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Patrick McGrail is in his second season as a men's basketball assistant coach at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri.

McGrail joined WashU after holding the positions of assistant coach and most recently associate head coach at Rhodes College from 2018 to 2024.

That was his second stint at Rhodes as he was also an assistant for two years from 2013 to 2015.

Between his stints at Rhodes, McGrail served as the athletic coordinator at his alma mater of Fenwick High School in Northern Illinois and was the assistant varsity basketball coach helping to guide the team to the 2017 state championship game.

McGrail played his college basketball at Rhodes where he was the 2013-2014 Southern Athletic Association Defensive Player of the Year and finished his career in the SAA record books with a top 3 point percentage of 47.8.

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You'll want to take some notes as you Listen to this episode with Patrick McGrail, men's basketball assistant coach at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Sunkel this morning, but I am pleased to be joined by Patrick McGrail, Men's Basketball Assistant coach at Washu.

Patrick, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.

Mike, thanks for having me.

I'm excited to be here and excited to talk a little bit about my career, but more so just talk hoops, you know, and absolutely looking forward to it.

And I know that you've had a lot of experience in your career, both as a player and as a coach.

I think a lot of the things that are going to be relatable for our audience want to start by going back in time to when you were a kid.

Tell me about growing up, your first experiences with the game of basketball.

What made you fall in love with it?

Yeah, that's actually something I haven't thought about in a while is like the, the true origin of when you fall in love with the game.

And the first thing I think about being a kid in the suburbs of Chicago, I didn't, you know, I was born in the 90s, so didn't see like, I don't have vivid memories of those 90s bowls, but all the championship VHS at the time and those, you know, filled the household, were always playing and I, that's where I just became obsessed was watching all of those, all the, the Air Jordan, the, those videos, I think Michael Jordan's Playground.

I don't know if that resonates with that.

Oh yeah, anybody that's gonna listen to this and, and just all the highlights and, and, and the way that they, the storytelling of those videos and then, you know, it's, it's stuff that you can't script in Hollywood, like that whole era of basketball.

And that's.

I, I just, I found myself watching those constantly replicating those moments, those moves and playing in every, every driveway, whether it be my own or, or family members and, and kind of that's where, that's where I knew that I loved the game and I wanted to, I wanted to work at it.

I, I love playing other sports.

I played, you know, football, baseball, soccer, just like most people and, but basketball was, was the one that I always had a drive to, to continue to pursue and, and want to be good at.

And I wasn't good at it.

That was, I think that was part of it too.

Right.

You'd like, you know, you're playing, you're usually drawn to the stuff that, that frustrates you and, and you want to keep chipping away at and, but those, those 90s bowls and then, and then, you know, I think like, like a lot of coaches, you, you, I, I remember going to, I lived in Chicago for a good bit of my childhood and I also lived in Northern California and XL basketball camp run by Frank Alaco out there in, in the, in the Bay Area.

I, that's where I learned to play.

Like, that's where I learned the fundamentals of shooting where I actually like took something from a camp and, and, and did it all summer long and saw improvement and, and got that, you know, taste of success and, and, and want and being like oh maybe I can do this and, and that just you know, kind of sparked the, you know, the continued progress and the continued drive to play in high school and, and luckily enough found a, found a college that, that, that I could play at.

So that's kind of the, a brief little background.

I guess you could never go wrong with having Michael Jordan as your inspiration, let's put it that way.

I know that yeah, I'm a little bit old, I'm a little bit older than you.

So my first Jordan memory is the, the most vivid one is the shot against Georgetown in the NCAA tournament.

And from that point on you fall in love with just again everything about the guy from you know, you talk about trying to do things or seeing somebody that you're like I'm never going to be able to do that.

And just as a, as a ground bound, slow six three white guy who could shoot a little bit, the idea of trying to, trying to ever imagine that I could emulate Michael Jordan.

You know, that's a, that's a way far out there type of goal that was not realistic in any way shape or form for me but to the same degree that Michael Jordan inspired you.

You know, I grew up, born in 1970, so as, as Jordan is, is coming up, I'm right in the, you know, my middle school, high school peak years of, of being a basketball fan and yeah, there's nothing better.

Going back and watching, you know, watching the doc, you know, watching the last dance and, and reliving that when that thing ended I was like what?

There's, there's, there's got to be more of this.

Like I, I could just sit and watch this for hours and hours and hours and hours and feel like the time hadn't passed at all.

So I can certainly relate to you, to your love of, of Michael Jordan and how that got you started in the game and, you know, and then obviously, from a basketball camp standpoint, you know, things are a little bit different now in terms of how basketball is.

Is played at the youth level.

And the camps, they're still around, but certainly probably not as prevalent in terms of kids attending them.

In the same way, everybody wants to play, right?

Everybody wants to be on a team now when you're in third, fourth, fifth, sixth grade and play, as opposed to necessarily working on your skill development, those old school camps and that kind of stuff.

So as you think about yourself and your development and obviously, as you said, going to camp kind of inspired you, like, hey, maybe I can do this.

As he learned from good coaches and you get that kind of exposure.

As you started to take the game more seriously and it became your number one sport, how'd you go about getting better?

What was your process for becoming a better player?

Would you say you had an organized plan or was you just.

Or were you kind of just like, hey, haphazard.

I get in the gym and I get shots up.

I try to find games.

I. I don't know if either one of those better describes sort of your path to becoming a good player.

Yeah, the biggest, I mean, when I was getting into, you know, probably the most.

The more serious stages for me probably started seventh, eighth grade and on.

And I just, like, I remember playing, you know, when you're in your junior high, there wasn't the.

It was like the beginning stages of like the, the trainer, like, kind of era and like very beginning stages.

And it was more.

So an AAU was pretty.

I mean, it, it was relevant and it was.

And it was, it was prevalent in the area, but it was still.

It was kind of more taboo.

Like, it was kind of a little taboo for some high school coaches.

Like, I remember, you know, some coaches just be like, no, you're, you're, you're not playing a.

Like, if you play aau, that's not really something that we want you to do, and we want you to go to our summer camp or we want you to play on our, you know, high school summer.

Like, kind of conglomerate of kids that are going to go to the same high school and play in a summer league and kind of build up.

You know, you're getting ready for high school, you're not getting ready for the exposure that AAU would bring.

And so for me, it was more.

I mean, I played as much as I could with my friends.

Like, I don't really.

I had in eighth Grade.

And in ninth grade, when I did.

I'm really an eighth, when I was on a, like, quote unquote, AAU team, like, I.

Those coaches, we would do individual stuff, but it wasn't like, hey, I got this separate trainer on the side who gave me an organized routine.

It's like, hey, come in, like, kind of like a college setup of like, hey, come in 30 minutes before practice, and let's work on your shot and let's work on your handle.

And then, you know, we're gonna.

We're gonna.

We're gonna practice for the next couple hours.

So.

So it was very, like, minimal, organized training.

It was really.

I mean, it was.

I became obsessed with just form shooting.

Probably a little bit too much to the detriment of my ball handling, but I would go out and I would pick spots and do my form shooting.

Every time I was on a court, I would form shoot and then I would hit the five spots and get as many shots up as I could there, and then just replicate whatever I saw on the videos that I just mentioned with Michael Jordan and guys that I probably shouldn't have been replicating.

And then eventually it was the JJ Reddicks that were pretty more comparable.

And then when I got into high school, like, that's when you just.

You have access to.

And then, like, you know, the shooting gun became like my best friend.

Like, that was, you know, the.

As.

As organized as I probably got was, hey, we're gonna.

We're gonna get a certain number of reps on the.

On the shooting gun, and then I'm gonna get with, you know, if there are teammates there, like, we'll get together and we'll.

We'll play ones, we'll play twos, we'll play threes.

But, you know, if anybody else, you know, that was probably something that I wish I had.

Like, looking at what I tell our players now is we.

We hey, come in and do stuff together.

I wish I was more of like a, hey, let's have some ideas and like, you know, work on some.

Some skills, but it was really just more organic play and.

And it was just kind of like, let's go.

Let's go compete and.

And do it, do it that way.

But.

But yeah, I wouldn't say without.

Like, I had a. I had a pretty organized shooting routine, but other than that, I was, you know, everything else came with Mike, the coaches, right?

Whatever.

Whatever.

I was.

Being.

Being coach wherever I was at, and then, you know, the occasional kind of one off training experiences that I had either with and it became more like my junior and senior year of high school.

I would, I remember my senior year I went and started, you know, working with a trainer pretty regularly and had that routine.

But, but the majority of, of that, those early years were just on my own and trusting high school coaches and, and club coaches and, and going from there and working on what I felt like.

I, I almost feel like today that for players, if you're trying to do things on your own, right, it's almost overwhelming when you go on and look and you're like, hey, I want to come up with a new shooting drill.

And you go on and you can find 6 billion shooting drills on whether you're on YouTube or you're on Twitter.

It's almost overwhelming.

It's overwhelming as a coach, as an adult to try to look at that stuff.

I can only imagine for like a 12 year old kid who says to himself, hey, I really want to get better.

Let me find some drills that I can work on.

You go and you search and you're like, whoa, holy cow.

There's like a million different things that you can find and try to try to sort out, like, hey, what should I be doing?

What's real and, and what's imagined.

So yeah, I think people come to it.

You know, when you start talking about how do you improve, how do you improve your game, everybody kind of has a different path to, to what works.

And ultimately the more you have the ball in your hands and the more you're doing things, you know, you can be, you can be, you can be super organized over here, you could be more haphazard over here and playing pickup and doing things.

And if you got the ball in your hands, there's a good chance you're going to improve and, and get better and move in the direction that you want to go.

So when you think about yourself as a high school player, what's your favorite memory that sticks out for you from playing high school basketball?

Favorite memory, one pops of mine, but it's got a bad end.

So I had, I, I transferred school.

So I, I started my high school career at De La Salle High School in Concord, California.

So I was there freshman, sophomore year, and then my family, we ended up moving back to the Chicagoland area for my junior year.

So I finished high school at Fenwick High School.

And so I was the new, at Fenwick, I was the, the new kid.

And that's kind of where I felt like we had a shoot.

Like we did, we had shooting guns at Dale, we had, we Had a ton of shooting guns at D. We were all.

They were all.

We were all about it there.

And then I just remember coming in and to Fenwick, and I was like, I.

It was a first practice.

I didn't know anybody.

I pull out the shooting gun, I put it to set it up, and guy, like, guys were like, oh, we never, like, no one's really ever used it before.

And I was like, this is all I know how to do.

And so that was like my.

My starting point there.

And that was kind of a fun memory because, like, I got, like, guys came over, we started doing stuff together.

I was like, all right, we're.

We're.

I'm, you know, I fit in a little bit with these guys.

Right.

Right.

My junior year, I hadn't done anything like, you know, I.

Trying to just, you know, come off the bench and, you know, make a mark and.

And we're playing our crosstown rival oprf, and I hadn't played the whole game, I think maybe like a little bit in the first half.

And I. I come in, we're down three.

I come in for the last.

There's like six seconds left, and we're.

We got to go the length of the court.

And, you know, they stick me in a corner and.

And I'm waiting there, and our point guard gets loose, gets downhill, finds me hit the.

Hit the three to tie the game.

And I was like, all right.

Like, I'm like, if people like, you know, you get your ego boost of, hey, I'm.

I. I made.

I had a moment and, you know, at my new school, like, and it was really exciting.

We ended up losing in overtime, which sucks.

But.

But that was like, that, like, you know, my, you know, if you've.

You have some, you know, credibility, like, you feel some credibility to the work that you put in.

And then you got guys, you know, texting you after the game being like, hey, like, that was, you know, that's, you know, a big time shot.

Like, you're gonna, you know, stick with it.

You're gonna keep, you know, you're gonna keep contributing to our unit.

And like, you.

You feel pulled in.

So that was a.

A definitely, like, feel.

Feel good moment.

And another really cool moment as well was playing like we played that same year.

Yeah.

My junior year, we played at Farragut High School, which is where Kevin Garnett went to high school.

And they got the big Garnett mural.

It's a kind of.

It's a old, like, downtown Chicago setting.

And it's.

It was Intense environment.

It's a state.

It's a regional semifinal game and.

And just a big time went like one of our.

Mike Black who went played at Albany is a coach at assistant coach at Bradley right now.

And he had one of the, one of the more impressive moments like.

Of that I've seen live of and, and just.

It's just cool like you know, as a coach, it's.

You're.

You're watching those moments more than you're being a part of them, right?

Just thinking about like, about you know, those, those moments as a player of like appreciating like what you're, you know, you're part of like some, some awesome moments in your high school that other, other people had, you know, games that they're still talking about.

And then Tam with like the Proviso west tournament was.

It's unfortunately kind of is kind of dissipated here in recently.

But that was you know the, the premier holiday tournament in, in Illinois.

And my team, Xavier Humphrey went on played at Winona State.

He had like, he had 30, maybe 39 against.

He played for the Sixers if he's escaping my head.

But like it'll come to me after the podcast, of course.

But of course it was my guest of private Proviso west.

And yeah, and it's Saturday night, you know, prime time game.

And just like being a part of those big moments, you know, in high school and there's nothing like it because you got to, you're, you know, the energy of, you know, Fenwick.

We had a great alumni base.

We had, you know, we had really, really great student support and, and, and they know when the big games are and you feel that as a, as a player and to, to be a part of moments where you can deliver and your teammates deliver was, you know, it gives you goosebumps like thinking about it.

But yeah, those are some, some good times for sure.

Those are some good ones.

There's nothing like high school basketball when you have a great crowd and it's a meaningful game, whether that's a conference game, whether it's a state tournament game, there just is nothing like it as a player.

And then I was fortunate enough I was an assistant varsity coach at the beginning of my teaching career for 12, 13 years and had an opportunity to coach in some of those environments.

And it just feels different when, when you have a big crowd in a high school game as both a player and a coach, there's, there's nothing like that.

The school spirit side of it, the, the camaraderie amongst Amongst the players.

It, it really does provide some special moments and obviously it sounds like it did for you.

Tell me about the process for getting to Rhodes.

What does it look like for you making that decision?

When did you know that you wanted to play?

Was it was playing college basketball always a dream?

And then how did it, how'd you make it a reality and then end up making that decision to go to Rhodes?

Yeah, so I didn't, I had a far better college career than high school career.

So the, the navigating, you know, where if that was going to be reality at all was a little challenging.

And so I wasn't, you know, I was not heavily recruited out of high school.

I really had to, to go out and be proactive.

And, and so it was, I mean, back then it was, can you find somebody to make it, make a dvd, like my mom or me and my mom, like, we're, you know, we had to, you know, pay a guy to make a highlight tape.

And, and then you got to ma to like, physically mail it.

There's no.

And, and I know, I feel like, I don't feel like I'm that old, but like, if I feel really old right now.

But, and so I remember mailing it to and at my, my college or my, my high school.

We had a college counselor in our high school.

Like, and then, so I sat down with him and I knew I wanted to play college basketball.

I wanted to continue, you know, that that was the dream.

And, but I knew I wasn't, you know, I was luckily like, self aware that, you know, five, ten shooting guards isn't getting a scholarship to, I'm not Duke.

And those are, yeah, that's, we, I, I knew where I stood and so, and I always kind of, I wanted to go to a small school.

I, I, I wasn't really, I didn't have a desire to go to a large state school.

So he sat down, he gave me a list of liberal arts colleges, stuff that fit what I was looking for.

And, and Rhodes happened to be on that list.

So I sent the, you know, I sent the DVDs out to, to those institutions.

I, you know, I was the, I was the, I was the annoying recruit that was like, hey, coach, I'm going to, you know, DePaul, I'm going to come to campus and I'm going to check out the campus and the coach around, like, would love to meet you guys.

And you know, I get the, you know, the third assistant and he shows me around and, and that was that.

And so, but Rhodes, the.

The assistant there, Thad Phillips.

Shout out Thad.

And he was the head coach at.

I never know how to pronounce it.

Kuka College or K, you know, the New York school.

But he was the assistant at the time, and.

And he just.

He reached out, he called me every Sunday and was like.

And was really interested.

And that was the only school I visited.

And I went on a DePauw visit basically on my own.

I went up to St. Norbert's you know, and saw a game against Grinnell that was a riveting experience of.

Of that style play.

And for sure, yeah, that was.

Was not expecting that.

And no.

No idea about Grinnell?

No idea what you were walking into?

Like, yeah, no idea.

Me and my dad walked in.

It was a frigid, like, December day.

We had an off day in high school.

I was like, let's go check out an orbit game.

And.

And Grinnell's got one guy at half court waiting to play offense.

But.

But yeah, and so I went down the roads and I went for a visit and played.

Played pickup with the guys, you know, met with.

Met with the assistant.

And.

And I knew I wanted to go away from.

For school.

I didn't want to stay close to home.

I wanted to experience a different part of the country or just, you know, be.

Be a little bit further away.

And so the south was appealing.

And.

And then after leaving, I was like, that place is, you know, if you just.

You got a gut feeling.

And it was an interesting case too.

So at the time, the.

Herb Higelman who was the.

He was 34 year legendary head coach at Rhodes, he had retired.

And going into like.

So right after.

That's the.

My senior year of high school, right, Going into my freshman year.

So that.

So Thad was, you know, he was, you know, putting himself in a position to potentially get that job and then to still, like, recruiting and doing all that.

And.

And he ended up not going to school that I mentioned.

And.

And so I was in, like, a.

Interesting spot.

I got a call from Andrew Gallo, who was, you know, like the stud sophomore on the team, and.

And he's like, hey, like, we're gonna be going through this hiring process.

I'll keep you up to date.

And so, because I may first, I was like, I'm going to Roads.

I'm just gonna.

I'm gonna figure it out.

Like, that was my kind of.

My plan is like, I love the school.

I love the guys.

And I think, you know, I was like, I think I can play here.

Like, that was like, I think I, I got a chance to.

If I work hard, and I think I had a chance to figure it out there.

And so I didn't know who my head coach was going to be.

And he, you know, he gives me a call when they're done with the search, and it's like, he's like, oh, like Mike DeJoria is gonna be our head coach.

And I was like, I don't know who that is, but it sounds good.

Like, I'll see you in August and let's do it.

And so let's do it.

I was great.

And, and so.

And yeah, that's how I, I ended up there and, and had a.

Had an unbelievable experience.

I loved it there.

How much did you know about D3 basketball before you started the process of looking at schools?

Like, had you seen many D3 games?

What was your level of knowledge, would you say, of D3 basketball as, like, a high school junior?

Oh, gosh.

As a high school junior, probably extremely minimal.

Like, I, I didn't.

I'd never been to a Division 3 game.

Like, even I knew my dad went to Rockford College, so.

And they were a.

Well, they weren't D3 at the.

They're NAIA when he went to school there, but they had transitioned to Division 3.

So I was like, Like, I knew that, but I didn't know really any until, like, my, My counselor said, hey, here's a.

These are, you know, small colleges that have.

Right.

You know, that you can go play at.

I really had no real sense of it.

Yeah, yeah.

No.

And.

And you are, far as I'm sure you well know, you were far from unusual, especially at the time when you're kind of trying to make those decisions.

Right?

I mean, clearly with the, with the Internet explosion and YouTube and stuff.

I'm sure kids today are at least a little bit more familiar with Division 3 basketball when you're recruiting them and talking to them now.

But I think back to when you were being recruited or go back a long time ago to when I was being recruited.

And, yeah, nobody knew anything about.

You know, I've talked to a number of coaches that they're like, yeah, we talk to kids and they're like, yeah, we've never, Never even seen a Division 3.

Never even seen a Division 3 game, let alone thinking about, hey, these are places that I might actually consider going to school and, and playing basketball.

So obviously you had a really nice career at Rhodes.

What were you thinking about academically as you got into school?

And at that point Was coaching at all on your radar here during your playing career or were you still just kind of focused on being a player?

No, coaching was on the radar.

Probably my junior year of high school I knew I wanted to be a coach.

I was, that was the first time I probably like verbalized it to somebody else.

I like my head coach at the time I was like, I wanna, but my plan was I wanted to, you know, be the classic, like teach history and, and be a high school basketball coach.

And that was kind of what I, that was my goal at the time.

And so when I went into, yeah, when I went into school I was thinking political science and, and history and, and that's where I sort of started my path and then actually ended up.

Well, I ended up just having like a curiosity about psychology and I didn't take any psychology courses in high school.

I went to a, a lecture going into my or I heard, I heard the head of the department of AT Rhodes, I heard her speak at one of our freshman orientation things and I was like, oh this, this, you know, this seems like something that I would like to, you know, sort of check out and pursue and actually ended up not taking psych until second semester my freshman year.

And it was like this is what, it's different.

I was like, I don't really, you know, like I, I, I, if this is intriguing enough, I was like, I feel like I don't have to be a history teacher and a basketball coach.

Like I might as well just pursue something that, you know, interests me.

It seems like psychology kind of makes sense for coaching and trying to figure out what's going in my players heads and how to motivate them, figure out what's going on in my head and, and, and sort of go on like kind of go from there for how to motivate people and, and, and it feel, felt like it sort of fit and, and so that's what I, I end up majoring in, in that, in that department.

And yeah, so not the, and we talk about recruiting all the time.

Just like that's what college is kind of all about.

And we might be, you know, might be biased because that's kind of our path of like hey, you don't have to have it all figured out.

Like you can, you know, it's the, you know, you have a great opportunity to pursue.

Like for me pursuing psych was, you know, not in the cards in high school.

But you know, you go to, you go to a university or college, you got, you have way more access to a lot of different avenues.

And so kind of happy it turned out that way because I like telling that story.

I like that, you know, you don't have to.

In the.

In a world of, you know, hasn't changed.

There's plenty of, you know, when we were going to school, there's the group that has it all figured out.

They got the plan down to the second and, and, you know, you don't have to, you know, put that much pressure on yourself.

Right.

You can.

True.

You got time.

You got time and.

And you got a short period of time, but you got, you know, you.

You need to experience different things and, and figure out you don't want to miss out on anything.

And so I'm glad that was.

I like talking to.

To families and.

And players about that because, you know, I think.

I think it resonates with the parents.

I think the parents, you know, they.

They feel that, but like, you know, the kids.

You don't have to.

It's okay.

Like, it's okay to not just, you know, be like, have your.

Have the next 40 years figured out.

Yeah, exactly.

The line I always like to use.

I use it on my own kids, and I use it to use it with other families and kids.

I'm always like, Look, I'm 55 years old and now I can add a line that I just retired, and I still don't know what I want to do with my life.

So it's, you know, you certainly.

I certainly didn't have it figured out at 18, and I. I barely feel like I have it figured out at 55.

So.

Yeah, I do think that the ability to be young and to be able to have different directions that you can go and give yourself options and be able to take a course here, take a course there, and see different things and see different perspectives and then see, hey, where do my interests lie?

You got a lot of developing to do from age 18 to age 22 or 23 and to.

Yeah, there are some people that are in that cohort that you talked about that I want to be a doctor.

I want to be whatever it is.

And I think those people are fewer and further between now probably than it's ever been.

I think you.

It's just there's so many different avenues out there with the world and kids, because of the access that they have to information, certainly compared to when I was in high school.

You know, they're.

They're just way more aware of all those different paths that you can.

That you can take in order to get where.

Get where you want to go.

So as you're playing, are you having conversations with your coaching staff about, hey, when I graduate, I really want to get into coaching, and are you starting to talk to them about what the career looks like, what it would take, building your network?

Obviously, I know you end up back at Rhodes after you graduate, but just talk a little bit about your relationship with your college coaching staff and how that helped you not only just to get back on the staff when you graduate at Rhodes, but then also just moving forward in your coaching career.

Yeah, I, I, I vote I voice that I did want to, like, Mike knew that I wanted to be a coach, and, and I really didn't have a great.

I talked more with him about as I was going, like, sophomore, junior year, about, more about, like, teaching.

Like what, like, like teaching opportunities that could have, you know, potential coaching opportunities and, and so, like, certain programming that would make sense.

I know there was like, you know, a prep school that I was looking at and trying to connect with their people and network with them as, you know, potential landing spots after graduation.

But for the most, and for the most part, I wasn't like, I didn't get into much of the networking.

I kind of just made sure that I was around basketball people outside of the school year.

And so always, like, I would always go home and work Sunwick Camp and, you know, build relationships there.

And then I was working.

I, I, who I trained with, that's kind of my college years is when I really started to like, specifically be organized and trained with, with a, with somebody and, and it trained with Matt Miller, who now is the founder CEO of M14 Hoops in Aurora, Illinois.

And so I would work with him, I would work his, his camps as well.

And so that was kind of my foundation of one, like, figuring out, like, starting to coach.

Like you're coaching and doing drill work in, in those camps and then, and then just being connected to those people and saying, hey, like, you know, when I'm done playing, I'm really, I'm, I want to, I want to stay in basketball.

And, and so that was kind of my, that was my mindset.

And then I ended up, you know, after my senior year playing, I got on with, like, a local AAU team and was coaching one of their, like, one of their younger teams as well, and just trying to, you know, stay involved and, and start to build that part of, of of my skill set moving forward as I was becoming closer to being a coach.

But I always had, like, I still always had that mindset of of finding a high school spot.

And then it kind of changed.

My senior going in my, as it got closer to graduation, it was starting to get more and more real.

I didn't have, I didn't know where I was going to end up and I really thought I was going to end up at M14.

So M14 started to grow and, and then he was going to have opportunities to be a trainer and then they didn't have teams at the time, but just I was like, all right, like, you know, worse comes to worse, if I can't find a high school job, like I'm gonna go and, and work for him and, and be a trainer and, and work at that and I'll, I'll kind of figure out what the next steps are after that.

And I, I just got, I got lucky.

Like, I knew, like, I guess I had enough trust with Mike and, and the staff and one of the part time guy or part time guy who was there my senior year, he was getting out of coaching, he was moving and so he came to me just randomly one day said, hey, I think we're going to have a position open and if, if I know you want to get into coaching, like if you want it, like, it's yours.

And I never like thought of myself as a college coach.

I was like, right, yeah, I was like, I can't say, like I can't say no to that.

Right?

Like I gotta, I, you know, I, you know, I love the school.

I, you know, Mike is awesome, like just the best.

And, and I was like, yeah, like, I'll, I'll, I would, I'm, I'm in, I'm sold.

Like, you don't have to say anything else.

And so that's how I got, got my start.

And it was just right after, right after graduation, you know, found a place in Memphis and, and, and then we were rolling from there.

So once you take that job, obviously it's a change, right, because you had kind of been mentally preparing yourself for I'm going to be a teacher, which is going to be my main profession and then I'm going to be a high school coach.

And you could probably flip flop those.

I'm sure there's some high school coaches that would flip flop the coaching and the teaching, but teaching is going to take up a bulk of your time and your career in that way.

And then all of a sudden, boom, now it's flipped and you're a college coach.

So the, the teaching position, the day to day of teaching kind of goes out the window.

And now you're.

I know you're not all basketball all day because there's a lot of different things that you have to do in coaching that are involving coaching basketball, but you now become a full time basketball coach.

What did you love about it right from the start?

Like, how did you know after a month on the job that you were like, I found, you know, I found my home in coaching.

I found what I want to do.

The first project Mike gave me was basically doing a skills breakdown like of what we.

To give to the guys.

You know, hey, this is what you should be doing this summer to help you.

And our level is so diff, like we can't get on the floor.

That's what's probably it frustrates me the most is like I, I.

Because I love that component of hey, like I want to be on the floor one on one or small group and like, and, and help guys, you know, improve and build confidence and so but like that like just the, the accomplishment I felt from you know, videoing, putting together like a little video series of hey, these are the, this is like the progression of skill development or player development that we need you to do.

Like and, and how it fits into, you know, what we do offensively.

I was like, like, I was like this is fun.

Like, this is.

I could do this all day.

And, and even though it wasn't on the floor, but it was just like hey, that, that same component of.

And we're helping the guys, like giving them something to do in the summer and, and then app like the application like the translation to, you know, the what like why we're doing this, why we.

Why we.

These things are important and you know, see how you guys did it in a game, you know, the year before and now the new guys are coming in, they're seeing like, okay, this is what, what we're about.

And like just the sense of accomplishment of like getting like a project like that done.

That was, that was like when I knew like, okay, this is, you know, this isn't work.

You know, like it's work but it's not like this is Right, right.

You know, this is not, I don't know, a chemistry project or something.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And then, and just like the, the being.

You're being like an.

I like love being an assistant coach and I've been, I've been lucky to be roads.

We had great guys and like, and so, and, and like relating to them.

It was like, it was easy for me.

Like, I was just like a really like comfort Zone of, you know, they could come to me and, like, I knew everything they were talking about.

Like, I knew everything from, you know, the classes they were taking to their daily schedules to, you know, what they're doing on the weekends.

And, like, I, like, you know, that was.

That was the hardest part.

I was like, I gotta separate myself now, right?

Like, six months.

Six months.

Six months ago.

That's what I was doing.

That's what I was doing.

I was doing the exact same thing.

So, yeah, I get it.

But that, like, relatability and, like, you know, them being able to, you know, and then me.

To just be like, I. I just.

I had so much pride in the program.

Like, it was just so.

It was so easy for.

It was a really easy transition.

And so.

Yeah, but I mean.

And that first, like, there's nothing, like, you got to get over.

Like, the first time you're playing.

Shawani was our big rival.

So, like, the first time you're not playing in that game, it's like, it hits you a little bit, but, you know, the juices get flowing and as a coach and you're like, there is something.

There is something a little bit extra about.

Hey, like, you get that feeling of, like, I'm still in this.

You know, I'm still, like, I'm, you know, I'm graduating.

All my teammates, everybody else, they're, you know, working, working jobs and.

And, you know, or, you know, I was sitting in front of a computer screen, but I get to watch basketball.

Like, they're, you know, doing, you know, spreadsheets and all that stuff, and.

And, like, I'm, you know, spending Fridays and Sundays, like, in the gyms that we used to compete in.

And, like, and I get to still compete in those gyms.

And so, yeah, that's.

That's, you know, it was an easy sell for me.

Was there anything surprising?

When I always think it's interesting, guys who go from their playing career to being a coach on the staff, where you're making that transition, obviously you kind of address the idea of, you know, hey, it was easy to relate to the guys because you had just been in their shoes, whatever, six months earlier.

But when you step behind that curtain, was there anything that you were surprised?

Like, hey, I didn't realize these guys spent so much time doing this, or, wow, I didn't even know that they did that.

Or was there just.

What was surprising to you that maybe you didn't realize as a player that once you got behind the curtain with your, you know, with your coaching staff, that that surprised you?

Yeah, I think the amount of, like, detailed film work, because as a player and that can get like a little bit not, I think, a little bit monotonous.

And like, you're sitting there, you're like, ah, like, we're what.

Like, it's a little, you know, it's.

It's just different from a player's perspective.

You're anticipating, oh, man, when's.

When's that next play coming up?

And when's, like, you know, coaches, you know, you know, he's picking on me.

Like, they're like, here, you know, and.

And so you.

But from a.

A coaching lens, like, it's completely different.

Like, the amount of work that goes into, you know, pulling clips and what you show and what, you know, what themes you're gonna have and, and you.

You don't think about any.

Like, you're not thinking about the.

The other stuff that the players are thinking about.

Like, you're not, like, we're not picking on anybody.

We're just, you know, we're pulling out, you know, certain.

Certain amount that go.

That went into and especially the scouts, like, the amount that went into what we, you know, the limited, you know, amount of time that's spent showing it to the team, like, how much goes into that.

But I kind of ex.

I. I guess, like, it was a little surprising, but you kind of expect, like, you want to get the coaching.

You're like, oh, we're, you know, grinding film all the time, and you have that, you know, kind of stereotype.

The biggest thing and probably the biggest adjustment for me was I didn't realize how much went into recruiting.

Like, the amount of, like, and.

And, you know, at Rhodes, we were, you know, we.

We're volume recruiting.

Like, so you're sending like, a ton of mailings over, like, an extended period of time.

You're.

And like, the.

I remember, like, looking back at.

They had saved stuff that our coaches did while I was playing.

I was like, man, these guys are doing a lot of, like, yeah, being creative and.

And just the amount of, like, tracking of.

Hey, they go to like, one open gym and like, the notes of, you know, the next class and the next class.

Like, I didn't have any feel for.

Because I wasn't, like, I was barely recruited, so I have no.

Like, I was like, I set out a dvd.

I got a call every couple of Sundays.

I was like, all right, like, I guess that's recruiting.

I mean, I'm sure people can recruit him more than that, but I don't know what that looks like I'm not getting the, you know, I'm not going to start treatment.

So.

So that was the most eye opening thing was like that process and how, you know, how detailed and like thorough all of that was, was really, was really eye opening.

Yeah, I could see that.

Where again, especially when you're talking about at the Division 3 level, right.

It's, I think the thing that a lot of people don't realize is, yeah, you can recruit all year round, but, yeah, you can recruit all year round, right.

So there's the opportunity to do that all year round is great.

And yet the opportunity to do that all year round means that you're constantly on as, as a Division 3 coach and it, it never, it never ends.

I think that's the one thing that I don't even know if I fully grasp that until.

So my son is a sophomore at Ohio Wesleyan and you just realize that, you know, you see the recruiting process that he went through and then, you know, they get to school and then you're talking to them and he's like, yeah, you know, coach had to, you know, as soon as practice was over, he was driving, you know, two hours to go to this high school game or the, you know, he's got, got to get to this next AAU tournament and, and just all the things that, you know, I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but you know, clearly it's just you're coaching the current iteration of your team and yet you still have to be spending all that time and creativity and energy to be able to work on that next class that's coming in and keeping your program sustained no matter, again, no matter what level you're at.

But Division 3 is, is unique just because of, again, the opportunity that you can, you can be doing it all the time, which sort of necessitates that you are, because if you're not, somebody else is going to be doing it.

So I can definitely relate to that, that idea of just the, the recruiting being, being more than what you might have anticipated.

Yeah.

Yep.

Right.

So the next stop after Rhodes, you end up going back to your high school.

So clearly that was maybe the path that you thought you were going to take initially coming out of school before you had the opportunity at Rhodes.

So just talk to me about that transition back to high school.

How, why?

And then what the experience was like at the high school level.

And then we'll transition back to, you know, going back to Rhodes.

So just walk me through the, the, the process of going from being at Rhodes to, to going back to, to Fenwick and, and doing in the role that you were at there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I kind of, like you just mentioned, I, I was kind of going through a.

Because I got, I went from part time my first year at Rhodes and then I got, I got moved up to the full time position my second year, which is, which is awesome.

It was a great opportunity.

And then I kind of got like, like I kind of.

We didn't have a great year and like, I think my confidence got hit a little bit and I kind of, I didn't know.

I still didn't know exactly like what I wanted to, to pursue.

I kind of fell in that mindset of like, I gotta have it all figured.

Like, do I want to be, like, do I want to be a college coach?

Like, do I want to, you know, do I.

Can I get to that point or do I can.

I think, do I think I can get to that point of being a college head coach?

I really like, I, at the time I was like, I'm not really confident, like in my opinion that I can do that.

And like, yeah, and it was unique.

Like, and being at your alma mater and like you have a little bit.

And we had kind of an up and down season but you're like, man, like I didn't feel like I, I helped the guys and I was like, how can I, like, do I need to go learn?

You know, I've been at one place for now, you know, six straight years and with our plane included is like.

And high school and training was still on my mind and so I was like, maybe I, maybe I need to be in a different environment and like learn, like, learn some new stuff and then, and then kind of go from there.

So an opportunity came up late in the summer and I, at my high school, it was a, the community relations coordinator.

Eventually it was an athletic coordinator.

So I was working in the athletic department and then they, and then to be the head sophomore coach and, and then help out and be an assistant on varsity.

And so I accepted that position.

I moved back, moved back home and it was, it was a, it was a really great, like a really great learning experience and it was challenging in like a bunch of different ways.

Our varsity program had an awesome year.

That first year went downstate.

So it was like came into a really good situation there.

And Rick Malnati was the head coach at the time and he had been, you know, a legendary head coach at New Trier and then, and then was on Porter Moser staff at Loyola before coming to Fenwick.

And, and, and he was just, and he was a lot diff.

Like he was a lot different than than Mike and in a lot of, a lot of great way.

Like it was just, it was just a unique to, to have a different perspective like to have a different perspective and, and be around, be around somebody like, like, like Rick.

And so he was like at Rhodes we were very, we were very like system oriented.

We were like hey, we're gonna, we are pacline and we were ball screen continuity and and we were going to be great at both those things.

And, and that's like.

We were like full bore on that.

And, and then in high school it's like, like it's like you got to figure out ways to.

There's just like different.

You got to figure out ways to win in in a multitude of different.

Like you're like hey, the, hey, man to man's not working this right.

Like we're zone.

Like we're gonna switch it up and we're gonna you know, triangle into like we would never think of doing a triangle and two or you know, one, three, one or anything like that.

We're like no, we're, we're gonna be, we're gonna be better at man to man defense than they are at offense and like, and that's what we're gonna live and die by.

And so like just being in a, in a different system and different environment, like that was like, you know, it gets your wheels turning as a coach.

Like, oh man.

Like this is, you know, this is a lot of new stuff that I didn't think about and, and so learning from it.

And then I mean the most valuable experience is just being a, be having to be a head coach and like, you know, level and, and first year was just like I had a great my.

He was the assistant on varsity when I played there.

Denny's Alasko.

And so he, I, I had him.

He came out of retirement for me to be my assistant.

So he had just a plethora of experience and was so cool that to have him, you know, as my right hand man and, and kind of like just teach me the ropes of like, of, of how to be, you know, how to, how to practice plan how to, you know, you know, how to.

How to run a practice.

You know, what, you know, what drills like make sense for this group and what we're trying to do and, and just developing that that process and, and so that was and, and really the best.

You got to find your voice.

Like you don't, you know, you gotta, you know, in that first year, you just, you don't really know what your voice is.

You, like, you want to be respected and you want to, you know, you want to, like, you want to be credible.

And you get caught up in a lot of, like a lot of different stuff as a first year head coach.

You just want to, you know, you don't want to make mistakes.

And then, and it was really like second year, it's like, you know, you settle in and you, you kind of, you figure out what you know, your identity and what, you know, what you care about, what you want to do.

Because at first you're trying to pull from everybody, right?

You're trying to pull from every clinic that you've been to.

You're trying to pull from, you know, the varsity guys.

You're trying to pull from, you know, your assistant.

You're trying to make everybody happy.

And it's like, like, no, what do you, what do you, what do you value and what do you, like, what are you going to emphasize?

What are you going to, like, hold the guys accountable, Accountable for?

And, and if you do those things, you'll figure it out.

And so that second year was really, was really good.

I had a great group of kids and then we had so much fun.

But I just, like, I was like, you know, I kind of found, you know, what, you know, how, like, how to be confident in, like, you know, what you want to do.

And so, and yeah, it was great group of people.

And I really, really like, I look, I look back at those notes and, and I still, I, I gotta get with, I gotta get with Rick because he had so many great set plays.

But yeah, I got his play sheet.

It's.

It goes with me to every job.

And.

But it was a, it was a really, really valuable experience, for sure.

Yeah.

I think I take two things away from what you said.

One is finding your voice is not easy for a young coach.

I, I remember the first time I stepped out on the court as a coach, and I've told this story a couple times, but I was coaching a JV team and stepped out there and whatever, running the first drill.

And I remember standing there by myself as the only, you know, I didn't have an assistant coach, obviously, as a JV coach and watching that first drill and just being like, I just watched like 500 mistakes in five minutes of this drill.

How am I possibly going to, how am I going to do this?

Like, I just, you know, you have, you have no idea.

And Then you're trying to figure out, like you said, what's important to you and who are you and what kind of a coach are you going to be and, and how do you impact players.

And it's all stuff that takes time to be able to figure out.

And then the second thing, and I'm sure that you've reflected on this and will continue to reflect on it as you move throughout your career, but the ability to have spent two years as a head coach, which is a role that not many guys who again, if you start out as a part time division three assistant, right.

Most often the path is you're just kind of moving up that ladder, that chain of command and then eventually maybe you get your opportunity to be a head coach at the college level without ever having been a head coach at any level.

And then all of a sudden you step in and you're like, wait, I got to decide playing time and substitutions and I got to figure all, you know, I got, I got to know when to call time out and all the things that you kind of take for granted, right, that you learn as a head coach.

So I'm sure that you have reflected and will continue to reflect on how valuable the reps that you got, you know, and there's somebody on the outside could say to you, oh come on man, you're coaching a sophomore team, like that's nothing like coaching a college team.

But the reality is, is that those reps as a head coach, I'm sure that you continue to look back on those as being extremely valuable.

And whenever you do eventually get an opportunity to be a head coach at the college level, if that's what you want to do, I mean, you're going to look back on those two years and be like, man, I learned a lot that, that helped me to be at least semi prepared for, you know, for eventual head coaching job at a different level.

I'm sure that's how you're looking at it, right?

Yeah.

100.

I mean and it's all, it's mainly mistakes.

Like it's, you think about the, I mean dealing with like at, in high school that was the biggest culture shock was, I mean at Rhodes we didn't deal with parents at like at all.

Like you're, you know, your kids at college.

Like dude, maybe get a parent email like once.

But nothing rarely in, in high school it's, they're there man.

Like they are, they're there, they're calling you, they have no problem coming up to you.

And like, I'm I don't want to talk.

I'm 24.

I'm like, I don't even like, I don't know how to handle this situation.

And like, and just having like, yeah, and, and really like having confidence and comfortable, like, all right, I, I dealt like with those scenarios.

There's, there's, there's not much that are, that are tougher than that.

And then, and then just being, yeah.

I like, like you just having a voice and, and just, you know, I think I, the things that I draw from it and it's something that I've also learned from Coach Yakim at Washu is like, I'll always, if I, if I become a head coach, I will seek out a older, wiser assistant.

And that's what we had Steve Wilcock on our staff and, and then coach had.

Had chief at, at Oshkosh and, and having Zelasco on my, on my, our two man staff with sophomores.

It was like that, the having somebody that will, will shoot you straight, that's been through every basketball scenario you can think of and can help you think outside the box.

Because once you, you know, now you go through that head coaching experience and you go into, you know, whatever your next head coaching experience, like, I'm gonna know what I want to do.

I'm gonna be like, yeah, I want to do this, this and this.

And then you need somebody to be right there saying, hey buddy, I don't know if we can do that with this crew.

Like, I don't know, maybe that's like you got to think about some other stuff and like, stuff that you get tunnel vision like with, you know, you're like, hey, I got this plan and you know, I've, you know, I'm, you know, however, you know, I got a, plenty of years under my belt at this point.

That's what you're thinking.

And, but having, you know, having the right people around you and having somebody like that, like, that's one thing that I, you know, that's been reinforced then and, and continues to be.

And, but yeah, your, your spot.

I mean those, I, you get very few.

Like, I, I coached a couple of our, we had a couple JV games this past year at Washu and, and even just getting back into like those games, I was like, man, I haven't done this in a while.

Like, when do I call?

When do I call timeout?

Like, man, I gotta get the, like the board.

I guess, yeah, I guess I can use the board on this one.

But yeah, it's, it's so true.

And I would even say I've considered, you know, the last couple years of even, like, seeking out local, like, AAU opportunities.

Like, just be like, just to get though, like, right.

Just to keep working that muscle.

It's like anything else.

Like, you start using that muscle, it's gonna.

It's gonna be gone.

So, yeah, it's definitely culture shock.

I. I was a varsity assistant for, I think, 13 years, where, again, I wasn't making any of those in game decisions.

I'm sitting on the bench, I'm keeping track of fouls, I'm throwing suggestions out.

I'm doing whatever.

And then one year, our JV coach left to take another job, and I ended up taking over the JV team and again, making decisions and being a head coach.

And I was like, man, it's been like 11 years since I did any of this stuff during a game.

And I'm like, I remember, like, for a game or two, being completely overwhelmed, like, forgetting that I had to sub guys out and that I had a bench and what am I doing during time, you know, during timeouts, I'm coming up with, like, I got like, 47 things I'm trying to say to the team, you know, and you just.

You just forget all the little things that it takes to be a head coach and be in control of all the decisions that you make and.

And slowing yourself down so that you can.

You can control it.

Because when you're an assistant, can be sitting there on the bench and you come up with your one great point and throw that in at a timeout or yell it up to your head coach as you're.

They're.

They're standing in front of you.

But when you're the guy that has to make those decisions, those reps are.

Those reps are definitely different.

And.

And I know that they're going to continue to be valuable for you for the rest of your career.

Talk a little bit about the decision then after the experience at Fenwick.

So now you've had the college experience, you've had the high school experience that you kind of thought was maybe going to be your original career path, and you make the decision, go back to Rhodes, back to college basketball, and then eventually you're going to end up at Wash U.

So just tell me about the decision to go back and follow the college coaching career path as opposed to staying on the high school path.

Yeah, yeah.

So I. I kind of hit a point there at.

At Fenwick, where I was also working part time at.

@m14hoop so I was doing the training thing as well and I, I, I, I found myself, I missed Division 3 basketball.

Like that's what that was like.

The main driving force was, you know, I'd sit, I'd be on d3hoops.com I went from not knowing anything about Division 3 basketball to just being an absolute junkie.

And so yeah, and just staying up to date with, I was staying up to date with roads obviously and, and checking in on those guys and knowing, you know, watching their games and tracking box scores, but really just like the entire sport in general, I just loved, I just kept finding myself like going back and, and that's where my focus was.

And then that played in, that was like the, the idea of like, like you mentioned before, the, of basketball being your, your full time job and, and, and kind of getting the realization of like I had a great, you know, I had a really great setup.

Like being at like that is, you know, you're focused on your team in some way shape or form.

It's like not always on the court, but it's recruiting, it's, you know, the admin stuff.

But it's all, you know, you have your, your guys are there to go to school and to hoop and, and not like nothing else.

And then you're there to, to set them up for success and be and, and pour everything you got into that team that season, you know, that program.

So, so I was kind of weighing both like, you know, of what to do next if it was, you know, M14, if that was, if there was an opportunity there to be on the basketball side and that's, you know, all basketball all the time.

But I really just, you know, I couldn't see myself not being a part of a team.

You know, I was like, I really, and not, you know, those, you know, those conference games, like those, like there's those, you know, they had it, they got to your hooks.

Yeah, they're, they had their hooks in me.

And so I was applying like I applied for some assistant jobs and see if anything, you know, kind of developed and then my coaster George was, was at Rhodes and then he got the Colorado Mesa job and so he was going out there and then Tyler Papdenas got the Rhodes head coaching job and I just, I applied for it.

I reached out to Tyler and I said, hey, I'm an alum, I used to coach there, I'm looking to get back into it and would love an opportunity and, and he, you know, I got an interview, I went down there and, and then he he gave me the opportunity to come back.

And so I went back in 20, 2018 and, and was there for six years.

So got, got, got back to the place I started, which is, which, which, which was great.

And it was really just fortunate to get back at it because that's one thing Mike always told us.

Like, it's harder to, you know, once you get out, it's, it's harder to get back in.

And you know, probably, you know, me being young and dumb, I was like, ah, I can figure it out.

Like, I could do it.

Yeah, it'll work out.

Yeah, it'll happen to me, right?

And I was lucky enough that it did.

But, but I know it's, you know, it's not, doesn't happen that way for everybody.

So what did you take from that second experience, those six years as an assistant at Rhodes that now you've taken with you to wash you.

What's something that you learned in that second stint that has made you a better assistant at Washu?

Yeah, so it was a, like, looking back on it, it was a gr.

I mean I worked for three different head coaches at Rhodes and, and that was like, at the time it's, it's, it's very challenging at the time.

Right.

Like, it's like.

So I worked for, you know, Mike was, was I. I was always like, I, like, again, I love Mike George.

I'm the biggest Mike to George fan in the world.

And you know, he's my co.

He gave me an opportunity like, I didn't think I was gonna play college basketball.

So like, I was like just, you know, 100 all in.

And so as a coach, I'm like, you know, I'm all like, whatever Mike says, like he could tell us to do, whatever I'm like, we're doing that and, and so that, and then to, you know, to come back and, and then I worked for Tyler and I worked for Zoe Goodson the last four years I was there and all three extremely different head coaches, which, you know, and for me it was, it was challenging because like, I didn't know.

I, you know, I came back working for one head coach and then that situation doesn't work out.

I don't know if I'm going to be retained on staff when they bring in the new guy.

The eventually.

So, but I don't know what's going to happen there in that position.

So there's a lot of, like, you know, a lot of career experience and, and, and, and situations that I, I take, I, you know, take going into you know, especially, like, in it, like interviewing for Washu and then, you know, just kind of talking about my career is like, I can.

I feel like I'm pretty adaptable.

Like, I, like, that's where I, like, learned.

It's like, how can I.

How can I, you know, fit in with each of these guys at the same place?

Like.

And so, And I, I really learned, you know, how to.

I. I learned at the end of it all, like, kind of how to.

How to humble myself and help, like, help a head coach, I think.

And so, like, being at your alma mater, like, you know, and I've seen roads.

I've been, you know, my first year coaching or being the assistant at Rhodes.

We won 20 games.

We win the.

We won the conference.

We hosted the conference tournament.

We had a great year.

And I've been on.

I've been an assistant coach on team.

We were 5 and 21.

Like, and so seeing both ends of.

Of the spectrum and, and kind of, you know, being able and really with.

With Zo, like, my challenge was like, how can I.

How can I, like, help?

You know, how can I best serve, like, the head coach?

Which I don't think, like, I don't.

I don't know if I had, you know, necessarily that.

That mindset or.

I don't think you're thinking about how to help the head coach.

You're just like, I think I got to do my job and I gotta.

Right, you know, make sure that, you know, I'm getting things done and that, you know, that the guys, you know, like, me and like, whatever else and then.

But I really learned how to use, like, my.

My assistant coaching voice with both Coach Papadinis and, And Coach Goodson and, And that, like, with Coach Papadinis, it was like, he gave me a lot of, you know, he gave me a lot of autonomy.

Like, so when I was able to, you know, say, you know, suggest certain things and drills or what we should do offensively or defensively, I mean, he really, you know, was.

Gave me confidence by just either implementing those things or, you know, taking those things into consideration.

And.

Which was.

Which was great.

And it was a great learning curve because I got to figure out, like, what worked and what didn't.

Like, I got to really evaluate.

Hey, I suggested this and it didn't go so well.

Like, and.

And like, how can.

How can it, you know, how can I change that moving forward?

Like, what were the things?

Like, you can't just suggest something and then, like, you really gotta have a.

You gotta have a plan of how to execute it.

And I didn't, you know, early on I was like, you know, I didn't really have a, have a well thought off thought off plan.

And then with Coach Goodson, he was coming from the Division 1 level and so like my place, like he really leaned on me, I, I think for, you know, just figuring out the Division 3 landscape, like figuring out roads.

Like, you know, I've been, I'm, you know, I had institutional knowledge and so like voicing those things in, in the right way.

Like not being a.

Know it all and not being like a, well, hey, I know about this place.

Like, this is what we should be doing.

It's like, you know, how can you constructively, you know, work with somebody and, and get, you know, get this thing moving in, in a good direction or give, you know, good guidance and, and ultimately my job and assistant's jobs are to lay out the options.

And your head coach wants your, you know, should want your opinion, but it's like just lay out the options and then be able to deliver, like, hey, I think this is the best one and then leave it at that.

Like, you got to put your ego to the side.

You gotta, you gotta get outta your feelings.

Like that's something that, you know, I feel I've had to work on a lot.

Like, it's like, it's not like, don't be offended like to see and take you to your idea like that.

It's again, it's that like, and then, and then now looking back in the high school, like it's on.

It's, it is stressful when it comes down to you and you feel that pressure.

And so learning that at the college level and learning that with, you know, like multiple head coaches is, you know, been, been great for, for my growth and, and I, and helped put me in a position like Joe gave me a lot of responsibilities with our offense and I, I look back on my experiences with, with Coach Papadinis and as a sophomore coach, like, okay, like when I had, you know, when I had control of, you know, the defense, it didn't go well.

Like, and like why didn't it go okay?

So with the offense we got to have a, you, you gotta be able to present this and you got to be able to, you know, have a plan and have, you know, the why and like sell like I had to sell it to, to coach and I had to, you know, really, you know, be confident and knowledgeable and, and then go out and try and execute it.

And so, and it was Just really, you know, it was just really cool to, you know, see how different people do different things and, you know, get, like.

I think we all know, like, you get.

You get into a box of, like, you know, this is the way it's always been done, and then to, like, looking back on it, see, like, hey, like, you know, I never would have, like, with.

With Coach Goodson, like, big fundraiser, like, gets the guys, like, tons of gear and.

And, like, just all those, like, kind of extra things.

And, you know, I'm like a classic, like, Midwestern guy.

I'm like, yeah, you don't need that stuff, right?

Just.

Just get my T shirt, you know, they're good.

Yeah.

And.

And so I'm like.

But, like, there's value to that.

Like, there is, like, a guy, like, that's important.

Like, these guys are playing.

They're playing college sports like, they.

They are doing.

And just, like, being at a place like Roads being a place like Washu, like, they.

They're doing hard things on and off the court.

And, like, they.

They have earned, you know, they've.

They've earned the opportunity for, like, for nice things and, like.

And it's a big deal.

It's a big, like, it.

I don't care.

Every level of college basketball is a big deal.

And so the more that we can give our guys that feeling and they feel like, hey, more than just the people.

We don't need more than the people in this room to care, but it is nice sometimes to know that, you know, more than the people in this room care.

And so that.

That was something that was.

That I kind of learned throughout that process, too, was just those other things that, you know, you don't think about assistant coach.

Like, you're just like, hey, let's.

What's.

What's practice look like, what.

Like, let's get scout ready and.

And let's go compete.

And.

And just having an appreciation for how much more goes on with.

With our head coaches and how those things matter as well.

It was.

That's gonna.

That's gonna be a big part of, you know, my continued growth and.

And, you know, hopefully one day when I'm sitting in that chair, I can remember those things and.

And.

And learn and.

And have.

Have a good.

Good experiences in that position.

So there's so many different ways, I think what you touched on that's so important is that when you work with four different coaches and you work in different programs, what you end up seeing, right, is that there's different ways to play winning basketball.

You Know, I mean, you can, okay, we could do it this way, we could do it that way.

And, and sometimes if you're, if you get stuck in your mentality of thinking like, hey, this is the only way to do it, you realize that, look, I mean, how many, how many schools across the country at all levels of college basketball are being coached exactly the same way?

To answer that question is probably zero.

Right.

Everybody brings something slightly different to the table from a culture, from an X's and O's, everything about it.

And so the exposure that you get to different people then allows you to pick and choose as you say, hey, I really like this, or, man, I don't know about that.

That's not going to be for me when I end up being a head coach.

But the more people that you have an opportunity to work for and work under and see how they operate and what they do, how they do, it just builds your knowledge base of what you're pulling together.

That eventually allows you to find your voice, figure out who you are as a coach, and then eventually when you have your program, then you'll be able to take all those pieces and parts that you've collected along the way and turn them into what Patrick McGrail believes.

Right.

And who he is as a coach.

And you'll have taken bits and pieces of all these guys that you've had an opportunity to work for.

Tell me a little bit about the role at Washu and just kind of how you guys delegate who does what and, and just how, how your staff is organized.

Yeah, so.

So last, last year we had Koshiaka, myself and then coach Wilcott and, and then coach Stecklin.

And so we delegated in a way that coach, Coach Yakim is defensive guy, like defensive genius, like all in on that, like on that side of the ball.

So when we, from a day to day basis, like he's really locked in with, with our defense, with, you know, we get to scouting, it's kind of depending on who's taking that, but that's where, you know, he really hones in on.

And he allowed me right away.

I mean, I came in, you know, to obviously the extremely well established program and, and a team that was in the Sweet 16 the year before I got there.

And so I'm just trying, I was just trying to kind of figure out the lay of the land and.

Right, right.

And just, you know, try not to get away.

Right.

Don't let me be the guy that messes this up.

No, that was exactly what I was doing.

I Was like I'm, I'm making sure that I don't mess up any food orders, any, you know, any itineraries.

Like, right, I'm gonna keep things the status quo.

You guys, the basketball stuff's been fine well before I was here.

So you, you guys got that.

But, but Coach Yakim was great.

Like the offensive side of the ball was something that, that I started to get into more at Rhodes, my last two years at Rhodes.

And, and so coach knew that, you know, as I was coming in and so he really let me, you know, we obviously collaborated on what they were doing the year before and, and what how like his vision of, of, of what it would be like moving forward.

But he really let me come in with, you know, my idea.

He's, he's, he loves fresh ideas from everybody and anybody and so like him that genuine like conversation of hey, what have you done in the past?

What did you like?

Like we, we really connected there and he let me, you know, kind of have, have ownership over, you know, the offensive side of the ball from just like a film standpoint.

Like when we're, you know, in our, in our practice film sessions, like he'll show his defensive correction clips and I'll show offensive ones and, and so that's kind of how the sort of day to day practice stuff is delegated and you know, and you know, we'll get the practice, you know, he'll have me do, you know, the offensive kind of breakdown things.

And right now we're in our eight contact days.

So no, we both kind of collab on our, on our small group sessions.

But he really lets me be creative with those and, and, and those are more offensive focus.

So, so I just, we lets me kind of plan those out and have those ready and which is, which has been, which has been great and then we'll get into the season.

Like he takes the, we play Friday Sundays, you know, he takes that Friday scout and, and he's got coach Willie with him.

And then last year I myself and Jake our, our other assistant, we had the Sunday scout.

So but in the non con we just depended on how the schedule sort of works out.

It's either all four of us if it's, you know, if we don't have like that two games in a weekend, it's like all four of us are locked in on one team and given our notes and our thoughts and that would be typically one where like I'd watch how to attack them from an offensive standpoint and coaches locked in on how to Guard them.

But and, and that's, and then our, our.

We had a shift.

So Jake Steckling, he took a high school girls head coaching job.

So we're down to three this year.

And so we're, we're, we're, we're working working through working through that.

Jake did a lot of our, our shot quality evaluation.

So I've been doing those in, in, in this segment of our, of our season.

And, and then we have, we're lucky enough to have.

We got a great group of, we call them apps, all purpose personnel, but they're essentially managers, student managers and they do a lot of stating for us.

They're doing live stating and practice for us right now.

And, but yeah, that's kind of the, the breakdown of our staff.

And then coach and I are the.

So coach and I are the only full time assistants and Coach Willie was a legendary high school head coaching or head coach here in St. Louis for a long time.

So he still got a job but he's basically semi retired.

I give him that.

But so we're out you know, Coach and I are, you know, we're out recruiting and doing all that good stuff and you know, spring summers and, and, and yeah, so that's sort of the, the breakdown of, of us.

Tell us a little bit about the UAA for people who aren't familiar with the league that you guys playing because it's pretty unique in terms of the major cities that the schools are located in and the way you guys have the schedule and the travel.

Just, just talk briefly about just what that experience was like for you going through that last year.

Yeah, it was, it was really interesting.

I was kind of, I was anticipating it to be, you know, like a sort of like built it up as like this huge challenge.

But we're, I mean we're flying and we're, I mean we're, you know, we're not flying charter, but we're, we're flying commercial and like, but we're going.

It is a, it's a whirlwind of a weekend.

It's so competitive and it's, it's like.

And people were telling me and I, I played actually played with the previous assistant, Luke Collins at Rhodes.

So he was kind of prepping me on.

He's like every, every week, every game feels like a tournament game.

And I'm like, well I never played in the tournament so I don't know what that feels like yet.

So for me it was a, it was a, it was a whirlwind, but it's it's so cool.

Like, it is just like it's going to.

You know, I'd never been in New York before, and so that was my first time there.

Not that I got to experience the city, but like, I was just like, I'm here, you're in New York.

You're theoretically in New York, right?

Yeah, I'm in there.

Yeah.

There's times squares nearby, but yeah, right.

But yeah, that, it was, it's just like looking back on those weekends.

You get home on Monday and are you getting there?

You get home on Sunday, but like you get there like Monday, you wake up and you feel like you just played.

Like, you know, I didn't do, I didn't play a minute and.

But you look at the mileage that you covered and it's, it's pretty surreal.

But I mean, just like the competitiveness of the elite, the coaching, the, the level of, of player, like the, the talent level is so, and that was like coming into our, our first practices at Washu, I, I was like, man, I haven't, like, I haven't been around like this level of talent.

Like, no offense to anybody, but like, it's just like it's, it's just very.

And the size, like the size of our guys, like how big and, and you know, skilled they are.

And then you go and you play, you know, you know, obviously NYU is incredible and, and Emory and you know, Chicago.

Like, like every, everybody going against like, they're.

No, no different.

We're all competing for the same kids and recruiting and, and then you see him up close and personal and it is like, it's a physical and it's, it's just really impressive basketball.

And so that was, I mean, that was, that was fun.

I mean that was, it was really fast for me.

But once things started to like, you know, once we got like halfway through conference play, I was like, okay.

Like, I feel like, you know, I can, I'm seeing the game.

It's not, it's not just blowing by me right now, right?

Yeah, but no, it's, it's really, you know, it's just, it's just really cool to go up against teams that, that have that, that number next to their, their name for sure.

Just, you know.

Absolutely.

And, and like you mentioned, like, you know, it's, there is a different energy from the fans, from the coaches, from the players of.

It's big time basketball.

So.

Yeah, it's a lot of, A lot of, a lot of fun and it's, that's for sure.

Very unique league in terms of the setup and the geography and the ability to fly in the Friday Sunday games and everything that goes along with that.

It's again, for anybody who hasn't checked it out and doesn't know that much about D3 basketball, starting in the UAA is not a bad place to start if you want to check out some, some really high quality Division 3 basketball.

So.

All right, well, Patrick, we're coming up on an hour and a half, so I want to ask you a final two part question.

So part one is when you look ahead over the next year or two, what do you see as being your biggest challenge?

And then the second part of the question, when you think about what you get to do every day as a college basketball coach, what brings you the most joy?

So your biggest challenge first and then your biggest joy.

My biggest challenge in the next two years, my mind immediately went to our team of, you know.

Right, of course.

Yeah, exactly.

That's where I expected it to go.

So for our, like, for our team, it's, it's really, our biggest challenge is really exciting for I think from a coaching standpoint.

And we, we graduated Hayden Doyle and Drake Kins Vader.

We were Hayden's bona fide All American and all Conference, you know, for four years and was a staple for us.

And then Drake was, you know, essentially like he was an All American, All American talent and was, did so many intangible things and just, and was just an extreme.

I mean he had, I think he had the best performance I ever saw live was in the elite eight against lacrosse and like 32 and 11 and was just incredible.

And so like those, like they're our two leading scorers and, and now like we return a lot of guys that are like, that are just different than those like we have a ton of talent.

And the fun thing is like, especially from an offensive standpoint, like you lose your top two leading scores, your first thing is like how, like how do we make up that productivity?

And that's the exciting thing for us right now is like we, I think we get to do it in a way that's different than we had to do it before.

And what is that?

And like, and we're like working through it right now.

We got, you know, coach and I just, I just came, I just got back at 2am yesterday for.

I did a whole tour of college practices in the Memphis area this weekend and getting new ideas and pulling from teams and he did, he went to Mizzou and Illinois and Purdue and we're all.

We came together today and it's like, how can we.

How can we help our group?

Like, we have so, so many great pieces.

How can we help this group be successful as soon as possible?

So that's the biggest challenge of.

In the next year is like, what is.

You know, what is our offense look like to.

To give our group the best chance to.

To make a run like we did last year.

Yeah.

And.

And so.

And then I.

Sorry, I forgot what your second question.

Oh, what's the biggest joy?

Biggest joy?

The biggest joy.

The.

Our guys.

I, like, our guys are the best.

Like, and I, I know everybody probably says that, but.

But are like the, the people that we have.

And this would be my biggest advice to like, any like, assistant coaches out there is, you know, I think we all get caught up in the rat race of.

Of trying to get a job that's going to set you up for the next job.

And, and, you know, and you're not, like, you're not thinking about anything else than that.

And it's like finding really good people and you guys, like, find really good people that are.

That are good at what they do or that.

That have.

That are about the right stuff and just hang on to them, like, and, and stay with them because you'll figure it out.

Like, you.

You gotta be around really great people.

And that's.

And.

And like our.

Our staff at Washu and our player, like, that just feeds in.

Like, it starts with.

With Coach Yam and then it feeds into, you know, who he hires and who he recruits and.

And it just permeates throughout our whole program.

I mean, I, I really like the energy of our group.

Like, there's.

They're such impressive people.

And like, one thing that I'm, like, learning more this year is like, I think assistant, like, the word friend is kind of taboo and coaching is like, oh, well, he wants to be friends with his players and.

Or like, and.

And I think that's, like, I think that might be misguided.

Like, I think friend is a.

And is a extremely, like, valuable and heavy work.

Right.

Like, if I'm friends with you, like, we.

We love each other.

We're loyal to each other.

You know, we are.

You know, and, And I'm gonna hold you accountable.

I'm gonna confront you when you're, you know, doing stuff wrong or when you, when you're, you know, not living up to your potential.

And then I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be with you in the hard times and the great times and so like I, I truly like this group that I'm with and and is like they're my friends and like, and that's, that brings me a lot of joy and, and it's just I, I, I get so like I ran into a couple guys like walking into work today and I was like that was the best part of my day.

Like, I didn't, I, you don't see your guy, you get caught up, you get in the office, you're watching film, you're doing all the other stuff and you, you might go a day without seeing your guys and like the random run ins and you know, see him at practice or whatever it may be is, is just, is the best.

So feel you man.

I can hear it in your voice that the connection that you have with your players and the impact that you get to have because of that connection, because of that.

There's nothing better than that.

It really, it really makes a huge difference.

It really makes a huge difference.

All right, before we get out, I want to give you a chance to share how can people connect with you?

Find out more about, find out more about you, your program.

Just go ahead and share website, whatever you got.

We'll go from there.

Yeah, my email is, it's McGrail.

My last name McGr A I L at WOL.

It's WL Edu.

So any, any coaches, you know, anybody that wants to reach out, pick my brain, you know, say that I was bad on a podcast, I'll take some criticism or you know, wants to come to a practice or you know, if you're stopping by for, for one of our games, we'd love to love to have you, love to connect and, and yeah, you know, again I mentioned I was going to practices this weekend so would, would love to anybody that wants to come see what we do, we would be more than happy to host that.

And yeah, I'm, I'm on Twitter Twitter, Instagram PT McGrail@13:13 Our WashU account Wash you.

Yeah we're wash UMBB on on Twitter and, and Instagram you can you know, stay up to date with, with all, all the stuff we got going on from scheduling to what our guys, what our guys are up to and, and what's going on with our program there.

So, but yeah, and wash you bears.

WashU bears.com for for all things Washu, you know, we have some, we had unbelievable teams.

I think all of our fall sports teams are in the top 10, which is, I mean, you know, just being around being around greatness all the time is is is is pretty sweet.

So so check out all of our all 19 of our sports are for doing great things.

So but yeah, there you go.

Thank you for jumping on with us tonight.

Really appreciate it.

And to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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