1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,920 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learn from a lecturer and manufacturing author on the mindset and people management skills required to succeed in hardware. 2 00:00:10,580 --> 00:00:19,480 Narrator: You're listening to the Product Startup Podcast, the show that helps bring your product idea to life by chatting with successful inventors, 3 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:27,440 Narrator: product developers, and hardware industry professionals. Our goal here is to get to the bottom of what makes a product successful. 4 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:33,080 Narrator: From initial idea to getting your product on store shelves, we're taking you step by step to 5 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:39,740 Narrator: build a functional product and scale your product business, hosted by Kevin Mako, one of North 6 00:00:39,740 --> 00:00:46,140 Narrator: America's leading experts on hardware development for small product businesses. Now, onto the show. 7 00:00:46,420 --> 00:00:52,880 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. Today, I'm very excited to introduce Karin Lindner to the show. Karen is the author of the book Make Manufacturing Sexy. 8 00:00:53,180 --> 00:01:00,140 Kevin Mako: She was also an instructor at Sheridan College and consults many manufacturers on human resources and performance. Today, Karen is going to share 9 00:01:00,140 --> 00:01:03,820 Kevin Mako: some valuable knowledge and how inventors, startups, and small manufacturers can understand the 10 00:01:03,820 --> 00:01:11,440 Kevin Mako: people needed to succeed in building a hardware company and the critical mindset both you and your team needs to be the best. Now, on to the episode. 11 00:01:12,020 --> 00:01:13,240 Kevin Mako: Hey, Karen, welcome to the show. 12 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,400 Karin Lindner: Hi, Kevin. So, great to be here. Thanks for having me. 13 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:23,760 Kevin Mako: Oh, thanks. I'm glad to have you on the show. I mean, many years ago, you had me keynote at your book launch. So it's been a long time. We've known each other. 14 00:01:24,220 --> 00:01:33,300 Kevin Mako: And it's great to see you're doing well. I'm very excited for you today to talk about making manufacturing sexy, the title of your book, of course, and as well, 15 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:38,440 Kevin Mako: how that applies to people on mindset for all these hardware startups that are developing their products and businesses, 16 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:46,520 Kevin Mako: either developing their own manufacturing, becoming a manufacturer, working with a manufacturer, or developing a product to be manufactured. This topic is very important. 17 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:47,460 Kevin Mako: So first and foremost, 18 00:01:48,020 --> 00:01:53,100 Karin Lindner: how did you get to where you are today? Good question. I used to work at Magna International, 19 00:01:53,890 --> 00:02:00,010 Karin Lindner: And that's really where I discovered my passion for the manufacturing industry. 20 00:02:00,010 --> 00:02:10,010 Karin Lindner: And I started to realize that oftentimes people don't understand each other. So the leaders have their own challenges and the workers have their challenges. 21 00:02:10,570 --> 00:02:16,530 Karin Lindner: And so there was a huge communication gap. By the end of 2006, I lost my job due to manufacturing. 22 00:02:17,130 --> 00:02:26,050 Karin Lindner: And I decided to start my own business solely focusing on the manufacturing industry. and help them to bridge this communication gap. 23 00:02:26,410 --> 00:02:30,110 Karin Lindner: That's how I started. And then I posted a discussion on LinkedIn. 24 00:02:30,870 --> 00:02:37,430 Karin Lindner: How can we make manufacturing sexy? And I got within two weeks, 450 responses to this question. Wow. 25 00:02:38,190 --> 00:02:44,850 Karin Lindner: And I started researching because then this became really interesting for me. I always wanted to write a book. 26 00:02:45,010 --> 00:02:52,970 Kevin Mako: I didn't really know what to write about. And the title of my book was born. That's amazing. So give us some insight to the book. What do you mean? 27 00:02:53,170 --> 00:03:02,050 Karin Lindner: when you say, how can we make manufacturing sexy? If we would go to young people and to ask them what they want to do with their life, 28 00:03:02,570 --> 00:03:10,530 Karin Lindner: manufacturing is not really the top thing on their mind, because there is still this image of manufacturing is 29 00:03:10,530 --> 00:03:19,030 Karin Lindner: dirty and not interesting, but there is so much technology now involved, what is really, really interesting for young people. 30 00:03:19,150 --> 00:03:27,470 Karin Lindner: And it's also about convincing the parents that, this is actually huge. Not every child needs to go to university. 31 00:03:27,890 --> 00:03:35,610 Karin Lindner: There is so much opportunity in this industry. And I know you work in product development and with hardware startups. 32 00:03:35,890 --> 00:03:43,850 Karin Lindner: Their possibilities are endless to go into this space. I always say, and I said it in my book too, we don't need more lawyers 33 00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:52,870 Kevin Mako: and accountants because it will be very difficult for those children to find a job. It's funny you mention that because a lot of the time, I remember in the early days, 34 00:03:52,870 --> 00:04:00,970 Kevin Mako: when I would be filling out forms online, like directories and such, and they would say, what industry are you in? Well, I'm in the product development industry. 35 00:04:01,150 --> 00:04:07,690 Kevin Mako: We make the gadgets that are around the world for clients. And that's not a subject in so many of these lists. 36 00:04:07,790 --> 00:04:16,670 Kevin Mako: So I would have to pick something else like professional services or some generic term because of the 100 plus industries that you could list, manufacturing or 37 00:04:16,670 --> 00:04:24,190 Kevin Mako: product development or product engineering wasn't even on the list, although if you look around your room right now with every listener that's out there, yourself, myself, 38 00:04:24,950 --> 00:04:33,130 Kevin Mako: we're surrounded by products. Products are incredibly important. They're a huge piece of our ecosystem and as the human race. 39 00:04:33,590 --> 00:04:41,250 Kevin Mako: So it's amazing that you wrote a whole book to highlight that and to really show that manufacturing is special. And it really is something that, 40 00:04:41,730 --> 00:04:48,550 Kevin Mako: especially for our listeners out there that are hardware startups and in the development space and creating something, I think never before has it been as good as it is now 41 00:04:48,550 --> 00:04:55,230 Kevin Mako: to say that you are in the manufacturing space, that you're developing a cool new gadget. or product, that you're innovating in hardware. 42 00:04:56,110 --> 00:05:02,680 Karin Lindner: Karen, you've been a part in that history to help make people realize that it's a very important part of the planet. Of course. 43 00:05:02,940 --> 00:05:12,040 Karin Lindner: And I can remember when I wrote this book, I had people telling me, Karen, why are you writing this book? We develop into a service industry. 44 00:05:12,420 --> 00:05:21,880 Karin Lindner: And I said, servicing what? We cannot just cut each other's hair and, you know, sell each other coffee. There is huge money in making. 45 00:05:21,980 --> 00:05:26,640 Karin Lindner: things and every good economy needs manufacturers. 46 00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:29,640 Karin Lindner: That's just the essence of everything. 47 00:05:30,340 --> 00:05:36,520 Karin Lindner: And so I really wanted to highlight with my book about all the opportunities that they 48 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:43,480 Karin Lindner: are, especially also like for startup companies, what they can consider compared to how it was 49 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:50,800 Karin Lindner: in the industrial age and how we develop now into the conceptual age, like more creativity, 50 00:05:51,460 --> 00:05:55,100 Karin Lindner: different way of thinking, different way of communicating. 51 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,120 Karin Lindner: That's what it is all about. 52 00:05:57,260 --> 00:06:06,880 Kevin Mako: And it's so important to inspire people to go ahead when they have an idea, to go ahead and develop that product. Well, it's much appreciated you saying that. 53 00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:15,020 Kevin Mako: Now, let's dive deeper into those subjects so that from your experience, your research, all the work that you've done over many, many years on this subject, 54 00:06:15,300 --> 00:06:20,300 Kevin Mako: you highlight a couple of things that I think are very important for the listeners to understand and develop in their product. 55 00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:26,320 Kevin Mako: One, you focus on the importance of communication and people skills within hardware startups, 56 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:34,380 Kevin Mako: working with either building a factory or working with factories, working with their various stakeholders, and how important understanding best practices and communication is. 57 00:06:34,660 --> 00:06:41,020 Kevin Mako: So I'd like to jump into that. I'd also like to go into mindset because you've done a lot of work on that as well in the manufacturing 58 00:06:41,020 --> 00:06:47,960 Kevin Mako: sector and some of the best practices around that for hardware startups to learn from. So let's start on the people side and communication. 59 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,280 Kevin Mako: Give us some of the understandings of best practices. 60 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:57,760 Karin Lindner: of what really works well and what people can think about in and around the subject of creating good communication in and amongst their stakeholders, primarily their manufacturing. 61 00:06:58,140 --> 00:07:05,820 Karin Lindner: There are a lot of limiting beliefs, right? So one would be, I'm a technical person. I'm just not good in communicating. 62 00:07:06,420 --> 00:07:13,400 Karin Lindner: So this would be one of them. And it's important to understand you cannot teach an old, dog, new tricks. 63 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:23,280 Karin Lindner: In my work, I have proven that you can. Anyone who is open and willing to learn communication is a skill. skill like any other skill can be learned. 64 00:07:23,820 --> 00:07:33,720 Karin Lindner: And when a hardware startup, for example, starts to build a team, it is important to look obviously for the 65 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:43,440 Karin Lindner: right people. Every company wants obviously to get the right people on the team. But oftentimes the skills are not there to really find those people. 66 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:50,120 Karin Lindner: Now, I want to tell you what I mean specifically by that. I used to work in HR at Magna and that's when 67 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,360 Karin Lindner: I realized how many people work in HR and actually do not like people. 68 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:04,960 Karin Lindner: And it's true. They go in for policies, for procedures. A great way of hiring when you are in a small company is actually 69 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,040 Karin Lindner: showing interest, 70 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:16,300 Karin Lindner: what does the person like to do in their personal time? So, for example, if you hire, let's say, a marathon runner, I use this as an example because 71 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:25,480 Karin Lindner: I love to run marathons, but it shows you a lot about the personality. of the person, goal-oriented, dedicated, committed 72 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,420 Karin Lindner: to accomplish something, really resilient. 73 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:35,640 Karin Lindner: It has a lot to do with mindset. So you would want to look for, does the person have a passion 74 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:41,300 Kevin Mako: in their personal life? If they don't have that, how can they bring this to work? 75 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:50,080 Kevin Mako: As a startup, especially, you want to have some pretty driven people. I don't know. Would you agree with that? Absolutely. I mean, that's key. Hiring and people skills. 76 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,900 Kevin Mako: are so important, especially when you think about the product design manufacturing space. 77 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:59,700 Kevin Mako: I really like how you mentioned the concept of the fallacy that people say, well, I'm a more technical mind in person. 78 00:08:59,980 --> 00:09:07,820 Kevin Mako: So I'm not really good at pitching my ideas or presenting. Well, that's a huge roadblock in a hardware startup. If you have a very technical founder and a very 79 00:09:07,820 --> 00:09:14,920 Kevin Mako: sales oriented founder and they are not working well and communicating well together, you are missing a lot of opportunity that's on the table there. 80 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:23,420 Kevin Mako: And now that's just two stakeholders. You've got your design teams. You've got your manufacturing partners, your patent, attorneys, your marketing crew, maybe some finance folks. 81 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:31,480 Kevin Mako: You've got a whole bunch of different people here that have different styles of communication when it comes to manufacturing a new product. And it's really important to lubricate. 82 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:38,060 Kevin Mako: And I love how you mentioned that to get the conversation going, understand what's going on in their personal life and what they believe in and love 83 00:09:38,060 --> 00:09:40,140 Kevin Mako: doesn't have to be the same interest as you. 84 00:09:40,180 --> 00:09:46,880 Karin Lindner: But it certainly might tell a lot about a person to see if this is a long-term fit with what you believe your corporate culture or your corporate 85 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:52,260 Karin Lindner: attitude is going to be to succeed as a new product or a new manufacturer. A hundred percent. 86 00:09:52,640 --> 00:10:01,860 Karin Lindner: And then also like asking them about the expectation so that you know from the get-go. What kind of work environment do you expect to get into? 87 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:09,180 Karin Lindner: What is important for you rather than going into the interview? It's like, I'm the boss. You want something from me. 88 00:10:09,180 --> 00:10:14,000 Karin Lindner: many of the young people don't respond well to that. So they want to contribute. 89 00:10:14,460 --> 00:10:15,820 Kevin Mako: They want to have a voice. 90 00:10:16,540 --> 00:10:25,320 Kevin Mako: And they definitely want to tell you also what their expectations are. So it has to be give and take on both sides. That's very, very important. 91 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:32,660 Kevin Mako: How do you build these structure into either the hiring process or once somebody's actually in the company? And whether it's you're hiring a contractor or whether 92 00:10:32,660 --> 00:10:37,100 Kevin Mako: you're hiring an employee, a lot of these principles, I would think, are the same. You want to have the 93 00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:42,060 Kevin Mako: same commitment from somebody who you were hiring as a vendor to do a specific job or whether 94 00:10:42,060 --> 00:10:45,720 Kevin Mako: you're hiring an individual person to fill a specific role that you're hiring as an employee, 95 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:52,940 Karin Lindner: especially as a hardware startup that only has a few limited amount of stakeholders, you really want to have that team continuity. Yeah. How do you put that together? How do you, 96 00:10:53,220 --> 00:11:00,960 Karin Lindner: or what are some of the practices that you've seen from people who really do that well? The first thing is, is really to start thinking, what kind of team 97 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:09,080 Karin Lindner: do I want to build? What do I want to create. And I want to give myself as an example, when I first started my business, 98 00:11:09,420 --> 00:11:18,300 Karin Lindner: being an entrepreneur, starting something from nothing to build it, I went out to clients and I only thought about what I thought was great. 99 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:26,480 Karin Lindner: And I didn't ask enough questions. This was probably my biggest mistakes with potential clients, 100 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:35,580 Karin Lindner: but also with people I worked with, ask questions. What is their point point, pain point. It's not about me. 101 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:44,800 Karin Lindner: It's all about them. This is important for hardware startups. If they want to communicate this to other people, they definitely have to 102 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:51,540 Karin Lindner: learn this because it doesn't help you when you are the smartest person in the room, when you have the most fantastic product. 103 00:11:51,860 --> 00:11:57,360 Karin Lindner: If you cannot communicate this message, then this is very, very complicated to do. 104 00:11:57,780 --> 00:12:07,400 Karin Lindner: To go back to your question, I would just say, thinking first what you want is important. And that's a challenge for many because they don't really know what they 105 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:13,740 Karin Lindner: want, what team they want to create. And then going from there and really see in what areas 106 00:12:13,740 --> 00:12:20,460 Karin Lindner: would I need help and in what areas can I manage myself. When people come in, make them feel 107 00:12:20,460 --> 00:12:29,640 Kevin Mako: special, make them feel you are about to create something really fantastic and not that you come in and say, hey, I'm just at the beginning. 108 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:36,480 Kevin Mako: I don't really know what I want. This is not a, it's not really attractive for people. I totally agree with that. And the nice thing about it being a 109 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:45,220 Kevin Mako: hardware startup is that every person that you bring on the team, whether even before you start hiring, whether it's an advisor or somebody who you're just reviewing 110 00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:54,380 Kevin Mako: your product with for customer feedback, or whether it's a design team you've hired like us at macro design. Either way, you have very few stakeholders. 111 00:12:54,980 --> 00:13:03,900 Kevin Mako: Every one of those stakeholders is very special to your business. They're all doing something very big overall. You're not just one in 10,000. 112 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:11,360 Kevin Mako: You're one in five or one in 10 of people who are hopefully following your dream, believe in your vision. And that's why they've come on board for some reason or another. 113 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,700 Kevin Mako: They're with you because they believe in what you're doing. So you need to believe in what you're doing. 114 00:13:15,860 --> 00:13:20,580 Kevin Mako: And I would say one of the more interesting exercises that we went through in the early days of building macro design. 115 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:27,360 Kevin Mako: And it's something that you can do even if you haven't got to the hiring portion of your hardware startup yet or even if you're still trying to figure out what that might 116 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,260 Kevin Mako: eventually look like. I just build out a little org chart. 117 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:36,600 Kevin Mako: I did it when we had three people. Actually, one of our designers, Rob Colgan, we did it together, who's still with us today. 118 00:13:36,780 --> 00:13:45,140 Kevin Mako: We built it together and we said, man, what would it look like if we actually got this firm to like a 10-person design house? To us, it was like the holy grail. 119 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:51,980 Kevin Mako: Like, we would never get there, but let's dream. Let's put it on paper because we were two and a half people at the time, really, let's say. 120 00:13:52,300 --> 00:14:01,000 Kevin Mako: And now here we are a 30-person team years later. and it was amazing to see that just putting that small, simple org chart, shining star, 121 00:14:01,460 --> 00:14:08,360 Kevin Mako: not only did it give us some clear and directional vision, but it allowed us much earlier to start making decisions that helped make that happen 122 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:13,720 Kevin Mako: or to improve that as we realized that slightly changing things would make it better over time 123 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,260 Kevin Mako: so that we had a better shining star to continually shoot towards as we perpetually improved. 124 00:14:18,260 --> 00:14:22,940 Kevin Mako: And all of these things come back to feedback, which is something I guess you find very important, 125 00:14:22,940 --> 00:14:27,100 Kevin Mako: And especially when you mentioned, ask the questions, which I think is so brilliant, because it's the 126 00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:36,900 Karin Lindner: easiest way for you to get engagement with minimal effort. Just simply ask questions of the people around you. Let them respond to let you know what they're interested in. 127 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:44,740 Karin Lindner: What makes them tick? What do they appreciate or not appreciate about your product, yourself, and or your business? 100%. 128 00:14:44,740 --> 00:14:51,560 Karin Lindner: And, you know, what you just said is just such a great example. Thinking first, what do I want? Building from their division. 129 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,560 Karin Lindner: Like here's one thing what I would say could be done differently. 130 00:14:56,420 --> 00:15:02,340 Karin Lindner: Build the org chart upside down. So let's say Kevin Marco is at the bottom. 131 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:10,560 Karin Lindner: How does he serve his management team and how do they serve the next group of people? 132 00:15:11,060 --> 00:15:17,200 Karin Lindner: So basically what this does is really, it's often talked about this kind of servant leadership style. 133 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:27,240 Karin Lindner: But when you have it in the org chart like this, rather than show. to the people, I'm at the top and you are just at the bottom. Or when people say to me, people 134 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:28,220 Karin Lindner: work under me. 135 00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:30,740 Karin Lindner: I'm like, nobody works under you. 136 00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:40,540 Kevin Mako: They work with you. This is like such a great concept of thinking about, does my team have everything they need to succeed? 137 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:50,640 Kevin Mako: May this be training, may this be all the tools they need to have in order to help you to fulfill the vision, what you have as the business owner. 138 00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:20,620 Kevin Mako: That's amazing. And that's such an easy thing that anybody could do today. It's really a fun exercise as well. 139 00:16:20,620 --> 00:16:24,820 Kevin Mako: product. But keep in mind that once you build a great product, you've got many other things to 140 00:16:24,820 --> 00:16:30,980 Karin Lindner: think about. People are always going to be a big part of that, which is why this topic is so important. I appreciate having you on the show for this. 141 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:39,800 Karin Lindner: So in and around the theory of people, you also talk a lot about mindset and how that can also factor into all of this to create a great hardware organization. 142 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:46,440 Karin Lindner: Can you talk a bit about some of the high level strategies in and around mindset and some best practices that hardware startups can think about? 143 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:55,060 Karin Lindner: 100%. I would say the most important thing is to think about the things what you want, rather what you don't want. 144 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:02,820 Karin Lindner: That sounds very basic, but really, 70% of the population think about what they want to get away from, 145 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,320 Karin Lindner: rather than about what they want to create. 146 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:17,460 Karin Lindner: And it again comes back down to this exercise of figuring out what I want. And it has to do with positive communication, not only 147 00:17:17,460 --> 00:17:23,740 Karin Lindner: to other people, but in your mind. And when you start something, as you know, well, Kevin 148 00:17:23,740 --> 00:17:32,200 Karin Lindner: and I have done it as well, you have to build this resilience when you have those crappy days, how you can manage yourself to 149 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:40,880 Karin Lindner: talk yourself out of it. And a lot of it has to do with the story. You tell yourself about yourself, about your success story and where you 150 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:49,460 Karin Lindner: want to bring your product. So easy to say, oh, it doesn't go well and I have to go back in a job and it doesn't work out to have those kinds of. 151 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:56,520 Karin Lindner: of thoughts or really become aware of the thought process that you have, everybody can learn that. 152 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:05,700 Karin Lindner: And I want to give a personal example again when I thought, for example, oh, I don't get this client because my company is too small. 153 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:12,540 Kevin Mako: Then I would say out loud, here's my bullshit story again. Of course I will get the client because I'm the best. 154 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:21,080 Kevin Mako: So it's really about changing the thought process consciously and most people are not aware what's going on 155 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:30,480 Kevin Mako: in their head and how easy they manipulate their own success. And sometimes they are just two feet away from gold and they give up. That's incredible. 156 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,680 Kevin Mako: I mean, there's a lot to unpack within what you said. 157 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:43,200 Kevin Mako: The whole glass half full thing is not just a nice line to say, I have seen this firsthand. I have got to work on 158 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:53,060 Kevin Mako: well over a thousand hardware projects. And you can very much see the difference between the type of designers and engineers, inventors, ideators, companies, you 159 00:18:53,060 --> 00:19:01,360 Kevin Mako: name it. The team that's working on the project, if they are the pessimistic sort, the focus on the problem sort, although it may 160 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:09,420 Kevin Mako: seem logical in engineering and somewhat as framed in engineering. You do want to search for the problems, but you're not searching for the problems to identify what they are. 161 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,660 Kevin Mako: You're searching for the problems to figure out what the solutions are. 162 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:21,020 Kevin Mako: So solutions are really what your mind should be focusing on, not dwelling on the problem itself. 163 00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:30,180 Kevin Mako: And although that seems maybe obvious or logical, I completely agree with you, Karen, I see this quite regularly. A lot of the time with hardware startups, they get frustrated. 164 00:19:30,180 --> 00:19:37,160 Kevin Mako: They dwell on the what ifs. They dwell on the negatives. And they don't focus on the positives that are coming out of it. 165 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,020 Karin Lindner: And many of those positives are huge, equity values for their actual product. 166 00:19:41,780 --> 00:19:49,840 Karin Lindner: Overcoming a hurdle, overcoming failure is incredibly valuable to businesses. Learning from that variable is extremely valuable. 167 00:19:50,460 --> 00:19:57,340 Karin Lindner: So focus on solutions, glass half full, optimism. And I can tell you from firsthand experience looking at many, many, many projects, 168 00:19:57,820 --> 00:20:05,300 Karin Lindner: it almost always unanimously leads to a better result than those who are focusing on it in complete negativity. 100%. 169 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:14,240 Karin Lindner: And, you know, just so funny, my book actually has two four. words. I don't know if you remember. One is for optimists and one is for pessimists. So I thought 170 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:20,260 Karin Lindner: I speak to everyone this way. But what you just said about failure, and I mean, this is an important 171 00:20:20,260 --> 00:20:29,380 Karin Lindner: topic because I think every entrepreneur has dealt with this. I reframed the word failure. Failure is really only there when you give up. 172 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,480 Karin Lindner: So I call it feedback. I get feedback what works 173 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:42,720 Kevin Mako: and what doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, I have to look for a different way of doing it. So this could be like getting a client, getting a meeting with someone. 174 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:48,640 Kevin Mako: Okay, this didn't work. Like, how can I become more creative to get in front of the person? 175 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:57,680 Kevin Mako: This is really huge because you wouldn't believe how many people are afraid of failure and you've got to make friends and failure your friend. 176 00:20:57,940 --> 00:21:02,480 Kevin Mako: Those are the stepping stones to get where you want to be. That's such powerful mindset. 177 00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:06,620 Kevin Mako: And of course, that comes back around full circle to what we were talking to originally with people. 178 00:21:06,620 --> 00:21:16,080 Kevin Mako: If you're looking to attract people who are good communicators, who are positive, who are encouraging each other, who are encouraging discovery through failure, then 179 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,100 Kevin Mako: that is a big part, particularly in a hardware startup. 180 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:25,700 Karin Lindner: And it really doesn't matter if it's your part-time accountant that you've hired all the way through to your creative industrial designer. 181 00:21:25,820 --> 00:21:35,240 Karin Lindner: All of them need to have this kind of theory of improvement, perpetual growth, learning through failure, finding opportunities, finding the solutions, as 182 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,860 Karin Lindner: opposed to dwelling on either the past or on the negatives. 183 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:45,740 Karin Lindner: And through that, if you have that collaboratively as a team, that'll exponentially accelerate everything from your development cycle to your marketing materials, to the 184 00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:54,240 Karin Lindner: growth of your financing, to the business, everything else that comes along with it. 100%. The people who tell me they make no mistakes, I always tell them, this shows 185 00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:00,980 Karin Lindner: me that you don't try anything new. Because if you try something new, it's impossible not to make any mistakes. 186 00:22:00,980 --> 00:22:09,860 Karin Lindner: I don't know about you, but I certainly cannot say I've never made any mistakes. It's just so important for all those startups that listen 187 00:22:09,860 --> 00:22:16,140 Karin Lindner: today that have big dreams. I actually want to share something which I think could be super relevant. 188 00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:21,200 Karin Lindner: I'm sure you have heard about smart goals, but have you heard about dumb goals? 189 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:30,960 Karin Lindner: So I think for those startups, they should consider to really get into dumb goals. So what does them stand for? 190 00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:32,320 Kevin Mako: Dream driven. 191 00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:39,220 Kevin Mako: The D stands for dream driven. driven. The U stands for uplifting. 192 00:22:39,780 --> 00:22:45,880 Kevin Mako: The M stands for method friendly and the B stands for behavior 193 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:54,520 Kevin Mako: driven. And to really think about those kind of things, I think every inventor, every startup, it starts with a dream. 194 00:22:55,060 --> 00:23:03,040 Kevin Mako: That's what they should keep in mind. The dreams to put them into reality that's so important, where would our world be without the dreamers, right? 195 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:09,000 Kevin Mako: Absolutely. You've got to find a North Star. because again, back to people, that's what's going to attract people and keep them there. 196 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:12,880 Kevin Mako: Your dream, your vision, that's what you're building. It doesn't matter that you're not there yet. 197 00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:17,460 Kevin Mako: I love the example you gave of the client where people say, and this happens all the time 198 00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:24,320 Kevin Mako: in hardware startups where they say, you know what, I'm never going to land that distributor. Their orders start at like a million dollars in order. I'm still small time. 199 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,680 Kevin Mako: I'm just getting off the ground, right? That is absolutely not the case because what you have is you have an innovative product. 200 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:36,080 Kevin Mako: You have something that they don't have on their shelves. You have something that's unique to the market. you have your own story that's behind it. 201 00:23:36,180 --> 00:23:43,080 Karin Lindner: You have some sort of unique branding, positioning. And of course, if you've done Karen's people job well, you've got a great team of people surrounding 202 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:50,440 Karin Lindner: you that's helping execute on this dream that you've got. So all of this wraps into a big bow to say, keep all of these initiatives front 203 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,880 Karin Lindner: and center in your thinking, especially in a hardware startup, because it's not just about designing the product. 204 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,360 Karin Lindner: There's all these bits and pieces that come in surrounding it to actually build that model, whether you're looking to license 205 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:08,260 Karin Lindner: a product, manufacture it yourself, manufacture it with a partner or anything else, all of these things. still matter to achieve whatever goal it is that you're shooting for. 206 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:18,300 Karin Lindner: Like one thing I also would like to stress, of course, I'm a trainer and a coach. But really, I think every person should work with a coach. 207 00:24:18,620 --> 00:24:26,140 Karin Lindner: Just think about sports teams, right? Think about Roger Federer as a coach. Why? He's one of the best tennis players in the world. 208 00:24:26,460 --> 00:24:34,080 Kevin Mako: Why does he need a coach, right? The same is so true for business people. And I have seen it over the years, more and more people really invest. 209 00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:41,400 Kevin Mako: in a coach, not only necessarily for skill development, it's all about mindset to help them to get 210 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:49,220 Kevin Mako: at the top of their game and to stay at the top of their game. As soon people start to build their team, it can become pretty lonely. 211 00:24:49,540 --> 00:24:59,240 Kevin Mako: If you have nobody to bounce ideas off, that's also something worth considering for every starter. It's worth the money, 100%. 212 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:08,440 Kevin Mako: I love the idea, you know, mentorship, coaching, support. It really is important. Things that seem fluffy are actually some of the most important things, 213 00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:13,560 Kevin Mako: the more successful of an entrepreneur that you talk to, the less that they will tell you that they know. 214 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,900 Kevin Mako: Now, of course, they're extremely knowledgeable in many things, but they will purposely surround 215 00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:22,580 Kevin Mako: themselves by people in each of their specific categories that are far more experienced than they are. 216 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:32,200 Kevin Mako: And that is what creates a truly inspiring leader, is somebody that can recognize that they are forever learning, that there is forever going to be field matter expertise that 217 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,240 Kevin Mako: is far outweighing 218 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,880 Karin Lindner: there is in a specific segment or category and then leaning on those people and listening to 219 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,840 Karin Lindner: them, assuming that you are not the expert on all of these different things and trying to weigh in 220 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:50,120 Karin Lindner: in a team framework, which is why I love so much about you telling us about the exercise of flipping the org chart on its head. Very powerful. 221 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:58,520 Karin Lindner: We always looked at it too. We call it kind of the flat org chart at our firm where everybody is a valuable team member. It doesn't matter what the seniority or the rank is. 222 00:25:58,580 --> 00:26:07,080 Kevin Mako: Everybody has unique insight that is very valuable if you're willing to open up your mind and listen to all those things and apply that forward to your business. 223 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:15,620 Kevin Mako: Yeah, every person is an expert in something. And even when I go in training sessions or with my coaching clients, I always learn something from my clients. 224 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:24,040 Kevin Mako: And if you have this mindset to be open, you can learn from every person. It doesn't matter if this is a shop floor employee or a customer, 225 00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:33,680 Kevin Mako: really developing those listening skills and learning. What are the challenges? And this will help anyone succeed in what they want to do. 226 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:42,860 Kevin Mako: I remember a really interesting stat about drivers. It was something along the lines of, and I don't remember the exact numbers, but 80% of drivers think 227 00:26:42,860 --> 00:26:45,400 Kevin Mako: they're the best of the best 20% of drivers. 228 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:54,960 Karin Lindner: It just goes to show you that it's human nature to assume that you are more of an expert than you think you are. So if you can recognize that 229 00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,840 Karin Lindner: in yourself and be humble about it, then that allows you to listen more and to really reflect 230 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,320 Karin Lindner: on the values of what other people are bringing to the table, which will, as you've seen in your research 231 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:14,520 Karin Lindner: and as you've seen dealing with all sorts of people, is incredibly valuable for the long-term performance of your product. And we're talking financially. What seemed like somewhat 232 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:20,540 Karin Lindner: spiritual or fluffy concepts really trickle down to the end of the day to more successful companies in general. 233 00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:30,440 Kevin Mako: Oftentimes we are legends in our own mind, right? And that's what we have to remember, to step back, to reflect a little bit, not to doubt yourself. 234 00:27:30,540 --> 00:27:33,640 Karin Lindner: There's a big difference between self-doubt and reflection. 235 00:27:34,140 --> 00:27:42,540 Kevin Mako: Self-doubt is not good, but reflection is so important. Every time when I work with someone, I think about what could I have done 236 00:27:42,540 --> 00:27:51,980 Kevin Mako: better? And I'm sure when I get off the call with you today, I said, I should have said this, I should have said that. But those reflection moments are critically. 237 00:27:51,980 --> 00:27:59,900 Kevin Mako: It's important not to beat yourself up over it. When you you don't do something, just learn from it. Karen, much appreciated for you being on the show. 238 00:28:00,380 --> 00:28:07,500 Kevin Mako: And for anyone that wants to learn more about these topics, check out her book, for sure. You can buy it pretty much anywhere at this point. I've seen it all over the place. 239 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,700 Kevin Mako: Yeah, it's on Amazon. It's also translated now into Spanish. That's great. 240 00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:16,080 Kevin Mako: Karen, thanks again for being on the show. Much appreciated. Thank you so much, Kevin. 241 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:24,920 Narrator: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast, the show that teaches you what it really takes to bring your product to market. 242 00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:34,480 Narrator: and turn it into a big success. This podcast series is brought to you by Mako Design + Invent, the original and leading firm in North America 243 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:42,680 Narrator: to provide global caliber in-to-in physical consumer product development to startups, inventors, and small product business clients. 244 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:51,680 Narrator: If you're looking for product development help on your invention, head over to MakoDesign.com. That's M-A-K-O Design dot com. 245 00:28:51,740 --> 00:28:59,960 Narrator: For a free consultation from one of Mako-design's 4-4. Design Studios from coast to coast. Thanks for listening and see you next time.