1 00:00:00,875 --> 00:00:03,253 What we've tended to do is pull all the, 2 00:00:03,253 --> 00:00:08,091 like, nasty, sort of ugly beast imagery from Revelation 3 00:00:08,383 --> 00:00:09,884 and apply it to whatever political opponents we have 4 00:00:09,884 --> 00:00:12,303 and apply it to whatever political opponents we have 5 00:00:13,304 --> 00:00:13,888 with the 6 00:00:13,888 --> 00:00:17,851 sort of implication that whichever side we're on 7 00:00:17,851 --> 00:00:22,564 is headed up by some good, you know, right. 8 00:00:22,564 --> 00:00:23,857 That dichotomy. 9 00:00:23,857 --> 00:00:27,235 But you even mentioned it before, how sometimes you hear things like 10 00:00:27,235 --> 00:00:30,238 if we don't get our guy in, 11 00:00:30,321 --> 00:00:31,823 but that's kind of strange, right? 12 00:00:31,823 --> 00:00:35,994 Because in a sense, the story of the Bible 13 00:00:35,994 --> 00:00:39,622 and the story of Revelation is that we have our guy. 14 00:00:45,712 --> 00:00:46,463 Well, Paul 15 00:00:46,463 --> 00:00:49,799 Lamicela, welcome back to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast. 16 00:00:49,966 --> 00:00:54,054 So we've done a few episodes with you on the Book of Revelation, 17 00:00:54,512 --> 00:00:55,930 and people can check those out. 18 00:00:55,930 --> 00:00:57,682 There'll be down in the description, but today 19 00:00:57,682 --> 00:00:59,267 we want to get a little more specific. 20 00:00:59,267 --> 00:01:02,645 I think it's the most requested that we've had on any topic. 21 00:01:02,645 --> 00:01:04,939 Is have you back on do more on the book of Revelation. 22 00:01:04,939 --> 00:01:06,816 So we're going to be doing that today. 23 00:01:06,816 --> 00:01:09,986 And there's one specifically that we're going to get into 24 00:01:10,487 --> 00:01:16,284 that is this whole realm of the beast and earthly kingdoms that are involved 25 00:01:16,284 --> 00:01:20,163 in, in this, this honestly kind of bizarre book. Yes. 26 00:01:21,456 --> 00:01:22,290 that that's here. 27 00:01:22,290 --> 00:01:25,251 So we're going to take just that, because I know the one we did 28 00:01:25,251 --> 00:01:28,254 before was more like, how do we read this book as a whole? 29 00:01:28,254 --> 00:01:30,048 but we're going to zone in a bit more. 30 00:01:30,048 --> 00:01:32,258 So why don't you just take it from here? 31 00:01:32,258 --> 00:01:34,803 we'll launch into it and we'll see where this, where we end up. 32 00:01:34,803 --> 00:01:39,265 Yeah, well, one of the things that, we we were saying before, 33 00:01:40,141 --> 00:01:42,727 is that reading Revelation 34 00:01:42,727 --> 00:01:45,939 this way, hopefully our listeners have all watched 35 00:01:45,939 --> 00:01:48,983 at least the first episode on Revelation that we did a couple months ago. 36 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:51,152 it it means 37 00:01:51,152 --> 00:01:54,155 that Revelation is a book that has deep significance 38 00:01:54,239 --> 00:01:57,242 and practical application for Christians today. 39 00:01:57,575 --> 00:02:01,746 And I think the intersection that I want to look, we want to look at right now 40 00:02:01,746 --> 00:02:05,583 is, is, is how does Revelation speak to our thinking 41 00:02:05,583 --> 00:02:08,586 as specifically Americans, 42 00:02:08,711 --> 00:02:09,963 about politics? 43 00:02:09,963 --> 00:02:10,505 Oh boy. 44 00:02:10,505 --> 00:02:13,800 And just I'm not entirely sure when this episode is going to be released, 45 00:02:13,883 --> 00:02:17,053 but we're, we're right in the heat of an election season right now. 46 00:02:17,053 --> 00:02:20,265 You know, we're two months out from it from a presidential elections. 47 00:02:20,765 --> 00:02:24,978 so I mean, we're hearing all the typical things that we hear in the American, 48 00:02:25,687 --> 00:02:28,523 evangelical scene especially, but where it's like, 49 00:02:28,523 --> 00:02:31,442 who's God's candidate and all of this stuff. 50 00:02:31,442 --> 00:02:32,861 I don't want to get into any of this business 51 00:02:32,861 --> 00:02:35,071 because it's just it's just a mess as it always is. 52 00:02:35,071 --> 00:02:37,532 But what are some principles that we're going to pull out of here? 53 00:02:37,532 --> 00:02:40,493 So And and I think this is, this is something where, 54 00:02:41,870 --> 00:02:44,038 I think we have Anabaptists. 55 00:02:44,038 --> 00:02:46,457 I think traditionally, 56 00:02:46,457 --> 00:02:48,376 have been told 57 00:02:48,376 --> 00:02:51,296 not to get involved in politics 58 00:02:51,296 --> 00:02:54,299 and because that's our stance, 59 00:02:54,674 --> 00:02:58,845 we then, don't give anymore, like teaching on how to think about politics 60 00:02:59,262 --> 00:03:01,472 because the assumption is, well, we just we stay out of it. 61 00:03:01,472 --> 00:03:06,186 But, you know, spoiler alert, we actually don't, right? 62 00:03:06,186 --> 00:03:08,980 We all we all think about politics, at least have opinions. 63 00:03:08,980 --> 00:03:10,565 And that's not that's not wrong. 64 00:03:10,565 --> 00:03:13,943 But the problem is I think and this this isn't going to like address all that. 65 00:03:14,402 --> 00:03:18,907 But I think this is something I think that needs to be taught more is, 66 00:03:19,741 --> 00:03:23,995 because I feel like there's this gap, there's this empty space where we say, 67 00:03:24,370 --> 00:03:27,373 well, we don't get involved in politics, and that's it. 68 00:03:27,582 --> 00:03:30,585 That's the only thing we have to say about politics is stay out of it. 69 00:03:30,710 --> 00:03:33,713 But then on the ground level, we all have political opinions. 70 00:03:33,922 --> 00:03:37,550 And some of us, some people, some people in our audience vote, 71 00:03:37,550 --> 00:03:38,760 some probably a lot don't. 72 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:39,552 But some, you know, there's 73 00:03:39,552 --> 00:03:42,138 there's a there's a variety of things that happen in our circles. 74 00:03:43,181 --> 00:03:44,265 but because there's 75 00:03:44,265 --> 00:03:47,644 no teaching on like, how you should actually think about politics, 76 00:03:48,102 --> 00:03:54,359 I think that vacuum is filled by radio podcasts like the same. 77 00:03:54,567 --> 00:03:55,068 Yeah. 78 00:03:55,068 --> 00:03:56,819 The world ends up teaching us, 79 00:03:56,819 --> 00:03:59,822 our society ends up teaching us how to think about politics. 80 00:03:59,906 --> 00:04:02,492 because there's this vacuum, and that's that's very real. 81 00:04:02,492 --> 00:04:04,494 I mean, I've ran into that all the time. 82 00:04:04,494 --> 00:04:06,996 It's like, oh, well, I don't really get involved, but, 83 00:04:06,996 --> 00:04:09,624 you know, I'll listen to, you know, Ben Shapiro or whatever, 84 00:04:09,624 --> 00:04:11,084 you know, and it's like, okay. 85 00:04:11,084 --> 00:04:14,254 So that is still informing you, you know, one way or another. 86 00:04:14,295 --> 00:04:14,712 Yeah. 87 00:04:14,712 --> 00:04:17,715 We almost have no way of, 88 00:04:17,966 --> 00:04:21,177 of saying, okay, let's think through how to think politically. 89 00:04:21,177 --> 00:04:23,721 Right. Because our official stance is we won't get involved. Right. 90 00:04:23,721 --> 00:04:27,225 So I think we need more, we need to acknowledge look, 91 00:04:27,934 --> 00:04:30,228 we we all do have political opinions or not 92 00:04:30,228 --> 00:04:33,231 all of us, but a lot of us do have political opinions. 93 00:04:33,273 --> 00:04:36,484 And, are we the political opinions that we have? 94 00:04:36,484 --> 00:04:39,487 Are they being shaped by whatever, 95 00:04:39,988 --> 00:04:45,034 you know, secular societal trends or even, you know, broader Christian trends 96 00:04:45,034 --> 00:04:48,830 that are secular Christian trends or the that merger of them? 97 00:04:49,706 --> 00:04:52,875 are we being shaped by that or are we being shaped by Scripture? So, 98 00:04:54,502 --> 00:04:55,253 I think 99 00:04:55,253 --> 00:04:58,673 that, one of the things the place to start 100 00:04:59,215 --> 00:05:02,010 is to, to recognize that when we speak 101 00:05:02,010 --> 00:05:06,806 of God's kingdom or Jesus kingdom, I think we have often turned that 102 00:05:06,806 --> 00:05:10,685 into some sort of spiritualized ethereal principle. 103 00:05:10,727 --> 00:05:10,935 Right. 104 00:05:10,935 --> 00:05:14,480 The kingdom of God is like this theological idea, right? 105 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,942 That that is this, I don't know, ethereal God. 106 00:05:18,067 --> 00:05:19,402 Jesus is the King. 107 00:05:19,402 --> 00:05:21,279 He tells us what to do and we follow him. 108 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,282 And then eventually we go up to heaven or something, right? 109 00:05:24,699 --> 00:05:29,287 but in the storyline of the Bible, the Kingdom of God is decidedly not that 110 00:05:30,079 --> 00:05:35,335 that when when we speak of Jesus kingdom or the kingdom of God, we are thinking 111 00:05:35,335 --> 00:05:40,673 very specifically of the fulfillment of the promises that God gave to David. 112 00:05:40,673 --> 00:05:42,717 But they would be an unending line that would reign over 113 00:05:42,717 --> 00:05:44,385 God's people, but also over the nations. 114 00:05:45,595 --> 00:05:47,513 and we're thinking of 115 00:05:47,513 --> 00:05:51,434 the vision of the prophets that someday God would come back to his people, 116 00:05:51,434 --> 00:05:55,229 restore them, and a the true Messiah would reign over them. 117 00:05:55,730 --> 00:05:58,441 It's it's a vision, not of some sort of distant, 118 00:05:58,441 --> 00:06:02,945 ethereal thing, but it's the vision of, a real kingdom. 119 00:06:03,196 --> 00:06:04,864 This is why Jesus taught us to pray. 120 00:06:04,864 --> 00:06:08,785 May your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, right? 121 00:06:09,077 --> 00:06:12,955 Jesus as the King is not an abstract king, 122 00:06:12,955 --> 00:06:18,002 but he is presented in the Gospels as being the heir to the Davidic throne. 123 00:06:18,336 --> 00:06:21,339 Right? The true Israel's true king. 124 00:06:21,506 --> 00:06:23,132 the true. 125 00:06:23,132 --> 00:06:26,010 Yeah. Who therefore has has rule over 126 00:06:26,010 --> 00:06:29,180 God's people and the nations in a restored earth. 127 00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:33,935 Like it's very it's grounded in, in the hist in history and also on earth. 128 00:06:33,935 --> 00:06:34,936 Right. Jesus. 129 00:06:34,936 --> 00:06:37,939 Jesus is the rightful king who 130 00:06:38,147 --> 00:06:42,276 we are waiting for him to completely trample all his. 131 00:06:42,402 --> 00:06:45,738 The rest, you know his enemies and reign on earth as in heaven. 132 00:06:46,072 --> 00:06:47,323 And if that's the case, 133 00:06:48,408 --> 00:06:50,118 then that has to mean 134 00:06:50,118 --> 00:06:53,121 that there, there is at least potentially 135 00:06:54,122 --> 00:06:57,583 some real conflict between that kingdom 136 00:06:57,583 --> 00:07:02,213 that we, that real kingdom that we're in and that we're awaiting 137 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,842 and, the rest of the rulers of the world. 138 00:07:05,842 --> 00:07:06,509 Right. 139 00:07:06,509 --> 00:07:07,969 And that's going to manifest itself different 140 00:07:07,969 --> 00:07:10,763 because there's there's some countries and some societies 141 00:07:10,763 --> 00:07:13,182 that have been more impacted by Christianity than others. 142 00:07:13,182 --> 00:07:16,227 And therefore, there's going to be some rulers that are that 143 00:07:16,227 --> 00:07:19,188 rule better than others and things like that. 144 00:07:19,230 --> 00:07:23,109 but the impulse that we should have is we should be thinking, 145 00:07:23,443 --> 00:07:27,738 what I'm ultimately waiting for is indeed a real king 146 00:07:28,030 --> 00:07:32,410 to return to earth and reign over all the kingdoms of the world 147 00:07:32,743 --> 00:07:36,038 and put all things to right here on earth as in heaven, right? 148 00:07:36,706 --> 00:07:39,250 And that, I think, can slowly start 149 00:07:39,250 --> 00:07:42,879 changing the way we think about politics in general. 150 00:07:43,129 --> 00:07:43,838 Right. 151 00:07:43,838 --> 00:07:46,966 It's not we can't just we can't just put Jesus and the kingdom 152 00:07:46,966 --> 00:07:50,386 of God up into this separate theological sphere. 153 00:07:50,761 --> 00:07:52,847 We have to say, wait a minute. 154 00:07:52,847 --> 00:07:56,476 When I start thinking about where my hopes are set 155 00:07:56,809 --> 00:08:01,272 for the restoration of my country or society or whatever, is that, am I? 156 00:08:01,272 --> 00:08:02,857 Is that in conflict? Is that, 157 00:08:04,066 --> 00:08:08,529 somehow, dividing my loyalty to a real, 158 00:08:08,529 --> 00:08:12,241 actual kingdom that I'm waiting to come on the same planet, right? 159 00:08:12,241 --> 00:08:15,036 Or the renewed version of it? Right. 160 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:17,705 and this is where, the apostles. 161 00:08:17,705 --> 00:08:20,124 So in acts four, for example. 162 00:08:20,124 --> 00:08:20,708 So in acts four, for example. 163 00:08:20,875 --> 00:08:24,253 so Psalm two looms large in the discussion of politics 164 00:08:24,253 --> 00:08:27,673 and the kingdom of God versus the beast or the or Rome or whatever. 165 00:08:27,965 --> 00:08:31,344 Psalm two is this, famous psalm where, 166 00:08:32,303 --> 00:08:35,723 it starts out, why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 167 00:08:36,015 --> 00:08:39,894 The kings of the earth set themselves up against Yahweh and his anointed, the 168 00:08:40,937 --> 00:08:42,688 the Davidic figure or the Messiah figure. 169 00:08:42,688 --> 00:08:45,107 Right? And they say, let's stop. 170 00:08:45,107 --> 00:08:47,610 Let's burst their bonds apart, cast away their cords from us. 171 00:08:47,610 --> 00:08:50,905 So it's like all it's picturing all these nations 172 00:08:50,905 --> 00:08:54,408 saying, oh, we don't want Yahweh's king to rule over us. 173 00:08:54,408 --> 00:08:56,369 We get rid of rid of them. 174 00:08:56,369 --> 00:08:58,079 But then God laughs. 175 00:08:58,079 --> 00:09:00,498 He thinks, this is what a joke, right? 176 00:09:00,498 --> 00:09:00,748 Good. 177 00:09:00,748 --> 00:09:03,876 You're going to try to rebel against me and my anointed king. 178 00:09:03,876 --> 00:09:04,919 Good luck. Good luck with that. 179 00:09:06,295 --> 00:09:06,629 And then 180 00:09:06,629 --> 00:09:10,049 God says, as for me, I have set my my King on Zion, my holy hill. 181 00:09:10,466 --> 00:09:13,761 And then Yahweh says to me, to the 182 00:09:14,971 --> 00:09:18,599 the implied speaker, here you are my son, the king, the anointed king. 183 00:09:18,975 --> 00:09:20,726 Today I have begotten you. I become your father. 184 00:09:20,726 --> 00:09:24,355 So, ask me, and I will make the nations your heritage, the ends of the earth, 185 00:09:24,355 --> 00:09:26,691 your possession. You will break them with a rod of iron, 186 00:09:26,691 --> 00:09:28,943 dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 187 00:09:28,943 --> 00:09:32,738 So then he turns back to the rest of the nations that are trying to get out of, 188 00:09:32,738 --> 00:09:34,407 you know, to rebel against this. 189 00:09:34,407 --> 00:09:38,077 So kings be smart and serve Yahweh with fear 190 00:09:38,494 --> 00:09:41,372 and kiss the sun, bow down to the sun 191 00:09:41,372 --> 00:09:44,584 and, submit to the to the messianic ruler. 192 00:09:45,251 --> 00:09:47,211 Blessed are all who take refuge in him. 193 00:09:47,211 --> 00:09:49,213 And that Psalm looms all over the place. 194 00:09:49,213 --> 00:09:53,509 So in acts four, the apostles just get persecuted by, 195 00:09:54,385 --> 00:09:58,347 they had just gotten beaten up, I think, as, as kind of tended to happen 196 00:09:58,723 --> 00:10:01,601 that was kind of just like par for the course. 197 00:10:01,601 --> 00:10:03,311 Yeah. So, 198 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,523 Peter and John were called before the Sanhedrin, 199 00:10:07,607 --> 00:10:11,110 and then they got released, and then they, 200 00:10:11,902 --> 00:10:14,905 they go back to their prayer meeting or whatever. 201 00:10:14,905 --> 00:10:17,950 And in acts four the people, 202 00:10:17,950 --> 00:10:19,535 they got together after they heard the report 203 00:10:19,535 --> 00:10:21,787 of their persecution, they're getting beaten up or whatever. 204 00:10:21,787 --> 00:10:24,290 And they pray. 205 00:10:24,290 --> 00:10:25,625 Psalm two, 206 00:10:25,625 --> 00:10:26,042 Psalm two, 207 00:10:26,042 --> 00:10:28,377 they say, sovereign Lord, who made heaven and earth 208 00:10:28,377 --> 00:10:31,380 through the mouth of our father David, you said by the Holy Spirit, 209 00:10:31,380 --> 00:10:34,258 why do the Gentiles rage and the peoples plot in vain? 210 00:10:34,258 --> 00:10:35,676 The kings of the earth set themselves, 211 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:38,679 and the rulers are gathered together against the Lord and his anointed. 212 00:10:38,804 --> 00:10:42,308 And then they say, truly, in this city they were gathered 213 00:10:42,308 --> 00:10:45,269 together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 214 00:10:45,394 --> 00:10:48,022 Both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles 215 00:10:48,022 --> 00:10:50,399 and the people of Israel, to do whatever your hand 216 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:52,276 and your plan had predestined to take place. 217 00:10:52,276 --> 00:10:56,405 What they're doing is they're recognizing in the way that they're being mistreated 218 00:10:57,031 --> 00:10:59,408 and in the way that Jesus had just been, 219 00:11:01,369 --> 00:11:01,744 killed. 220 00:11:01,744 --> 00:11:02,662 And then, of course, rose again. 221 00:11:02,662 --> 00:11:06,749 But they're recognizing, oh, that's that's this, right. 222 00:11:06,957 --> 00:11:12,254 When they saw Herod and they see, Pilate and and the Jewish leaders conspiring 223 00:11:12,254 --> 00:11:15,966 against God's anointed, they're saying, yeah, that's that's Psalm two. 224 00:11:15,966 --> 00:11:17,927 And now they recognize, our being persecuted 225 00:11:17,927 --> 00:11:20,554 is a continuation of that, like God's still, 226 00:11:20,554 --> 00:11:23,224 the nations are still raging against the rule 227 00:11:23,224 --> 00:11:25,810 of the Messiah. 228 00:11:26,018 --> 00:11:28,145 and this same psalm 229 00:11:28,145 --> 00:11:31,107 appears in Revelation 11. 230 00:11:31,107 --> 00:11:32,858 Oh yeah. Okay. 231 00:11:32,858 --> 00:11:35,069 Multiple times. Interesting, interesting. 232 00:11:35,069 --> 00:11:37,279 Now that that I was not aware of. 233 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:39,198 Yeah, it's it's kind of big. 234 00:11:39,198 --> 00:11:42,076 So Revelation 11 235 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:42,243 verse 15. 236 00:11:42,243 --> 00:11:43,202 After the seventh trumpet. 237 00:11:43,202 --> 00:11:46,205 So this sort of represents, 238 00:11:48,332 --> 00:11:52,086 the the final, sort of the final culmination of all things. 239 00:11:52,461 --> 00:11:54,213 The seventh angel blows his trumpet 240 00:11:54,213 --> 00:11:56,340 and the voices in heaven say, the kingdom of the world 241 00:11:56,340 --> 00:11:58,592 has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, 242 00:11:58,592 --> 00:12:01,095 and he shall reign forever and ever, right? God? 243 00:12:01,095 --> 00:12:02,388 Jesus has finally 244 00:12:03,597 --> 00:12:04,014 taken the 245 00:12:04,014 --> 00:12:07,893 throne on earth as it is in heaven, and the elders fall in their faces 246 00:12:07,893 --> 00:12:10,855 and they say, we give thanks to you who was and who is. 247 00:12:11,313 --> 00:12:13,482 For you have taken your power and begun to reign. 248 00:12:13,482 --> 00:12:16,527 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead 249 00:12:16,527 --> 00:12:17,903 to be rewarded, etc. 250 00:12:17,903 --> 00:12:20,489 and so recognizing, you know, the end of that. 251 00:12:20,489 --> 00:12:23,492 So, Jesus, at the, 252 00:12:23,909 --> 00:12:26,704 at the end of after his resurrection at the end of Matthew's 253 00:12:26,704 --> 00:12:30,291 gospel says all authority has been given in heaven and on earth to me. 254 00:12:30,624 --> 00:12:31,417 Right? 255 00:12:31,417 --> 00:12:34,378 He recognizes that in his he's 256 00:12:34,378 --> 00:12:37,381 been he's conquered, he has overcome. 257 00:12:37,631 --> 00:12:43,012 he is now the the resurrected Messiah who 258 00:12:44,638 --> 00:12:46,140 so in the beginning of Matthew's 259 00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:49,935 gospel, the devil tempts him with all the kingdoms of the world, right? 260 00:12:49,935 --> 00:12:53,063 If you'll bow down to worship, he's like, because the devil knows 261 00:12:53,063 --> 00:12:56,400 that that is Jesus rightful inheritance, right? 262 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,069 He's the devil, presumably has read Psalm two, 263 00:12:59,069 --> 00:13:02,072 and he says he's basically offering Jesus a shortcut. 264 00:13:02,406 --> 00:13:03,032 Yeah. 265 00:13:03,032 --> 00:13:03,365 yeah. 266 00:13:03,365 --> 00:13:06,327 It's almost like you can have this right now if You can have it right now. 267 00:13:06,327 --> 00:13:08,370 Or you could do it the hard way, right? 268 00:13:08,370 --> 00:13:11,415 The suffering way, the death way. Right? 269 00:13:11,832 --> 00:13:15,044 And Jesus says, no, I will trust that 270 00:13:15,044 --> 00:13:18,172 God will give me the kingdoms of the world. But 271 00:13:19,381 --> 00:13:20,549 there's for him. 272 00:13:20,549 --> 00:13:21,425 There's like two options. 273 00:13:21,425 --> 00:13:24,386 He could bow down to the dragon 274 00:13:24,512 --> 00:13:26,931 and get it that way with no suffering involved. 275 00:13:26,931 --> 00:13:30,351 Or he could so he could wander 276 00:13:30,351 --> 00:13:33,354 around and suffer and eventually be killed. 277 00:13:33,813 --> 00:13:35,397 And God would raise him up and give it. 278 00:13:35,397 --> 00:13:37,900 And that's the route he chose, right? 279 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:38,818 that is so. 280 00:13:38,818 --> 00:13:42,154 But that means a life where the nations are raging against him, right? 281 00:13:42,154 --> 00:13:44,824 God vindicated him. 282 00:13:44,824 --> 00:13:48,536 so this Psalm and the way Jesus received his authority 283 00:13:48,536 --> 00:13:52,873 over the nations becomes a pattern for the rest of the church. 284 00:13:54,083 --> 00:13:56,502 and it becomes a, I think, a 285 00:13:56,502 --> 00:14:00,214 a part of the lens that we look at politics through. 286 00:14:00,214 --> 00:14:04,176 Because I think that temptation that Jesus had 287 00:14:04,176 --> 00:14:07,179 in, in, by the devil, 288 00:14:08,013 --> 00:14:10,307 is a very similar temptation to, 289 00:14:10,307 --> 00:14:13,686 to one that some of us face in the, in the States right now. 290 00:14:14,061 --> 00:14:14,395 Right. 291 00:14:16,146 --> 00:14:17,523 the New Testament Revelation 292 00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:20,526 and the rest of the New Testament teaches that, 293 00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:24,238 and the Old Testament Daniel seven is all about this, that someday 294 00:14:24,238 --> 00:14:28,242 the Son of Man would crush all the all the earthly kingdoms, the beasts. 295 00:14:28,242 --> 00:14:29,076 Right? 296 00:14:29,076 --> 00:14:32,079 And he and his people, the people of the, 297 00:14:32,079 --> 00:14:35,082 the saints of the of the Most High would reign. 298 00:14:35,416 --> 00:14:39,128 and Revelation talks about they will reign, you know, with him. 299 00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:43,007 but the question is how 300 00:14:43,007 --> 00:14:46,010 how do you get there and, 301 00:14:47,261 --> 00:14:48,971 Revelation the rest of the testament too. 302 00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:51,974 But Revelation through its imagery, I think, helps us 303 00:14:52,224 --> 00:14:56,562 to avoid the the temptation that Jesus faced by the devil, 304 00:14:56,854 --> 00:15:00,941 which is to get that result reigning, 305 00:15:02,443 --> 00:15:04,069 through, through 306 00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:07,031 sort of compromising with the dragon. 307 00:15:07,615 --> 00:15:07,948 Right? 308 00:15:07,948 --> 00:15:10,951 Instead of suffering and waiting 309 00:15:11,410 --> 00:15:14,413 and entrusting God to give it to us. 310 00:15:14,705 --> 00:15:19,168 So it's like one option is suffering and patience. 311 00:15:19,209 --> 00:15:20,586 Yeah. Right. 312 00:15:20,586 --> 00:15:23,380 but another option is the shortcut to power. 313 00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:28,052 So it's like patience or power, you know, you see this a lot. 314 00:15:28,093 --> 00:15:31,430 You hear terminology like, we need to take our country back, for example. 315 00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:33,891 And that's a very I mean, not secular. 316 00:15:33,891 --> 00:15:35,935 This is within the church very regularly. 317 00:15:35,935 --> 00:15:39,063 I'm from I'm from the Deep South, right or South, I, you know, 318 00:15:39,313 --> 00:15:42,191 right on the in Georgia Tennessee state line, you know. 319 00:15:42,191 --> 00:15:43,609 Yeah, I think so I'm like right there. 320 00:15:43,609 --> 00:15:45,611 So you know and you. 321 00:15:45,611 --> 00:15:46,362 Yes. Yeah. 322 00:15:46,362 --> 00:15:48,072 Anyway so we're from the south right. 323 00:15:48,072 --> 00:15:51,075 And you and you hear that rhetoric in churches down there. 324 00:15:51,158 --> 00:15:52,451 It feels a bit regional. 325 00:15:52,451 --> 00:15:53,953 I know it's all across the country as well. 326 00:15:53,953 --> 00:15:57,164 But but you hear things like, yeah, we have to take our country back. 327 00:15:57,164 --> 00:16:00,668 It's being overrun by whatever evil force. 328 00:16:00,668 --> 00:16:02,753 Yeah, just take your pick. It changes over time. 329 00:16:02,753 --> 00:16:04,713 It's funny because our how the our neighbors talked about it 330 00:16:04,713 --> 00:16:09,009 in the 90s versus how they say it now it's you know but there's when you hear 331 00:16:09,009 --> 00:16:14,098 terminology like that it's it is kind of this fixation with power is the best. 332 00:16:14,098 --> 00:16:17,101 I can summarize it because, oh, if we can get our guy 333 00:16:17,351 --> 00:16:19,979 in “our guy”, 334 00:16:19,979 --> 00:16:23,440 then they can use that power to instate, 335 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,027 whatever Supreme Court justice or this piece of legislation. 336 00:16:27,444 --> 00:16:32,616 And it always seems like, like that does seem almost like the shortcut option. 337 00:16:32,616 --> 00:16:34,410 You know, it doesn't seem patient at all. 338 00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:36,912 It's like we have to grab the power while we can, 339 00:16:36,912 --> 00:16:38,956 because if we don't, we'll never get it back. 340 00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:40,541 You know, that's another one you hear all the time. 341 00:16:40,541 --> 00:16:42,501 If we lose this whatever election 342 00:16:42,501 --> 00:16:45,504 and take your pick of whichever one in the last 100 years, I mean, 343 00:16:45,587 --> 00:16:48,549 the same phraseology has been used basically every time. 344 00:16:48,549 --> 00:16:49,591 and we're hearing it right now, like 345 00:16:49,591 --> 00:16:53,137 this is the most important election ever in American history. 346 00:16:53,137 --> 00:16:54,304 And we heard that last time, too. 347 00:16:56,306 --> 00:16:59,018 so it but how do we break out of that? 348 00:16:59,018 --> 00:17:02,021 Because that is such a hold on 349 00:17:02,938 --> 00:17:05,941 on the church and our people. 350 00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:08,861 this fixation of is it because we're trying for a shortcut 351 00:17:08,861 --> 00:17:10,696 like what's going on here? Exactly. 352 00:17:10,696 --> 00:17:13,157 And then also too, how does Revelation help inform us? 353 00:17:13,157 --> 00:17:16,160 I feel like that's the other piece we need to bring in because 354 00:17:16,618 --> 00:17:19,538 sorry, I'm not too not to keep going here, but it feels like that's a big piece. 355 00:17:19,538 --> 00:17:22,499 So one I've heard is like, well, we can read in Revelation 356 00:17:22,499 --> 00:17:24,251 all these horrible things that are going to happen. 357 00:17:24,251 --> 00:17:27,921 So what we need is the right figures in power 358 00:17:27,921 --> 00:17:31,216 that can stand between us and this evil that's going to come to the church, 359 00:17:31,216 --> 00:17:35,429 and they're going to help hold back the evil and allow righteousness 360 00:17:35,429 --> 00:17:37,056 to keep going within the church and blah, blah. 361 00:17:37,056 --> 00:17:38,223 So they'll use Revelation 362 00:17:38,223 --> 00:17:41,685 as the reason for therefore, you must get involved politically. 363 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:45,355 And you're suggesting, no, we got it completely backwards. 364 00:17:45,355 --> 00:17:47,149 Okay. So make that case. 365 00:17:47,149 --> 00:17:51,487 This is one of my beefs with with the way that Revelation has been 366 00:17:51,779 --> 00:17:55,407 most commonly read in American evangelicalism, right, 367 00:17:55,741 --> 00:17:58,744 is that it actually ends up 368 00:17:58,952 --> 00:18:01,789 becoming a resource for people to, 369 00:18:04,166 --> 00:18:05,709 against their political opponents 370 00:18:05,709 --> 00:18:09,046 and for taking back whatever it is through 371 00:18:09,588 --> 00:18:12,966 colluding with, you know, whatever flawed candidate there is. 372 00:18:12,966 --> 00:18:14,051 Right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 373 00:18:14,051 --> 00:18:17,054 Because apocalyptic imagery is conjured up every time. 374 00:18:17,262 --> 00:18:20,057 Like, this is routine, you know, that Revelation imagery 375 00:18:20,057 --> 00:18:24,561 is used like to get votes or to get whatever, whatever it might be, 376 00:18:24,728 --> 00:18:28,857 you know, But and this is this is why I think it's so important to 377 00:18:29,608 --> 00:18:32,152 to say, remember that this is a real 378 00:18:32,152 --> 00:18:35,155 Jesus kingdom is not some abstract metaphorical thing. 379 00:18:35,405 --> 00:18:37,658 It's a real thing. Jesus is the King. 380 00:18:37,658 --> 00:18:38,992 Because, yes, 381 00:18:38,992 --> 00:18:42,037 because he's the incarnate son, but also because he's the Son of David. 382 00:18:42,371 --> 00:18:45,040 Right? It's a real grounded thing. 383 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,376 And if that's true, 384 00:18:47,376 --> 00:18:48,877 we can't just start. 385 00:18:48,877 --> 00:18:50,003 we can't just start. 386 00:18:50,003 --> 00:18:52,381 What we've tended to do is pull all the, 387 00:18:52,381 --> 00:18:57,219 like, nasty, sort of ugly beast imagery from Revelation 388 00:18:57,511 --> 00:19:01,849 and apply it to whatever political opponents we have 389 00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:03,433 with the 390 00:19:03,433 --> 00:19:07,396 sort of implication that whichever side we're on 391 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:12,109 is headed up by some good, you know, right. 392 00:19:12,109 --> 00:19:13,402 That dichotomy. 393 00:19:13,402 --> 00:19:16,780 But you even mentioned it before, how sometimes you hear things like 394 00:19:16,780 --> 00:19:19,783 if we don't get our guy in, 395 00:19:19,867 --> 00:19:21,368 but that's kind of strange, right? 396 00:19:21,368 --> 00:19:25,539 Because in a sense, the story of the Bible 397 00:19:25,539 --> 00:19:29,168 and the story of Revelation is that we have our guy. 398 00:19:31,336 --> 00:19:34,131 Oh, Jesus. 399 00:19:34,131 --> 00:19:36,175 That's interesting. Yeah. Okay. 400 00:19:36,175 --> 00:19:38,468 Because I've heard it flipped. 401 00:19:38,468 --> 00:19:42,681 Like, if they they it's basically like, if we don't get our guy 402 00:19:42,681 --> 00:19:44,558 in, we're going to lose everything. Right? 403 00:19:44,558 --> 00:19:47,519 And it felt to me that, well, then 404 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:50,355 there's no faith there, it feels like or something. 405 00:19:50,355 --> 00:19:54,443 It's almost like some earthly power is responsible to keep God's plan 406 00:19:54,443 --> 00:19:55,652 and working properly. 407 00:19:55,652 --> 00:19:57,946 So, I don't know, it just felt weird. It just something's off. 408 00:19:57,946 --> 00:19:59,323 someone said, I like this. 409 00:19:59,323 --> 00:20:02,993 Someone said, you know, you a political position or party or 410 00:20:03,202 --> 00:20:06,205 or candidate can have your lean, but not your bow. 411 00:20:06,413 --> 00:20:07,581 It's fine to lean, right? 412 00:20:07,581 --> 00:20:09,875 We all lean politically. I have political leanings. 413 00:20:09,875 --> 00:20:13,503 I won't, I'll try not to talk about them, but, we all have political leanings. 414 00:20:13,921 --> 00:20:15,214 But when we start, 415 00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:20,719 when we start having our guy that isn't 416 00:20:22,221 --> 00:20:25,224 that that we can't say, look, he's flawed. 417 00:20:25,974 --> 00:20:27,851 he might be a problem person. 418 00:20:27,851 --> 00:20:31,855 I tend to agree with more of his policies and others, but I recognize 419 00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:35,359 that until Jesus comes back, there will still be a mess, right? 420 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,613 If we start going beyond that and having to turn this guy into our guy. 421 00:20:40,447 --> 00:20:43,450 you. It sounds like you're starting to substitute Jesus 422 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,703 for one of these other characters, right? 423 00:20:46,954 --> 00:20:49,957 And the book of Revelation, the reason the book of Revelation 424 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,211 is really helpful is it is this starkly dichotomous book, right? 425 00:20:54,503 --> 00:20:56,797 It's very black and white. 426 00:20:56,797 --> 00:20:58,382 and that's good because it's jarring, right? 427 00:20:58,382 --> 00:21:01,468 Of course, reality is very complex, very nuanced, very gray. 428 00:21:02,261 --> 00:21:02,928 and everything else. 429 00:21:02,928 --> 00:21:07,015 But Revelation reminds us that, hey, at the end of the day, 430 00:21:08,183 --> 00:21:10,143 they're really 431 00:21:10,143 --> 00:21:12,521 drawing on the book of Daniel. 432 00:21:12,521 --> 00:21:14,564 there are, at the end of the day, 433 00:21:14,564 --> 00:21:17,442 the beasts, the beastly kingdoms, 434 00:21:17,442 --> 00:21:21,154 and they will be conquered by the one like a son of man. 435 00:21:21,947 --> 00:21:23,282 Right. 436 00:21:23,282 --> 00:21:27,119 and so, so what Revelation is trying to do 437 00:21:27,744 --> 00:21:30,414 is to tell the first readers, 438 00:21:30,414 --> 00:21:33,417 and by implication, us. 439 00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:35,627 it's picturing 440 00:21:35,627 --> 00:21:40,048 the rulers, the leaders, the the forces, maybe socioeconomic forces 441 00:21:40,048 --> 00:21:43,051 as well of their day painting them, 442 00:21:43,218 --> 00:21:46,471 with sort of imagery from the Book of Daniel. 443 00:21:46,471 --> 00:21:47,097 Right. 444 00:21:47,097 --> 00:21:50,100 So the beast, this beast imagery, 445 00:21:51,768 --> 00:21:53,353 or Rome or Babylon 446 00:21:53,353 --> 00:21:56,398 language, they come together in Revelation. 447 00:21:56,398 --> 00:21:59,401 Revelation uses the beast, 448 00:21:59,526 --> 00:22:03,071 Babylon and Rome sort of interchangeably in a lot of ways. 449 00:22:03,113 --> 00:22:04,781 That makes a lot of sense. 450 00:22:04,781 --> 00:22:05,699 Yeah. Okay. 451 00:22:05,699 --> 00:22:08,702 And there's reasons for that. 452 00:22:08,702 --> 00:22:10,662 why those specifically I mean, obviously. 453 00:22:10,662 --> 00:22:12,205 Well, Babylon, that kind of makes sense, right? 454 00:22:12,205 --> 00:22:14,041 The 70 years of captivity. Right. 455 00:22:14,041 --> 00:22:15,375 Is that where that's coming from? 456 00:22:15,375 --> 00:22:16,460 Nebuchadnezzar and such. 457 00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:21,757 so Rome and Babylon were are the only two empires that ever destroyed the temple. 458 00:22:22,174 --> 00:22:22,591 Right. 459 00:22:22,591 --> 00:22:26,428 And and sort of conquered, conquered Israel, in a sense. 460 00:22:26,428 --> 00:22:26,720 Right. 461 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,431 They're the most theologically significant in those ways. 462 00:22:29,431 --> 00:22:30,390 And if you're a Christian, 463 00:22:31,391 --> 00:22:33,393 so if you're Jewish, that that really matters. 464 00:22:33,393 --> 00:22:34,394 And if you’re a christian that matters. 465 00:22:34,394 --> 00:22:37,356 But if you're a Christian, you also have the added layer that Rome is. 466 00:22:37,356 --> 00:22:41,693 The, is the empire that that put the Messiah to death. 467 00:22:42,361 --> 00:22:42,861 Right. 468 00:22:42,861 --> 00:22:46,323 And so there's this extra layer of, of beast to it. 469 00:22:46,365 --> 00:22:46,948 Right? 470 00:22:46,948 --> 00:22:53,038 So Daniel portrayed these, these beasts, and we won't go into all that, 471 00:22:53,038 --> 00:22:54,790 but these beasts representing different 472 00:22:54,790 --> 00:22:58,668 kingdoms and these, you know, these are kind of monstrous characters 473 00:22:58,668 --> 00:23:03,840 that that reign violently and, you know, very much against against God. 474 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,301 And then in, in the clouds of heaven 475 00:23:06,301 --> 00:23:07,511 coming with the clouds of heaven, there's 476 00:23:07,511 --> 00:23:12,140 this human figure, one like a son of man, to whom God gives full 477 00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:15,143 dominion and authority over all the kingdoms of the earth. 478 00:23:15,227 --> 00:23:16,978 and he, with his people, 479 00:23:17,979 --> 00:23:19,356 will destroy. 480 00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:21,775 He destroys the beasts, 481 00:23:21,775 --> 00:23:23,402 and then reigns, you know, forever. 482 00:23:23,402 --> 00:23:26,655 And and it's that that Revelation draws on 483 00:23:26,863 --> 00:23:31,410 when when John pictures the beast that is. 484 00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:34,496 And there's there's a couple beasts and everything else but these, these beastly, 485 00:23:35,580 --> 00:23:35,997 kingdoms. 486 00:23:35,997 --> 00:23:38,625 He even says some, you know, one of the beast has seven heads. 487 00:23:38,625 --> 00:23:40,919 Who? Which are the seven, which are seven mountains, 488 00:23:40,919 --> 00:23:43,922 which we talked about in an early episode that represents the seven hills of Rome. 489 00:23:44,172 --> 00:23:48,635 And that's just an obvious, imagery that first readers would have picked up on. 490 00:23:48,802 --> 00:23:50,303 It's also Seven Kings, right? 491 00:23:50,303 --> 00:23:53,765 They represent not one individual, but represent Rome. 492 00:23:53,974 --> 00:23:54,599 Right. 493 00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:58,770 But can also be called the harlot that rides on the beast is called Babylon. 494 00:23:58,770 --> 00:23:59,521 Right? 495 00:23:59,521 --> 00:24:04,317 Because it's it's not Rome sort of historical Rome alone. 496 00:24:04,609 --> 00:24:09,406 It's Rome with what Rome represents, which is the power of the beast, which is, 497 00:24:10,282 --> 00:24:13,618 the oppressive, anti-God, 498 00:24:14,578 --> 00:24:17,581 anti-Messiah domination of the world. 499 00:24:17,706 --> 00:24:17,998 Right. 500 00:24:17,998 --> 00:24:22,502 It's the force, it’s the forces of power that are not submitting to Jesus, 501 00:24:23,044 --> 00:24:24,463 but are very much opposed to him. 502 00:24:25,547 --> 00:24:28,175 but you could essentially put any earthly kingdom 503 00:24:28,175 --> 00:24:31,636 then would fit in that camp to, to an extent, would it not? 504 00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:32,596 To an extent, yeah. 505 00:24:32,596 --> 00:24:34,389 We should be careful with that, that we're not, 506 00:24:34,389 --> 00:24:37,976 you know, over oversell or we want to be careful with that. 507 00:24:38,185 --> 00:24:38,477 Yeah. 508 00:24:38,477 --> 00:24:42,606 Because you know, like some are you know, clearly I think 509 00:24:43,398 --> 00:24:46,985 no one's going to argue that, the current United States government 510 00:24:46,985 --> 00:24:50,572 is significantly better than the Nazi regime or something like that. 511 00:24:50,572 --> 00:24:52,574 Right. so, yes. 512 00:24:52,574 --> 00:24:56,828 But what it doesn't allow us to do is to say one 513 00:24:57,037 --> 00:25:00,040 earthly human kingdom is 514 00:25:00,707 --> 00:25:04,002 is sort of subcontracted out by the lamb 515 00:25:04,002 --> 00:25:07,005 or the Son of Man to rule on his behalf. 516 00:25:07,088 --> 00:25:11,384 And then the other one, you know, Russia is the beast, but America is sort 517 00:25:11,384 --> 00:25:17,015 of gets a 1099 every year from, from Jesus to, to reign on his behalf. 518 00:25:17,015 --> 00:25:20,852 You know, But that is essentially that is kind of the idea, right? 519 00:25:20,852 --> 00:25:23,063 Like America, this is the ideal. 520 00:25:23,063 --> 00:25:27,734 At least America as this amazing force for righteousness, keeping evil at bay 521 00:25:27,734 --> 00:25:29,319 around the world, etc., etc., etc.. 522 00:25:31,112 --> 00:25:32,864 I'm not really sure where that even comes from. 523 00:25:32,864 --> 00:25:35,909 Like that started somewhere, I don't know, manifest Destiny or something, 524 00:25:36,117 --> 00:25:40,705 but but it just kind of gets a little odd because then when you read these sections 525 00:25:40,705 --> 00:25:43,708 in Revelation, if you have that as your framework, 526 00:25:43,708 --> 00:25:46,711 you will automatically exempt, I'm assuming, at least 527 00:25:46,836 --> 00:25:50,173 exempting this country from that list. 528 00:25:50,173 --> 00:25:53,176 Right? Right. And you would be like, yeah, but we're the good guys. 529 00:25:53,176 --> 00:25:54,344 But that doesn't fit right. 530 00:25:54,344 --> 00:25:59,224 Because the only good guy is Jesus in the story of Revelation, right? 531 00:25:59,516 --> 00:25:59,849 Yeah. 532 00:25:59,849 --> 00:26:02,852 The other empires of the world are 533 00:26:04,312 --> 00:26:06,439 are a mix at best, right? 534 00:26:06,439 --> 00:26:09,150 but all of them are. 535 00:26:09,150 --> 00:26:11,611 You're going to see beast in all of them. 536 00:26:11,611 --> 00:26:14,030 And that's what John, of the things John wants us to see. 537 00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:15,782 And if you actually look 538 00:26:15,782 --> 00:26:19,077 at the history of any country, you will see plenty of beast. 539 00:26:19,619 --> 00:26:20,161 Right? 540 00:26:20,161 --> 00:26:21,246 Like it's it's cute 541 00:26:21,246 --> 00:26:25,292 to think of America as this sort of force for good in the world. 542 00:26:25,667 --> 00:26:28,670 And they're they're there are 543 00:26:29,045 --> 00:26:31,756 there is a bit of truth there, 544 00:26:31,756 --> 00:26:35,468 but there's also a lot of ways in which the United States has been 545 00:26:36,177 --> 00:26:39,931 has done profoundly terrible things, like terrible things. 546 00:26:40,765 --> 00:26:44,102 And that would not be surprising to anybody, 547 00:26:45,478 --> 00:26:47,731 unless they 548 00:26:47,731 --> 00:26:49,983 are trying to force the United States 549 00:26:49,983 --> 00:26:53,445 into the place of the Kingdom of the lamb. 550 00:26:53,945 --> 00:26:54,988 Right. 551 00:26:54,988 --> 00:26:58,908 If if we read the book of Revelation and say, Revelation is warning 552 00:26:58,908 --> 00:27:02,370 is is trying to tell us when you see 553 00:27:02,746 --> 00:27:05,498 the way power is used, 554 00:27:05,498 --> 00:27:08,501 you should recognize beast in there right. 555 00:27:08,585 --> 00:27:11,004 And when you see the way socioeconomic forces 556 00:27:11,004 --> 00:27:14,090 are, are employed, you should see the harlot in there right. 557 00:27:14,549 --> 00:27:17,469 And the beast is always something that's going to be 558 00:27:17,469 --> 00:27:20,221 pulling for your allegiance and pushing, 559 00:27:20,221 --> 00:27:24,184 pulling you to collude with it and therefore to, you know, to get power, 560 00:27:24,726 --> 00:27:29,481 you're going to have to compromise on your witness to Jesus in in the. 561 00:27:29,522 --> 00:27:31,900 That's kind of how the book of Revelation sees it. 562 00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:34,027 Or to kind of be 563 00:27:35,028 --> 00:27:36,363 participate in all the the 564 00:27:36,363 --> 00:27:39,574 fun things that the harlot has to offer, you know, whether that be, 565 00:27:40,867 --> 00:27:43,870 wealth or, 566 00:27:44,496 --> 00:27:47,457 slavery in the book of Revelation to 567 00:27:48,208 --> 00:27:49,709 or, or sexual immorality, 568 00:27:49,709 --> 00:27:54,714 any number of other things you have to you have to capitulate to the harlot 569 00:27:54,714 --> 00:27:57,717 and therefore no longer be part of the bride. 570 00:27:57,717 --> 00:27:59,886 That's the antithesis of the harlot, right? 571 00:27:59,886 --> 00:28:03,848 If that's the lens that you see, John is saying this, that's the lens. 572 00:28:03,848 --> 00:28:05,642 You need to see the world right. 573 00:28:05,642 --> 00:28:09,479 And I think that that is true even of societies 574 00:28:09,479 --> 00:28:13,024 like ours that have, yes, have had have been impacted by Christianity. 575 00:28:13,942 --> 00:28:16,903 but if we start seeing our society with that lens. 576 00:28:17,404 --> 00:28:21,491 Wait a minute, I see I see beast in the United States. 577 00:28:21,491 --> 00:28:22,575 The United States is 578 00:28:24,077 --> 00:28:26,538 is part of the the old 579 00:28:26,538 --> 00:28:29,999 beastly way of doing things with with some good. Yes. 580 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,378 I should be much more, 581 00:28:33,378 --> 00:28:38,299 much less tempted to sort of collude with it and much more reticent to say, 582 00:28:38,299 --> 00:28:43,054 well, in order to take back my country, I'm going to partner with you, 583 00:28:44,431 --> 00:28:48,518 because I'm going to recognize that that is that might be part of, 584 00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:52,731 what John would see as you taking the mark of the beast, right? 585 00:28:53,148 --> 00:28:57,235 You saying, well, in order to get my to have dominion 586 00:28:57,235 --> 00:29:00,530 over the kingdoms of of over the nations or whatever or my society, 587 00:29:00,989 --> 00:29:04,451 I have to align myself with all sorts of things that, 588 00:29:05,368 --> 00:29:07,078 that are very much counter to what? 589 00:29:07,078 --> 00:29:09,789 To, to what the true king wants. 590 00:29:09,789 --> 00:29:12,000 Right. 591 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,209 And so it's a different way. 592 00:29:13,209 --> 00:29:16,171 Like, so who was it, was it... 593 00:29:17,714 --> 00:29:18,214 one of those 594 00:29:18,214 --> 00:29:21,426 great Russian authors said that the line between good and evil 595 00:29:22,051 --> 00:29:24,637 goes straight through the middle of the human heart. 596 00:29:24,637 --> 00:29:27,348 And I think that sort of the, the, 597 00:29:27,348 --> 00:29:30,351 the way that Revelation has been read in, 598 00:29:31,060 --> 00:29:33,021 modern evangelicalism has tried 599 00:29:33,021 --> 00:29:38,318 to make the line between good and evil go like, sort of with our political party 600 00:29:38,318 --> 00:29:41,237 or candidate on the one side and the other on the other side. Right. 601 00:29:41,237 --> 00:29:45,074 But the book of Revelation is trying to make us say, no, you should. 602 00:29:45,074 --> 00:29:45,909 You should see 603 00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:50,288 whenever you look at the King, the, the power structures of the world 604 00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:53,541 or the socioeconomic structures, which is another way of having power. 605 00:29:53,541 --> 00:29:55,084 Soft power. Right? 606 00:29:55,084 --> 00:29:59,005 You're supposed to see the line of evil going through it, right? 607 00:29:59,923 --> 00:30:04,302 even the party that I might that I might like has beast in it. 608 00:30:07,305 --> 00:30:07,639 right. 609 00:30:07,639 --> 00:30:11,684 I think that's kind of part of how Revelation 610 00:30:11,684 --> 00:30:14,687 is supposed to function as a lens that that warns us, 611 00:30:15,313 --> 00:30:18,775 that tells us persevere, overcome, don't collude. 612 00:30:19,567 --> 00:30:21,861 which doesn't necessarily mean which doesn't mean 613 00:30:21,861 --> 00:30:23,029 don't have political opinions. 614 00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:26,032 It doesn't mean one candidate might not be better than another. 615 00:30:26,032 --> 00:30:27,408 It doesn't mean any of those things. 616 00:30:27,408 --> 00:30:30,411 But it does mean that if we think that, 617 00:30:31,871 --> 00:30:35,291 the the power structures of the United States, 618 00:30:35,959 --> 00:30:39,212 can be co-opted to advance the kingdom of God 619 00:30:39,212 --> 00:30:43,007 or taking back our country for Christian purposes. 620 00:30:44,467 --> 00:30:46,261 you're you're you're sort of trying 621 00:30:46,261 --> 00:30:49,264 to hire the beast to do the lamb's job. 622 00:30:49,305 --> 00:30:52,642 And, the beast ends up trying to eat the lamb, 623 00:30:52,642 --> 00:30:55,228 not do the, you know, not do the lamb's job. 624 00:30:56,688 --> 00:30:58,815 But it was somewhere in here. It's 625 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,528 again the fixation with power I think is the part that, that does kind of 626 00:31:03,528 --> 00:31:07,782 get me a bit because that's not obviously the example of Jesus. 627 00:31:07,782 --> 00:31:10,243 I mean, you know, you don't really see him 628 00:31:10,243 --> 00:31:12,662 rolling around trying to grab as much power as he can. 629 00:31:12,662 --> 00:31:13,538 It's actually the opposite. 630 00:31:13,538 --> 00:31:17,709 He, like, gives up all his power and is ultimately crucified. How? 631 00:31:18,418 --> 00:31:21,170 I think the one of the temptations, though, 632 00:31:21,170 --> 00:31:24,257 is people like, well, but that's what's necessary to do the right thing, right? 633 00:31:24,465 --> 00:31:28,386 You know, we have to do this for the greater good, I guess. 634 00:31:28,386 --> 00:31:28,803 I don't 635 00:31:28,803 --> 00:31:31,681 I don't know if you have any more you want to add to, to that, but 636 00:31:31,681 --> 00:31:35,768 their view is really pragmatic in their eyes of like, well, hey, 637 00:31:35,894 --> 00:31:38,771 this is what's necessary to keep the evilness of 638 00:31:38,771 --> 00:31:40,356 of what's going to happen in the end times. 639 00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:44,569 You know, at bay, we have to get this guy in whatever position 640 00:31:45,028 --> 00:31:48,907 to be that that force that will stop whatever evil is coming. 641 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,283 Well, yes. 642 00:31:50,283 --> 00:31:52,243 And I think that's where the idea of 643 00:31:53,703 --> 00:31:55,788 Jesus, one of Jesus’ goals, 644 00:31:55,788 --> 00:31:58,791 was indeed to have dominion over all the nations. 645 00:31:59,584 --> 00:32:00,877 He was. 646 00:32:00,877 --> 00:32:05,757 And he understood that all power was rightfully his and would be given to him. 647 00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:08,927 It's not that power is off the table. 648 00:32:08,927 --> 00:32:09,886 Yeah, right. 649 00:32:09,886 --> 00:32:11,721 So so we don't have to say, well, 650 00:32:11,721 --> 00:32:14,682 okay, we're just going to give up power and forget about it. 651 00:32:15,224 --> 00:32:16,601 we have to say no. 652 00:32:16,601 --> 00:32:19,228 God has already given Jesus power, 653 00:32:19,228 --> 00:32:23,441 and the and Jesus will share it with us someday. 654 00:32:24,067 --> 00:32:27,612 But the when Jesus at the again when Jesus was tempted by the devil, 655 00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:31,991 the temptation he tempted, he asked 656 00:32:32,575 --> 00:32:35,578 he said, I will give you all the kingdoms of the world. 657 00:32:35,870 --> 00:32:38,581 That is what Jesus ended up with, right? 658 00:32:38,581 --> 00:32:41,584 It's not like Satan said, Jesus, do you want to look at porn? 659 00:32:41,751 --> 00:32:42,293 Right? 660 00:32:42,293 --> 00:32:44,963 It was Jesus. Do you want what is rightfully yours? 661 00:32:46,255 --> 00:32:49,258 It was the right goal in a sense. 662 00:32:49,550 --> 00:32:51,511 The temptation was to do it 663 00:32:51,511 --> 00:32:54,472 by colluding with the beast, right? 664 00:32:54,555 --> 00:32:56,224 Falling down and worshiping the beast. 665 00:32:56,224 --> 00:32:57,392 The wrong timetable, 666 00:32:57,392 --> 00:33:01,020 the wrong time, wrong method, the wrong method by bowing down to him. 667 00:33:01,354 --> 00:33:02,021 Right. 668 00:33:02,021 --> 00:33:06,109 And I think that that very same thing is what John has in mind here. 669 00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:09,445 What what we can read, John, how we can, apply John 670 00:33:10,071 --> 00:33:13,950 in Revelation is, is that this, this sense that, well, 671 00:33:13,950 --> 00:33:17,870 in order to have power to make society what it should be. 672 00:33:18,413 --> 00:33:20,665 Great goal, you know, 673 00:33:20,665 --> 00:33:23,543 we may need to do a little bowing to the beast. 674 00:33:23,543 --> 00:33:25,753 Wrong way. Right. 675 00:33:25,753 --> 00:33:28,256 And, John, through the imagery of Revelation, we're 676 00:33:28,256 --> 00:33:31,259 constantly being reminded, no, no, no, remember, this is beast. 677 00:33:32,010 --> 00:33:35,680 This is not just some neutral power that you can use. 678 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,683 It's not like the force that you can use for, you know, good or bad. 679 00:33:38,933 --> 00:33:40,518 This is the this is the beast. 680 00:33:41,853 --> 00:33:43,521 and there's this interesting 681 00:33:43,521 --> 00:33:48,234 little weird, weird of all of Revelations, weird imagery. 682 00:33:48,234 --> 00:33:50,153 This might be one of the weirdest. 683 00:33:50,153 --> 00:33:54,866 there's the the there's two witnesses that stand up and prophesy, 684 00:33:55,324 --> 00:33:59,412 and then they everyone hates, hates them because they're sort of, 685 00:34:00,747 --> 00:34:04,667 this they pray and stuff like that in Tribulation Falls and they can dry 686 00:34:04,667 --> 00:34:08,546 up the, the, the rivers and turn things to blood and all that kind of stuff. 687 00:34:08,838 --> 00:34:11,632 They and then they're killed, right? 688 00:34:11,632 --> 00:34:13,301 The society kills them. 689 00:34:13,301 --> 00:34:17,013 And then, a few days later, God raises them, you know, from the dead 690 00:34:17,638 --> 00:34:20,183 most likely those 691 00:34:20,183 --> 00:34:23,978 that is a another one of John's strange ways 692 00:34:24,812 --> 00:34:27,523 of depicting the whole, this whole time 693 00:34:27,523 --> 00:34:31,152 period of us waiting for Jesus return. 694 00:34:31,319 --> 00:34:35,990 And the witnesses are understood to be God's people now, right. 695 00:34:36,157 --> 00:34:38,868 There's two because, in the Old Testament, you have to have two, 696 00:34:38,868 --> 00:34:40,286 at least two witnesses. 697 00:34:40,286 --> 00:34:42,914 Right. Oh, okay. Yeah. 698 00:34:42,914 --> 00:34:46,209 But it just represents it represents God's people corporately. 699 00:34:46,209 --> 00:34:47,877 It's it it's just a little vignette, right? 700 00:34:47,877 --> 00:34:51,464 It doesn't it's almost like plopped in there as a little standalone, 701 00:34:52,006 --> 00:34:53,674 episode or whatever. Right. 702 00:34:53,674 --> 00:34:55,301 That gives you a different perspective. 703 00:34:55,301 --> 00:34:56,094 I hadn’t thought of that one. 704 00:34:56,094 --> 00:34:59,097 And what they do and this is, this is, you know, 705 00:34:59,430 --> 00:35:03,059 there is a debate on everything, but this is kind of a, probably 706 00:35:03,059 --> 00:35:06,521 one of the most, maybe the most common view in most scholarship on this. And, 707 00:35:08,564 --> 00:35:11,984 they they're patterned after Moses and and Elijah, the prophets. 708 00:35:11,984 --> 00:35:13,528 Right. This is very this kind of crazy stuff. 709 00:35:13,528 --> 00:35:17,824 But the point is, they're depicting the way that we're supposed 710 00:35:17,824 --> 00:35:21,035 to, where that the church is expected to be in this time. 711 00:35:21,035 --> 00:35:21,702 Right? 712 00:35:21,702 --> 00:35:25,248 Which is people that bear witness to Jesus, 713 00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:29,418 and that, 714 00:35:29,418 --> 00:35:32,171 as we bear witness, God may be sending 715 00:35:32,171 --> 00:35:35,174 tribulation and judgment onto this world. 716 00:35:35,299 --> 00:35:36,884 Right. 717 00:35:36,884 --> 00:35:39,262 but at the same at the end, 718 00:35:39,262 --> 00:35:42,598 you know, the beast overcomes us by death. 719 00:35:42,598 --> 00:35:44,976 And there's, you know, that's what happens in that story. 720 00:35:44,976 --> 00:35:47,979 And in other parts of Revelation, the beast is given power to destroy them. 721 00:35:48,813 --> 00:35:51,524 And then God brings them back, right? 722 00:35:51,524 --> 00:35:54,527 Eventually his people, God's people, will be vindicated on the last day. 723 00:35:54,861 --> 00:35:57,572 Those are the pictures that Revelation uses 724 00:35:57,572 --> 00:36:00,575 about how Jesus kingdom advances now. 725 00:36:00,908 --> 00:36:04,287 The call in Revelation is, is not to try 726 00:36:04,495 --> 00:36:09,292 not to invest messianic hope in one of the horns of the beast, right? 727 00:36:09,292 --> 00:36:10,710 One of the beastly figures. 728 00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:14,755 But to bear witness to by our lives, by our words, 729 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,801 is to bear witness to Jesus and 730 00:36:19,969 --> 00:36:22,180 yeah. To suffer. Right? 731 00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:23,931 Right. Or Paul or Paul? 732 00:36:23,931 --> 00:36:25,892 John pictures in a different way when he talks 733 00:36:25,892 --> 00:36:28,895 about the mark's, the mark of the beast, the mark of God, which we talked about. 734 00:36:29,187 --> 00:36:32,231 Jesus kingdom advances by being somebody who overcomes, 735 00:36:32,523 --> 00:36:36,527 by refusing to be stamped by the beast way of doing things on your life, right. 736 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,656 And so that's the the consistently 737 00:36:40,656 --> 00:36:43,659 through the book of Revelation is, 738 00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:48,289 Jesus’ people are never, 739 00:36:48,414 --> 00:36:51,667 are actually very much not supposed to assimilate into the beast. 740 00:36:52,001 --> 00:36:52,627 Right? 741 00:36:52,627 --> 00:36:55,630 They're supposed to not say, well, 742 00:36:55,713 --> 00:36:59,008 maybe if we get the right part of the beast, 743 00:36:59,008 --> 00:37:02,136 we can get the this part of the beast to do 744 00:37:03,012 --> 00:37:05,681 to bring about what the lamb wants type of thing, right? 745 00:37:05,681 --> 00:37:07,058 It's no, bear witness, 746 00:37:08,309 --> 00:37:11,896 expect to suffer and and then overcome. 747 00:37:12,605 --> 00:37:15,608 So again, this is not to sell us like 748 00:37:16,234 --> 00:37:19,695 I'm not here saying it's wrong to vote or it's right to vote. 749 00:37:20,196 --> 00:37:23,282 I'm not saying you shouldn't have leanings politically one way or the other, 750 00:37:23,574 --> 00:37:27,119 but what I am saying is that when this part of 751 00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:30,873 why we're supposed to read the book of Revelation regularly, I think, 752 00:37:31,374 --> 00:37:35,920 I think is that it gets this, this vision in our head so that when we start, 753 00:37:36,128 --> 00:37:39,131 when we start, when our hearts start saying, 754 00:37:39,131 --> 00:37:41,217 this candidate, 755 00:37:41,217 --> 00:37:45,012 I'm going to invest all of my hopes for our society, 756 00:37:45,638 --> 00:37:48,975 keeping our society from going down the drain into this candidate. 757 00:37:48,975 --> 00:37:53,312 I start thinking, you know, that sounds a little weirdly like, 758 00:37:53,604 --> 00:37:57,358 that sounds a little bit weirdly like me, bowing toward the beast. 759 00:37:57,858 --> 00:37:59,026 Like, why? 760 00:37:59,026 --> 00:38:01,946 Who side of my on right, like, am I? 761 00:38:01,946 --> 00:38:03,864 Why do I expect that guy? 762 00:38:03,864 --> 00:38:06,575 Especially given all of his deep flaws? 763 00:38:07,827 --> 00:38:09,245 why do I expect. 764 00:38:09,245 --> 00:38:12,707 Why am I acting as though he's the one who's going to bring about new creation, 765 00:38:13,249 --> 00:38:16,294 or he's the one who's but, you know, and, it's 766 00:38:16,294 --> 00:38:18,045 that it's not the hey, I think he might be the 767 00:38:18,045 --> 00:38:20,214 lesser of two evils, and therefore I'm going to support that. 768 00:38:20,214 --> 00:38:22,675 I'm not talking about that. 769 00:38:22,675 --> 00:38:26,762 but I think it I am speaking very much against the idolatry 770 00:38:26,762 --> 00:38:32,059 that often plagues the United States, specifically that we think that, 771 00:38:33,019 --> 00:38:36,272 we have some special status as God's country or something, 772 00:38:36,605 --> 00:38:40,276 or that a certain political party, in our circles it’s the Republican Party 773 00:38:40,693 --> 00:38:43,696 most predominantly that gets this has, 774 00:38:44,488 --> 00:38:47,575 is is God's agent for doing for doing things 775 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:50,703 when instead too often I think what we've seen 776 00:38:51,954 --> 00:38:54,457 is, I like to say that any time 777 00:38:54,457 --> 00:38:57,460 we invest messianic hope 778 00:38:58,085 --> 00:39:01,088 into someone other than the Messiah, 779 00:39:01,172 --> 00:39:04,925 that person becomes for us an Antichrist, an anti-Messiah. 780 00:39:04,967 --> 00:39:07,345 That's all an Antichrist really is. 781 00:39:07,345 --> 00:39:10,973 It's somebody who who is expected to do what the Messiah 782 00:39:12,058 --> 00:39:12,475 will do, 783 00:39:12,475 --> 00:39:15,603 which is to rule right, to rule the world and to fix everything. 784 00:39:16,395 --> 00:39:21,359 And Revelation doesn't call us to look for one specific final Antichrist 785 00:39:21,359 --> 00:39:26,489 only Revelation calls us to see the way that our hearts can turn 786 00:39:26,947 --> 00:39:29,950 any ruler into our own Antichrist. 787 00:39:31,827 --> 00:39:34,038 And the way that that if we think you know 788 00:39:34,038 --> 00:39:38,501 Jesus is our Savior, but a certain political candidate is our, 789 00:39:39,543 --> 00:39:42,505 we basically turn him into a sub Savior, which happens with Trump 790 00:39:42,505 --> 00:39:44,256 these days, right. 791 00:39:44,256 --> 00:39:47,259 and I'm not I'm only talking about him because that's the predominant 792 00:39:47,343 --> 00:39:48,177 figure in our circles. 793 00:39:48,177 --> 00:39:51,097 I mean, we can say the same thing about other people. 794 00:39:51,097 --> 00:39:53,432 we might be turning for us. 795 00:39:53,432 --> 00:39:54,517 I'm not saying he's the final. 796 00:39:54,517 --> 00:39:57,353 I'm not saying any one person is the final antichrist, 797 00:39:57,353 --> 00:40:00,898 but we may be turning them into our own Antichrist, 798 00:40:01,857 --> 00:40:05,945 because we're putting too much messianic hope on someone who should. 799 00:40:06,153 --> 00:40:08,322 He's not. Yeah, exactly. 800 00:40:08,322 --> 00:40:09,615 So what do we do? 801 00:40:09,615 --> 00:40:12,952 Like, how do we. Because this is so easy 802 00:40:14,328 --> 00:40:16,205 to to go down that street, right? 803 00:40:16,205 --> 00:40:20,709 I mean, like the fixation with power is just right there, like earthly powers. 804 00:40:20,709 --> 00:40:23,921 I'm saying like, because it's just, oh, if we could just, you know, 805 00:40:23,921 --> 00:40:27,591 get this person and or get that thing, we could we could make all the... 806 00:40:27,633 --> 00:40:30,052 You know, there's this, 807 00:40:30,052 --> 00:40:32,513 it's it's so in us as humans. 808 00:40:32,513 --> 00:40:32,763 I mean, 809 00:40:32,763 --> 00:40:34,181 maybe that's just part of our fallen nature, 810 00:40:34,181 --> 00:40:37,184 that sense of wanting to dominate something, I don't know, 811 00:40:38,269 --> 00:40:39,228 what do we do? 812 00:40:39,228 --> 00:40:41,689 What would you encourage our listeners to do? 813 00:40:41,689 --> 00:40:44,108 Read the book of Revelation, 814 00:40:44,108 --> 00:40:46,193 though. Seriously, though, like, look at it. 815 00:40:46,193 --> 00:40:47,486 You know, look at the call. 816 00:40:47,486 --> 00:40:51,157 Just have the images in our mind when our heart starts to say 817 00:40:52,741 --> 00:40:55,744 he's going to fix everything or she's going to fix everything, 818 00:40:56,245 --> 00:40:59,665 you know, if if this doesn't happen, all of my hopes are my 819 00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:03,169 I'm almost have eschatological hope in this in this particular figure. 820 00:41:03,836 --> 00:41:04,962 Then I should start feeling, 821 00:41:06,297 --> 00:41:09,091 this starts that's not the Messiah. 822 00:41:09,091 --> 00:41:11,093 I know, because Jesus is the Messiah. 823 00:41:11,093 --> 00:41:14,096 And if I'm starting to bow to that, to this individual 824 00:41:14,305 --> 00:41:18,058 or invest the new heavens that I'm basically hoping the new heavens 825 00:41:18,058 --> 00:41:21,353 and the earth comes through this person, just in a small way, I get it. 826 00:41:22,646 --> 00:41:24,523 you know, my heart's in the wrong place. 827 00:41:24,523 --> 00:41:28,360 I remember that this person, they may be a good person. 828 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:29,570 They may not be. 829 00:41:29,570 --> 00:41:32,239 But there's ways in which those power structures 830 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,868 and the temptations I'm tempted to will participate in the power of the beast. 831 00:41:36,285 --> 00:41:37,244 Right. 832 00:41:37,244 --> 00:41:37,661 Yeah. 833 00:41:37,661 --> 00:41:38,871 It's really that I think so again, it's not don't have political opinions. 834 00:41:38,871 --> 00:41:41,290 It's really that I think so again, it's not don't have political opinions. 835 00:41:41,916 --> 00:41:44,543 It's not don't have a leaning one way or the other. 836 00:41:44,543 --> 00:41:46,795 It's not don't think it doesn't matter. The elections do matter. 837 00:41:47,838 --> 00:41:50,132 but it is 838 00:41:50,132 --> 00:41:54,470 remember that we're waiting for Jesus the King to fix everything. 839 00:41:54,762 --> 00:41:56,096 Really. 840 00:41:56,096 --> 00:41:59,725 And that until then, any shortcuts that we try 841 00:42:00,142 --> 00:42:03,437 is actually in Revelation terms pictures. 842 00:42:04,104 --> 00:42:06,232 it may be a colluding with the beast. 843 00:42:06,232 --> 00:42:10,903 And we see that play out in real life, the way that Christians who put this kind 844 00:42:10,903 --> 00:42:14,949 of eschatological hope in these figures have to compromise, right? 845 00:42:14,949 --> 00:42:17,993 You have to downplay a certain candidate's sins, 846 00:42:17,993 --> 00:42:21,664 or you have to downplay a certain way, the way that a certain 847 00:42:21,830 --> 00:42:24,667 political platform, 848 00:42:24,667 --> 00:42:27,044 does not fully represent, 849 00:42:27,044 --> 00:42:30,047 you know, godly values, right? 850 00:42:30,130 --> 00:42:32,758 If if you're just saying, hey, I think this candidate's better than the other, 851 00:42:32,758 --> 00:42:34,802 you can still say, but I think that position is terrible. 852 00:42:34,802 --> 00:42:36,262 I think that position is terrible. 853 00:42:36,262 --> 00:42:39,807 But some people cross this line where their heart, it's hardly 854 00:42:39,807 --> 00:42:40,558 their hardly able 855 00:42:40,558 --> 00:42:43,561 to say negative things about their party or their candidate anymore. 856 00:42:43,686 --> 00:42:45,771 Yeah, that's the one that really gets me to, 857 00:42:45,771 --> 00:42:49,441 because at that point you're also crossing a line of honesty you are 858 00:42:49,525 --> 00:42:51,777 but but that but see, I think that's quintessential 859 00:42:51,777 --> 00:42:54,154 what it means to start colluding with the beast. 860 00:42:54,154 --> 00:42:54,947 Right. 861 00:42:54,947 --> 00:42:56,240 You're losing your witness. 862 00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:59,243 Revelations all about Christians are supposed to bear witness to Jesus, 863 00:42:59,785 --> 00:43:05,082 and you are unable to do that fully because you're trying to participate, 864 00:43:07,126 --> 00:43:08,210 in a, in a 865 00:43:08,210 --> 00:43:12,047 anti messianic way, in, in that, in that power structure. 866 00:43:12,047 --> 00:43:12,423 you're. 867 00:43:12,423 --> 00:43:16,093 Yeah, you're you're participating in the wrong system. 868 00:43:16,302 --> 00:43:19,096 I don't know if that's the right word, but it's like you have Jesus 869 00:43:19,096 --> 00:43:22,391 and His kingdom and clearly what we are called to be witnesses. 870 00:43:22,725 --> 00:43:25,519 And then you have some people over here trying to do whatever. 871 00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:27,771 And and we're getting all sucked into that. 872 00:43:27,771 --> 00:43:30,733 He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're losing your focus on the real thing. 873 00:43:30,733 --> 00:43:34,111 And I think once you start, once you start not being able to bear witness anymore, 874 00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:36,530 then you've gotten then you've probably gotten 875 00:43:36,530 --> 00:43:39,533 snatched by the the jaws of the beast, right. 876 00:43:40,326 --> 00:43:43,329 so that's just, I don't know, these are some more 877 00:43:43,329 --> 00:43:46,332 these this isn't, like, in-depth in a specific passage or Revelation, 878 00:43:46,332 --> 00:43:48,042 but I think it's a really important, 879 00:43:48,042 --> 00:43:51,045 like way that Revelation is supposed to speak to us. 880 00:43:51,045 --> 00:43:52,212 Right? Yeah. 881 00:43:52,212 --> 00:43:53,547 But it's interesting, 882 00:43:53,547 --> 00:43:57,259 but yet it's been used to flip the other way around as a cop out. 883 00:43:57,426 --> 00:43:57,885 Yeah. 884 00:43:57,885 --> 00:44:01,263 To say, actually, we should be getting involved in these things. 885 00:44:01,513 --> 00:44:04,933 And so it's interesting to have you dig into this a bit more and say, whoa, whoa, 886 00:44:05,184 --> 00:44:07,186 you know, let's really look at the bigger picture. 887 00:44:07,186 --> 00:44:10,397 What's what's going on here with this messianic 888 00:44:10,397 --> 00:44:13,567 fervor almost, that can get that's so easy to do. 889 00:44:13,567 --> 00:44:16,570 You know, John's first reader Revelations first readers were supposed 890 00:44:16,570 --> 00:44:21,367 to look at their own society, Rome, and recognize it as the beast. 891 00:44:21,367 --> 00:44:23,786 Right, in a sense. And then, 892 00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:27,373 but but we are still supposed 893 00:44:27,373 --> 00:44:31,752 to see power structures as participating in that same. 894 00:44:32,419 --> 00:44:35,381 There's good to participate because rulership is a good thing as well. 895 00:44:35,381 --> 00:44:39,802 Kingship is a good thing, but it's always tainted by the beast. 896 00:44:40,260 --> 00:44:43,389 And so I think the call of Revelation applies to us. 897 00:44:43,389 --> 00:44:47,559 Don't turn Revelation into something where we have, well, the 898 00:44:48,227 --> 00:44:51,772 the Democrats or the Russians or the whoever they are, the beast. 899 00:44:52,189 --> 00:44:54,108 And that's that's not what Revelation says. 900 00:44:54,108 --> 00:44:57,236 Revelation says bear witness to Jesus. 901 00:44:57,695 --> 00:45:02,116 And remember that your society and the huge and the 902 00:45:02,324 --> 00:45:05,744 the empire that your society is and our societies is a, the United States 903 00:45:05,744 --> 00:45:10,040 is a massive socioeconomic, military, political empire, 904 00:45:11,792 --> 00:45:14,211 is something that is part of 905 00:45:14,211 --> 00:45:17,798 or at the very least massively tainted with the power of the beast. 906 00:45:18,382 --> 00:45:19,258 Right? 907 00:45:19,258 --> 00:45:20,509 It's not those out there. 908 00:45:20,509 --> 00:45:22,511 It's not just the the other party. 909 00:45:23,595 --> 00:45:26,682 It's it's where I live and the temptations I have. 910 00:45:26,682 --> 00:45:29,685 And the beast is not the lamb, right? 911 00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:32,187 Yeah. That's wow. 912 00:45:32,187 --> 00:45:33,731 Is this is a lot to think about. 913 00:45:33,731 --> 00:45:38,986 And hopefully this encourages listeners to remember our role as bearing witness 914 00:45:39,403 --> 00:45:43,824 you know, and keeping our messianic hopes pointed towards the actual messiah. 915 00:45:43,866 --> 00:45:44,450 You know. 916 00:45:44,450 --> 00:45:45,492 But it's just so. 917 00:45:45,492 --> 00:45:47,202 And when you know, even when saying something 918 00:45:47,202 --> 00:45:48,579 like I was like, well, yeah, of course, obviously. 919 00:45:48,579 --> 00:45:52,291 No, I mean, Jesus is the Messiah, but like in day to day life, it's, 920 00:45:52,708 --> 00:45:54,084 you can lose that so fast, right? 921 00:45:54,084 --> 00:45:57,588 You know, that's why I at the beginning, I started talking about how Jesus, 922 00:45:58,088 --> 00:46:00,883 when we say he's the king, I mean literally 923 00:46:00,883 --> 00:46:04,011 will be, will reign like it's not just an ethereal thing. 924 00:46:04,011 --> 00:46:05,012 Right. 925 00:46:05,012 --> 00:46:07,473 and that helps me to remember. Oh, oops. 926 00:46:08,432 --> 00:46:11,477 Messiah isn't just this abstract theological term. 927 00:46:11,894 --> 00:46:15,481 It's the Messiah is the one, the King that I expect 928 00:46:15,481 --> 00:46:17,900 to solve all the world's problems. That's what. 929 00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:20,903 That's what the messianic king is supposed to do, right? 930 00:46:20,986 --> 00:46:25,115 And if I start having that expectation on anyone other than Jesus, 931 00:46:26,408 --> 00:46:28,535 I'm following an Antichrist. 932 00:46:28,535 --> 00:46:30,370 They are, at least to me, an Antichrist, right? 933 00:46:30,370 --> 00:46:32,122 Yeah. 934 00:46:32,122 --> 00:46:32,915 that's so true. 935 00:46:32,915 --> 00:46:33,749 And that is, 936 00:46:33,749 --> 00:46:35,918 that is something we need to constantly be reminded of 937 00:46:35,918 --> 00:46:37,211 because, you know, we're humans 938 00:46:37,211 --> 00:46:40,839 and we forget stuff and we're like, oh, but you can get all wound up into this... 939 00:46:40,923 --> 00:46:44,551 we're waiting a long time and so and so we kind of, you know, 940 00:46:44,635 --> 00:46:48,514 our lampstands our, the oil kind of goes out and we just fall asleep. 941 00:46:48,514 --> 00:46:49,389 Right. 942 00:46:49,389 --> 00:46:52,392 And that's the point of Revelation is to wake us up Wow. Wow. 943 00:46:52,392 --> 00:46:53,352 That's so powerful. 944 00:46:53,352 --> 00:46:55,479 Well hopefully this is encouragement to everybody. 945 00:46:55,479 --> 00:46:59,024 Go go read Revelation again you know and be a witness 946 00:46:59,274 --> 00:47:04,446 for witness for the actual messiah and not try to put that on a mere human, 947 00:47:04,613 --> 00:47:08,784 you know, or an earthly power system that at the end of the day, it's just not it. 948 00:47:08,784 --> 00:47:10,118 It's not the real thing. Yeah. Wow. 949 00:47:10,118 --> 00:47:12,246 Thanks so much for sharing today, Paul. I really appreciate it. 950 00:47:14,122 --> 00:47:16,208 Thanks for listening to this episode 951 00:47:16,208 --> 00:47:19,211 on Revelation and Politics with Paul Lamicela. 952 00:47:19,253 --> 00:47:20,462 If you enjoyed this conversation, 953 00:47:20,462 --> 00:47:22,840 go check out our earlier episode we did with him on 954 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,343 how to read the Book of Revelation that's linked in the description below. 955 00:47:26,677 --> 00:47:29,429 You can find all our content, including others with Paul, 956 00:47:29,429 --> 00:47:32,474 over on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. 957 00:47:32,850 --> 00:47:35,602 Thanks again for listening and we'll see you in the next episode.