Speaker: 00:00:00

What we've tended to do is pull all the,

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like, nasty,

sort of ugly beast imagery from Revelation

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and apply it to

whatever political opponents we have

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and apply it to

whatever political opponents we have

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with the

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sort of

implication that whichever side we're on

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is headed up by some good,

you know, right.

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That dichotomy.

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But you even mentioned it before,

how sometimes you hear things like

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if we don't get our guy in,

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but that's kind of strange, right?

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Because in a sense, the story of the Bible

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and the story of Revelation

is that we have our guy.

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Well, Paul

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Lamicela, welcome back

to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.

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So we've done a few episodes

with you on the Book of Revelation,

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and people can check those out.

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There'll be down in the description,

but today

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we want to get a little more specific.

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I think it's the most requested

that we've had on any topic.

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Is have you back on

do more on the book of Revelation.

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So we're going to be doing that today.

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And there's one specifically

that we're going to get into

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that is this whole realm of the beast

and earthly kingdoms that are involved

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in, in this,

this honestly kind of bizarre book. Yes.

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that that's here.

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So we're going to take just that,

because I know the one we did

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before was more like,

how do we read this book as a whole?

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but we're going to zone in a bit more.

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So why don't you just take it from here?

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we'll launch into it

and we'll see where this, where we end up.

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Yeah, well, one of the things that,

we we were saying before,

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is that reading Revelation

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this way,

hopefully our listeners have all watched

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at least the first episode on Revelation

that we did a couple months ago.

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it it means

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that Revelation is a book

that has deep significance

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and practical application

for Christians today.

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And I think the intersection that I want

to look, we want to look at right now

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is, is, is

how does Revelation speak to our thinking

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as specifically Americans,

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about politics?

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Oh boy.

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And just I'm not entirely sure

when this episode is going to be released,

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but we're, we're right in the heat

of an election season right now.

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You know, we're two months out from it

from a presidential elections.

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so I mean, we're hearing all the typical

things that we hear in the American,

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evangelical scene especially,

but where it's like,

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who's God's candidate

and all of this stuff.

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I don't want to get

into any of this business

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because it's just it's just a mess

as it always is.

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But what are some principles

that we're going to pull out of here?

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So And and I think this

is, this is something where,

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I think we have Anabaptists.

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I think traditionally,

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have been told

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not to get involved in politics

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and because that's our stance,

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we then, don't give anymore, like

teaching on how to think about politics

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because the assumption is, well, we just

we stay out of it.

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But, you know, spoiler alert,

we actually don't, right?

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We all we all think about politics,

at least have opinions.

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And that's not that's not wrong.

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But the problem is I think and this

this isn't going to like address all that.

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But I think this is something

I think that needs to be taught more is,

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because I feel like there's this gap,

there's this empty space where we say,

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well, we don't get involved in politics,

and that's it.

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That's the only thing we have to say about

politics is stay out of it.

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But then on the ground level,

we all have political opinions.

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And some of us, some people,

some people in our audience vote,

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some probably a lot don't.

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But some, you know, there's

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there's a there's a variety of things

that happen in our circles.

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but because there's

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no teaching on like, how

you should actually think about politics,

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I think that vacuum is filled

by radio podcasts like the same.

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Yeah.

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The world ends up teaching us,

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our society ends up teaching us

how to think about politics.

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because there's this vacuum,

and that's that's very real.

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I mean, I've ran into that all the time.

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It's like, oh, well,

I don't really get involved, but,

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you know, I'll listen

to, you know, Ben Shapiro or whatever,

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you know, and it's like, okay.

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So that is still informing you,

you know, one way or another.

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Yeah.

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We almost have no way of,

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of saying, okay, let's think through

how to think politically.

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Right. Because our official stance is

we won't get involved. Right.

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So I think we need more,

we need to acknowledge look,

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we we all do have political opinions

or not

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all of us, but a lot of us

do have political opinions.

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And, are we

the political opinions that we have?

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Are they being shaped by whatever,

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you know, secular societal trends or even,

you know, broader Christian trends

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that are secular Christian trends

or the that merger of them?

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are we being shaped by that

or are we being shaped by Scripture? So,

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I think

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that, one of the things the place to start

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is to, to recognize that when we speak

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of God's kingdom or Jesus kingdom,

I think we have often turned that

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into some sort of spiritualized

ethereal principle.

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Right.

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The kingdom of God is like this

theological idea, right?

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That that is this,

I don't know, ethereal God.

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Jesus is the King.

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He tells us what to do and we follow him.

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And then eventually

we go up to heaven or something, right?

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but in the storyline of the Bible,

the Kingdom of God is decidedly not that

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that when when we speak of Jesus kingdom

or the kingdom of God, we are thinking

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very specifically of the fulfillment

of the promises that God gave to David.

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But they would be an unending line

that would reign over

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God's people, but also over the nations.

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and we're thinking of

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the vision of the prophets that someday

God would come back to his people,

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restore them, and a

the true Messiah would reign over them.

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It's it's a vision,

not of some sort of distant,

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ethereal thing,

but it's the vision of, a real kingdom.

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This is why Jesus taught us to pray.

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May your kingdom

come on earth as it is in heaven, right?

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Jesus as the King is not an abstract king,

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but he is presented in the Gospels

as being the heir to the Davidic throne.

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Right? The true Israel's true king.

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the true.

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Yeah. Who therefore has has rule over

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God's people

and the nations in a restored earth.

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Like it's very it's grounded in,

in the hist in history and also on earth.

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Right. Jesus.

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Jesus is the rightful king who

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we are waiting for him

to completely trample all his.

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The rest, you know his enemies

and reign on earth as in heaven.

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And if that's the case,

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then that has to mean

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that there, there is at least potentially

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some real conflict between that kingdom

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that we, that real kingdom that we're in

and that we're awaiting

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and, the rest of the rulers of the world.

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Right.

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And that's

going to manifest itself different

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because there's there's some countries

and some societies

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that have been more impacted

by Christianity than others.

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And therefore, there's

going to be some rulers that are that

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rule better than others

and things like that.

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but the impulse that we should have is

we should be thinking,

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what I'm ultimately waiting for

is indeed a real king

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to return to earth and reign

over all the kingdoms of the world

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and put all things to right here on earth

as in heaven, right?

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And that, I think, can slowly start

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changing the way

we think about politics in general.

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Right.

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It's not we can't just

we can't just put Jesus and the kingdom

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of God up into this

separate theological sphere.

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We have to say, wait a minute.

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When I start thinking about

where my hopes are set

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for the restoration of my country

or society or whatever, is that, am I?

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Is that in conflict? Is that,

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somehow, dividing my loyalty to a real,

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actual kingdom that I'm waiting to

come on the same planet, right?

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Or the renewed version of it? Right.

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and this is where, the apostles.

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So in acts four, for example.

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So in acts four, for example.

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so Psalm two looms large

in the discussion of politics

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and the kingdom of God versus the beast

or the or Rome or whatever.

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Psalm two is this, famous psalm where,

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it starts out, why do the nations rage

and the peoples plot in vain?

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The kings of the earth set themselves

up against Yahweh and his anointed, the

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the Davidic figure or the Messiah figure.

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Right? And they say, let's stop.

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Let's burst their bonds apart,

cast away their cords from us.

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So it's like all it's

picturing all these nations

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saying, oh, we don't want Yahweh's

king to rule over us.

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We get rid of rid of them.

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But then God laughs.

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He thinks, this is what a joke, right?

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Good.

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You're going to try to rebel against me

and my anointed king.

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Good luck. Good luck with that.

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And then

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God says, as for me, I have set my

my King on Zion, my holy hill.

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And then Yahweh says to me, to the

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the implied speaker, here you are my son,

the king, the anointed king.

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Today I have begotten you.

I become your father.

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So, ask me, and I will make the nations

your heritage, the ends of the earth,

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your possession.

You will break them with a rod of iron,

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dash them in pieces

like a potter's vessel.

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So then he turns back to the rest of

the nations that are trying to get out of,

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you know, to rebel against this.

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So kings

be smart and serve Yahweh with fear

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and kiss the sun, bow down to the sun

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and, submit to the to the messianic ruler.

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Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

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And that Psalm looms all over the place.

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So in acts four,

the apostles just get persecuted by,

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they had just gotten beaten up,

I think, as, as kind of tended to happen

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that was kind of

just like par for the course.

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Yeah. So,

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Peter

and John were called before the Sanhedrin,

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and then they got released, and then they,

200

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they go back to their prayer

meeting or whatever.

201

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And in acts four the people,

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they got together

after they heard the report

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of their persecution,

they're getting beaten up or whatever.

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And they pray.

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Psalm two,

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Psalm two,

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they say, sovereign Lord,

who made heaven and earth

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through the mouth of our father David,

you said by the Holy Spirit,

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why do the Gentiles rage

and the peoples plot in vain?

210

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The kings of the earth set themselves,

211

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and the rulers are gathered together

against the Lord and his anointed.

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And then they say, truly, in this city

they were gathered

213

00:10:42,308 --> 00:10:45,269

together against your holy servant

Jesus, whom you anointed.

214

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Both Herod and Pontius Pilate,

along with the Gentiles

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and the people of Israel,

to do whatever your hand

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00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:52,276

and your plan had predestined

to take place.

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What they're doing is they're recognizing

in the way that they're being mistreated

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and in the way that Jesus had just been,

219

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killed.

220

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And then, of course, rose again.

221

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But they're recognizing, oh, that's

that's this, right.

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When they saw Herod and they see, Pilate

and and the Jewish leaders conspiring

223

00:11:12,254 --> 00:11:15,966

against God's anointed, they're saying,

yeah, that's that's Psalm two.

224

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And now they recognize,

our being persecuted

225

00:11:17,927 --> 00:11:20,554

is a continuation of that,

like God's still,

226

00:11:20,554 --> 00:11:23,224

the nations are still raging

against the rule

227

00:11:23,224 --> 00:11:25,810

of the Messiah.

228

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and this same psalm

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appears in Revelation 11.

230

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Oh yeah. Okay.

231

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Multiple times. Interesting, interesting.

232

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Now that that I was not aware of.

233

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Yeah, it's it's kind of big.

234

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So Revelation 11

235

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verse 15.

236

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After the seventh trumpet.

237

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So this sort of represents,

238

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the the final, sort

of the final culmination of all things.

239

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The seventh angel blows his trumpet

240

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and the voices in heaven say,

the kingdom of the world

241

00:11:56,340 --> 00:11:58,592

has become the kingdom of our Lord

and of his Messiah,

242

00:11:58,592 --> 00:12:01,095

and he shall reign forever

and ever, right? God?

243

00:12:01,095 --> 00:12:02,388

Jesus has finally

244

00:12:03,597 --> 00:12:04,014

taken the

245

00:12:04,014 --> 00:12:07,893

throne on earth as it is in heaven,

and the elders fall in their faces

246

00:12:07,893 --> 00:12:10,855

and they say, we give

thanks to you who was and who is.

247

00:12:11,313 --> 00:12:13,482

For you have taken your power

and begun to reign.

248

00:12:13,482 --> 00:12:16,527

The nations raged, but your wrath came,

and the time for the dead

249

00:12:16,527 --> 00:12:17,903

to be rewarded, etc.

250

00:12:17,903 --> 00:12:20,489

and so recognizing,

you know, the end of that.

251

00:12:20,489 --> 00:12:23,492

So, Jesus, at the,

252

00:12:23,909 --> 00:12:26,704

at the end of after his resurrection

at the end of Matthew's

253

00:12:26,704 --> 00:12:30,291

gospel says all authority has been given

in heaven and on earth to me.

254

00:12:30,624 --> 00:12:31,417

Right?

255

00:12:31,417 --> 00:12:34,378

He recognizes that in his he's

256

00:12:34,378 --> 00:12:37,381

been he's conquered, he has overcome.

257

00:12:37,631 --> 00:12:43,012

he is now the the resurrected Messiah who

258

00:12:44,638 --> 00:12:46,140

so in the beginning of Matthew's

259

00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:49,935

gospel, the devil tempts him

with all the kingdoms of the world, right?

260

00:12:49,935 --> 00:12:53,063

If you'll bow down to worship, he's like,

because the devil knows

261

00:12:53,063 --> 00:12:56,400

that that is Jesus rightful

inheritance, right?

262

00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,069

He's the devil,

presumably has read Psalm two,

263

00:12:59,069 --> 00:13:02,072

and he says he's basically offering

Jesus a shortcut.

264

00:13:02,406 --> 00:13:03,032

Yeah.

265

00:13:03,032 --> 00:13:03,365

yeah.

266

00:13:03,365 --> 00:13:06,327

It's almost like you can have this

right now if You can have it right now.

267

00:13:06,327 --> 00:13:08,370

Or you could do it the hard way, right?

268

00:13:08,370 --> 00:13:11,415

The suffering way, the death way. Right?

269

00:13:11,832 --> 00:13:15,044

And Jesus says, no, I will trust that

270

00:13:15,044 --> 00:13:18,172

God will give me the

kingdoms of the world. But

271

00:13:19,381 --> 00:13:20,549

there's for him.

272

00:13:20,549 --> 00:13:21,425

There's like two options.

273

00:13:21,425 --> 00:13:24,386

He could bow down to the dragon

274

00:13:24,512 --> 00:13:26,931

and get it that way

with no suffering involved.

275

00:13:26,931 --> 00:13:30,351

Or he could so he could wander

276

00:13:30,351 --> 00:13:33,354

around and suffer

and eventually be killed.

277

00:13:33,813 --> 00:13:35,397

And God would raise him up and give it.

278

00:13:35,397 --> 00:13:37,900

And that's the route he chose, right?

279

00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:38,818

that is so.

280

00:13:38,818 --> 00:13:42,154

But that means a life where the nations

are raging against him, right?

281

00:13:42,154 --> 00:13:44,824

God vindicated him.

282

00:13:44,824 --> 00:13:48,536

so this Psalm

and the way Jesus received his authority

283

00:13:48,536 --> 00:13:52,873

over the nations becomes a pattern

for the rest of the church.

284

00:13:54,083 --> 00:13:56,502

and it becomes a, I think, a

285

00:13:56,502 --> 00:14:00,214

a part of the lens

that we look at politics through.

286

00:14:00,214 --> 00:14:04,176

Because I think that temptation

that Jesus had

287

00:14:04,176 --> 00:14:07,179

in, in, by the devil,

288

00:14:08,013 --> 00:14:10,307

is a very similar temptation to,

289

00:14:10,307 --> 00:14:13,686

to one that some of us

face in the, in the States right now.

290

00:14:14,061 --> 00:14:14,395

Right.

291

00:14:16,146 --> 00:14:17,523

the New Testament Revelation

292

00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:20,526

and the rest of the New Testament

teaches that,

293

00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:24,238

and the Old Testament Daniel

seven is all about this, that someday

294

00:14:24,238 --> 00:14:28,242

the Son of Man would crush all the

all the earthly kingdoms, the beasts.

295

00:14:28,242 --> 00:14:29,076

Right?

296

00:14:29,076 --> 00:14:32,079

And he and his people, the people of the,

297

00:14:32,079 --> 00:14:35,082

the saints of the of the Most High

would reign.

298

00:14:35,416 --> 00:14:39,128

and Revelation talks about

they will reign, you know, with him.

299

00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:43,007

but the question is how

300

00:14:43,007 --> 00:14:46,010

how do you get there and,

301

00:14:47,261 --> 00:14:48,971

Revelation the rest of the testament too.

302

00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:51,974

But Revelation through its imagery,

I think, helps us

303

00:14:52,224 --> 00:14:56,562

to avoid the the temptation

that Jesus faced by the devil,

304

00:14:56,854 --> 00:15:00,941

which is to get that result reigning,

305

00:15:02,443 --> 00:15:04,069

through, through

306

00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:07,031

sort of compromising with the dragon.

307

00:15:07,615 --> 00:15:07,948

Right?

308

00:15:07,948 --> 00:15:10,951

Instead of suffering and waiting

309

00:15:11,410 --> 00:15:14,413

and entrusting God to give it to us.

310

00:15:14,705 --> 00:15:19,168

So it's like one

option is suffering and patience.

311

00:15:19,209 --> 00:15:20,586

Yeah. Right.

312

00:15:20,586 --> 00:15:23,380

but another option

is the shortcut to power.

313

00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:28,052

So it's like patience or power,

you know, you see this a lot.

314

00:15:28,093 --> 00:15:31,430

You hear terminology like, we need to take

our country back, for example.

315

00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:33,891

And that's a very I mean, not secular.

316

00:15:33,891 --> 00:15:35,935

This is within the church very regularly.

317

00:15:35,935 --> 00:15:39,063

I'm from I'm from the Deep South,

right or South, I, you know,

318

00:15:39,313 --> 00:15:42,191

right on the in Georgia

Tennessee state line, you know.

319

00:15:42,191 --> 00:15:43,609

Yeah, I think so I'm like right there.

320

00:15:43,609 --> 00:15:45,611

So you know and you.

321

00:15:45,611 --> 00:15:46,362

Yes. Yeah.

322

00:15:46,362 --> 00:15:48,072

Anyway so we're from the south right.

323

00:15:48,072 --> 00:15:51,075

And you and you hear that

rhetoric in churches down there.

324

00:15:51,158 --> 00:15:52,451

It feels a bit regional.

325

00:15:52,451 --> 00:15:53,953

I know it's

all across the country as well.

326

00:15:53,953 --> 00:15:57,164

But but you hear things like,

yeah, we have to take our country back.

327

00:15:57,164 --> 00:16:00,668

It's being overrun by whatever evil force.

328

00:16:00,668 --> 00:16:02,753

Yeah, just take your pick.

It changes over time.

329

00:16:02,753 --> 00:16:04,713

It's funny because our

how the our neighbors talked about it

330

00:16:04,713 --> 00:16:09,009

in the 90s versus how they say it now

it's you know but there's when you hear

331

00:16:09,009 --> 00:16:14,098

terminology like that it's it is kind of

this fixation with power is the best.

332

00:16:14,098 --> 00:16:17,101

I can summarize it because, oh,

if we can get our guy

333

00:16:17,351 --> 00:16:19,979

in “our guy”,

334

00:16:19,979 --> 00:16:23,440

then they can use that power to instate,

335

00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,027

whatever Supreme Court justice

or this piece of legislation.

336

00:16:27,444 --> 00:16:32,616

And it always seems like, like that

does seem almost like the shortcut option.

337

00:16:32,616 --> 00:16:34,410

You know, it doesn't seem patient at all.

338

00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:36,912

It's like

we have to grab the power while we can,

339

00:16:36,912 --> 00:16:38,956

because if we don't, we'll never get it

back.

340

00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:40,541

You know, that's another one

you hear all the time.

341

00:16:40,541 --> 00:16:42,501

If we lose this whatever election

342

00:16:42,501 --> 00:16:45,504

and take your pick of whichever

one in the last 100 years, I mean,

343

00:16:45,587 --> 00:16:48,549

the same phraseology

has been used basically every time.

344

00:16:48,549 --> 00:16:49,591

and we're hearing it right now, like

345

00:16:49,591 --> 00:16:53,137

this is the most important election ever

in American history.

346

00:16:53,137 --> 00:16:54,304

And we heard that last time, too.

347

00:16:56,306 --> 00:16:59,018

so it but how do we break out of that?

348

00:16:59,018 --> 00:17:02,021

Because that is such a hold on

349

00:17:02,938 --> 00:17:05,941

on the church and our people.

350

00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:08,861

this fixation of is it

because we're trying for a shortcut

351

00:17:08,861 --> 00:17:10,696

like what's going on here? Exactly.

352

00:17:10,696 --> 00:17:13,157

And then also too,

how does Revelation help inform us?

353

00:17:13,157 --> 00:17:16,160

I feel like that's the other piece

we need to bring in because

354

00:17:16,618 --> 00:17:19,538

sorry, I'm not too not to keep going here,

but it feels like that's a big piece.

355

00:17:19,538 --> 00:17:22,499

So one I've heard is like, well,

we can read in Revelation

356

00:17:22,499 --> 00:17:24,251

all these horrible things

that are going to happen.

357

00:17:24,251 --> 00:17:27,921

So what we need is the right figures

in power

358

00:17:27,921 --> 00:17:31,216

that can stand between us and this evil

that's going to come to the church,

359

00:17:31,216 --> 00:17:35,429

and they're going to help

hold back the evil and allow righteousness

360

00:17:35,429 --> 00:17:37,056

to keep going

within the church and blah, blah.

361

00:17:37,056 --> 00:17:38,223

So they'll use Revelation

362

00:17:38,223 --> 00:17:41,685

as the reason for therefore,

you must get involved politically.

363

00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:45,355

And you're suggesting,

no, we got it completely backwards.

364

00:17:45,355 --> 00:17:47,149

Okay. So make that case.

365

00:17:47,149 --> 00:17:51,487

This is one of my beefs

with with the way that Revelation has been

366

00:17:51,779 --> 00:17:55,407

most commonly

read in American evangelicalism, right,

367

00:17:55,741 --> 00:17:58,744

is that it actually ends up

368

00:17:58,952 --> 00:18:01,789

becoming a resource for people to,

369

00:18:04,166 --> 00:18:05,709

against their political opponents

370

00:18:05,709 --> 00:18:09,046

and for taking back whatever it is through

371

00:18:09,588 --> 00:18:12,966

colluding with, you know,

whatever flawed candidate there is.

372

00:18:12,966 --> 00:18:14,051

Right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

373

00:18:14,051 --> 00:18:17,054

Because apocalyptic imagery is conjured up

every time.

374

00:18:17,262 --> 00:18:20,057

Like, this is routine,

you know, that Revelation imagery

375

00:18:20,057 --> 00:18:24,561

is used like to get votes

or to get whatever, whatever it might be,

376

00:18:24,728 --> 00:18:28,857

you know, But and this is

this is why I think it's so important to

377

00:18:29,608 --> 00:18:32,152

to say, remember that this is a real

378

00:18:32,152 --> 00:18:35,155

Jesus kingdom is not some abstract

metaphorical thing.

379

00:18:35,405 --> 00:18:37,658

It's a real thing. Jesus is the King.

380

00:18:37,658 --> 00:18:38,992

Because, yes,

381

00:18:38,992 --> 00:18:42,037

because he's the incarnate son,

but also because he's the Son of David.

382

00:18:42,371 --> 00:18:45,040

Right? It's a real grounded thing.

383

00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,376

And if that's true,

384

00:18:47,376 --> 00:18:48,877

we can't just start.

385

00:18:48,877 --> 00:18:50,003

we can't just start.

386

00:18:50,003 --> 00:18:52,381

What we've tended to do is pull all the,

387

00:18:52,381 --> 00:18:57,219

like, nasty,

sort of ugly beast imagery from Revelation

388

00:18:57,511 --> 00:19:01,849

and apply it to

whatever political opponents we have

389

00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:03,433

with the

390

00:19:03,433 --> 00:19:07,396

sort of

implication that whichever side we're on

391

00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:12,109

is headed up by some good,

you know, right.

392

00:19:12,109 --> 00:19:13,402

That dichotomy.

393

00:19:13,402 --> 00:19:16,780

But you even mentioned it before,

how sometimes you hear things like

394

00:19:16,780 --> 00:19:19,783

if we don't get our guy in,

395

00:19:19,867 --> 00:19:21,368

but that's kind of strange, right?

396

00:19:21,368 --> 00:19:25,539

Because in a sense, the story of the Bible

397

00:19:25,539 --> 00:19:29,168

and the story of Revelation

is that we have our guy.

398

00:19:31,336 --> 00:19:34,131

Oh, Jesus.

399

00:19:34,131 --> 00:19:36,175

That's interesting. Yeah. Okay.

400

00:19:36,175 --> 00:19:38,468

Because I've heard it flipped.

401

00:19:38,468 --> 00:19:42,681

Like, if they they it's basically like,

if we don't get our guy

402

00:19:42,681 --> 00:19:44,558

in, we're going to lose everything. Right?

403

00:19:44,558 --> 00:19:47,519

And it felt to me that, well, then

404

00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:50,355

there's no faith there,

it feels like or something.

405

00:19:50,355 --> 00:19:54,443

It's almost like some earthly power

is responsible to keep God's plan

406

00:19:54,443 --> 00:19:55,652

and working properly.

407

00:19:55,652 --> 00:19:57,946

So, I don't know, it

just felt weird. It just something's off.

408

00:19:57,946 --> 00:19:59,323

someone said, I like this.

409

00:19:59,323 --> 00:20:02,993

Someone said, you know, you

a political position or party or

410

00:20:03,202 --> 00:20:06,205

or candidate can have your lean,

but not your bow.

411

00:20:06,413 --> 00:20:07,581

It's fine to lean, right?

412

00:20:07,581 --> 00:20:09,875

We all lean politically.

I have political leanings.

413

00:20:09,875 --> 00:20:13,503

I won't, I'll try not to talk about them,

but, we all have political leanings.

414

00:20:13,921 --> 00:20:15,214

But when we start,

415

00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:20,719

when we start having our guy that isn't

416

00:20:22,221 --> 00:20:25,224

that that we can't say, look, he's flawed.

417

00:20:25,974 --> 00:20:27,851

he might be a problem person.

418

00:20:27,851 --> 00:20:31,855

I tend to agree with more of his policies

and others, but I recognize

419

00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:35,359

that until Jesus comes back,

there will still be a mess, right?

420

00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,613

If we start going beyond that

and having to turn this guy into our guy.

421

00:20:40,447 --> 00:20:43,450

you. It sounds like you're starting

to substitute Jesus

422

00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,703

for one of these other characters, right?

423

00:20:46,954 --> 00:20:49,957

And the book of Revelation,

the reason the book of Revelation

424

00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,211

is really helpful is it

is this starkly dichotomous book, right?

425

00:20:54,503 --> 00:20:56,797

It's very black and white.

426

00:20:56,797 --> 00:20:58,382

and that's good

because it's jarring, right?

427

00:20:58,382 --> 00:21:01,468

Of course, reality is very complex,

very nuanced, very gray.

428

00:21:02,261 --> 00:21:02,928

and everything else.

429

00:21:02,928 --> 00:21:07,015

But Revelation reminds us

that, hey, at the end of the day,

430

00:21:08,183 --> 00:21:10,143

they're really

431

00:21:10,143 --> 00:21:12,521

drawing on the book of Daniel.

432

00:21:12,521 --> 00:21:14,564

there are, at the end of the day,

433

00:21:14,564 --> 00:21:17,442

the beasts, the beastly kingdoms,

434

00:21:17,442 --> 00:21:21,154

and they will be conquered by the one

like a son of man.

435

00:21:21,947 --> 00:21:23,282

Right.

436

00:21:23,282 --> 00:21:27,119

and so, so what Revelation is trying to do

437

00:21:27,744 --> 00:21:30,414

is to tell the first readers,

438

00:21:30,414 --> 00:21:33,417

and by implication, us.

439

00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:35,627

it's picturing

440

00:21:35,627 --> 00:21:40,048

the rulers, the leaders, the

the forces, maybe socioeconomic forces

441

00:21:40,048 --> 00:21:43,051

as well of their day painting them,

442

00:21:43,218 --> 00:21:46,471

with sort of imagery

from the Book of Daniel.

443

00:21:46,471 --> 00:21:47,097

Right.

444

00:21:47,097 --> 00:21:50,100

So the beast, this beast imagery,

445

00:21:51,768 --> 00:21:53,353

or Rome or Babylon

446

00:21:53,353 --> 00:21:56,398

language,

they come together in Revelation.

447

00:21:56,398 --> 00:21:59,401

Revelation uses the beast,

448

00:21:59,526 --> 00:22:03,071

Babylon and Rome sort of interchangeably

in a lot of ways.

449

00:22:03,113 --> 00:22:04,781

That makes a lot of sense.

450

00:22:04,781 --> 00:22:05,699

Yeah. Okay.

451

00:22:05,699 --> 00:22:08,702

And there's reasons for that.

452

00:22:08,702 --> 00:22:10,662

why those specifically I mean, obviously.

453

00:22:10,662 --> 00:22:12,205

Well, Babylon,

that kind of makes sense, right?

454

00:22:12,205 --> 00:22:14,041

The 70 years of captivity. Right.

455

00:22:14,041 --> 00:22:15,375

Is that where that's coming from?

456

00:22:15,375 --> 00:22:16,460

Nebuchadnezzar and such.

457

00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:21,757

so Rome and Babylon were are the only two

empires that ever destroyed the temple.

458

00:22:22,174 --> 00:22:22,591

Right.

459

00:22:22,591 --> 00:22:26,428

And and sort of conquered,

conquered Israel, in a sense.

460

00:22:26,428 --> 00:22:26,720

Right.

461

00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,431

They're the most theologically significant

in those ways.

462

00:22:29,431 --> 00:22:30,390

And if you're a Christian,

463

00:22:31,391 --> 00:22:33,393

so if

you're Jewish, that that really matters.

464

00:22:33,393 --> 00:22:34,394

And if you’re a christian that matters.

465

00:22:34,394 --> 00:22:37,356

But if you're a Christian, you also have

the added layer that Rome is.

466

00:22:37,356 --> 00:22:41,693

The, is the empire

that that put the Messiah to death.

467

00:22:42,361 --> 00:22:42,861

Right.

468

00:22:42,861 --> 00:22:46,323

And so there's this extra layer of,

of beast to it.

469

00:22:46,365 --> 00:22:46,948

Right?

470

00:22:46,948 --> 00:22:53,038

So Daniel portrayed these, these beasts,

and we won't go into all that,

471

00:22:53,038 --> 00:22:54,790

but these beasts representing different

472

00:22:54,790 --> 00:22:58,668

kingdoms and these, you know,

these are kind of monstrous characters

473

00:22:58,668 --> 00:23:03,840

that that reign violently and,

you know, very much against against God.

474

00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,301

And then in, in the clouds of heaven

475

00:23:06,301 --> 00:23:07,511

coming with the clouds of heaven, there's

476

00:23:07,511 --> 00:23:12,140

this human figure, one like a son of man,

to whom God gives full

477

00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:15,143

dominion and authority

over all the kingdoms of the earth.

478

00:23:15,227 --> 00:23:16,978

and he, with his people,

479

00:23:17,979 --> 00:23:19,356

will destroy.

480

00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:21,775

He destroys the beasts,

481

00:23:21,775 --> 00:23:23,402

and then reigns, you know, forever.

482

00:23:23,402 --> 00:23:26,655

And and it's that that Revelation draws on

483

00:23:26,863 --> 00:23:31,410

when when John pictures the beast that is.

484

00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:34,496

And there's there's a couple beasts and

everything else but these, these beastly,

485

00:23:35,580 --> 00:23:35,997

kingdoms.

486

00:23:35,997 --> 00:23:38,625

He even says some, you know,

one of the beast has seven heads.

487

00:23:38,625 --> 00:23:40,919

Who? Which are the seven,

which are seven mountains,

488

00:23:40,919 --> 00:23:43,922

which we talked about in an early episode

that represents the seven hills of Rome.

489

00:23:44,172 --> 00:23:48,635

And that's just an obvious, imagery that

first readers would have picked up on.

490

00:23:48,802 --> 00:23:50,303

It's also Seven Kings, right?

491

00:23:50,303 --> 00:23:53,765

They represent

not one individual, but represent Rome.

492

00:23:53,974 --> 00:23:54,599

Right.

493

00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:58,770

But can also be called the harlot

that rides on the beast is called Babylon.

494

00:23:58,770 --> 00:23:59,521

Right?

495

00:23:59,521 --> 00:24:04,317

Because it's it's not Rome

sort of historical Rome alone.

496

00:24:04,609 --> 00:24:09,406

It's Rome with what Rome represents,

which is the power of the beast, which is,

497

00:24:10,282 --> 00:24:13,618

the oppressive, anti-God,

498

00:24:14,578 --> 00:24:17,581

anti-Messiah domination of the world.

499

00:24:17,706 --> 00:24:17,998

Right.

500

00:24:17,998 --> 00:24:22,502

It's the force, it’s the forces of power

that are not submitting to Jesus,

501

00:24:23,044 --> 00:24:24,463

but are very much opposed to him.

502

00:24:25,547 --> 00:24:28,175

but you

could essentially put any earthly kingdom

503

00:24:28,175 --> 00:24:31,636

then would fit in that camp

to, to an extent, would it not?

504

00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:32,596

To an extent, yeah.

505

00:24:32,596 --> 00:24:34,389

We should be careful with that,

that we're not,

506

00:24:34,389 --> 00:24:37,976

you know, over oversell

or we want to be careful with that.

507

00:24:38,185 --> 00:24:38,477

Yeah.

508

00:24:38,477 --> 00:24:42,606

Because you know, like some

are you know, clearly I think

509

00:24:43,398 --> 00:24:46,985

no one's going to argue that,

the current United States government

510

00:24:46,985 --> 00:24:50,572

is significantly better than the Nazi

regime or something like that.

511

00:24:50,572 --> 00:24:52,574

Right. so, yes.

512

00:24:52,574 --> 00:24:56,828

But what it doesn't allow us to do

is to say one

513

00:24:57,037 --> 00:25:00,040

earthly human kingdom is

514

00:25:00,707 --> 00:25:04,002

is sort of subcontracted out by the lamb

515

00:25:04,002 --> 00:25:07,005

or the Son of Man to rule on his behalf.

516

00:25:07,088 --> 00:25:11,384

And then the other one, you know,

Russia is the beast, but America is sort

517

00:25:11,384 --> 00:25:17,015

of gets a 1099 every year from, from

Jesus to, to reign on his behalf.

518

00:25:17,015 --> 00:25:20,852

You know, But that is essentially

that is kind of the idea, right?

519

00:25:20,852 --> 00:25:23,063

Like America, this is the ideal.

520

00:25:23,063 --> 00:25:27,734

At least America as this amazing force

for righteousness, keeping evil at bay

521

00:25:27,734 --> 00:25:29,319

around the world, etc., etc., etc..

522

00:25:31,112 --> 00:25:32,864

I'm not really sure where that even comes

from.

523

00:25:32,864 --> 00:25:35,909

Like that started somewhere, I don't know,

manifest Destiny or something,

524

00:25:36,117 --> 00:25:40,705

but but it just kind of gets a little odd

because then when you read these sections

525

00:25:40,705 --> 00:25:43,708

in Revelation,

if you have that as your framework,

526

00:25:43,708 --> 00:25:46,711

you will automatically exempt,

I'm assuming, at least

527

00:25:46,836 --> 00:25:50,173

exempting this country from that list.

528

00:25:50,173 --> 00:25:53,176

Right? Right. And you would be like, yeah,

but we're the good guys.

529

00:25:53,176 --> 00:25:54,344

But that doesn't fit right.

530

00:25:54,344 --> 00:25:59,224

Because the only good guy is Jesus

in the story of Revelation, right?

531

00:25:59,516 --> 00:25:59,849

Yeah.

532

00:25:59,849 --> 00:26:02,852

The other empires of the world are

533

00:26:04,312 --> 00:26:06,439

are a mix at best, right?

534

00:26:06,439 --> 00:26:09,150

but all of them are.

535

00:26:09,150 --> 00:26:11,611

You're going to see beast in all of them.

536

00:26:11,611 --> 00:26:14,030

And that's what John, of the things

John wants us to see.

537

00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:15,782

And if you actually look

538

00:26:15,782 --> 00:26:19,077

at the history of any country,

you will see plenty of beast.

539

00:26:19,619 --> 00:26:20,161

Right?

540

00:26:20,161 --> 00:26:21,246

Like it's it's cute

541

00:26:21,246 --> 00:26:25,292

to think of America as this sort of force

for good in the world.

542

00:26:25,667 --> 00:26:28,670

And they're they're there are

543

00:26:29,045 --> 00:26:31,756

there is a bit of truth there,

544

00:26:31,756 --> 00:26:35,468

but there's also a lot of ways

in which the United States has been

545

00:26:36,177 --> 00:26:39,931

has done profoundly terrible things,

like terrible things.

546

00:26:40,765 --> 00:26:44,102

And that would

not be surprising to anybody,

547

00:26:45,478 --> 00:26:47,731

unless they

548

00:26:47,731 --> 00:26:49,983

are trying to force the United States

549

00:26:49,983 --> 00:26:53,445

into the place of the Kingdom of the lamb.

550

00:26:53,945 --> 00:26:54,988

Right.

551

00:26:54,988 --> 00:26:58,908

If if we read the book of Revelation

and say, Revelation is warning

552

00:26:58,908 --> 00:27:02,370

is is trying to tell us when you see

553

00:27:02,746 --> 00:27:05,498

the way power is used,

554

00:27:05,498 --> 00:27:08,501

you should recognize beast in there right.

555

00:27:08,585 --> 00:27:11,004

And when you see the way

socioeconomic forces

556

00:27:11,004 --> 00:27:14,090

are, are employed,

you should see the harlot in there right.

557

00:27:14,549 --> 00:27:17,469

And the beast is always something

that's going to be

558

00:27:17,469 --> 00:27:20,221

pulling for your allegiance and pushing,

559

00:27:20,221 --> 00:27:24,184

pulling you to collude with it

and therefore to, you know, to get power,

560

00:27:24,726 --> 00:27:29,481

you're going to have to compromise

on your witness to Jesus in in the.

561

00:27:29,522 --> 00:27:31,900

That's kind of

how the book of Revelation sees it.

562

00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:34,027

Or to kind of be

563

00:27:35,028 --> 00:27:36,363

participate in all the the

564

00:27:36,363 --> 00:27:39,574

fun things that the harlot has to offer,

you know, whether that be,

565

00:27:40,867 --> 00:27:43,870

wealth or,

566

00:27:44,496 --> 00:27:47,457

slavery in the book of Revelation to

567

00:27:48,208 --> 00:27:49,709

or, or sexual immorality,

568

00:27:49,709 --> 00:27:54,714

any number of other things you have to

you have to capitulate to the harlot

569

00:27:54,714 --> 00:27:57,717

and therefore no longer

be part of the bride.

570

00:27:57,717 --> 00:27:59,886

That's the antithesis of the harlot,

right?

571

00:27:59,886 --> 00:28:03,848

If that's the lens that you see,

John is saying this, that's the lens.

572

00:28:03,848 --> 00:28:05,642

You need to see the world right.

573

00:28:05,642 --> 00:28:09,479

And I think that that is true

even of societies

574

00:28:09,479 --> 00:28:13,024

like ours that have, yes, have had

have been impacted by Christianity.

575

00:28:13,942 --> 00:28:16,903

but if we start seeing our society

with that lens.

576

00:28:17,404 --> 00:28:21,491

Wait a minute,

I see I see beast in the United States.

577

00:28:21,491 --> 00:28:22,575

The United States is

578

00:28:24,077 --> 00:28:26,538

is part of the the old

579

00:28:26,538 --> 00:28:29,999

beastly way of doing things

with with some good. Yes.

580

00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,378

I should be much more,

581

00:28:33,378 --> 00:28:38,299

much less tempted to sort of collude

with it and much more reticent to say,

582

00:28:38,299 --> 00:28:43,054

well, in order to take back my country,

I'm going to partner with you,

583

00:28:44,431 --> 00:28:48,518

because I'm going to recognize

that that is that might be part of,

584

00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:52,731

what John would see as you taking

the mark of the beast, right?

585

00:28:53,148 --> 00:28:57,235

You saying, well,

in order to get my to have dominion

586

00:28:57,235 --> 00:29:00,530

over the kingdoms of of over the nations

or whatever or my society,

587

00:29:00,989 --> 00:29:04,451

I have to align myself

with all sorts of things that,

588

00:29:05,368 --> 00:29:07,078

that are very much counter to what?

589

00:29:07,078 --> 00:29:09,789

To, to what the true king wants.

590

00:29:09,789 --> 00:29:12,000

Right.

591

00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,209

And so it's a different way.

592

00:29:13,209 --> 00:29:16,171

Like, so who was it, was it...

593

00:29:17,714 --> 00:29:18,214

one of those

594

00:29:18,214 --> 00:29:21,426

great Russian authors

said that the line between good and evil

595

00:29:22,051 --> 00:29:24,637

goes straight

through the middle of the human heart.

596

00:29:24,637 --> 00:29:27,348

And I think that sort of the, the,

597

00:29:27,348 --> 00:29:30,351

the way that Revelation has been read in,

598

00:29:31,060 --> 00:29:33,021

modern evangelicalism has tried

599

00:29:33,021 --> 00:29:38,318

to make the line between good and evil

go like, sort of with our political party

600

00:29:38,318 --> 00:29:41,237

or candidate on the one side

and the other on the other side. Right.

601

00:29:41,237 --> 00:29:45,074

But the book of Revelation

is trying to make us say, no, you should.

602

00:29:45,074 --> 00:29:45,909

You should see

603

00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:50,288

whenever you look at the King, the,

the power structures of the world

604

00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:53,541

or the socioeconomic structures,

which is another way of having power.

605

00:29:53,541 --> 00:29:55,084

Soft power. Right?

606

00:29:55,084 --> 00:29:59,005

You're supposed to see the line of evil

going through it, right?

607

00:29:59,923 --> 00:30:04,302

even the party that I might

that I might like has beast in it.

608

00:30:07,305 --> 00:30:07,639

right.

609

00:30:07,639 --> 00:30:11,684

I think that's kind of part

of how Revelation

610

00:30:11,684 --> 00:30:14,687

is supposed to function as a lens

that that warns us,

611

00:30:15,313 --> 00:30:18,775

that tells us persevere,

overcome, don't collude.

612

00:30:19,567 --> 00:30:21,861

which doesn't necessarily mean

which doesn't mean

613

00:30:21,861 --> 00:30:23,029

don't have political opinions.

614

00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:26,032

It doesn't mean one candidate

might not be better than another.

615

00:30:26,032 --> 00:30:27,408

It doesn't mean any of those things.

616

00:30:27,408 --> 00:30:30,411

But it does mean that if we think that,

617

00:30:31,871 --> 00:30:35,291

the the power

structures of the United States,

618

00:30:35,959 --> 00:30:39,212

can be co-opted

to advance the kingdom of God

619

00:30:39,212 --> 00:30:43,007

or taking back our country

for Christian purposes.

620

00:30:44,467 --> 00:30:46,261

you're you're you're sort of trying

621

00:30:46,261 --> 00:30:49,264

to hire the beast to do the lamb's job.

622

00:30:49,305 --> 00:30:52,642

And, the beast ends up

trying to eat the lamb,

623

00:30:52,642 --> 00:30:55,228

not do the,

you know, not do the lamb's job.

624

00:30:56,688 --> 00:30:58,815

But it was somewhere in here. It's

625

00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,528

again the fixation with power I think

is the part that, that does kind of

626

00:31:03,528 --> 00:31:07,782

get me a bit because that's not obviously

the example of Jesus.

627

00:31:07,782 --> 00:31:10,243

I mean, you know, you don't really see him

628

00:31:10,243 --> 00:31:12,662

rolling around

trying to grab as much power as he can.

629

00:31:12,662 --> 00:31:13,538

It's actually the opposite.

630

00:31:13,538 --> 00:31:17,709

He, like, gives up all his power

and is ultimately crucified. How?

631

00:31:18,418 --> 00:31:21,170

I think the one of the temptations,

though,

632

00:31:21,170 --> 00:31:24,257

is people like, well, but that's what's

necessary to do the right thing, right?

633

00:31:24,465 --> 00:31:28,386

You know, we have to do this

for the greater good, I guess.

634

00:31:28,386 --> 00:31:28,803

I don't

635

00:31:28,803 --> 00:31:31,681

I don't know if you have any more

you want to add to, to that, but

636

00:31:31,681 --> 00:31:35,768

their view is really pragmatic

in their eyes of like, well, hey,

637

00:31:35,894 --> 00:31:38,771

this is what's necessary

to keep the evilness of

638

00:31:38,771 --> 00:31:40,356

of what's going to happen in the end

times.

639

00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:44,569

You know, at bay, we have to get this guy

in whatever position

640

00:31:45,028 --> 00:31:48,907

to be that that force that will stop

whatever evil is coming.

641

00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,283

Well, yes.

642

00:31:50,283 --> 00:31:52,243

And I think that's where the idea of

643

00:31:53,703 --> 00:31:55,788

Jesus, one of Jesus’ goals,

644

00:31:55,788 --> 00:31:58,791

was indeed to have dominion

over all the nations.

645

00:31:59,584 --> 00:32:00,877

He was.

646

00:32:00,877 --> 00:32:05,757

And he understood that all power was

rightfully his and would be given to him.

647

00:32:06,090 --> 00:32:08,927

It's not that power is off the table.

648

00:32:08,927 --> 00:32:09,886

Yeah, right.

649

00:32:09,886 --> 00:32:11,721

So so we don't have to say, well,

650

00:32:11,721 --> 00:32:14,682

okay, we're just going to give up power

and forget about it.

651

00:32:15,224 --> 00:32:16,601

we have to say no.

652

00:32:16,601 --> 00:32:19,228

God has already given Jesus power,

653

00:32:19,228 --> 00:32:23,441

and the and Jesus will share it

with us someday.

654

00:32:24,067 --> 00:32:27,612

But the when Jesus at the again

when Jesus was tempted by the devil,

655

00:32:28,988 --> 00:32:31,991

the temptation he tempted, he asked

656

00:32:32,575 --> 00:32:35,578

he said, I will give you

all the kingdoms of the world.

657

00:32:35,870 --> 00:32:38,581

That is what Jesus ended up with, right?

658

00:32:38,581 --> 00:32:41,584

It's not like Satan said, Jesus,

do you want to look at porn?

659

00:32:41,751 --> 00:32:42,293

Right?

660

00:32:42,293 --> 00:32:44,963

It was Jesus.

Do you want what is rightfully yours?

661

00:32:46,255 --> 00:32:49,258

It was the right goal in a sense.

662

00:32:49,550 --> 00:32:51,511

The temptation was to do it

663

00:32:51,511 --> 00:32:54,472

by colluding with the beast, right?

664

00:32:54,555 --> 00:32:56,224

Falling down and worshiping the beast.

665

00:32:56,224 --> 00:32:57,392

The wrong timetable,

666

00:32:57,392 --> 00:33:01,020

the wrong time, wrong method,

the wrong method by bowing down to him.

667

00:33:01,354 --> 00:33:02,021

Right.

668

00:33:02,021 --> 00:33:06,109

And I think that that very same thing

is what John has in mind here.

669

00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:09,445

What what we can read, John,

how we can, apply John

670

00:33:10,071 --> 00:33:13,950

in Revelation is, is that this, this sense

that, well,

671

00:33:13,950 --> 00:33:17,870

in order to have power to make society

what it should be.

672

00:33:18,413 --> 00:33:20,665

Great goal, you know,

673

00:33:20,665 --> 00:33:23,543

we may need to do a little bowing

to the beast.

674

00:33:23,543 --> 00:33:25,753

Wrong way. Right.

675

00:33:25,753 --> 00:33:28,256

And, John,

through the imagery of Revelation, we're

676

00:33:28,256 --> 00:33:31,259

constantly being reminded,

no, no, no, remember, this is beast.

677

00:33:32,010 --> 00:33:35,680

This is not just some neutral power

that you can use.

678

00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,683

It's not like the force that you can use

for, you know, good or bad.

679

00:33:38,933 --> 00:33:40,518

This is the this is the beast.

680

00:33:41,853 --> 00:33:43,521

and there's this interesting

681

00:33:43,521 --> 00:33:48,234

little weird, weird of all of Revelations,

weird imagery.

682

00:33:48,234 --> 00:33:50,153

This might be one of the weirdest.

683

00:33:50,153 --> 00:33:54,866

there's the the there's two witnesses

that stand up and prophesy,

684

00:33:55,324 --> 00:33:59,412

and then they everyone hates, hates them

because they're sort of,

685

00:34:00,747 --> 00:34:04,667

this they pray and stuff like that

in Tribulation Falls and they can dry

686

00:34:04,667 --> 00:34:08,546

up the, the, the rivers and turn things

to blood and all that kind of stuff.

687

00:34:08,838 --> 00:34:11,632

They and then they're killed, right?

688

00:34:11,632 --> 00:34:13,301

The society kills them.

689

00:34:13,301 --> 00:34:17,013

And then, a few days later,

God raises them, you know, from the dead

690

00:34:17,638 --> 00:34:20,183

most likely those

691

00:34:20,183 --> 00:34:23,978

that is a

another one of John's strange ways

692

00:34:24,812 --> 00:34:27,523

of depicting the whole, this whole time

693

00:34:27,523 --> 00:34:31,152

period of us waiting for Jesus return.

694

00:34:31,319 --> 00:34:35,990

And the witnesses are understood

to be God's people now, right.

695

00:34:36,157 --> 00:34:38,868

There's two because, in the Old Testament,

you have to have two,

696

00:34:38,868 --> 00:34:40,286

at least two witnesses.

697

00:34:40,286 --> 00:34:42,914

Right. Oh, okay. Yeah.

698

00:34:42,914 --> 00:34:46,209

But it just represents

it represents God's people corporately.

699

00:34:46,209 --> 00:34:47,877

It's it it's just a little vignette,

right?

700

00:34:47,877 --> 00:34:51,464

It doesn't it's almost like plopped in

there as a little standalone,

701

00:34:52,006 --> 00:34:53,674

episode or whatever. Right.

702

00:34:53,674 --> 00:34:55,301

That gives you a different perspective.

703

00:34:55,301 --> 00:34:56,094

I hadn’t thought of that one.

704

00:34:56,094 --> 00:34:59,097

And what they do

and this is, this is, you know,

705

00:34:59,430 --> 00:35:03,059

there is a debate on everything,

but this is kind of a, probably

706

00:35:03,059 --> 00:35:06,521

one of the most, maybe the most common

view in most scholarship on this. And,

707

00:35:08,564 --> 00:35:11,984

they they're patterned after Moses and

and Elijah, the prophets.

708

00:35:11,984 --> 00:35:13,528

Right.

This is very this kind of crazy stuff.

709

00:35:13,528 --> 00:35:17,824

But the point is, they're depicting

the way that we're supposed

710

00:35:17,824 --> 00:35:21,035

to, where that the church

is expected to be in this time.

711

00:35:21,035 --> 00:35:21,702

Right?

712

00:35:21,702 --> 00:35:25,248

Which is people

that bear witness to Jesus,

713

00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:29,418

and that,

714

00:35:29,418 --> 00:35:32,171

as we bear witness, God may be sending

715

00:35:32,171 --> 00:35:35,174

tribulation and judgment onto this world.

716

00:35:35,299 --> 00:35:36,884

Right.

717

00:35:36,884 --> 00:35:39,262

but at the same at the end,

718

00:35:39,262 --> 00:35:42,598

you know, the beast overcomes us by death.

719

00:35:42,598 --> 00:35:44,976

And there's, you know, that's

what happens in that story.

720

00:35:44,976 --> 00:35:47,979

And in other parts of Revelation,

the beast is given power to destroy them.

721

00:35:48,813 --> 00:35:51,524

And then God brings them back, right?

722

00:35:51,524 --> 00:35:54,527

Eventually his people, God's people,

will be vindicated on the last day.

723

00:35:54,861 --> 00:35:57,572

Those are the pictures

that Revelation uses

724

00:35:57,572 --> 00:36:00,575

about how Jesus kingdom advances now.

725

00:36:00,908 --> 00:36:04,287

The call in Revelation is, is not to try

726

00:36:04,495 --> 00:36:09,292

not to invest messianic hope

in one of the horns of the beast, right?

727

00:36:09,292 --> 00:36:10,710

One of the beastly figures.

728

00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:14,755

But to bear witness

to by our lives, by our words,

729

00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,801

is to bear witness to Jesus and

730

00:36:19,969 --> 00:36:22,180

yeah. To suffer. Right?

731

00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:23,931

Right. Or Paul or Paul?

732

00:36:23,931 --> 00:36:25,892

John pictures in a different way

when he talks

733

00:36:25,892 --> 00:36:28,895

about the mark's, the mark of the beast,

the mark of God, which we talked about.

734

00:36:29,187 --> 00:36:32,231

Jesus kingdom advances

by being somebody who overcomes,

735

00:36:32,523 --> 00:36:36,527

by refusing to be stamped by the beast way

of doing things on your life, right.

736

00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,656

And so that's the the consistently

737

00:36:40,656 --> 00:36:43,659

through the book of Revelation is,

738

00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:48,289

Jesus’ people are never,

739

00:36:48,414 --> 00:36:51,667

are actually very much

not supposed to assimilate into the beast.

740

00:36:52,001 --> 00:36:52,627

Right?

741

00:36:52,627 --> 00:36:55,630

They're supposed to not say, well,

742

00:36:55,713 --> 00:36:59,008

maybe if we get the right

part of the beast,

743

00:36:59,008 --> 00:37:02,136

we can get the this part of the beast

to do

744

00:37:03,012 --> 00:37:05,681

to bring about

what the lamb wants type of thing, right?

745

00:37:05,681 --> 00:37:07,058

It's no, bear witness,

746

00:37:08,309 --> 00:37:11,896

expect to suffer and and then overcome.

747

00:37:12,605 --> 00:37:15,608

So again, this is not to sell us like

748

00:37:16,234 --> 00:37:19,695

I'm not here saying

it's wrong to vote or it's right to vote.

749

00:37:20,196 --> 00:37:23,282

I'm not saying you shouldn't have leanings

politically one way or the other,

750

00:37:23,574 --> 00:37:27,119

but what I am saying

is that when this part of

751

00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:30,873

why we're supposed to read

the book of Revelation regularly, I think,

752

00:37:31,374 --> 00:37:35,920

I think is that it gets this, this vision

in our head so that when we start,

753

00:37:36,128 --> 00:37:39,131

when we start,

when our hearts start saying,

754

00:37:39,131 --> 00:37:41,217

this candidate,

755

00:37:41,217 --> 00:37:45,012

I'm going to invest all of my hopes

for our society,

756

00:37:45,638 --> 00:37:48,975

keeping our society from going down

the drain into this candidate.

757

00:37:48,975 --> 00:37:53,312

I start thinking, you know,

that sounds a little weirdly like,

758

00:37:53,604 --> 00:37:57,358

that sounds a little bit weirdly like me,

bowing toward the beast.

759

00:37:57,858 --> 00:37:59,026

Like, why?

760

00:37:59,026 --> 00:38:01,946

Who side of my on right, like, am I?

761

00:38:01,946 --> 00:38:03,864

Why do I expect that guy?

762

00:38:03,864 --> 00:38:06,575

Especially given all of his deep flaws?

763

00:38:07,827 --> 00:38:09,245

why do I expect.

764

00:38:09,245 --> 00:38:12,707

Why am I acting as though he's the one

who's going to bring about new creation,

765

00:38:13,249 --> 00:38:16,294

or he's the one who's but,

you know, and, it's

766

00:38:16,294 --> 00:38:18,045

that it's not the hey,

I think he might be the

767

00:38:18,045 --> 00:38:20,214

lesser of two evils,

and therefore I'm going to support that.

768

00:38:20,214 --> 00:38:22,675

I'm not talking about that.

769

00:38:22,675 --> 00:38:26,762

but I think it I am speaking very much

against the idolatry

770

00:38:26,762 --> 00:38:32,059

that often plagues the United States,

specifically that we think that,

771

00:38:33,019 --> 00:38:36,272

we have some special status

as God's country or something,

772

00:38:36,605 --> 00:38:40,276

or that a certain political party,

in our circles it’s the Republican Party

773

00:38:40,693 --> 00:38:43,696

most predominantly that gets this has,

774

00:38:44,488 --> 00:38:47,575

is is

God's agent for doing for doing things

775

00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:50,703

when instead too often

I think what we've seen

776

00:38:51,954 --> 00:38:54,457

is, I like to say that any time

777

00:38:54,457 --> 00:38:57,460

we invest messianic hope

778

00:38:58,085 --> 00:39:01,088

into someone other than the Messiah,

779

00:39:01,172 --> 00:39:04,925

that person becomes for us an Antichrist,

an anti-Messiah.

780

00:39:04,967 --> 00:39:07,345

That's all an Antichrist really is.

781

00:39:07,345 --> 00:39:10,973

It's somebody who

who is expected to do what the Messiah

782

00:39:12,058 --> 00:39:12,475

will do,

783

00:39:12,475 --> 00:39:15,603

which is to rule right, to rule the world

and to fix everything.

784

00:39:16,395 --> 00:39:21,359

And Revelation doesn't call us

to look for one specific final Antichrist

785

00:39:21,359 --> 00:39:26,489

only Revelation calls us

to see the way that our hearts can turn

786

00:39:26,947 --> 00:39:29,950

any ruler into our own Antichrist.

787

00:39:31,827 --> 00:39:34,038

And the way that that if we think you know

788

00:39:34,038 --> 00:39:38,501

Jesus is our Savior,

but a certain political candidate is our,

789

00:39:39,543 --> 00:39:42,505

we basically turn him into a sub Savior,

which happens with Trump

790

00:39:42,505 --> 00:39:44,256

these days, right.

791

00:39:44,256 --> 00:39:47,259

and I'm not I'm only talking about him

because that's the predominant

792

00:39:47,343 --> 00:39:48,177

figure in our circles.

793

00:39:48,177 --> 00:39:51,097

I mean, we can say the same thing

about other people.

794

00:39:51,097 --> 00:39:53,432

we might be turning for us.

795

00:39:53,432 --> 00:39:54,517

I'm not saying he's the final.

796

00:39:54,517 --> 00:39:57,353

I'm not saying

any one person is the final antichrist,

797

00:39:57,353 --> 00:40:00,898

but we may be turning them

into our own Antichrist,

798

00:40:01,857 --> 00:40:05,945

because we're putting too much messianic

hope on someone who should.

799

00:40:06,153 --> 00:40:08,322

He's not. Yeah, exactly.

800

00:40:08,322 --> 00:40:09,615

So what do we do?

801

00:40:09,615 --> 00:40:12,952

Like, how do we. Because this is so easy

802

00:40:14,328 --> 00:40:16,205

to to go down that street, right?

803

00:40:16,205 --> 00:40:20,709

I mean, like the fixation with power

is just right there, like earthly powers.

804

00:40:20,709 --> 00:40:23,921

I'm saying like, because it's just,

oh, if we could just, you know,

805

00:40:23,921 --> 00:40:27,591

get this person and or get that thing,

we could we could make all the...

806

00:40:27,633 --> 00:40:30,052

You know, there's this,

807

00:40:30,052 --> 00:40:32,513

it's it's so in us as humans.

808

00:40:32,513 --> 00:40:32,763

I mean,

809

00:40:32,763 --> 00:40:34,181

maybe that's just part of our fallen

nature,

810

00:40:34,181 --> 00:40:37,184

that sense of wanting to dominate

something, I don't know,

811

00:40:38,269 --> 00:40:39,228

what do we do?

812

00:40:39,228 --> 00:40:41,689

What would you encourage our listeners

to do?

813

00:40:41,689 --> 00:40:44,108

Read the book of Revelation,

814

00:40:44,108 --> 00:40:46,193

though. Seriously, though, like,

look at it.

815

00:40:46,193 --> 00:40:47,486

You know, look at the call.

816

00:40:47,486 --> 00:40:51,157

Just have the images in our mind

when our heart starts to say

817

00:40:52,741 --> 00:40:55,744

he's going to fix everything

or she's going to fix everything,

818

00:40:56,245 --> 00:40:59,665

you know, if if this doesn't happen,

all of my hopes are my

819

00:40:59,790 --> 00:41:03,169

I'm almost have eschatological hope

in this in this particular figure.

820

00:41:03,836 --> 00:41:04,962

Then I should start feeling,

821

00:41:06,297 --> 00:41:09,091

this starts that's not the Messiah.

822

00:41:09,091 --> 00:41:11,093

I know, because Jesus is the Messiah.

823

00:41:11,093 --> 00:41:14,096

And if I'm starting to bow to that,

to this individual

824

00:41:14,305 --> 00:41:18,058

or invest the new heavens

that I'm basically hoping the new heavens

825

00:41:18,058 --> 00:41:21,353

and the earth comes through this person,

just in a small way, I get it.

826

00:41:22,646 --> 00:41:24,523

you know, my heart's in the wrong place.

827

00:41:24,523 --> 00:41:28,360

I remember that this person,

they may be a good person.

828

00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:29,570

They may not be.

829

00:41:29,570 --> 00:41:32,239

But there's ways

in which those power structures

830

00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,868

and the temptations I'm tempted to will

participate in the power of the beast.

831

00:41:36,285 --> 00:41:37,244

Right.

832

00:41:37,244 --> 00:41:37,661

Yeah.

833

00:41:37,661 --> 00:41:38,871

It's really that I think so again,

it's not don't have political opinions.

834

00:41:38,871 --> 00:41:41,290

It's really that I think so again,

it's not don't have political opinions.

835

00:41:41,916 --> 00:41:44,543

It's not don't have a leaning

one way or the other.

836

00:41:44,543 --> 00:41:46,795

It's not don't think it doesn't

matter. The elections do matter.

837

00:41:47,838 --> 00:41:50,132

but it is

838

00:41:50,132 --> 00:41:54,470

remember that we're waiting for

Jesus the King to fix everything.

839

00:41:54,762 --> 00:41:56,096

Really.

840

00:41:56,096 --> 00:41:59,725

And that until then, any shortcuts

that we try

841

00:42:00,142 --> 00:42:03,437

is actually in Revelation terms pictures.

842

00:42:04,104 --> 00:42:06,232

it may be a colluding with the beast.

843

00:42:06,232 --> 00:42:10,903

And we see that play out in real life,

the way that Christians who put this kind

844

00:42:10,903 --> 00:42:14,949

of eschatological hope in these figures

have to compromise, right?

845

00:42:14,949 --> 00:42:17,993

You have to downplay

a certain candidate's sins,

846

00:42:17,993 --> 00:42:21,664

or you have to downplay a certain way,

the way that a certain

847

00:42:21,830 --> 00:42:24,667

political platform,

848

00:42:24,667 --> 00:42:27,044

does not fully represent,

849

00:42:27,044 --> 00:42:30,047

you know, godly values, right?

850

00:42:30,130 --> 00:42:32,758

If if you're just saying, hey, I think

this candidate's better than the other,

851

00:42:32,758 --> 00:42:34,802

you can still say,

but I think that position is terrible.

852

00:42:34,802 --> 00:42:36,262

I think that position is terrible.

853

00:42:36,262 --> 00:42:39,807

But some people cross this line

where their heart, it's hardly

854

00:42:39,807 --> 00:42:40,558

their hardly able

855

00:42:40,558 --> 00:42:43,561

to say negative things about their party

or their candidate anymore.

856

00:42:43,686 --> 00:42:45,771

Yeah,

that's the one that really gets me to,

857

00:42:45,771 --> 00:42:49,441

because at that point you're

also crossing a line of honesty you are

858

00:42:49,525 --> 00:42:51,777

but but that but see,

I think that's quintessential

859

00:42:51,777 --> 00:42:54,154

what it means to start

colluding with the beast.

860

00:42:54,154 --> 00:42:54,947

Right.

861

00:42:54,947 --> 00:42:56,240

You're losing your witness.

862

00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:59,243

Revelations all about Christians

are supposed to bear witness to Jesus,

863

00:42:59,785 --> 00:43:05,082

and you are unable to do that fully

because you're trying to participate,

864

00:43:07,126 --> 00:43:08,210

in a, in a

865

00:43:08,210 --> 00:43:12,047

anti messianic way,

in, in that, in that power structure.

866

00:43:12,047 --> 00:43:12,423

you're.

867

00:43:12,423 --> 00:43:16,093

Yeah, you're

you're participating in the wrong system.

868

00:43:16,302 --> 00:43:19,096

I don't know if that's the right word,

but it's like you have Jesus

869

00:43:19,096 --> 00:43:22,391

and His kingdom and clearly

what we are called to be witnesses.

870

00:43:22,725 --> 00:43:25,519

And then you have some people over here

trying to do whatever.

871

00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:27,771

And and we're

getting all sucked into that.

872

00:43:27,771 --> 00:43:30,733

He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're

losing your focus on the real thing.

873

00:43:30,733 --> 00:43:34,111

And I think once you start, once you start

not being able to bear witness anymore,

874

00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:36,530

then you've gotten

then you've probably gotten

875

00:43:36,530 --> 00:43:39,533

snatched by the

the jaws of the beast, right.

876

00:43:40,326 --> 00:43:43,329

so that's just,

I don't know, these are some more

877

00:43:43,329 --> 00:43:46,332

these this isn't, like, in-depth

in a specific passage or Revelation,

878

00:43:46,332 --> 00:43:48,042

but I think it's a really important,

879

00:43:48,042 --> 00:43:51,045

like way that Revelation

is supposed to speak to us.

880

00:43:51,045 --> 00:43:52,212

Right? Yeah.

881

00:43:52,212 --> 00:43:53,547

But it's interesting,

882

00:43:53,547 --> 00:43:57,259

but yet it's been used to flip

the other way around as a cop out.

883

00:43:57,426 --> 00:43:57,885

Yeah.

884

00:43:57,885 --> 00:44:01,263

To say, actually, we should be getting

involved in these things.

885

00:44:01,513 --> 00:44:04,933

And so it's interesting to have you dig

into this a bit more and say, whoa, whoa,

886

00:44:05,184 --> 00:44:07,186

you know,

let's really look at the bigger picture.

887

00:44:07,186 --> 00:44:10,397

What's what's going on here

with this messianic

888

00:44:10,397 --> 00:44:13,567

fervor almost,

that can get that's so easy to do.

889

00:44:13,567 --> 00:44:16,570

You know, John's first reader Revelations

first readers were supposed

890

00:44:16,570 --> 00:44:21,367

to look at their own society, Rome,

and recognize it as the beast.

891

00:44:21,367 --> 00:44:23,786

Right, in a sense. And then,

892

00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:27,373

but but we are still supposed

893

00:44:27,373 --> 00:44:31,752

to see power structures

as participating in that same.

894

00:44:32,419 --> 00:44:35,381

There's good to participate

because rulership is a good thing as well.

895

00:44:35,381 --> 00:44:39,802

Kingship is a good thing,

but it's always tainted by the beast.

896

00:44:40,260 --> 00:44:43,389

And so I think the call of Revelation

applies to us.

897

00:44:43,389 --> 00:44:47,559

Don't turn Revelation into something

where we have, well, the

898

00:44:48,227 --> 00:44:51,772

the Democrats or the Russians

or the whoever they are, the beast.

899

00:44:52,189 --> 00:44:54,108

And that's

that's not what Revelation says.

900

00:44:54,108 --> 00:44:57,236

Revelation says bear witness to Jesus.

901

00:44:57,695 --> 00:45:02,116

And remember that

your society and the huge and the

902

00:45:02,324 --> 00:45:05,744

the empire that your society is

and our societies is a, the United States

903

00:45:05,744 --> 00:45:10,040

is a massive socioeconomic, military,

political empire,

904

00:45:11,792 --> 00:45:14,211

is something that is part of

905

00:45:14,211 --> 00:45:17,798

or at the very least massively

tainted with the power of the beast.

906

00:45:18,382 --> 00:45:19,258

Right?

907

00:45:19,258 --> 00:45:20,509

It's not those out there.

908

00:45:20,509 --> 00:45:22,511

It's not just the the other party.

909

00:45:23,595 --> 00:45:26,682

It's it's

where I live and the temptations I have.

910

00:45:26,682 --> 00:45:29,685

And the beast is not the lamb, right?

911

00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:32,187

Yeah. That's wow.

912

00:45:32,187 --> 00:45:33,731

Is this is a lot to think about.

913

00:45:33,731 --> 00:45:38,986

And hopefully this encourages listeners

to remember our role as bearing witness

914

00:45:39,403 --> 00:45:43,824

you know, and keeping our messianic hopes

pointed towards the actual messiah.

915

00:45:43,866 --> 00:45:44,450

You know.

916

00:45:44,450 --> 00:45:45,492

But it's just so.

917

00:45:45,492 --> 00:45:47,202

And when you know,

even when saying something

918

00:45:47,202 --> 00:45:48,579

like I was like, well, yeah,

of course, obviously.

919

00:45:48,579 --> 00:45:52,291

No, I mean, Jesus is the Messiah,

but like in day to day life, it's,

920

00:45:52,708 --> 00:45:54,084

you can lose that so fast, right?

921

00:45:54,084 --> 00:45:57,588

You know, that's why I at the beginning,

I started talking about how Jesus,

922

00:45:58,088 --> 00:46:00,883

when we say he's the king,

I mean literally

923

00:46:00,883 --> 00:46:04,011

will be, will reign like it's

not just an ethereal thing.

924

00:46:04,011 --> 00:46:05,012

Right.

925

00:46:05,012 --> 00:46:07,473

and that helps me to remember. Oh, oops.

926

00:46:08,432 --> 00:46:11,477

Messiah isn't just this abstract

theological term.

927

00:46:11,894 --> 00:46:15,481

It's the Messiah is the one,

the King that I expect

928

00:46:15,481 --> 00:46:17,900

to solve all the world's problems.

That's what.

929

00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:20,903

That's what the messianic king

is supposed to do, right?

930

00:46:20,986 --> 00:46:25,115

And if I start having that expectation

on anyone other than Jesus,

931

00:46:26,408 --> 00:46:28,535

I'm following an Antichrist.

932

00:46:28,535 --> 00:46:30,370

They are, at least to me, an Antichrist,

right?

933

00:46:30,370 --> 00:46:32,122

Yeah.

934

00:46:32,122 --> 00:46:32,915

that's so true.

935

00:46:32,915 --> 00:46:33,749

And that is,

936

00:46:33,749 --> 00:46:35,918

that is something

we need to constantly be reminded of

937

00:46:35,918 --> 00:46:37,211

because, you know, we're humans

938

00:46:37,211 --> 00:46:40,839

and we forget stuff and we're like, oh,

but you can get all wound up into this...

939

00:46:40,923 --> 00:46:44,551

we're waiting a long time and so

and so we kind of, you know,

940

00:46:44,635 --> 00:46:48,514

our lampstands our, the oil

kind of goes out and we just fall asleep.

941

00:46:48,514 --> 00:46:49,389

Right.

942

00:46:49,389 --> 00:46:52,392

And that's the point of Revelation

is to wake us up Wow. Wow.

943

00:46:52,392 --> 00:46:53,352

That's so powerful.

944

00:46:53,352 --> 00:46:55,479

Well hopefully

this is encouragement to everybody.

945

00:46:55,479 --> 00:46:59,024

Go go read Revelation again

you know and be a witness

946

00:46:59,274 --> 00:47:04,446

for witness for the actual messiah

and not try to put that on a mere human,

947

00:47:04,613 --> 00:47:08,784

you know, or an earthly power system that

at the end of the day, it's just not it.

948

00:47:08,784 --> 00:47:10,118

It's not the real thing. Yeah. Wow.

949

00:47:10,118 --> 00:47:12,246

Thanks so much for sharing

today, Paul. I really appreciate it.

950

00:47:14,122 --> 00:47:16,208

Thanks for listening to this episode

951

00:47:16,208 --> 00:47:19,211

on Revelation and Politics

with Paul Lamicela.

952

00:47:19,253 --> 00:47:20,462

If you enjoyed this conversation,

953

00:47:20,462 --> 00:47:22,840

go check out our earlier episode

we did with him on

954

00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,343

how to read the Book of Revelation

that's linked in the description below.

955

00:47:26,677 --> 00:47:29,429

You can find all our content,

including others with Paul,

956

00:47:29,429 --> 00:47:32,474

over on our website

at anabaptistperspectives.org.

957

00:47:32,850 --> 00:47:35,602

Thanks again for listening

and we'll see you in the next episode.