, and then the paper. I'm just going to the right page.

[00:08:32] Ross: There's a lovely table table one P supers. If you want to look up this paper yourself, which, has practical recommendations for cultivating psychological safety virtually, is that the summary of your thematic analysis, which is.

[00:08:47] Alexandra: I think that summarizes it pretty well. Yes. but maybe if I had to give like a one line summary of the key finding of, the paper, I think it wouldn't even be that specific. I think it would be that, we can all learn how to make our teams psychologically safe. Like there is no really secret ingredient to it. it's not magic or whatever. It's very practical skills that we can all learn and we can all apply to our day to day teamwork. and I think that's really good news as many of us are now working in virtual teams. so for me, that would probably be the, the main takeaway.

[00:09:25] Ross: Thank you. I think you're quite modest in the way you, describe this because when you're in the midst of a pandemic, everyone's getting used to working virtually. We're not always thinking straight about, oh, how could we make this more effective? So I think using your findings as a guide could be tremendously useful to people out there as a starting point to consider.

[00:09:46] Ross: How would this apply in my context with my team

[00:09:49] Alexandra: Yeah, that's true.

[00:09:51] Ross: and particularly as. Here in the UK, some organizations are talking about going back to what they're describing as hybrid [00:10:00] working, where people would be in the office for part of the time. not in the office for another part of the time and how's that going to work? So I think this could have multiple uses for folks out there.

[00:10:10] Alexandra: Yeah, that's true. Although I think that the hybrid model will pose completely new challenges and probably even I didn't consider in that paper. Um, so yeah. Lots of new challenges ahead.

[00:10:21] Ross: maybe that's your next piece of research.

[00:10:24] Alexandra: Yeah, true. That could be.

[00:10:26] SPOONS

[00:10:26] Ross: so Alexandra in your research, you. Came across some barriers and some enablers to cultivating psychological safety in virtual teams. I wonder if you could just give us some insight into those players.

[00:10:44] Alexandra: Yes, happy to jump right in. So, I would say the main point things were, first of all, these two to bury us to, psychological safety. So what we found is that just generally virtual teamwork team seems to take more time and effort. So there are many day-to-day processes. Uh, it could be a communication, but it could also be building trust and relationship.

[00:11:08] Alexandra: that just take more time and effort in a virtual team compared to if it's face-to-face team. and then the second barrier that we found is that team members tend to communicate in bubbles. So maybe that's a concept that you have experienced both in virtual and in, face-to-face teams before. But, very often we come into a new team and we quickly bond with one or two people.

[00:11:29] Alexandra: but maybe the entire team consists of, I don't know, let's say 10 people. And then we just started communicating very intensively with these one or two people. let's say we have a question. We ask this question to these one or two people first, rather than approaching the person that might be most knowledgeable in that area.

[00:11:46] Alexandra: That can result in people communicating in bubbles. and that's a bit problematic in, in a virtual team. maybe what's interesting about that as well, is that, it's definitely a problem in face-to-face teams as well. But we found [00:12:00] it to be more critical in a virtual team because you don't have these, communications, for example, at the coffee machine, where you accidentally stumbled across a different colleague and those conversations kind of balance out these effects of communicating and bubbles.

[00:12:16] Ross: So listen, I think to what you're describing, it seems as though that things that happen in real life face-to-face happen in the virtual world as well. And it's more difficult to notice and manage it in the virtual world I guess, because we're unfamiliar with it happening or we can't see it happening because as in the subtitle to your paper, "can technology replace the coffee talk? "We're missing out on those casual instances where we bump into each other.

[00:12:45] Alexandra: Yeah, exactly. And for me, that's actually a really critical point because what I feel like is one of the main messages, a lot of these things in a virtual team, you have to think of much more deliberately and you have to deliberately decide, for example, what team members should I have another conversation with?

[00:13:05] Alexandra: What team members should I check in with more often, ? Or even what team members need to build more, trust and relationships among each other. And these things happen much more implicitly. and without our specific control or deliberate effort in a face-to-face team, Whereas in a virtual team, we have to actually take action and take responsibility for building this trust and these relationships among each other.

[00:13:31] Ross: There's more intention behind it and, and taking action, devoting your energy to actually paying attention. And perhaps someone in, in the team is feeling, oh, well, I'm not in anyone's bubble. I'm all on my own. I'm I'm excluded. And that's, that's not why we want to be an in any team, whether it's virtual or face to face.

[00:13:52] Alexandra: Exactly.

[00:13:53] Ross: so tell me about the enablers, please.

[00:13:56] Alexandra: Yeah. So, we then continued to, look at the enablers [00:14:00] of psychological safety and, the first one actually relates to these barriers. So the first enabler that we identified was accepting virtual team challenge. So you, you probably are familiar with this concept of acceptance. and what we realized is that you really have to, Shift your perspective from an avoidant mindset from like, oh, this is a problem. Like, I don't know how to handle this, to a more constructive and a more curious mindset where you see, Problems as challenges instead, and you see the opportunities that these problems present to the virtual team. So that would be the first enabler.

[00:14:38] Alexandra: And the second enabler is, connecting as human beings. So, what we found here is that, we really need to see that there is a human being behind the screen. We're not just communicating with a computer We're communicating with a human being that is sitting on the other side of the screen.

[00:14:55] Alexandra: which is very similar to a face-to-face team, we have to build trust and a relationship with that human being. so the goal would be making sense of each other, understand. Why does the other person behave the way they do? and some ways of doing that could be for instance, to frequently check in with colleagues, by doing a one-on-one, not just communicating with the entire group at once in, in big group calls.

[00:15:20] Alexandra: it could also be creating bonding moments. So, if there is a chance, to do face-to-face meetings in a post COVID world, face-to-face meetings can be a great. To create these bonding moments and create new experiences, where we see how do our team members behave in a different environment other than our day to day work, for example, And then yeah, we have the third enabler, which is discussing the rules of the game.

[00:15:49] Alexandra: And that's actually, I think that's the one that's probably most untypical and the probably least virtual teams do. because that's what we mentioned before. Right. In a [00:16:00] virtual team, you have to talk about these things much more explicitly. So you have certain rules of engagement, for example, or like a code of conduct that normally we probably don't talk about.

[00:16:11] Alexandra: So if you're in an office and you, for example, you see, when do my colleagues take a lunch break or until what time do they work? How long do they take to respond to emails? You see all these things implicitly, and you don't have to speak about these things, but in a virtual team, it suddenly becomes very important that you actually talk about how do we want to work together?

[00:16:32] Alexandra: What are our rules and what are maybe the implicit rules as well? and yeah, just create a bit like a code of conduct for, for the entire virtual team.

[00:16:43] Ross: I really love that because you're right. It's, it's kind of seen as intuitive, but without you guiding us through this. And presenting it to us in this structured way, you can lose sight of this stuff. And also the assumptions we make. If we're sat around a table in a room, We might all have assumptions about what this meeting is going to be about and what we're looking to do.

[00:17:03] Ross: And that's kind of magnified and complexified, if that's a word when we're on a virtual world, there's more distractions, but there's also assumptions that we don't check in with each other and go, can I just check what we're doing here in this meeting?

[00:17:17] Alexandra: Yeah, exactly. And maybe to add to that, it also, there is a bigger barrier, for example, that the exact exempt that you just just made. if I just want to quickly make sure I understood something correctly, then it takes much more effort and much more courage to actually reach out to my colleague and maybe pick up the phone and ask them, Hey, like, can I just check in with you if that's correct.

[00:17:40] Alexandra: If I understood this the right way. Versus if you were sitting next to each other anyways, and you can just look over and ask them, um, and you can see their reaction and everything. so yeah, these underlying assumptions can be problematic in a virtual team, right? Yeah.

[00:17:55] Ross: and it, you know what you're making me think. as someone who worked traditionally in our [00:18:00] face-to-face environment and an office in different offices, in different organizations, I think, we assume that the same techniques and skills were just magically transfer over to the virtual world and Nothing could be further from the truth. we have to reimagine everything.

[00:18:17] Alexandra: Yeah, that's a very good point, actually, because for example, if you think about events as well, like the events that took place before COVID were amazing and then suddenly everyone thought, oh, let's just do the exact same event, virtual. But that of course doesn't work, but then what you can do is you can sit down and ask yourself, Hey, how could I kind of adjust this event to the virtual world?

[00:18:39] Alexandra: And then you can do amazing online events, but there has to be this point where you sit down and ask yourself, how can I slightly change or modify this event in a way that it works virtually as well. And that's exactly the same thing that we have to do with teamwork. We have to sit down and ask ourselves how can, what we do.

[00:18:58] Alexandra: In the face-to-face and the real world before. How can that work virtually now?

[00:19:02] Ross: Brilliant. we've had a look at the barriers and the enablers let's dive into those practical recommendations.

[00:19:09] Alexandra: Yes. So, um, there is a little table in the paper actually. And maybe if we, jumped right in there, So in terms of accepting virtual team challenges, which was the first enabler, I would recommend to either practice shifting your perspective. So kind of putting yourself in the shoes of one of your team members, or maybe additionally to try to reframe problems as opportunities.

[00:19:33] Alexandra: So what we've identified as problems before, maybe you could also try and see that as an opportunity for growth and improvement and future performance of the virtual.

[00:19:43] Ross: um, so if someone's saying, oh gosh, we can't do this on zoom. Or any other platform that's available, let's try and imagine how that could be different on a video platform. And that shifting perspective, one is interesting because say, we've got [00:20:00] you and Mayo in the same team, and we noticed that someone's not really speaking up much in meetings.

[00:20:06] Ross: It could be worth us, intentionally checking in with them to see what's up for them and trying to imagine what it's like from their perspective.

[00:20:14] Alexandra: Yeah, that's a good point. And I feel like oftentimes there could be a good reason for them. Like they could feel intimidated or they, could have language difficulties or any of these problems that we might not know about and that we can find out if we do a one-on-one check-in with them.

[00:20:31] Alexandra: And actually the one-on-one check-in would be my next practical recommendation as well. So if we continue with the next enabler connecting as human beings, the very first tip I would have is do regular check-ins with colleagues. even though you might regularly see them in team calls, I feel like there's always a bit of a different.

[00:20:49] Alexandra: If you do a one-on-one check-in with someone, conversations can get much more personal and they might be more willing to open up to you. I found even now, in, my work at, at a failure as a people in culture lead, I found these one-on-one check-ins really, really useful. and additionally, what we did as well was, establishing coffee chats.

[00:21:08] Alexandra: So just introduce the concept of a coffee chat and just make sure that everyone in your company knows that it's okay to also call someone and just have a coffee chat. It's not like they're stealing time from, you know, from their working hours. it's completely okay to just, reach out to someone and ask, Hey, can we have a quick coffee chat?

[00:21:28] Alexandra: and that definitely it is part of their working day as well. Actually one more tip, maybe that, because that's something that we're doing at our company as well. we created kind of a toolkit to help stimulate deeper conversations. So what we found is that if we just.

[00:21:44] Alexandra: Send our teams into breakout rooms. Normally the conversations, are not that interesting, especially during COVID people don't really, have much to talk about if they just talk about their weekends, for example, or their holiday plans, just because there's not [00:22:00] much going on. and then we created a little toolkit with just some deep conversation, starter questions, which it can feel a bit like speed dating.

[00:22:09] Alexandra: but it really stimuli. Deeper conversations and it really leads to people getting to know more about each other and building more high-quality relationships.

[00:22:17] Ross: Beautiful. I love that idea of giving someone a framework. So you're not just awkwardly discussing the weather all the time or

[00:22:23] Alexandra: Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:25] Ross: Anything else in that category, connecting as human beings that you'd highlight for us.

[00:22:30] Alexandra: Yeah. Maybe one more thing that we actually now also did is, creating user manuals on how to work together. So what we did is we're using notion as kind of our information hub for company where everyone, Can write down information and share information with a team. And what we did is create a special section within notion, where everyone can create a user manual.

[00:22:53] Alexandra: So people are free and welcome to choose their own questions that they want to answer about themselves. It could be something like what drives me crazy. It could be something like what's the best way to communicate with me. And you just have a. Individual space that is dedicated for you to explain yourself to everyone else on the team and explain your communication preferences and your work preferences.

[00:23:17] Alexandra: And, we really found that it helps, especially if, if new people, are in the onboarding process, it really helps for them to understand who am I now working with? What are their preferences? How can I best contact them and communicate with.

[00:23:31] Ross: I love this idea. It's like a, a guide to working with.

[00:23:34] Ross: Ross

[00:23:35] Alexandra: Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:37] Ross: as you say, like preferences and what, what annoys me? I think it goes a long way to thinking about the diversity and inclusion as well.

[00:23:45] Alexandra: Yeah. That's true. That's true.

[00:23:46] Ross: And it's kind of fun as well, giving people the opportunity to create those user manuals. for a fellow human at work. I love the idea.

[00:23:55] Alexandra: Yeah, I think it can really also stimulate interesting conversations. for example, [00:24:00] let's say you have a coffee chat with a colleague and you read their user menu before you have the coffee chat with them. and then you can start the conversation with something that you read in their user menu.

[00:24:10] Alexandra: Maybe they listed a book that they read and you read the same book or something like that. it gives you a bit more depth about the person on the other side of the screen.

[00:24:19] Ross: it gives more points of contact. Doesn't it. And more areas where we think, oh, this person is a bit like me because they've, they've read slow to house five or whatever the book might pay.

[00:24:30] Alexandra: exactly.

[00:24:32] Ross: Okay. How about the, the third now I think we call this, we call this here at here. I am taking credit for your research. How about the third day discussing the rules of the game? Tell me about that. What are the recommendations?

[00:24:49] Alexandra: Yeah. So some practical recommendations for discussing the rules of the game. I would suggest, first of all, what's really important is that people know how to use the technology. So, one example that one of our participants gave in the interviews was that, team members, that were located on a different continent, they had.

[00:25:10] Alexandra: Zoom before. And they didn't know about the, the function that you can blur your background, for example. and they didn't feel comfortable sharing, their private rooms with other members of the team. So that resulted in them not using the video function at all. and then what they did was a very simple.

[00:25:26] Alexandra: Session where they, guided these team members through all the functions of zoom, explained to them that they could simply, blur their background. and from that point onwards, they felt comfortable to use their video functions. So that was really useful. And then another thing I would recommend is maybe to specifically allocate time to a meeting where you discuss the ground rules.

[00:25:48] Alexandra: So that could be, for example, the rules of engagement. It could be boundaries, it could be something like, where do we want to keep our decisions? for example, if you work with slack, what does our slack status [00:26:00] mean? So can you, put in a specific status when you're on your lunch break or when you're about to go on holiday or things like that?

[00:26:08] Alexandra: it just really eases communication. if you discussed at some point how you want to communicate and how you want to work. Yeah,

[00:26:16] Ross: I love this. It's just laying out stairs for, the listeners think of it in terms of these enablers, and this would be such a useful framework for you to think about it. What might be the points that could really foster and cultivate that psychological safety in your team?

[00:26:33] Alexandra: Yeah, I hope so. I hope it's useful for some

[00:26:36] Ross: so was UTA Tobias. Mortlock was UTA your supervisor for this research.

[00:26:43] Alexandra: Yeah. So she was initially my supervisor or for the dissertation. And then she was actually the one that from the very beginning and motivated me to, keep, writing on this topic and to publish it. So I'm very grateful, um, to her and for her support and everything, it was really, really helpful to have her on board as well.

[00:27:03] Alexandra: she, yeah, she was a great support and the entire process from really. First moment of defining the topic until, sending in the final draft to, the jury.

[00:27:13] Ross: right. I'm an enormous fan of ureter. She's one of my colleagues at city university of London, and I wrote to her. Oh a few months ago now, and he's going to be on the podcast. She's got some big deadlines coming up. So I think we're thinking autumn time, but I can't wait to have her on because for me, you to seems to have this inexhaustible supply of energy and motivation and enthusiasm, and sometimes I can barely keep up.

[00:27:42] Alexandra: Yeah, it's very true. It's very helpful to do like a little brainstorming session with her. And she always keeps coming with new ideas. So that's really useful.

[00:27:52] Ross: Fabulous. Now Xandra now that you're working in our real life virtual team, is there anything you've discovered personally, [00:28:00] as you reflect on your own research

[00:28:02] Alexandra: yeah, definitely. so now that I've been working in a virtual team myself for almost six months, I definitely discovered that lots of these points are much harder to translate into practice than I was hoping. I think we're already trying a lot. And, uh, I think, things are definitely going, going okay in our virtual team as well.

[00:28:22] Alexandra: But one challenge for instance, that I discovered is, the team size is often not as clearly defined. So when I was writing the research, I think I kind of assumed. That there was almost like a boundary to the virtual team and that it was just a unit in itself. because there's also research that suggests that the optimal team size is 12 people for, for instance.

[00:28:44] Alexandra: but now what I'm realizing in our company, at least, uh, we are about 30 or 35 people. and people don't really have. Static teams that they constantly work in, but we work very project-based. Um, and it can happen that you work with a set of 10 different people in one month. And then in the next month you work with 10 completely different people.

[00:29:07] Alexandra: yeah, I feel like definitely, uh, establishing these long-term relationships and, having these long-term boundaries to the team. That's, that's definitely a big challenge.

[00:29:19] Ross: Hm. So the practicalities can be more, perhaps a little bit more complex than you imagined, but look at the foundation you've set for us to help us consider this. And that's where the scenario you've just described. That's where the user manuals could really come into there.

[00:29:36] Alexandra: Yeah, that's true. And that's where it's really helpful too. If you, if then all 30 people have their own user. Then it becomes easier and easier to start working with new people every month. Um,

[00:29:46] Ross: Hm. Alexandra. Thank you for giving us such a great insight into your groundbreaking research. I'm really grateful. You've come on the podcast. It's great to see you again, and I can't wait to see what you do [00:30:00] next.

[00:30:00] Alexandra: thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure as last time and, uh, yeah. Happy to speak to you again.

[00:30:06] Ross: Brilliant. I can't wait. Thank you so much. And see you.

[00:30:10] Alexandra: See you soon. Rose.

[00:30:11] Pay supers, that's it in the back. Thanks to Alexandra for bringing to life, her original research, which I think we could all find useful.

[00:30:23] If you like this episode of the podcast, could I invite you to share it with one other person I'm really keen to spread the behavioral science and skills with more people, of course, a subscription follow rating or a view, whatever platform you're on are also very much appreciated.

[00:30:38] The show notes@rossmacintosh.co.uk. And this includes links to a few different platforms. I love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people. Souped up pod@gmail.com. We're at people's soup pot on Instagram, where at people dot soup and on Facebook, we are at peoples soup pod.

[00:30:58] Thanks to Andy Glen for his spoon magic and Alex Ankerberg for his vote.

[00:31:02] and most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourself, peacekeepers and bye for now.

[00:31:08] Ross: did you tell you to, you were going to do this

[00:31:12] Alexandra: no, she doesn't know. I will tell her now I will ask her for the link as well and tell her.