Speaker: 00:00:00

Welcome to the E-Commerce Podcast with me, your host Matt Edmundson Now this is a show all

about delivering E-Commerce, well helping you deliver E-Commerce, wow.

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And to help us do just that today, I am chatting with Thomas Lalas about retention

marketing of all things.

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We're gonna get into that.

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Yes, we are gonna pick his expert brains.

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But before we do, let me invite you to stop on by the website, ecommercepodcast.net, sign

up for the newsletter.

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And all the show notes and links go to your website, no, they don't, go to your inbox

automatically for free.

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And you can get that just by signing up, which I appreciate on its own is just really

boring, right?

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It's the standard podcast newsletter, isn't it?

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Well, let me tell you, we are jazzing it up.

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There's going to be some extra content, some extra stuff in there.

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We're trying to make that newsletter a lot more, you know.

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A lot less lazy is probably the better way to put it and be a bit more creative with it.

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So do make sure you sign up for that at ecommercepodcast.net.

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Now let's talk about Thomas, a former military policeman, which if you're like me, makes

me instantly think of Jack Reacher.

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He's turned subscription whisperer, which I think is a great title and helps million

dollar e-commerce brands keep their customers coming back for more.

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When he is not slashing churn rates,

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and maximizing retention for eight to nine figure brands.

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This ex academic and startup founder is tackling his most challenging role yet.

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Being a dad.

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yes, Thomas, welcome to the show, man.

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Great to have you.

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How are we doing?

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Pleasure being here.

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I'm really excited.

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mean, you are such an amazing host.

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I can't wait for this conversation.

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So let's get going.

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gets you everywhere on this show Thomas.

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I'm not gonna lie That straight out of the I'm not being rude but it's it's in the how to

be a great podcast guest book 101 Just say really nice things about the host right at the

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start and they'll like you

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or just be a great host and people will just naturally give you compliments.

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And again, well done.

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It's working.

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Let's just change the topic of this show and call it feeding Matt's ego.

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That's what we should.

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man, love it, love it, love it.

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It's great to to you.

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Where about, I mean, I'm in the UK, it's seven o'clock in the evening here.

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I've got a belly full of delicious food.

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Whereabouts in the world are you?

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Right now I'm in Greece.

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I used to be in the UK, so it's nine o'clock my time.

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And after that, baby is going to call for, you know, to go to bed and I'll be there as a

good daddy.

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yeah, that's the last thing of the day, you know, interesting conversation with a fellow

Liverpoolian.

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Hi.

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Yes, I'm a Liverpool fan and I used to live in Manchester, but I supported Liverpool.

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I didn't tell anyone.

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I was in Manchester last night and I won't mention the Liverpool game because we don't

want to talk about it.

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But I was in Manchester last night with my long-standing friend.

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We've been friends for 30 years and he happened to be visiting Manchester.

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So Liverpool is not that far if you don't know British geography from Manchester, it's

like 40 minutes on the train.

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So I caught the train into Manchester.

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He and I had some food, just catching up.

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It really great.

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And we found this pub called

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What was it called?

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Something like the stinky cow or the stinky pig or something like that, or the craft.

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I don't know.

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It something to do with pigs, I think.

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And it was great because it had these booths and it was like a sports pub.

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And in each booth that would seat six people at the end of it was a TV.

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So you got your own TV.

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So you didn't have that thing where people couldn't see the TV.

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So we sat and we had a, we had a beer and we watched the game and we left, so

disappointed.

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Uh, but yes, it's just, was fascinating watching a Liverpool game in Manchester.

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The first time I'd done that.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and they actually showed the game which was also quite impressive

so You know these these things also always awesome So tell us how did you get it?

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Forgive me if you're watching the video ladies gentlemen I'm I've got my cup of tea in my

hand which I'm drinking my butter mint tea How did you get into?

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Retention marketing.

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What was the story there?

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It's always because of need.

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Usually people share their origin story and it goes something along like, I have this

problem and I want to solve it, so now I'm solving it for other people.

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For me, it's more like a story of pain where I'm an ex-startup founder, among others, and

I've done the academic circle, lecturing, and I'm an ex-military.

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But when I was in the startup world,

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I realized that we were growing, but acquisition was what was driving that growth, but not

retention.

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And eventually the startup collapsed and I realized that we should have maintained the

customers that we got.

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And because of that, when I transitioned from being the offer owner, the startup owner,

and become a service provider, I realized that this is a great place to get started.

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Email, SMS, retention, subscriptions, et cetera.

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Something I was already familiar with.

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I've made a ton of mistakes on.

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I tried to fix it and eventually in the last seven years in the Ecom world, I've kind of

powered through the ranks of the retention industry.

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and some people consider me, you know, they call me a wizard, an artist or like the best.

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So I'll take anything they, they share me with, but I feel pretty comfortable in this

world.

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And I love digging into data and discovering patterns and innovating, connecting different

services and different

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solutions in unexpected ways in order to get an edge over the competition.

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That's really good.

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I remember, it would have been 2012, 2013, somewhere in there.

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So a little while ago, we were running an econ business that sold beauty products at the

time, right?

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And a friend of mine drew this sort of little triangle on a piece of paper.

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And in one corner, he put price.

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In another corner, he put quality.

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And in the other corner, he put service, right?

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So you got price quality and service.

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And he said to me, Matt, you can only have two.

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You can't have all three.

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In other words, you can't have a company that is really driving down, you know, give him

really good prices, low prices to a quality product and deliver great customer service.

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But you know, the math don't work.

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And so

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When we were doing the beauty company at the time, we were a quality product at a low

price.

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So our customer service was not great.

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Um, and so you had to go and get a lot of new customers, right?

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New customer acquisition was a big deal.

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Um, and I remember 20, 23rd, uh, 2012, I deliberately, after looking at that little

triangle, Thomas, I, I said, no, we need to shift.

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We need to move from a sort of a low price, high quality product model to a.

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a quality product, still keep the quality product, but deliver quality service, which

means our prices had to go up to be able to pay for the, you know, the increase in

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customer service that we were about to do.

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So you know what, we did this.

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And I wish I could sit here and say that the day that I did that, my business boomed,

because it didn't at all.

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Our sales fell for the first few months.

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Where I noticed it was the following year was we grew by over 20 % and we grew so quickly

because we started to get a lot of returning customers.

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And it took a little while for the returning customers to get used to the, or for

customers to get used to this higher quality of customer service that we were trying to

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give and experience and so on and so forth.

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And then we got the returning customers back.

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So I am a big, big fan of...

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this idea of retention marketing in terms of, I know new customer acquisition is

important.

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It's not the topic of today's podcast, but I'm a massive fan of retention marketing.

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I'm a massive fan of getting customers coming back time and time again to buy, because it

really helped us out, you know.

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Absolutely.

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And something that I hear over and over again from brand operators is that they want

somebody to fix their retention leaky bucket.

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Yeah.

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That's how they call it, know, leaky retention, leaky bucket.

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And the point is that you spend all this money, all this effort to acquire a customer.

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So you have a CAC of, you know, I don't know, 80, 90, $150, depending on what you're

selling.

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And in order for most businesses to make their money back and break even, they need to

have each customer to buy multiple times.

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Yeah.

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So that's why subscription is very important and retention is very important because it

unlocks the, the true LTV of the brand.

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Right.

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And, and when the competition is so fierce, you need to be able to afford higher CAC to

get customers that other brands can't afford to pay.

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So that's why it's very important to focus on retention.

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and I'm, and I'm seeing not, not many brands really pay attention to what's happening,

post customer acquisition.

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They feel that.

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Their job is done once they get the customer because you know what with media buying the

feedback is instant.

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It's daily.

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It's momentary.

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You you know exactly how they had performed but with retention you have to wait for a

month to see if the person is going to buy again.

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So it's going to you don't have real time retention.

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You need to wait for you know 28 30 plus days and that is a low really slow feedback loop.

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So that's why I would like

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for brands to focus on retention and think of the first two weeks post-purchase as a part

of the product, not as an afterthought.

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It needs to complement the product, the experience, the ads, the website, and to educate

the first-time buyer so they can actually stop having objections, regrets.

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to be educated about the product, how it works, and to make it a part of the lifestyle.

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yeah, retention is not an afterthought.

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It should be a part of the product itself.

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Well, absolutely.

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And I think it should be a big part of your marketing spend as well.

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I don't think it's just something that you go, we'll just send emails and it's fine.

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I think you have to actually allocate budget because you know, the leaky bucket analogy,

there's a great phrase which I've used a lot recently is you don't fix a leak in bucket by

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adding more water, right?

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And you just don't.

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And so it never sort of fixes it.

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And I guess the other...

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true ism about e-commerce is those with the deepest pockets win the most customers, right?

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So you, if you can, if you've got great customer retention, it means you can go higher on

the cat, which means your new customer acquisition, the whole engine gets fed.

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Yeah, you can reinvest the money back into growth if that's your goal.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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But you're right about retention marketing.

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But what you do retention wise, it's not like I can do it now and A B test it today.

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You have to, depending on your product and your product's lifecycle, you've got to play a

bit more of a long game, haven't you?

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So what have you, let's get into some tactics.

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Because I think, I mean, we can all agree with the principle.

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And if you can't agree that retention market is important after the conversation we've

just had, I'm not sure how much.

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how much more this podcast is gonna help you today.

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But it's one of those things where I think the majority of people go, yes, it's good.

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I get the leaking bucket analogy and I need to stop the leak.

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I appreciate that.

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What are some of the things that we should be thinking about, Thomas, here in 2025 that

maybe we're not?

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Are we still missing?

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the fundamentals or are other things that we should be looking at because we've got those

down.

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When it comes to retention, yes, we are absolutely missing the plot on the fundamentals.

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It is a disaster, more often than not.

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It's quite easy to go and check on Shopify what your retention looks like.

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now we have two different categories.

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have brands that have on one time purchases and subscriptions and brands that go

subscription only.

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For me, I specialize in subscription only.

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And I think that's the smartest thing to do to create a powerful subscription offer and to

prove to your customers that they need your product again and again, and remove any, any

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objections from their head.

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And the goal would be for them not to cancel while when you have one time products, the

goal is always to sell.

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as fast as possible and there are so many opportunities for you to pitch again in a

different way that makes sense.

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There's not enough time to educate.

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You need to think about the next order which you have to drive.

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So that's why a lot of subscription first models.

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But it all starts with the offer.

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A bad product, a bad offer with bad economics cannot be fixed with a retention system

because it's just the math is broken.

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It needs to be a product that makes sense and it's something that unlocks acquisition,

something that people really want, but also something that people will keep wanting.

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And usually there is a starter kit, there is a great offer, the upcoming offers also

matter.

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Because if let's say,

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there is an offer that includes a starter kit with a main product, a couple of freebies,

free stuff, and then the second order is just the product by itself and sometimes it's

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even more expensive than the first purchase.

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By contrast, you're not going to like the second order, or you might be tempted to get all

the freebies that were offered to you upfront and then cancel right away because you've

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just gained the system.

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But this is a customer where you've lost money as a brand.

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This makes sense for you to acquire this customer in the first place.

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You want the customers that will keep buying, break at least, break even, and then keep

buying.

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This is the profit is.

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So the offer is the number one thing that brands need to really start restructuring.

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I see a lot of plain offers done and all subscription optimized.

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Just slapping the button of subscribe and save is not a subscription offer.

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This is the laziest thing you can do.

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And honestly, if you try to acquire customers purely on lower prices, you're going to be

outspent by the competition.

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They're going to have a better offer, better retention.

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They're going to outspend you.

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You're done.

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So this is where we start.

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It's all about the offer to begin with.

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This is great.

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And this is very timely because actually we've been having conversations about one of our

sites which has a one time purchase on it, but it also has subscription options on there.

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it's interesting, isn't it, this whole idea.

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By the way, let me give a shout out if you are in the subscription business.

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SubSummit, are you going this year?

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Not really, I mean, being a father, I can't really go places.

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Yeah.

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But I want to.

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Yeah, well, it's a great show.

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And I know Paul Chambers is coming on and I know we've had Chris George on and he had very

similar philosophy to what you said Thomas and actually actual fact he almost talked me

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into just doing my supplement company on a subscription only model.

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Do I mean it's like, why would you want to do it any other way?

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Matt and is like, and I

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happened?

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He said he almost he almost turned you into a subscription based business what happened?

221

00:16:30,838 --> 00:16:35,971

Well, almost turned me into a subscription only based model.

222

00:16:35,971 --> 00:16:45,807

The way the supplement businesses were, we didn't look in at our purchases.

223

00:16:45,807 --> 00:16:48,048

Well, to be fair, let me just qualify.

224

00:16:48,048 --> 00:16:55,993

I would probably think about it more now because such a high percentage of our orders are

now subscription, right?

225

00:16:55,993 --> 00:16:57,492

So we've converted.

226

00:16:57,492 --> 00:17:01,244

a lot of our faithful customers into subscription customers.

227

00:17:02,605 --> 00:17:06,462

So I'm very keen to talk to you about offers and what works there.

228

00:17:06,462 --> 00:17:14,651

I'm also really keen to hear what you've got to say Thomas about because this again is

another conversation we've been having with our subscription customers with one time

229

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purchase clients, right?

230

00:17:18,073 --> 00:17:26,838

And I love my conversation I had recently with the guy, the founder from the razor

company, always completely gone, it'll come back to me.

231

00:17:26,838 --> 00:17:29,869

He deliberately didn't do subscription, which I thought was fascinating.

232

00:17:29,869 --> 00:17:31,640

That's definitely worth listening to.

233

00:17:33,641 --> 00:17:42,564

But the, we found with one-time purchases, it's really straightforward for me to do an

upsell, right?

234

00:17:43,445 --> 00:17:46,386

And increase the average order value.

235

00:17:46,386 --> 00:17:54,298

Where we've had a bit of an issue is trying to figure out how do we increase the average

order value on a subscription-based model?

236

00:17:54,298 --> 00:17:55,414

Do you see what I mean?

237

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So in other words, with supplements, you kind of go, right, well, I'll take my Omega-3,

I'll take my multivit, and I'll take my vitamin D.

238

00:18:03,036 --> 00:18:05,517

And that's it, I'll put the whole thing on autopilot.

239

00:18:05,517 --> 00:18:14,739

So I subscribe to a deodorant company, for example, and every two months they send me out

some deodorant, but that's it, it's a repeat purchase.

240

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And I think, I don't know how that deodorant company can get, can help me increase my

order value over time.

241

00:18:24,842 --> 00:18:26,483

other than putting its prices up.

242

00:18:26,483 --> 00:18:28,585

How does it get me to buy more stuff?

243

00:18:28,585 --> 00:18:35,941

So two things I want to dig into, how to increase average order value, but let's start

with the offer side of things.

244

00:18:35,941 --> 00:18:39,433

So you're talking about your first thing you've got to work on is the offer.

245

00:18:39,433 --> 00:18:43,206

And it can't just be subscribe and save because that's lazy, which I just think is

brilliant.

246

00:18:43,206 --> 00:18:45,818

I'm totally quoting you on that.

247

00:18:46,079 --> 00:18:48,570

What else, what sort of things should we be thinking about?

248

00:18:48,570 --> 00:18:51,112

What have you found work really well?

249

00:18:51,933 --> 00:18:58,601

Yeah, and there is a very interesting founder course coming out where I'm a guest.

250

00:18:58,685 --> 00:19:08,550

and it's been taught by the co-founder of Motif Digital, the agency I used to work for,

Jordan Menard.

251

00:19:08,550 --> 00:19:10,311

Shout out to Jordan, amazing guy.

252

00:19:10,311 --> 00:19:16,754

So he breaks down this entire subject in a course for the platform founder, if you want to

check it out.

253

00:19:16,754 --> 00:19:19,035

I'm a guest for like a module.

254

00:19:19,295 --> 00:19:23,057

But basically the whole point is to create something that...

255

00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:26,410

adds value to the lifestyle of the person.

256

00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:29,832

We don't buy a product just for the product itself.

257

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It supports a lifestyle.

258

00:19:31,303 --> 00:19:33,093

It supports our identity.

259

00:19:33,093 --> 00:19:38,356

So things that you can add that support the lifestyle of the person and who you want to

be.

260

00:19:38,456 --> 00:19:42,778

Number two, things that you can use with a product.

261

00:19:42,778 --> 00:19:44,259

Very straightforward example.

262

00:19:44,259 --> 00:19:46,100

You buy coffee, you need a cup.

263

00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:47,980

You need a frother or whisk.

264

00:19:47,980 --> 00:19:48,280

Right?

265

00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,262

So this is something that you will need.

266

00:19:51,262 --> 00:19:53,643

You were going to buy this anyway, or you had it at home.

267

00:19:53,643 --> 00:19:57,383

but now you have a branded version of it.

268

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And things that are branded, you show it to your friends.

269

00:20:00,483 --> 00:20:01,803

And this is marketing.

270

00:20:02,103 --> 00:20:04,123

You can take a picture of it.

271

00:20:04,183 --> 00:20:06,183

You know what you can't take a picture of?

272

00:20:06,443 --> 00:20:07,883

Things that are digital.

273

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It needs to be physical.

274

00:20:09,843 --> 00:20:20,823

So anything that can be added in a way where postage doesn't get inflated, you know the

price of posting doesn't get inflated, that can fit into a box as a starter kit, and you

275

00:20:20,823 --> 00:20:23,583

turn it into a beautiful starter kit, that's a great offer to

276

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get with.

277

00:20:24,424 --> 00:20:32,889

But I've seen the mistake a lot of brands make is they add too much value in the starter

kit.

278

00:20:32,889 --> 00:20:37,112

And by comparison, the second third order don't look so appealing anymore.

279

00:20:37,112 --> 00:20:41,815

What I alluded to earlier, they cancel because they want to get all the freebies.

280

00:20:41,815 --> 00:20:47,839

So what we've seen working really well is spacing out the freebies month over month.

281

00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:49,891

So they have something else to be excited about.

282

00:20:49,891 --> 00:20:53,483

And basically they gamify the experience.

283

00:20:53,483 --> 00:20:55,104

block the new freebies.

284

00:20:55,104 --> 00:20:56,445

It's a game.

285

00:20:56,445 --> 00:21:03,570

And if you add all sorts of fun activities, post-purchase, the whole thing becomes a game.

286

00:21:03,570 --> 00:21:04,971

It's who can be healthier.

287

00:21:04,971 --> 00:21:09,593

It's who can be more loyal, who can not break the streak.

288

00:21:09,593 --> 00:21:16,478

So you turn this whole thing into a fun lifestyle project, becoming a better self.

289

00:21:16,478 --> 00:21:18,140

And it all starts with the offer.

290

00:21:18,140 --> 00:21:21,982

But again, finally, the offer needs to be something that makes sense economically.

291

00:21:21,982 --> 00:21:23,405

So I'm not going to

292

00:21:23,405 --> 00:21:28,329

play CFO here, I'm not the person that runs the numbers for the offer.

293

00:21:28,329 --> 00:21:32,903

I'm a person that is participating in the process of designing the offer.

294

00:21:32,903 --> 00:21:37,667

But I don't know how to explain what makes most sense financially.

295

00:21:37,667 --> 00:21:46,494

What I know is once the offer is out, I know how to track the payback period and I know

how to maximize LTV after that.

296

00:21:46,494 --> 00:21:53,309

And the goal, just like Netflix is trying to push the retention point as close as

possible.

297

00:21:53,309 --> 00:22:03,186

the first episode meaning retention point is once the person is hooked now and will watch

the rest of the series no matter what they want to get you hooked as early as possible

298

00:22:03,186 --> 00:22:12,892

same thing for the payback period you want to push that payback period as close as

possible to the first purchase if you can be profitable the first purchase amazing but

299

00:22:12,892 --> 00:22:23,229

most brands are not so the goal is to make sure and this is a great site for for the AOV

question is to push AOV to push the stickiness of

300

00:22:23,229 --> 00:22:25,942

product and to get them to commit for longer.

301

00:22:26,404 --> 00:22:31,361

So yeah, let's back to you now, because if we start talking about AOV, I will never stop.

302

00:22:31,361 --> 00:22:33,594

And it's going to be a monologue.

303

00:22:33,594 --> 00:22:42,614

Well, I know we'll get into that in just a second, but I like what you say here because

what I'm understanding here, Thomas, and it makes total sense when you think about it is

304

00:22:42,614 --> 00:22:46,714

actually take your no brainer offer and space it out.

305

00:22:46,714 --> 00:22:52,234

So it's a no brainer offer for the first order, the second order, the third order, the

fourth order, and so on and forth.

306

00:22:52,954 --> 00:22:58,214

And bring those, just elongate that offer so it makes sense just to keep coming back.

307

00:22:58,214 --> 00:23:00,554

And obviously it's got to work for your economics.

308

00:23:01,268 --> 00:23:02,898

and you know, work that out.

309

00:23:02,898 --> 00:23:11,761

But I like it because like you say, most subscribed businesses are all about that first

offer to try and get you to sign up.

310

00:23:12,881 --> 00:23:21,043

And not so great at then keeping you, you know, giving you reasons to stay really is like,

I don't know.

311

00:23:22,464 --> 00:23:26,425

And so you do tend to leave, but I do get the point.

312

00:23:26,858 --> 00:23:30,860

I'm thinking, for example, about this deodorant company, actually they

313

00:23:30,860 --> 00:23:35,151

they gave you an offer at the start, but they've not really done anything since.

314

00:23:35,151 --> 00:23:38,352

And I've left it just cause it's on autopilot.

315

00:23:38,352 --> 00:23:40,733

Would I recommend them as a company?

316

00:23:40,773 --> 00:23:48,856

You start getting into really interesting existential questions all of a sudden because

of, well, actually in theory, they've still got my business.

317

00:23:48,856 --> 00:23:53,197

I've not stopped it yet, but I don't feel any brand loyalty to them, if that makes sense.

318

00:23:53,197 --> 00:23:55,778

I don't feel like they've done anything to...

319

00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:04,196

to stop me from churning if I find a better product or someone else woos me over here.

320

00:24:04,217 --> 00:24:17,780

And I think whilst at the moment it's convenient, it's not actually retaining my mind and

my soul other than it's just retaining my wallet because it's super convenient for right

321

00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:18,440

now.

322

00:24:19,143 --> 00:24:22,283

Yeah, you're saying that you're not a fan.

323

00:24:22,406 --> 00:24:25,616

You are just a buyer on auto.

324

00:24:26,358 --> 00:24:28,088

Yeah, I mean, I obviously like their product.

325

00:24:28,088 --> 00:24:30,179

I keep using it.

326

00:24:30,339 --> 00:24:33,310

And in some respects, I like what the company stands for.

327

00:24:33,310 --> 00:24:37,431

What I've not become is a lot, well, maybe I've not become a loyal fan.

328

00:24:37,431 --> 00:24:40,272

I've not shared anything out on social media.

329

00:24:40,272 --> 00:24:45,263

I've not gone and said, hey, you should buy this because it's awesome.

330

00:24:45,263 --> 00:24:49,674

They've not really done anything to sort of keep me as a customer.

331

00:24:49,674 --> 00:24:51,625

They don't really email me.

332

00:24:53,044 --> 00:24:57,122

It's sporadic as to whether they email me to let me know my orders coming out.

333

00:24:57,122 --> 00:24:59,805

It's just, it's just a bit rubbish really.

334

00:24:59,945 --> 00:25:02,754

But this is the reality.

335

00:25:02,754 --> 00:25:04,919

This is what most brands do.

336

00:25:05,077 --> 00:25:05,449

Mm.

337

00:25:05,449 --> 00:25:16,049

It's that's why they asked me to come in and build something, system, a proper system that

actually collects data, but actually pushes for an app.

338

00:25:16,049 --> 00:25:29,289

So all cross-sell that actually builds loyalty, uh, that educates the customer that gives

them a real reason to, to choose to stay subscribed and then to keep talking about the

339

00:25:29,289 --> 00:25:31,029

brand and bringing more people in.

340

00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:33,549

This is what retention systems do.

341

00:25:33,609 --> 00:25:35,455

Most brands don't email.

342

00:25:35,455 --> 00:25:39,257

don't email enough and they don't build that brand loyalty.

343

00:25:39,257 --> 00:25:45,440

And again, right now they could have your business and they do because as you said there's

no competition.

344

00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,323

But the moment somebody else comes on board and that has a better product they're done.

345

00:25:50,323 --> 00:25:54,944

So this business might be dying without them knowing.

346

00:25:54,944 --> 00:25:55,559

Yeah.

347

00:25:55,559 --> 00:25:58,212

just because it just hasn't happened yet.

348

00:25:58,393 --> 00:26:04,440

But wishing or hoping for a competitor not to arrive is not a strategy.

349

00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,544

It's not something the investors would really support.

350

00:26:08,625 --> 00:26:11,968

So yeah, you gotta be proactive, man.

351

00:26:12,406 --> 00:26:26,224

You really have, especially in the subscription space, because again, one of the things

that I've learned from certainly people like Chris George is that actually whatever it is

352

00:26:26,224 --> 00:26:31,787

now, we've got an average of, I can't remember the number, so let's just pick a random

number.

353

00:26:31,787 --> 00:26:34,518

We've got a typical average of say 20 subscriptions.

354

00:26:34,518 --> 00:26:39,001

We subscribe to Netflix, to Disney, to Sky Sports, and whatever it is, right?

355

00:26:39,001 --> 00:26:41,182

So we've got all these different subscriptions.

356

00:26:41,334 --> 00:26:44,255

We've now got to the point where we don't want any more subscriptions.

357

00:26:44,255 --> 00:26:46,937

So to take on a new one, we have to cancel an old one.

358

00:26:46,937 --> 00:26:49,197

It's kind of a mindset that we've fallen in.

359

00:26:49,358 --> 00:26:57,021

And so the ones that we cancel tend to be the ones that where we just don't have, like you

said, we've not had a reason to stay subscribed.

360

00:26:57,021 --> 00:26:59,298

There's no sort of real brand loyalty.

361

00:26:59,298 --> 00:27:07,556

It's just like, well, I'm now prepared to go through the inconvenience of canceling the

subscription because I no longer want you and I want this one over here more.

362

00:27:07,556 --> 00:27:08,448

And it doesn't...

363

00:27:08,448 --> 00:27:10,819

And it's not even like Netflix competing with Disney.

364

00:27:10,819 --> 00:27:19,451

It's like Netflix competing with my deodorant company all of a sudden, because I've just

maxed out on all my subscriptions, which makes competition, I think, a little bit more

365

00:27:19,451 --> 00:27:20,552

interesting.

366

00:27:20,552 --> 00:27:24,426

so I'm intrigued by this.

367

00:27:24,426 --> 00:27:30,032

And I'm intrigued by these sort of changes in this model and why what you're saying is

becoming more and more important.

368

00:27:32,051 --> 00:27:44,826

What you're saying between the lines, what I'm reading is that the product itself plays as

an important role as the brand around the product.

369

00:27:45,067 --> 00:27:46,527

Here's an example.

370

00:27:47,048 --> 00:27:49,020

You have a dildo, right?

371

00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:49,929

But...

372

00:27:50,095 --> 00:27:51,246

Will you stop using it?

373

00:27:51,246 --> 00:27:53,267

Will you stop using a deodorant overall?

374

00:27:53,267 --> 00:27:54,667

Probably not.

375

00:27:55,047 --> 00:27:55,988

Coffee.

376

00:27:55,988 --> 00:27:59,129

People that drink coffee will never stop drinking coffee.

377

00:27:59,129 --> 00:28:06,072

People that take sleeping pills, they will never stop taking sleeping pills or they will

find something that helps them sleep.

378

00:28:06,193 --> 00:28:13,636

All we do is basically try to fulfill our existing needs with a better product.

379

00:28:13,636 --> 00:28:19,979

So if somebody comes along with a better product, better brand, more fun experience and

does what you

380

00:28:19,979 --> 00:28:25,182

want to get better and healthier, you will get it.

381

00:28:25,243 --> 00:28:34,459

You might pay the premium, but you're switching from your existing need, a solution to

your existing need, to a better solution.

382

00:28:34,459 --> 00:28:38,752

Brands cannot manufacture needs out of thin air.

383

00:28:38,752 --> 00:28:40,973

They tap into existing needs.

384

00:28:40,973 --> 00:28:47,878

So if something is a luxury in hard times, you might cancel it just because it's an extra.

385

00:28:47,878 --> 00:28:48,458

Right?

386

00:28:48,458 --> 00:28:49,959

So the product

387

00:28:49,959 --> 00:28:59,044

the industry you're in plays an important role in retention, know, as much as the quality

of your offer and everything we're talking about.

388

00:28:59,044 --> 00:29:07,690

So sometimes you might have the perfect retention system, the perfect offer, perfect

product, ecological, know, cheap, convenient.

389

00:29:07,690 --> 00:29:12,892

But if it's a luxury, somebody might cancel this first when the times get hard.

390

00:29:13,250 --> 00:29:15,230

Yeah, yeah, it's so true.

391

00:29:15,230 --> 00:29:16,170

So true.

392

00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:18,130

So Thomas, let's talk about AOV.

393

00:29:18,130 --> 00:29:22,790

Actually, before we do, normally I save this to the end, but it's in my head right now.

394

00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:31,030

If you're regular to the show, you'll know, usually not every show, because quite often

I'll forget, but I've remembered today, I asked my guests for a question.

395

00:29:31,030 --> 00:29:35,010

And this is quite an interesting point of the show to ask for said question.

396

00:29:35,250 --> 00:29:39,870

So Thomas, you said to me at the start of the recording, you're like, I've got my

question, I know what it is.

397

00:29:39,870 --> 00:29:40,730

Do you want to know what it is?

398

00:29:40,730 --> 00:29:42,432

I'm like, no, tell me in the show.

399

00:29:42,432 --> 00:29:45,940

So now is your time to give me your question.

400

00:29:46,547 --> 00:29:52,102

Hello ladies and gentlemen, so Matt wants me to ask a question.

401

00:29:52,203 --> 00:29:58,488

So Matt, you have recorded hundreds of...

402

00:29:58,885 --> 00:30:00,245

of interviews.

403

00:30:00,245 --> 00:30:09,908

You have spoken with hundreds of interesting people that are experts and they're amazing

at what they do and they have audiences and they work with amazing brands.

404

00:30:09,908 --> 00:30:16,390

You are not a content creator to me, you are a network provider.

405

00:30:16,570 --> 00:30:24,232

So how do you think about all this asset that you've built, the network, the side product

of your show?

406

00:30:24,232 --> 00:30:26,873

How do you think about it and what are your plans?

407

00:30:28,918 --> 00:30:30,579

This is a great question.

408

00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:31,921

Very good question.

409

00:30:31,921 --> 00:30:35,574

In fact, I was talking to, I don't know, do you know Peter Murphy Lewis?

410

00:30:35,574 --> 00:30:36,164

Do you know him?

411

00:30:36,164 --> 00:30:37,405

Strategic Pete?

412

00:30:37,405 --> 00:30:40,067

He's been on the show before actually.

413

00:30:40,148 --> 00:30:44,861

And, I don't know, well, he does play musical instruments.

414

00:30:44,861 --> 00:30:46,162

He's also on the TV a lot.

415

00:30:46,162 --> 00:30:50,355

And he's, anyway, he's a marketing guy.

416

00:30:50,596 --> 00:30:53,439

Anyway, I was talking to him about this very question.

417

00:30:53,439 --> 00:30:57,682

So today, this afternoon in fact, it was morning for him, afternoon for me.

418

00:30:57,682 --> 00:30:59,823

And so I will answer that question.

419

00:30:59,823 --> 00:31:01,634

It will be on my social media channels.

420

00:31:01,634 --> 00:31:02,764

Come find me.

421

00:31:02,764 --> 00:31:07,506

Let us find me on LinkedIn at Matt Edmundson, or you can find me on Instagram at Matt

Edmundson.

422

00:31:07,506 --> 00:31:11,078

I really need to get better at the old Instagram thing, but I'm pretty active on the old

LinkedIn.

423

00:31:11,078 --> 00:31:13,069

So come find me there and you'll find the answer to that question.

424

00:31:13,069 --> 00:31:14,529

Thomas, thank you for that question.

425

00:31:14,529 --> 00:31:16,230

I thought it was a great question.

426

00:31:16,810 --> 00:31:18,171

So let's get back into it.

427

00:31:18,171 --> 00:31:18,901

AOV.

428

00:31:18,901 --> 00:31:26,114

How do I, if I'm a business which is managing my attention through subscriptions.

429

00:31:26,183 --> 00:31:29,847

which I appreciate is one specific route to do retention.

430

00:31:30,028 --> 00:31:33,123

And obviously a very sensible one.

431

00:31:33,123 --> 00:31:38,299

mean, my experience is this has been great for retention marketing is introducing the

subscription.

432

00:31:38,721 --> 00:31:39,721

What?

433

00:31:41,558 --> 00:31:43,059

How do I increase average order value?

434

00:31:43,059 --> 00:31:46,039

Because this for me is a big thing, right?

435

00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,821

Subscription has its advantages.

436

00:31:48,901 --> 00:31:56,764

One of its key downsides, it seems to me, is the ability to easily increase average order

value with upsells and cross-sells and things like that when someone's going through

437

00:31:56,764 --> 00:31:57,744

checkout.

438

00:31:57,764 --> 00:31:58,815

What are your thoughts on this?

439

00:31:58,815 --> 00:32:02,836

Because I have my pen, I have my paper, and I'm very keen to hear.

440

00:32:03,369 --> 00:32:08,669

Is it okay to also shout out a few companies that can make this easier?

441

00:32:08,869 --> 00:32:12,369

I'm not getting plagued by them, I'm a big fan.

442

00:32:13,255 --> 00:32:19,068

To me, it's actually quite easy to get these upsells and cross-sells and increase AOV.

443

00:32:19,068 --> 00:32:27,051

So I'm kind of surprised about like the number of businesses that struggle with this,

because to me, it should be more straightforward.

444

00:32:27,112 --> 00:32:39,377

One thing that a lot of brands do, and I support this, is during checkout or before

checkout, you actually push for more of the product they're about to purchase.

445

00:32:39,377 --> 00:32:43,189

So the good old upsell, you take 30 servings, now get 60.

446

00:32:43,189 --> 00:32:45,420

the servings and here's the deal.

447

00:32:45,481 --> 00:32:48,963

Or you cross-sell something that fits well with the product.

448

00:32:48,963 --> 00:32:59,970

You know on the back end which product goes well with which one from your portfolio and

you create rules where you recommend this product when something is in the cart.

449

00:32:59,970 --> 00:33:02,142

So you just need to look into the analytics.

450

00:33:02,142 --> 00:33:10,257

Now by now we're talking about once they've started their subscription, the way that I

approach this is in two phases.

451

00:33:10,257 --> 00:33:13,129

Phase number one, they haven't received the product yet.

452

00:33:13,129 --> 00:33:16,581

see the first order and they're anxious.

453

00:33:16,581 --> 00:33:17,902

Is it a good purchase?

454

00:33:17,902 --> 00:33:18,843

They're skeptical.

455

00:33:18,843 --> 00:33:20,414

Is it the right brand?

456

00:33:20,414 --> 00:33:21,685

Is this good value for money?

457

00:33:21,685 --> 00:33:32,432

So this is the time to get them to alleviate this pain and to get them to talk about

themselves and reveal their needs because this is going to be the way we personalize their

458

00:33:32,432 --> 00:33:33,313

experience later.

459

00:33:33,313 --> 00:33:41,498

So I'm always asking right away, right after purchase, send them an email asking for

questions, for a few answers in a survey.

460

00:33:41,498 --> 00:33:43,391

And I use these answers

461

00:33:43,391 --> 00:33:46,071

personalize their experience later.

462

00:33:46,071 --> 00:33:57,391

So armed with these questions, once the product is there, I make sure they share their

enthusiasm in a Facebook group or in an ad, which makes the ad even more profitable

463

00:33:57,391 --> 00:34:00,551

because it has sub-social proof.

464

00:34:00,651 --> 00:34:02,751

And now these people, they're excited.

465

00:34:02,751 --> 00:34:06,651

You've done the right thing up to the delivery point, and now they're excited.

466

00:34:06,651 --> 00:34:10,531

But it's not the right time to upsell them because they haven't used the product.

467

00:34:10,531 --> 00:34:12,961

They need to feel confident about the product.

468

00:34:12,961 --> 00:34:13,911

first.

469

00:34:14,032 --> 00:34:25,140

The way that I achieve this with my brands is I do what I have invented this method which

is called bite-sized premium master classes.

470

00:34:25,371 --> 00:34:34,105

A lot of brands do the simple trick like send an email with a lot of information or send

an email with a blog post.

471

00:34:34,105 --> 00:34:37,207

And they believe that the education of the product is done.

472

00:34:37,207 --> 00:34:38,717

People don't consume blog posts.

473

00:34:38,717 --> 00:34:40,588

They don't read long emails.

474

00:34:40,588 --> 00:34:42,349

They need bite sized information.

475

00:34:42,349 --> 00:34:53,934

So I take this existing information and turn it into master classes, usually on Typeform,

shout out to Typeform, where they see a few words in each slide with visuals and they

476

00:34:53,934 --> 00:34:55,315

click next and they

477

00:34:55,315 --> 00:35:01,960

get spoon-fed, know, small bits and pieces of the education we want them to get.

478

00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:12,227

And they start realizing that the product can be a part of their lifestyle, how it helps

them achieve the long-term goals, the time span for them to feel the full effects of the

479

00:35:12,227 --> 00:35:14,248

product, etc.

480

00:35:14,268 --> 00:35:19,632

At the end of each masterclass, that's where the magic happens.

481

00:35:19,632 --> 00:35:20,973

I upsell them.

482

00:35:21,539 --> 00:35:31,800

more of their existing product if it makes sense or if I know what their initial purchase

is and collect the right information post purchase, I offer them something that

483

00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,492

complements the product.

484

00:35:33,577 --> 00:35:45,677

And usually people that don't participate in these master classes, they will get a default

option based on what I know historically from my customers and their journey.

485

00:35:45,757 --> 00:35:58,557

But what I've seen, Matt, is that 30, 33 % of people that complete at least one master

class, they take the upsell or cross sell, which is huge.

486

00:35:58,997 --> 00:36:03,751

So I've basically turned knowledge and education into a

487

00:36:03,751 --> 00:36:08,675

event that has day one, day two, day three, and then there is a graduation.

488

00:36:08,675 --> 00:36:17,160

And the graduation includes a bundle of badges, downloadables, the next freebie, and a

discount.

489

00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:23,785

And people choose what they want, and eventually they get multiple reminders and a fun

system that doesn't feel pushy.

490

00:36:23,785 --> 00:36:27,657

And again, a lot of them get the absolute cross-salt.

491

00:36:27,657 --> 00:36:33,451

So in fact, that's why once I started implementing this system in businesses, you see that

the

492

00:36:33,451 --> 00:36:38,464

upsell, the take of the upsell product increases in revenue more and more.

493

00:36:38,464 --> 00:36:42,677

So it stocks up and these people have far superior retention.

494

00:36:42,977 --> 00:36:44,979

So this is one of the things that I do.

495

00:36:44,979 --> 00:36:56,536

The second opportunity after they complete the master class and a week after the product,

I check in with them again, send them to a good old type form and I asked them about their

496

00:36:56,536 --> 00:36:57,867

three main objections.

497

00:36:57,867 --> 00:36:59,669

I want to see how well they're doing.

498

00:36:59,669 --> 00:37:03,871

I asked them if they feel an early impact in their well-being.

499

00:37:03,971 --> 00:37:06,523

or whatever the product is trying to achieve.

500

00:37:06,523 --> 00:37:12,957

And I also ask them a question that will qualify them for a cross-sell.

501

00:37:12,957 --> 00:37:17,841

For example, let's say I offer a product that boosts your brain.

502

00:37:17,841 --> 00:37:19,902

It makes you more productive, more focused.

503

00:37:19,902 --> 00:37:25,326

But I also offer products that helps you sleep better, products for your gut, et cetera.

504

00:37:25,326 --> 00:37:33,791

I will ask a question that will help understand if the right next pitch is the sleep.

505

00:37:33,883 --> 00:37:36,423

or the gut product or whatnot.

506

00:37:36,843 --> 00:37:39,143

But I will not ask, hey, would you like this product?

507

00:37:39,143 --> 00:37:44,043

I will ask them a question that reveals the problem if they have another problem.

508

00:37:44,043 --> 00:37:49,963

And then we follow up with a sequence that pushes what they already told us.

509

00:37:49,963 --> 00:37:56,119

So now it's a seamless promotion that is true to who they are and what they struggle with.

510

00:37:56,119 --> 00:37:56,701

Yep.

511

00:37:56,701 --> 00:38:06,536

Finally, before the first reveal, I will basically do the raise your hand kind of sequence

where I will show what the offer is.

512

00:38:06,536 --> 00:38:08,881

It's going to be usually a bundle of multiple products.

513

00:38:08,881 --> 00:38:17,110

It's going to be more expensive or it's going to be the product they bought, six months

worth of stock or a year worth of stock.

514

00:38:17,291 --> 00:38:20,052

And initially we'll send it to every customer.

515

00:38:20,052 --> 00:38:26,635

Later, as I get data, I will send it only to people that have been tagged as likely to

stay on board and not

516

00:38:26,635 --> 00:38:27,736

churn, right?

517

00:38:27,736 --> 00:38:31,618

If you're likely to churn, it doesn't make sense for you to buy a bigger bundle.

518

00:38:31,618 --> 00:38:35,201

Instead, you're to get an offer like a down sell so you don't churn.

519

00:38:35,201 --> 00:38:37,192

But initially, I will send this to everyone.

520

00:38:37,192 --> 00:38:44,767

So a bundle that upsells you and locks you in for a longer period of time, or a bundle

with more products so you can get the holistic experience.

521

00:38:44,767 --> 00:38:48,089

And these people, like the customers, eat them up.

522

00:38:48,089 --> 00:38:53,893

They love these products and these offers because they make sense in terms of where they

are.

523

00:38:53,893 --> 00:38:56,615

And we personalize the journey based on the signal.

524

00:38:56,615 --> 00:38:57,815

they gave us.

525

00:38:57,876 --> 00:39:06,362

And as you can imagine, this cannot happen unless you send a lot of email, but the right

type of email, so you can collect all these signals.

526

00:39:06,362 --> 00:39:11,426

So taking a step back, brands don't send enough email.

527

00:39:11,426 --> 00:39:15,268

They don't communicate with the customers enough.

528

00:39:15,308 --> 00:39:17,310

That is a big takeaway.

529

00:39:17,310 --> 00:39:21,052

And if you're sending three or four emails post purchase,

530

00:39:22,171 --> 00:39:23,512

You're doing it all wrong.

531

00:39:23,512 --> 00:39:29,147

Sorry to say, but you are leaving so much on the table.

532

00:39:30,047 --> 00:39:35,092

Retention can go much, much higher and cross cells and up cells and LTV.

533

00:39:35,488 --> 00:39:37,099

Yeah, that's supreme.

534

00:39:37,099 --> 00:39:46,443

Because actually, a lot of what you've talked about there, Thomas works in subscription,

but actually, it would also work in a one time purchase deal.

535

00:39:47,804 --> 00:39:58,648

I love what you said right at the start, excuse me, where, and I've not heard many people

talk about it for a long time, it used to be this real buzz topic, but it sort of seems to

536

00:39:58,648 --> 00:40:00,149

have died a little bit.

537

00:40:00,749 --> 00:40:02,242

And that's the the

538

00:40:02,242 --> 00:40:06,742

the period between a customer clicking by now and the customer receiving their product.

539

00:40:06,742 --> 00:40:08,802

There's always a period of time.

540

00:40:08,862 --> 00:40:11,182

And in the UK, that might be one or two days.

541

00:40:11,182 --> 00:40:15,382

It might be three or four, depending on when it was ordered and when it was sold, when it

was delivered.

542

00:40:15,422 --> 00:40:17,242

In the States, it may be more, do you know what mean?

543

00:40:17,242 --> 00:40:19,142

It depending on the size of your country.

544

00:40:19,282 --> 00:40:25,042

So you do have this thing where there is this anticipation.

545

00:40:25,042 --> 00:40:28,342

So in my hand, shout out to Tom's Studio.

546

00:40:28,462 --> 00:40:30,442

I really like Tom's Studio's pens.

547

00:40:30,442 --> 00:40:31,418

I have a...

548

00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:34,681

fountain pen in my hand where I write my notes with.

549

00:40:34,681 --> 00:40:36,132

I just really like their pens, right?

550

00:40:36,132 --> 00:40:42,026

And I ordered this pen a couple days ago, because I wanted one for my office.

551

00:40:42,307 --> 00:40:46,330

And it arrived next day, but it was delivered to my neighbor.

552

00:40:46,330 --> 00:40:55,098

And I thought, isn't it's just a bit, I really like their stuff and their packaging and

their ethos.

553

00:40:55,098 --> 00:41:00,872

you know, I do, I am a bit of loyal fan of Tom Studios, but I'm just a little bit

554

00:41:00,872 --> 00:41:03,864

Little bit disappointed Tom Studios if you're listening.

555

00:41:03,864 --> 00:41:15,552

There's been no email and and just To what Thomas has said you could have sent me an email

going Your fountain pens on the way Matt this this and sent me two emails the same day

556

00:41:15,552 --> 00:41:23,538

that up You know one email the day I purchased an email the day after going This is how to

write with a fountain pen because it does require something a little bit different This is

557

00:41:23,538 --> 00:41:26,490

how you clean and maintain your fountain pen watch this video.

558

00:41:26,490 --> 00:41:28,561

Give me some nice quirky graphics

559

00:41:29,154 --> 00:41:37,034

By the way, if you draw something or write some poetry with it, take a photo and tag us

with it on social media, do you know what mean?

560

00:41:37,034 --> 00:41:41,114

Those kind of things, they just haven't happened.

561

00:41:41,254 --> 00:41:49,854

And I get it because it's a small company, I guess there's like a handful of people trying

to do everything and you can only do so much.

562

00:41:49,974 --> 00:41:53,758

But this idea of sending three or four post purchase emails.

563

00:41:53,758 --> 00:41:59,603

especially in that time where I'm waiting for the product and you can turn my fear.

564

00:41:59,603 --> 00:42:05,668

I loved how you talked about how you turn their fear or their anxiety into excitement.

565

00:42:05,668 --> 00:42:09,371

That was what I wrote in my notes, turn their anxiety into excitement.

566

00:42:09,411 --> 00:42:10,652

I love that.

567

00:42:10,652 --> 00:42:14,175

And I think it's just a shame we're not doing that.

568

00:42:14,315 --> 00:42:19,039

you join me at the moment and any more than we actually are.

569

00:42:19,380 --> 00:42:22,762

And I think even just doing that, you're going to have some massive wins.

570

00:42:23,325 --> 00:42:27,108

Yeah, and I really want to share this analogy.

571

00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:31,632

A lot of brands will say, yeah, but you know, people don't read emails.

572

00:42:31,733 --> 00:42:36,757

And you know, all these the old spiel about email is dead for the last 20 years.

573

00:42:37,558 --> 00:42:40,600

But email will go to space.

574

00:42:41,021 --> 00:42:46,366

But we're still going to use the spoon because it's a proven tool.

575

00:42:46,366 --> 00:42:48,928

It's been there for for eons.

576

00:42:49,571 --> 00:42:51,282

And the same thing for email.

577

00:42:51,282 --> 00:42:57,364

We might still send email to people when we go to space because it's the most reliable

tool.

578

00:42:57,364 --> 00:42:59,045

We will never stop using email.

579

00:42:59,045 --> 00:43:06,428

So if brands are afraid of sending email, like would you be afraid of like eating with a

spoon?

580

00:43:06,428 --> 00:43:07,749

It's a proven tool.

581

00:43:07,749 --> 00:43:08,929

Just use it.

582

00:43:09,521 --> 00:43:10,582

yeah, very much so.

583

00:43:10,582 --> 00:43:17,469

one more thing that a lot of brands are actually missing out on and actually two things.

584

00:43:17,469 --> 00:43:20,812

Number one, meet the customer where they are.

585

00:43:20,812 --> 00:43:22,863

And number two, tap into their network.

586

00:43:22,863 --> 00:43:25,876

You know, has to do with the question that I asked you about the network.

587

00:43:25,876 --> 00:43:28,699

Number one, meet the customer where they are.

588

00:43:28,699 --> 00:43:30,700

What makes most sense is...

589

00:43:31,375 --> 00:43:38,769

If you bring customers from Facebook, from Meta, build a Facebook group and put these

people in there.

590

00:43:38,769 --> 00:43:42,950

You will generate a lot of UGC, a lot of social proof.

591

00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:51,604

They will do the selling for you because if there are a hundred thousand people on the

Facebook group that love the product, you might think these people know something that I

592

00:43:51,604 --> 00:43:52,025

don't.

593

00:43:52,025 --> 00:43:55,780

You know, I didn't get the effects of the product fast, but these people did.

594

00:43:55,780 --> 00:43:57,397

So I'm going to stick around.

595

00:43:57,397 --> 00:44:01,259

So you got a, a never growing cell machine.

596

00:44:01,259 --> 00:44:04,839

the Facebook group, you know, so meet these people where they are.

597

00:44:04,839 --> 00:44:12,559

But also if you're talking to a younger audience and they found you on a mobile phone,

then create an app.

598

00:44:12,559 --> 00:44:21,299

Use a company like Fuego to create an app and basically mirror the website and add

additional features exclusive for the app.

599

00:44:21,299 --> 00:44:26,759

Now these people shop and they do things around your brand in their natural environment.

600

00:44:26,759 --> 00:44:30,119

But then also make sure that people bring friends.

601

00:44:30,119 --> 00:44:31,299

We use a referral

602

00:44:31,299 --> 00:44:35,001

because it's very easy and it just does the thing.

603

00:44:35,682 --> 00:44:38,224

allow people to talk about your product.

604

00:44:38,224 --> 00:44:44,688

Like you talked to me on this podcast and to a lot of people about your pen, right?

605

00:44:44,688 --> 00:44:56,276

If the pen company had sent like a referral email, you probably would have taken on like,

know, whatever the deal is and talked about it and then profit from it as well.

606

00:44:56,276 --> 00:44:58,307

We don't do these things for the profit.

607

00:44:58,307 --> 00:45:01,119

We do it to recommend good products to

608

00:45:01,119 --> 00:45:02,620

friends and family, right?

609

00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:07,303

So tapping into this, it's just additional marketing that costs you nothing.

610

00:45:07,303 --> 00:45:09,405

You already paid to acquire this customer.

611

00:45:09,405 --> 00:45:17,810

So why not meet people where they are, create this community that is basically free

marketing for you and tap into the network.

612

00:45:17,810 --> 00:45:23,214

These are basic things for me that a lot of brands just haven't tapped into.

613

00:45:23,214 --> 00:45:25,635

So just shout out to these amazing companies.

614

00:45:25,635 --> 00:45:31,019

And, you know, these are like some quick trips, quick tips that

615

00:45:31,019 --> 00:45:32,896

for retention that I want to share.

616

00:45:32,896 --> 00:45:33,626

Yeah, no, it's cool.

617

00:45:33,626 --> 00:45:35,687

And I'm glad you mentioned referral candy.

618

00:45:35,687 --> 00:45:38,048

Raoul has been on the podcast before.

619

00:45:38,729 --> 00:45:39,939

Sorry, well, I kicked my bin.

620

00:45:39,939 --> 00:45:44,511

Raoul's been on the podcast before and do go check out that episode.

621

00:45:44,511 --> 00:45:48,493

Shout out to what those guys are doing there, referral candy, which is great.

622

00:45:48,693 --> 00:45:50,794

I'm intrigued.

623

00:45:50,794 --> 00:46:00,681

The one thing you said, which slightly surprised me, was the fact you used type form to do

these sort of mini master classes.

624

00:46:00,681 --> 00:46:03,936

for 10 years now.

625

00:46:03,936 --> 00:46:10,469

Yeah, yeah, and as soon as you said it, I could see it in my head and I thought that's

really clever.

626

00:46:10,469 --> 00:46:13,710

I would not have thought to have done that with Typeform.

627

00:46:14,670 --> 00:46:20,272

But you know, Typeform's got good APIs and you can integrate it with all kinds of things

now, can't you, and collect that customer data.

628

00:46:21,173 --> 00:46:26,075

And I like how you're using Typeform to pre-qualify.

629

00:46:26,986 --> 00:46:33,158

So for example, know, on a scale of one to 10, how well are you sleeping?

630

00:46:33,708 --> 00:46:37,760

could be one of the questions that we ask, because we have a sleep supplement, for

example.

631

00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,631

And you kind of go, these guys are not sleeping that well.

632

00:46:40,631 --> 00:46:46,233

So I can put them on a sequence which talks about how you can use nutrition to sleep

better, right?

633

00:46:46,233 --> 00:46:51,105

So it's a really, it makes a lot of sense to me what you said.

634

00:46:51,105 --> 00:46:54,626

And I can see why you like it as much as you do, Thomas.

635

00:46:54,767 --> 00:46:57,888

And thank you.

636

00:46:57,888 --> 00:47:00,813

Thank you for sharing that and bringing that value.

637

00:47:00,813 --> 00:47:02,610

I've genuinely enjoyed it.

638

00:47:02,982 --> 00:47:08,505

If people want to find out more about you, maybe connect with you, ask them, maybe they've

got some more questions.

639

00:47:08,505 --> 00:47:13,188

Maybe they even want to talk to you about hiring you and getting your help.

640

00:47:13,648 --> 00:47:21,052

Or the course that you mentioned, you mentioned a friend's course, but I don't remember

you mentioning what it's called or where to find it.

641

00:47:21,653 --> 00:47:22,463

Now's your time.

642

00:47:22,463 --> 00:47:24,094

Share all that information.

643

00:47:25,037 --> 00:47:26,178

Sure.

644

00:47:26,358 --> 00:47:31,621

the best way for people to find out about me and talk with me is through LinkedIn, Thomas

Lalas.

645

00:47:31,641 --> 00:47:39,076

I have created a consultancy firm called The Art of Ecomm I'm still building websites, as

we speak, etc.

646

00:47:39,076 --> 00:47:42,508

So I wouldn't recommend people to go to my website, it looks ugly.

647

00:47:43,188 --> 00:47:47,871

And the course, yeah, under construction.

648

00:47:48,732 --> 00:47:49,563

Optimizing.

649

00:47:49,563 --> 00:47:51,727

my sites are still under construction.

650

00:47:52,455 --> 00:47:57,648

Yeah, and the course that I talked about, the platform is called Foundr.

651

00:47:57,648 --> 00:48:00,465

It's the word founder, but without the E.

652

00:48:00,465 --> 00:48:06,192

It used to be a magazine, now it's an online platform with courses, consultancy, and a lot

of cool stuff.

653

00:48:06,192 --> 00:48:10,594

So it's dropping sometime in March this year.

654

00:48:10,774 --> 00:48:14,396

It's all about offers and subscriptions and it's really in depth.

655

00:48:15,737 --> 00:48:16,517

Yeah.

656

00:48:16,655 --> 00:48:18,617

Sounds absolutely fantastic.

657

00:48:18,617 --> 00:48:22,380

And I know the founder goes, yeah, yes, great, fantastic.

658

00:48:22,881 --> 00:48:32,940

So we will of course link to all of that in the show notes as well, including Thomas's

LinkedIn, which is we were commenting, whose post were we commenting?

659

00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:37,024

But we both commented on Jimmy Kim's post.

660

00:48:37,024 --> 00:48:38,695

You should follow him on LinkedIn.

661

00:48:38,695 --> 00:48:40,857

He talks a lot about email and.

662

00:48:42,322 --> 00:48:44,014

I just really like his LinkedIn post.

663

00:48:44,014 --> 00:48:46,085

He just basically tells you off every time doesn't it?

664

00:48:46,085 --> 00:48:56,472

It's just really funny and and we were both commenting on that and Yeah, you like we

should talk about this on the podcast So I Thomas is active on LinkedIn come come find him

665

00:48:56,472 --> 00:49:01,455

and say how's it and we will of course link to all of that in the show notes, but Thomas

Thanks, man.

666

00:49:01,455 --> 00:49:05,758

Genuinely appreciate that and thanks for coming and delivering some great value

667

00:49:06,473 --> 00:49:07,393

Loved it, man.

668

00:49:07,393 --> 00:49:08,653

It's you're a natural.

669

00:49:08,653 --> 00:49:10,473

Again, back to the compliments.

670

00:49:11,173 --> 00:49:12,433

You're a natural.

671

00:49:12,433 --> 00:49:15,613

You make everything flow so easy.

672

00:49:15,793 --> 00:49:16,693

Yeah, well done.

673

00:49:16,693 --> 00:49:17,693

Good to see you.

674

00:49:17,693 --> 00:49:18,993

I enjoyed that chat.

675

00:49:19,303 --> 00:49:19,623

bless you.

676

00:49:19,623 --> 00:49:20,263

We should do this.

677

00:49:20,263 --> 00:49:21,284

Well done.

678

00:49:23,765 --> 00:49:24,536

Let's see applause.

679

00:49:24,536 --> 00:49:25,706

That's enough applause.

680

00:49:25,706 --> 00:49:27,587

So brilliant.

681

00:49:27,587 --> 00:49:37,483

Like I said, we will of course link to all of the information for Thomas in the show

notes, which you can see on the website, ecommercepodcast.net.

682

00:49:37,483 --> 00:49:41,635

If you subscribe to our magical newsletter, they'll be in there as well.

683

00:49:41,635 --> 00:49:44,456

And of course, I'm not going to try and pull the wool over your eyes.

684

00:49:44,456 --> 00:49:47,732

You're listening to this on a podcast app more than likely.

685

00:49:47,732 --> 00:49:51,903

or you're watching it on YouTube, the links will also be in the show notes.

686

00:49:51,903 --> 00:49:54,653

Just download them or click them in the show notes.

687

00:49:54,653 --> 00:49:55,974

Don't download them, just click them.

688

00:49:55,974 --> 00:49:57,185

They're there as well.

689

00:49:57,185 --> 00:49:58,175

Go and say, how's it going?

690

00:49:58,175 --> 00:49:59,805

Introduce yourself to Thomas.

691

00:49:59,805 --> 00:50:01,516

I'm sure he'd love to talk to you.

692

00:50:01,516 --> 00:50:03,206

But what a great conversation.

693

00:50:03,206 --> 00:50:10,788

Now do be sure to follow the e-commerce podcast wherever you get your podcasts from,

because we've got some more great conversations lined up.

694

00:50:10,788 --> 00:50:12,409

And of course, I don't want you to miss any of them.

695

00:50:12,409 --> 00:50:13,549

Why would I?

696

00:50:13,549 --> 00:50:17,098

And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first.

697

00:50:17,098 --> 00:50:18,359

You are awesome.

698

00:50:18,359 --> 00:50:20,301

Yes, you are created awesome.

699

00:50:20,301 --> 00:50:21,492

It's just a burden.

700

00:50:21,492 --> 00:50:24,025

You have to bear Thomas has got to bear it.

701

00:50:24,025 --> 00:50:25,226

I've got to bear it.

702

00:50:25,226 --> 00:50:27,288

You have got to bear it as well.

703

00:50:27,288 --> 00:50:34,795

Now the e-commerce podcast is produced by Podjunction You can find our entire archive of

episodes on your favorite podcast app.

704

00:50:34,795 --> 00:50:39,380

The theme music was written by Josh Edmundson and I just one more plug for the website.

705

00:50:39,380 --> 00:50:41,221

Get a e-commerce podcast.

706

00:50:43,783 --> 00:50:45,444

We never edit these things out.

707

00:50:45,444 --> 00:50:46,754

It's just the way we do it.

708

00:50:46,754 --> 00:50:49,106

They're just go to ecommercepodcast.net.

709

00:50:49,106 --> 00:50:49,656

It's real.

710

00:50:49,656 --> 00:50:50,366

It's authentic.

711

00:50:50,366 --> 00:50:50,876

That's right.

712

00:50:50,876 --> 00:50:53,727

It's just me messing up for the thousandth time.

713

00:50:53,868 --> 00:50:56,389

And if you're still listening at this stage, thank you.

714

00:50:56,389 --> 00:50:58,110

It's great to be with you.

715

00:50:58,270 --> 00:51:01,892

Do like, say like and subscribe to the show, but pretty much that's it from me.

716

00:51:01,892 --> 00:51:02,962

That's it from Thomas.

717

00:51:02,962 --> 00:51:04,417

Thank you so much for joining us.

718

00:51:04,417 --> 00:51:06,954

Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.

719

00:51:06,954 --> 00:51:08,515

I will see you next time.

720

00:51:08,615 --> 00:51:09,655

Bye for now.