What we've tended to do is pull all the,
like, nasty, sort of ugly beast imagery from Revelation
and apply it to whatever political opponents we have
with the
sort of implication that whichever side we're on
is headed up by some good, you know, right.
That dichotomy.
But you even mentioned it before, how sometimes you hear things like
if we don't get our guy in,
but that's kind of strange, right?
Because in a sense, the story of the Bible
and the story of Revelation is that we have our guy.
Well, Paul
Lamicela, welcome back to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
So we've done a few episodes with you on the Book of Revelation,
and people can check those out.
There'll be down in the description, but today
we want to get a little more specific.
I think it's the most requested that we've had on any topic.
Is have you back on do more on the book of Revelation.
So we're going to be doing that today.
And there's one specifically that we're going to get into
that is this whole realm of the beast and earthly kingdoms that are involved
in, in this, this honestly kind of bizarre book. Yes.
that that's here.
So we're going to take just that, because I know the one we did
before was more like, how do we read this book as a whole?
but we're going to zone in a bit more.
So why don't you just take it from here?
we'll launch into it and we'll see where this, where we end up.
Yeah, well, one of the things that, we we were saying before,
is that reading Revelation
this way, hopefully our listeners have all watched
at least the first episode on Revelation that we did a couple months ago.
it it means
that Revelation is a book that has deep significance
and practical application for Christians today.
And I think the intersection that I want to look, we want to look at right now
is, is, is how does Revelation speak to our thinking
as specifically Americans,
about politics?
Oh boy.
And just I'm not entirely sure when this episode is going to be released,
but we're, we're right in the heat of an election season right now.
You know, we're two months out from it from a presidential elections.
so I mean, we're hearing all the typical things that we hear in the American,
evangelical scene especially, but where it's like,
who's God's candidate and all of this stuff.
I don't want to get into any of this business
because it's just it's just a mess as it always is.
But what are some principles that we're going to pull out of here?
So And and I think this is, this is something where,
I think we have Anabaptists.
I think traditionally,
have been told
not to get involved in politics
and because that's our stance,
we then, don't give anymore, like teaching on how to think about politics
because the assumption is, well, we just we stay out of it.
But, you know, spoiler alert, we actually don't, right?
We all we all think about politics, at least have opinions.
And that's not that's not wrong.
But the problem is I think and this this isn't going to like address all that.
But I think this is something I think that needs to be taught more is,
because I feel like there's this gap, there's this empty space where we say,
well, we don't get involved in politics, and that's it.
That's the only thing we have to say about politics is stay out of it.
But then on the ground level, we all have political opinions.
And some of us, some people, some people in our audience vote,
some probably a lot don't.
But some, you know, there's
there's a there's a variety of things that happen in our circles.
but because there's
no teaching on like, how you should actually think about politics,
I think that vacuum is filled by radio podcasts like the same.
Yeah.
The world ends up teaching us,
our society ends up teaching us how to think about politics.
because there's this vacuum, and that's that's very real.
I mean, I've ran into that all the time.
It's like, oh, well, I don't really get involved, but,
you know, I'll listen to, you know, Ben Shapiro or whatever,
you know, and it's like, okay.
So that is still informing you, you know, one way or another.
Yeah.
We almost have no way of,
of saying, okay, let's think through how to think politically.
Right. Because our official stance is we won't get involved. Right.
So I think we need more, we need to acknowledge look,
we we all do have political opinions or not
all of us, but a lot of us do have political opinions.
And, are we the political opinions that we have?
Are they being shaped by whatever,
you know, secular societal trends or even, you know, broader Christian trends
that are secular Christian trends or the that merger of them?
are we being shaped by that or are we being shaped by Scripture? So,
I think
that, one of the things the place to start
is to, to recognize that when we speak
of God's kingdom or Jesus kingdom, I think we have often turned that
into some sort of spiritualized ethereal principle.
Right.
The kingdom of God is like this theological idea, right?
That that is this, I don't know, ethereal God.
Jesus is the King.
He tells us what to do and we follow him.
And then eventually we go up to heaven or something, right?
but in the storyline of the Bible, the Kingdom of God is decidedly not that
that when when we speak of Jesus kingdom or the kingdom of God, we are thinking
very specifically of the fulfillment of the promises that God gave to David.
But they would be an unending line that would reign over
God's people, but also over the nations.
and we're thinking of
the vision of the prophets that someday God would come back to his people,
restore them, and a the true Messiah would reign over them.
It's it's a vision, not of some sort of distant,
ethereal thing, but it's the vision of, a real kingdom.
This is why Jesus taught us to pray.
May your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, right?
Jesus as the King is not an abstract king,
but he is presented in the Gospels as being the heir to the Davidic throne.
Right? The true Israel's true king.
the true.
Yeah. Who therefore has has rule over
God's people and the nations in a restored earth.
Like it's very it's grounded in, in the hist in history and also on earth.
Right. Jesus.
Jesus is the rightful king who
we are waiting for him to completely trample all his.
The rest, you know his enemies and reign on earth as in heaven.
And if that's the case,
then that has to mean
that there, there is at least potentially
some real conflict between that kingdom
that we, that real kingdom that we're in and that we're awaiting
and, the rest of the rulers of the world.
Right.
And that's going to manifest itself different
because there's there's some countries and some societies
that have been more impacted by Christianity than others.
And therefore, there's going to be some rulers that are that
rule better than others and things like that.
but the impulse that we should have is we should be thinking,
what I'm ultimately waiting for is indeed a real king
to return to earth and reign over all the kingdoms of the world
and put all things to right here on earth as in heaven, right?
And that, I think, can slowly start
changing the way we think about politics in general.
Right.
It's not we can't just we can't just put Jesus and the kingdom
of God up into this separate theological sphere.
We have to say, wait a minute.
When I start thinking about where my hopes are set
for the restoration of my country or society or whatever, is that, am I?
Is that in conflict? Is that,
somehow, dividing my loyalty to a real,
actual kingdom that I'm waiting to come on the same planet, right?
Or the renewed version of it? Right.
and this is where, the apostles.
So in acts four, for example.
so Psalm two looms large in the discussion of politics
and the kingdom of God versus the beast or the or Rome or whatever.
Psalm two is this, famous psalm where,
it starts out, why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves up against Yahweh and his anointed, the
the Davidic figure or the Messiah figure.
Right? And they say, let's stop.
Let's burst their bonds apart, cast away their cords from us.
So it's like all it's picturing all these nations
saying, oh, we don't want Yahweh's king to rule over us.
We get rid of rid of them.
But then God laughs.
He thinks, this is what a joke, right?
Good.
You're going to try to rebel against me and my anointed king.
Good luck. Good luck with that.
And then
God says, as for me, I have set my my King on Zion, my holy hill.
And then Yahweh says to me, to the
the implied speaker, here you are my son, the king, the anointed king.
Today I have begotten you. I become your father.
So, ask me, and I will make the nations your heritage, the ends of the earth,
your possession. You will break them with a rod of iron,
dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
So then he turns back to the rest of the nations that are trying to get out of,
you know, to rebel against this.
So kings be smart and serve Yahweh with fear
and kiss the sun, bow down to the sun
and, submit to the to the messianic ruler.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
And that Psalm looms all over the place.
So in acts four, the apostles just get persecuted by,
they had just gotten beaten up, I think, as, as kind of tended to happen
that was kind of just like par for the course.
Yeah. So,
Peter and John were called before the Sanhedrin,
and then they got released, and then they,
they go back to their prayer meeting or whatever.
And in acts four the people,
they got together after they heard the report
of their persecution, they're getting beaten up or whatever.
And they pray.
Psalm two,
they say, sovereign Lord, who made heaven and earth
through the mouth of our father David, you said by the Holy Spirit,
why do the Gentiles rage and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers are gathered together against the Lord and his anointed.
And then they say, truly, in this city they were gathered
together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
Both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles
and the people of Israel, to do whatever your hand
and your plan had predestined to take place.
What they're doing is they're recognizing in the way that they're being mistreated
and in the way that Jesus had just been,
killed.
And then, of course, rose again.
But they're recognizing, oh, that's that's this, right.
When they saw Herod and they see, Pilate and and the Jewish leaders conspiring
against God's anointed, they're saying, yeah, that's that's Psalm two.
And now they recognize, our being persecuted
is a continuation of that, like God's still,
the nations are still raging against the rule
of the Messiah.
and this same psalm
appears in Revelation 11.
Oh yeah. Okay.
Multiple times. Interesting, interesting.
Now that that I was not aware of.
Yeah, it's it's kind of big.
So Revelation 11
verse 15.
After the seventh trumpet.
So this sort of represents,
the the final, sort of the final culmination of all things.
The seventh angel blows his trumpet
and the voices in heaven say, the kingdom of the world
has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he shall reign forever and ever, right? God?
Jesus has finally
taken the
throne on earth as it is in heaven, and the elders fall in their faces
and they say, we give thanks to you who was and who is.
For you have taken your power and begun to reign.
The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead
to be rewarded, etc.
and so recognizing, you know, the end of that.
So, Jesus, at the,
at the end of after his resurrection at the end of Matthew's
gospel says all authority has been given in heaven and on earth to me.
Right?
He recognizes that in his he's
been he's conquered, he has overcome.
he is now the the resurrected Messiah who
so in the beginning of Matthew's
gospel, the devil tempts him with all the kingdoms of the world, right?
If you'll bow down to worship, he's like, because the devil knows
that that is Jesus rightful inheritance, right?
He's the devil, presumably has read Psalm two,
and he says he's basically offering Jesus a shortcut.
Yeah.
yeah.
It's almost like you can have this right now if You can have it right now.
Or you could do it the hard way, right?
The suffering way, the death way. Right?
And Jesus says, no, I will trust that
God will give me the kingdoms of the world. But
there's for him.
There's like two options.
He could bow down to the dragon
and get it that way with no suffering involved.
Or he could so he could wander
around and suffer and eventually be killed.
And God would raise him up and give it.
And that's the route he chose, right?
that is so.
But that means a life where the nations are raging against him, right?
God vindicated him.
so this Psalm and the way Jesus received his authority
over the nations becomes a pattern for the rest of the church.
and it becomes a, I think, a
a part of the lens that we look at politics through.
Because I think that temptation that Jesus had
in, in, by the devil,
is a very similar temptation to,
to one that some of us face in the, in the States right now.
Right.
the New Testament Revelation
and the rest of the New Testament teaches that,
and the Old Testament Daniel seven is all about this, that someday
the Son of Man would crush all the all the earthly kingdoms, the beasts.
Right?
And he and his people, the people of the,
the saints of the of the Most High would reign.
and Revelation talks about they will reign, you know, with him.
but the question is how
how do you get there and,
Revelation the rest of the testament too.
But Revelation through its imagery, I think, helps us
to avoid the the temptation that Jesus faced by the devil,
which is to get that result reigning,
through, through
sort of compromising with the dragon.
Right?
Instead of suffering and waiting
and entrusting God to give it to us.
So it's like one option is suffering and patience.
Yeah. Right.
but another option is the shortcut to power.
So it's like patience or power, you know, you see this a lot.
You hear terminology like, we need to take our country back, for example.
And that's a very I mean, not secular.
This is within the church very regularly.
I'm from I'm from the Deep South, right or South, I, you know,
right on the in Georgia Tennessee state line, you know.
Yeah, I think so I'm like right there.
So you know and you.
Yes. Yeah.
Anyway so we're from the south right.
And you and you hear that rhetoric in churches down there.
It feels a bit regional.
I know it's all across the country as well.
But but you hear things like, yeah, we have to take our country back.
It's being overrun by whatever evil force.
Yeah, just take your pick. It changes over time.
It's funny because our how the our neighbors talked about it
in the 90s versus how they say it now it's you know but there's when you hear
terminology like that it's it is kind of this fixation with power is the best.
I can summarize it because, oh, if we can get our guy
in “our guy”,
then they can use that power to instate,
whatever Supreme Court justice or this piece of legislation.
And it always seems like, like that does seem almost like the shortcut option.
You know, it doesn't seem patient at all.
It's like we have to grab the power while we can,
because if we don't, we'll never get it back.
You know, that's another one you hear all the time.
If we lose this whatever election
and take your pick of whichever one in the last 100 years, I mean,
the same phraseology has been used basically every time.
and we're hearing it right now, like
this is the most important election ever in American history.
And we heard that last time, too.
so it but how do we break out of that?
Because that is such a hold on
on the church and our people.
this fixation of is it because we're trying for a shortcut
like what's going on here? Exactly.
And then also too, how does Revelation help inform us?
I feel like that's the other piece we need to bring in because
sorry, I'm not too not to keep going here, but it feels like that's a big piece.
So one I've heard is like, well, we can read in Revelation
all these horrible things that are going to happen.
So what we need is the right figures in power
that can stand between us and this evil that's going to come to the church,
and they're going to help hold back the evil and allow righteousness
to keep going within the church and blah, blah.
So they'll use Revelation
as the reason for therefore, you must get involved politically.
And you're suggesting, no, we got it completely backwards.
Okay. So make that case.
This is one of my beefs with with the way that Revelation has been
most commonly read in American evangelicalism, right,
is that it actually ends up
becoming a resource for people to,
against their political opponents
and for taking back whatever it is through
colluding with, you know, whatever flawed candidate there is.
Right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Because apocalyptic imagery is conjured up every time.
Like, this is routine, you know, that Revelation imagery
is used like to get votes or to get whatever, whatever it might be,
you know, But and this is this is why I think it's so important to
to say, remember that this is a real
Jesus kingdom is not some abstract metaphorical thing.
It's a real thing. Jesus is the King.
Because, yes,
because he's the incarnate son, but also because he's the Son of David.
Right? It's a real grounded thing.
And if that's true,
we can't just start.
What we've tended to do is pull all the,
like, nasty, sort of ugly beast imagery from Revelation
and apply it to whatever political opponents we have
with the
sort of implication that whichever side we're on
is headed up by some good, you know, right.
That dichotomy.
But you even mentioned it before, how sometimes you hear things like
if we don't get our guy in,
but that's kind of strange, right?
Because in a sense, the story of the Bible
and the story of Revelation is that we have our guy.
Oh, Jesus.
That's interesting. Yeah. Okay.
Because I've heard it flipped.
Like, if they they it's basically like, if we don't get our guy
in, we're going to lose everything. Right?
And it felt to me that, well, then
there's no faith there, it feels like or something.
It's almost like some earthly power is responsible to keep God's plan
and working properly.
So, I don't know, it just felt weird. It just something's off.
someone said, I like this.
Someone said, you know, you a political position or party or
or candidate can have your lean, but not your bow.
It's fine to lean, right?
We all lean politically. I have political leanings.
I won't, I'll try not to talk about them, but, we all have political leanings.
But when we start,
when we start having our guy that isn't
that that we can't say, look, he's flawed.
he might be a problem person.
I tend to agree with more of his policies and others, but I recognize
that until Jesus comes back, there will still be a mess, right?
If we start going beyond that and having to turn this guy into our guy.
you. It sounds like you're starting to substitute Jesus
for one of these other characters, right?
And the book of Revelation, the reason the book of Revelation
is really helpful is it is this starkly dichotomous book, right?
It's very black and white.
and that's good because it's jarring, right?
Of course, reality is very complex, very nuanced, very gray.
and everything else.
But Revelation reminds us that, hey, at the end of the day,
they're really
drawing on the book of Daniel.
there are, at the end of the day,
the beasts, the beastly kingdoms,
and they will be conquered by the one like a son of man.
Right.
and so, so what Revelation is trying to do
is to tell the first readers,
and by implication, us.
it's picturing
the rulers, the leaders, the the forces, maybe socioeconomic forces
as well of their day painting them,
with sort of imagery from the Book of Daniel.
Right.
So the beast, this beast imagery,
or Rome or Babylon
language, they come together in Revelation.
Revelation uses the beast,
Babylon and Rome sort of interchangeably in a lot of ways.
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah. Okay.
And there's reasons for that.
why those specifically I mean, obviously.
Well, Babylon, that kind of makes sense, right?
The 70 years of captivity. Right.
Is that where that's coming from?
Nebuchadnezzar and such.
so Rome and Babylon were are the only two empires that ever destroyed the temple.
Right.
And and sort of conquered, conquered Israel, in a sense.
Right.
They're the most theologically significant in those ways.
And if you're a Christian,
so if you're Jewish, that that really matters.
And if you’re a christian that matters.
But if you're a Christian, you also have the added layer that Rome is.
The, is the empire that that put the Messiah to death.
Right.
And so there's this extra layer of, of beast to it.
Right?
So Daniel portrayed these, these beasts, and we won't go into all that,
but these beasts representing different
kingdoms and these, you know, these are kind of monstrous characters
that that reign violently and, you know, very much against against God.
And then in, in the clouds of heaven
coming with the clouds of heaven, there's
this human figure, one like a son of man, to whom God gives full
dominion and authority over all the kingdoms of the earth.
and he, with his people,
will destroy.
He destroys the beasts,
and then reigns, you know, forever.
And and it's that that Revelation draws on
when when John pictures the beast that is.
And there's there's a couple beasts and everything else but these, these beastly,
kingdoms.
He even says some, you know, one of the beast has seven heads.
Who? Which are the seven, which are seven mountains,
which we talked about in an early episode that represents the seven hills of Rome.
And that's just an obvious, imagery that first readers would have picked up on.
It's also Seven Kings, right?
They represent not one individual, but represent Rome.
Right.
But can also be called the harlot that rides on the beast is called Babylon.
Right?
Because it's it's not Rome sort of historical Rome alone.
It's Rome with what Rome represents, which is the power of the beast, which is,
the oppressive, anti-God,
anti-Messiah domination of the world.
Right.
It's the force, it’s the forces of power that are not submitting to Jesus,
but are very much opposed to him.
but you could essentially put any earthly kingdom
then would fit in that camp to, to an extent, would it not?
To an extent, yeah.
We should be careful with that, that we're not,
you know, over oversell or we want to be careful with that.
Yeah.
Because you know, like some are you know, clearly I think
no one's going to argue that, the current United States government
is significantly better than the Nazi regime or something like that.
Right. so, yes.
But what it doesn't allow us to do is to say one
earthly human kingdom is
is sort of subcontracted out by the lamb
or the Son of Man to rule on his behalf.
And then the other one, you know, Russia is the beast, but America is sort
of gets a 1099 every year from, from Jesus to, to reign on his behalf.
You know, But that is essentially that is kind of the idea, right?
Like America, this is the ideal.
At least America as this amazing force for righteousness, keeping evil at bay
around the world, etc., etc., etc..
I'm not really sure where that even comes from.
Like that started somewhere, I don't know, manifest Destiny or something,
but but it just kind of gets a little odd because then when you read these sections
in Revelation, if you have that as your framework,
you will automatically exempt, I'm assuming, at least
exempting this country from that list.
Right? Right. And you would be like, yeah, but we're the good guys.
But that doesn't fit right.
Because the only good guy is Jesus in the story of Revelation, right?
Yeah.
The other empires of the world are
are a mix at best, right?
but all of them are.
You're going to see beast in all of them.
And that's what John, of the things John wants us to see.
And if you actually look
at the history of any country, you will see plenty of beast.
Right?
Like it's it's cute
to think of America as this sort of force for good in the world.
And they're they're there are
there is a bit of truth there,
but there's also a lot of ways in which the United States has been
has done profoundly terrible things, like terrible things.
And that would not be surprising to anybody,
unless they
are trying to force the United States
into the place of the Kingdom of the lamb.
Right.
If if we read the book of Revelation and say, Revelation is warning
is is trying to tell us when you see
the way power is used,
you should recognize beast in there right.
And when you see the way socioeconomic forces
are, are employed, you should see the harlot in there right.
And the beast is always something that's going to be
pulling for your allegiance and pushing,
pulling you to collude with it and therefore to, you know, to get power,
you're going to have to compromise on your witness to Jesus in in the.
That's kind of how the book of Revelation sees it.
Or to kind of be
participate in all the the
fun things that the harlot has to offer, you know, whether that be,
wealth or,
slavery in the book of Revelation to
or, or sexual immorality,
any number of other things you have to you have to capitulate to the harlot
and therefore no longer be part of the bride.
That's the antithesis of the harlot, right?
If that's the lens that you see, John is saying this, that's the lens.
You need to see the world right.
And I think that that is true even of societies
like ours that have, yes, have had have been impacted by Christianity.
but if we start seeing our society with that lens.
Wait a minute, I see I see beast in the United States.
The United States is
is part of the the old
beastly way of doing things with with some good. Yes.
I should be much more,
much less tempted to sort of collude with it and much more reticent to say,
well, in order to take back my country, I'm going to partner with you,
because I'm going to recognize that that is that might be part of,
what John would see as you taking the mark of the beast, right?
You saying, well, in order to get my to have dominion
over the kingdoms of of over the nations or whatever or my society,
I have to align myself with all sorts of things that,
that are very much counter to what?
To, to what the true king wants.
Right.
And so it's a different way.
Like, so who was it, was it...
one of those
great Russian authors said that the line between good and evil
goes straight through the middle of the human heart.
And I think that sort of the, the,
the way that Revelation has been read in,
modern evangelicalism has tried
to make the line between good and evil go like, sort of with our political party
or candidate on the one side and the other on the other side. Right.
But the book of Revelation is trying to make us say, no, you should.
You should see
whenever you look at the King, the, the power structures of the world
or the socioeconomic structures, which is another way of having power.
Soft power. Right?
You're supposed to see the line of evil going through it, right?
even the party that I might that I might like has beast in it.
right.
I think that's kind of part of how Revelation
is supposed to function as a lens that that warns us,
that tells us persevere, overcome, don't collude.
which doesn't necessarily mean which doesn't mean
don't have political opinions.
It doesn't mean one candidate might not be better than another.
It doesn't mean any of those things.
But it does mean that if we think that,
the the power structures of the United States,
can be co-opted to advance the kingdom of God
or taking back our country for Christian purposes.
you're you're you're sort of trying
to hire the beast to do the lamb's job.
And, the beast ends up trying to eat the lamb,
not do the, you know, not do the lamb's job.
But it was somewhere in here. It's
again the fixation with power I think is the part that, that does kind of
get me a bit because that's not obviously the example of Jesus.
I mean, you know, you don't really see him
rolling around trying to grab as much power as he can.
It's actually the opposite.
He, like, gives up all his power and is ultimately crucified. How?
I think the one of the temptations, though,
is people like, well, but that's what's necessary to do the right thing, right?
You know, we have to do this for the greater good, I guess.
I don't
I don't know if you have any more you want to add to, to that, but
their view is really pragmatic in their eyes of like, well, hey,
this is what's necessary to keep the evilness of
of what's going to happen in the end times.
You know, at bay, we have to get this guy in whatever position
to be that that force that will stop whatever evil is coming.
Well, yes.
And I think that's where the idea of
Jesus, one of Jesus’ goals,
was indeed to have dominion over all the nations.
He was.
And he understood that all power was rightfully his and would be given to him.
It's not that power is off the table.
Yeah, right.
So so we don't have to say, well,
okay, we're just going to give up power and forget about it.
we have to say no.
God has already given Jesus power,
and the and Jesus will share it with us someday.
But the when Jesus at the again when Jesus was tempted by the devil,
the temptation he tempted, he asked
he said, I will give you all the kingdoms of the world.
That is what Jesus ended up with, right?
It's not like Satan said, Jesus, do you want to look at porn?
Right?
It was Jesus. Do you want what is rightfully yours?
It was the right goal in a sense.
The temptation was to do it
by colluding with the beast, right?
Falling down and worshiping the beast.
The wrong timetable,
the wrong time, wrong method, the wrong method by bowing down to him.
Right.
And I think that that very same thing is what John has in mind here.
What what we can read, John, how we can, apply John
in Revelation is, is that this, this sense that, well,
in order to have power to make society what it should be.
Great goal, you know,
we may need to do a little bowing to the beast.
Wrong way. Right.
And, John, through the imagery of Revelation, we're
constantly being reminded, no, no, no, remember, this is beast.
This is not just some neutral power that you can use.
It's not like the force that you can use for, you know, good or bad.
This is the this is the beast.
and there's this interesting
little weird, weird of all of Revelations, weird imagery.
This might be one of the weirdest.
there's the the there's two witnesses that stand up and prophesy,
and then they everyone hates, hates them because they're sort of,
this they pray and stuff like that in Tribulation Falls and they can dry
up the, the, the rivers and turn things to blood and all that kind of stuff.
They and then they're killed, right?
The society kills them.
And then, a few days later, God raises them, you know, from the dead
most likely those
that is a another one of John's strange ways
of depicting the whole, this whole time
period of us waiting for Jesus return.
And the witnesses are understood to be God's people now, right.
There's two because, in the Old Testament, you have to have two,
at least two witnesses.
Right. Oh, okay. Yeah.
But it just represents it represents God's people corporately.
It's it it's just a little vignette, right?
It doesn't it's almost like plopped in there as a little standalone,
episode or whatever. Right.
That gives you a different perspective.
I hadn’t thought of that one.
And what they do and this is, this is, you know,
there is a debate on everything, but this is kind of a, probably
one of the most, maybe the most common view in most scholarship on this. And,
they they're patterned after Moses and and Elijah, the prophets.
Right. This is very this kind of crazy stuff.
But the point is, they're depicting the way that we're supposed
to, where that the church is expected to be in this time.
Right?
Which is people that bear witness to Jesus,
and that,
as we bear witness, God may be sending
tribulation and judgment onto this world.
Right.
but at the same at the end,
you know, the beast overcomes us by death.
And there's, you know, that's what happens in that story.
And in other parts of Revelation, the beast is given power to destroy them.
And then God brings them back, right?
Eventually his people, God's people, will be vindicated on the last day.
Those are the pictures that Revelation uses
about how Jesus kingdom advances now.
The call in Revelation is, is not to try
not to invest messianic hope in one of the horns of the beast, right?
One of the beastly figures.
But to bear witness to by our lives, by our words,
is to bear witness to Jesus and
yeah. To suffer. Right?
Right. Or Paul or Paul?
John pictures in a different way when he talks
about the mark's, the mark of the beast, the mark of God, which we talked about.
Jesus kingdom advances by being somebody who overcomes,
by refusing to be stamped by the beast way of doing things on your life, right.
And so that's the the consistently
through the book of Revelation is,
Jesus’ people are never,
are actually very much not supposed to assimilate into the beast.
Right?
They're supposed to not say, well,
maybe if we get the right part of the beast,
we can get the this part of the beast to do
to bring about what the lamb wants type of thing, right?
It's no, bear witness,
expect to suffer and and then overcome.
So again, this is not to sell us like
I'm not here saying it's wrong to vote or it's right to vote.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have leanings politically one way or the other,
but what I am saying is that when this part of
why we're supposed to read the book of Revelation regularly, I think,
I think is that it gets this, this vision in our head so that when we start,
when we start, when our hearts start saying,
this candidate,
I'm going to invest all of my hopes for our society,
keeping our society from going down the drain into this candidate.
I start thinking, you know, that sounds a little weirdly like,
that sounds a little bit weirdly like me, bowing toward the beast.
Like, why?
Who side of my on right, like, am I?
Why do I expect that guy?
Especially given all of his deep flaws?
why do I expect.
Why am I acting as though he's the one who's going to bring about new creation,
or he's the one who's but, you know, and, it's
that it's not the hey, I think he might be the
lesser of two evils, and therefore I'm going to support that.
I'm not talking about that.
but I think it I am speaking very much against the idolatry
that often plagues the United States, specifically that we think that,
we have some special status as God's country or something,
or that a certain political party, in our circles it’s the Republican Party
most predominantly that gets this has,
is is God's agent for doing for doing things
when instead too often I think what we've seen
is, I like to say that any time
we invest messianic hope
into someone other than the Messiah,
that person becomes for us an Antichrist, an anti-Messiah.
That's all an Antichrist really is.
It's somebody who who is expected to do what the Messiah
will do,
which is to rule right, to rule the world and to fix everything.
And Revelation doesn't call us to look for one specific final Antichrist
only Revelation calls us to see the way that our hearts can turn
any ruler into our own Antichrist.
And the way that that if we think you know
Jesus is our Savior, but a certain political candidate is our,
we basically turn him into a sub Savior, which happens with Trump
these days, right.
and I'm not I'm only talking about him because that's the predominant
figure in our circles.
I mean, we can say the same thing about other people.
we might be turning for us.
I'm not saying he's the final.
I'm not saying any one person is the final antichrist,
but we may be turning them into our own Antichrist,
because we're putting too much messianic hope on someone who should.
He's not. Yeah, exactly.
So what do we do?
Like, how do we. Because this is so easy
to to go down that street, right?
I mean, like the fixation with power is just right there, like earthly powers.
I'm saying like, because it's just, oh, if we could just, you know,
get this person and or get that thing, we could we could make all the...
You know, there's this,
it's it's so in us as humans.
I mean,
maybe that's just part of our fallen nature,
that sense of wanting to dominate something, I don't know,
what do we do?
What would you encourage our listeners to do?
Read the book of Revelation,
though. Seriously, though, like, look at it.
You know, look at the call.
Just have the images in our mind when our heart starts to say
he's going to fix everything or she's going to fix everything,
you know, if if this doesn't happen, all of my hopes are my
I'm almost have eschatological hope in this in this particular figure.
Then I should start feeling,
this starts that's not the Messiah.
I know, because Jesus is the Messiah.
And if I'm starting to bow to that, to this individual
or invest the new heavens that I'm basically hoping the new heavens
and the earth comes through this person, just in a small way, I get it.
you know, my heart's in the wrong place.
I remember that this person, they may be a good person.
They may not be.
But there's ways in which those power structures
and the temptations I'm tempted to will participate in the power of the beast.
Right.
Yeah.
It's really that I think so again, it's not don't have political opinions.
It's not don't have a leaning one way or the other.
It's not don't think it doesn't matter. The elections do matter.
but it is
remember that we're waiting for Jesus the King to fix everything.
Really.
And that until then, any shortcuts that we try
is actually in Revelation terms pictures.
it may be a colluding with the beast.
And we see that play out in real life, the way that Christians who put this kind
of eschatological hope in these figures have to compromise, right?
You have to downplay a certain candidate's sins,
or you have to downplay a certain way, the way that a certain
political platform,
does not fully represent,
you know, godly values, right?
If if you're just saying, hey, I think this candidate's better than the other,
you can still say, but I think that position is terrible.
I think that position is terrible.
But some people cross this line where their heart, it's hardly
their hardly able
to say negative things about their party or their candidate anymore.
Yeah, that's the one that really gets me to,
because at that point you're also crossing a line of honesty you are
but but that but see, I think that's quintessential
what it means to start colluding with the beast.
Right.
You're losing your witness.
Revelations all about Christians are supposed to bear witness to Jesus,
and you are unable to do that fully because you're trying to participate,
in a, in a
anti messianic way, in, in that, in that power structure.
you're.
Yeah, you're you're participating in the wrong system.
I don't know if that's the right word, but it's like you have Jesus
and His kingdom and clearly what we are called to be witnesses.
And then you have some people over here trying to do whatever.
And and we're getting all sucked into that.
He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're losing your focus on the real thing.
And I think once you start, once you start not being able to bear witness anymore,
then you've gotten then you've probably gotten
snatched by the the jaws of the beast, right.
so that's just, I don't know, these are some more
these this isn't, like, in-depth in a specific passage or Revelation,
but I think it's a really important,
like way that Revelation is supposed to speak to us.
Right? Yeah.
But it's interesting,
but yet it's been used to flip the other way around as a cop out.
Yeah.
To say, actually, we should be getting involved in these things.
And so it's interesting to have you dig into this a bit more and say, whoa, whoa,
you know, let's really look at the bigger picture.
What's what's going on here with this messianic
fervor almost, that can get that's so easy to do.
You know, John's first reader Revelations first readers were supposed
to look at their own society, Rome, and recognize it as the beast.
Right, in a sense. And then,
but but we are still supposed
to see power structures as participating in that same.
There's good to participate because rulership is a good thing as well.
Kingship is a good thing, but it's always tainted by the beast.
And so I think the call of Revelation applies to us.
Don't turn Revelation into something where we have, well, the
the Democrats or the Russians or the whoever they are, the beast.
And that's that's not what Revelation says.
Revelation says bear witness to Jesus.
And remember that your society and the huge and the
the empire that your society is and our societies is a, the United States
is a massive socioeconomic, military, political empire,
is something that is part of
or at the very least massively tainted with the power of the beast.
Right?
It's not those out there.
It's not just the the other party.
It's it's where I live and the temptations I have.
And the beast is not the lamb, right?
Yeah. That's wow.
Is this is a lot to think about.
And hopefully this encourages listeners to remember our role as bearing witness
you know, and keeping our messianic hopes pointed towards the actual messiah.
You know.
But it's just so.
And when you know, even when saying something
like I was like, well, yeah, of course, obviously.
No, I mean, Jesus is the Messiah, but like in day to day life, it's,
you can lose that so fast, right?
You know, that's why I at the beginning, I started talking about how Jesus,
when we say he's the king, I mean literally
will be, will reign like it's not just an ethereal thing.
Right.
and that helps me to remember. Oh, oops.
Messiah isn't just this abstract theological term.
It's the Messiah is the one, the King that I expect
to solve all the world's problems. That's what.
That's what the messianic king is supposed to do, right?
And if I start having that expectation on anyone other than Jesus,
I'm following an Antichrist.
They are, at least to me, an Antichrist, right?
Yeah.
that's so true.
And that is,
that is something we need to constantly be reminded of
because, you know, we're humans
and we forget stuff and we're like, oh, but you can get all wound up into this...
we're waiting a long time and so and so we kind of, you know,
our lampstands our, the oil kind of goes out and we just fall asleep.
Right.
And that's the point of Revelation is to wake us up Wow. Wow.
That's so powerful.
Well hopefully this is encouragement to everybody.
Go go read Revelation again you know and be a witness
for witness for the actual messiah and not try to put that on a mere human,
you know, or an earthly power system that at the end of the day, it's just not it.
It's not the real thing. Yeah. Wow.
Thanks so much for sharing today, Paul. I really appreciate it.
Thanks for listening to this episode
on Revelation and Politics with Paul Lamicela.
If you enjoyed this conversation,
go check out our earlier episode we did with him on
how to read the Book of Revelation that's linked in the description below.
You can find all our content, including others with Paul,
over on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.
Thanks again for listening and we'll see you in the next episode.