Speaker: 00:00:04

Welcome to the e-commerce podcast.

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My name is Matt Edmondson and it is great to be with you today.

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We are recording This podcast transatlantic Today which is very exciting.

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We have We have a dark evening approaching for me and for Edwin and there's sort of a

cloudy but bright morning So hence if you're watching this on YouTube the two very

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different backdrops

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But it's great to be with you.

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Looking forward to this conversation.

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Edwin, how are doing?

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I am doing fantastic, how are you today?

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Yeah, good, the day's practically over.

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you know, after we recorded this conversation, I'm gonna go and get my dinner.

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So I'm all kinds of happy right now.

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I am just an hour away from a delicious meal, which my beautiful wife is cooking.

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So I'm very happy.

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But yes, no, it's great to be with you, man.

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Thanks for joining us on the podcast today.

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For those of you who don't know about uh Jet Fuel Agency, just give us a quick 20 second

snapshot of what it is you guys do.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So Jet Fuel Agency is a performance and creative marketing agency.

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Been around since 2017.

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And we do exceptionally well in kind of three facets, right?

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So we have our retention marketing, our email and SMS.

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We have our search marketing, which is SEO, page search, Google ads.

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And then we have our page social, which is your meta, Instagram, TikTok ads.

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And we primarily focus on better for you food and beverage, CPG.

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health and wellness, and parts-driven e-commerce brands.

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So those are kind of our three niches that we've been fortunate to do well in.

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Very good.

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And I love how across the Atlantic you say niches, but we would say niche.

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And I don't know why.

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I don't know if I carry enough to go find out, it's the salt is of language, which always

intrigues me.

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Well, it's good to have you on, Looking forward to getting into the conversation.

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But before we do, ladies, gentlemen, let me just tell you about the newsletter that we

have.

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If you're not signed up to it yet.

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It's just called the e-commercer and once a week we email out the notes from the podcast.

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So the guests come on the show, we take the notes, we email those out to you along with

all the links to the guest.

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that the guest has mentioned, we put in those notes.

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That just makes it super easy because we know a lot of you guys listen to the show on the

moon.

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So if you haven't done so already, just head over to ecommercepodcast.net and just sign up

to the newsletter.

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It'd be great to send it out to you.

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We send it out to thousands of people every week.

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And so we just send out one email with one newsletter and that's it.

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So no spam, no nothing, just beautiful written content and prose.

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And occasionally it has my face on it, which I can only apologize for.

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But the one that's going out this week with Edwin's face on it, you'll be safe.

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So we're okay.

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But yes, let me, listen, let's go back to your agency, Jet Fuel, by the way, I think is a

great name for an agency.

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I love that.

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Congratulations on the name.

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If you could wave a magic wand, right?

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And solve the most common, the biggest single problem that all your customers face, what

would be that problem that they would face that you would solve and why?

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Yeah, right now I would say the biggest pain point, if I had a magic wand, is to solve

creative.

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We often don't see enough creative, we don't see high quality enough creative, and then we

don't see creative that is diverse enough for the environment that we're in right now.

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So I would say that that would be the biggest thing that I would love to solve.

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And when you say creative, let me not assume what you mean.

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Just explain what you mean when you say creative.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So, you know, a lot of times when clients or prospective clients come to us and we look at

their meta accounts, the most important lever that you can pull is how are you feeding the

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algorithm, right?

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So the, any of the ad platforms, whether it be meta or Tik Tok, even Google and YouTube's

a certain extent, they function on the back of how strong your creative strategy is and

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how much, how much of the signal

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are you giving to the algorithm so they could direct you to the best customers possible?

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And oftentimes, I think there is an element of surprise when we chat with individuals or

companies and we let them know how much creative they need and what the gap is right now.

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So that's what I mean by that.

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Okay, I'm gonna dig if I if you don't mind me pressing into this a little bit when you say

how much creative they need and They're always surprised is that because they've got one

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or two bits and they need 10,000 or what does that mean?

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Yeah, so if you really think about it and you think about creative almost like day

trading, right?

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You're gonna have some winners and you're gonna have some losers, right?

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And even if you're the best strategist in the world, you're not gonna win all the time,

right?

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You might win 25 to 35 % of the time.

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Rest of them are not gonna work out.

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So I think a lot of times when advertisers are running their ad accounts, they're not

accounting for how much creative they need.

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to put out there in order for you to have enough winners on top of all the losers that you

have.

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I think that's the first thing that we see.

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And then second thing we see is creative fatigue, or basically individuals getting tired

of seeing your ads is happening more quickly than ever.

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People's attention spans are increasingly shorter.

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People are reacting to things differently than they were three or four years ago.

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People's tastes change.

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All that put together means that this creative engine, it gets fatigued very easily and

you need to be able to keep up with the pace of ads that are getting tired or falling off

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in performance and having a strong pipeline to replace those ads and then some, you know,

if you're testing.

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That's really interesting how you phrased em this.

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So finding the winners, that to me, I instantly understand what you're saying because

we've all done it.

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We've all had this.

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Guys, I've had a great idea.

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This is gonna kill it.

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And we do something and it flops, whether it's an offer, whether it's creative, whatever

it is, right?

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And we've just not predicted.

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as well as we thought we were going to.

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And so I get, love this idea of over creating, like going, guys, listen, we're to do 10

items, seven of them are going to not going to work.

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We don't know which ones, we just have to find a three that do.

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And one of those might work better than the other two.

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So we're to keep going until we find the one or two that really, really do well.

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But then if I couple that with what you said about creative fatigue, they're to do really,

really well for a little bit.

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So I can't stop the engine running.

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And so I'm guessing I'm coming back to what you said right at the start now when you said

about the amount of creative I'm thinking yeah I can see why you would say that because

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this seems to be a sort of a constant engine that you need to feed

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Yeah.

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And what we want to do as well is we want to take some of the guesswork away from it,

right?

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So as, as individuals who are running marketing accounts, we often sit down and we say,

okay, what's the budget for ad spend for this month, this quarter, this year?

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So we put a lot of thought and detail into forecasting and modeling that out.

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However, why aren't we putting that same amount of detail into asking ourselves a

question?

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How much creative do we need for January, February?

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March.

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what has been really helpful for us is that we have some processes where we can go into an

account and we can say, this particular account, if it takes quickly, so it needs about 77

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pieces of creative a month.

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And then we put that into the planning.

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So we go to our design team and we say, okay, February, you need 77.

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March, you need 77.

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April, there's a holiday and there's a big sale.

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So we actually need 120.

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Right.

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And we plan that out alongside our media budgets to make sure that we're always staying on

top of that.

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Right.

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We don't want to be reactionary where we see the account get fatigued, performance is

starting to dip by that time is too late.

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It's too late to get the new creatives live approved and into the account and built.

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Right.

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By that time you're already suffering.

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So we want to try to get ahead of that cycle.

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Wow, that's a lot of creative.

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When you put numbers on it like that, that's a lot.

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I'm intrigued if I can ask you about this idea of creative fatigue.

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So I've heard this phrase used actually.

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And to be fair, I've used the phrase myself.

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One of the things that I guess surprises me is how quickly things do become fatigued when

it comes to creative.

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Because I'm like...

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I can't remember like what I had for lunch.

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So how do I remember the 20 ads that I've seen on Meta today?

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How will I know that when I see them again tomorrow, I'm like, I've already seen that.

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In a world where there's so much coming at us, I guess I'm just a little bit surprised by

how quickly things get fatigued because it sort of seems contrary a little bit.

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Why?

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Right.

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So here's kind of looking at it from the consumer's perspective.

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Right.

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So let's say you're on your phone and it's 7 p.m.

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at night and you're scrolling through your feed.

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Right.

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Generally what people do is as they get to an ad, there's a decision that they make.

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Do they stop on the ad?

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Do they stop the scrolls?

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What we call it is a thumb stopping creative or do they just simply keep going?

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Right.

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I think that's the first decision point.

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If your ad is not good enough to stop the scroll, there's not going to be enough people

interacting and looking at the ad for that ad to get enough data to live for a long time.

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Right?

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So that's kind of like the first really big factor.

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That's why it's really important for our creatives to have a strong, what we call hook,

right?

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Within the first three seconds, that message has to be so strong that it stops the scroll.

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Okay.

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Now, once you get past that point,

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Right?

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I would say that if you survey a customer, they often probably can't recall the exact

value props or offer ad copy that they've seen.

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But what they can probably recall is how that ad made them feel.

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Did they make, did the ad make them feel assured?

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Did they make, did the ad make them feel worried?

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The, did the ad make them feel inspired?

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Right?

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So they remember

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the emotion that is born from the ad.

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Now, if all of your ad is sort of a single tonality type of ad and is 100 % inspiration,

right?

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Then that's where that element, you know, in my eyes, that's where the element of fatigue

comes in.

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Like, oh, I kind of seen the same story over and over and over again.

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Might have a different look, might have a different person talking about the message, but

the message is fundamentally the same.

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And that's why Meta,

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release Andromeda, which is like this really huge rollout where they're trying to help

prevent that.

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Like they want the messaging in your account to be diverse because there's all sorts of

different messaging that's going to be important in the marketing funnel.

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Whether you never heard of the brand, you never even heard of the problem.

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Maybe you're in a place where you're considering multiple brands.

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All of that needs different messaging.

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And ideally all of that should trigger different emotions, right?

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Based on

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who you are and who you're targeting.

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So hopefully that makes sense.

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So I think if people see the same type of emotional flavor, right, then their palate will

get tired.

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Yeah, that's really, that's a really interesting point.

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So it's not just the same ad, it's the same flavor of ads, isn't it?

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That becomes problematic and why you've got to inject a little bit more there.

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Well, Edwin, I know we're going to talk about your meta framework.

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This seems like a good point to do that.

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But before we dive into it, just explain for those that might not know, Andromeda.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So I'm going to do it the best way I can and try to make it simple because it's quite a

complex system.

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But Andromeda is what Meta has released partially in response to some of the data

restrictions that has been imposed upon it over the last several years.

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So as you know, Apple and Google and other entities are trying to go hard on the privacy

game and strip away some of the information.

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that is exposed to ad platforms like Meta.

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So no longer does Meta know that you're a 43-year-old male who's interested in football.

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It has to make an educated guess on who you are.

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And the data that has available is what you react to.

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What you react to on its own platforms, that has that data available.

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So in light of that, Meta has been

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building this AI engine for a while and has been rolling it out in tranches in 2024 and

2025.

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And updates are still being made to this day.

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And essentially what Meta Andromeda is doing is saying, well, I'm going to take a look at

all the ads that you're running.

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And we have strong AI capabilities.

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So we can look at the imagery.

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We can read the transcript.

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We can identify the messaging.

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And we can do that pretty much instantaneously.

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And what we don't want, Meta as a platform, what they don't want is people spending time

off of the platform.

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They want people spending time on the platform, on Instagram, WhatsApp, Meta, whatever

case might be, for the maximum amount of minutes per day.

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And the only way to do that is to make sure that they're not super tired, the people who

are consumers on the platform, they're not super tired of seeing the same ads over and

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over and over again.

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So Andromeda, what it does is that,

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If it sees that you have a hundred ads and all 100 ads are very, similar, like they have

the same core messaging and they may have different people speaking or whatnot.

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You might have different formats, but if they're all essentially saying the same thing,

Metta is going to go, I'm going to treat that as one app, not 100.

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And then that means that if there's a auction, right, right.

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All of the ads run in the auction system, you only get one.

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Chance to break into the audience Previously you would get a hundred chances, right?

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So a lot of advertisers myself included in 2017 2018 we would build a winning ad and we

wouldn't build ten very close variants of it and it would do really well, right?

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So if you do that now it would not do really well Because it would treat that whole thing.

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Even if I had 11 ads you would treat as one app

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And then you would have the same consequences as only running one ad, is increased

fatigue, decreased delivery.

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And then you're going to have higher ad costs, right?

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Cause you only have one ad trying to compete in this very crowded auction.

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So that is a new ad serving system that they have in drama.

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And then the reason why they built it is they want to make sure that advertisers have a

lot of diversity.

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then when you're an end user and you scroll through your feed, you also have a lot of

diversity.

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And therefore, you're not tired of looking at ads in general.

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Right, oh

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to stay on the platform which comes back to the original point No, does and I appreciate

you explaining it and like you say it's complicated Because it's and it's to be

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complicated, but it thank you for breaking it down Like that so Edwin let's jump into your

framework.

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Let's get into

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that but before we do ladies and gentlemen let me give you a quick shout out to the

e-commerce cohort.

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If you're a regular to the show you will know what that is if you're not regular to the

show you might go what's the e-commerce what?

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The e-commerce cohort is just a bunch of us that get together once a month on Zoom for a

call, lasts about two hours actually and we just talk about e-commerce what's going on in

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our business we share our sites what's working we get feedback

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from peers, it's a totally free community to join, but it is an amazing community to join.

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And if you are in e-commerce and would like to join something that helps you sort of grow

your e-commerce business without too much drama, then check it out, e-commerce cohort.

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Just go to the podcast website, ecommercepodcast.net forward slash cohort, and you will

find out more there.

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Edwin, let's get into your framework.

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Give us the overview and then we'll pick some bits to dive in on.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So framework has two parts, right?

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I think the first part is the creative framework.

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What do we do to do to be successful from a creative standpoint, from a planning operation

and strategy perspective?

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And it all kind of starts with the creative.

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Now, once we have that built, what does it look like to actually put it in the account and

have that creative be functionally effective for you?

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Right.

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And that would be the campaign structure.

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So I would probably dive first into the creative framework.

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uh So for us, what we do is every account has its own unique fingerprint.

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Some accounts burn through creative quickly, some accounts do not.

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So what we do is we have a formula or a series of formulas where we kind of take the day

over day performance and go back as far as we can, whether it be six months, 12 months, or

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18 months.

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And sort of break it down by how quickly ads

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decay in a particular account and what is the average win rate, right?

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Where we have great ROAS on an ad, is it 20 % of the time we're winning or is it 40 % of

the time, right?

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We use that as our baseline and we take that and we marry that to our ad budgets for the

year, right?

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And that's how we come up with, we need X amount of creative per month, right?

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Whether it be 20 or whether it be 60.

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And then on top of that, you layer all the other

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things that occur during the year, sales, Black Friday, whatever the case might be,

because that's going to spike your creative usage.

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And so once we have that number down, we marry that to our creative sources.

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We have a lot of creative sources.

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You can source from influencers.

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You can work with partners that we have.

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You can build the ads in-house with a design team.

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You can take raw organic posts and chop it up.

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And now, obviously, you can use AI.

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There's all sorts of ways to use AI in a meaningful way to help your capacity and

production of ads.

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And each of those sources have a cost.

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So we have an average cost per source.

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So UGC might cost us $83.

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An AI ad might cost us $0.17.

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And an in-house ad might cost us $6.50.

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So we take our budget.

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in accordance to how many creators that we need to create and we get all of our sources

lined up.

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It's almost like a factory, right?

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So let's say you're building a car and you have your tires and you know, I think in the UK

they call it like the boot, right?

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Like you have different types of parts that have different costs and they have different

suppliers, right?

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And there's probably like two or three suppliers in case your rubber supplier is out of

stock, you have a secondary, right?

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So we have the same concept.

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So we get everything into production.

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And then we create the ads, right?

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Once we have the ads in, right?

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So let's say we have 70 ads in hand.

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think the most important thing after that is to name them in such a way where our tools

and reporting tools can, can basically scan the name of the ad and we know what's winning

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and what's not.

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it a fear based ad that's winning right now?

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Is it an inspiration based ad?

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Is it an ad that is targeted toward a male?

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young male persona.

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Is it an ad that's targeted toward a uh mom persona?

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Like those, we need to organize it in such a way where our tools can go and scan the ad

performance and we say, holy moly, it looks like we're really crushing it with the mom

285

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persona.

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And the way that we're doing it is via relatability.

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Right?

288

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Then we packaged that all up and we build it all at once.

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So if we have 70 ads, we build 70 uh pieces of ad landing page copy.

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We leave all pause in the account.

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So the analogy we use is almost like if you go to the grocery store and there's some

inventory on the shelf and there's a lot more inventory in the warehouse or in the back.

292

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So if you ever sell out of inventory on the shelf, you can go to the warehouse and get

more boxes of cookies or whatnot.

293

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So we have that same concept here.

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Once we have all that packaged up and ready to go, we put it into the campaigns.

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So the campaign structure is generally relatively simple.

296

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So we have two types of campaigns.

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We have what's called a sandbox campaign, which is a low budget, high risk campaign.

298

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Meaning that maybe we're testing things that have never been tested before.

299

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You have a low budget because you don't want that thing running off the rails and spending

huge amounts of budget.

300

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Right.

301

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And then we have what we call it a scaling or graduation campaign.

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Right.

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And this is a big budget, big campaign that generally has all the proven winners in it.

304

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And we have a high budget because they've been proven.

305

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They have been proven in the sandbox.

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They work for us.

307

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We love it.

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Then we're going to graduate them to the scaling campaign so they can really take off and

fly.

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Right.

310

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So super simplistic overview, but hopefully that kind of gives you a sense of

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what our framework looks like and what's been working for us.

312

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That's really cool.

313

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I appreciate you sharing that with us.

314

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Let me go back to the beginning where you're trying to figure out the numbers and you

mentioned looking at things like the decay rate and the win rate to try and figure out how

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much creative you want.

316

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Could you walk us through something there because I'm kind of like that I get the theory

but I'm in practice How do I do that?

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How do I go on to I don't need a step-by-step?

318

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How do I go get that data from matter?

319

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I think people might know that but Just what am I looking for?

320

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How that translates to figuring out how much content I need to create

321

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Yeah, absolutely.

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here's what I would do.

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I would go and go to your meta account, you log in, and then there's a button that says

breakdown.

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And you break it down by day.

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And then you go to the ad section.

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So then basically you can see how each ad is doing.

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You can see uh if an ad is doing 10 conversions, 10 conversions, 10 conversions, and then

five, and then two.

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So that would be decay right there.

329

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Nowadays, I used to have to do this manually with Excel, but nowadays you can export that

whole thing to CSV and you put that in your favorite LLM or AI tool of choice.

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could be ChatGBT, Gemini, could be Clod.

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And you say here, my target, my winning cost per acquisition is 50 bucks.

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I want you to calculate over this time period, the percentage of ads are winning and the

percentage of ads are losing.

333

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At the same time, I want you to calculate the average lifetime of an ad at the pack or

cost per acquisition.

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You're going to have those two numbers.

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So based on those two numbers, you're going to have a pretty firm understanding of, okay,

well my win rate is about 30%.

336

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And my ads last about six days on average, right?

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You're going to have those two numbers.

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Then you can put in your ad budget.

339

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And you take those two numbers and you kind of backwards extrapolate, right?

340

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Well, if I want 30 % winners at all times and I was spending 50 grand a month and I know

they last for six days and the month has 30 days in it, right?

341

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You do some algebra, right?

342

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And I never thought I would use algebra so much in my day-to-day professional life.

343

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My teacher would be happy.

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Um, but, but then you would come up with a number, you come up with a number and therefore

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There's some science and education behind what you're asking your team to do.

346

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So hopefully you hit that Goldilocks moment where you're not making too many ads, you're

not making too few.

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If you had to choose one, I would make too many.

348

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But obviously there's costs involved and there's time involved.

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So that's what I would do.

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em We're actually building a simple free tool where you can

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If you wanted to, you can upload some of those numbers and then our tool will spit out how

many ads you need to make for a month and that's it.

352

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That might be a very simple uh thing for marketers to do that they might find very

helpful.

353

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So we're in the process of building and releasing that right now.

354

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uh I would love to share it with your listeners if that's something they're interested in.

355

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I'm sure absolutely yeah because it saves algebra which is a beautiful thing right I don't

want to do algebra and half the audience was breaking into a cold sweat as soon as you

356

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said algebra it's just one of those things me being one of them and so now that's that's

super helpful so I understand how I can then start to piece together how much creative I

357

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need which is great

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I understand how to figure out the decay rate and I can get AI to help me with those

numbers, which is a beautiful thing.

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So then you came on to the creative sources.

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So make them.

361

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And you mentioned things like UGC, doing it in-house, and AI.

362

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Let me just touch on AI if I can for a little bit here.

363

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How are you using AI?

364

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Where have you seen it being used?

365

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Well, when it comes to add creative.

366

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Yes, yes.

367

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So right now we've been doing a tremendous amount of testing on AI tools.

368

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I would say that 80 to 90 % of them are not yet production ready, right?

369

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At least not at the speed and quality that we're looking for.

370

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Something that has been very helpful for us is we like to take a winning image or a

winning template and then go ahead and kind of modify that and make a lot of different

371

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types of messaging with AI.

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I'll give you an example.

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There is one ad that we really, really like, or just a couple, where you essentially see

the ad message is text and is inside of another template.

374

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One of them might be, looks like you're driving on the road and it looks like your brand

bought a billboard.

375

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And there will be a really witty or quippy one-liner there uh saying, uh best thing is a

slice of bread, here's a product.

376

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It looks like you...

377

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bought a billboard, but obviously it's AI generated.

378

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So if that template does really well, then you could do a lot of different types of

testing with replacing what's on that billboard.

379

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And for AI, it is pretty darn good.

380

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It's 80%, 90 % of the way there.

381

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But I would say most of the general public would not realize that you didn't spend $10,000

to buy a billboard.

382

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Or you can do something like,

383

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You have office desk and there is a notepad there and you're scribbling something like, I

really need to lose some weight.

384

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Right.

385

00:28:54,047 --> 00:28:55,638

I'm making this up again.

386

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But, and then I'll do like a pretend scribble of, I found this product.

387

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This is, this could be amazing for me.

388

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And that could be a template and you could have like six different types of messaging.

389

00:29:06,788 --> 00:29:08,349

It looks handwritten.

390

00:29:08,629 --> 00:29:09,210

Right.

391

00:29:09,210 --> 00:29:12,012

So that's kind of our favorite way to use it right now.

392

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The second favorite way to use it, which is probably a little bit more boring, is we'll

take a lot of our clients have these kind of long form pieces of educational content,

393

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which we love, right?

394

00:29:22,229 --> 00:29:29,855

Because we love educational content because it's very top of funnel, kind of introduces

people to the brand, the problem, and the solution.

395

00:29:29,855 --> 00:29:32,517

Let's say it is four minutes long.

396

00:29:32,698 --> 00:29:40,588

So previously, our team would have to, you they would have to watch all four minutes and

then they have to start slicing and dicing and trying to get

397

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you know, 15 second incremental uh little cuts and then we'll add transitions and such.

398

00:29:46,750 --> 00:29:49,309

So we have tools that does it all automatically.

399

00:29:49,491 --> 00:29:58,593

Like it basically figures out the most impactful 20 seconds as in your transitions, your

end card, your call to action, all that good stuff.

400

00:29:58,593 --> 00:30:00,753

It's quite a time saver.

401

00:30:00,924 --> 00:30:07,165

so it could take, you know, literally it used to take maybe two or three hours to make

four or five clips.

402

00:30:07,165 --> 00:30:09,526

And now it takes four to five minutes.

403

00:30:09,974 --> 00:30:10,616

Right, so that's...

404

00:30:10,616 --> 00:30:11,189

405

00:30:11,189 --> 00:30:12,487

mind sharing what the tool is?

406

00:30:12,487 --> 00:30:13,453

I'm curious.

407

00:30:13,453 --> 00:30:16,358

We like to use CapCut and Descript.

408

00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,784

Those are the two tools that we use.

409

00:30:19,076 --> 00:30:20,034

yeah, yeah.

410

00:30:20,034 --> 00:30:26,278

So I think I know that Descript will auto find the of clips for you.

411

00:30:26,278 --> 00:30:28,391

Just CapCut do that as well now.

412

00:30:28,424 --> 00:30:30,346

It really helps us with the templating.

413

00:30:30,346 --> 00:30:39,974

So if we find a template that works, we import that into CapCut and then we clean it up

and we could do some remixes or variations depending on our needs.

414

00:30:39,974 --> 00:30:42,826

Okay, yeah, very good.

415

00:30:42,826 --> 00:30:48,430

My son, uh going slightly off script, Edwin, if I may.

416

00:30:48,430 --> 00:30:52,633

My son has just, thank you, it's my shot, I suppose I can.

417

00:30:53,073 --> 00:30:54,064

I'm thinking it through.

418

00:30:54,064 --> 00:30:59,648

Yeah, well, you understand these things, that.

419

00:30:59,648 --> 00:31:03,861

He's a nutrition coach and he...

420

00:31:03,861 --> 00:31:08,370

421

00:31:08,370 --> 00:31:12,681

He specializes in IBS, mainly because he suffered with IBS for a long time.

422

00:31:13,202 --> 00:31:21,544

And he started to play around with Instagram shorts, Instagram Reels, sorry, I get the

name right.

423

00:31:21,705 --> 00:31:24,256

And he's a big fan of Capco.

424

00:31:24,256 --> 00:31:26,576

You know, he started to do things which is intrigued.

425

00:31:26,576 --> 00:31:29,097

I'm watching him, Edwin, has been really fascinating.

426

00:31:29,097 --> 00:31:31,614

Because I understand like...

427

00:31:31,614 --> 00:31:34,616

Zach, which is the name of my son, you need a funnel.

428

00:31:34,616 --> 00:31:38,889

need to put people, and I can set that up and I can help him with that.

429

00:31:39,030 --> 00:31:50,417

What he's been figuring out on his nutrition videos is things like if he has a tea towel

over his shoulder whilst he's filming, the engagement is greater.

430

00:31:51,219 --> 00:31:58,704

And just, yeah, yeah, you know, like a dishcloth type thing, like a chef would have like a

tea towel over their shoulder.

431

00:31:58,884 --> 00:32:04,506

And I guess it just makes him look more chefy when he's doing his food conversation.

432

00:32:04,506 --> 00:32:05,546

I don't know.

433

00:32:05,546 --> 00:32:06,886

But it's things like this.

434

00:32:06,886 --> 00:32:12,549

And he's like, if I have the camera six inches closer to the chopping board, the

engagement is higher.

435

00:32:12,549 --> 00:32:22,218

So the amount of stuff that he has taken and played around with just to track engagement

and figured out on the way is unbelievable.

436

00:32:22,218 --> 00:32:25,850

Whereas in my head, I'm like, just go record a video of you cooking food.

437

00:32:25,850 --> 00:32:30,822

It's like, well, no, you've not only have you got to cook the food, but you've also got to

get the angle of the camera right.

438

00:32:30,822 --> 00:32:34,034

And then you've got to get the distance from the camera to the chopping board, right?

439

00:32:34,034 --> 00:32:35,214

And then I've got to look at that.

440

00:32:35,214 --> 00:32:38,338

And it's just the science of it just fascinates me.

441

00:32:38,338 --> 00:32:39,650

That is phenomenal.

442

00:32:39,650 --> 00:32:41,935

I should have glued a calculator to my shirt.

443

00:32:41,935 --> 00:32:45,961

Steve, help engage with us.

444

00:32:45,962 --> 00:32:48,605

Yeah, that is amazing.

445

00:32:48,727 --> 00:32:49,665

Good for him.

446

00:32:49,665 --> 00:32:50,445

interesting.

447

00:32:50,445 --> 00:32:50,735

Yeah.

448

00:32:50,735 --> 00:32:50,915

Yeah.

449

00:32:50,915 --> 00:32:56,617

Yeah, and you know, he's doing super well He's almost at 50,000 followers now and he

started a couple months ago.

450

00:32:56,617 --> 00:33:10,512

So he's got a couple videos got well over a million views and Learned a lot actually on

the short form content just watching what he's doing and I think I Think the creative

451

00:33:10,512 --> 00:33:11,612

itself

452

00:33:14,374 --> 00:33:24,891

he like you say for him things like I've got to get their attention in the first three

seconds and so he thinks a lot about the hook but it's it's all the other visual story as

453

00:33:24,891 --> 00:33:29,827

well isn't it and I want to sort of come to this point that you mentioned about

454

00:33:30,664 --> 00:33:32,585

Is this a fear based message?

455

00:33:32,585 --> 00:33:34,706

Is this an inspirational based message?

456

00:33:34,706 --> 00:33:37,547

So you're tapping into the various emotions.

457

00:33:37,687 --> 00:33:38,746

How do you guys do it?

458

00:33:38,746 --> 00:33:51,423

Do you guys like have a matrix in essence where you've got like columns like fear,

security, whatever the sort of core emotions are that you're tapping into with that

459

00:33:51,423 --> 00:33:58,216

product and the like brainstorming around those ideas for different creative.

460

00:33:58,488 --> 00:33:59,239

That's a great question.

461

00:33:59,239 --> 00:34:02,331

We actually use quite a bit of AI for this as well.

462

00:34:02,331 --> 00:34:07,255

So the first thing we do is we take our brand's content, right?

463

00:34:07,255 --> 00:34:10,477

And we essentially kind of put it all together in a folder.

464

00:34:10,557 --> 00:34:20,024

And there's tools that is very similar to the tools probably Meta is using that would

allow you to analyze the messaging, the copying, the sentiment of what you're saying.

465

00:34:20,305 --> 00:34:20,615

Right?

466

00:34:20,615 --> 00:34:25,889

So let's say your brand is often talking about inspiration, right?

467

00:34:25,889 --> 00:34:27,671

It's a very aspirational brand.

468

00:34:27,671 --> 00:34:28,631

And then

469

00:34:28,674 --> 00:34:42,048

There's a second set of tools where you can essentially mine and do customer sentiment

analysis on your brand's online reviews, on your customer service tickets, on customer

470

00:34:42,048 --> 00:34:45,328

service emails, whatever we get exposure to.

471

00:34:45,369 --> 00:34:53,867

We can take that information and then we can really look at it say, well, know, customers

love the way that, that our packaging looks when they arrive at the door.

472

00:34:53,867 --> 00:34:57,982

It really feels premium, but they really hate how fragile.

473

00:34:57,994 --> 00:34:59,945

products are and they break all the time.

474

00:34:59,945 --> 00:35:06,809

So we kind of get these pain points and why consumers love us and why they could

potentially hate us.

475

00:35:06,809 --> 00:35:08,670

And we have that second bucket.

476

00:35:08,750 --> 00:35:11,351

Then the third bucket is the competitor analysis.

477

00:35:11,351 --> 00:35:18,706

We take all the direct competitors, we ingest all their content and we see what they're

saying.

478

00:35:18,706 --> 00:35:23,839

And then when you do that, you can identify what's called a content gap.

479

00:35:23,839 --> 00:35:26,960

Maybe we're talking about inspiration.

480

00:35:26,998 --> 00:35:31,461

Maybe the competitors are all talking about the label, right?

481

00:35:31,461 --> 00:35:33,833

Like they, let's pretend we're selling food product.

482

00:35:33,833 --> 00:35:35,714

They're talking about benefits, right?

483

00:35:35,714 --> 00:35:39,157

But maybe no one's talking about convenience, right?

484

00:35:39,157 --> 00:35:43,940

Maybe no one's talking about convenience, but in the customer reviews, they all talk about

convenience.

485

00:35:43,940 --> 00:35:44,691

shelf stable.

486

00:35:44,691 --> 00:35:45,534

I could grab it.

487

00:35:45,534 --> 00:35:48,523

I could put in my kids backpack very easily.

488

00:35:48,523 --> 00:35:55,548

Then once we kind of have all that together, then we start to brainstorm, you know, where

can we fill in the content gaps?

489

00:35:55,636 --> 00:35:58,417

in a way that's strong of our brand and plays with our strengths.

490

00:35:58,417 --> 00:36:02,199

And then maybe that then we talk about the convenience, right?

491

00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:05,740

And then out of that convenience, the personas are born.

492

00:36:05,740 --> 00:36:07,601

Who would care about convenience?

493

00:36:08,341 --> 00:36:10,502

The busy parent, right?

494

00:36:10,502 --> 00:36:11,682

Frequent traveler, right?

495

00:36:11,682 --> 00:36:16,270

If you're always running back and forth, the business means always living out of the

airport.

496

00:36:16,270 --> 00:36:19,506

You want something healthy, that's shelf stable and very convenient.

497

00:36:19,506 --> 00:36:24,418

That messaging will be a little different for you versus someone who's throwing it into

the backpack, right?

498

00:36:24,418 --> 00:36:25,138

499

00:36:25,138 --> 00:36:36,559

Hopefully that gives you some insight into how we determine what are the emotions and the

messaging amongst the competitive landscape and also understanding our brand and our

500

00:36:36,559 --> 00:36:37,840

customers really well.

501

00:36:38,688 --> 00:36:39,708

No, that's perfect.

502

00:36:39,708 --> 00:36:41,428

And you've answered my next question, actually.

503

00:36:41,428 --> 00:36:44,688

And can I just say, I love the phrase, the content gap.

504

00:36:44,948 --> 00:36:48,488

I think that's a great description for what you're talking about.

505

00:36:48,488 --> 00:36:49,888

But you answered my next question.

506

00:36:49,888 --> 00:36:54,808

It's like, how closely are you looking at the competitors here of your clients?

507

00:36:54,907 --> 00:36:58,308

Like, do you spend a lot of time analyzing competitors?

508

00:36:58,308 --> 00:37:04,848

Like we would spend, well, I would spend, I'm probably slightly...

509

00:37:06,289 --> 00:37:14,940

slightly sadistic I suppose in some respects on this but I would spend an inordinate

amount of time looking at competitors websites and thinking about what they've done how

510

00:37:14,940 --> 00:37:17,703

it's different why they've done it the way they've done it

511

00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,940

being a customer, how do I feel about that?

512

00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:28,540

Like yesterday, me and the team, we had our website open, a competitor's website up in a

mobile format on big screens next to each other and we're like, well, let's look at

513

00:37:28,540 --> 00:37:30,460

theirs, let's look at ours, is that good?

514

00:37:30,460 --> 00:37:34,120

And we really go to town on this, but that might just be me.

515

00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:39,394

But I'm kind of curious, how much time and energy do you guys put into competitive

research?

516

00:37:39,394 --> 00:37:44,989

Well, I would say the right answer is a lot in the beginning and not so much at the end,

right?

517

00:37:44,989 --> 00:37:52,555

Cause you don't want to be obsessed with your competitors because they might, they might

not know what they're doing.

518

00:37:53,396 --> 00:37:59,281

So that's, that's kind of like a big thing for us is that we, we, we will do all that

initial research.

519

00:37:59,281 --> 00:38:00,612

We'll keep tabs, right?

520

00:38:00,612 --> 00:38:08,328

Like if they have something interesting or something went viral or something we started

seeing a lot with, certainly we'll do a refresh, but we.

521

00:38:08,608 --> 00:38:17,152

We always want to try to keep the main focus after the initial onboarding and

understanding of the landscape on how we improve ourselves.

522

00:38:17,473 --> 00:38:17,733

Right.

523

00:38:17,733 --> 00:38:23,946

So it's a kind of very quite a, like a stoic way to look at our creative process, right?

524

00:38:23,946 --> 00:38:29,880

Because once we get that initial baseline, the obsession moves to the customer.

525

00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,651

Like we need to understand the customer better, right?

526

00:38:32,651 --> 00:38:34,282

Not necessarily the competitors.

527

00:38:34,282 --> 00:38:38,054

If we have any obsessions, it should be about the end consumer.

528

00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:39,696

Yeah.

529

00:38:39,902 --> 00:38:42,013

Yeah, I love that.

530

00:38:42,013 --> 00:38:42,443

I love that.

531

00:38:42,443 --> 00:38:44,024

Maybe I am slightly too obsessive.

532

00:38:44,024 --> 00:38:46,735

It's probably a good way to put it.

533

00:38:47,255 --> 00:38:59,481

Coming back, you, one of the things you mentioned is you like to measure or like to look

at before you start getting the campaigns that your ads match up with your landing pages.

534

00:38:59,501 --> 00:39:08,805

Now, if you're creating 77 pieces of content, for example, per month, I'm assuming you're

not creating 77 landing pages on your website.

535

00:39:09,826 --> 00:39:20,606

assume you're grouping then like forms of content to go to, or like forms of creative is a

better way to put it, which is going to specific landing pages, or have I misunderstood?

536

00:39:21,162 --> 00:39:22,572

You are correct.

537

00:39:22,572 --> 00:39:28,094

So we are grouping, we generally group our landing page approach by funnel.

538

00:39:28,314 --> 00:39:37,157

So if you kind of think of the consumer, they have three or four stages that they go

through before they make a purchase.

539

00:39:37,157 --> 00:39:44,579

You have your awareness, you have your consideration, you have your conversion funnel, and

then you have your retention.

540

00:39:44,579 --> 00:39:49,100

So those are all four different stages and those four

541

00:39:49,142 --> 00:39:52,253

Stages need four different landing pages, right?

542

00:39:52,253 --> 00:39:58,526

Because you want to educate them, you want to convert them, you want to close them, then

you want them to buy again, right?

543

00:39:58,526 --> 00:40:01,217

So those are four very different pieces of messaging.

544

00:40:01,217 --> 00:40:06,719

Generally, for example, I'm again oversimplifying it, but for the first stage might be the

homepage.

545

00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,960

And you talk about the founder story.

546

00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:12,052

The second page might be, here's our product line.

547

00:40:12,052 --> 00:40:13,752

The landing page might be a category page.

548

00:40:13,752 --> 00:40:15,063

And here's the product line.

549

00:40:15,063 --> 00:40:18,154

Here's all the different categories that we service.

550

00:40:18,388 --> 00:40:26,830

Once you're into the consideration phase or the conversion phase, that's where you're

talking about really kind of hard hitting value props.

551

00:40:26,830 --> 00:40:28,791

You're comparing against competitors.

552

00:40:28,791 --> 00:40:35,573

You are trying to address fuds, f-u-d-s fuds, is fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

553

00:40:35,573 --> 00:40:37,924

Those are all things are conversion killers, right?

554

00:40:37,924 --> 00:40:39,494

So you address those at that stage.

555

00:40:39,494 --> 00:40:44,656

And obviously once they convert, you need them to come back the second, third, fourth

time.

556

00:40:44,656 --> 00:40:46,636

And that's where the landing page might be.

557

00:40:46,977 --> 00:40:51,244

a subscribe and save, a new flavor, et cetera, et cetera.

558

00:40:51,244 --> 00:40:55,050

Those are all things that are designed to capture that second conversion.

559

00:40:55,050 --> 00:40:59,056

So that's generally how we think about our landing page mix.

560

00:41:00,736 --> 00:41:02,157

That's really helpful.

561

00:41:02,839 --> 00:41:07,464

It's interesting you do on your landing pages on the basis of where they are on the

funnel.

562

00:41:07,464 --> 00:41:08,524

Love that.

563

00:41:08,645 --> 00:41:09,946

Love that.

564

00:41:10,107 --> 00:41:10,967

So.

565

00:41:13,408 --> 00:41:15,868

Where do you see?

566

00:41:17,448 --> 00:41:19,648

Like if I'm.

567

00:41:19,648 --> 00:41:28,628

Let me let me rephrase a question and if I again I can't because it's my showing and I've

not asked it so you don't know what I'm going to say, but I'm just thinking this as I'm

568

00:41:28,628 --> 00:41:29,468

going along.

569

00:41:32,576 --> 00:41:44,436

When it comes to creative, right, we've gone through all of this and I know it was just a

hypothetical example where you're like, well, there might be some pieces of content for

570

00:41:44,436 --> 00:41:46,016

the ads.

571

00:41:48,052 --> 00:41:59,335

I, as an e-commerce operator, I'm breaking out into a cold sweat at the idea of creating

77 pieces of content because I'm like, somebody tells me to write a blog post.

572

00:41:59,335 --> 00:42:04,237

I'm like, I can spend 14 days staring at the screen thinking, what the hell do I write?

573

00:42:04,237 --> 00:42:04,757

Right.

574

00:42:04,757 --> 00:42:10,378

And it's like, I get that this is where AI has been helpful and can kickstart you in the

right direction.

575

00:42:10,438 --> 00:42:17,160

But how do people start to think about creative that allows them to

576

00:42:17,554 --> 00:42:28,411

generate 77 pieces of content without feeling the need to sell their soul to the devil to

try and get all the ideas if that makes sense.

577

00:42:28,411 --> 00:42:30,011

I'm kind of curious.

578

00:42:30,257 --> 00:42:30,697

Yeah.

579

00:42:30,697 --> 00:42:32,518

Well, let's start.

580

00:42:32,518 --> 00:42:36,619

mean, how I would recommend a brand is you go from easy to hard.

581

00:42:36,619 --> 00:42:39,840

You want to of maximize all the easy, right?

582

00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:46,801

All the easy is what you have already because you probably have as a brand, lots of long

form.

583

00:42:46,801 --> 00:42:49,582

Maybe it's a commercial you shot two years ago, right?

584

00:42:49,582 --> 00:42:56,874

Maybe I'm sure there's some sort of, I hope, organic social media presence where you have

585

00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,980

posts, have statics, you have short form video.

586

00:42:59,980 --> 00:43:03,580

There's a lot that you probably have already built for other purposes.

587

00:43:03,580 --> 00:43:05,900

Take all that and repurpose it.

588

00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:09,120

And that could probably last you quite a long time.

589

00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,940

That could last you probably quite a long time, right?

590

00:43:11,940 --> 00:43:16,240

And then if we take the 77 as an example, you might get 40 right there, right?

591

00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:22,440

Get scrappy, remix it, use tools to help you polish it up.

592

00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,580

But you probably might get halfway there just by what you already have, right?

593

00:43:26,580 --> 00:43:27,382

Then

594

00:43:27,382 --> 00:43:28,633

you have the remaining 37.

595

00:43:28,633 --> 00:43:31,834

Then you're like, okay, let's go to the medium difficulty.

596

00:43:32,274 --> 00:43:38,737

I highly encourage brands to just go take, I mean, we all have a high quality camera

nowadays.

597

00:43:38,737 --> 00:43:39,487

This is right here.

598

00:43:39,487 --> 00:43:40,638

It's on the phone.

599

00:43:40,638 --> 00:43:54,223

And just either record a 15 seconds selfie video of you, if you're the founder, going

through the day, making the product, selling the product, consuming the product.

600

00:43:54,483 --> 00:43:56,404

It doesn't have to be polished.

601

00:43:56,482 --> 00:44:07,995

could be, in fact, would say raw and unpolished and organic and authentic is probably the

way to go, especially because customers, some customers are developing what I call AII.

602

00:44:07,995 --> 00:44:11,356

They can look at something and go, that doesn't smell right.

603

00:44:11,356 --> 00:44:25,770

So brands that are more authentic that are putting out raw, shaky content that are

building the, I would say the emotional capital of their brand.

604

00:44:25,984 --> 00:44:27,765

You can't AI that.

605

00:44:28,406 --> 00:44:30,448

Like you can't fake that, right?

606

00:44:30,448 --> 00:44:36,604

So if you're constantly doing that, you might get another 20 pieces of content, right?

607

00:44:36,604 --> 00:44:38,026

And it's not a lot of investment.

608

00:44:38,026 --> 00:44:39,947

You don't have to hire a videographer.

609

00:44:39,947 --> 00:44:44,392

You don't have to do all these things that make, you know, brands and operators go into a

cold sweat, right?

610

00:44:44,392 --> 00:44:48,326

I would say show them a 15 second clip of how your product is made.

611

00:44:48,326 --> 00:44:51,288

Show the quality of your materials, right?

612

00:44:51,288 --> 00:44:57,428

show you go walking into a store and comparing your product's label against your

competitor's label.

613

00:44:57,428 --> 00:44:59,588

Something as simple as that could probably get you what?

614

00:44:59,588 --> 00:45:01,388

Now you're 80 % of the way there.

615

00:45:01,708 --> 00:45:08,388

And then the last bit of it is you probably have partners that you've worked with before

that can help you out.

616

00:45:08,388 --> 00:45:15,028

I'm almost certain that if you're a brand of a certain size, there's partnerships that are

already in play.

617

00:45:15,308 --> 00:45:19,832

Whether it be your supplier, whether it be an influencer you worked with before, whether

it be

618

00:45:19,832 --> 00:45:28,032

someone that has reviewed your product on YouTube, whether it be someone that featured

your product on TikTok, reach out to them.

619

00:45:28,052 --> 00:45:28,852

Yeah, reach out to them.

620

00:45:28,852 --> 00:45:38,732

Simple email, say, hey, like would love to give you a box of our latest and greatest in

exchange for the rights to use this video you already put out.

621

00:45:38,872 --> 00:45:38,992

Right?

622

00:45:38,992 --> 00:45:41,032

And that could get you the last bit.

623

00:45:41,032 --> 00:45:41,172

Right?

624

00:45:41,172 --> 00:45:46,112

So I think if you do that consistently, you could get 90 % of the way there, right?

625

00:45:46,112 --> 00:45:48,944

Without having, you know, without going crazy, I think.

626

00:45:49,327 --> 00:45:50,513

Hahaha

627

00:45:50,922 --> 00:45:52,452

That's a beautiful thing.

628

00:45:53,113 --> 00:45:54,063

Not going crazy.

629

00:45:54,063 --> 00:45:55,514

That is a beautiful thing.

630

00:45:55,514 --> 00:46:05,699

What do you think to this idea of some of the stuff that I've seen recently coming up on

my feed is sort of, they're almost pushing into AI.

631

00:46:05,699 --> 00:46:08,290

So they've got like, um what did I see?

632

00:46:08,290 --> 00:46:15,884

Two grizzly bears sat by like chatting away, you know, like this sort of grizzly bear

jokes and it was tied into their product somehow.

633

00:46:15,884 --> 00:46:19,345

Maybe one of them was wearing their branded t-shirt or something.

634

00:46:20,046 --> 00:46:20,967

What about that?

635

00:46:20,967 --> 00:46:22,170

kind of thing.

636

00:46:23,094 --> 00:46:29,009

I think that that plays a role in what I was talking about in terms of ad diverse.

637

00:46:29,369 --> 00:46:31,892

You don't want the whole account to be that.

638

00:46:31,892 --> 00:46:32,492

Right.

639

00:46:32,492 --> 00:46:40,339

But certainly as a, as, as, as a, as a piece of the mix, certainly, I think I would a

hundred percent test to test that in.

640

00:46:40,339 --> 00:46:40,819

Right.

641

00:46:40,819 --> 00:46:42,811

I mean, I often use this analogy.

642

00:46:42,811 --> 00:46:44,242

It's like cooking a dish.

643

00:46:44,362 --> 00:46:44,683

Right.

644

00:46:44,683 --> 00:46:47,624

So let's say what you're talking about AI video.

645

00:46:47,624 --> 00:46:49,537

So let's say that's a black pepper, right?

646

00:46:49,537 --> 00:46:51,558

You don't want the whole dish to be black pepper.

647

00:46:51,736 --> 00:46:55,579

But you do want to sprinkle the here and there with everything else, right?

648

00:46:55,579 --> 00:46:59,863

So maybe the soup stock, right?

649

00:46:59,863 --> 00:47:01,965

The main thing might be your founder videos.

650

00:47:01,965 --> 00:47:05,328

Like for your brand, that might be the right thing to have the majority of your content.

651

00:47:05,328 --> 00:47:06,889

Again, every brand's different.

652

00:47:06,889 --> 00:47:12,634

uh But that might be the main component and everything else is 10, 20%.

653

00:47:12,634 --> 00:47:13,164

Right?

654

00:47:13,164 --> 00:47:14,856

But you need a diversity.

655

00:47:14,856 --> 00:47:20,096

And certainly there are consumers that react very well to that type of video.

656

00:47:20,096 --> 00:47:22,500

And certainly there are consumers that don't.

657

00:47:22,642 --> 00:47:26,278

So that's why you need a little bit of everything.

658

00:47:26,792 --> 00:47:35,636

Yeah, and the other thing I suppose listening to you talk about what I've seen is a lot of

people have done things like founder stories or founder videos and gone well that's not

659

00:47:35,636 --> 00:47:45,870

works engagement was was low and I think what I've learned from watching Zach is Is it low

because the founder story doesn't work or you just not write the found the right format to

660

00:47:45,870 --> 00:47:47,761

present it?

661

00:47:47,761 --> 00:47:54,944

Or maybe you need to wear a tea towel or whatever it is There might be some tweaks and the

engagement just sort of skyrockets from there

662

00:47:56,384 --> 00:48:01,468

I think I'm a big fan of this interview talk going, actually, you need to do a lot of

experiments.

663

00:48:01,468 --> 00:48:06,212

Don't just try it once and it's going to be put in the bin forever.

664

00:48:06,993 --> 00:48:11,376

You've got to try a lot of different variations to try and figure it out by the sounds of

things.

665

00:48:12,214 --> 00:48:17,381

Yes, and your variations need to be going in some sort of direction, right?

666

00:48:17,381 --> 00:48:21,787

Because if all the variants are all very similar to each other, you're not really learning

anything, right?

667

00:48:21,787 --> 00:48:25,082

You need to do a zig and then you also need a zag.

668

00:48:25,082 --> 00:48:30,278

And based on that, you could figure out what's the right path to walk toward.

669

00:48:32,164 --> 00:48:33,505

fantastic.

670

00:48:33,925 --> 00:48:38,057

Edward, listen, we are reaching the stage of the show where I'm going to ask you a couple