Dr Renee White: [00:00:00] Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales.

I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to the Science of Motherhood. This episode is proudly supported by Tassie Mums. Imagine not having warm clothes in winter and it is, it's definitely cooling down here in Hobart already. I know it's like mid-April, and I tell you what, I am already putting my electric blanket on before I jump into bed.

But just imagine that, imagine you don't have any warm clothes, you don't even have [00:01:00] like the basics, like a safe cot to sleep in for your Bubba. That is the reality for too many kids right now in Tasmania. But Tassie Mums are definitely changing that, and this month they have got their Tassie Mums Coats for Kids 2025 campaign going, and their whole philosophy is let's spread warmth together.

Now this winter, they are hopefully rallying together to collect a thousand coats for disadvantaged kids across Tasmania. So from the 1st of April through to the 16th of May, your support can help ensure that every child stays cozy and warm. I have gone through our wardrobes and we have found at least four coats that do not fit my daughter anymore, and I am bundling them up and I am popping them into a garbage [00:02:00] bag. And I'm gonna take them to our local Tassie Mums, uh, drop-off location in Sandy Bay. So you can do that as well. Get your school, your business, or your club involved. It's easy to join the cause. You can donate new or gently used warm coats, jackets, vests, and rain coats.

We have got a selection of those. We even have like a, a full kind of kit that my daughter wore only once to a real kind of messy play outdoor mudslide thing, which is so it's super brightly colored. I cannot wait to pass that on to another child in need. Now there are some parameters. The items must be clean, stain free, and in excellent conditions.

So you know, all with working zippers and empty pockets. So if you have got some jackets that your kids are no longer using, [00:03:00] that are in excellent condition, then you can drop off at a number of different locations. They've got them at Bellreve, Cambridge, Devonport Kingston, Sandy Bay, Lauderdale, Launceston, Lena Valley, and all Coles stores in Tasmania.

Um, if you wanna get those exact locations, head over to their Instagram, which is Tassie_Mums, and you can DM them there to get the exact location of those drop off points. Or you can just click their Instagram through the, uh, in the show notes section here. So let's all get together, let's make a difference, help spread the word to other friends and families that we are gonna be supporting the coats for kids for Tassie Mums this year.

Alright, let's dive into today's episode. Hello, [00:04:00] and welcome to episode 170 I'm your host, Dr. Renee White, thanks so much for joining me again this week at the Science of Motherhood. I am so, so excited to share with you today's guest, and I think this might be the first time we are doing this, we actually are doing a little giveaway as well in this podcast series.

So it is going to be, uh, the book of today's guest, which is super, super cool. Like, I, I read this book and I was like, oh man, this is a topic that I could just deep dive into. It's, it, it is, it's, it's kind of biography memoir type thing, but it is, um, around midwifery and birth and, you know, essentially. The, the life and stories of this [00:05:00] gorgeous author, Oceane Campbell, who we've got on the podcast today.

If you would like to enter, um, the giveaway head over to our Instagram, which you will see the link in the show notes. But for all those playing at home, you can just head over to our Insta account, which is fill your cup all one word underscore, fillyourcup_ uh, make sure you hit a follow and then you can see in at the post it says Giveaway Giveaway.

And there's a beautiful picture of the book just follow the instructions in the post and you can enter the draw to, to receive, uh, this book, which is super, super cool. Now I'm gonna tell you a little bit about Oceane. Her book was, it, it like, and this very rarely happens, and I'm not blowing [00:06:00] smoke, okay people. But I opened it up and from the first page I was like, hooked totally and utterly hooked. So Oceane is, uh, amazing, proud and passionate midwife. Um, this is not her first book. She's already authored another book which she wrote, um, alongside her mum. She's a working, living and mothering or her three children, uh, in Newcastle.

She has just a beautiful way of writing, which I love. Like it's, it's that style where, and I I did say to her, are you gonna record the audio of this? I, I, I could hear her voice in it, like, and I hadn't even spoken to her before, like, I think. Do you know how there's just some people where you're like, yeah, this person can really write Well, that's exactly what she was, and I love the fact that it was, it was storytelling the whole [00:07:00] time.

It was about her journey, um, to becoming a midwife, her student days, you know, her becoming a mother and I guess, you know, really finding her feet in midwifery practice. What I find super interesting, and we actually talk about this in the podcast, is the fact that she completed a psychology degree before she became a midwife and I think that that has had a really big impact on her becoming an excellent midwife. I think she is very, uh, in tune with human behavior and subtle, subtle and nuanced kind of behaviors, particularly in that birthing space. So, yeah, I, I definitely picked that up along the way with the storytelling. In, in the book, in, in this discussion, we talk about home births, we talk about birth trauma.

So [00:08:00] please, if this is a triggering topic for you, you know, proceed with caution. You know, if you're not in a good space, then, then maybe leave it for another day. We, of course will have some helplines in our show notes if anyone needs to talk to anyone about your experience or have a bit of a debrief with others.

But we also talk about, you know, the life and career of, of being a midwife and, you know. What, what advice you would give for those, considering that as a career. Um, I'm gonna stop rambling. I really want you to listen to this. I think it's amazing and if you love it, please share it with other people. Uh, hit us up with a review. We love five star reviews. It gives us great awareness and um, you know, knowledge is power. Alright, here is Oceane Campbell.

Hello and welcome to the podcast Oceane Campbell. How are [00:09:00] you?

Oceane Campbell: I'm well, thank you so much for having me.

Dr Renee White: Oh, my pleasure. Now, uh, the listeners would've heard from the introduction that we are having a chat today, specifically around your book, your new book, 'cause you're already an author. Um, and for all those playing at home who can actually see Labor of Love, which can I just first say. This is such a gorgeous, like, artistry on the front, like I, I know like don't judge a book by its cover, but I'm judging because it's bloody beautiful. Like, do you have a hand in like selecting the artwork on the front? I always like to know this from authors.

Oceane Campbell: So yes and no early on in the piece, they ask you for any covers that you like, anything you don't like, any, um, imagery you have already formed in your head. But I'm someone who likes to just give jobs to the people who do them best.

Dr Renee White: Yes.

Oceane Campbell: And I'm not an artist and I'm very accepting that, you know, along the whole editing [00:10:00] process. I'm like, no, no, that's, that's you guys. That's fine. I'll write the book, but you guys can decide.

Dr Renee White: Happy to outsource.

Oceane Campbell: That's right. I did have a number of photos that I sent them that was around midwives and women. Yeah. Close. Yeah. And there were photos from my own births, but there were just images that, for me, and captured exactly what this book is about and what the midwife relationship should be like.

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: And then there was a few other books that I loved the cover of, just in terms of the colors or whatever. Mm-hmm. And then amazingly, this is what magically came back. And I, like you said, thank you. I absolutely love it. It's really,

Dr Renee White: it's gorgeous.

Oceane Campbell: It's shows yeah such a beautiful dance and comfort and love and

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: Support between these two yeah.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, tell the listeners, let's just start as a foundation, a little bit more about you and, and a little bit about your career, and then we're kind of gonna dive into birth and a few other topics that you've raised in the book. But [00:11:00] yeah, let us know who you are.

Oceane Campbell: Sure. Um, I'm now in my forties, which is a bit wild to say, coming into my own coming of age, maybe even.

Dr Renee White: Welcome to the club.

Oceane Campbell: Thank you. You, I've had, I've had what some people say, an interesting life. Lots of, lots of change and turmoil and adventure and fun. I grew up very nomadic with my family around Australia. We were homeless, living in a tent, living in a caravan. My mum had three children. We were all born at home. Mm-hmm and I grew up hearing those stories and living a very, a very free and adventurous life, we settled in the bush, I did, um, lots of, you know, fun, wild, independent things from a very young age. Mm-hmm. And I went through school and uni. I studied psychology first, which was sort of an interesting choice because I'd always wanted to be a midwife, but at the time there was no direct entry midwifery.

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: And I knew already in my [00:12:00] head that for me, being a midwife was a different job to being a nurse. And I didn't want to be a nurse. I wanted to be a midwife. And anyway, I went down this other path. Um, I traveled, I moved, I did all sorts of different jobs, and then I went on a hike with my mum and which was the thing that we did. It was actually where I finished my first book, which is a, a conversation between my mum and I um, and that book finished with us going on this hike.

And actually this book sort of starts there because I had this, two weeks of reflection time on the Lara Pinta Trail in Central Australia and that's just a beautiful place to make big life decisions. Mm-hmm. Because the universe feels enormous and expansive and you feel connected to sort of everyone and everything. But also you are on your own on this hike, you know, you don't come across many people. Mm-hmm. Anyway, I was really, I think for the first time in many, many years, able to really just tune into [00:13:00] myself.

Mm. And ignore the chatter and the expectations and the fears around, you know, what a career should look like. And I came out of that hike, deciding to go sign up to do a Bachelor of midwifery. That was, um, about 12, 13 years ago now. I went, signed up and a few months later I was on my way and I just have not looked back since. It has been the most glorious and incredible career change, and I have just embraced it. It's a, it's a real calling, I think, to be a midwife.

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: And so lots, lots has changed in my life. I, I sort of identify so strongly with this profession now.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. It's interesting how you talk about, um. Going out in nature and going on this hike, and I ha if you're happy for me to share, I recently, so I've lived in Tasmania for four years now, and mid last year, I thought to myself, you know what? I feel like a bit of a [00:14:00] fraud like I haven't done any serious hiking here in Tasmania, and we've got such beautiful, you know, bushland around us. And I ended up join joining a hiking group and we've been training for the past three months for this big two night overnight hike at the walls of Jerusalem. I don't know if you've

Oceane Campbell: Oh yeah.

Dr Renee White: Done that.

Oceane Campbell: I haven't done it, but I know of it yeah.

Dr Renee White: Yeah, yeah. And. It was everyone keep, like was everyone, when I got back was like, oh my God, how did you go? And you know, how heavy was your pack? And you know, did you go okay? Like, you know, in your tent and camping and all the rest of it. And it was really interesting because, I mean, first of all, I was so cooked like afterwards, you know, you are out of range, which was amazing. Like you have no access to tech or whatever it is on your phone. Which for someone like myself who runs a business off their phone was a little bit daunting, but also very liberating at the same [00:15:00] time.

And it took me like a day and a half to actually get back onto my phone when I got back. But the interesting thing was that when you are, and this is similar to like what you were saying, when you're out there, it's just silence like you are, I was walking with four other women. But you're so focused on where you're gonna put your foot next that we, there was a bit of conversation, but you're in your head the whole time and it's this beautiful time, as you say, for reflection and possibly to make some big life choices.

I mean, I didn't make a huge life choice. I was like, when I get back, I'm definitely getting a new tattoo, which I did on Monday. Um, I didn't, I didn't change my career, but like, I totally get it. When you say, you know, you put yourself in nature, it's something like, it is, it's medicine, I think um,

Oceane Campbell: It is, and I had, you know, the, the Lancaster trail, I think I, it was 12 or 13 days of nonstop [00:16:00] hiking, no technology. So it's like that's a lot of space to make some big decisions.

Dr Renee White: Yes, it is. I don't know about you, but I like talking about taking tech away from you. I have all of my best ideas come to me when I'm in the shower. No tech, no one around me and I just like stand there. Actually, occasionally my husband will like yell out and be like, what are you doing in there? And I'm just like

Oceane Campbell: Having great ideas leave me alone.

Dr Renee White: I'm having great ideas. Leave me alone. I need to like, almost have like a whiteboard in the, in the bathroom to kind of jot those down. Oh my goodness. Um, I, I wanna dive into a few things that I picked up along the way whilst reading this book. Um, my first question to you is, um, you talk about how when you were very young, you thought, you know, the majority of births were at home, but you know, you kind of dive into this midwifery course and you are astounded [00:17:00] to learn that like only 3% actually happen at home. I'd love to know, what do you think the shift was like, why do you think more women are birthing at hospitals? Because there was a time when we weren't right? There was a time when we were still all birthing at home.

Oceane Campbell: Yeah. I mean, there's been so many shifts, haven't there?

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: The sort of long, long, long, long ago where it was lay midwives, it was the, the mothers, the aunties in the community helping for home birth. Mm-hmm. Then, I mean, other people are much better at the, the historics of this than me, but then there was a shift which brought it into the hospital and I think a large part of that was around control and the medical establishment, which back then was old white men who wanted power and control and wanted to be right and to, to be in charge of the situation.

I think then there was [00:18:00] a little bit of a shift back out of the hospital with, sort of the seventies hippie movement, people wanting to do things differently, anti-establishmentism, just, um, but it never really grasped back control of birth into the community. I think there was, um, a great movement towards private midwifery.

Private midwifery was accepted. It was a safe, um, space, and there was great collaboration between local GPs and midwives. So my mum had her first two babies in South Australia. She had a private midwife who worked with a GP and if there were two, you know, when my mum went into labor with her first, there was, um, another woman giving birth and the midwife and the GP said, oh, which you know, we'll, I'll go to one.

You go to the other, they sorted it out, the GP did a home birth. The midwife came to my mum and supported her. And then. I think that was happening [00:19:00] alongside still a big trend for hospital is, is best. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's around, I guess, that cultural shift of a hospital is safe, hospitals are good. Birth is not something to talk about or to see. There was a real shrouding around birth of that should be behind closed doors. Partners shouldn't be there. We shouldn't talk about it.

Dr Renee White: Yeah partners shouldn't be there. I've heard this, which like, like, I'm just like, what the heck?

Oceane Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that, that was, that was the, the, the common known trend for, for a long time. And obviously that has changed.

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: But I think there is still a really strong control for birth to be a medical event. Mm. Whereas my belief and, and I guess the, the midwifery philosophy generally is that birth is a spectrum of you know wellness in women and that some women do have medical [00:20:00] complications. Additional risks, particularly of course, our demographics have changed. The age that we're birthing has changed. There's been, you know, lots of changes. But still at its heart it is a normal physiological process that our bodies have done for eons and will continue to do mm and the perspective from, from the sort of midwifery philosophy is it's a normal, well and healthy event until sort of proven otherwise.

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: And then that's when we need the systems in place to transfer, to get extra help to consult with doctors to get that backup of the medical model. Mm-hmm. Um, whereas I, I, I don't think that's the way that society necessarily sees it. I think the messaging is you leave your dignity at the door.

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: It's the biggest risk, you know, it's the, the scariest thing that you'll go through. It's the highest risk in your life. Mm-hmm. To you and your babies is birth, which the statistics just don't, don't support.

Dr Renee White: No, because the, I mean

Oceane Campbell: they [00:21:00] actually like,

Dr Renee White: is it, I'm trying to recall. It was, uh, part of, was it Hannah Darling who did the study, or like one of her, someone from her team that showed, was it her or Hazel Kele? I can't remember but one of them,

Oceane Campbell: they're both brilliant.

Dr Renee White: Yes. Both exceptional women who've um, been on the podcast, if you ha if PE people haven't listened to those, please go back and listen to those. But one of, I think one of them did that study and they showed that home births are as safe, if not safer. Uh, yes. Then, you know, being in the hospital, if you've got a quote unquote normal kind of tracking pregnancy

Oceane Campbell: and it sort of says if you are pure than the driven snow, like if you've got no risk factors, yeah. The evidence is really compelling. Yeah. And this is studies with 30, 40,000 plus even bigger ones overseas that show that when you've got a good system in place, which includes, you know. Not being too far from a hospital, good transfer, good collaboration. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and that you are well [00:22:00] and healthy.

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: That you need the criteria for being a well and healthy person with a, a, a well and healthy, you know, pregnancy, that it is actually safer because you're avoiding unnecessary intervention.

Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. Um, and I, I don't know about you, but as a, as a doula who was practicing in Melbourne at the time of Covid Lockdowns, now I wasn't a birth doula, but I was postpartum. So not at the complete cold face, but I was definitely, um, amongst it, shall we say. Mm-hmm. I definitely noticed a trend of, stuff the hospital, we're doing home births now. Like I just saw a huge uptick in that of women taking back control, as you say, because the policies kept changing week on week. And yes, you can have a partner, no, you can't have a partner. Yes you can, but they gotta do this and that, and da da and like, you know, jump through flaming hoops and what have you.

And a lot of women were just like, you know what, we're not doing that. I'm not gonna [00:23:00] bend to you. This is how I'm gonna do it. Um, did you see that in, in your practice as well? Like when you were during Covid? Lockdowns?

Oceane Campbell: Yeah, I did. I mean, firstly I experienced it myself. I was pregnant with, um. It was the bush fire, the summer, the black summer bush fires when I was in early pregnancy. Yeah. So I was like, oh, great. I'm, you know, ruining my baby by being out in this pollution and then straight into Covid

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: And baptism of fire. I know, right. And, um, I mean, I was working, so I was seeing that play out Mm. In, in the system and that uncertainty. And we did have also, I believe we had an increase in home birth. I can't, can't quote the statistics in my local area. Um, but I remember feeling that i'd, I was planning a home birth. My other two children had been born at home and I was feeling very confident that this would be no different and I had my team [00:24:00] from, you know, the moment I wee'd on that stick, I was like, yep. Call my midwife you in.

I remember feeling that anxiety of what if I need to transfer into the hospital? What if something happens? I, I can't be separated from my other kids for days. If, if I have a premature baby, if I have something goes slightly wrong mm-hmm. I'm still breastfeeding my toddler and covid rules will, will mean that she can't come in to see me. I haven't been separated from her for a night. I mean, I'd barely been separated for a night or two from my five-year-old at the time. Yeah. And I just thought, what, how will I be able to have my village around me if I can't have this home birth? And it, it, it was worrying, it was hard and I, I saw it play out at work so many times.

I mean, I remember one story of a woman who'd had this, intense birth trauma with her first. Mm-hmm and she [00:25:00] arrived for her second and we were only allowing one support person and with her trauma history and, and her level of anxiety, she really wanted her mum and her partner there and the, the rules were the rules and it was a no.

And she ended up, the mother ended up being the one to stay for the birth and it was a beautiful, fast, lovely birth. She was absolutely beaming and, and for her it meant so much to have this, you know, reclaim this power in his birth.

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: But her husband missed it. Yeah. And I thought. How he also lived through that first birth trauma. Mm-hmm. He watched what his partner went through. He also had to muddle through the, the postnatal depression and the anxiety and, and everything that happened to that woman. Mm-hmm. And now he's not going to share in this moment because of bloody covid regulations.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. [00:26:00] It, it's, it was absolute peace. I, I wanna talk about a, a bit about birth trauma for a minute because as something that, um, and I wanna know your thoughts on this 'cause as I was reading the book, I thought, Ooh, is this the moment in her brain? I'm always, I'm always curious to know, like the catalyst for people, like what was the catalyst for you? So, um. So you and, and correct me if fact, check me on this, 'cause like, um, I read your book a a bit time ago, but so your, like, first witness to birth was your good friend Anne, who had a home birth.

Yeah. And that was for her third, right? Yeah. And so she had experienced some trauma with her previous two, which were in a hospital setting. And so she was like, okay, I am gonna go for the home birth. My question to you is, you know that moment, this is your [00:27:00] first kind of imprint in your brain of visualising birth, and you see this as a very, you know, physiological nor quote unquote normal birth. I'm kind of curious on, on one side you're like, okay, this is the imprint, this is what we are aiming for, for everyone. But then also were, you kind of thinking. Hold on a minute. Why isn't everyone doing this? Like this is like, this is an awesome way to birth. Like I'd love to know your thoughts. Is that something that you've kind of thought about in your brain because like you do work in a hospital setting? Yeah. Um, and I, I don't know, like in my brain I was just like, is this the moment where Oceane was just like, yeah, why aren't we all just doing this?

Oceane Campbell: I mean, yes, but I already had that in my head because of my mum's stories.

Dr Renee White: Right, right.

Oceane Campbell: So my mum used to tell us our birth story every birthday and, and you know, it was so lovely, these fast normal home births with [00:28:00] midwives. And so I had this image that that's how.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. That's just how we do it.

Oceane Campbell: It's lovely and there's a fire, you know, crackling in the corner and the older siblings can kind of wander in and out and like, and then you just tuck up in bed with your new baby and call it a day and like, yeah. So of course everyone would want to do that and I had this very positive image. Mm. Seeing it in real life because it, it was different and I was jaw dropped, eyes wide open. Mm-hmm. Like just, I was absolutely in awe. And I still remember that, that moment of catching this glimpse of this baby's head and this like, what is that? Like what is about to happen?

And it all happened so quickly that you're like, what, what did just happen? Can we re project?

Dr Renee White: Yeah. I just wanna rewind to put that in slowmo now. Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: Yes. But in some ways what the, the big penny dropping sort of happened was then a little bit later when I had my first hospital birth where I was [00:29:00] participating, um, as a student midwife. And, and yes, our training happens is that you follow a number of women from, you know, through their pregnancy, you're on call for their birth mm-hmm and then you, you stay with them for a few weeks after, and my first continuity of cares, um, called woman had, um, you know, hospital birth and what was really eyeopening for me was she'd had twins previously with a cesarean.

She had a very complicated psychosocial history, a lot of, um, yeah, a lot of factors really playing into her body and how she was going to feel with all the interventions and everything. Mm-hmm. And I really felt for her watching that all play out. Um, and then she had a vacuum birth, so ventouse or vacuum, which is the little suction cap, but then the doctor pulls on and the woman pushes and, and Anne had had a vacuum with her first, and she'd felt pressured and forced into it, and like it was [00:30:00] done without proper consent. Mm-hmm. And that it wasn't necess, you know, really necessary. And that had caused, and trauma, birth trauma. And then for this woman, this, this, you know, baby's in distress and it's not coming quick enough and she's had a previous cesarean.

There's, you know, more anxiety about how long it can go for. Mm-hmm. So the doctor comes in and does this ventouse and I'm just, you know, sort of standing in the corner watching this clanging and bright lights and just feels worlds apart from Anne's home birth. And the baby finally comes out and, and I just remember seeing in the woman's face this, you, it wasn't that elation and victory. It wasn't, it was like a relief and like, thank god that's done. Yeah. And for her, the, the prize was a ventouse was that the baby was out and it was all over and done with. Yeah. And that was that was her moment of that was the best that was going to be for her. Yeah. And for her, that was important. She really [00:31:00] wanted to avoid a cesarean because she had young twins, and if she hadn't been able to drive, she lived rurally.

She was under enormous amount of financial pressure in her life and stressful relationships. Mm-hmm. So for her to be able to drive and, and get up the next day and, and not have a cesarean wound affecting her mm-hmm was, was really important. So for her, there was a, a, a victory in her birth, but that, I mean, it taught me how different it can all be. Yeah. It taught me that what one person's trauma might not be somebody else's.

Dr Renee White: Yes. Yep.

Oceane Campbell: Um, it taught me that you can have trauma from other parts of your life that can play a role in birth. Mm-hmm. Or birth can be the trauma. Like for Anne, it was the, the trauma history from birth that was mm-hmm. Impacting her the most. This woman, it was her other life trauma that was impacting on, on her and, and what mattered to her. But I, I look at those two birth and of course I did [00:32:00] think, well, I, I want option A.

Dr Renee White: Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: Like I, um, but it also made me realize that it is so complex mm-hmm. And that there is no right or wrong and that for this woman, you know, a ventouse was, was not going to be a trauma for her. Yeah. Other things might be Yeah. But that was actually not, and that I have to not judge what I think looks better, quote unquote. Yeah. Or what looks nicer and whatever yeah from my opinion and put that onto the women I care for.

Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really great point. Um, 'cause uh, we have spoken about birth trauma previously on the podcast, and it's such an important thing to note that what is someone else's trauma may not be you know, another person's trauma. Yeah. In the sense,

Oceane Campbell: yeah. And it's hard, it's hard not to judge that. It's hard not to say that, you know, having a cesarean is a trauma for one [00:33:00] and not for another. Mm-hmm. And I mean, that's the other, you know, thing I really learned is that they can be really positive, empowering cesareans. Yes. And those women,

Dr Renee White: I'm one of them.

Oceane Campbell: Yeah, that's right. And I, I have actually heard you, you know, talk on your podcast about that and it's really lovely to hear. Yeah. And it's really important for other women to hear those positive stories. Yeah. So that it's not a one size fits all. This is a good birth. That's a bad birth. If you had an epi epidural, you did it wrong. If you did it drug free, you get a special award at the end. Yeah. Like none of that, you know,

Dr Renee White: that doesn't exist, ladies

Oceane Campbell: doesn't exist. But, you know, I say that to women. I, it's, you know, when they look at me with that sort of question of like, is it okay to have an epidural? Or what do you think? And it's like, it's not my body. Mm-hmm. I, I want you to make an informed decision. I want you to know what the implications of your decision are. Yeah. But at the end of the day, I want you to feel, you know, like you can do whatever feels best for you because you have to go home and mother this baby, you have to remember your birth.

Dr Renee White: [00:34:00] Yeah.

Oceane Campbell: And own it in your body.

Dr Renee White: Absolutely.

Oceane Campbell: You know, there's yeah there's no right or wrong.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. Um, yeah. A hundred percent. Um, I'm curious to know, so in the book you have this amazing mentor, Val. Um, I feel like, I feel like if when people read the book, I think everyone will go, yeah that's, they'll think of their Val in their, in their brain. I always, I'm like, yeah, yeah. Got you on that one. And like, I, I, I, I don't want it to be a downer, but you talk about with Val, and this is a conversation I think you have early on in your student days, you said to her, why don't doctors trust midwives? And she mentions the book Birth Wars and I was

Oceane Campbell: That's an amazing book,

Dr Renee White: I was wondering, uh, I was wondering if you'd be able to kind of give us a little synopsis of that and maybe, maybe talk about what your experiences have been [00:35:00] along the way with different doctors 'cause you know, we are not, I don't wanna paint like a thick brush and be like, all doctors are crap. And you know, they don't listen to midwives and, but there, but there does seem to be some instances where it's kind of like, can we just take our foot off the gas and just like listen to women and their bodies? Like there was that Yeah. And there was that one example, and I forget who it was. Was it one of your midwifery colleagues and she was in labor and I think you weren't, what was it? You weren't sure if you were gonna make it and you kind of walked in and I think a doctor had said, I'm gonna go. Oh, was it Ellie? Is your friend Ellie, you came in and you were like, hold on a minute. She just needs to

Oceane Campbell: Oh, Ellie was birthing.

Dr Renee White: Yes.

Oceane Campbell: She just needs to change position. She was having second baby to change positions. Yes. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, the doctor had walked out to get a vacuum. Second. That's right. Second baby. I was like, this can't be right. You've, you've birthed a baby without [00:36:00] assistance at home. Yes. This second baby.

Dr Renee White: That's right.

Oceane Campbell: Couldn't get a private midwife. So you're here in the hospital and

Dr Renee White: That's right.

Oceane Campbell: I get the baby's heart rate was showing big signs of distress. And there was, yeah, lots happening. But it was that thing of, wait a minute.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. And, and I think this is one of the things that I really am in quite awe of, and I think this is, maybe this is just my, like, stream of consciousness as I was like reading. I, I have this, um, like thought process. Like you've got this psychology background, I think you are very in tune with human behavior. And I think this is what amazing like superhero qualities of like really excellent midwives. You watch and you're in awe, like you were talking about with Anne's birth, how the two midwives were sitting there just knitting and they would like raise the head. They'd be watching and you know, go back to knitting.

And it's this, you are watching the changes in human behavior as to where they're at in their birth and you noticed with [00:37:00] Ellie, you were like, she's trying to like do this particular move and she just needs help and you are like, right, that's it. Get her up. Look, I did get her on. We're gonna hold her whatever and bang baby comes out, you're like, tadaaa, look what we've done. You know? And I was like, so in awe of that because, um, I don't know. I think back to. I think back to when I was pregnant and my brain spiraling and me going, I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do this and to me, I wonder if it would've been completely different if I had like a private midwife who knew me, who knew my body, who trusted that I could do it and would be like, you know, my cheerleader. But like, let's, let's go back to my initial question.

Oceane Campbell: Yeah. So birth wars. Um, so it, it's a real thing. The, the sort of divide between midwives and doctors has existed. This book Birth Wars that we're talking about, which is a fabulous read [00:38:00] written by a journalist from memory mm-hmm and she was involved in a couple of big inquiries where there were disastrous outcomes mm-hmm and she was doing a deep dive to try and understand what the hell happened. One was definitely around a stillbirth, I can't remember the details, but it was maybe a woman with preeclampsia and she was, there was signs that things were going not right and then she was going to the hospital, but then, you know, it was not going well.

And, and then there was, you know, the most heartbreaking outcome from that. And what she noticed this author was that there was a bunch of, um, stories and, and really adverse outcomes that when you looked back at the root cause analysis, it was actually a turf war between midwives and doctors right creating the problem. And she very much didn't take sides, which I really admired her for in the book. Yeah. Because it would've been very easy to, to stick on on one side [00:39:00] and say, you know, midwives are. Doing, you know, are doing it wrong or, or doctors are other baddies. Mm. But she really just sat back and said, actually what the issue is, is that there's this turf war.

Mm. And that midwives and doctors aren't working well together, aren't accepting that they each have responsibility over a different part of a woman's care and when things are well and healthy, then that is actually the midwives remit to, to make those decisions and provide that care. And that we then need to recognise and be clinically watchful, which is like those beautiful midwives at home.

Mm-hmm. Be clinically watchful enough to know when things are starting to not go right and to get input and, and refer or, or consult with our doctor colleagues. Mm-hmm. And that is so important for both ways. And then the turf war on the other side is doctors wanting control saying, you know, we need to be there.

We need to own this. I actually want to get to my golf game at 5:00 PM so I'm [00:40:00] going to say that this is happening. Mm. Or whatever it is and, and it's both sides have, have let women down at at times. Um, thankfully, you know, it's, it's not the majority of the time, but that, that is what's happened in the past.

I remember when I started my training, there was a real, a real dialogue around that. And I think it was at a time, and this is sort of 10, 12 years ago, where there wasn't always a really respectful relationship between doctors and midwives. It absolutely existed a lot and there were midwives who spoke really highly of doctors, and doctors who spoke really highly of midwives. And there was beautiful examples of, of how it worked really well sometimes. Mm-hmm. But there was also an element of, you know, hey, this is my space, butt out of it. Yeah. And vice versa. And then, and then doctors not trusting midwives in return and it does come down to trust. I think that's, that's one of the things that [00:41:00] I personally learned over the course of, of writing this book.

But just, you know, my, my 10, 12 years as a midwife, that, and I noticed that changing that when I was junior, you could sense the, the mistrust. Mm-hmm. And you felt like your toes were being stepped on because you hadn't proven yourself. Yeah. And so you felt like doctors wouldn't trust you to do a vaginal examination even though I'd been in the room for eight hours. Yeah. And I had the relationship, the doctors would sort of come in and say, ah, I'm actually just going to do it and it's a mistrust of of me that mm-hmm. Was what I felt. Mm-hmm. But also, at the end of the day, it's actually the woman who then has a stranger coming in and maybe repeating a vaginal examination or, and it's hard because sometimes I would get things wrong.

Mm-hmm. Just like sometimes a, a doctor will as well. Mm-hmm. Well, sometimes things change and we actually know from the evidence that vaginal examinations don't predict anything and are not a very good tool to use to be making decisions anyway, [00:42:00] um, in lots of situations. But yeah, those, those moments where, you know, you'd get the knock on the door, you'd feel questioned about your decisions. Mm-hmm. You'd feel overridden. So, you know, a woman would've talked to you about their pain relief preferences, and the woman has, you know, would've chosen whatever and a doctor would step in and say, I think you should do this, I think you need an epidural, I think you, you know, and that, that friction that, that then causes where you don't feel like you're on the same page.

Mm-hmm. I've noticed. There were those stories in the beginning and, and I've had stories where it's been really tense and there's been real, you know, sort of harsh disagreements and, and thankfully outside of the room, you, you, um, you know, obviously really important that you don't bring that into the woman's birthing space.

But there were examples of that, there were examples where I've had to physically stand between a doctor and woman and say, she's saying, no, you [00:43:00] cannot cut to the episiotomy. Mm. To someone who is saying, no. Yeah. We don't have consent. And those stories scar you. Yeah. They obviously are awful for the woman, but they scar the health provider as well, because you feel like you're in a battleground then. Yeah. And that, you know, that contributes to that, that turf war. Mm-hmm. But what I have noticed is, particularly since the birth trauma inquiry. Also since I've, I've become more confident and I've, I've gotten more trust, I've become friends with doctors, I've spoken more openly and vulner, like more vulnerably with them, I guess.

Mm-hmm. To talk through these things. I've realised how much better that is, and I don't, I don't feel like it's a turf war anymore. Yeah. I feel like, just like any professional relationship, there are moments of disagreement. There are [00:44:00] moments where there isn't the respect that I would like mm-hmm both ways. And I'm sure that some of the doctors feel like that too. And there are certainly issues that come up that are purely about doctor versus midwife stuff, but it is so much rarer. There is so much more appreciation and understanding both ways. I think and I mean, I, I think you, you might notice it as you sort of read the book, is that there is a real shift in terms of feeling like we are working together and that we are actually on the same team.

Yeah. And I think fundamentally most midwives and doctors who work in, in the birth space, obstetricians are there for the same reason. Yeah. But they want to do the right thing. They want to do the best thing by the woman and the baby. I think we just sometimes have a different philosophy mm-hmm about what the best thing is and how to interpret that. Yeah. And I [00:45:00] think there's, you know, you can look at it very sort of holistically that there is psychological, emotional, physical needs, both of the woman and the baby. I think the very sort of staunch feminist in me says the woman needs to matter more than anyone else. Yeah. And that, I mean, that's, you know, goes into like termination laws and all that sort of stuff and, and the, the freedom that women should have, the autonomy they should have over their bodies to make decisions about their pregnancy.

That means that if they don't want an intervention that might put their baby at a risk, do they have the fundamental right to do that? Yeah. I think another perspective is we just want a healthy, you know, a a a baby that's alive and a mother that's alive at the end of that. Mm-hmm. And when, when there is that perspective and the sort of holistic perspective, there will be a clash. Yeah. And there will be a turf war. Yeah. Because one person will say, well, if we just want a healthy, or, [00:46:00] you know, not even healthy, an alive baby and an alive mum, then yes, let's do this intervention. Let's wheel her around the corner for a cesarean mm-hmm because we can control that environment. Yeah.

Nevermind if, if she dies of an infection later or her next pregnancy has massive complications because of that cesarean, that's future. Yeah. That's a future worry won't count in this statistic that says, look at the end of, you know, by five o'clock we had a mum that was alive and a baby that was alive. And that's a real fear perspective because when you actually look at the statistics, we actually know that a cesarean birth is not actually the safest thing medically for a lot of women.

Dr Renee White: Yeah, yeah.

Oceane Campbell: Of course there are situations it is. Mm-hmm. But yes, I think there's sometimes that, that continued difference in philosophy that will mean there will always be some tension between health professionals who work in this space, and sometimes it's between two midwives or two doctors, or a midwife and a doctor. Yeah.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah. I I, I would love [00:47:00] to, uh, kind of just shift gears a second and, and look at it from the perspective of mums, and we've touched on this already, you know, birth trauma here in Australia. One in three women, um, is the test, is the statistic. If you were to give some advice, recommendations around, you know, what can birthing mothers do in order to mitigate against this

Oceane Campbell: such an easy one, get a known midwife, continuity of care is the gold standard. Mm-hmm. For so many different factors. Mm-hmm. It helps prevent preterm births and reduces all sorts of issues and increases all sorts of good things. So yeah, continuity of care and that, you know, lots of, um, lots of services offer that at the hospital, so it can still be a publicly funded option. Yeah. Obviously you can also access that through [00:48:00] private midwifery, but that is cost prohibitive for some, for some people. Yeah. It's a, an out-of-pocket expense. If you don't have continuity of care at your local service, write a really strongly worded letter to your local politician mm-hmm to advocate for, for it to be set up.

And then of course, that doesn't always help you in the immediate, you know, short term when you're already pregnant. Mm-hmm. But then there are other things you can do, like finding a supportive doula. Student midwives are great to have a, a familiar face and they won't be providing the clinical, you know, skill of, of a, a senior midwife but they absolutely provide incredible supportive care.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah. Abso, that's a, that's a great, that's a great take. Yeah. Student, uh, midwives I think are absolutely amazing. It's interesting though, 'cause like, I don't know what the statistic is, is it like, only is it 18% of [00:49:00] women can access a continuity of care midwifery group here in Australia. Like, I, I recall it being super low.

Oceane Campbell: Yeah. I dunno the statistic, but it is low.

Dr Renee White: It's incredibly frustrating though. Like, knowing

Oceane Campbell: it's incredibly frustrating.

Dr Renee White: That it's the gold standard. Like, are we not doing this guys?

Oceane Campbell: I, I think it Hannah Darlin says like, if this was a pill, it would, you know, the

Dr Renee White: Oh 100 percent

Oceane Campbell: pharmaceutical companies would be fighting over themselves to, to release it and Yep. Charge you a hundred bucks a pill. Yeah. But yes, because it, it is, it, it solves so many issues mm-hmm and provide such better results. And there are not enough services and not enough spaces in the service. You know, we have waiting lists, people are calling up for our group practice when they wee on that stick or when they, you know, think about it. And they're still not necessarily getting in and there's also a real gap of continuity of care for anyone other than low risk and so some, you, you generally have to be low risk and, and aiming for, [00:50:00] uh, spontaneous physiological birth.

Mm-hmm. And then sometimes there in some services, there's a continuity of care group practice for the really high risk. Mm-hmm. So for the triplets and the previous stillbirth at term and the really complicated medical, you know, I've had my heart replaced three times and I'm now pregnant women, which is amazing. But there's this huge gap in the middle of women who might have gestational diabetes or might have, you know, a sort of hormone, you know, thyroid issue or something that excludes them. I mean, thyroid actually, we sort of are accepting them now, but other things like that where they're then excluded from the low risk group practice. Mm-hmm. They're not unwell enough for the high risk group practice. Yeah. And they're sort of lumped together in, in mainstream care where they do see a different midwife every single time. Yeah. And [00:51:00] I mean, that's where the student midwife can, can be a great role there, but I think we, it, it would make such a big difference if we had more continuity of care.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. How does, like if someone's listening to this, how do you access a student midwife? Do you, do you kind of contact the hospital and say, Hey, this is something I would like to do?

Oceane Campbell: Yeah. So every union hospital works slightly differently. Mm-hmm. But generally at your first midwifery appointment, you can ask. Mm-hmm. And that they should know that midwife should know how to get you in contact. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes they, some hospitals literally have like a list mm-hmm. Of numbers and, and can sort of hand, they can write the woman's name down in a book and then the student midwife. Goes and looks and picks women who've got a due date that sort of works. Yeah. Sometimes it's, yeah, there's actually a student working there already in the clinic alongside a midwife or, yeah, there's all different ways, but definitely ask the, the midwife at, at your first appointment.

Dr Renee White: Okay, fantastic. Just before we wrap up and go into our rapid [00:52:00] fire, I've got one last question, um, which is, you know, given your experiences over this lifetime, uh, that you've had, if someone is listening and they're thinking about, you know, entering into a career of midwifery, what would be your advice to them? Any tips, any suggestions or advice along the way?

Oceane Campbell: I mean, if you're passionate about it, then do it. Yeah. It is hard. It is not like any other degree in terms of the clinical hours, the the being on call. So arm yourself for that. Mm-hmm. That it's gonna be a wild three years of your life where nothing's gonna feel very easy. Yeah. But, but it's, I mean, read my book. Yeah. 'cause that will give you such a, you know, a, a taste of what it's like. Yeah. I recently wrote an article for The Guardian about sort of a day in the life as you midwife like, this is what my day is like, [00:53:00] if that scares the crap out of you yeah.

Then, you know, maybe stop and, and have a bit of a think if, if reading the book, if you're like, oh, that sounds terrifying, then yeah stop and think, because it's not, it's not something to enter into lightheartedly, but the, the rewards mm-hmm are exponentially unimaginably wonderful. Mm-hmm. I. Love my work. I miss it when I'm not there for, I've had a week of annual leave and I'm busting for my 6:00 AM shift tomorrow. Mm-hmm. Because I just can't wait to see what's, what's there, what's waiting for me, will I get to, you know, what sort of birth I'll be part of. And if that, if hearing me talk like that makes your eyes glisten and, and makes you kind of itch to Google Bachelor of Midwifery mm-hmm. Then just do it. There's never a good time. Mm-hmm. We've got students who are doing it with little babies after babies before babies in the middle of babies, financially secure, financially not [00:54:00] young, old. We've got, you know, 50-year-old students and, and 18-year-old students. Lots of people will, will sort of stress about the time, like when is the right time.

Mm-hmm. It's a, it's a full on degree. Yeah. There is never going to be a perfect time. It's like having a child or moving house. There's never an easy time.

Dr Renee White: You just throw yourself in the deep end and swim.

Oceane Campbell: And there is, of course, there's lots of things you can do in terms of getting support and, and making sure that your village is like armed and ready to have your back. Mm-hmm. But if it's what you wanna do, it's amazing.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. Good advice. Good advice. My cousin has just, uh, just finished her nursing degree and this is her first kind of year in the hospitals and she's always talked to me about, you know, oh, I really, I think I wanna become a midwife though, and maybe I'll just give nursing like a go. But I can tell she's got the itch and every time we [00:55:00] see each other we talk about babies and I was like, yeah, Sarah, you're gonna have to do this, babe.

Oceane Campbell: Yeah, yeah. Well, well tell her to go get my book. Yes. And then she'll be signed up by the end of the year.

Dr Renee White: Yes, absolutely. Um, okay. We are gonna jump into our rapid fire. Are you ready? Okay. Uh, first question, what is your top tip for birthing mamas?

Oceane Campbell: Don't be scared to go get information. Telling yourself that, you know, I don't wanna plan anything in case it goes wrong, or things like that don't actually help. If you don't know where you want to go, how will you get there? Mm-hmm. I know that birth plans have a bit of a bad reputation, but at the end of the day. As long as, you know, you need to take away the, like rigidity or the anxiety or all those things around a birth plan. Yeah. But it is okay to dream. It is okay to get information. It is all right to, to write those down and to have an intention to [00:56:00] say, this is what matters to me this is what I want, don't, don't let people scare you off that.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. I love that. Actually. It's something we talk about internally and I think, um, in our doula village, but then I was talking to a, a mum that I'm gonna support and I was talking about, you know, the plan and stuff and I, and she's like, but I like, this is my first, I don't. I don't know, like, I don't know what I don't know. And I was like, exactly like, and it's not a straight road. I always, I always say it's like a game of snakes and ladders, like we've just gotta know what's happening here and then we might go down here and then we are going to use this tool and, but as long as we all know what the piece on the puzzle, you know, on the, on the board are. Yeah. And if we roll a six, what does that mean? You know, as long as we know those things, I think we're in good stead.

Oceane Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr Renee White: Did you have a go-to resource when you were pregnant or when you were a mum where you were [00:57:00] just like, you know what, this was amazing or, this really helped me and you know, it can be a book or a workshop or a quote or some people have even said poetry. Was there anything that kind of comes to mind or something that you pass on to other people?

Oceane Campbell: Um. The things that helped me the most were prioritising and I, I was really bad at doing it at first, and then I realised I really had to do it right at the end when I sort of was getting close to birth. And I wish I'd done it sooner is to just give yourself, whenever you can, however short or long it is a little moment to just stop and appreciate this amazing thing that you are part of, that you are growing this baby. And for me, I rediscovered it going for little walks when I was on mat leave and my toddler was at preschool and I'd have these two days where I could mm-hmm have a walk along the beach and just stopping [00:58:00] and feeling my belly and feeling the movements and just kind of doing a bit like self congratulations of Yeah look at this like, I'm pregnant, I'm growing a human being. Mm-hmm and just appreciating that, enjoying it. And I know pregnancy, like I was lucky in my pregnancy that I didn't have too many of the unpleasant symptoms. Mm-hmm. But just that, that stopping and appreciating meant the world to me.

Dr Renee White: Yeah. I love that. That's so, so good. Okay, we, this last question, we borrow this one from Brene Brown who I love. What do you keep on your bedside table?

Oceane Campbell: So, uh, I've actually got a yellow paper crown that my 4-year-old made me um, yesterday and I, she made me wear it this morning and I was making breakfast and then I forgot I had it on and I did school drop off and preschool drop off still wearing it. And just to explain, it's, it's made of about 30 [00:59:00] tiny pieces of yellow paper that she cut out. She's really into scissors at the moment. Yeah. And sticky taped each little bit together. About every inch or two uhhuh, there's like this sticky tape around. Yeah. And so that's the crown so that is now I, um, took it off 'cause I thought I'm probably gonna appear on this podcast with it still on my head at this point. That's,

Dr Renee White: I would've loved it. I would've been like queen Oceane

Oceane Campbell: I know I did feel quite special except, but I realised I'd been around town with it on my head anyway um, you have to laugh, but I do, I always have something that my kids have made me yeah. That, that, you know, will last a few months and then it will get replaced by another note or a drawing or something funny or quirky. I always have a very large pile of books. Mm-hmm. That I sometimes read and sometimes don't get through. Yeah. Um, and I always have a cup of cold tea that I've made the night before. Yeah. And I always like to drink most of my tea. And then I have this thing of, what if I wake up in the night really thirsty, so I just don't drink at all. Yeah. [01:00:00] But then inevitably in the morning, still half a cup of cold tea.

Dr Renee White: Okay. I have to ask, uh, books, what's, what's on this pile? Like, what, what do you, like if you had today, the rest of today to read a book, which one would you choose?

Oceane Campbell: I, the moment I've got Geraldine Brooks, the horse on my bedside table that the friend led me and I've been wanting to read, I also have in the Dreamhouse, I think it's called on my List. Mm-hmm and what else have I got on there at the moment? I have, I, I have a, a huge collection because I've just been to the Newcastle Writers Festival.

Dr Renee White: Okay.

Oceane Campbell: And I'm such a sucker for when you hear somebody talk about a book, and then I just want it, oh, Helen Garner the season. That's mm-hmm. There. Mm-hmm. And what else have I got on there at the moment? That's all I can think of.

Dr Renee White: Okay. Love it.

Oceane Campbell: Such a fun age. That's the other one, which, um, I'd started and then I had to put down because I needed to read another book [01:01:00] for book club. And then I, I, I'm gonna get back into it because I absolutely am loving it, but Yeah. I'll, I'll often have two or three books that I'm physically reading. Yeah. And then I listen to a lot of audio books on my ride to and from work. Yeah. And so I always have a few audio books going at the same time. Yeah,

Dr Renee White: I love that. I, I used to be a hard book only kind of gal, and I was like, I bought a kindle years ago or something. I thought I would, yeah. I thought I would transition to Kindle and then I was like, I can't do it. I just can't do it and then a few years ago someone sent me a, you know, pre-published book that I had to read before a podcast, and it was PDF and I was like I got a Kindle still. And I read it on the Kindle and I was like, game changer, I'm done. I'm a Kindle girl now. Like, I was like, that's it. Not doing this anymore. So yes, I always love to know what format people, uh, read their books in, but I can't. Yeah, we haven't been, I haven't gone into the audio stuff yet.

Oceane Campbell: I, oh, see, I love, [01:02:00] I've been breastfeeding without break at night for seven and a half years. Yes. And so that's for me, audio books all the way because I don't have to turn lights on. I don't have to wake babies up. I don't even have to open my eyes or, or worry.

Dr Renee White: That's a good point.

Oceane Campbell: I just keep going with my audio book. Yeah. And then I have a 40 minute cycle to and from work. Mm-hmm. You know, multiple times a week. And so I just, I get through so many books and I absolutely love it.

Dr Renee White: I think the only audio book I've successfully read are the, is the, like the Harry Potter series, because I love Stephen Fry's voice. Yeah. It really helps when it's a good it does it really? Yeah. I think I'm quite sensitive to people's like tone and I like, I've, I've actually, I've started books before and gone, oh God, no, I'm not listening to this. And then I've read the book like on my Kindle and gone, this is the best ever. I'm so glad I didn't push through because otherwise I would've absolutely hated it. Yeah. Oceane, it's been amazing to have you on the podcast. Thank you so [01:03:00] much. This book is so gorgeous and so insightful, and I think, I know I've got my copy, but I think I might buy my cousin a copy as well because I think she just really, really needs to read this. Um, can you let all the listeners know where can we purchase a copy of this?

Oceane Campbell: Yeah. So all the usual online channels, wherever you buy books, if you buy them online, so Booktopia, Dymocks whatever, you know, bookshop you like to go through. Mm-hmm. Um, check your local bookshop. Lots of, um, local bookshops have stocked them. I've, there's a bunch of signed copies throughout Sydney because I went and, and signed a whole bunch. Nice. Um, but also, yeah, all over the place and you can also follow me on the social, so Oceane Campbell writer. Mm-hmm. And there's like a link tree that has links to where you can purchase and to my publishing page through Heidi Grant, where you can also look at all the places that stock them.

Dr Renee White: I love that. And are you planning to do an audio version? [01:04:00] Have you got an audio version out?

Oceane Campbell: Uh, I don't have an audio version out. My first book does. Yep. So you can also get my first book, uh, the Silence Between Us, which was written by myself and my mum, Cécile Barral and this book is not an audio, but I hope that we will get the opportunity to, this is the shout out to the publishers.

Dr Renee White: Do they make this book audio? Connor. Connor, get onto it. Yeah. I think it would be beautiful if you, if you had an audio version of that for all the mamas out there who are breastfeeding for the last seven years straight. Exactly. That is what you should dedicate, um, the audio to, I think, yeah, to all the mamas lying or sitting in the dark with their babies. This one's for you already told to them. Um, it has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast like everyone would've heard in the introduction. We have been very lucky to get multiple copies of this book and [01:05:00] we are doing a giveaway so people can head over to our Instagram and look out for those details of how you can win a copy of the book as well.

But um, till next time, we will see everyone.

Oceane Campbell: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Dr Renee White: Thanks. If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well.

You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. Head to our website, ifillyourcup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself, ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered, so you can fully embrace the joy [01:06:00] of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye.