Steve Palmer [00:00:00]:

Steve Palmer here, lawyer talk off the record on the air, taking on some comments today. You know, lately we've been posting a bunch of discussions, I'll call it, about I think what the police can and can't do to you. In other words, what's the government, what are our rights against the government actors in this case, in this situation being the police or other law enforcement authorities. And I'm getting lots and lots of comments about it. I love it. I love the interaction, I love the accusations, I love it all and I love the discussion and I'm going to address some of those comments. Today we posted a real, I don't even know where, when it was, but it was about, I've seen a lot of videos lately about folks who just refuse to get out of the car. So they've got it.

Steve Palmer [00:00:42]:

We have a traffic stop, somebody's pulled over on the side of the road and there's body camera footage and dash camera footage and sometimes people even have their own cell phone camera footage of their interactions with the police and they're just being obstructionist. And, and then what happens is ultimately it goes bad for the person behind the wheel. They get yanked out of the car, they get arrested, all the while professing that the police don't have a right to do that. And in a comment to the latest real basically accused me of justifying the police actions and being part of the system because the system is all about money. I, and like most things, I agree with some of this and I don't agree with all of it and, or whatever, I'm just going to break it down and, and sort of address that comment. First and foremost, I have never justified all police actions. You know, I, I, I have spent a career taking on in court both for indigent people, people who have paid me sometimes even for free, many times for free, gone into a courtroom to fight for those rights that I so dearly hold as sacred in our system, in our constitutional system. I love that we have a bill of rights that frankly almost didn't exist.

Steve Palmer [00:02:00]:

You know, there was a discussion whether we needed a Bill of Rights because why enumerate what is obvious? At any rate, I love the Bill of Rights. I love that we have the Fourth Amendment. I don't always like that it has been chipped away at say over the years by, by decisions out of the U.S. supreme Court. And it's like this creeping body of law that gives the government exceptions to the fourth Amendment. So you know, there's, I have two competing interests here. I don't always agree with what the US Supreme Court decisions say, but it doesn't mean that I'm not bound by them, and it doesn't mean that I don't have to play in that sandbox, because I do. And this comment sort of struck me because it took me a minute to actually more than a minute.

Steve Palmer [00:02:45]:

It took me a while to figure out what, what was going on. And, you know, because I sort of agree, you know, I, I agree that this, There's a lot of money that the system makes as a result of traffic enforcement or criminal enforcement. Lawyers make a lot of money. Judges are paid by our, our dollars. The prosecutors are paid by our dollars. The police are paid by our dollars. And then they employ, the government employs a lot of people who are put in place to process all this stuff. So it is, you know, I can understand why that would be bothersome.

Steve Palmer [00:03:16]:

But then I started to think about the opposite. Like, what. What is the alternative? Maybe not the opposite, but the alternative. And, you know, we have. Maybe I'll go all the way back to John Locke. You know, we, we have this sort of tenuous agreement with the government, and I'll put agreement in quotes, but maybe an understanding. We have given up some of our freedom and for protection. And then it's like this sliding scale, like, how much freedom are we going to give up in order to have protection? Go back to the COVID like during the COVID era, this was one of the hot, hotly debated topics.

Steve Palmer [00:03:53]:

How much freedom for our safety are we going to give up? Are we going to permit the government to impose these restrictions for our own safety? Some people said yes, other people said no. But it was a really good representative example of this paradox. Our Fourth Amendment, our constitutional rights are sort of like that. You know, I think on some level, any civilized society needs law enforcement to be able to do what they do. Our country has created a unique situation where we limit the government and its actors in executing what they are, what they believe are the laws. But it doesn't mean that we have given up or that we don't have to follow the laws and that we get the right to tell police no anytime we want to. Like, we have to have some tenuous balance here. And ultimately, I think the place to.

Steve Palmer [00:04:45]:

I think the point of what I was saying in these videos, these most recent videos and discussions about what they can't do to you is that there's a place to redress this stuff. And my advice, I'm not even going to call it advice. My, my Focus is I see people on the side of the road or in their car or in interactions with the police, taking on the police on a very fundamental nature, like, you can't do this to me. And when I comment on this stuff, I'm not saying that they're wrong. I'm not saying these people are absolutely 100% wrong that the police can't do this to me. But what I am saying is the police are doing it to them in the moment. And the more resistance the police get, even particularly bad cops, draconian cops, or in this comment, he says despotic police officers, the more of that you're going to get. And unfortunately, the only place to redress that, to deal with it, is the courtroom.

Steve Palmer [00:05:48]:

If we fight that on the streets, we end up with anarchy or riots or whatever. And look, I'm sure there's going to be lots of comments saying, well, that's a good thing and may, you know, maybe so, but if, unless you want full revolution, and then I would suggest, or I would ask what's next, you know, we have to play within the system that we've created. And I'm all for going to the General assembly or your legislative branch of government and advocating and passing laws that deal with some of this stuff or maintain, rather even, even more important, maintain our constitutional rights. And let's, let's focus on keeping what we have intact. That all happens in a courtroom. If it happens on the streets, ultimately, I think we're going to get more of what we don't want. You're going to get more government resistance to our resistance as citizens, to the government action. So where does it, where, you know, when is it time to go into the streets and fight this fight? You know, I don't have an answer to that.

Steve Palmer [00:06:54]:

I don't have an answer to that. But I can tell you this. If you try to fight, if you tell the average person you don't have to follow police orders because all police are despotic or that all police are bad or that cops are this, are just there to violate your rights. The people you get, what you see on these videos, you get people in the dirt, face down, in the cuffs in a situation that is completely out of their control, that they never wanted. So one comment said, I just prefer to stay in my car with my hands on the steering wheel and not get out and face the humiliation of being arrested. I agree. I mean, I would much rather prefer, I would much prefer that also. But in that moment, we don't really get the choice I can.

Steve Palmer [00:07:39]:

And as I've always said, I can help you in a courtroom. So we have the. So let's talk about that. We have, like, this pie in the sky of what we think it should be, and then we have, like, the reality of what it is. You know, we don't have perfect police officers. And I am the first one to admit that there are some bad cops out there. But I'm also willing to accept and acknowledge that there are many, many good police officers out there who do try to do it right. They don't always get it right, but they're trying to do it right.

Steve Palmer [00:08:02]:

So, you know, the question is, where do we deal with this? And I still think the proper place is a courtroom. I can help you in court. I can't help you on this side of the road. And the point of what I'm saying is not to advocate for bad or despotic or evil police officers. It's not to advocate against good police officers. It's merely to point out that we have constitutional rights in this country. And the place to redress a violation of those rights is the courtroom. And that can happen in one of two ways.

Steve Palmer [00:08:37]:

You know, as this guy says, I do this for money. It is my job. It's my living. I've done it for a long time. But I can tell you this. If I wanted to make a lot more money, I would not have chosen the career path of being a criminal defense lawyer. There are far more lucrative areas of the law. Just go to big law and check their hourly billing rates.

Steve Palmer [00:08:59]:

In the corporate world, I don't make that kind of money. So I've taken this on more as. As part of what I think is right. You know, this is. You know, people say, why do you do this for a living? And a close friend of mine once said, for three reasons. Sometimes we do it for ego, Sometimes we do it for money, Sometimes we do it for cause. And maybe all three of those. One is more important in any given given scenario.

Steve Palmer [00:09:23]:

But, you know, we. We. I do this often. I think cost is always in there, but I do it to help my clients. And I think the best place to help clients is in the courtroom. So back to one of two ways. The first way I can help people in a courtroom is what we've talked about here on the show, which is I file a motion to suppress, and we argue to get the evidence thrown out of court. If the police violate my client's constitutional rights, I get to argue that they can't use the evidence they found I'm doing this right before I got on the air.

Steve Palmer [00:09:51]:

I put the final touches on a suppression motion, a request from a trial court judge to throw out evidence that police found on the side of the road when my client was stopped in his car. And the good news is my client didn't resist it physically. He kept his mouth shut. He didn't make statements. I can help that guy. I can defend him in a courtroom, and I think I'm going to be successful. The other place, in theory is we still have. We can still sue the government.

Steve Palmer [00:10:19]:

Look, there's. There's 1983 lawyers, civil rights lawyers out there who sue government actors all the time. I would love to see more of this for basic, fundamental Fourth Amendment violations on the side of the road, take them into federal court, file a lawsuit for violating civil rights. You know, it's. I don't think that happens enough. And to the point that maybe some of these people are making. Is there like you. It's all a Pyrrhic fight.

Steve Palmer [00:10:41]:

Meaning. It doesn't have much meaning. You go into court and you fight and you lose. It's just part of the big. You're a cog in the wheel or you're part of the system, you're part of the money grab. Maybe so, but let's try to make it not just that. You know, go into court, advocate for your rights, do it with the decorum that is appropriate for a courtroom. And maybe, just maybe, over time, we can make some headway on this.

Steve Palmer [00:11:06]:

I don't know that this is perfect. I can't say our system is perfect, but I think I can say it's the best. It's. Could it be better? Sure, let's make it better together. But if we're looking for perfect, you're never going to find it, because it's all human. And it all suffers from the same human imperfection that every other human endeavor suffers from. So we can't be perfect, but we can still be the best. And I don't think it's the best to have to fight this out, to fight these battles on the street with police officers.

Steve Palmer [00:11:39]:

I hate seeing our citizens in the dirt with a cop's boot on their back. It almost. It's like I cringe every time I see that because I can help that person in a courtroom. I can't help them on the side of the street. Look, I love the comments, guys. Keep them coming if you disagree with me. I love it. I'll take it on.

Steve Palmer [00:11:59]:

Just right here. Take it on. I'll dress it right here. I'd love to hear more of it because these are the discussions that brought me into the law to begin with. And this is the kind of stuff that keeps me here. I hope you enjoy the show. Lawyer talk off the record, on the air till now.