Track 1: Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector. I am your host Evan,

Track 1: back again with another film discussion from the left.

Track 1: You can follow the show at leftoftheprojector.com.

Track 1: This week on the show we are hitting another David Lynch film,

Track 1: this time the Twin Peaks Fire Walk With Me, the 1992 prequel film to the original

Track 1: first run of the show from 1990 and 1991.

Track 1: And back on the show I have John Kennedy, a filmmaker who previously was on

Track 1: the episode or on an episode discussing the Eyes Wide Shut.

Track 1: So I guess we've kind of, even though this isn't the same director,

Track 1: somehow I feel like there's these very sort of surrealist and interesting themes

Track 1: that we will probably get into. Thank you for joining me again.

Track 2: Thanks for having me back.

Track 1: Of course. Yeah, I think, I don't even know exactly how this materialized.

Track 1: I know we were talking about doing maybe like another Christmas movie as those

Track 1: were kind of a, you know, a, uh, of interest of yours. And then I think the

Track 1: unfortunate, you know, uh, passing of David Lynch led to me doing an episode on Mulholland Drive.

Track 1: I mean, it wasn't because of that, but just happened that way.

Track 1: And then I think we were talking about it and then.

Track 2: Yeah, I think we had actually started talking about doing this before Lynch passed.

Track 1: Oh, you're right. You're right. Okay. So I lied. I lied, everyone.

Track 2: And yeah it like i think i just like casually threw out there like you know

Track 2: if you're covering any lynch like i'm you know he he's my guy as far as like

Track 2: filmmaking influences go and you know,

Track 2: that sort of thing so it's like you know if you're if you're doing any any lynch

Track 2: i'd be happy to do an episode on that and you're.

Track 1: Right i i now now that you said that i think maybe it's just that when it happened

Track 1: then we're like okay we should definitely like maybe.

Track 2: Yeah do.

Track 1: This now it's like it seems not the greatest time but also at the same time

Track 1: like a celebration of the.

Track 2: Yeah of.

Track 1: Uh you know the film and uh yeah and i did the people

Track 1: could listen to one from about a month ago on the mall and drive which i think

Track 1: is my favorite david lynch i we like got into like oh what's your favorite and

Track 1: then it's so hard to pin down but i will like i'm gonna i guess maybe put you

Track 1: on the spot and say like what do you think your favorite is it doesn't have to be this one of course.

Track 2: I honestly that's like a super

Track 2: easy one for me to answer because i've spent so

Track 2: much time and like it's been so important to

Track 2: me um so like the reason i sort of started making films in the first place was

Track 2: because of inland empire um like i like i became a david lynch fan in when i

Track 2: was like probably around 17 and like it kind of like sparked my interest in filmmaking but when um,

Track 2: you know that was just before that was around the

Track 2: release of Mulholland Drive and then yeah

Track 2: I became obsessed with him and then when Inland Empire

Track 2: came out the the way he went about

Track 2: making it was just like really like

Track 2: the you know take taking a cheap digital video camera and just kind of like

Track 2: piecemeal putting together you know idea by idea this you know sprawling you

Track 2: know kind of like three hour surrealist nightmare it was just like an unbelievable feat of like.

Track 2: Artistry that it made me think like

Track 2: on the one hand

Track 2: you know i could never put together something that

Track 2: intricate and like you know

Track 2: sprawling but at the same time he did

Track 2: it you know on a much larger scale than anything i

Track 2: would ever do but like you know he this was

Track 2: him making a movie with his friends you know kind of like almost the same way

Track 2: he did with eraser head you know he would get ideas and he'd call up laura dern

Track 2: and be like hey let's you know let's shoot this scene and like as they were

Track 2: going like things started to come together and that really like spoke to,

Track 2: like my interests as someone who

Track 2: wanted to make films uh so like inland

Track 2: empire is easily like and i

Track 2: don't even necessarily think it's his you know like i don't really believe in

Track 2: ranking art in general but i wouldn't even go i like if you asked me what his

Track 2: best work is yeah i would say something completely different but you know for

Track 2: like inland empire has just been like the most important film of like the past 20 years for me yeah.

Track 1: I think there's always a personal connection that you can't you

Track 1: know there's there's films that i like that you probably would say like you know that's maybe

Track 1: not the best film but just somehow there's something about it that

Track 1: you can't like oftentimes like the first time you

Track 1: watch it there's all those uh the the nostalgia aspect for

Track 1: me i think i said this in the mulholland

Track 1: drive episode that that was probably my favorite of

Track 1: his film but just because it was the first one that i

Track 1: like actually could i don't know just uh kind

Track 1: of vibe with or understand i saw eraser head

Track 1: before that and that just kind of like i didn't i wasn't prepared for that especially

Track 1: of at the age i was that and then seeing you know the you know i guess more

Track 1: um an easier digestible film perhaps it made it easier to like that one But

Track 1: after re-watching this film, Twin Peaks, Fire Walk With Me,

Track 1: it could creep near this meaningless ranking.

Track 1: But I couldn't believe how...

Track 1: It is like i think i i don't usually write like long reviews when i record when

Track 1: i do things on letterboxd but i think i just wrote like a few words what i read

Track 1: wrote this film is heartbreaking and like that was the only thing that i could

Track 1: say after i watched it and that's just uh yeah.

Track 2: It's it's a devastating like yeah incidentally it's funny that you say like

Track 2: you know the first time you watched your razorhead you like just couldn't really

Track 2: make sense of what you were experiencing because my first attempt to watch a

Track 2: David Lynch film was actually Fire Walk With.

Track 1: Me.

Track 2: Which I don't recommend anyone, like if you haven't seen the series Twin Peaks,

Track 2: don't watch Fire Walk With Me because it kind of spoils the mystery that's at the core of the series.

Track 2: But I had always heard like, yeah, I would read on message boards and stuff

Track 2: like they'd be talking about favorite directors or best directors and David

Track 2: Lynch's name would always come up.

Track 2: And i was this

Track 2: was like yeah probably about 2000 or so

Track 2: and you know his name would

Track 2: always come up and then i was a big fan of silent

Track 2: hill so one day i was you know reading a message

Track 2: board post about like the influences on silent hill

Track 2: and twin peaks came up in that so i was like you know kind of

Track 2: like filed that away in the back of my head and then

Track 2: on the verge of the release

Track 2: of moholland drive um this network

Track 2: here in canada showcase which most people would

Track 2: in in the u.s at least would know

Track 2: as the network that produced trailer park

Track 2: boys uh they had this movie series that

Track 2: they would do called the showcase review and they would show like independent

Track 2: films and like uh international films and that kind of stuff and one weekend

Track 2: they did a david lynch weekend so So the Friday night was Blue Velvet and Wild at Heart.

Track 2: And then Saturday night, they showed Firewalk with me and Lost Highway.

Track 2: And, you know, I was looking at the schedule and I was like,

Track 2: okay, Twin Peaks, Firewalk with me.

Track 2: Okay, you know, this is a big influence on Silent Hill or whatever.

Track 2: So, you know, I keep hearing David Winch's name come up. So I'll watch that.

Track 2: Um and you know like like i said i'm this

Track 2: is like maybe two like 2001 i'm

Track 2: 16 and you know i i'd already seen like you know a handful of like really bizarre

Track 2: like uh a really common movie that they would show on the showcase review was

Track 2: gummo um which i had seen a couple of times at this point and still had no fucking

Track 2: clue what was going on in that and like.

Track 2: Like felt really out of my depth watching that so but

Track 2: like i wasn't completely alien to

Track 2: you know art house cinema or like you know weird shit

Track 2: basically and so i turn on

Track 2: fire walk with me and you know we get past the scene

Track 2: where you know he's like get me chet desmond in fargo north

Track 2: dakota and you know and so i'm

Track 2: like that's fine that's fine uh and then they fly into the

Track 2: portland airport and david lynch brings out

Track 2: lil and she does her little dance i'm

Track 2: like what the fuck is going on this is

Track 2: i am so out of my element here so i i

Track 2: turned it off at that point i'm really glad that

Track 2: i did because you know without like like

Track 2: i said you know if you haven't seen the show you

Track 2: know that core mystery of who killed laura palmer is so important that

Track 2: you know if you see firewalk with me before

Track 2: you watch the series you know who killed laura

Track 2: palmer you know why he killed Laura Palmer to a degree I

Track 2: guess and like it would you know completely you

Track 2: know empty out that first you know season and

Track 2: a half of Twin Peaks so

Track 2: yeah then you know I had kind of had this failed experience of watching David

Track 2: Lynch and like I grew up in a small town so like you know all the movie rentals

Track 2: were there were no like rental stores it was all you know, convenience stores with a movie section.

Track 2: And one day I went, I assume it was a Friday night or whatever,

Track 2: you know, I was like, I'm going to go buy some snacks, rent a movie.

Track 2: And Mulholland Drive was in the new releases section. I was like,

Track 2: what's this David Lynch? I should give this guy another try.

Track 2: And I went home, watched Mulholland Drive

Track 2: by myself and just like had my

Track 2: life completely changed and that like

Track 2: kind of set me off down this path of like

Track 2: borderline obsession probably with David Lynch you know like he is like since

Track 2: that moment been like the most important artist in my life and you know kind

Track 2: of shaped every subsequent you know idea I've had about,

Track 2: art and filmmaking and you know all of that kind of thing so it's really,

Track 2: it's interesting that you know you can have this initial kind of like completely off-putting,

Track 2: incomprehensible experience with David Lynch and then you kind of come back

Track 2: to it later once You know, the ideas kind of melt into your brain, I guess.

Track 2: And all of a sudden it just like opens up this whole world of like,

Track 2: what could be, you know, in terms of like.

Track 2: You know the cinematic experience.

Track 1: Yeah that i don't know that i've

Track 1: ever had that experience with that many other filmmakers

Track 1: where i've no maybe i mean maybe i could

Track 1: say like with i remember seeing like a

Track 1: cronenberg film when i was fairly young too and just

Track 1: i guess it's a different it's like it's different like there's it's

Track 1: a different kind of film in general but i remember then watching when

Track 1: i'm older being like oh man like i you know i really wish

Track 1: i had almost waited to watch this and watch it when i could appreciate it

Track 1: but the the thing the other thing too about at least for david lynn

Track 1: for me is when i was in college a friend of mine had the twin

Track 1: peaks vhs set right and

Track 1: he was telling me like he spent like a whole like afternoon you know telling

Track 1: us like you gotta watch this show and we ended up watching i think just the

Track 1: the the um it's the pilot i guess is it is it called like is it referred to

Track 1: as a pilot even yeah yeah so the like the pilot which is you know like the length

Track 1: of a movie and i'm like oh this is awesome and And then we just,

Track 1: I never watched it after.

Track 1: Like I never borrowed the VHS from him. I never got to see it.

Track 1: And then after I graduated, I then found it on eBay to buy it.

Track 1: And that ended up being really like the first time I watched more than,

Track 1: you know, just Eraserhead and Mulholland Drive.

Track 1: And then finally it was like watching this full on, just this is, you know, a long form.

Track 1: And I was just like blown away about it. And this was also something I,

Track 1: you mentioned message boards. I remember going on a message board thing,

Track 1: like, oh, are you supposed to watch the show before the film?

Track 1: Like, no, don't watch the film. And I'm like, oh, thank God I didn't do that.

Track 2: And that's honestly like that's still like a conversation that people have.

Track 2: And it's like, you know, like even outside the context of Twin Peaks,

Track 2: I think it's kind of foolish to watch a prequel before the original thing that it's a prequel for.

Track 2: Because the point of a prequel is to like kind of recontextualize what you're seeing,

Track 2: you know what you've seen in the original you know property you know the original

Track 2: film the original series whatever so i i think it's yeah anytime yeah i i i

Track 2: would put this down as a you know a solid rule of thumb like if there's a prequel

Track 2: watch the original first in any like regardless.

Track 1: Yeah that's it's a good it is a good role but to like to the point of like it

Track 1: being like it's because i mean like i said i think right before recording we

Track 1: were saying you know it's hard to talk about the film Fire Walk With Me without

Track 1: talking about the original run of the show, which was, again,

Track 1: the first season, just an eight episodes, and then a full, I guess,

Track 1: a full, you know, network season of 22 episodes in the second season.

Track 1: And, you know, I mean, so how do you, I'm trying to think of how to ask this.

Track 1: It's like, how would you sort of characterize how he went from sort of this,

Track 1: you know, long drawn out mystery, which doesn't exactly uncover,

Track 1: like if you've ever watched a show and you know there will be

Track 1: spoilers at some point you'll find out who killed we'll talk about

Track 1: who killed Laurel Palmer if you haven't watched it but you find

Track 1: out who the killer is early in the second season and so

Track 1: there's still all this length of time you know of the show and then you have

Track 1: to wait a whole other I guess two years before he releases the film so how do

Track 1: you sort of put the like put them all together as sort of one and then also

Track 1: I should also not forget the season three which is the return from 2017 like in this Yes.

Track 1: I don't know, the twin peak universe kind of thing. Like, how do you perceive the whole thing?

Track 1: And, you know, maybe for someone who hasn't seen all of these,

Track 1: because given that we're talking about a movie with a show and then,

Track 1: you know, there's 48 episodes of the show, I guess.

Track 1: So there's a lot of content for someone to go check out.

Track 2: Yeah. It's, it's kind of, yeah, it's a pretty sprawling kind of,

Track 2: uh, kind of experience, but.

Track 2: But it's kind of weird the way the sequel, like Firewalk With Me,

Track 2: came about was because originally Lynch and Frost never wanted to reveal who killed Dora Palmer.

Track 2: It was always supposed to be, you know, Lynch always refers to it or referred

Track 2: to it as, you know, the goose that lay the golden egg and like all the ideas that, you know,

Track 2: they wove into the story where, you know, these, these golden eggs that the,

Track 2: the core mystery of who killed Laura Palmer was giving them.

Track 2: And you know it was really network pressure

Track 2: that forced them to you know reveal who killed

Track 2: Laura and like they they were so adamant that like you know you would think

Track 2: okay they want us to reveal who killed Laura Palmer we'll do that at you know

Track 2: the end of the season but they were like no we need this answer like we you

Track 2: were not getting until the end of the season you have seven episodes to let

Track 2: us know who the fuck killed Laura Palmer,

Track 2: you know, and like that was,

Track 2: you know, it's, it's, I guess like, you know,

Track 2: in the Twin Peaks community, like fan community, it's kind of common knowledge

Track 2: that, you know, David Lynch stepped back as a writer to a large degree in the,

Track 2: the latter part of season two.

Track 2: And a lot of that is because of, you know, those disagreements with the network.

Track 2: And, but, you know, he was.

Track 2: Really drawn to the character of laura palmer

Track 2: um he you know couldn't really

Track 2: let go of you know even when the show completely forgot about laura palmer to

Track 2: a large extent he was you know it for him the show was laura palmer and so after

Track 2: the show got canceled he felt like he needed to

Track 2: go back and like kind of explore what Laura Palmer meant to the story, I guess.

Track 2: Um, so that's how, that, that's how the,

Track 2: you know, rather than expanding on what happens, you know, after Cooper comes

Track 2: out of the black lodge and, you know, has, yeah, we'll get to all this stuff, but, you know, has, is.

Track 2: You know, the big season two cliffhanger is that, you know, Cooper has

Track 2: been inhabited by bob uh

Track 2: but instead of you know expanding on that he

Track 2: just really wanted to dive into those

Track 2: experiences of like laura palmer's last week and you know he even you know filmed

Track 2: more of that final scene of season two with you know cooper but didn't go beyond

Track 2: it you know in the You know,

Track 2: he just, that was the end of the story for him for the time being.

Track 2: And he just really needed to, to dive into that.

Track 2: Into laura's story yeah.

Track 1: It's it's uh and then and then one thing we didn't even i don't know if it's

Track 1: i guess we should mention it too is there's also an entire another film that

Track 1: was released i don't want to call it a film i guess it's like a deleted scenes

Track 1: it's like built into a film twin peaks and missing pieces which then has all these.

Track 2: The yeah it's the it's the length of you know a short feature film it's like

Track 2: an hour and 15 minutes or so and the that in and of itself is a pretty.

Track 2: Amazing like the fact that so it's

Track 2: it's so hard to like keep my my thoughts

Track 2: like coherent trying to there's

Track 2: so many aspects of of the story that

Track 2: like i keep like my brain just keeps wanting to jump to

Track 2: but like the the missing pieces were such

Track 2: a big deal when they came out uh they were

Track 2: on the whole the complete mystery

Track 2: box set that came out in 2014 and they

Track 2: had been like in legal legal limbo since like

Track 2: the early 90s they were owned by i think mk2 in

Track 2: france those production company that um had

Track 2: some kind of you know uh stake in the production of firewalk with me or whatever

Track 2: But they were like almost like a myth in the Twin Peaks like fan community for so long.

Track 2: Like I remember reading about them like after I like actually watched Fire Walk

Track 2: With Me and like, you know, dove into all the message word discussions and stuff about that.

Track 2: And was like would read like all the like City of Absurdity and like DougPed.com,

Track 2: like David Lynch websites. and they would talk about these like you know you

Track 2: know firewalk with me had all of these characters and like all of these scenes from you know.

Track 2: You know are more of the twin peaks that we loved but

Track 2: you know they'll never see the light of day because this this

Track 2: company won't let them so like when like i remember hearing that they finally

Track 2: got clearance to release those i was just like you know i had been waiting you

Track 2: know 15 years probably at this or like 12 or 13 years at this point to to see

Track 2: those and that was you know,

Track 2: really like you know just like the idea that twin peaks has more like there's

Track 2: more to twin peaks than we had previously seen was this like the most exciting possible thing and.

Track 1: Some of the scenes are are so

Track 1: funny the one that comes to mind is when uh when uh what's his um agent um.

Track 2: Chet desmond yeah.

Track 1: He's like he's fighting the sheriff.

Track 2: And it's.

Track 1: Like the and it just that is like there's almost no reason for that scene to

Track 1: have been like seven or eight minutes long or whatever it is.

Track 2: Yeah yeah but it's so good it was just you know david lynch's love of drawing

Track 2: out a really dry comedic moment um yeah and like you watch the missing pieces

Track 2: and it's like you can understand why they were cut because you know they a lot

Track 2: of them are very you know light and silly,

Track 2: and you know don't really fit the tone

Track 2: of like this is you know the really dark story

Track 2: of laura palmer's last seven days so you know

Track 2: they yeah there's a cut uh

Track 2: like a fan edit that was released uh

Track 2: a few years ago i guess or whenever the the missing pieces were released where

Track 2: they you know put the missing pieces back into the full film and it really like

Track 2: the narrative flow of that really like,

Track 2: lynch was right to to cut those scenes.

Track 1: Yeah some of it just would have worked if like that instead of

Track 1: being a prequel movie had been like a prequel show

Track 1: like let's say they made eight episodes or something all of

Track 1: those would have been okay you know or yeah yeah totally yeah but so i mean

Track 1: i think that's all like it's all makes the like all of the things that you uncover

Track 1: again like i'm not gonna we won't need to rehash the entire you know first second

Track 1: season because there's you could have a podcast that's just talking about the show easily.

Track 2: There are a million great podcasts that do that.

Track 1: That's not the goal here or the time for everyone to listen.

Track 1: But to go into, I think it's worth then, I guess,

Track 1: because I just mentioned the sheriff of this other Dear Meadow,

Track 1: which is where you're kind of dropped off in the beginning of the Twin Peaks film.

Track 1: Is you're starting with this discovery of Teresa Baggs, which you learn about

Track 1: early on in the first season of Twin Peaks, the show where, you know, this is now,

Track 1: Laura Palmer is now the second person who Agent Cooper believes is part of the

Track 1: same, you know, the same crime.

Track 1: And in this, Cooper is not dispatched. It's Agent Gordon Cole.

Track 1: And it is the first, I don't know, 25 minutes, I guess, is the deer.

Track 1: Maybe it's a little longer than that. is some of the most interesting,

Track 1: I think I've mentioned this to you before, which maybe it's the obvious thing,

Track 1: is that it's like the opposite world.

Track 1: If you think of just the complete opposite of what Twin Peaks is,

Track 1: like this warm, cozy place where they have tables filled with jelly donuts and

Track 1: delicious coffee and all these, a really nice chief of police.

Track 1: And then in Deer Meadow, It's like the opposite of that, of just this dry, stale coffee, no food.

Track 1: And I don't know how you could have started it off better, just showing you kind of the.

Track 1: It's like almost like a love letter to twin peaks itself because of how much

Track 1: he loves you know that world and this is like this stinky ass place no one wants.

Track 2: To go yeah i think uh the really like,

Track 2: dear meadow even like more

Track 2: than being just like you know kind of like a reverse image

Track 2: of twin peaks i almost think of it like you

Track 2: know to to get marxist about it

Track 2: right away but like i i kind of view it as like a

Track 2: dialectically related like it's you

Track 2: know like lynch's filmmaking in

Track 2: general is very like dialectical like the opposite is

Track 2: always contained within the thing and so like

Track 2: you know we get all of these reversals and

Track 2: like you know we get the the

Track 2: sheriff station in deer meadow where

Track 2: like sheriff cable is a complete piece of

Track 2: shit like just belligerent asshole you know he's really like you know doesn't

Track 2: want to cooperate at all you got you know deputy cliff who's like like the he's

Track 2: like like the inversion of like the negation of andy like Like he's like,

Track 2: you know, it's like kind of like burly,

Track 2: like, you know, tough guy shithead who's like, you know.

Track 2: He's also the drug dealer that bobby kills later

Track 2: in the movie uh you know so you

Track 2: have to assume that like the like the

Track 2: sheriff's station in deer meadow is like running drugs

Track 2: not just like you know yeah when

Track 2: they do the you know whole thing with lil you know

Track 2: the the altered dresses code

Track 2: for you know drugs being there so we get

Track 2: this like you know these like

Track 2: very direct inversions of what we

Track 2: see in Twin Peaks you know Hap's Diner is you

Track 2: know disgusting dingy you know

Track 2: Irene is like you know smoking and

Track 2: like you know really surly and like the complete

Track 2: opposite of Norma Jennings in every conceivable way

Track 2: they you know they don't have any specials you know

Track 2: their coffee is probably really shitty they don't have pie

Track 2: you know so like we we get all

Track 2: of these like uh you

Track 2: know kind of inversions but like even within the town of

Track 2: twin peaks itself we have you know you know all this like really idyllic middle

Track 2: class small town with like you know all of these like dark you know laura with

Track 2: her you know drug problem and the abuse that she's going through and.

Track 2: You know the the more working class elements of

Track 2: twin peaks like you know leo and shelly there's a lot of

Track 2: uh you know leo's just

Track 2: you know an abject piece of shit as well but like

Track 2: like deer meadow takes that a step

Track 2: further and it's like you know you know there's the dark underbelly of twin

Track 2: peaks and then there's the darker underbelly of like this like of the show twin

Track 2: peaks that you know that we get and you can almost like,

Track 2: you know you can almost draw the like the

Track 2: line of like you know in twin

Track 2: peaks the the main industry there is you

Track 2: know the the lumber mill you know

Track 2: it's you know they've got this like really like advanced

Track 2: kind of you know industry in

Track 2: twin peaks and you know the exploitation

Track 2: and alienation that comes from you know the working

Track 2: class in that town is you

Track 2: know in sheriff cable's office

Track 2: we got that big handsaw on the back of uh on the wall and so like deer meadow

Track 2: is presumably a logging town as well that couldn't keep up with you know the

Track 2: advancement of capital so like they're just even more impoverished and more

Track 2: everyone lives in trailer parks they're like yeah clearly a.

Track 1: Much you know poor you know or less well off you know kind of town elapidated.

Track 2: Yeah so like you get these kind of you know kind of like spiraling relationships

Track 2: of like you know everything that's happening in twin peaks is you know happening

Track 2: even worse in deer meadow um,

Track 2: so like i i kind of think of deer meadow in in that sense you know it's just like,

Track 2: taking like the rot of twin peaks and like making it like full blown it's.

Track 1: Interesting you mentioned like the like the

Track 1: dialectical sort of uh approach of

Track 1: looking at you know the two different kind of places and

Track 1: how do you think that well so i mean i'm not gonna we want to sketch out the

Track 1: whole film but for the most part in the initial investigation as they're trying

Track 1: to find out you know maybe what happened to theresa banks they're they go to

Track 1: the diner they're investigating they're doing all these you know things here

Track 1: and you know again also which i we haven't even mentioned any of like the actors in this which.

Track 2: I which is.

Track 1: Almost like i i didn't even say like who it's starring there's a lot of people

Track 1: in this but i also just love the i was going to mention the addition of harry

Track 1: dean stan who's like the i guess like the landlord guy or you know the owner

Track 1: manager of the trailer park is just awesome in this too.

Track 2: Oh yeah he harry i mean Harry Dean Stanton is amazing in everything. Yeah, that's true.

Track 2: But yeah, the, like the, the cast, uh, like even, you know, going back to like

Track 2: how, like, you know, Dear Meadow and that story is kind of like an inversion

Track 2: of Twin Peaks, you know, like.

Track 2: Uh chet desmond played by chris isaac

Track 2: and sam sam lee played by um by what

Track 2: uh keifer sutherland oh yeah i forgot about

Track 2: him too yes yeah yeah they're like they're you

Track 2: know kind of an inversion of of cooper

Track 2: and albert um yeah you

Track 2: know like uh you know chet desmond

Track 2: is you know kind of like very like dryly cool

Track 2: but also kind of a dickhead you know

Track 2: he's like kind of snarky when

Track 2: he's talking to people he like you know pulls that prank on

Track 2: sam when they're at the diner he's like

Track 2: you know what time is it sam and he like look he notices that's

Track 2: a coffee with his watch hand and he pours the

Track 2: coffee on himself and so like he is like you

Track 2: know you know he might be you know

Track 2: a good detective or whatever but he is like you know

Track 2: like his personality is so different like from Cooper's uh and you know Sam

Track 2: is has kind of like that dorky kind of like boyishness to him that's you know

Track 2: the complete opposite of Albert's acerbic you know.

Track 2: Sarcasm that is you know not snarky in the same way that desmond is but it's it's whole other,

Track 2: level of you know just snarkiness and you know but they they you know they they

Track 2: perform they're doing the same job you know in the pilot cooper's like you know

Track 2: when he's recording his message to diane about the letter under laura's finger

Track 2: he's you know don't go to sam go to albert,

Track 2: so you know they're playing the same role but he's you know just like the opposite

Track 2: of albert in every conceivable way.

Track 1: I like in the uh in the missing pieces too when they

Track 1: have agent cooper talking into the microphone or like

Track 1: and not a microphone just a little like no he's not talking directly to diane

Track 1: being like trying to guess what's like different in her office or whatever

Track 1: yeah yeah yeah i just like the uh i just

Track 1: love i mean i mean i guess that's the like the constant that you

Track 1: do get is you do get cooper you need to get kyle

Track 1: mcclanahan as cooper but you know for only a

Track 1: smaller portion of the of the film as opposed to you

Track 1: know the main star of the of the series and

Track 1: i think it's like it's perfectly done where they did

Track 1: bring back some of the characters you know some of the actors but then they also had

Track 1: people playing you know moira kelly playing donna in the show sorry in the film

Track 1: but not in the show and so like but the first time i had seen this in a while

Track 1: i'm like man it you can almost barely tell it's like almost uncanny how good

Track 1: she is in that role i mean she looks a little different but yeah.

Track 2: Like there's a reading i

Track 2: saw recently actually uh you can kind of interpret maura kelly's role in firewalk

Track 2: with me as like she's like she's a lot she seems a lot more naive than Lara

Track 2: Flynn Boyle in the series and she's like.

Track 2: You know kind of like kind of playing this

Track 2: like softer role that like in the

Track 2: series laura flynn boyle's version of donna almost

Track 2: seems to have been like hardened by the death of laura and like

Track 2: what she's been through with laura so you can almost

Track 2: like even if it wasn't you know just

Track 2: casting it out of necessity because laura flynn boyle didn't

Track 2: want to do the movie it was you know it kind

Track 2: of plays a role

Track 2: in like the understanding of the character almost um

Track 2: yeah weird weird like kind

Track 2: of tangent to go off on here at this point but uh worth

Track 2: noting that today is both kyle mclaughlin and

Track 2: uh louise binwell's birthdays and

Track 2: i i had this thought earlier of uh we've been

Track 2: well like i don't think he was like a direct influence on lynch

Track 2: but like there's you know some some sensibilities there

Track 2: but in his film uh the obscure

Track 2: object of desire there's a a character played by two different actresses and

Track 2: it kind of it's kind of funny to see that reflected in you know the way donna

Track 2: is played by two different actresses across twin peaks but uh i didn't realize this birthday.

Track 1: Actually well the other thing i was thinking about with

Track 1: like you mentioned like how the death of laura palmer sort of

Track 1: hardens her i almost wanted i almost when i was watching it the thing i

Track 1: was struck by like as the character is definitely sort

Track 1: of like more quiet and you know she kind

Track 1: of goes along more with you know it's

Track 1: almost like in the in that not just hardened but like she wants to

Track 1: be almost be like the new laura palmer but not like to

Track 1: be her necessarily but to be as like strong

Track 1: as she was because she gets dragged along you know i always dragged along is

Track 1: the wrong word she sort of forces her way along to go with the jock and that

Track 1: other group you know to you know be be sex workers for the night and that i

Track 1: always think it's like that alone would almost just,

Track 1: take you from just sort of this naive person to being like this is the real

Track 1: world i've now experienced.

Track 2: Yeah and like you know i've i've

Track 2: i can't remember where i saw this but i saw someone refer to that like when

Track 2: she decides she wants to go with laura you know on you know to this like fucked

Track 2: up canadian bar that they end up going to uh like it's almost her trying to,

Track 2: protect laura like she wants like this is like an

Track 2: almost heroic act on donna's part where she's like okay

Track 2: i like i want to be there to like make sure that like nothing too awful happens

Track 2: because you know she obviously knows there's a lot of like bad shit happening

Track 2: in laura's life and she's like okay i need to like try to intervene here not

Track 2: realizing that she then gets uh.

Track 1: You know roofie.

Track 2: You know completely in over her head in every possible way yeah.

Track 1: Yeah that's that's completely true and i know i like.

Track 2: Like not knowing like the absolute depravity of like the the guys that they're

Track 2: you know heading out with.

Track 1: That that part like especially too where there's like no real dialogue except

Track 1: for the like the music at that moment it's so like i feel like that's actually

Track 1: the most well there's a couple parts i was when i say difficult i mean like

Track 1: it's almost it's just like it's

Track 1: hard to like you just you feel so you feel like so deeply like oh my god.

Track 2: Yeah this is overwhelming yeah like it's a sensory like overwhelming sensory experience exactly.

Track 1: Which you don't like you, like you in the show, you're like kind of,

Track 1: you don't ever really treated or to any of that knowledge, like Donna never,

Track 1: you know, repeats that this had happened to her.

Track 1: She doesn't talk about the thing. She doesn't share any of this with the,

Track 1: you know, the, you know, the FBI, the police, all this stuff is kind of like kept under wraps.

Track 1: And then you realize in the, you know, in this last week that,

Track 1: you know, that Laura was, you know, spiraling, which I think,

Track 1: you know, we should also get to get to her, of course.

Track 1: But part of like the mystery ends up sort of flipping from the deer meadow to

Track 1: taking you to a year later in Swim Peaks, where we now have,

Track 1: you know, seeing Laura Palmer again.

Track 1: Like it's almost like a weird whiplash of having seen

Track 1: her only in sort of memory in a few sequences

Track 1: in the show especially in this first season and now you

Track 1: have like her just walking around like living her life it's almost like this

Track 1: very weird um i don't know not i not uh don't think i'm doing a double take

Track 1: but just you're like oh now i can actually see like david lynch's vision of

Track 1: what her life was like as opposed to just her after death yeah.

Track 2: Like it like it humanizes her.

Track 1: Yes yeah that's a good way you.

Track 2: Know it takes like this like for the series she's basically just this image

Track 2: of a dead girl you know and that's you know that's what laura or cheryl lee

Track 2: was cast you know for um and,

Track 2: you kind of throughout the series you get this like

Track 2: you know you hear people talk about you know what she was

Track 2: like but you don't like you know she's you

Track 2: know she's she's not real you

Track 2: know in any like concrete sense

Track 2: she's just like people's idea of what she was so then like when firewalk with

Track 2: me you know shifts to twin peaks you get this you know fully fleshed out human

Track 2: being that you know we wouldn't have gotten otherwise yeah.

Track 1: I mean charlie is is you know you know incredible i mean to say the least.

Track 2: Yeah it's and i mean that was like you know her

Track 2: first major like acting role

Track 2: like she had done a bit of theater before twin

Track 2: peaks and she was you know

Track 2: maddie in the first season of twin peaks and had a like very brief role in wild

Track 2: at heart at the end of that i was about to say yeah yeah but she hadn't done

Track 2: any like you know major acting and like the way she just like fully threw herself

Track 2: into that especially since maddie is like a.

Track 1: Different like it's a different.

Track 2: Like it's not the.

Track 1: Same like she's acting very.

Track 2: Like reserved.

Track 1: Whereas this is like i'm you know full-throated you know just.

Track 2: Yeah and like i've seen um kind of interviews where you know she's talked about

Track 2: how even though like it was like you know mentally you understand like you know

Track 2: this is fiction it's just a role or stuff like,

Track 2: going through like creating that character and like embodying that character

Track 2: kind of like took a really physical toll on her like in you know kind of a like

Track 2: a body keeps the score kind of way so like she like just absolutely went through

Track 2: it like apparently people like,

Track 2: on set and stuff were like concerned for her well-being like they were like

Track 2: you know is she going to be able to like come out of this like okay oh she's

Track 2: like embodying this like really intense character and these like really intense

Track 2: traumatic experiences in such a like visceral and in an intense way and,

Track 2: So it's, like, the fact that she did that, you know, as such a new actor is just incredible.

Track 1: Yeah, and, like, to the point of, like, how encompassing her character is,

Track 1: because she's, as we kind of learn in the show, especially, like,

Track 1: maybe, but not exactly when, you know, as you kind of unfold,

Track 1: you learn that basically she was living this, like, double life.

Track 1: She's like the homecoming queen and this great student somehow.

Track 1: I don't even know how like she would have had time to like be studying almost

Track 1: like, you know, but then, but then she's also living this life of what's that.

Track 2: That's, that's probably a reason she did so much coke.

Track 1: Yeah, I guess so. She's up all night, right? She has time to study.

Track 1: But yeah, so she's living like that one life. And then she's also,

Track 1: you know, moonlighting as, you know, a sex worker and having like,

Track 1: you know, she has a boyfriend, Bobby, you know, essentially.

Track 2: Meals on wheels. She's, you know, working with Johnny Horn. She's,

Track 2: you know, teaching Josie English.

Track 1: Yeah, right. And then, right. And the.

Track 2: She had like all of this.

Track 1: Yeah it's it's it's like it's it's just uh you know borderline insane and i

Track 1: think with i think that like it makes sense if you're trying to portray all

Track 1: of those different things on screen,

Track 1: i could see it being like too much and then on top of that like sort of the

Track 1: the big thing which is part of why i said this movie is so heartbreaking is

Track 1: sort of like the underlying theme which we learn in the show is there's this

Track 1: you know bob who is inhabiting you know uh Her father is,

Track 1: I mean, I guess we, at this point, anyone probably, I haven't avoided saying the official spoilers.

Track 1: We know that Leland Palmer is the murderer through Bob, through her, through her.

Track 1: I said that very poorly. Bob is possessing Leland Palmer and eventually then

Track 1: kills her, which we learn at the end of the film.

Track 1: And then we learn in episode seven of season two or episode eight.

Track 2: Seven. Okay.

Track 1: And I guess like what I was getting to is the like the assaults that we don't

Track 1: really know about in the in the show. And it's like comes into this where we're

Track 1: learning that Bob isn't just, you know, later kills her.

Track 1: It is that he is continuously abusing her for, you know, the better part of six or seven years.

Track 1: I think this is when she starts when she's 12. and it seems like she's trying

Track 1: to tell people this you know she's trying to share this but it's,

Track 1: very traumatic and not having not as someone who's like has like an a don't

Track 1: have an the experience to relate to i it can only imagine from things i was

Track 1: reading especially about people's responses to her character and the themes

Track 1: is it's hard to share these things with people you're you're you know it's yeah.

Track 2: And like you kind of see it throughout the movie she almost like deflects uh

Track 2: you know she she doesn't want to like confront the reality you know when don

Track 2: asks her you know why do you do this stuff and like all of like you know,

Track 2: Like people clearly see that there are problems, you know, and,

Track 2: you know, she, you know, she tells Jacoby some things, but not, you know, everything.

Track 2: And, uh, like the only place she really like tells everything is in her diary,

Track 2: which becomes like a big part of it.

Track 2: And, uh, you, you mentioned like, uh, you know, the, the portrayal of like how realistic, uh,

Track 2: you know, people have said that her, you know, portrayal of,

Track 2: uh, you know, trauma is, uh, I was, there's, um.

Track 2: A book by a, a film scholar, uh, Lindsay Hallam.

Track 2: And she talks about in

Track 2: uh just kind of drawing on another film scholar

Track 2: janet walker's idea of trauma cinema where like

Track 2: the depiction of like the actual events you

Track 2: know like you know this is like clearly and not

Track 2: a realistic like you know people who are abused

Track 2: by their you know family are

Track 2: generally not experiencing you know interdimensional evil

Track 2: spirits and you know that kind of thing but the

Track 2: like the way lynch uses

Track 2: like cinematic form like you know images

Track 2: and sound and you know

Track 2: constructs the the experience through

Track 2: like the art form itself it like

Track 2: produces the experience of

Track 2: the trauma that's that's you know

Track 2: closer to the real experience than

Track 2: you know just straight up telling would you

Track 2: know just saying you know showing leland assaulting laura would not have the

Track 2: same effect without yeah the the way it'll you know flash between bob and leland

Track 2: or you know we'll show the ceiling fan and like all these like intricate details

Track 2: the sounds and that kind of thing so like.

Track 2: It really kind of creates a more experiential sort of depiction of the trauma

Track 2: that I think resonates more than anything. Like you feel it, you know?

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: And like, there's a, Lindsay Hallam has a really good interview you can find

Track 2: on YouTube with, oh, I don't remember his name now.

Track 2: It's in my notes somewhere but um i'll probably touch on it again with some other stuff.

Track 1: But it's funny you were you reminded me of well two things one that just like

Track 1: a random thought is in the show early on when they go to interview sarah palmer

Track 1: at the at their house you have several,

Track 1: explicit shots of the fan and like the

Track 1: sound of the fan going but you don't have at that point you don't really it doesn't

Track 1: really mean a whole lot like you

Track 1: know in your mind is you're just watching it for the first time but then you watch

Track 1: the film and he's like he he he bridged that

Track 1: gap so well where you like understand and

Track 1: actually this is like led me to sort of like a curiosity i like

Track 1: i looked it up on like reddit some people say yes some people

Track 1: you know say no so well the two it's like two things one

Track 1: does sarah palmer know what leland does like all this time and at the same time

Track 1: does bob also abuse leland himself like was this like a situation where he's

Track 1: also being abused you think like previously it's.

Track 2: Yeah the the relationship between uh between bob and And Leland is really,

Track 2: like, it's, the way it's presented in, like, both the show and the movie,

Track 2: like, kind of, like, there are kind of, like, contradictory elements there,

Track 2: like, in the show, you know, once...

Track 2: You know, Leland confesses and Bob, you know, also confesses,

Track 2: I guess, you know, and Leland dies and Bob escapes, you know,

Track 2: the spirit of Bob goes off into into the ether or whatever.

Track 2: I think it's Hawk maybe who says, you know, that that's not Leland,

Track 2: you know, that, you know, and like Leland has this moment of like clarity almost, right?

Track 2: He's like, you know, he, you know, he, he doesn't seem to remember doing all

Track 2: the things that he did, but that, you know, in the, in the film, he's, um,

Track 2: kind of implicated a bit more, you know, we, when he kills Teresa Palmer, um,

Track 2: you know, we don't, we don't see Bob appear at all in, you know, in the killing of, uh,

Track 2: or Teresa Banks rather, sorry, not tweets of Palmer um but

Track 2: you know there there's no implication that you

Track 2: know you know he he killed her because she

Track 2: was you know blackmailing him or going to blackmail him and you know she knew

Track 2: too much basically and i that's kind of also i think why he kills maddie um

Track 2: in in the episode where we find out uh as well and you know it's kind of.

Track 2: He it's presented a little more that he

Track 2: has a bit more control over you know what he's doing

Track 2: and then you know you know she has

Track 2: teresa has the the letter under her finger so you know

Track 2: bob's involved somehow in that capacity you

Track 2: know uh he wants to you know leave his you

Track 2: know spiritual serial killer mark um

Track 2: but you know there's a

Track 2: scene when um laura

Track 2: is you know being assaulted by leland and normally she would see bob you know

Track 2: as the person doing it to her but she finally clearly sees leland as the one

Track 2: and he says you know i always thought you knew it was me no.

Track 1: I think it's I think it is in that I can't remember but yeah I mean it's it's

Track 1: unclear like whether what he's conscious of I guess is part of.

Track 2: It yeah yeah and like I like you know some

Track 2: people want to argue that like you know

Track 2: he's fully like I I think you know both things are true like I think he you

Track 2: know he's shown like even in the series you know he clearly knows is all about

Track 2: one-eyed jacks and like you know all of the ben horns you know trafficking of

Track 2: underage girls through his store he's.

Track 1: Not a good guy.

Track 2: Yeah no he is you know he's a piece of shit he is you know he's you know it's

Track 2: not bob that's making him you know hire underage sex workers like theresa banks

Track 2: you know um and you know in the show when he sees the the sketch of bob and he talks about,

Track 2: you know Bob being,

Track 2: his grandparents neighbor at Pearl Lakes and he would always flick matches at

Track 2: him and say you want to play with fire or whatever you know that kind of implies that you know he.

Track 2: That, that Bob was drawn to him, you know, even at an early age.

Track 2: So, you know, the implication might be that, you know,

Track 2: his, maybe his grandfather was abusing him or, you know, that like he,

Track 2: uh, one of the things in the book, the secret, uh,

Track 2: diary of Laura Palmer, you kind of get the sense that Laura is like from a young

Track 2: age, like thinks that she's bad, that she's like,

Track 2: you know, know a broken person and that she has like all these like kind of

Track 2: bad traits about her um and i kind of feel like you know that like negative

Track 2: like you know bob is like drawn to this kind of like.

Track 2: Negative uh you know energy that you

Track 2: know for whatever you know whether it's the result

Track 2: of you know an external force

Track 2: or an internal link you know belief about oneself you know

Track 2: if there you know that negativity kind

Track 2: of creates a crack for bob to get in uh you know

Track 2: this is kind of how how i see it um and

Track 2: you know the you know

Track 2: bob isn't like an all controlling figure like you

Track 2: know we see a lot of moments of like both

Track 2: sides of leland without bob you know we see leland you

Track 2: know being you know or at least presenting you know as you know a caring father's

Track 2: you know that deleted scene where they're you know practicing uh how to say

Track 2: you know hello my name is whatever in Norwegian or whatever.

Track 2: And, you know, we get lots of scenes of like, you know.

Track 2: One really difficult scene i think in the

Track 2: movie in firewalk with me is uh i i

Track 2: think it might be like right after he um gives

Track 2: sarah the like

Track 2: drugged glass of milk he goes in and like

Track 2: is crying and like or maybe it's after

Track 2: like the night of when he like you know

Track 2: freaks out about her fingernails being dirty or whatever uh

Track 2: but he's like watch your hands telling laura how much yeah yeah

Track 2: but like later that night he you know goes in

Track 2: and sits down on laura's bed and he's like crying and telling her how much

Track 2: he loves her and stuff and like you know that's not uncommon

Track 2: for an abuser uh you know to you know

Track 2: abuse someone and then like oh you know i i do love you you

Track 2: know it's but it's you know we

Track 2: we get these like different sides of leland um

Track 2: where it kind of complicates of who

Track 2: he is as a person um and like

Track 2: the role like that's even you know outside of the

Track 2: influence of bob i think so like just

Track 2: having those like internal struggles seems to be like kind of you know they

Track 2: you know bob and like the other lodge spirits you know talk about you know garman

Track 2: bosia pain and sorrow or pain and suffering whatever it is um you know it kind

Track 2: of seems to be drawn to these like.

Track 2: People with like in like deep internal struggles i think.

Track 1: Well and and this all of this kind of makes me

Track 1: maybe think of which again i think

Track 1: this is what i think most of these aren't like these

Track 1: are things i might have thought of and then you look them up and

Track 1: it's like oh someone's like has an entire you know article or

Track 1: blog about it but it all like all seems to like land into

Track 1: this sort of uh like cycle of violence

Track 1: that's happened like you said like there's could be the grandfather father of Leland

Track 1: and then it goes to Leland and it's like this Bob might

Track 1: be this extraterrestrial kind of dimensional spirit

Track 1: that's inhabiting them but as you said like he's inhabiting them because they

Track 1: already have this yeah something is I don't want to say the word like they're

Track 1: it's not wrong with them but they've now been encompassed in this like ongoing

Track 1: cycle where it's almost just they're you said like they're drawn to this negativity

Track 1: or something it's like it just can't end yeah.

Track 2: And like even like in the return

Track 2: you know part eight is sort of obliquely

Track 2: an origin story for like you know how bob comes into our

Track 2: or like the universe of twin peaks and

Track 2: you know it's the result of the trinity

Track 2: nuclear test you know like it's you

Track 2: know one of the great acts of like humanity

Track 2: creating this like

Track 2: the most evil kind of like negative possible energy you can imagine and that

Track 2: kind of like lets bob through into this kind of universe and so it like,

Track 2: i don't know i think like it draws like everything stems from you know these negative,

Track 2: acts of you know whether physical or emotional or like even like conceptual violence.

Track 1: Yeah and i i just i just wanted to add for anyone who doesn't know i didn't

Track 1: actually realize this is that the actor Frank Silva who portrays Bob in like

Track 1: the show and then I guess I guess he's not in the film no he's in the film but

Track 1: not in the revival right because he had passed away he's not like.

Track 2: He is kind of obliquely in the revival, but like as like an image,

Track 2: like he exists in like this, like orb, like you see his face in this like orb of sorts.

Track 1: Which is perfect because apparently the reason he ended up being in it was he

Track 1: was, wasn't an actor on like that was being, he was a set dresser and he ended

Track 1: up like having a reflection in a mirror and it was like, this guy's perfect for this role.

Track 2: Yeah. Well, it was, uh, he was.

Track 1: Did I get that wrong?

Track 2: He was working in Laura's room and someone just called out like,

Track 2: Hey, Frank, you know, don't get yourself locked in Laura's room.

Track 2: And like kind of Lynch had this like kind of like flash of an image of,

Track 2: you know, Frank Silva in Laura's room.

Track 2: He's like, okay, I'm going, Frank, do you act? You know, are you like in the, in the union?

Track 2: And Frank's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can be in this.

Track 2: It's like, if you want me to be in this, I can, I can do it.

Track 2: So he's like, I just want you down at the foot of the bed.

Track 2: We're going to pan across. and he did had like no idea what

Track 2: he was going to do with that shot and then

Track 2: uh when they were filming the scene of

Track 2: like sarah palmer has her like vision of like the hand taking the necklace from

Track 2: the pile of dirt or whatever and she like shoots up on the couch uh you know

Track 2: he's like perfect we got it and then like the camera operator is like no no

Track 2: someone was it there was you know crew in the in the mirror he's like who was

Track 2: in the mirror is like frank he's like this is This is like, you know,

Track 2: you know, this like cosmic coincidence of, you know, I had this,

Track 2: I like this shot that I didn't know what to do with.

Track 2: And then, you know, Frank shows up accidentally in this other scene. So like that's.

Track 2: You know without that happening you know the character of bob wouldn't even

Track 2: really like just exist just be like a thought right.

Track 1: It would just be like the in your.

Track 2: Yeah yeah.

Track 1: And it's so good without like i can't imagine it without his just.

Track 2: Yeah no like on like unbelievably like perfect set of circumstances to create

Track 2: like one of the all-time scariest like villains in anything.

Track 1: He's actually listed, I saw this on, on his, uh, Wikipedia page on Rolling Stone

Track 1: made a top 40 villains of all time.

Track 1: And he's number five on the list, which like, so this is.

Track 2: I think he should be number one, but I, I'd be interested to see.

Track 1: I know while i'm saying this i'm going to see if i can pull it

Track 1: up but the uh the um what i was

Track 1: going to mention about him was that in mulholland

Track 1: drive i think is probably one of it's probably the greatest like jump scare

Track 1: and like cinema cinematic history yeah however i was going to say in the scene

Track 1: where laura comes home like from school early and bob is behind the dresser

Track 1: it's probably like the second scariest oh.

Track 2: Yeah no it's horrifying and especially like when you understand like what that scene means for.

Track 1: Laura like how shook she is when she like is outside like trembling in the next

Track 1: level god all right so i got the list here number one is benjamin linus from lost i mean.

Track 2: I love lost i love ben but no fucking way.

Track 1: Number two is marlo stanfield from the wire.

Track 2: I've never watched the wire.

Track 1: I have seen it i don't necessarily think it's like more of more villainous okay

Track 1: number three is olivia soprano from the sopranos,

Track 1: and number four is joffrey from game of thrones i'm sorry i don't think any

Track 1: four of these tops i think you're right i think it's number one no no yeah and

Track 1: some of these other ones just like are evil like like montgomery burns from

Track 1: the simpsons is number eight like i could see that I mean.

Track 2: I love, you know, Monty's great, you know, a great villain, a really good foil

Track 2: for, you know, Springfield, but, you know.

Track 1: Yeah, some of these.

Track 2: I mean, I guess he did try to blot out the stuff.

Track 1: Yeah, he did some, like, yeah, or yeah. It has a couple other ones in the top

Track 1: ten are Gus Fring from Breaking Bad, the Borg from Star Trek Next Generation,

Track 1: which actually I could see being near the top.

Track 2: I'd buy that.

Track 1: And Catwoman from Batman. Yeah.

Track 1: I don't know. I guess you could also maybe go with necessarily the person playing

Track 1: that character in certain films, I guess. I don't know.

Track 1: I think Bob is probably worthy of the number one slot.

Track 2: Yeah, there's no doubt in my mind that Bob is like the quintessential,

Track 2: like the most horrifying, like everything that he represents,

Track 2: like from, you know, what he does through Leland to like even like the,

Track 2: you know, if you get into like the mythology of, you know, where he comes from

Track 2: and like how everything works, like there's nothing that even compares to.

Track 1: Like just look at his like you just look at his picture that they

Track 1: have on wikipedia for bob and like

Track 1: just look at his face and then you also like you said like look into

Track 1: just like what he i guess he doesn't like quote-unquote kill

Track 1: as many people but he also torments people

Track 1: and like indirectly is causing pain and suffering amongst

Track 1: like many other people you know like we don't even like you think of like laurel

Track 1: plumber's mother who is being tormented by bob in like different ways probably

Track 1: emotionally like we don't really ever see too much interaction between them

Track 1: but it's very clear to me that Leland is probably a horrible husband in addition to you know oh.

Track 2: Yeah absolutely and I mean there's Sarah's a really interesting character too uh just like,

Track 2: you know the the idea

Track 2: of like you know she I

Track 2: mean she to me it's pretty evident that she knows what's going on to a degree

Track 2: but like can't bring herself to face it but at the same time she's also like

Track 2: you know being drugged nightly by Leland uh and on top of that she's,

Track 2: you know give it you know following the

Track 2: the return we kind of learned that she's you

Track 2: know also inhabited by something um the I I've heard fairly convincing fan theories

Track 2: that it's judy that's like the the entity that's possessing her uh but that's

Track 2: a whole a whole tangent that i won't get.

Track 1: Into but.

Track 2: Uh because that we could be here all fucking night talking about.

Track 1: That yeah well i was gonna say like at the beginning like you could easily you

Track 1: could have podcasts and three part you know just on any of the like i i did

Track 1: them all on drive episode we were like we it was about an hour 40 minutes and

Track 1: at the end i realized i only covered like 20% of like my notes and topics and things.

Track 2: That's like, that's the case for anything David Lynch does.

Track 2: Like there's just so much depth to it that like it's impossible to,

Track 2: you know, cover everything in just like a single...

Track 2: Conversation like you have to like there's so much to dive into that you need

Track 2: to dedicate like you know episode.

Track 1: After episode.

Track 2: After episode to everything.

Track 1: It's also speaking of like another another theme like

Track 1: i mean then i also want to like curious some other things that like i hadn't

Track 1: like probably a hundred things a thousand things i didn't like even think

Track 1: of but one note that i wrote down about the film that

Track 1: i'm curious if you think would agree is that

Track 1: it seems like so one of like part of Laura's

Track 1: I know personality or things that she tells you

Track 1: know Donna like her confides into her is well I think

Track 1: this is before she maybe accepts the fact that like she almost wants to

Track 1: die at the end like she's she's she's like content with this she

Track 1: wants to leave Twin Peaks she wants to like have a life for herself somewhere

Track 1: else and it seems like everyone else in the film and then also in the show like

Track 1: all seems to fit into these like patriarchal stereotypes of you know like even

Track 1: though there's lots of like love triangles and everyone's cheating on someone

Track 1: else you know they're all these different things but it does feel like she wants to like break that,

Track 1: mold maybe or maybe it isn't maybe that's not

Track 1: consciously what she's thinking of but she wants to get out of the like of

Track 1: a place where you have this very

Track 1: like you said at the beginning like a middle class town like on all built around

Track 1: the single industry which then the mill burns down like this town is pretty

Track 1: much fucked at that point you know you know that's our industry so i don't know

Track 1: if you think that that like just like the idea of the patriarchal like structure

Track 1: of twin peaks i guess yeah.

Track 2: Well i mean you know you kind of get the the view of like the corruption of

Track 2: like the nuclear family through the palmers you know it's you know leland is you know the,

Track 2: abusive, overbearing, but like respectable.

Track 2: Externally, you know, father figure, you know,

Track 2: sarah's you know become this

Track 2: like docile like the way sarah

Track 2: has become docile and like drugged by leland is

Track 2: almost i think like a reflection of

Track 2: like you know the 50s housewife that would be

Track 2: prescribed you know like quaaludes or like some other sedative

Track 2: to like you know kind of give you

Track 2: know this like chemical acceptance of her

Track 2: position in the household you know where she you know might not

Track 2: you know generally wouldn't want to be like you

Track 2: know just chained down to like you

Track 2: know being a housewife or whatever you know

Track 2: it kind of like recreates that

Track 2: dynamic of like the you know

Track 2: outwardly cohesive family unit as like you know breaking down on the inside

Track 2: um and you know we kind of get the opposite of that when laura visits donna's house and you know,

Track 2: her her extended family and her chosen family is really more important uh in like you know kind of.

Track 2: Her attempts to you know escape what's happening

Track 2: to her at home you know you know.

Track 2: Doc hayward is you know you know.

Track 2: A beautiful loving father who you.

Track 2: Know he he what is it he says to laura like

Track 2: you know why is it you're not allowed to smoke in

Track 2: your own home why is it i'm a doctor and i don't allow smoking

Track 2: in my home but i allow you to smoke in my home and laura's

Track 2: like because you love me so much and it's like

Track 2: you know they have this like they have a relationship that

Track 2: laura should have with her own father

Track 2: but you know doesn't because of you

Track 2: know how both you know in

Track 2: terms of his every day who

Track 2: he is and also you know the factor of bob

Track 2: uh you know she she can't have

Track 2: that you know home life like even in like

Track 2: one of the deleted scenes there's a really good scene where sarah's coming

Track 2: home with groceries and laura's uh

Track 2: on her way out yeah she like takes the cigarette from

Track 2: her and is like you know they like you

Track 2: know we often don't get to see sarah in

Track 2: like that kind of like you know situation

Track 2: where she can be like you know light and

Track 2: you know have this like rapport with laura that's not just like her fearing

Track 2: for laura's well-being because you know leland's being a fucking menace at the

Track 2: dinner table or whatever um so it's you know like laura can't get these kind of.

Track 2: These you know the love and care

Track 2: that she should be getting at home through you

Track 2: know the traditional family unit so she's relying on kind of this extended chosen

Track 2: family that you know she's kind of built around her but at the same time you

Track 2: know it's still not enough to really you know save her from everything that's happening.

Track 1: Yeah well and i also even think about like some of the this

Track 1: isn't in the movie so it's not maybe directly as

Track 1: relevant but i think of like some of the other you mentioned uh like

Track 1: donna's father but then there's also even like bobby's dad

Track 1: was it major briggs major also in

Track 1: like his very weird military kind of

Track 1: way is also tries to be like this very like it's

Track 1: in a much more formal like shake your you know like shake

Track 1: your son's hand you know have these like chats at the you know the diner or

Track 1: whatever and he also seems to want to be like this good father too or maybe

Track 1: he is it's just that bobby like doesn't want to listen to him except for that

Track 1: one scene where he's yeah they have like that real heart to heart i think it's

Track 1: like the beginning of season two he tells.

Track 2: Him his vision and.

Track 1: Yeah his vision yes like his dream right right yeah.

Track 2: Vision as opposed as distinct from a dream.

Track 1: Yes right he.

Track 2: Makes sure uh yeah No, Major Briggs

Track 2: was really one of the most interesting characters of the show, I think.

Track 2: He like he clearly like early in the series, I can't remember which episode

Track 2: it is, but like one of the really early episodes, Bobby smoking at the dinner

Track 2: table and he slaps the cigarette out of his mouth.

Track 2: And like it's jarring

Track 2: because everything else

Track 2: about major briggs like is so

Track 2: like you know you would expect like a military dad to be

Track 2: like really gruff and like you know stern and

Track 2: like shouting and stuff uh he's like

Track 2: such a like he's more of a philosopher than

Track 2: like a like a military guy almost like you know the way he and it's like you

Track 2: can tell that he's been like trying to get through to bobby for such a long

Track 2: time that like you know this like moment of like what is you know,

Track 2: abuse from from a father is like so

Track 2: distinct from the kind of abuse that like

Track 2: you know not that you should like you know draw i guess like a difference you

Track 2: know like a hierarchy of like abuse or whatever but like it's such a different

Track 2: circumstance than what laura's family is going through that like.

Track 2: You can tell like everything major Briggs is like trying to do is what he views

Track 2: as like trying to connect to Bobby and like give Bobby,

Track 2: you know, a chance to like be a full person, I guess.

Track 2: And like Bobby just wants to be a shit.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: Uh, it's, it's, it's a really like, you know, it, it kind of,

Track 2: contrast in such a way that like it's hard not to like see laura's situation

Track 2: in an even more dire kind of context i think.

Track 1: The thing we haven't really talked about i guess um well actually before i even

Track 1: say that like i'm sure you had like you had a bunch of those too like is there any like,

Track 1: themes or pieces of the film that you know that you wanted to talk about that

Track 1: i've not that i've left out but that i didn't think of or that you know are worthy of uh,

Track 1: discussion because i'm like i'm just like looking at like the some of the other

Track 1: notes i have it's like things about the film and some of them are just like

Track 1: little like random questions like the ring and you know like little bits here

Track 1: and there like things you could things that have various you know beatings or

Track 1: don't have meetings or whatever yeah.

Track 2: I think like most of my notes are honestly just expansions expansion on the

Track 2: stuff you put in the notes but um you know one thing i think worth talking about

Track 2: with regards to like twin peaks as or even like david lynch's.

Track 2: Films in general um there's kind of

Track 2: this reading of them

Track 2: as like being very nostalgic and like

Track 2: kind of longing for you know simpler times and

Track 2: like you know things were better you know in the 50s or

Track 2: whatever uh which i think is kind of uh kind of a lazy reading of uh of lynch's

Track 2: films like he you know clearly does have you know this wistfulness for this image of what you know.

Track 2: You know wholesome like midwest americana

Track 2: was or whatever but like it's i think it

Track 2: comes with this understanding of like you know i was

Track 2: talking about kind of his you know kind of like

Track 2: dialectical view of things like you know

Track 2: the the thing containing its opposite like he i think

Track 2: does have like an innate understanding that like

Track 2: those things don't come without the the

Track 2: dark underside that he presents you

Track 2: know it's not like oh yeah we have this dark underside now

Track 2: it was so much better back then it's like no these two are inextricably linked

Track 2: and like his nostalgia is almost like um you know what like mark fisher would

Track 2: have talked about in like ghosts of my life or whatever as like you know this

Track 2: like lost future like you know there was,

Track 2: something that could have been but never was because of like these like systemic uh.

Track 2: Kind of forces that have just always existed as part of you know that americana,

Track 2: that he like seems so wistful for well.

Track 1: It does this for some reason remind me

Track 1: of this then we don't necessarily have to like talk about this at great

Track 1: length but it reminds me i ended up not talking about it

Track 1: on my we can decide if you want to keep this or not in the episode

Track 1: but there's there's an article that was fairly recently right after i think

Track 1: david lynch died uh i think it was in some shitty newspaper wall street journal

Track 1: something where it's basically calling like that david lynch was like the greatest

Track 1: conservative filmmaker did you see that going.

Track 2: Around you probably did i i don't know that i saw

Track 2: it around going around i do remember you mentioning

Track 2: it and like i've also like you know

Track 2: it's been talked about a lot like

Track 2: i know in the 80s he expressed an admiration for ronald

Track 2: reagan and stuff and like it was you know like even when you hear lynch talk

Track 2: about it it was wasn't that like you know he was in support of like you know

Track 2: the contras in nicaragua and like you know reagan funneling you know money to them and like,

Track 2: you know, selling weapons to Iran or whatever,

Track 2: or like, you know, like Reagan, you know,

Track 2: neoliberalizing everything and like slashing government spending and stuff.

Track 2: He kind of like, you know, Reagan was an actor, you know, he represented this,

Track 2: like this American, this image of Americana that like, you know,

Track 2: I was talking about that kind of does appear in Lynch's work.

Track 2: But like,

Track 2: I think his, like, the conservatism that people see in Lynch is more a, like,

Track 2: a reflection of those symbols rather than, like, any concrete political vision.

Track 2: Like, you know, if you hear Lynch, like in his later years, you know,

Track 2: Lynch was a Bernie supporter.

Track 2: He, you know, he did, uh, when he was doing his, uh, his weather reports on

Track 2: his YouTube channel, he did a black lives matter, uh, video.

Track 2: He uh i was

Track 2: uh the week after he passed

Track 2: i was reading or listening to the audiobook actually of

Track 2: his uh kind of hybrid biography where like

Track 2: his biographer would write a chapter and then he would write a chapter in

Track 2: response to that and like kind of expand on the things

Track 2: that were talked about uh by his biographer but

Track 2: he uh there uh in the audiobook he kind of just goes off on these like little

Track 2: tangents in his chapters that like weren't necessarily in the book and he's

Track 2: in one chapter he's talking about um he was location scouting i think for.

Track 2: An early seat like some early stuff in twin peaks and

Track 2: they were looking in northern california for some

Track 2: like forest to film in and they were

Track 2: having a hard time because like so much of it had been

Track 2: destroyed by wildfires and he's like you know and

Track 2: you know you have all these fucking morons talking about you know

Track 2: trying to say that global warming isn't real get get

Track 2: real you know open your fucking eyes people and then

Track 2: he like goes off on this little tangent about how everyone should meditate

Track 2: or whatever but like he like and like you

Track 2: can like hear like his anger in

Track 2: his voice when he's like talking about like you know

Track 2: this like you know like

Track 2: obviously global warming is real and it's

Track 2: a you know causing very real problems and he's

Track 2: and you know you know the wildfires are

Track 2: in la are ultimately what killed him uh because of you know complications from

Track 2: his emphysema or whatever but like you know like he very clearly and you know

Track 2: in the return you know there's that scene like the like quintessential twin

Track 2: peaks the return scene where He, you know,

Track 2: tells Denise that, you know, he told all of her, you know, clown comic colleagues

Track 2: to fix their hearts or die.

Track 2: You know, he very clearly has this, like, you know, a progressive sense of,

Track 2: like, justice and, like, you know, he talks about it.

Track 2: He talks about freedom in a lot of things throughout, you know,

Track 2: anytime anyone asks him, like, something that's kind of political,

Track 2: it always comes, for him, comes down to freedom.

Track 2: And I think his conception of freedom is not the individualist,

Track 2: conservative, libertarian kind of freedom.

Track 2: Like, he has an understanding of the connectedness of...

Track 1: He has these ideas. So maybe the reading sometimes of like him being a conservative,

Track 1: most of the articles that I've seen about that are typically written by conservatives.

Track 1: And it's very easy to say like a conservative watching a certain film might

Track 1: get a completely different message than someone who is either just a liberal

Track 1: or maybe, you know, but communists in this case, whatever.

Track 1: And i think it's easy to misinterpret some of his like waxing poetic for like a nostalgia.

Track 2: Of america.

Track 1: Isn't necessarily like i want it to be back when it

Track 1: was the 50s and there was a you know a single

Track 1: you know man who could earn an income and everyone is like prescribes these

Track 1: ways i think like that's just like with the what he that's like the way he bounced

Track 1: like the opposite as you're talking about the dialectical aspect of his films

Track 1: like that's the one side of it but like that's that's the easy side that everyone

Track 1: sees it's the underbelly of the.

Track 2: Cruelness.

Track 1: That no one sees.

Track 2: Yeah it's it's a very surface level reading that doesn't do any really uh really

Track 2: like deep thought on like the meaning of like what he's presenting in the films

Track 2: and it's and like to an extent like i feel like.

Track 2: You know the the idea that like you know people are going to read in,

Track 2: like lynch very like consciously kind

Track 2: of like leaves his films open to interpretation like that's

Track 2: you know one of the most like infamous aspects of who

Track 2: david lynch was as a person was that like he's like

Track 2: almost like an embodiment of like the roland barth's

Track 2: idea of like the death of the author you know he's very

Track 2: much wants to like you know

Track 2: he makes the film and like he said you know many many

Track 2: times like you know people want you to talk about the film but

Track 2: the film is the talking so like you know he wants

Track 2: people to like bring their own experiences to their

Track 2: understanding of his work and like you know he's never

Track 2: he was never you know

Track 2: prescriptive about like what his work

Track 2: means you know very very famously you know

Track 2: against like when he asked using to like yeah like

Track 2: you know you know eraser heads my most spiritual movie can you elaborate on

Track 2: that no you know and like i was reading uh before we started recording i was

Track 2: reading an interview i think it was from when moholland drive came out and like they asked him to.

Track 2: Uh i think they were asking about lost highway and like

Track 2: the dissociative fugue description and if they could

Track 2: he could expand on that and he was just like no uh but

Track 2: you know he was very happy to just say no like

Track 2: you whatever you like you know

Track 2: he might he would on occasion tell

Track 2: you if your idea about something was

Track 2: like completely off base like i think uh i can't remember what it was but there

Track 2: was like some like really out there idea about something in firewalk with me

Track 2: i think and uh or might have been the return or something but like they asked

Track 2: you know oh is this what that means and he's like no that's bullshit well.

Track 1: I i mean i i can't like i i think i appreciate artists who,

Track 1: do like that is to me like it also i appreciate them doing that i think of like

Track 1: another another like of the best filmmakers you know that ever lived as like

Track 1: andre tarkovsky like he also famously wouldn't tell you really what he was doing

Track 1: in films like he would like in his,

Track 1: autobiography he like would touch on things be like this is the kind of thing

Track 1: i was thinking about like making you know mirror or something but he's not going

Track 1: to be like in this you know in this scene or like in this like okay this movie is yeah.

Track 2: Like he i he very famously uh Like Tarkovsky very famously rejected the idea

Track 2: that his films contain symbols.

Track 2: Like he was like, you know, you know, in, you know, when he shows the barn on

Track 2: fire in mirror, you know, that that doesn't mean anything beyond a barn,

Track 2: like the experience of your barn burning.

Track 1: But there's like a book that can be written about just that.

Track 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like you could do so much like, you know,

Track 2: and any like anyone watching that, you know, this is, you know,

Track 2: he doesn't like that either.

Track 1: He hated it.

Track 2: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I, I like, I have a friend who studied Tarkovsky in film school.

Track 2: Uh, like she did, uh, like her, I think it was her master's,

Track 2: uh, where she like kind of focused on Tarkovsky's work.

Track 2: And like, I was asking her, like, you know, what would you recommend?

Track 2: Like, if I want to like, kind of understand Tarkovsky's films,

Track 2: like on a deeper level, what would you recommend?

Track 2: I like read, like, is there any criticism out there? and she was like honestly

Track 2: just read sculpting in time like he like everything you need to know tarkovsky

Track 2: said has like said in like his own words in sculpting in time and then just watch the films.

Track 1: That book is i mean it's really good like that book is uh

Track 1: and like i i in the

Track 1: in other like the series i've been doing on some

Track 1: of the tarkovsky films one of the things that if you have let's do

Track 1: it you should go listen to that but what i was going to mention is in the i

Track 1: know we're not talking a different director but i'll just finish this one

Track 1: thing is that he like in the beginning of the

Track 1: book he has a uh he's talking about like letters he

Track 1: gets from fans and uh you know uh complaining

Track 1: about how like you know there'll be these critics who will

Track 1: have 10 different reasons for like why like

Track 1: this scene in mirror is what it is like what it means to me and

Track 1: then are like arguing about and then it'll be like this very working class person

Track 1: will send him a letter being like i saw a mirror and it was like the most touching

Track 1: amazing thing i've ever seen like it means so much to me and he like he appreciates

Track 1: that so much more than these like idiot critics that are arguing about things

Track 1: and i bet lynch has probably felt similarly.

Track 2: I honestly like do i've always like tarkovsky is my other like all-time favorite

Track 2: filmmaker and i've always like kind of seen a sort of uh like kinship between

Track 2: them in the way they're so skilled at being,

Track 2: like creating work that expresses how like thought works like you know mirror is like.

Track 2: Works exactly the way like memory works.

Track 2: Like you watch mirror you like oh yeah that's how you know.

Track 2: I remember things you know that's how like

Track 2: you know that's how like my thought process when

Track 2: i'm like remembering my past works

Track 2: and like you know you see that in lynch as well when like you

Track 2: know any like anytime you see

Track 2: a dream sequence in like your

Track 2: average like hollywood movie or whatever like no

Track 2: one like take like christopher nolan for example

Track 2: like inception is a movie ostensibly about

Track 2: dreams but clearly has no concept of

Track 2: like dream logic uh like he

Track 2: doesn't like you know for him the dream

Track 2: is just you know five layers of a

Track 2: standard movie stacked on one another and you kind

Track 2: of like jump between them but they're all very like you know

Track 2: clearly delineated and there's

Track 2: like you know and like

Track 2: even it's funny to like even compare that to like

Track 2: the source material like he ripped off paprika like satoshi

Track 2: kohn's uh paprika to like a very

Track 2: large extent for that movie and like the like

Track 2: in paprika you like see the

Track 2: function the workings of a dream so much more clearly than you would in uh in

Track 2: inception but like in lynch's films like dreams are like a really crucial part

Track 2: of what lynch is like doing in most of like from like Twin Peaks onward, basically.

Track 2: You know, like there are dreams and stuff in his earlier work,

Track 2: but like the way like from Twin Peaks onward, his films become these almost

Track 2: like dream narratives in like.

Track 2: You know the way they're structured the

Track 2: way they function the way like connections are drawn between

Track 2: like different things it like shows

Track 2: like such a deep understanding of like you

Track 2: know you know he's very interested in like consciousness and like you know his

Track 2: meditation practice is like very rooted in like the idea of exploring his own

Track 2: consciousness and like how you know thought his thoughts are connected to like

Track 2: external ideas and like that kind of thing and like it just,

Track 2: clearly like you know in in the same way that tarkovsky does understands like

Track 2: the way that these things work on like a much deeper level than we usually get

Track 2: from you know other uh you know other filmmakers who might be interested in

Track 2: exploring those kind of themes it's.

Track 1: Like kind of interesting how the other film we did was the uh eyes wide shut

Track 1: the stanley like stanley krupik's last film which also so deeply as you mentioned

Track 1: like has these like these dreams and what is a dream was reality like the like

Track 1: there it's almost like in a weird.

Track 2: Yeah i mean the novel it's based on is called dream story it's.

Track 1: Almost like i mean almost fortuitous or whatever you want to say like doing

Track 1: that film and then doing i mean you guess you could i guess maybe inlet empire

Track 1: would have been like even more so like maybe.

Track 2: Connected in some.

Track 1: Way because that's more of the darker tone than uh i guess this film is kind

Track 1: of dark in in many ways like in a in,

Track 1: yeah i don't know i just was thinking about those things like it's like the it's very it yeah and.

Track 2: I mean uh yes david lynch was like stanley kubrick considered eraser head his favorite film.

Track 1: Oh i didn't realize like stanley.

Track 2: Stanley kubrick was a huge huge david lynch fan and like he apparently would

Track 2: show eraser head to the cast of the shining to like set.

Track 1: The mood for,

Track 1: for.

Track 2: For filming the shining so like there's you know definitely an affinity like

Track 2: their their films are you know very different but i think you know there there

Track 2: was an affinity between them uh in a lot of ways.

Track 1: That's one i guess if you think about it then though because the eyes wide check

Track 1: came out in 1999 so that was well after the only films that lynch had made after

Track 1: that were the uh you know the the return of twin peaks inland empire and uh

Track 1: mulholland drive so drive.

Track 2: Maybe the straight story.

Track 1: Oh yeah i'm not sure if the straight story.

Track 2: Was out before.

Track 1: That might have been you're right before because i was thinking like yeah

Track 1: you could see then potentially like the influences in

Track 1: eyes wide shut from you know other david lynch where even if it wasn't like

Track 1: a direct line like the influence seems seems there and actually this is completely

Track 1: unrelated but i was seeing something about the someone posted some screenshots

Track 1: from the substance and from different david lynch films did you see that yeah.

Track 2: There's there's that and also i've seen a similar post actually of shots from

Track 2: the substance that are like directly referencing cuba.

Track 1: The shining with the hallway yeah yeah yeah it's kind of crazy and like and.

Track 2: Then like to bring that full circle uh like when you watch the return,

Track 2: there's a lot of stuff in the return that like is very deliberately referencing Kubrick as well. Like.

Track 2: There's like obvious like you know the obvious one is

Track 2: like the the nuclear bomb explosion or whatever uh as

Track 2: as like a reference to dr strange love but also in

Track 2: uh i can't remember which episode it's in but like in the scene where richard

Track 2: uh attacks his grandmother and

Track 2: uh like steel is like

Track 2: you know trying to get money from her and stuff like the way

Track 2: that's shot is like very reminiscent of in

Track 2: a clockwork orange when like alex and the

Track 2: druves like do their home invasions and attack you know the people in the homes

Track 2: like shot on like this like very like wide angle handheld kind of they're like

Track 2: very visually like similar and like kind of like tonally similar as well yeah.

Track 1: I wonder if someone needs to write a book about like you could you know lynch

Track 1: and stanley Cause someone already has, maybe, I don't know.

Track 2: Oh, I'm sure they have. And like, you know, Lynch was very, uh,

Track 2: has always been like very open about like his influences, like from, it's interesting.

Track 2: I was watching, um, there were kind of like two video essay series about Twin

Track 2: Peaks that I really like.

Track 2: There's like Joel Baco's journey through Twin Peaks series, which is really great.

Track 2: And then um when i found more recently it came

Track 2: out like just after the return ended but

Track 2: i only found it like kind of recently on youtube uh by it's on a channel called

Track 2: corn pone flicks which is like a terrible channel name but like really like

Track 2: good like textual analysis of like what's happening like in the return or whatever but um there's.

Track 2: Uh, I can't remember which one it was. I think it might've been in one of the

Track 2: corn pone flicks videos.

Track 2: He's talking about, uh, the influences that, uh, Lynch and Frost both kind of

Track 2: bring to understanding.

Track 2: Yeah, it was the corn pone flicks. Cause they were talking about,

Track 2: I think he does a video about what Judy is.

Track 2: And uh he's talking about how

Track 2: you know frost has all these like

Track 2: kind of esoteric occult influences that he

Track 2: brings to the show but like lynch's influences are

Track 2: just like very directly old hollywood films you know

Track 2: like the character of gordon cole is a character

Track 2: from sunset boulevard which like in

Track 2: in the return we yeah we we he directly

Track 2: like acknowledges that when you know dougie sees

Track 2: uh sunset boulevard on on

Track 2: the tv and you know what characters like get me

Track 2: gordon cole or whatever and you know kind of spark something in dougie

Track 2: but also like um the name

Track 2: judy um is seemingly

Track 2: a reference to someone in

Track 2: vertigo i haven't seen vertigo in a really long time so

Track 2: i don't really remember like i can't remember what was a character name

Track 2: or an actor name uh but like yeah he

Track 2: draws out a really good connection between like who

Track 2: judy is and like how she relates

Track 2: to laura and stuff through vertigo and it's

Track 2: like really really interesting to like that you know one of the key ways to

Track 2: understand lynch's work is to understand like where he draws those ideas from

Track 2: externally so like and you know.

Track 2: He's always like Laura Laura is named after

Track 2: you know the Hitchcock film Laura and you know the idea of like Laura's portrait

Track 2: is taken straight from that as well so like it's it's really interesting to

Track 2: like see where those ideas come from and like how willing Lynch is to just be

Track 2: like yeah this is this is where this comes from you know.

Track 1: Yeah that's true I'll throw out this

Track 1: to the other book so the my guest from the Mulholland Drive

Track 1: he's an author Mike Miley he just just released

Track 1: a book like maybe a month ago maybe

Track 1: a little more david lynch's american dreamscape and

Track 1: it like brings in like music literature and cinema

Track 1: so each uh chapter it relates one of lynch's films to whether it's a book or

Track 1: an album and different things so it's definitely interesting uh i i only just

Track 1: ordered it so sorry mike i didn't order it when it first came out but i'm gonna

Track 1: i want to read this because what we know.

Track 2: I i listened to yeah i listened to that episode when it came out it was i'm

Track 2: really excited to pick up a.

Track 1: Oh yeah so like we talked about one of the chapters which was mahalon driving

Track 1: didn't uh nathaniel westcruise was that yeah.

Track 2: I'm definitely uh excited to to get my hands on a copy of that one um.

Track 1: It's sold out actually on his uh on the oh

Track 1: shit it's not at least on the the the bloomsbury website

Track 1: you probably could get it somewhere else other than like a non-amazon source

Track 1: somewhere else probably i'll put a link in the in the notes for that as well

Track 1: perhaps if i can find or i can just reach out to him and ask him but um yeah

Track 1: like i said at the beginning like it's easy for us to uh for any lynch film to just,

Track 1: talk for hours but i don't know if you had any you know parting words on you

Track 1: know it doesn't this will have to be like anything we talked about so far just

Track 1: you know your why someone should,

Track 1: watch again you can't watch this before you

Track 1: watch the show so you have to make a commitment first to watch the show but

Track 1: why would like someone who maybe hasn't like i asked i think i asked in the

Track 1: other one like what would be the most accessible david lynch content to watch

Track 1: and i think we landed on twin peaks would be the best if you're not looking

Track 1: to watch a movie but if you're looking to watch.

Track 2: A movie.

Track 1: It might actually be mulholland drive or elephant man just because they're a

Track 1: little bit more less like.

Track 2: Yeah i i would be inclined to agree with uh with

Track 2: that but as far as like why someone might want

Track 2: to watch twin peaks like i can't think

Track 2: of any other piece of like

Track 2: like body of work like a coherent

Track 2: like piece of media that spans

Track 2: like such a broad like it's

Track 2: everything from like you know

Track 2: a pastiche of soap operas to a murder

Track 2: mystery to the like most unhinged

Track 2: surrealist horror you've ever seen to like

Track 2: slapstick comedy like it

Track 2: encompasses like you will experience every possible

Track 2: emotion possible like in in

Track 2: like like it really like hits you

Track 2: on like so many different levels at like in

Track 2: like such pure ways like it like you

Track 2: know you will be like emotionally devastated you will like laugh harder than

Track 2: you've ever laughed before you will be terrified you will like then there's

Track 2: like there are like so many like one of the things i think that you know people

Track 2: who like try to emulate david lynch's work or like you know try to you know.

Track 2: You know there were so many attempts to like create a new

Track 2: twin peaks like in the aftermath of like twin peaks

Track 2: you know like um there was

Track 2: uh oliver stone made wild palms and

Track 2: like you know like people like the

Track 2: x-files was kind of you know uh would

Track 2: never have happened without Twin Peaks and like nothing that

Track 2: came after Twin Peaks really like captured the

Track 2: like core human element of like you know

Track 2: character and place and like just like

Track 2: creating a world that like

Track 2: feels like for all like the

Track 2: horrible things that are happening in it like that you

Track 2: also like feel really invested in you know he like really like draws you in

Track 2: to like you know the characters are you know as important as like the events

Track 2: that are happening around them and like you know you feel like you're even like the most like,

Track 2: you know uh arch kind of like bizarre characters feel like real in twin peaks i think.

Track 1: Yeah i think all of those are like it's

Track 1: a great point because it's it runs as you said like it has

Track 1: so many different it's like but

Track 1: yeah i mean well but one of the things that someone told

Track 1: me that i think made it made more sense when i first had

Track 1: like bought them like i think it was my friend was showing me the first episode

Track 1: he's like oh we're gonna watch this like it's very different he's like when

Track 1: you if you think about watching this like you're watching a soap opera but one

Track 1: that's like actually really good you know yeah that's kind of a good way to

Track 1: approach it because it's very the way that it's like kind of like the music

Track 1: and the way that it's sort of filmed and the style yeah it's.

Track 2: Like really steeped in melodrama but like not in an ironic way.

Track 1: Right like.

Track 2: You can tell that like there's you know it's it's not making fun of soap operas

Track 2: it's very much a soap opera it just happens to be a soap opera made by people

Track 2: who are really good at what they're doing.

Track 1: Exactly exactly yeah it's it's enjoyable

Track 1: like even if even like i think

Track 1: i was someone was posting they're re-watching it as well and they said like

Track 1: once you get past laura palmer's murder find out what happens in second season

Track 1: like there's a lot of i guess you could say silliness and silly little plots

Track 1: that happen after that but they're all like really fun and interesting yeah Like.

Track 2: I mean, aside from, you know, like I could do without like Ben reenacting the civil war or whatever.

Track 1: Like, uh, like going back to school.

Track 2: Uh, I, I, I, I actually kind of love that storyline as fucked up as it is.

Track 2: Like, you know, it's just like, you know, the idea of like sending this, like, uh,

Track 2: adult woman who's got who's experienced you know just come out of a coma after a suicide attempt,

Track 2: who now thinks you know she's who's like you know gone back to being 18 it's

Track 2: like the idea that like just sending her back to school and like letting her

Track 2: like live out her teenage life is in any way inappropriate with superhuman strength

Track 2: as well yeah with superhuman well,

Track 2: she she did uh kind of seem to have superhuman strength

Track 2: before that you know there's the scene where she like gets mad

Track 2: and like breaks the that's true the handles on the rower so

Track 2: like uh they they set that up early actually but

Track 2: uh but yeah like the fact that like you know for

Track 2: all the like you know when you think about it it's like

Track 2: clearly like a really fucked up situation but it's also just like you know if

Track 2: you don't think about it too deeply really funny and entertaining um but like

Track 2: yeah like it after the reveal of the killer like it kind of becomes.

Track 2: Like you know you they want

Track 2: to start setting up like a new core mystery

Track 2: and like they kind of like start setting up the windamorel stuff

Track 2: and like the the lodge stuff and like that

Track 2: but like they it's almost like they're afraid to commit

Track 2: to that like i would imagine because of like you

Track 2: know the pressure that the the network put on

Track 2: them to like you know reveal you know

Track 2: like they the network clearly didn't want too much mystery uh in their mystery

Track 2: show so like they kind of like started like spinning their wheels trying to

Track 2: like figure out you know what are some other like story avenues we can go down

Track 2: and they end up you know turning the show into like a slapstick sitcom for you know,

Track 2: for like a third of the season or whatever no.

Track 1: But i think that i think that what we're saying is you should you should invest

Track 1: in watching all of twin peaks and the movie because it's very it's rewarding to uh.

Track 2: Yeah it's rewarding on like multiple levels like you you really come to like,

Track 2: like i i can't it's it's like i can't imagine my life without having seen twin peaks.

Track 1: Yeah that's uh and i would say it's so you can watch it i think on i don't know

Track 1: what streaming service is on but it's like unless you pay for the one that has

Track 1: commercials so this is a this would be a plug for people who should you should

Track 1: own physical media because you can buy the full set which i think was just pre-released

Track 1: which i actually just got.

Track 2: Yeah yeah so it has like 22 you know.

Track 1: Discs or something crazy and it was like 50 bucks it's like the greatest 50

Track 1: dollar set like i think you could like ever buy.

Track 2: Yeah so and it comes with like a million special features that are all really

Track 2: good it has missing pieces it has.

Track 1: This film too it has when people walk with me in it which is just a bonus because

Track 1: i already had it on its own individual one but so i guess you have it twice.

Track 2: Oh yeah i have i've been holding

Track 2: off getting i need to get the criteria and collection copy but i

Track 2: could i've been holding off because i have like the complete mystery box

Track 2: set but i really need to like i i

Track 2: try not to own too much stuff because i

Track 2: have a fairly small apartment but and like i sold

Track 2: a lot of my physical media before i moved

Track 2: but uh like i have been

Track 2: amassing a david lynch collection to the point where i have like probably four

Track 2: different copies of Eraserhead and like like I have the Eraserhead 2000 DVD

Track 2: that's like signed by Lynch and I have like the lime green box set that has

Track 2: Eraserhead I have the Criterion Eraserhead so like I need like,

Track 2: I have this like internal conflict

Track 2: of like wanting to own every version of every David Lynch release.

Track 2: Like, do I need to have every version of every David Lynch release?

Track 1: One of those things. Somewhere in storage I have, I think I was telling you,

Track 1: I have the like the Twin Peaks season one and two VHS tapes.

Track 1: And I also have the Eraserhead on VHS, which is the first time I had watched

Track 1: it. I bought it on eBay like in 2000.

Track 1: I don't think it's an official copy. i think it might be like a bootleg because it's.

Track 2: Like it.

Track 1: Has like a label on it but it's not like you know where it has the label where

Track 1: it tells you like if you copyright this you will be you know like you know.

Track 2: That kind of thing whatever the old.

Track 1: Labels would be on vhs's but.

Track 2: And like david david lynch's films have like a really like

Track 2: up until like probably 2006 when like

Track 2: twin peaks got its like official dvd

Track 2: release it was like really hard to get your hands on like so much david lynch

Track 2: stuff uh like i know the uh like the dvd of firewalk with me when that came

Track 2: out there were all kinds of like issues with that in terms of like the um.

Track 2: Like the aspect ratio and like the uh

Track 2: sound edit in the pink room scene where like

Track 2: they had actually like boosted the the

Track 2: uh dialogue levels so you could actually hear what they're saying

Track 2: and stuff and like you know

Track 2: twin peaks was like impossible to come by until that

Track 2: dvd set came out i like i saw

Track 2: twin peaks on tv uh on this like satellite

Track 2: channel called scream up here in canada which like

Track 2: shows like horror and thriller series

Track 2: and it would like it it

Track 2: showed like twin peaks in its entirety like shortly

Track 2: after i had like gotten into david lynch so i was like i dove into that like

Track 2: i was like blowing off like my friends would like message me on icq be like

Track 2: let's go skateboarding i'd be like no i have to watch twin peaks fuck off like

Track 2: it like but it was and like there was no way i would have been able to see twin

Track 2: peaks otherwise if like scream hadn't been airing,

Track 2: those and like you know i remember like trying to track down like lost highway

Track 2: i made my own like dbd of lost highway because there was like a european release

Track 2: that i like torrented that like there was no like good north american widescreen

Track 2: release of it and like so like like.

Track 2: From like the like throughout the 90s and like up until like probably the mid

Track 2: 2000s it was like outside of mulholland drive it was borderline impossible to

Track 2: get your hands on like a lot of david lynch's work that.

Track 1: Yeah that's it's such a like and now you like you said you can get there's constant versions and.

Track 2: Everything where.

Track 1: You can have, you know, yeah.

Track 2: I mean, like I even remember, uh, like I emailed, uh,

Track 2: the Criterion collection, like in the early 2000s, like probably 2004,

Track 2: they're like, hey, why don't you guys have any David Lynch films?

Track 2: And they were like, they emailed me back and they were like,

Track 2: it's because like, it's so difficult to get the rights to them.

Track 1: Yeah. Anyway. But, um, yeah, we could, again, we could talk about this for,

Track 1: for a long time, but, uh, Jonathan, uh, thank you for, uh, coming on to talk

Track 1: about Twin Peaks as a whole, but mostly the Twin Peaks firewalk with me.

Track 2: Yeah thanks again for having me it was uh it was intimidating honestly like trying trying to,

Track 2: like coming on to talk about eyes wide shut was like a breeze compared to like,

Track 2: how like there's so much like well there's 48 episodes in a movie,

Track 2: yeah and like it every every single aspect of it has like so much depth that

Track 2: you can go into that it's so impossible to cover that i was just like stressing

Track 2: before i came out i was like this is going to be either like i'm going to have

Track 2: either nothing to say or like way too much to say so i'm glad i had enough to say it.

Track 1: I felt the same way where i was like putting together like kind of like a note

Track 1: outline that i usually do.

Track 2: For things.

Track 1: And i'm like there's not much on here but like i have all these other things

Track 1: i want to talk about but i know that if i just put like two items on this list you probably could.

Track 2: Still talk about it for.

Track 1: Like an hour because as you said like you could have just talked about dear

Track 1: meadow for an episode you know or you know because there's things we didn't talk about.

Track 1: We didn't talk about the whole... We didn't talk about a lot of the things that

Track 1: you learn later and the part of the things that fit the mystery that you don't find.

Track 1: So that's a reason for anyone out there to watch 48 episodes and a film because you should just do it.

Track 1: This is your reminder. I guess if you listen to this, you probably have seen

Track 1: it, although I could see maybe you've only seen part of it. If you watched the first...

Track 1: Sees it if you know who killed laura palmer i guess it would be okay to watch

Track 1: this like if you already knew from just knowing it would be but still watch the whole thing.

Track 2: Yeah because hearing about all of the different aspects of like the lodge and

Track 2: stuff is so complex and like inexplicable that like no matter how much we talk

Track 2: about it you're not going to understand the thing that's going on anyway.

Track 1: That's true yeah i mean like you can even watch all of it and like it just yeah

Track 1: there's there's so much uh so much out there but yeah but we'll um you know

Track 1: maybe maybe next time as like a brain uh you need to do something that's a little

Track 1: more something sorry i meant to say less like less uh let's.

Track 2: Let's do something really stupid next time i'm on.

Track 1: Well no that it's funny recently i've been doing a lot of uh episodes that have

Track 1: just just because of like the world being the the way the world is now i've

Track 1: been doing some like more uh i don't know softer movies i like Austin Powers.

Track 1: I have one coming out next week, which will already be out when you hear this

Track 1: on Beavis and Butthead to America.

Track 1: Those are just fun movies that you just got to... It's no Twin Peaks,

Track 1: but it doesn't always have to be.

Track 1: Cool. But yeah, so anyone listening should go watch Twin Peaks,

Track 1: as we've said repeatedly in this discussion.

Track 1: But Jonathan, thanks again for coming on.

Track 2: Thanks for having me.

Track 1: Of course. And you can again, you can follow the podcast wherever you're currently

Track 1: listening right now, and we'll catch you next time.