TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Amy Izycky

Welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast, the show that helps you to reach more people, help more people and build the life you want to live by doing more than therapy.

Today, I'm with Dr. Amy Izycky. Amy is a clinical psychologist and psychodynamic psychotherapist, who has a special interest in high performance athletes. Having just been blown away by the performances at the Olympics, but also pretty concerned by the number of athletes who are now visibly struggling, perhaps after having invisibly struggled for years, I'm really thrilled to have Amy here today. So welcome to the podcast, Amy.

Thank you.

So could you start by just explaining how you got into this work with athletes?

Sure. It was quite organic to be honest, it wasn't something that I thought, this is what I've always wanted to do. I have a background where I grew up in a family where sport was very much a focus. We were brought up as swimmers, me and my brother, and then I went off to university, and I became a rower. And within that time, I was invited to take that a bit further to train for, with the university and to compete for the university in a very privileged position under a coach who was the GB development coach at the time. I certainly wasn't good enough for GB, I was probably a few seconds too slow and a couple of kilos too heavy, and that's part of the story as well, I was invited to become a lightweight rower. And that's when I started to notice that there was a specific culture within lightweight rowing that was a little bit concerning. This was happening at the time that I was studying for my first degree in psychology. And of course, I was being exposed to behaviours that if they were in our worlds outside of sport, that we might be concerned about an eating disorder diagnosis. But because we were in a sporting environment, it was accepted, or even encouraged really behind the scenes to ensure that you could make weight for competition. So needless to say, I didn't last very long there. I think I competed at Henley one year and then my appendix went, and I made a decision to right okay, let's, let's just go back to recreational rowing and then carry on with my psychology training. But once I qualified as a doctor, so doctorate in clinical psychology, I contacted the university, my old coach, and various other coaches at the university, and I said, look, I've just qualified, just let me know if you need any support or if you've got any athletes with mental health concerns. And the response was incredibly surprising, really, in that they said, goodness, you couldn't have come to us at a better time. We've got athletes with eating disorders, self harm difficulties, and we'd really like you to see them.

Wow. So can I just pick up on there? You say it was really surprising. Why was it surprising to you that they wanted that support?

Because I think historically my exposure to it was maybe, maybe I misunderstood it, but I felt that it was expected of individuals that these qualities to push through pain or to engage in restrictive eating was required, really. So for someone to actually say yes, we do want you to help was surprising. I think what was, when I say surprising as well, what was even more surprising though, was that the level with which these girls were struggling in that actually one of them couldn't even engage with me because they were so physically malnourished that cognitively they weren't able to engage in a therapy. So, so that was surprising to me as well that it has, had got this severe before somebody had picked that up, because we then had to refer very quickly for physical intervention, rather than psychology.

So that's really interesting. So on the one hand, that awareness was there, and when you offered help they were keen for it. But actually, it takes some time, doesn't it for somebody to get into that kind of condition where you can't even work at a psychological level anymore. So, either this has gone under the radar, or it had been seen as acceptable for a long period of time. Really interesting, and it sounds like maybe a bit of a dialectic going on as well, where on the one hand, these behaviours are seen as a good thing, and the other hand, they're also concerning to people. I'm sure coaches must feel quite torn.

Yes, you're absolutely right. And I think this is, this is why I feel that all of my practice isn't with athletes, because I feel that there remains this constant internal conflict about these personality traits within high performance athletes, because I think there is a level of awareness that yes, I'm masochistic, yes, I push myself through the pain barrier, yes, I'm obsessive, but ultimately, if I go and see someone about that, and I move towards a healthier position, does that mean that my performance is going to suffer? So there's a, there's a real internal conflict for these individuals, that these are personality traits that have served them incredibly well within the sporting arena, and ultimately they may be being used defensively to manage various other things that they are struggling with, so to actually meet with someone to explore that can be incredibly frightening.

I bet. And another thing I should pick up on really is how brave you were to make that phone call after qualifying. So what, was there something in particular that pushed you to go back to that? Or had it just never really left your mind?

Yeah, I mean, I think it probably never left my mind and I think it's probably what has resulted in me writing the book as well. There's, it's something that just didn't feel comfortable. Even at such a young age, I mean, goodness, I was what 18,19 back then, but what I was seeing, I just, I knew that something wasn't quite right. And I think that stayed with me. And writing the book has, has always been about increasing awareness that people need to know that this is happening within sporting culture. that this isn't about blame, this isn't about saying that coaches are at fault, or sporting organisations are at fault. You know, I'm, I'm a psychodynamic psychotherapist, as well, so I'm always thinking about dynamics, what's happening within individuals, but also then the dynamics outside of that individual. And there's such complexity within that, that we need to understand within sport, if we're going to help these individuals. And and that's why it stayed with me, I think, because I knew it was happening, and the more I spoke to other athletes, I knew that they were experiencing it as well. So it wasn't just me that this was happening to and that something needed to be done about it.

So how did your work grow from that first conversation with the university and helping those first few people?

Well it, it's then about the relationships that you establish with individuals in the local community, isn't it? I think it's about those individuals then starting to trust what you do. I think I found with high performance sports people that people are very cautious about letting you work with them, because in itself, they are part of an entertainment or business system where they are valued commodities. So before people let you work with them, they need to know you're a safe pair of hands. So it's very much been about building trust and relationships with coaches in the local area, but also sports doctors in the local area as well. And in that way, referrals have grown.

That's really interesting. I think I often say to people that the best marketing strategy is to be known by relevant other professionals who can then trust you and refer to you. So it doesn't surprise me at all that that is, you know, how it's grown for you. But I think there's also something that might be common to people who work in eating disorders generally, around this idea of you know, somebody is really putting their faith in you with something that they are holding on to very, very tightly. And I imagine the fear for an athlete that maybe having therapy might mean that they put on weight, or having therapy might mean that their performance dips, it must be a massive barrier to overcome, and it must take time to build that trust.

Yeah, yeah, it's huge. And yeah, it's very frightening. And I think the other platform that I've recently been experimenting with, which is incredibly new to me, is social media. But that has also lent itself to athletes contacting me on Instagram. Now, years ago, I would never have thought that that would be appropriate, if I'm being honest. But there is something that for these individuals who feel that within their sporting systems, they cannot trust the coach, or they cannot even trust the sports doctor, sometimes, it's not always the case, but there's a real fear that if I reach out within that system, is that going to mean that I'm cut from the team? Because if I have mental health difficulties, does that mean they think that my mindset isn't right for performance? So there's a real fear. So there's, there's something also about social media, which means that people can see your content, and people can recognise that you might have some understanding in this area of what they're struggling with. And in that sense, it's a building of trust to say, well, actually, this person might know what, what I'm struggling with, and, and one individual who did contact me through that platform has said that to me, they said, look, I've seen psychologists in the past, but they just haven't quite got the nuances of being an athlete with mental health difficulties. But I knew when I read your content, that you would get that. And that's been incredibly helpful, because it's then another anonymous way of someone just self referring, and saying, I need to see someone. So that that can overcome some of those fears as well.

It's so powerful. And I think what you're also doing there is normalising, because they know that if you've written about it, they can't be the only person who's struggling in that, in that way. Such a powerful tool, and I think you're right, we need to explore how we can use that to reach these groups that would have been hard to reach. Y'know, athletes are traditionally a hard to reach group, because they don't trust people. It's a bit like veterans. If you don't have a military background, veterans really struggle to trust you with their stories. And I imagine it's very similar for athletes. Do you think the fact that you do have that experience that you know, you've done the swimming and that you've done the lightweight rowing, do you think that helps people?

Potentially. I can remember when I wrote the book, and I, it was my rowing partner, who was my first pair of eyes on it really, for every chapter that I wrote. And it was just wonderful to have that really. But her feedback from the introduction where I did share a bit about my own background was that she felt that it, it made what I was writing about even more credible because of my own personal experience. And as a psychodynamic psychotherapist it's, it's not something that we would typically do to actually share something of our own history and our own lives and vulnerability. And so I also spoke to my psychodynamic supervisor about it as well to say, look, I'm thinking of doing this, what do you think? But again that's, that's something else that I'm starting to think a bit more about in terms of how people access us as clinicians, and how naive it is to think that people won't pick up on certain things about us and personal information. And of course, the Instagram platform is, is a professional page. There's nothing personal on there about what I'm up to at the weekends. But of course, people will pick up some things about us personally from those platforms. And I think that's okay. And I think yes, athletes potentially do need to know that you understand a bit about this, and you've been through it yourself as well.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I was having a conversation with somebody, another therapist on social media, who took a very hard line that if somebody asked them if they had ever struggled with their mental health, their response would be well, I wouldn't tell you about my physical health, so I'm not going to tell you about my mental health. And I had quite a strong reaction to that. I'm not going to lie, because I feel personally that that's giving an impression that any of us don't struggle, that, that we're these people on pedestals who can, you know, operate completely functionally all of the time. And that's very stigmatising. And I can't, yeah, I do struggle to get, get on board with that in the environment we're in now. And we were talking before we came online about how the world has changed. And now what we hold back means something different, potentially, to what it might have meant you know, 10, 20 years ago. People might read into it differently, I think now, to what they would have done in the past.

Yeah, definitely. And I, like you say, it's entirely new. I don't know the answers to this. I don't know whether they are clear cut at all. It's an incredibly complex area. But I, I feel that the way in which people consume information now is so different to 10 years ago. And if we're not a part of that, I'm somewhat concerned that the people that are a part of it, may be giving alternative information that on occasion may be valid, but on other occasions may not be. And of course, that can shape what people's views, perceptions of psychology, psychoanalysis is, and I almost feel as if we have a bit of a responsibility to be a part of that so that we are making people educated consumers of psychology, because if people are vulnerable, they need advice on where to go.

Absolutely. And that's just got me thinking, actually, and just tell me if this is daft, but it, are there people who are maybe less helpful that athletes might be likely to follow? You know how we've got like the pro-ana community in the eating disorder sphere, are there similar things on social media that athletes might be consuming?

Yes. And we know as psychologists, there's protected titles, you know, clinical psychologist is a protected title, sports psychologist is a protected title. But ultimately, mindset coach, or whatever else people want to call themselves are not protected titles. And these individuals may have done courses or may have something helpful to offer individuals, but I don't know whether people online fully understand what they should be looking for in terms of qualifications, experience, and whether or not an individual is a good fit. And I constantly get this, that people will fire off an inquiry to me, because they've seen that I work with athletes. And the first question, I always have to ask is look, I need to make you aware that I'm a clinical psychologist, so I work with athletes with mental health difficulties. I am not a sports psychologist. If you're contacting me to enhance your performance, then I'm not the right person for you. And we all have a duty to make sure that we stay within our legends, and we signpost individuals to the person that's the best fit. But we can't always guarantee that everyone's doing that, sadly.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really, really important. And we've not done a good job as clinical psychologists, and I think it's the same for psychotherapy, we have not done a very good job at all, of making our remit clear to people. I think you know, most people, you introduce yourself at a party, people do not know what a clinical psychologist does. So we've clearly not done a great job as a profession of being known. So of course, people are going to be like, oh, psychologist, I'm sure they can help me with anything to do with the brain, surely. And that makes sense. And especially I know, you know, athletes can have slightly longer careers now, but I'm guessing that you are dealing a lot of the time with very young people who may be, and you know that again, this is a huge generalisation, but I'm guessing if you're very, very good at a sport that you kind of get almost sucked out of normal life a little bit because you're spending so much time training and are in that environment with those particular groups of people. So how are they supposed to have an awareness of who they should reach out to? Most young people don't.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I, I really worry about the, the child athletes and the academy footballers that come through, because it's a very different developmental pathway that they experience. So if we, if we think of the stages of development, I kind of see adults in the clinic that emotionally or developmentally, still sit within that latency stage, where everything's structured, they're told what to do from morning to night, you know, you need to eat this, you need to train here, you need to look after your sleep, don't go out drinking. And what, what they tend to miss out on is that adolescent stage, which, which is hugely important in terms of developing their own mind, protesting, you know, doing all of those really important things of adolescence. And of course, if, if those younger athletes that are in that system aren't encouraged to develop their own mind, I fear, where is it going to come from internally for them to think I need to reach out and get some help here?

Yeah, I think it's such a different pathway through life. And we know that your people struggle with all of these things anyway. But to do that, to try and resolve those stages in such a unique environment, it must be really, really challenging. So I mean, we've talked a little bit, haven't we about the sorts of things that might make athletes particularly vulnerable to mental health difficulties, and I'm sure we could talk a lot more about it, but is there a particular approach that you find most helpful to working with athletes? Are you usually working one on one? Or how does it look in your clinic?

Yeah, yeah, no, it's very much one to one therapy for me. And it's an integrative approach, but predominantly psychodynamic in nature, because of these internal conflicts that, that are apparent. However, saying that, sometimes, you know, we've just touched upon the individual that's gone through academy sport, and just hasn't been able to think for themselves. Sometimes it's, it's quite practical, and quite direct, in terms of this is what we need to do, you know, I often talk about the tower model versus the pyramid model in a very explicit, clear way that these individuals have been stacking the blocks of sport for all of their life, which means that they're very vulnerable to collapse if sport goes, so if there's an injury or retirement, their entire tower collapses, whereas we need to build this pyramid model of sport, relationships, life, hobbies, well-being enjoyment. And, and that's something that sometimes I have to be quite direct on, because at the start of that therapeutic journey, they have been used to a coach just telling them what to do. So inviting someone to generate emotional language and thought, and introspection is, is a task in itself of the therapy over a longer term.

So that sounds like quite long term work.

Yes. Yeah, it is. And it, well, psychodynamic work is typically over a number of years, but I think it can also be longer term work in the sense of supporting an individual with retirement as well, that that's not an easy process, it's not a smooth process, so, so that can take a number of years to support that adjustment as well.

Hmm. And are, are the athletes or the people seeking help on behalf of them open to that, when you, you know, lay out on the line that this is likely to be a long piece of work, not six sessions, and you're out.

Yes, actually, I'm just thinking in terms of the client group. Yes, I believe so. I think initially at the start there's, there's a bit of uncertainty as to oh, hang on, you know, typically, we with physical health, we get this done, you know, just fix me and get me back out there.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, they might be expecting it to work a bit like physio.

Yeah, sure. But I think it's part of that experiential learning with psychodynamic work, isn't it? You kind of try and tell people what the process is like, but until you've done it, you don't really know what it's like, but, but once there's that experience and there's that sense of holding, then I think people are very comfortable with the long term support, and have wanted it for a long time actually.

That's really interesting. Where do you see the culture going? Do you think... there's been a lot of talk in the media, because of what's happened at the Olympics with high profile athletes withdrawing and saying that it was to do with their mental health, there's been a lot of talk in the media about whether there's this cultural shift in athletics, where it's becoming more okay to talk about mental health. I am always sceptical when I see that kind of thing. What's your perception of the culture, is it changing?

I think we've got a long way to go. My concern at the moment is that it feels as if it's very accepted for athletes to say that they're struggling with their mental health. But I'm really concerned that that debate doesn't seem to be developing in any way. And it doesn't seem to be directly impacting upon the largest sporting organisations that have a duty of care to respond to this. It's not going to be a quick fix though. You know, we have to understand that the systems in place and sporting culture in our country has been established over years and years. I mean it's, it's an entrenched way of being now. And you asked me how I work, I work individually, because those individuals that come to me have a receptiveness and an openness to thinking about shifting. I don't know about wider organisations, whether there is an openness to always consider that. So in the book, I interviewed Tammy Grey-Thompson, who's an incredible individual and figure, and she was asked to write a government paper on duty of care in sport. And this was published, and many recommendations were made about how to start moving the culture within sport forward so that we were supporting our athletes. However, not much happened since that paper was written. And some, some clubs have responded, but in terms of then money being pushed into that, the next stages happening, not a lot has happened. And Tammy spoke to me about this term enforce compliance, where if there were recommendations that were made, people were kind of doing it but, but it was more of a tick box exercise than an active engagement with this process of d'know I, I'm buying into what you're saying here and we need to do something about this. And, and sadly I do see that myself, you know I, I can get calls where it's look, we need a clinical psychologist, can we put you down? And then that's the end of it. It's almost as if as long as we say we've got a clinical psychologist, then, then we've ticked that box. But ultimately, there's so much more that needs to be considered than this just being a reactive approach. And I think that's what we're quite bad at in this country. Our health system is very reactive, we wait until things are too bad, and then suddenly you have to go and see someone. I think we ultimately need a huge overhaul of sporting culture, where we need to do something more proactive, and preventative with these athletes, right from the start, if we're going to make any significant change.

It sounds like it's mirroring the wider culture. Because you know, this is similar to what we see in perinatal, incredibly reactive. You know, nobody is interested in intervening until a parent can't look after their child properly anymore, then we'll do something about it. And it's the same in the workplace, you tend to get the call for workplace intervention when somebody can't perform their job anymore.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And, you know, there are other countries in the world that are doing this differently. You know, that are using preventative medicine models, and these are helping. So it, it's happening, and I think we really need to explore this. And yes, it's great that athletes are saying that they've got mental health struggles, but we can't just accept that at face value. We need to do something about that now.

And I do wonder about the pressure it places on them, they then become this spokesperson with the disorder. And you think no, it's the system, and you know, you're being open about something that probably, you know, 50% of your colleagues are also experiencing, if not more, at different times, maybe at different stages and different severities. But, yeah, I really worry about that weight being put on the shoulders of usually a very young person. You know, I really felt for Simone Biles, she's carrying so many labels, and she's loved in the female ADHD community. I'm in a community for women with ADHD or ADHD traits, and she's absolutely loved in that community. But, but she's very young, and I'm like, yeah, don't expect her to carry this for you. Because that's a lot for an individual. And actually, wouldn't it be so much better if the organizations were taking it on their shoulders?

It's a huge responsibility. But again, this is, this is the tension at the moment, isn't it with platforms that are being used, and Simone Biles talking on her platform with millions of followers is going to have an impact, but it's a huge responsibility. And I, I often talk about this with some of the individuals that were in the book, you know, they wanted to increase awareness of this. And they're a name, people will listen to them. And I was aware when I was writing this that I'm not a name, you know, nobody's going to want to buy a book from me, who are, who am I? But with these individuals who have got a name, then it was a joining up of them saying, look, this is really important, we need to increase awareness. I've got the platform, but can you, can you put it in a way that's going to be helpful? And by partnering up in that way it, the value that both people bring is hopefully going to have some impact.

Yes, I've been excited to talk to you about the book, actually. So it's called Skewed to the Right. Can you tell me a little bit about you know, the purpose of the book and why you started writing it? And then we'll dig into the strategic partnerships for marketing it, because I think that's really useful for people to hear.

Sure, sure. So it links back to our earlier conversations really of wanting to just increase awareness that this was happening, but also to extend that debate. So not just that athletes have got mental health struggles, why are they struggling? Because in order for us to elicit a cultural shift in a helpful way, we need to understand what's going on. So this was very much a book where I wanted to share stories of athletes with mental health difficulties through a psychoanalytic and psychological lens. And in that way hopefully increase understanding. And there are a number of chapters that focus on a number of different athletes, Nigel Owens, international rugby referee, Luke Stoltman, Scotland's Strongest Man and World's Strongest Man competitor. And within each of their chapters it allowed me to look at various personality traits that we see within high performance sports people, that can be very helpful for achieving their sporting goals, but can also be a bit of a double edged sword in terms of bringing them closer to vulnerability, and developing mental health difficulties. So I wanted to increase understanding around that. And then I wanted a chapter at the end to say, right, how can we start to elicit a cultural shift? However, I'm well aware that that is a huge book in itself. So I am not suggesting that that has been answered in the final chapter at all. There's much more to do on that. But it's, it's starting to think about it.

I just think raising that question is so important though, because often people will stop before they get there. I think actually, sometimes we forget that it's our training that allows us to see that. Definitely I'm thinking when I do organisational work, often it's not through any malice, people really don't realise that it's organisational, systemic factors that are causing the workforce to be stressed. That's really new for people. And so I think anything you're doing where you're getting that idea into the mainstream, that the cure for this, and I'm doing the inverted commas which nobody can see, because this is a podcast, but hey. But the solution to this does not lie with individuals, it lies with much wider change. That's actually quite radical, and it's brilliant that it's, it's getting out there.

Thank you. It's such a huge challenge, though, isn't it, you've already brought in that what we're seeing in sport is paralleling what we're seeing in other groups within our culture and society. So you've just bought in the business world there as well. And it's, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because businesses are expecting so much more of their employees. So again, they'll kind of throw in a wellbeing seminar or just do some mindfulness practice. But ultimately having, having worked out in Cambodia, as well and seen a culture where Buddhism is just ingrained, it's, it's almost as if as a country we just think, well, we'll take that strategy, and if we use that strategy, well that'll mean we're fine. But ultimately, if the cultural foundation behind it isn't there, then we're fighting a bit of a losing battle. So it's, it's really tough, because it's on a huge systemic organisational level, like you say.

Yeah, and it's, it's kind of capitalism isn't it? I mean when you think about it it's performance is king. And, you know, we'll look after ourselves to the extent we need to to get the best performance. But other than that, it's a bit irrelevant. And I think in that cultural context, we are fighting, a tough battle, but a valiant one.

Yes, we will continue!

It sounds a bit depressing...

Yes, sorry about that.

Let's think, like before we came on, before we hit record, we were talking about the process of writing the book being quite enjoyable for you. And I think a lot of people like myself, I'm writing a book at the moment, I think a lot of people who listen to this will relate to that, that we like being creative, we're passionate about our subject, so actually writing a book, yes, it's a big project, but it can be a really fulfilling one. But we were talking also about what comes after that. And that's sort of the marketing project. Can you say a little bit about how that's been for you?

Yeah. Oh, goodness, I used to... yeah, you've just acknowledged that it got a bit depressing. I don't know if I want to take it to a depressing place. You're absolutely right, in that I loved writing the book. I mean, goodness, it took me five years, which was, which was a long time. But it was such a process that was so cathartic for me as well, actually. And I got so much from it to meet like minded people who generously just donated their stories in a very exposing way. But just had a shared vision that we need to increase awareness. And that was incredible, to meet these people, and to then have a Friday to just sit down and be creative. And I've, I've maintained that Friday, you know, I work clinically Monday to Thursday, and then Friday is my... I mean goodness, I probably shouldn't say this, it sounds terrible doesn't it? But creative Friday, that's what I call it. And it's a space for me to write. And at the start, it was also a place for me to do photography. And I did a couple of photography exhibitions as well, that increased awareness of various mental health areas. So trauma in Cambodia, life after brain injury. But it's been a similar process with the photography exhibitions as it has with writing the book, in that I love the creative process, but my goodness, no one told me that once you finish writing this book, there is a whole nother animal waiting. And that's the marketing. And oh my goodness it... yeah, there's so much you can do to market a book, but it really moves away from the creative process, with exceptions sometimes actually, of writing content for social media, and other magazines, potentially. But yeah, it's, it's a bit of a different beast, and it can get out of hand, and it can become quite overwhelming. Because you know, now I have a spreadsheet for my marketing, and there's different tabs for this, and there's different tabs for social media. There's different tabs for contacting these people, there's different tabs for writing magazine articles or newspaper articles. And it just spirals. And so yeah it's, it's been a steep learning curve.

Definitely. And I just wish, I'm so glad to have you talking about this, because I really wish that people thought about this before they wrote their books. So that you could be kind of writing your book with marketing in the back of your mind while you do it. Because things like every time you interviewed somebody for their story, getting a little snippet of video that you can then repurpose. Things that you wouldn't be thinking about if you're using this traditional model of, well, I'm gonna write it and then I'm gonna market. And building the audience for it potentially, before you start writing so that you know that there are people waiting to buy it when it's finished. But none of us are told this, none of us are told this. I wasn't. I did a course, a couple of years ago now on, on writing a book. It wasn't specifically for mental health professionals. It was just so you know, people who want to write a book, and it was all about developing a good writing habit and that kind of thing. But actually, I think we're quite good at that already. We've done quite a lot of writing through our careers and it's a treat for a lot of us, a lot of us would be oh yeah, that Friday sounds fantastic. So we don't struggle in the way that a lot of people do. And a lot of the writing courses that are out there are aimed at people who maybe they will find it really difficult to get their thoughts on paper and disciplining themselves to write 200 words a day would be a very, very difficult thing. Whereas actually we need something a bit different, because for us, we tend to love the writing, but be a little bit too passive about the marketing. And then it's just heartbreaking because people think that their book wasn't good, because nobody bought it, when actually, they just didn't realise that you need to dedicate one or two days a week to becoming a marketing agency. And training yourself in what that means.

Yeah, I wonder as well about the process of marketing in that as psychologists, we're so used to sitting in a room, where we then close the door, and no one really sees us. And if we're going to write a book, something of ourselves is going to be in a book, there's no doubt that that's not going to happen. So there's something quite exposing about marketing as well and marketing a product that you've delivered. And I wonder whether that can be quite a challenge for us as psychologists, because it is about putting ourselves out there. So that's part of the learning curve as well, and can be incredibly frightening. I mean, goodness, me, I didn't have personal social media before I did this professional Instagram page. And I can remember the number of times that I checked what I was putting out before I put it out there and thought, is this okay? Is this contentious? What are people going to think? And to actually have the confidence to press that button and know it's going to be out there now is, is big. You know, it's something that has to be developed over time. And it's also a learning curve in terms of what do people respond well to? And by that it's not just positively is it? It's what do people respond to that stimulates debate or thought? And people are talking about it then in the comment section? And that, that takes time to develop as well.

Absolutely. And a bit of tolerance and acceptance of the fact that say, with a message like yours, there are going to be people who really disagree with you.

Yes.

And, and who do, you know, vehemently worry that if people take your advice, we'll get less medals at the next Olympics. But actually, that's the debate that will move us forward. And it's really difficult, and I've personally struggled with this loads, getting comfortable with putting out content that some people will not like.

Yes.

I think we maybe don't address this as much as we need to in training, that you can't always be liked. It might be different in dynamic training, actually, but certainly in clinical psychology training, I don't think anybody really forced us to confront the fact that you can't always be... you're not your client's friend. Sometimes you'll be disliked by clients. Sometimes you'll be disliked by organisations. I've done lots of work going into care homes and training staff and sometimes having to highlight where things are not, not acceptable practice. Not liked, not, that's not a likable position to be in often. And I feel the same about social media. Sometimes you're going to have to say stuff which, it might be essential to move the debate forward, but it's not necessarily going to be liked by everybody.

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. And that's interesting. I hadn't considered that before in terms of our trainings and how, how it prepares us for not being liked. I, I think I have to say that actually, within the psychodynamic world, it did prepare me for not being liked.

I thought it might.

Yeah, it did. But of course, within that there's an understanding that it's not necessarily you that's not being liked as such, it's it's part of the, the dynamic process, it's part of the transference. But of course it's, it's then applying that knowledge to a social media platform that if you're then writing something that is then responded to in a negative way, or an attacking way, there is a reason for that. And that has happened, it has, and it's, it's challenging when it happens, we're all human, goodness me, it's not as if you know, I'm psychodynamically trained so I'm immune to this. That's not the case at all. It's really challenging when you get those comments, but there is a level of understanding that clearly, the post or the contents of the post has pushed a button in that individual, where it's hard for them to consider what I'm talking about. So it's part of the process, isn't it? But there's then an awareness that well that individual isn't a patient, that individual isn't a client where you can then engage in that, and so that's quite challenging for us as psychologists as well, because how do you respond to a comment, which clearly suggests that this individual is struggling with something, but then it's not necessarily our responsibility to offer advice?

Yes, it's, that is really difficult. And I would say I get at least once a week, I get a comment on my social media, videos particularly it tends to be, that really makes me concerned and I think have all of those debates going through my mind. You know, personally, sometimes it's about signposting. I usually try and write something as warm as I can in response, even if what they've said is really offensive. But I can see the pain underneath it, I'll usually try and write something warm and signposting. And then if that person feels the need to continue, that's when I might ban them. Because it's not helping them and it's not helping anybody else to see it. But I'm not saying that that's the right way at all. I don't think, we don't yet have a right way for handling this. There probably isn't one.

No, you're right. But I think we're talking earlier, weren't we about how we need guidance on this?

We do.

But what a challenging paper to write. I mean, goodness me, it's such a complex area that, that does lack control and supervision of contents. So how do we manage this? But again, I don't know whether that means that we should avoid it either. Because like you say, ultimately, by not engaging with it, what is that communicating in itself as a profession when we should be helping people?

Exactly. I think it's far better to engage with it, take it to supervision. And I think you mentioned earlier taking something supervision that isn't, you know, it's not a traditional therapy problem, but it's a problem that you're facing as part of your profession. And I think that's really appropriate. And I think the more that we do that, the more that we talk about it and have that peer supervision, as well as our regular professional supervision, I think that's how we'll gradually find a messy way of dealing with this that we feel comfortable with, as a professional group.

Yes.

So that's kind of the social media side of things. But what would you say has been the most successful marketing that you've done for the book? Because I'm sure people are desperate to hear about that.

Well, I don't know whether... I well, I suppose it isn't a modern form of marketing now. I feel uncomfortable calling it marketing really, because it was never really something that I asked for directly. But it's been sports people that have taken part in the book that have a huge social media following that have then spoken about the book, or have actually, and this is a very different area indeed, I don't know whether we'll go into this, but have actually openly said, I see this woman for psychology on their social media platforms. Now I've never experienced that before. And, you know, as I've said earlier, psychology is typically something that happens behind a closed door. But because they are aware that they are influencers, and now I'm using the inverted commas that no one can see, they have a platform that can influence and shape what information people are consuming. And I worked with this year's World's Strongest Man and his brother, and around competition time they spoke openly on a lot of YouTube videos. They have their own channel, they're doing a documentary with inspirational change documentary makers, the Mulligan brothers, they were doing a lot of podcasts. And they put out these posts that they were working with me. And suddenly there was a spike in sales, to the extent that it was sold out on Amazon a number of times. I don't know what that really communicates if I'm honest, because I don't know how many they hold in stock.

But it's great, celebrate it!

Yeah, but it's wonderful. So, so there was an incredible spike at that stage as well. So, you know, it's like I said earlier, I'm, I'm not anyone, but these people are recognised. And so joining together has, has had real impact.

I'm not surprised. And I think there's a lot that we can learn from that when, you know, if if people are listening to this and thinking about writing the book, then who, not every book obviously has stories in it, not every book is an interview based book, but who could you get to read it, write a foreword perhaps? Because if you're really serious about getting your message out there, then we need to be brave, and talk to people who can amplify those messages. Even when it does feel uncomfortable. And I think we had Michaela Thomas talking about her book, and being on the Deliciously Ella podcast was a huge catalyst for, for that success. And it's reaching an audience who we can't reach on our own. And we need to do that because we're in an echo chamber, let's face it, we all agree with each other, these ideas are great. But actually we want to reach people who maybe you know don't yet have much awareness of what we're doing. And finding strategic partnerships is a really, really good way of doing that, and I think you're a really great example of doing that very well.

Oh, thank you. I mean, it was definitely a part of writing this book, I didn't just want to write it so it was accessible to us as psychologists or us as psychoanalysts. I wanted to write it so that it was accessible to your population that would want to pick up a sports biography off the shelf. Because if we are going to increase awareness, like you say, it can't just be done within our closed circle where we all agree anyway, it has to, it has to ripple outside of that. So that we can increase awareness on a much larger scale. And I hope I've written it in a way that's accessible. And you're right to mention, who can we partner up with and, and I was incredibly fortunate to have four individuals endorse the book that were from various areas, including Dr. Zoe Williams from This Morning. And Luke Sutton, sports agent. So it's just linking up with those people that are interested in this and want to increase awareness as well.

Yes. And how did you... I mean, obviously, I imagine it's long stories, but how did you develop some of those relationships? So I imagine people might be thinking, well I don't know anybody high profile like that.

Yeah, yeah, I'm, well, being in the sports world myself in the past I, individuals were colleagues or friends or teammates that, that I rowed with, or individuals that I knew as coaches. So Graham Fowler, the England cricketer was a coach at the University where I was and then continued to work with some of his cricketers, actually, whilst he was there. Yes, it's, again, it's word of mouth. You know, it's, it's people say, oh, d'you know what, you should really talk to this person. And then it's, it's those, it's the trust in the relationship that's developed. And I think that's why it took so long to write to be honest, because you had to establish trust that this was not sensationalist, this was not journalism. It wasn't a hit and run interview where I just want to get your story, and then write whatever I want. It was a collaborative process where I wanted to sit down with these individuals, recognise the generosity of what they were doing, and the delicate nature of the stories that they were sharing and say, I'm going to write something, but I need you to read it and then let me know if you're okay with that or if you want to work on that together so that you're okay with it. And so it was very much a collaborative process. And so it was very much about initial relationships that I already knew and then people trusting me to then refer me on to other people.

Yeah. So I think we talk loads in the marketing episodes of this podcast, about how personal relationships are the key to success. And we often really hold ourselves back, because we're scared to tell people we know about what we're doing. And the thought for a lot of people of of going back to maybe people they did have connections with at university, or through other areas of their life, and saying, look, I'm doing this now and it's kind of relevant to what you do, would you be interested in having a chat with me about it? That can feel terrifying. But it sounds like that's been a bit of a springboard for you. And actually, while there might be a gremlin in your head right now, saying but I don't know anybody that well connected, actually talk to the people that you are connected with, and you never know where those connections could take you if you let them.

Yeah. And you're absolutely right, that it feels almost quite risky, you know, you're reaching out to all of these people. I mean, yes, I think the book contains about eight to ten athletes, but, you know, it's really important that I share that I contacted, you know, I don't know, 50, 60 athletes in various different ways, and there was a lot of notes. And that, that's part of the process. But don't, don't let that worry you or think that what you're doing isn't right. It's all about whether or not the project is a good fit for the individual that you've contacted. You know, I was contacting sports agents, I was contacting people directly on again, various platforms that I never would normally use, and without a lot of success, really, but it was these personal relationships, that it's okay to contact people, and sometimes actually, it can be very helpful. I think people, a lot of people that took part in the book have said how therapeutic it's been for them, actually, even though it wasn't a therapy session at all. And that was made very clear from the start. And no one in the book is someone that I saw as a patient before they took part in the book. And it's, it's okay to contact these people because if it's not right, then they will say no.

Absolutely. And it won't mean anything about you. It's just about that goodness of fit at that moment.

Yes.

Such an important attitude to go in with. And the only, the only other thing that I'd add to that is, obviously not relevant for this particular book, but for a lot of people it is, it is relevant, that you might actually need to pay to get a relationship with somebody high profile. So I'm thinking, you know, if you were writing a book, which maybe was using compassion focus therapy as the backbone of it, then paying for supervision with somebody who is really prevalent in that field, you know, that enables you to get their feedback, which is incredibly valuable, but it also does mean that if they think you're doing good work, they might be willing to endorse that book and use their platform. So it is about allowing yourself to consider all of these different ways and not just thinking it's different for other people. Because actually, most of us have got opportunities, we're just sometimes not willing to explore them. And it was only, it was my business coach that let me in on that particular secret. Because I was reading other people's forewords, particularly in books, and being like, how do they get these amazing people? I don't meet any of these people. And she was like, oh well, they pay to meet them. They go to conferences that they're going to be at, they, they pay to go to their workshops, and then they talk to them afterwards. Or, you know, in our profession, they might pay for one on one supervision with them. I was like, d'you know what, I had never considered that, that I could get in front of somebody quite high profile if I pay to go to their conference. Of course I could.

Yeah, you're quite right. And, you know, I didn't do that in terms of getting people into the book to interview. But I did involve my supervisor in reading the chapters for me and offering supervision on that, because it's like you said earlier, that, that's part of our work now, if we're going to engage in these additional projects outside of clinical work, and it was incredibly helpful to have that input alongside my, my rowing partner, who was also happy to read it, and offer some feedback. So it's all of these different ways of, of gathering feedback that's so helpful.

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, so I always ask people at the end of podcasts, what action steps they want other psychologists and therapists listening to this to take? So have you had to think about that? What actions should people be taking?

Well, I'm aware that you were going to ask me this, and I cannot remember what I originally responded with. So I'm going to think in the moment and as a typical psychodynamic therapist, I probably won't do anything too direct that in terms of action steps, I guess for me, it's been about trusting the process. It took a long time, and that goes for the book, but also working privately, and what I do now. So trusting the process, and the organic nature of that. It was never within my, my plans to write a book, but it happened. And I think, to have the courage to just take risks, really. And to jump, on occasion, I think certainly when I left the NHS it felt like I was taking a risk, and I just had to jump and do it. And likewise, with the book, there is risk in this in that you're absolutely right that a lot of people won't like what's in it, but I think it's about having the courage to do that and to know that it's being done for hopefully, a good reason.

And I think that's a really inspirational message to finish on, actually, because so much of what we do falls into that category of won't be liked by everybody, but is hopefully going to move things forward. And that's what's so important. So I think there are going to be a lot of people that want to connect with you and find out more, and probably buy your book. I want to buy your book. So where's the best place for people to go and find you?

Yeah, so I have a LinkedIn page. Will you be putting all of these up Rosie, or do you want me...

I will, all of your links will be in the show notes, so no one needs to worry about remembering them.

So it's also probably helpful with spelling my surname as well, so that's great. So I have a LinkedIn page. I also have an Instagram page, professional page there. And finally, I have a website as well.

Okay, cool. And your website is very stylish, actually, I've been on there. And is that the best place to buy the book? Or should we buy it in Amazon? Or where should we get it?

So probably the best place is either Amazon, where it's either in Kindle format or paperback format. And it's available on Amazon Prime at the moment, which is great. It's also available directly from the publisher, which is Firing the Mind.

Okay, brilliant. And the book is called Skewed to the Right.

Yes, Skewed to the Right: Sport, Mental Health and Vulnerability.

Fantastic. Thank you so much, Amy, it's been such an interesting topic to talk about today. And I'm sure a lot of people have got a lot of value from it. So thank you.

Thank you for the invitation. It's been great to talk to you.

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