1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,018 Welcome to the E-Commerce Podcast with me, your host Matt Edmundson Now this is a show all about delivering E-Commerce, well helping you deliver E-Commerce, wow. 2 00:00:10,018 --> 00:00:18,916 And to help us do just that today, I am chatting with Thomas Lalas about retention marketing of all things. 3 00:00:18,916 --> 00:00:19,836 We're gonna get into that. 4 00:00:19,836 --> 00:00:22,789 Yes, we are gonna pick his expert brains. 5 00:00:22,789 --> 00:00:29,500 But before we do, let me invite you to stop on by the website, ecommercepodcast.net, sign up for the newsletter. 6 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:36,305 And all the show notes and links go to your website, no, they don't, go to your inbox automatically for free. 7 00:00:36,305 --> 00:00:40,758 And you can get that just by signing up, which I appreciate on its own is just really boring, right? 8 00:00:40,758 --> 00:00:43,220 It's the standard podcast newsletter, isn't it? 9 00:00:43,220 --> 00:00:45,832 Well, let me tell you, we are jazzing it up. 10 00:00:45,832 --> 00:00:49,004 There's going to be some extra content, some extra stuff in there. 11 00:00:49,004 --> 00:00:52,276 We're trying to make that newsletter a lot more, you know. 12 00:00:52,629 --> 00:00:57,120 A lot less lazy is probably the better way to put it and be a bit more creative with it. 13 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:02,611 So do make sure you sign up for that at ecommercepodcast.net. 14 00:01:02,611 --> 00:01:09,732 Now let's talk about Thomas, a former military policeman, which if you're like me, makes me instantly think of Jack Reacher. 15 00:01:09,792 --> 00:01:18,774 He's turned subscription whisperer, which I think is a great title and helps million dollar e-commerce brands keep their customers coming back for more. 16 00:01:18,774 --> 00:01:21,524 When he is not slashing churn rates, 17 00:01:21,524 --> 00:01:25,399 and maximizing retention for eight to nine figure brands. 18 00:01:25,399 --> 00:01:31,207 This ex academic and startup founder is tackling his most challenging role yet. 19 00:01:31,207 --> 00:01:33,069 Being a dad. 20 00:01:33,170 --> 00:01:34,932 yes, Thomas, welcome to the show, man. 21 00:01:34,932 --> 00:01:35,533 Great to have you. 22 00:01:35,533 --> 00:01:36,574 How are we doing? 23 00:01:37,225 --> 00:01:38,177 Pleasure being here. 24 00:01:38,177 --> 00:01:39,482 I'm really excited. 25 00:01:39,482 --> 00:01:41,287 mean, you are such an amazing host. 26 00:01:41,287 --> 00:01:42,702 I can't wait for this conversation. 27 00:01:42,702 --> 00:01:44,111 So let's get going. 28 00:01:44,111 --> 00:01:45,632 gets you everywhere on this show Thomas. 29 00:01:45,632 --> 00:02:00,611 I'm not gonna lie That straight out of the I'm not being rude but it's it's in the how to be a great podcast guest book 101 Just say really nice things about the host right at the 30 00:02:00,611 --> 00:02:02,181 start and they'll like you 31 00:02:02,821 --> 00:02:07,018 or just be a great host and people will just naturally give you compliments. 32 00:02:07,647 --> 00:02:09,108 And again, well done. 33 00:02:09,108 --> 00:02:11,130 It's working. 34 00:02:11,391 --> 00:02:15,395 Let's just change the topic of this show and call it feeding Matt's ego. 35 00:02:15,395 --> 00:02:18,998 That's what we should. 36 00:02:19,930 --> 00:02:21,521 man, love it, love it, love it. 37 00:02:21,521 --> 00:02:22,903 It's great to to you. 38 00:02:22,903 --> 00:02:26,497 Where about, I mean, I'm in the UK, it's seven o'clock in the evening here. 39 00:02:26,497 --> 00:02:28,429 I've got a belly full of delicious food. 40 00:02:28,429 --> 00:02:30,120 Whereabouts in the world are you? 41 00:02:30,409 --> 00:02:31,469 Right now I'm in Greece. 42 00:02:31,469 --> 00:02:35,029 I used to be in the UK, so it's nine o'clock my time. 43 00:02:35,029 --> 00:02:42,149 And after that, baby is going to call for, you know, to go to bed and I'll be there as a good daddy. 44 00:02:42,689 --> 00:02:49,769 yeah, that's the last thing of the day, you know, interesting conversation with a fellow Liverpoolian. 45 00:02:49,769 --> 00:02:50,649 Hi. 46 00:02:51,169 --> 00:02:55,269 Yes, I'm a Liverpool fan and I used to live in Manchester, but I supported Liverpool. 47 00:02:55,269 --> 00:02:56,749 I didn't tell anyone. 48 00:02:56,770 --> 00:03:02,490 I was in Manchester last night and I won't mention the Liverpool game because we don't want to talk about it. 49 00:03:02,490 --> 00:03:06,890 But I was in Manchester last night with my long-standing friend. 50 00:03:06,890 --> 00:03:10,310 We've been friends for 30 years and he happened to be visiting Manchester. 51 00:03:10,970 --> 00:03:15,790 So Liverpool is not that far if you don't know British geography from Manchester, it's like 40 minutes on the train. 52 00:03:15,810 --> 00:03:18,030 So I caught the train into Manchester. 53 00:03:18,450 --> 00:03:20,570 He and I had some food, just catching up. 54 00:03:20,570 --> 00:03:21,710 It really great. 55 00:03:21,710 --> 00:03:24,110 And we found this pub called 56 00:03:24,770 --> 00:03:25,370 What was it called? 57 00:03:25,370 --> 00:03:29,270 Something like the stinky cow or the stinky pig or something like that, or the craft. 58 00:03:29,270 --> 00:03:29,610 I don't know. 59 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:31,470 It something to do with pigs, I think. 60 00:03:31,890 --> 00:03:35,290 And it was great because it had these booths and it was like a sports pub. 61 00:03:35,290 --> 00:03:38,510 And in each booth that would seat six people at the end of it was a TV. 62 00:03:38,510 --> 00:03:39,530 So you got your own TV. 63 00:03:39,530 --> 00:03:42,690 So you didn't have that thing where people couldn't see the TV. 64 00:03:42,690 --> 00:03:47,850 So we sat and we had a, we had a beer and we watched the game and we left, so disappointed. 65 00:03:47,850 --> 00:03:53,330 Uh, but yes, it's just, was fascinating watching a Liverpool game in Manchester. 66 00:03:53,330 --> 00:03:54,670 The first time I'd done that. 67 00:03:54,670 --> 00:04:08,832 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and they actually showed the game which was also quite impressive so You know these these things also always awesome So tell us how did you get it? 68 00:04:08,832 --> 00:04:17,857 Forgive me if you're watching the video ladies gentlemen I'm I've got my cup of tea in my hand which I'm drinking my butter mint tea How did you get into? 69 00:04:17,857 --> 00:04:18,818 Retention marketing. 70 00:04:18,818 --> 00:04:20,168 What was the story there? 71 00:04:21,673 --> 00:04:23,674 It's always because of need. 72 00:04:23,674 --> 00:04:33,721 Usually people share their origin story and it goes something along like, I have this problem and I want to solve it, so now I'm solving it for other people. 73 00:04:33,721 --> 00:04:44,828 For me, it's more like a story of pain where I'm an ex-startup founder, among others, and I've done the academic circle, lecturing, and I'm an ex-military. 74 00:04:44,828 --> 00:04:47,549 But when I was in the startup world, 75 00:04:47,661 --> 00:04:53,904 I realized that we were growing, but acquisition was what was driving that growth, but not retention. 76 00:04:53,904 --> 00:05:00,247 And eventually the startup collapsed and I realized that we should have maintained the customers that we got. 77 00:05:00,247 --> 00:05:10,522 And because of that, when I transitioned from being the offer owner, the startup owner, and become a service provider, I realized that this is a great place to get started. 78 00:05:10,522 --> 00:05:15,324 Email, SMS, retention, subscriptions, et cetera. 79 00:05:15,324 --> 00:05:17,435 Something I was already familiar with. 80 00:05:17,557 --> 00:05:20,488 I've made a ton of mistakes on. 81 00:05:20,488 --> 00:05:28,836 I tried to fix it and eventually in the last seven years in the Ecom world, I've kind of powered through the ranks of the retention industry. 82 00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:34,860 and some people consider me, you know, they call me a wizard, an artist or like the best. 83 00:05:35,061 --> 00:05:40,505 So I'll take anything they, they share me with, but I feel pretty comfortable in this world. 84 00:05:40,505 --> 00:05:47,431 And I love digging into data and discovering patterns and innovating, connecting different services and different 85 00:05:47,431 --> 00:05:52,479 solutions in unexpected ways in order to get an edge over the competition. 86 00:05:53,538 --> 00:05:54,498 That's really good. 87 00:05:54,498 --> 00:06:03,058 I remember, it would have been 2012, 2013, somewhere in there. 88 00:06:03,058 --> 00:06:09,918 So a little while ago, we were running an econ business that sold beauty products at the time, right? 89 00:06:10,698 --> 00:06:17,858 And a friend of mine drew this sort of little triangle on a piece of paper. 90 00:06:18,498 --> 00:06:20,898 And in one corner, he put price. 91 00:06:20,898 --> 00:06:23,418 In another corner, he put quality. 92 00:06:24,582 --> 00:06:28,315 And in the other corner, he put service, right? 93 00:06:28,315 --> 00:06:30,566 So you got price quality and service. 94 00:06:30,847 --> 00:06:34,149 And he said to me, Matt, you can only have two. 95 00:06:34,149 --> 00:06:36,020 You can't have all three. 96 00:06:36,020 --> 00:06:48,558 In other words, you can't have a company that is really driving down, you know, give him really good prices, low prices to a quality product and deliver great customer service. 97 00:06:48,859 --> 00:06:51,480 But you know, the math don't work. 98 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:52,841 And so 99 00:06:52,962 --> 00:06:58,762 When we were doing the beauty company at the time, we were a quality product at a low price. 100 00:06:58,762 --> 00:07:01,001 So our customer service was not great. 101 00:07:01,001 --> 00:07:03,882 Um, and so you had to go and get a lot of new customers, right? 102 00:07:03,882 --> 00:07:05,962 New customer acquisition was a big deal. 103 00:07:06,622 --> 00:07:17,262 Um, and I remember 20, 23rd, uh, 2012, I deliberately, after looking at that little triangle, Thomas, I, I said, no, we need to shift. 104 00:07:17,262 --> 00:07:21,914 We need to move from a sort of a low price, high quality product model to a. 105 00:07:22,172 --> 00:07:32,727 a quality product, still keep the quality product, but deliver quality service, which means our prices had to go up to be able to pay for the, you know, the increase in 106 00:07:32,727 --> 00:07:34,788 customer service that we were about to do. 107 00:07:35,228 --> 00:07:37,189 So you know what, we did this. 108 00:07:38,189 --> 00:07:44,552 And I wish I could sit here and say that the day that I did that, my business boomed, because it didn't at all. 109 00:07:44,753 --> 00:07:47,874 Our sales fell for the first few months. 110 00:07:47,938 --> 00:07:56,578 Where I noticed it was the following year was we grew by over 20 % and we grew so quickly because we started to get a lot of returning customers. 111 00:07:56,578 --> 00:08:04,698 And it took a little while for the returning customers to get used to the, or for customers to get used to this higher quality of customer service that we were trying to 112 00:08:04,698 --> 00:08:07,038 give and experience and so on and so forth. 113 00:08:07,038 --> 00:08:09,258 And then we got the returning customers back. 114 00:08:09,258 --> 00:08:13,306 So I am a big, big fan of... 115 00:08:13,376 --> 00:08:18,191 this idea of retention marketing in terms of, I know new customer acquisition is important. 116 00:08:18,191 --> 00:08:24,847 It's not the topic of today's podcast, but I'm a massive fan of retention marketing. 117 00:08:24,847 --> 00:08:30,462 I'm a massive fan of getting customers coming back time and time again to buy, because it really helped us out, you know. 118 00:08:31,035 --> 00:08:31,786 Absolutely. 119 00:08:31,786 --> 00:08:41,858 And something that I hear over and over again from brand operators is that they want somebody to fix their retention leaky bucket. 120 00:08:41,858 --> 00:08:42,714 Yeah. 121 00:08:42,921 --> 00:08:46,301 That's how they call it, know, leaky retention, leaky bucket. 122 00:08:46,521 --> 00:08:53,701 And the point is that you spend all this money, all this effort to acquire a customer. 123 00:08:54,101 --> 00:09:01,481 So you have a CAC of, you know, I don't know, 80, 90, $150, depending on what you're selling. 124 00:09:01,601 --> 00:09:08,887 And in order for most businesses to make their money back and break even, they need to have each customer to buy multiple times. 125 00:09:08,887 --> 00:09:09,435 Yeah. 126 00:09:09,435 --> 00:09:17,769 So that's why subscription is very important and retention is very important because it unlocks the, the true LTV of the brand. 127 00:09:18,149 --> 00:09:18,529 Right. 128 00:09:18,529 --> 00:09:26,313 And, and when the competition is so fierce, you need to be able to afford higher CAC to get customers that other brands can't afford to pay. 129 00:09:26,313 --> 00:09:29,394 So that's why it's very important to focus on retention. 130 00:09:29,454 --> 00:09:38,339 and I'm, and I'm seeing not, not many brands really pay attention to what's happening, post customer acquisition. 131 00:09:38,339 --> 00:09:39,291 They feel that. 132 00:09:39,291 --> 00:09:46,011 Their job is done once they get the customer because you know what with media buying the feedback is instant. 133 00:09:46,011 --> 00:09:46,731 It's daily. 134 00:09:46,731 --> 00:09:47,791 It's momentary. 135 00:09:47,791 --> 00:09:54,351 You you know exactly how they had performed but with retention you have to wait for a month to see if the person is going to buy again. 136 00:09:54,351 --> 00:09:58,171 So it's going to you don't have real time retention. 137 00:09:58,311 --> 00:10:06,891 You need to wait for you know 28 30 plus days and that is a low really slow feedback loop. 138 00:10:07,271 --> 00:10:09,355 So that's why I would like 139 00:10:09,355 --> 00:10:18,938 for brands to focus on retention and think of the first two weeks post-purchase as a part of the product, not as an afterthought. 140 00:10:18,938 --> 00:10:30,941 It needs to complement the product, the experience, the ads, the website, and to educate the first-time buyer so they can actually stop having objections, regrets. 141 00:10:32,221 --> 00:10:37,131 to be educated about the product, how it works, and to make it a part of the lifestyle. 142 00:10:37,131 --> 00:10:39,545 yeah, retention is not an afterthought. 143 00:10:39,545 --> 00:10:41,898 It should be a part of the product itself. 144 00:10:42,178 --> 00:10:42,908 Well, absolutely. 145 00:10:42,908 --> 00:10:46,130 And I think it should be a big part of your marketing spend as well. 146 00:10:46,130 --> 00:10:50,723 I don't think it's just something that you go, we'll just send emails and it's fine. 147 00:10:50,803 --> 00:11:00,729 I think you have to actually allocate budget because you know, the leaky bucket analogy, there's a great phrase which I've used a lot recently is you don't fix a leak in bucket by 148 00:11:00,729 --> 00:11:02,930 adding more water, right? 149 00:11:02,950 --> 00:11:05,421 And you just don't. 150 00:11:05,421 --> 00:11:08,163 And so it never sort of fixes it. 151 00:11:08,163 --> 00:11:10,644 And I guess the other... 152 00:11:11,298 --> 00:11:15,545 true ism about e-commerce is those with the deepest pockets win the most customers, right? 153 00:11:15,545 --> 00:11:24,349 So you, if you can, if you've got great customer retention, it means you can go higher on the cat, which means your new customer acquisition, the whole engine gets fed. 154 00:11:24,349 --> 00:11:28,922 Yeah, you can reinvest the money back into growth if that's your goal. 155 00:11:28,928 --> 00:11:29,828 Yeah, absolutely. 156 00:11:29,828 --> 00:11:30,559 Absolutely. 157 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,242 But you're right about retention marketing. 158 00:11:34,242 --> 00:11:38,586 But what you do retention wise, it's not like I can do it now and A B test it today. 159 00:11:38,586 --> 00:11:46,312 You have to, depending on your product and your product's lifecycle, you've got to play a bit more of a long game, haven't you? 160 00:11:46,553 --> 00:11:49,755 So what have you, let's get into some tactics. 161 00:11:49,755 --> 00:11:52,197 Because I think, I mean, we can all agree with the principle. 162 00:11:52,197 --> 00:11:58,466 And if you can't agree that retention market is important after the conversation we've just had, I'm not sure how much. 163 00:11:58,466 --> 00:12:01,566 how much more this podcast is gonna help you today. 164 00:12:01,626 --> 00:12:08,566 But it's one of those things where I think the majority of people go, yes, it's good. 165 00:12:08,566 --> 00:12:11,826 I get the leaking bucket analogy and I need to stop the leak. 166 00:12:12,246 --> 00:12:14,346 I appreciate that. 167 00:12:15,286 --> 00:12:24,366 What are some of the things that we should be thinking about, Thomas, here in 2025 that maybe we're not? 168 00:12:24,366 --> 00:12:26,606 Are we still missing? 169 00:12:26,688 --> 00:12:31,591 the fundamentals or are other things that we should be looking at because we've got those down. 170 00:12:31,945 --> 00:12:38,553 When it comes to retention, yes, we are absolutely missing the plot on the fundamentals. 171 00:12:38,774 --> 00:12:43,300 It is a disaster, more often than not. 172 00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:48,286 It's quite easy to go and check on Shopify what your retention looks like. 173 00:12:51,249 --> 00:12:52,580 now we have two different categories. 174 00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:58,993 have brands that have on one time purchases and subscriptions and brands that go subscription only. 175 00:12:58,993 --> 00:13:01,154 For me, I specialize in subscription only. 176 00:13:01,154 --> 00:13:11,889 And I think that's the smartest thing to do to create a powerful subscription offer and to prove to your customers that they need your product again and again, and remove any, any 177 00:13:11,889 --> 00:13:13,480 objections from their head. 178 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:20,823 And the goal would be for them not to cancel while when you have one time products, the goal is always to sell. 179 00:13:20,835 --> 00:13:27,481 as fast as possible and there are so many opportunities for you to pitch again in a different way that makes sense. 180 00:13:27,481 --> 00:13:30,022 There's not enough time to educate. 181 00:13:30,083 --> 00:13:33,546 You need to think about the next order which you have to drive. 182 00:13:33,546 --> 00:13:37,629 So that's why a lot of subscription first models. 183 00:13:37,629 --> 00:13:39,710 But it all starts with the offer. 184 00:13:40,091 --> 00:13:50,719 A bad product, a bad offer with bad economics cannot be fixed with a retention system because it's just the math is broken. 185 00:13:51,180 --> 00:14:02,130 It needs to be a product that makes sense and it's something that unlocks acquisition, something that people really want, but also something that people will keep wanting. 186 00:14:02,571 --> 00:14:07,835 And usually there is a starter kit, there is a great offer, the upcoming offers also matter. 187 00:14:07,916 --> 00:14:09,597 Because if let's say, 188 00:14:09,615 --> 00:14:19,720 there is an offer that includes a starter kit with a main product, a couple of freebies, free stuff, and then the second order is just the product by itself and sometimes it's 189 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,043 even more expensive than the first purchase. 190 00:14:23,175 --> 00:14:34,268 By contrast, you're not going to like the second order, or you might be tempted to get all the freebies that were offered to you upfront and then cancel right away because you've 191 00:14:34,268 --> 00:14:35,620 just gained the system. 192 00:14:35,620 --> 00:14:39,744 But this is a customer where you've lost money as a brand. 193 00:14:40,349 --> 00:14:42,910 This makes sense for you to acquire this customer in the first place. 194 00:14:42,910 --> 00:14:48,811 You want the customers that will keep buying, break at least, break even, and then keep buying. 195 00:14:49,772 --> 00:14:50,772 This is the profit is. 196 00:14:50,772 --> 00:14:57,214 So the offer is the number one thing that brands need to really start restructuring. 197 00:14:57,214 --> 00:15:00,435 I see a lot of plain offers done and all subscription optimized. 198 00:15:01,295 --> 00:15:08,113 Just slapping the button of subscribe and save is not a subscription offer. 199 00:15:08,113 --> 00:15:09,975 This is the laziest thing you can do. 200 00:15:09,975 --> 00:15:18,378 And honestly, if you try to acquire customers purely on lower prices, you're going to be outspent by the competition. 201 00:15:18,378 --> 00:15:20,399 They're going to have a better offer, better retention. 202 00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:21,487 They're going to outspend you. 203 00:15:21,487 --> 00:15:22,468 You're done. 204 00:15:23,349 --> 00:15:24,550 So this is where we start. 205 00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:26,732 It's all about the offer to begin with. 206 00:15:26,902 --> 00:15:27,982 This is great. 207 00:15:27,982 --> 00:15:40,827 And this is very timely because actually we've been having conversations about one of our sites which has a one time purchase on it, but it also has subscription options on there. 208 00:15:41,267 --> 00:15:44,608 it's interesting, isn't it, this whole idea. 209 00:15:44,608 --> 00:15:47,439 By the way, let me give a shout out if you are in the subscription business. 210 00:15:47,439 --> 00:15:49,630 SubSummit, are you going this year? 211 00:15:50,877 --> 00:15:55,804 Not really, I mean, being a father, I can't really go places. 212 00:15:55,845 --> 00:15:57,286 Yeah. 213 00:15:57,527 --> 00:15:59,032 But I want to. 214 00:15:59,032 --> 00:16:00,633 Yeah, well, it's a great show. 215 00:16:00,633 --> 00:16:12,158 And I know Paul Chambers is coming on and I know we've had Chris George on and he had very similar philosophy to what you said Thomas and actually actual fact he almost talked me 216 00:16:12,158 --> 00:16:17,240 into just doing my supplement company on a subscription only model. 217 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,321 Do I mean it's like, why would you want to do it any other way? 218 00:16:20,321 --> 00:16:22,057 Matt and is like, and I 219 00:16:22,057 --> 00:16:23,048 happened? 220 00:16:23,511 --> 00:16:30,385 He said he almost he almost turned you into a subscription based business what happened? 221 00:16:30,838 --> 00:16:35,971 Well, almost turned me into a subscription only based model. 222 00:16:35,971 --> 00:16:45,807 The way the supplement businesses were, we didn't look in at our purchases. 223 00:16:45,807 --> 00:16:48,048 Well, to be fair, let me just qualify. 224 00:16:48,048 --> 00:16:55,993 I would probably think about it more now because such a high percentage of our orders are now subscription, right? 225 00:16:55,993 --> 00:16:57,492 So we've converted. 226 00:16:57,492 --> 00:17:01,244 a lot of our faithful customers into subscription customers. 227 00:17:02,605 --> 00:17:06,462 So I'm very keen to talk to you about offers and what works there. 228 00:17:06,462 --> 00:17:14,651 I'm also really keen to hear what you've got to say Thomas about because this again is another conversation we've been having with our subscription customers with one time 229 00:17:14,651 --> 00:17:18,073 purchase clients, right? 230 00:17:18,073 --> 00:17:26,838 And I love my conversation I had recently with the guy, the founder from the razor company, always completely gone, it'll come back to me. 231 00:17:26,838 --> 00:17:29,869 He deliberately didn't do subscription, which I thought was fascinating. 232 00:17:29,869 --> 00:17:31,640 That's definitely worth listening to. 233 00:17:33,641 --> 00:17:42,564 But the, we found with one-time purchases, it's really straightforward for me to do an upsell, right? 234 00:17:43,445 --> 00:17:46,386 And increase the average order value. 235 00:17:46,386 --> 00:17:54,298 Where we've had a bit of an issue is trying to figure out how do we increase the average order value on a subscription-based model? 236 00:17:54,298 --> 00:17:55,414 Do you see what I mean? 237 00:17:55,414 --> 00:18:02,936 So in other words, with supplements, you kind of go, right, well, I'll take my Omega-3, I'll take my multivit, and I'll take my vitamin D. 238 00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:05,517 And that's it, I'll put the whole thing on autopilot. 239 00:18:05,517 --> 00:18:14,739 So I subscribe to a deodorant company, for example, and every two months they send me out some deodorant, but that's it, it's a repeat purchase. 240 00:18:14,739 --> 00:18:24,602 And I think, I don't know how that deodorant company can get, can help me increase my order value over time. 241 00:18:24,842 --> 00:18:26,483 other than putting its prices up. 242 00:18:26,483 --> 00:18:28,585 How does it get me to buy more stuff? 243 00:18:28,585 --> 00:18:35,941 So two things I want to dig into, how to increase average order value, but let's start with the offer side of things. 244 00:18:35,941 --> 00:18:39,433 So you're talking about your first thing you've got to work on is the offer. 245 00:18:39,433 --> 00:18:43,206 And it can't just be subscribe and save because that's lazy, which I just think is brilliant. 246 00:18:43,206 --> 00:18:45,818 I'm totally quoting you on that. 247 00:18:46,079 --> 00:18:48,570 What else, what sort of things should we be thinking about? 248 00:18:48,570 --> 00:18:51,112 What have you found work really well? 249 00:18:51,933 --> 00:18:58,601 Yeah, and there is a very interesting founder course coming out where I'm a guest. 250 00:18:58,685 --> 00:19:08,550 and it's been taught by the co-founder of Motif Digital, the agency I used to work for, Jordan Menard. 251 00:19:08,550 --> 00:19:10,311 Shout out to Jordan, amazing guy. 252 00:19:10,311 --> 00:19:16,754 So he breaks down this entire subject in a course for the platform founder, if you want to check it out. 253 00:19:16,754 --> 00:19:19,035 I'm a guest for like a module. 254 00:19:19,295 --> 00:19:23,057 But basically the whole point is to create something that... 255 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:26,410 adds value to the lifestyle of the person. 256 00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:29,832 We don't buy a product just for the product itself. 257 00:19:29,832 --> 00:19:31,303 It supports a lifestyle. 258 00:19:31,303 --> 00:19:33,093 It supports our identity. 259 00:19:33,093 --> 00:19:38,356 So things that you can add that support the lifestyle of the person and who you want to be. 260 00:19:38,456 --> 00:19:42,778 Number two, things that you can use with a product. 261 00:19:42,778 --> 00:19:44,259 Very straightforward example. 262 00:19:44,259 --> 00:19:46,100 You buy coffee, you need a cup. 263 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:47,980 You need a frother or whisk. 264 00:19:47,980 --> 00:19:48,280 Right? 265 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,262 So this is something that you will need. 266 00:19:51,262 --> 00:19:53,643 You were going to buy this anyway, or you had it at home. 267 00:19:53,643 --> 00:19:57,383 but now you have a branded version of it. 268 00:19:57,383 --> 00:20:00,443 And things that are branded, you show it to your friends. 269 00:20:00,483 --> 00:20:01,803 And this is marketing. 270 00:20:02,103 --> 00:20:04,123 You can take a picture of it. 271 00:20:04,183 --> 00:20:06,183 You know what you can't take a picture of? 272 00:20:06,443 --> 00:20:07,883 Things that are digital. 273 00:20:08,103 --> 00:20:09,703 It needs to be physical. 274 00:20:09,843 --> 00:20:20,823 So anything that can be added in a way where postage doesn't get inflated, you know the price of posting doesn't get inflated, that can fit into a box as a starter kit, and you 275 00:20:20,823 --> 00:20:23,583 turn it into a beautiful starter kit, that's a great offer to 276 00:20:23,583 --> 00:20:24,424 get with. 277 00:20:24,424 --> 00:20:32,889 But I've seen the mistake a lot of brands make is they add too much value in the starter kit. 278 00:20:32,889 --> 00:20:37,112 And by comparison, the second third order don't look so appealing anymore. 279 00:20:37,112 --> 00:20:41,815 What I alluded to earlier, they cancel because they want to get all the freebies. 280 00:20:41,815 --> 00:20:47,839 So what we've seen working really well is spacing out the freebies month over month. 281 00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:49,891 So they have something else to be excited about. 282 00:20:49,891 --> 00:20:53,483 And basically they gamify the experience. 283 00:20:53,483 --> 00:20:55,104 block the new freebies. 284 00:20:55,104 --> 00:20:56,445 It's a game. 285 00:20:56,445 --> 00:21:03,570 And if you add all sorts of fun activities, post-purchase, the whole thing becomes a game. 286 00:21:03,570 --> 00:21:04,971 It's who can be healthier. 287 00:21:04,971 --> 00:21:09,593 It's who can be more loyal, who can not break the streak. 288 00:21:09,593 --> 00:21:16,478 So you turn this whole thing into a fun lifestyle project, becoming a better self. 289 00:21:16,478 --> 00:21:18,140 And it all starts with the offer. 290 00:21:18,140 --> 00:21:21,982 But again, finally, the offer needs to be something that makes sense economically. 291 00:21:21,982 --> 00:21:23,405 So I'm not going to 292 00:21:23,405 --> 00:21:28,329 play CFO here, I'm not the person that runs the numbers for the offer. 293 00:21:28,329 --> 00:21:32,903 I'm a person that is participating in the process of designing the offer. 294 00:21:32,903 --> 00:21:37,667 But I don't know how to explain what makes most sense financially. 295 00:21:37,667 --> 00:21:46,494 What I know is once the offer is out, I know how to track the payback period and I know how to maximize LTV after that. 296 00:21:46,494 --> 00:21:53,309 And the goal, just like Netflix is trying to push the retention point as close as possible. 297 00:21:53,309 --> 00:22:03,186 the first episode meaning retention point is once the person is hooked now and will watch the rest of the series no matter what they want to get you hooked as early as possible 298 00:22:03,186 --> 00:22:12,892 same thing for the payback period you want to push that payback period as close as possible to the first purchase if you can be profitable the first purchase amazing but 299 00:22:12,892 --> 00:22:23,229 most brands are not so the goal is to make sure and this is a great site for for the AOV question is to push AOV to push the stickiness of 300 00:22:23,229 --> 00:22:25,942 product and to get them to commit for longer. 301 00:22:26,404 --> 00:22:31,361 So yeah, let's back to you now, because if we start talking about AOV, I will never stop. 302 00:22:31,361 --> 00:22:33,594 And it's going to be a monologue. 303 00:22:33,594 --> 00:22:42,614 Well, I know we'll get into that in just a second, but I like what you say here because what I'm understanding here, Thomas, and it makes total sense when you think about it is 304 00:22:42,614 --> 00:22:46,714 actually take your no brainer offer and space it out. 305 00:22:46,714 --> 00:22:52,234 So it's a no brainer offer for the first order, the second order, the third order, the fourth order, and so on and forth. 306 00:22:52,954 --> 00:22:58,214 And bring those, just elongate that offer so it makes sense just to keep coming back. 307 00:22:58,214 --> 00:23:00,554 And obviously it's got to work for your economics. 308 00:23:01,268 --> 00:23:02,898 and you know, work that out. 309 00:23:02,898 --> 00:23:11,761 But I like it because like you say, most subscribed businesses are all about that first offer to try and get you to sign up. 310 00:23:12,881 --> 00:23:21,043 And not so great at then keeping you, you know, giving you reasons to stay really is like, I don't know. 311 00:23:22,464 --> 00:23:26,425 And so you do tend to leave, but I do get the point. 312 00:23:26,858 --> 00:23:30,860 I'm thinking, for example, about this deodorant company, actually they 313 00:23:30,860 --> 00:23:35,151 they gave you an offer at the start, but they've not really done anything since. 314 00:23:35,151 --> 00:23:38,352 And I've left it just cause it's on autopilot. 315 00:23:38,352 --> 00:23:40,733 Would I recommend them as a company? 316 00:23:40,773 --> 00:23:48,856 You start getting into really interesting existential questions all of a sudden because of, well, actually in theory, they've still got my business. 317 00:23:48,856 --> 00:23:53,197 I've not stopped it yet, but I don't feel any brand loyalty to them, if that makes sense. 318 00:23:53,197 --> 00:23:55,778 I don't feel like they've done anything to... 319 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:04,196 to stop me from churning if I find a better product or someone else woos me over here. 320 00:24:04,217 --> 00:24:17,780 And I think whilst at the moment it's convenient, it's not actually retaining my mind and my soul other than it's just retaining my wallet because it's super convenient for right 321 00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:18,440 now. 322 00:24:19,143 --> 00:24:22,283 Yeah, you're saying that you're not a fan. 323 00:24:22,406 --> 00:24:25,616 You are just a buyer on auto. 324 00:24:26,358 --> 00:24:28,088 Yeah, I mean, I obviously like their product. 325 00:24:28,088 --> 00:24:30,179 I keep using it. 326 00:24:30,339 --> 00:24:33,310 And in some respects, I like what the company stands for. 327 00:24:33,310 --> 00:24:37,431 What I've not become is a lot, well, maybe I've not become a loyal fan. 328 00:24:37,431 --> 00:24:40,272 I've not shared anything out on social media. 329 00:24:40,272 --> 00:24:45,263 I've not gone and said, hey, you should buy this because it's awesome. 330 00:24:45,263 --> 00:24:49,674 They've not really done anything to sort of keep me as a customer. 331 00:24:49,674 --> 00:24:51,625 They don't really email me. 332 00:24:53,044 --> 00:24:57,122 It's sporadic as to whether they email me to let me know my orders coming out. 333 00:24:57,122 --> 00:24:59,805 It's just, it's just a bit rubbish really. 334 00:24:59,945 --> 00:25:02,754 But this is the reality. 335 00:25:02,754 --> 00:25:04,919 This is what most brands do. 336 00:25:05,077 --> 00:25:05,449 Mm. 337 00:25:05,449 --> 00:25:16,049 It's that's why they asked me to come in and build something, system, a proper system that actually collects data, but actually pushes for an app. 338 00:25:16,049 --> 00:25:29,289 So all cross-sell that actually builds loyalty, uh, that educates the customer that gives them a real reason to, to choose to stay subscribed and then to keep talking about the 339 00:25:29,289 --> 00:25:31,029 brand and bringing more people in. 340 00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:33,549 This is what retention systems do. 341 00:25:33,609 --> 00:25:35,455 Most brands don't email. 342 00:25:35,455 --> 00:25:39,257 don't email enough and they don't build that brand loyalty. 343 00:25:39,257 --> 00:25:45,440 And again, right now they could have your business and they do because as you said there's no competition. 344 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,323 But the moment somebody else comes on board and that has a better product they're done. 345 00:25:50,323 --> 00:25:54,944 So this business might be dying without them knowing. 346 00:25:54,944 --> 00:25:55,559 Yeah. 347 00:25:55,559 --> 00:25:58,212 just because it just hasn't happened yet. 348 00:25:58,393 --> 00:26:04,440 But wishing or hoping for a competitor not to arrive is not a strategy. 349 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,544 It's not something the investors would really support. 350 00:26:08,625 --> 00:26:11,968 So yeah, you gotta be proactive, man. 351 00:26:12,406 --> 00:26:26,224 You really have, especially in the subscription space, because again, one of the things that I've learned from certainly people like Chris George is that actually whatever it is 352 00:26:26,224 --> 00:26:31,787 now, we've got an average of, I can't remember the number, so let's just pick a random number. 353 00:26:31,787 --> 00:26:34,518 We've got a typical average of say 20 subscriptions. 354 00:26:34,518 --> 00:26:39,001 We subscribe to Netflix, to Disney, to Sky Sports, and whatever it is, right? 355 00:26:39,001 --> 00:26:41,182 So we've got all these different subscriptions. 356 00:26:41,334 --> 00:26:44,255 We've now got to the point where we don't want any more subscriptions. 357 00:26:44,255 --> 00:26:46,937 So to take on a new one, we have to cancel an old one. 358 00:26:46,937 --> 00:26:49,197 It's kind of a mindset that we've fallen in. 359 00:26:49,358 --> 00:26:57,021 And so the ones that we cancel tend to be the ones that where we just don't have, like you said, we've not had a reason to stay subscribed. 360 00:26:57,021 --> 00:26:59,298 There's no sort of real brand loyalty. 361 00:26:59,298 --> 00:27:07,556 It's just like, well, I'm now prepared to go through the inconvenience of canceling the subscription because I no longer want you and I want this one over here more. 362 00:27:07,556 --> 00:27:08,448 And it doesn't... 363 00:27:08,448 --> 00:27:10,819 And it's not even like Netflix competing with Disney. 364 00:27:10,819 --> 00:27:19,451 It's like Netflix competing with my deodorant company all of a sudden, because I've just maxed out on all my subscriptions, which makes competition, I think, a little bit more 365 00:27:19,451 --> 00:27:20,552 interesting. 366 00:27:20,552 --> 00:27:24,426 so I'm intrigued by this. 367 00:27:24,426 --> 00:27:30,032 And I'm intrigued by these sort of changes in this model and why what you're saying is becoming more and more important. 368 00:27:32,051 --> 00:27:44,826 What you're saying between the lines, what I'm reading is that the product itself plays as an important role as the brand around the product. 369 00:27:45,067 --> 00:27:46,527 Here's an example. 370 00:27:47,048 --> 00:27:49,020 You have a dildo, right? 371 00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:49,929 But... 372 00:27:50,095 --> 00:27:51,246 Will you stop using it? 373 00:27:51,246 --> 00:27:53,267 Will you stop using a deodorant overall? 374 00:27:53,267 --> 00:27:54,667 Probably not. 375 00:27:55,047 --> 00:27:55,988 Coffee. 376 00:27:55,988 --> 00:27:59,129 People that drink coffee will never stop drinking coffee. 377 00:27:59,129 --> 00:28:06,072 People that take sleeping pills, they will never stop taking sleeping pills or they will find something that helps them sleep. 378 00:28:06,193 --> 00:28:13,636 All we do is basically try to fulfill our existing needs with a better product. 379 00:28:13,636 --> 00:28:19,979 So if somebody comes along with a better product, better brand, more fun experience and does what you 380 00:28:19,979 --> 00:28:25,182 want to get better and healthier, you will get it. 381 00:28:25,243 --> 00:28:34,459 You might pay the premium, but you're switching from your existing need, a solution to your existing need, to a better solution. 382 00:28:34,459 --> 00:28:38,752 Brands cannot manufacture needs out of thin air. 383 00:28:38,752 --> 00:28:40,973 They tap into existing needs. 384 00:28:40,973 --> 00:28:47,878 So if something is a luxury in hard times, you might cancel it just because it's an extra. 385 00:28:47,878 --> 00:28:48,458 Right? 386 00:28:48,458 --> 00:28:49,959 So the product 387 00:28:49,959 --> 00:28:59,044 the industry you're in plays an important role in retention, know, as much as the quality of your offer and everything we're talking about. 388 00:28:59,044 --> 00:29:07,690 So sometimes you might have the perfect retention system, the perfect offer, perfect product, ecological, know, cheap, convenient. 389 00:29:07,690 --> 00:29:12,892 But if it's a luxury, somebody might cancel this first when the times get hard. 390 00:29:13,250 --> 00:29:15,230 Yeah, yeah, it's so true. 391 00:29:15,230 --> 00:29:16,170 So true. 392 00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:18,130 So Thomas, let's talk about AOV. 393 00:29:18,130 --> 00:29:22,790 Actually, before we do, normally I save this to the end, but it's in my head right now. 394 00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:31,030 If you're regular to the show, you'll know, usually not every show, because quite often I'll forget, but I've remembered today, I asked my guests for a question. 395 00:29:31,030 --> 00:29:35,010 And this is quite an interesting point of the show to ask for said question. 396 00:29:35,250 --> 00:29:39,870 So Thomas, you said to me at the start of the recording, you're like, I've got my question, I know what it is. 397 00:29:39,870 --> 00:29:40,730 Do you want to know what it is? 398 00:29:40,730 --> 00:29:42,432 I'm like, no, tell me in the show. 399 00:29:42,432 --> 00:29:45,940 So now is your time to give me your question. 400 00:29:46,547 --> 00:29:52,102 Hello ladies and gentlemen, so Matt wants me to ask a question. 401 00:29:52,203 --> 00:29:58,488 So Matt, you have recorded hundreds of... 402 00:29:58,885 --> 00:30:00,245 of interviews. 403 00:30:00,245 --> 00:30:09,908 You have spoken with hundreds of interesting people that are experts and they're amazing at what they do and they have audiences and they work with amazing brands. 404 00:30:09,908 --> 00:30:16,390 You are not a content creator to me, you are a network provider. 405 00:30:16,570 --> 00:30:24,232 So how do you think about all this asset that you've built, the network, the side product of your show? 406 00:30:24,232 --> 00:30:26,873 How do you think about it and what are your plans? 407 00:30:28,918 --> 00:30:30,579 This is a great question. 408 00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:31,921 Very good question. 409 00:30:31,921 --> 00:30:35,574 In fact, I was talking to, I don't know, do you know Peter Murphy Lewis? 410 00:30:35,574 --> 00:30:36,164 Do you know him? 411 00:30:36,164 --> 00:30:37,405 Strategic Pete? 412 00:30:37,405 --> 00:30:40,067 He's been on the show before actually. 413 00:30:40,148 --> 00:30:44,861 And, I don't know, well, he does play musical instruments. 414 00:30:44,861 --> 00:30:46,162 He's also on the TV a lot. 415 00:30:46,162 --> 00:30:50,355 And he's, anyway, he's a marketing guy. 416 00:30:50,596 --> 00:30:53,439 Anyway, I was talking to him about this very question. 417 00:30:53,439 --> 00:30:57,682 So today, this afternoon in fact, it was morning for him, afternoon for me. 418 00:30:57,682 --> 00:30:59,823 And so I will answer that question. 419 00:30:59,823 --> 00:31:01,634 It will be on my social media channels. 420 00:31:01,634 --> 00:31:02,764 Come find me. 421 00:31:02,764 --> 00:31:07,506 Let us find me on LinkedIn at Matt Edmundson, or you can find me on Instagram at Matt Edmundson. 422 00:31:07,506 --> 00:31:11,078 I really need to get better at the old Instagram thing, but I'm pretty active on the old LinkedIn. 423 00:31:11,078 --> 00:31:13,069 So come find me there and you'll find the answer to that question. 424 00:31:13,069 --> 00:31:14,529 Thomas, thank you for that question. 425 00:31:14,529 --> 00:31:16,230 I thought it was a great question. 426 00:31:16,810 --> 00:31:18,171 So let's get back into it. 427 00:31:18,171 --> 00:31:18,901 AOV. 428 00:31:18,901 --> 00:31:26,114 How do I, if I'm a business which is managing my attention through subscriptions. 429 00:31:26,183 --> 00:31:29,847 which I appreciate is one specific route to do retention. 430 00:31:30,028 --> 00:31:33,123 And obviously a very sensible one. 431 00:31:33,123 --> 00:31:38,299 mean, my experience is this has been great for retention marketing is introducing the subscription. 432 00:31:38,721 --> 00:31:39,721 What? 433 00:31:41,558 --> 00:31:43,059 How do I increase average order value? 434 00:31:43,059 --> 00:31:46,039 Because this for me is a big thing, right? 435 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,821 Subscription has its advantages. 436 00:31:48,901 --> 00:31:56,764 One of its key downsides, it seems to me, is the ability to easily increase average order value with upsells and cross-sells and things like that when someone's going through 437 00:31:56,764 --> 00:31:57,744 checkout. 438 00:31:57,764 --> 00:31:58,815 What are your thoughts on this? 439 00:31:58,815 --> 00:32:02,836 Because I have my pen, I have my paper, and I'm very keen to hear. 440 00:32:03,369 --> 00:32:08,669 Is it okay to also shout out a few companies that can make this easier? 441 00:32:08,869 --> 00:32:12,369 I'm not getting plagued by them, I'm a big fan. 442 00:32:13,255 --> 00:32:19,068 To me, it's actually quite easy to get these upsells and cross-sells and increase AOV. 443 00:32:19,068 --> 00:32:27,051 So I'm kind of surprised about like the number of businesses that struggle with this, because to me, it should be more straightforward. 444 00:32:27,112 --> 00:32:39,377 One thing that a lot of brands do, and I support this, is during checkout or before checkout, you actually push for more of the product they're about to purchase. 445 00:32:39,377 --> 00:32:43,189 So the good old upsell, you take 30 servings, now get 60. 446 00:32:43,189 --> 00:32:45,420 the servings and here's the deal. 447 00:32:45,481 --> 00:32:48,963 Or you cross-sell something that fits well with the product. 448 00:32:48,963 --> 00:32:59,970 You know on the back end which product goes well with which one from your portfolio and you create rules where you recommend this product when something is in the cart. 449 00:32:59,970 --> 00:33:02,142 So you just need to look into the analytics. 450 00:33:02,142 --> 00:33:10,257 Now by now we're talking about once they've started their subscription, the way that I approach this is in two phases. 451 00:33:10,257 --> 00:33:13,129 Phase number one, they haven't received the product yet. 452 00:33:13,129 --> 00:33:16,581 see the first order and they're anxious. 453 00:33:16,581 --> 00:33:17,902 Is it a good purchase? 454 00:33:17,902 --> 00:33:18,843 They're skeptical. 455 00:33:18,843 --> 00:33:20,414 Is it the right brand? 456 00:33:20,414 --> 00:33:21,685 Is this good value for money? 457 00:33:21,685 --> 00:33:32,432 So this is the time to get them to alleviate this pain and to get them to talk about themselves and reveal their needs because this is going to be the way we personalize their 458 00:33:32,432 --> 00:33:33,313 experience later. 459 00:33:33,313 --> 00:33:41,498 So I'm always asking right away, right after purchase, send them an email asking for questions, for a few answers in a survey. 460 00:33:41,498 --> 00:33:43,391 And I use these answers 461 00:33:43,391 --> 00:33:46,071 personalize their experience later. 462 00:33:46,071 --> 00:33:57,391 So armed with these questions, once the product is there, I make sure they share their enthusiasm in a Facebook group or in an ad, which makes the ad even more profitable 463 00:33:57,391 --> 00:34:00,551 because it has sub-social proof. 464 00:34:00,651 --> 00:34:02,751 And now these people, they're excited. 465 00:34:02,751 --> 00:34:06,651 You've done the right thing up to the delivery point, and now they're excited. 466 00:34:06,651 --> 00:34:10,531 But it's not the right time to upsell them because they haven't used the product. 467 00:34:10,531 --> 00:34:12,961 They need to feel confident about the product. 468 00:34:12,961 --> 00:34:13,911 first. 469 00:34:14,032 --> 00:34:25,140 The way that I achieve this with my brands is I do what I have invented this method which is called bite-sized premium master classes. 470 00:34:25,371 --> 00:34:34,105 A lot of brands do the simple trick like send an email with a lot of information or send an email with a blog post. 471 00:34:34,105 --> 00:34:37,207 And they believe that the education of the product is done. 472 00:34:37,207 --> 00:34:38,717 People don't consume blog posts. 473 00:34:38,717 --> 00:34:40,588 They don't read long emails. 474 00:34:40,588 --> 00:34:42,349 They need bite sized information. 475 00:34:42,349 --> 00:34:53,934 So I take this existing information and turn it into master classes, usually on Typeform, shout out to Typeform, where they see a few words in each slide with visuals and they 476 00:34:53,934 --> 00:34:55,315 click next and they 477 00:34:55,315 --> 00:35:01,960 get spoon-fed, know, small bits and pieces of the education we want them to get. 478 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:12,227 And they start realizing that the product can be a part of their lifestyle, how it helps them achieve the long-term goals, the time span for them to feel the full effects of the 479 00:35:12,227 --> 00:35:14,248 product, etc. 480 00:35:14,268 --> 00:35:19,632 At the end of each masterclass, that's where the magic happens. 481 00:35:19,632 --> 00:35:20,973 I upsell them. 482 00:35:21,539 --> 00:35:31,800 more of their existing product if it makes sense or if I know what their initial purchase is and collect the right information post purchase, I offer them something that 483 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,492 complements the product. 484 00:35:33,577 --> 00:35:45,677 And usually people that don't participate in these master classes, they will get a default option based on what I know historically from my customers and their journey. 485 00:35:45,757 --> 00:35:58,557 But what I've seen, Matt, is that 30, 33 % of people that complete at least one master class, they take the upsell or cross sell, which is huge. 486 00:35:58,997 --> 00:36:03,751 So I've basically turned knowledge and education into a 487 00:36:03,751 --> 00:36:08,675 event that has day one, day two, day three, and then there is a graduation. 488 00:36:08,675 --> 00:36:17,160 And the graduation includes a bundle of badges, downloadables, the next freebie, and a discount. 489 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:23,785 And people choose what they want, and eventually they get multiple reminders and a fun system that doesn't feel pushy. 490 00:36:23,785 --> 00:36:27,657 And again, a lot of them get the absolute cross-salt. 491 00:36:27,657 --> 00:36:33,451 So in fact, that's why once I started implementing this system in businesses, you see that the 492 00:36:33,451 --> 00:36:38,464 upsell, the take of the upsell product increases in revenue more and more. 493 00:36:38,464 --> 00:36:42,677 So it stocks up and these people have far superior retention. 494 00:36:42,977 --> 00:36:44,979 So this is one of the things that I do. 495 00:36:44,979 --> 00:36:56,536 The second opportunity after they complete the master class and a week after the product, I check in with them again, send them to a good old type form and I asked them about their 496 00:36:56,536 --> 00:36:57,867 three main objections. 497 00:36:57,867 --> 00:36:59,669 I want to see how well they're doing. 498 00:36:59,669 --> 00:37:03,871 I asked them if they feel an early impact in their well-being. 499 00:37:03,971 --> 00:37:06,523 or whatever the product is trying to achieve. 500 00:37:06,523 --> 00:37:12,957 And I also ask them a question that will qualify them for a cross-sell. 501 00:37:12,957 --> 00:37:17,841 For example, let's say I offer a product that boosts your brain. 502 00:37:17,841 --> 00:37:19,902 It makes you more productive, more focused. 503 00:37:19,902 --> 00:37:25,326 But I also offer products that helps you sleep better, products for your gut, et cetera. 504 00:37:25,326 --> 00:37:33,791 I will ask a question that will help understand if the right next pitch is the sleep. 505 00:37:33,883 --> 00:37:36,423 or the gut product or whatnot. 506 00:37:36,843 --> 00:37:39,143 But I will not ask, hey, would you like this product? 507 00:37:39,143 --> 00:37:44,043 I will ask them a question that reveals the problem if they have another problem. 508 00:37:44,043 --> 00:37:49,963 And then we follow up with a sequence that pushes what they already told us. 509 00:37:49,963 --> 00:37:56,119 So now it's a seamless promotion that is true to who they are and what they struggle with. 510 00:37:56,119 --> 00:37:56,701 Yep. 511 00:37:56,701 --> 00:38:06,536 Finally, before the first reveal, I will basically do the raise your hand kind of sequence where I will show what the offer is. 512 00:38:06,536 --> 00:38:08,881 It's going to be usually a bundle of multiple products. 513 00:38:08,881 --> 00:38:17,110 It's going to be more expensive or it's going to be the product they bought, six months worth of stock or a year worth of stock. 514 00:38:17,291 --> 00:38:20,052 And initially we'll send it to every customer. 515 00:38:20,052 --> 00:38:26,635 Later, as I get data, I will send it only to people that have been tagged as likely to stay on board and not 516 00:38:26,635 --> 00:38:27,736 churn, right? 517 00:38:27,736 --> 00:38:31,618 If you're likely to churn, it doesn't make sense for you to buy a bigger bundle. 518 00:38:31,618 --> 00:38:35,201 Instead, you're to get an offer like a down sell so you don't churn. 519 00:38:35,201 --> 00:38:37,192 But initially, I will send this to everyone. 520 00:38:37,192 --> 00:38:44,767 So a bundle that upsells you and locks you in for a longer period of time, or a bundle with more products so you can get the holistic experience. 521 00:38:44,767 --> 00:38:48,089 And these people, like the customers, eat them up. 522 00:38:48,089 --> 00:38:53,893 They love these products and these offers because they make sense in terms of where they are. 523 00:38:53,893 --> 00:38:56,615 And we personalize the journey based on the signal. 524 00:38:56,615 --> 00:38:57,815 they gave us. 525 00:38:57,876 --> 00:39:06,362 And as you can imagine, this cannot happen unless you send a lot of email, but the right type of email, so you can collect all these signals. 526 00:39:06,362 --> 00:39:11,426 So taking a step back, brands don't send enough email. 527 00:39:11,426 --> 00:39:15,268 They don't communicate with the customers enough. 528 00:39:15,308 --> 00:39:17,310 That is a big takeaway. 529 00:39:17,310 --> 00:39:21,052 And if you're sending three or four emails post purchase, 530 00:39:22,171 --> 00:39:23,512 You're doing it all wrong. 531 00:39:23,512 --> 00:39:29,147 Sorry to say, but you are leaving so much on the table. 532 00:39:30,047 --> 00:39:35,092 Retention can go much, much higher and cross cells and up cells and LTV. 533 00:39:35,488 --> 00:39:37,099 Yeah, that's supreme. 534 00:39:37,099 --> 00:39:46,443 Because actually, a lot of what you've talked about there, Thomas works in subscription, but actually, it would also work in a one time purchase deal. 535 00:39:47,804 --> 00:39:58,648 I love what you said right at the start, excuse me, where, and I've not heard many people talk about it for a long time, it used to be this real buzz topic, but it sort of seems to 536 00:39:58,648 --> 00:40:00,149 have died a little bit. 537 00:40:00,749 --> 00:40:02,242 And that's the the 538 00:40:02,242 --> 00:40:06,742 the period between a customer clicking by now and the customer receiving their product. 539 00:40:06,742 --> 00:40:08,802 There's always a period of time. 540 00:40:08,862 --> 00:40:11,182 And in the UK, that might be one or two days. 541 00:40:11,182 --> 00:40:15,382 It might be three or four, depending on when it was ordered and when it was sold, when it was delivered. 542 00:40:15,422 --> 00:40:17,242 In the States, it may be more, do you know what mean? 543 00:40:17,242 --> 00:40:19,142 It depending on the size of your country. 544 00:40:19,282 --> 00:40:25,042 So you do have this thing where there is this anticipation. 545 00:40:25,042 --> 00:40:28,342 So in my hand, shout out to Tom's Studio. 546 00:40:28,462 --> 00:40:30,442 I really like Tom's Studio's pens. 547 00:40:30,442 --> 00:40:31,418 I have a... 548 00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:34,681 fountain pen in my hand where I write my notes with. 549 00:40:34,681 --> 00:40:36,132 I just really like their pens, right? 550 00:40:36,132 --> 00:40:42,026 And I ordered this pen a couple days ago, because I wanted one for my office. 551 00:40:42,307 --> 00:40:46,330 And it arrived next day, but it was delivered to my neighbor. 552 00:40:46,330 --> 00:40:55,098 And I thought, isn't it's just a bit, I really like their stuff and their packaging and their ethos. 553 00:40:55,098 --> 00:41:00,872 you know, I do, I am a bit of loyal fan of Tom Studios, but I'm just a little bit 554 00:41:00,872 --> 00:41:03,864 Little bit disappointed Tom Studios if you're listening. 555 00:41:03,864 --> 00:41:15,552 There's been no email and and just To what Thomas has said you could have sent me an email going Your fountain pens on the way Matt this this and sent me two emails the same day 556 00:41:15,552 --> 00:41:23,538 that up You know one email the day I purchased an email the day after going This is how to write with a fountain pen because it does require something a little bit different This is 557 00:41:23,538 --> 00:41:26,490 how you clean and maintain your fountain pen watch this video. 558 00:41:26,490 --> 00:41:28,561 Give me some nice quirky graphics 559 00:41:29,154 --> 00:41:37,034 By the way, if you draw something or write some poetry with it, take a photo and tag us with it on social media, do you know what mean? 560 00:41:37,034 --> 00:41:41,114 Those kind of things, they just haven't happened. 561 00:41:41,254 --> 00:41:49,854 And I get it because it's a small company, I guess there's like a handful of people trying to do everything and you can only do so much. 562 00:41:49,974 --> 00:41:53,758 But this idea of sending three or four post purchase emails. 563 00:41:53,758 --> 00:41:59,603 especially in that time where I'm waiting for the product and you can turn my fear. 564 00:41:59,603 --> 00:42:05,668 I loved how you talked about how you turn their fear or their anxiety into excitement. 565 00:42:05,668 --> 00:42:09,371 That was what I wrote in my notes, turn their anxiety into excitement. 566 00:42:09,411 --> 00:42:10,652 I love that. 567 00:42:10,652 --> 00:42:14,175 And I think it's just a shame we're not doing that. 568 00:42:14,315 --> 00:42:19,039 you join me at the moment and any more than we actually are. 569 00:42:19,380 --> 00:42:22,762 And I think even just doing that, you're going to have some massive wins. 570 00:42:23,325 --> 00:42:27,108 Yeah, and I really want to share this analogy. 571 00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:31,632 A lot of brands will say, yeah, but you know, people don't read emails. 572 00:42:31,733 --> 00:42:36,757 And you know, all these the old spiel about email is dead for the last 20 years. 573 00:42:37,558 --> 00:42:40,600 But email will go to space. 574 00:42:41,021 --> 00:42:46,366 But we're still going to use the spoon because it's a proven tool. 575 00:42:46,366 --> 00:42:48,928 It's been there for for eons. 576 00:42:49,571 --> 00:42:51,282 And the same thing for email. 577 00:42:51,282 --> 00:42:57,364 We might still send email to people when we go to space because it's the most reliable tool. 578 00:42:57,364 --> 00:42:59,045 We will never stop using email. 579 00:42:59,045 --> 00:43:06,428 So if brands are afraid of sending email, like would you be afraid of like eating with a spoon? 580 00:43:06,428 --> 00:43:07,749 It's a proven tool. 581 00:43:07,749 --> 00:43:08,929 Just use it. 582 00:43:09,521 --> 00:43:10,582 yeah, very much so. 583 00:43:10,582 --> 00:43:17,469 one more thing that a lot of brands are actually missing out on and actually two things. 584 00:43:17,469 --> 00:43:20,812 Number one, meet the customer where they are. 585 00:43:20,812 --> 00:43:22,863 And number two, tap into their network. 586 00:43:22,863 --> 00:43:25,876 You know, has to do with the question that I asked you about the network. 587 00:43:25,876 --> 00:43:28,699 Number one, meet the customer where they are. 588 00:43:28,699 --> 00:43:30,700 What makes most sense is... 589 00:43:31,375 --> 00:43:38,769 If you bring customers from Facebook, from Meta, build a Facebook group and put these people in there. 590 00:43:38,769 --> 00:43:42,950 You will generate a lot of UGC, a lot of social proof. 591 00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:51,604 They will do the selling for you because if there are a hundred thousand people on the Facebook group that love the product, you might think these people know something that I 592 00:43:51,604 --> 00:43:52,025 don't. 593 00:43:52,025 --> 00:43:55,780 You know, I didn't get the effects of the product fast, but these people did. 594 00:43:55,780 --> 00:43:57,397 So I'm going to stick around. 595 00:43:57,397 --> 00:44:01,259 So you got a, a never growing cell machine. 596 00:44:01,259 --> 00:44:04,839 the Facebook group, you know, so meet these people where they are. 597 00:44:04,839 --> 00:44:12,559 But also if you're talking to a younger audience and they found you on a mobile phone, then create an app. 598 00:44:12,559 --> 00:44:21,299 Use a company like Fuego to create an app and basically mirror the website and add additional features exclusive for the app. 599 00:44:21,299 --> 00:44:26,759 Now these people shop and they do things around your brand in their natural environment. 600 00:44:26,759 --> 00:44:30,119 But then also make sure that people bring friends. 601 00:44:30,119 --> 00:44:31,299 We use a referral 602 00:44:31,299 --> 00:44:35,001 because it's very easy and it just does the thing. 603 00:44:35,682 --> 00:44:38,224 allow people to talk about your product. 604 00:44:38,224 --> 00:44:44,688 Like you talked to me on this podcast and to a lot of people about your pen, right? 605 00:44:44,688 --> 00:44:56,276 If the pen company had sent like a referral email, you probably would have taken on like, know, whatever the deal is and talked about it and then profit from it as well. 606 00:44:56,276 --> 00:44:58,307 We don't do these things for the profit. 607 00:44:58,307 --> 00:45:01,119 We do it to recommend good products to 608 00:45:01,119 --> 00:45:02,620 friends and family, right? 609 00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:07,303 So tapping into this, it's just additional marketing that costs you nothing. 610 00:45:07,303 --> 00:45:09,405 You already paid to acquire this customer. 611 00:45:09,405 --> 00:45:17,810 So why not meet people where they are, create this community that is basically free marketing for you and tap into the network. 612 00:45:17,810 --> 00:45:23,214 These are basic things for me that a lot of brands just haven't tapped into. 613 00:45:23,214 --> 00:45:25,635 So just shout out to these amazing companies. 614 00:45:25,635 --> 00:45:31,019 And, you know, these are like some quick trips, quick tips that 615 00:45:31,019 --> 00:45:32,896 for retention that I want to share. 616 00:45:32,896 --> 00:45:33,626 Yeah, no, it's cool. 617 00:45:33,626 --> 00:45:35,687 And I'm glad you mentioned referral candy. 618 00:45:35,687 --> 00:45:38,048 Raoul has been on the podcast before. 619 00:45:38,729 --> 00:45:39,939 Sorry, well, I kicked my bin. 620 00:45:39,939 --> 00:45:44,511 Raoul's been on the podcast before and do go check out that episode. 621 00:45:44,511 --> 00:45:48,493 Shout out to what those guys are doing there, referral candy, which is great. 622 00:45:48,693 --> 00:45:50,794 I'm intrigued. 623 00:45:50,794 --> 00:46:00,681 The one thing you said, which slightly surprised me, was the fact you used type form to do these sort of mini master classes. 624 00:46:00,681 --> 00:46:03,936 for 10 years now. 625 00:46:03,936 --> 00:46:10,469 Yeah, yeah, and as soon as you said it, I could see it in my head and I thought that's really clever. 626 00:46:10,469 --> 00:46:13,710 I would not have thought to have done that with Typeform. 627 00:46:14,670 --> 00:46:20,272 But you know, Typeform's got good APIs and you can integrate it with all kinds of things now, can't you, and collect that customer data. 628 00:46:21,173 --> 00:46:26,075 And I like how you're using Typeform to pre-qualify. 629 00:46:26,986 --> 00:46:33,158 So for example, know, on a scale of one to 10, how well are you sleeping? 630 00:46:33,708 --> 00:46:37,760 could be one of the questions that we ask, because we have a sleep supplement, for example. 631 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,631 And you kind of go, these guys are not sleeping that well. 632 00:46:40,631 --> 00:46:46,233 So I can put them on a sequence which talks about how you can use nutrition to sleep better, right? 633 00:46:46,233 --> 00:46:51,105 So it's a really, it makes a lot of sense to me what you said. 634 00:46:51,105 --> 00:46:54,626 And I can see why you like it as much as you do, Thomas. 635 00:46:54,767 --> 00:46:57,888 And thank you. 636 00:46:57,888 --> 00:47:00,813 Thank you for sharing that and bringing that value. 637 00:47:00,813 --> 00:47:02,610 I've genuinely enjoyed it. 638 00:47:02,982 --> 00:47:08,505 If people want to find out more about you, maybe connect with you, ask them, maybe they've got some more questions. 639 00:47:08,505 --> 00:47:13,188 Maybe they even want to talk to you about hiring you and getting your help. 640 00:47:13,648 --> 00:47:21,052 Or the course that you mentioned, you mentioned a friend's course, but I don't remember you mentioning what it's called or where to find it. 641 00:47:21,653 --> 00:47:22,463 Now's your time. 642 00:47:22,463 --> 00:47:24,094 Share all that information. 643 00:47:25,037 --> 00:47:26,178 Sure. 644 00:47:26,358 --> 00:47:31,621 the best way for people to find out about me and talk with me is through LinkedIn, Thomas Lalas. 645 00:47:31,641 --> 00:47:39,076 I have created a consultancy firm called The Art of Ecomm I'm still building websites, as we speak, etc. 646 00:47:39,076 --> 00:47:42,508 So I wouldn't recommend people to go to my website, it looks ugly. 647 00:47:43,188 --> 00:47:47,871 And the course, yeah, under construction. 648 00:47:48,732 --> 00:47:49,563 Optimizing. 649 00:47:49,563 --> 00:47:51,727 my sites are still under construction. 650 00:47:52,455 --> 00:47:57,648 Yeah, and the course that I talked about, the platform is called Foundr. 651 00:47:57,648 --> 00:48:00,465 It's the word founder, but without the E. 652 00:48:00,465 --> 00:48:06,192 It used to be a magazine, now it's an online platform with courses, consultancy, and a lot of cool stuff. 653 00:48:06,192 --> 00:48:10,594 So it's dropping sometime in March this year. 654 00:48:10,774 --> 00:48:14,396 It's all about offers and subscriptions and it's really in depth. 655 00:48:15,737 --> 00:48:16,517 Yeah. 656 00:48:16,655 --> 00:48:18,617 Sounds absolutely fantastic. 657 00:48:18,617 --> 00:48:22,380 And I know the founder goes, yeah, yes, great, fantastic. 658 00:48:22,881 --> 00:48:32,940 So we will of course link to all of that in the show notes as well, including Thomas's LinkedIn, which is we were commenting, whose post were we commenting? 659 00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:37,024 But we both commented on Jimmy Kim's post. 660 00:48:37,024 --> 00:48:38,695 You should follow him on LinkedIn. 661 00:48:38,695 --> 00:48:40,857 He talks a lot about email and. 662 00:48:42,322 --> 00:48:44,014 I just really like his LinkedIn post. 663 00:48:44,014 --> 00:48:46,085 He just basically tells you off every time doesn't it? 664 00:48:46,085 --> 00:48:56,472 It's just really funny and and we were both commenting on that and Yeah, you like we should talk about this on the podcast So I Thomas is active on LinkedIn come come find him 665 00:48:56,472 --> 00:49:01,455 and say how's it and we will of course link to all of that in the show notes, but Thomas Thanks, man. 666 00:49:01,455 --> 00:49:05,758 Genuinely appreciate that and thanks for coming and delivering some great value 667 00:49:06,473 --> 00:49:07,393 Loved it, man. 668 00:49:07,393 --> 00:49:08,653 It's you're a natural. 669 00:49:08,653 --> 00:49:10,473 Again, back to the compliments. 670 00:49:11,173 --> 00:49:12,433 You're a natural. 671 00:49:12,433 --> 00:49:15,613 You make everything flow so easy. 672 00:49:15,793 --> 00:49:16,693 Yeah, well done. 673 00:49:16,693 --> 00:49:17,693 Good to see you. 674 00:49:17,693 --> 00:49:18,993 I enjoyed that chat. 675 00:49:19,303 --> 00:49:19,623 bless you. 676 00:49:19,623 --> 00:49:20,263 We should do this. 677 00:49:20,263 --> 00:49:21,284 Well done. 678 00:49:23,765 --> 00:49:24,536 Let's see applause. 679 00:49:24,536 --> 00:49:25,706 That's enough applause. 680 00:49:25,706 --> 00:49:27,587 So brilliant. 681 00:49:27,587 --> 00:49:37,483 Like I said, we will of course link to all of the information for Thomas in the show notes, which you can see on the website, ecommercepodcast.net. 682 00:49:37,483 --> 00:49:41,635 If you subscribe to our magical newsletter, they'll be in there as well. 683 00:49:41,635 --> 00:49:44,456 And of course, I'm not going to try and pull the wool over your eyes. 684 00:49:44,456 --> 00:49:47,732 You're listening to this on a podcast app more than likely. 685 00:49:47,732 --> 00:49:51,903 or you're watching it on YouTube, the links will also be in the show notes. 686 00:49:51,903 --> 00:49:54,653 Just download them or click them in the show notes. 687 00:49:54,653 --> 00:49:55,974 Don't download them, just click them. 688 00:49:55,974 --> 00:49:57,185 They're there as well. 689 00:49:57,185 --> 00:49:58,175 Go and say, how's it going? 690 00:49:58,175 --> 00:49:59,805 Introduce yourself to Thomas. 691 00:49:59,805 --> 00:50:01,516 I'm sure he'd love to talk to you. 692 00:50:01,516 --> 00:50:03,206 But what a great conversation. 693 00:50:03,206 --> 00:50:10,788 Now do be sure to follow the e-commerce podcast wherever you get your podcasts from, because we've got some more great conversations lined up. 694 00:50:10,788 --> 00:50:12,409 And of course, I don't want you to miss any of them. 695 00:50:12,409 --> 00:50:13,549 Why would I? 696 00:50:13,549 --> 00:50:17,098 And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first. 697 00:50:17,098 --> 00:50:18,359 You are awesome. 698 00:50:18,359 --> 00:50:20,301 Yes, you are created awesome. 699 00:50:20,301 --> 00:50:21,492 It's just a burden. 700 00:50:21,492 --> 00:50:24,025 You have to bear Thomas has got to bear it. 701 00:50:24,025 --> 00:50:25,226 I've got to bear it. 702 00:50:25,226 --> 00:50:27,288 You have got to bear it as well. 703 00:50:27,288 --> 00:50:34,795 Now the e-commerce podcast is produced by Podjunction You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. 704 00:50:34,795 --> 00:50:39,380 The theme music was written by Josh Edmundson and I just one more plug for the website. 705 00:50:39,380 --> 00:50:41,221 Get a e-commerce podcast. 706 00:50:43,783 --> 00:50:45,444 We never edit these things out. 707 00:50:45,444 --> 00:50:46,754 It's just the way we do it. 708 00:50:46,754 --> 00:50:49,106 They're just go to ecommercepodcast.net. 709 00:50:49,106 --> 00:50:49,656 It's real. 710 00:50:49,656 --> 00:50:50,366 It's authentic. 711 00:50:50,366 --> 00:50:50,876 That's right. 712 00:50:50,876 --> 00:50:53,727 It's just me messing up for the thousandth time. 713 00:50:53,868 --> 00:50:56,389 And if you're still listening at this stage, thank you. 714 00:50:56,389 --> 00:50:58,110 It's great to be with you. 715 00:50:58,270 --> 00:51:01,892 Do like, say like and subscribe to the show, but pretty much that's it from me. 716 00:51:01,892 --> 00:51:02,962 That's it from Thomas. 717 00:51:02,962 --> 00:51:04,417 Thank you so much for joining us. 718 00:51:04,417 --> 00:51:06,954 Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. 719 00:51:06,954 --> 00:51:08,515 I will see you next time. 720 00:51:08,615 --> 00:51:09,655 Bye for now.